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On June 02 2024 21:24 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote:
Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
Maru (Comm 92, Pro 94) whereas:
Serral 96, herO 96, Clem 97
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru? Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level.
Is it?
Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that.
For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score?
Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
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United States1916 Posts
On June 02 2024 21:42 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2024 21:24 Poopi wrote:On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote:
Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
Maru (Comm 92, Pro 94) whereas:
Serral 96, herO 96, Clem 97
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru? Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level. Is it? Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that. For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score? Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
They're not biased, they just don't agree with you.
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On June 02 2024 21:42 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2024 21:24 Poopi wrote:On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote:
Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
Maru (Comm 92, Pro 94) whereas:
Serral 96, herO 96, Clem 97
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru? Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level. Is it? Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that. For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score? Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
To be fair, Oliveira's results the past six months have been pretty bad and his score justified. If he was playing like he is now, all his scores would be 90+.
Prior to this I wouldn't even say like he had been at his normal Oliveira level
Well yeah, and like Mizenhauer says, I don't really know what you mean by "biased" regarding Maru's weaker micro score. It's clearly not race-focused because Clem is above him (and has the highest?) It's also not korean-focused because herO is above him. It's just people have a different opinion. If you just mean people are underrating Oliveira, well that's probably been true his whole career until he won Katowice.
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On June 02 2024 21:42 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2024 21:24 Poopi wrote:On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote:
Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
Maru (Comm 92, Pro 94) whereas:
Serral 96, herO 96, Clem 97
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru? Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level. Is it? Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that. For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score? Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
I don't know why Serral is given such a high micro score. I do think around a 90 for Maru is fair. I'd rank Reynor over Serral for micro. And Clem and Byun over Maru for micro.
I think the difference between Oliveira and Reynor's micro was quite evident in their use of spellcasters in game 2 yesterday, with Reynor continuously getting better use of his vipers than Oliveira did of his ghosts, despite Reynor only having a few vipers and Oliveira cranking out dozens of ghosts. Reynor lost the match on decision-making, which was seriously off in games 1 and 4.
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On June 02 2024 21:55 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2024 21:42 goldensail wrote:On June 02 2024 21:24 Poopi wrote:On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote:
Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
Maru (Comm 92, Pro 94) whereas:
Serral 96, herO 96, Clem 97
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru? Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level. Is it? Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that. For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score? Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias. I don't know why Serral is given such a high micro score. I do think around a 90 for Maru is fair. I'd rank Reynor over Serral for micro. And Clem and Byun over Maru for micro. I think the difference between Oliveira and Reynor's micro was quite evident in their use of spellcasters in game 2 yesterday, with Reynor continuously getting better use of his vipers than Oliveira did of his ghosts, despite Reynor only having a few vipers and Oliveira cranking out dozens of ghosts. Reynor lost the match on decision-making, which was seriously off in games 1 and 4.
Why don't you think Serral should get a great micro score? When have you ever really seen him make a micro mistake (big mine hit, mess up army control, e.g.)? It's the opposite, he has the best Zerg spellcaster control, is ridiculously good at dodging mine or disruptor hits. And generally speaking I don't think any Zerg is better at army positioning/engagements then him, at least for a Zerg.
I don't think there's anything really that Reynor does better with his units over Serral, other than being faster (and that's close and probably not true now).
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On June 02 2024 21:59 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2024 21:55 Acrofales wrote:On June 02 2024 21:42 goldensail wrote:On June 02 2024 21:24 Poopi wrote:On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote:
Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
Maru (Comm 92, Pro 94) whereas:
Serral 96, herO 96, Clem 97
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru? Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level. Is it? Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that. For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score? Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias. I don't know why Serral is given such a high micro score. I do think around a 90 for Maru is fair. I'd rank Reynor over Serral for micro. And Clem and Byun over Maru for micro. I think the difference between Oliveira and Reynor's micro was quite evident in their use of spellcasters in game 2 yesterday, with Reynor continuously getting better use of his vipers than Oliveira did of his ghosts, despite Reynor only having a few vipers and Oliveira cranking out dozens of ghosts. Reynor lost the match on decision-making, which was seriously off in games 1 and 4. Why don't you think Serral should get a great micro score? When have you ever really seen him make a micro mistake (big mine hit, mess up army control, e.g.)? It's the opposite, he has the best Zerg spellcaster control, is ridiculously good at dodging mine or disruptor hits. And generally speaking I don't think any Zerg is better at army positioning/engagements then him, at least for a Zerg. I don't think there's anything really that Reynor does better with his units over Serral, other than being faster (and that's close and probably not true now).
I think there are 2 separate categories, spellcaster/army control and micro. Micro is the tricks and mimics you fo with your units, spellcasting usage and army usage is not considered micro. I agree is a bit fuzzy, but if army control and spellcasting control were assigned to micro, then Maru would have better micro than ByuN and Clem.. by far!.Yet he doesn't because people calls micro to other types of unit control. Under that micro definition, Serral doesnt have great micro, or at least he doesnt show it as much.
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Northern Ireland26408 Posts
On June 02 2024 21:55 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2024 21:42 goldensail wrote:On June 02 2024 21:24 Poopi wrote:On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote:
Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
Maru (Comm 92, Pro 94) whereas:
Serral 96, herO 96, Clem 97
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru? Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level. Is it? Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that. For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score? Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias. I don't know why Serral is given such a high micro score. I do think around a 90 for Maru is fair. I'd rank Reynor over Serral for micro. And Clem and Byun over Maru for micro. I think the difference between Oliveira and Reynor's micro was quite evident in their use of spellcasters in game 2 yesterday, with Reynor continuously getting better use of his vipers than Oliveira did of his ghosts, despite Reynor only having a few vipers and Oliveira cranking out dozens of ghosts. Reynor lost the match on decision-making, which was seriously off in games 1 and 4.
His micro is top-tier it’s just the rest of his game is so good one doesn’t perhaps notice it so much. Despite it being his relative weakest matchup he’s still a top-notch ZvZ player and you can’t really be that without damn solid micro, plus he almost always engages well in the other matchups
Personally I think it’s probably fatigue that contributes to wonky ratings anyway.
Give me 5 players to rate across multiple stats and I’ll spend a decent amount of time properly pondering it, accurately as I can.
Gimme like 30 to do and I don’t think I could be arsed. I might go ‘oh no I gave x player 98 in a category and now I’m realising there’s 3-4 players I’d rate higher, but I’ve little room to manouevre now.’
I’m either left redoing some of my baselines and my entire list, or just saying ‘fuck it, it’s just for a bit of fun fluff content anyway’, and I imagine many will go the latter.
Wouldn’t read too much into it.
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United States1916 Posts
On June 02 2024 21:50 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2024 21:42 goldensail wrote:On June 02 2024 21:24 Poopi wrote:On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote:
Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
Maru (Comm 92, Pro 94) whereas:
Serral 96, herO 96, Clem 97
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru? Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level. Is it? Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that. For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score? Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias. To be fair, Oliveira's results the past six months have been pretty bad and his score justified. If he was playing like he is now, all his scores would be 90+. Prior to this I wouldn't even say like he had been at his normal Oliveira level Well yeah, and like Mizenhauer says, I don't really know what you mean by "biased" regarding Maru's weaker micro score. It's clearly not race-focused because Clem is above him (and has the highest?) It's also not korean-focused because herO is above him. It's just people have a different opinion. If you just mean people are underrating Oliveira, well that's probably been true his whole career until he won Katowice.
As opposed to expecting nothing of him for the 9 years he played prior to winning said event.
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On June 02 2024 22:22 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2024 21:59 Pandain wrote:On June 02 2024 21:55 Acrofales wrote:On June 02 2024 21:42 goldensail wrote:On June 02 2024 21:24 Poopi wrote:On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote:
Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
Maru (Comm 92, Pro 94) whereas:
Serral 96, herO 96, Clem 97
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru? Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level. Is it? Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that. For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score? Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias. I don't know why Serral is given such a high micro score. I do think around a 90 for Maru is fair. I'd rank Reynor over Serral for micro. And Clem and Byun over Maru for micro. I think the difference between Oliveira and Reynor's micro was quite evident in their use of spellcasters in game 2 yesterday, with Reynor continuously getting better use of his vipers than Oliveira did of his ghosts, despite Reynor only having a few vipers and Oliveira cranking out dozens of ghosts. Reynor lost the match on decision-making, which was seriously off in games 1 and 4. Why don't you think Serral should get a great micro score? When have you ever really seen him make a micro mistake (big mine hit, mess up army control, e.g.)? It's the opposite, he has the best Zerg spellcaster control, is ridiculously good at dodging mine or disruptor hits. And generally speaking I don't think any Zerg is better at army positioning/engagements then him, at least for a Zerg. I don't think there's anything really that Reynor does better with his units over Serral, other than being faster (and that's close and probably not true now). I think there are 2 separate categories, spellcaster/army control and micro. Micro is the tricks and mimics you fo with your units, spellcasting usage and army usage is not considered micro. I agree is a bit fuzzy, but if army control and spellcasting control were assigned to micro, then Maru would have better micro than ByuN and Clem.. by far!.Yet he doesn't because people calls micro to other types of unit control. Under that micro definition, Serral doesnt have great micro, or at least he doesnt show it as much.
Fair points by you and Wombat.
On June 02 2024 22:41 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2024 21:50 Pandain wrote:On June 02 2024 21:42 goldensail wrote:On June 02 2024 21:24 Poopi wrote:On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote:
Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
Maru (Comm 92, Pro 94) whereas:
Serral 96, herO 96, Clem 97
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru? Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level. Is it? Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that. For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score? Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias. To be fair, Oliveira's results the past six months have been pretty bad and his score justified. If he was playing like he is now, all his scores would be 90+. Prior to this I wouldn't even say like he had been at his normal Oliveira level Well yeah, and like Mizenhauer says, I don't really know what you mean by "biased" regarding Maru's weaker micro score. It's clearly not race-focused because Clem is above him (and has the highest?) It's also not korean-focused because herO is above him. It's just people have a different opinion. If you just mean people are underrating Oliveira, well that's probably been true his whole career until he won Katowice. As opposed to expecting nothing of him for the 9 years he played prior to winning said event.
Well I mean I think it's fair to believe since he's been in the Chinese scene he may not have gotten a clear and constant recognition from the community that he's been the third (and sometimes second) best foreign Terran for probably 7 years now.
But you're right I think it's also fair to say he had been rightfully placed for years at "extremely good Terran who at his very best can put the S-tier players to a good series, but not really win" - and only recently has that last clause changed.
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Northern Ireland26408 Posts
On June 02 2024 23:27 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2024 22:22 Argonauta wrote:On June 02 2024 21:59 Pandain wrote:On June 02 2024 21:55 Acrofales wrote:On June 02 2024 21:42 goldensail wrote:On June 02 2024 21:24 Poopi wrote:On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote:
Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
Maru (Comm 92, Pro 94) whereas:
Serral 96, herO 96, Clem 97
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru? Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level. Is it? Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that. For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score? Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias. I don't know why Serral is given such a high micro score. I do think around a 90 for Maru is fair. I'd rank Reynor over Serral for micro. And Clem and Byun over Maru for micro. I think the difference between Oliveira and Reynor's micro was quite evident in their use of spellcasters in game 2 yesterday, with Reynor continuously getting better use of his vipers than Oliveira did of his ghosts, despite Reynor only having a few vipers and Oliveira cranking out dozens of ghosts. Reynor lost the match on decision-making, which was seriously off in games 1 and 4. Why don't you think Serral should get a great micro score? When have you ever really seen him make a micro mistake (big mine hit, mess up army control, e.g.)? It's the opposite, he has the best Zerg spellcaster control, is ridiculously good at dodging mine or disruptor hits. And generally speaking I don't think any Zerg is better at army positioning/engagements then him, at least for a Zerg. I don't think there's anything really that Reynor does better with his units over Serral, other than being faster (and that's close and probably not true now). I think there are 2 separate categories, spellcaster/army control and micro. Micro is the tricks and mimics you fo with your units, spellcasting usage and army usage is not considered micro. I agree is a bit fuzzy, but if army control and spellcasting control were assigned to micro, then Maru would have better micro than ByuN and Clem.. by far!.Yet he doesn't because people calls micro to other types of unit control. Under that micro definition, Serral doesnt have great micro, or at least he doesnt show it as much. Fair points by you and Wombat. Show nested quote +On June 02 2024 22:41 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 02 2024 21:50 Pandain wrote:On June 02 2024 21:42 goldensail wrote:On June 02 2024 21:24 Poopi wrote:On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote:
Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
Maru (Comm 92, Pro 94) whereas:
Serral 96, herO 96, Clem 97
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru? Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level. Is it? Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that. For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score? Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias. To be fair, Oliveira's results the past six months have been pretty bad and his score justified. If he was playing like he is now, all his scores would be 90+. Prior to this I wouldn't even say like he had been at his normal Oliveira level Well yeah, and like Mizenhauer says, I don't really know what you mean by "biased" regarding Maru's weaker micro score. It's clearly not race-focused because Clem is above him (and has the highest?) It's also not korean-focused because herO is above him. It's just people have a different opinion. If you just mean people are underrating Oliveira, well that's probably been true his whole career until he won Katowice. As opposed to expecting nothing of him for the 9 years he played prior to winning said event. Well I mean I think it's fair to believe since he's been in the Chinese scene he may not have gotten a clear and constant recognition from the community that he's been the third (and sometimes second) best foreign Terran for probably 7 years now. But you're right I think it's also fair to say he had been rightfully placed for years at "extremely good Terran who at his very best can put the S-tier players to a good series, but not really win" - and only recently has that last clause changed.
Pretty much, if Oliveira had won a bunch of WCS events and then had a great weekend to win a WC then I think perception would be rather different, it’s got little to do with him being a Chinese player.
He’s historically been quite like Heromarine or Showtime, he’ll beat players he’s expected to beat consistently, he’ll show good games against those he’s not and lose more often than not, although take the occasional scalp.
He’s obviously an excellent player but he’s a clear A class player who can have a great tournament rather than a consistent S class one. Which really doesn’t put him in bad company, I’d stick a player like Gumiho or Ragnarok in there and they’re obviously quality players. You don’t have to be a Serral or a Maru to be a great player
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On June 02 2024 21:44 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2024 21:42 goldensail wrote:On June 02 2024 21:24 Poopi wrote:On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote:
Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
Maru (Comm 92, Pro 94) whereas:
Serral 96, herO 96, Clem 97
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru? Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level. Is it? Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that. For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score? Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias. They're not biased, they just don't agree with you.
According to the player cards:
Reynor
OVR 90
ATK 91
DEF 85
STR 83
SPD 96
MAC 93
MIC 92
OLIVEIRA
OVR 82
ATK 85
DEF 78
STR 81
SPED 83
MAC 82
MIC 83
At least in recent years, Oli's speed is actually quite good (think about in G1 how well he dealt with the nydus threats), micro is just fine (e.g. he can stand largely toe-to-toe against any Terran in early skirmishes), macro is also quite decent (observe how quickly he pumps out units). There's no objective way to justify 96/92/93 in these metrics for Reynor and 83/83/82 for him. If there's no bias, how do you explain this discrepancy?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying as a result of one match Oli is overall a better player than Reynor, I'm saying because people consider Oli a weaker player, they rate him much lower than he deserves at least in some of the metrics, and that's bias.
Just to remind everyone what we're debating - I was saying pros' opinion are subject to bias just like the rest of us. The opposite side would be "pros are completely objective, free of bias". Think about which argument makes more sense to you.
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Northern Ireland26408 Posts
These pros have been playing these players for the last year+ in weeklies and big tournaments, it’s just their perception.
Oliveira hasn’t done a huge amount for a while, even in weeklies so why would they rate some theoretical high versus what they’ve been facing week in, week out?
Of course there’s some bias, there always will be.
It’s the pro’s appraisal of where they think Oliveira currently stands, not his theoretical peak
Reynor’s had similar struggles in the past year and is somewhat slumping, often due to bad decisions. The one thing that’s still there regardless is his speed, he’s still probably the outright fastest player out there. Sometimes it works, sometimes (and more often lately) not, but regardless he’s an incredibly fast player. Probably THE fastest in the scene
So giving him a high rating there despite him slumping is perfectly reasonable, the speed is still obviously there just maybe his brain isn’t keeping up
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On June 03 2024 00:11 WombaT wrote:
These pros have been playing these players for the last year+ in weeklies and big tournaments, it’s just their perception.
Oliveira hasn’t done a huge amount for a while, even in weeklies so why would they rate some theoretical high versus what they’ve been facing week in, week out?
Of course there’s some bias, there always will be.
It’s the pro’s appraisal of where they think Oliveira currently stands, not his theoretical peak
Reynor’s had similar struggles in the past year and is somewhat slumping, often due to bad decisions. The one thing that’s still there regardless is his speed, he’s still probably the outright fastest player out there. Sometimes it works, sometimes (and more often lately) not, but regardless he’s an incredibly fast player. Probably THE fastest in the scene
So giving him a high rating there despite him slumping is perfectly reasonable, the speed is still obviously there just maybe his brain isn’t keeping up
What I'm saying is, what's missing for Oli isn't speed, micro, or macro and it hasn't been for at least a few years (rather it's the strategy/tactics and the ability to adapt based on how a game is going that usually prevent him from reaching the very top of the ladder). That should've been known to fellow pros even before Dallas.
Anyway, "Of course there’s some bias, there always will be." is good enough for me.
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cough cough;....
whos the GOAT again? Serral?? Oh, no, he doesnt have a GSL :'(
(sorry, Miz, i just couldnt contain myself hahaha)
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I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
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On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote:
I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!!
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On June 03 2024 06:41 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote:
I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point. If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!!
It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to.
Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
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On June 03 2024 06:44 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 06:41 Locutos wrote:On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote:
I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point. If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!! It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to. Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
Its shameful for Maru?
He isnt supposed to be anything. Ive never heard him boasting to be the GOAT.
I defend Serral as GOAT. But that posture of yours is irrational, and possibly toxic.
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On June 03 2024 06:48 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 06:44 imData wrote:On June 03 2024 06:41 Locutos wrote:On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote:
I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point. If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!! It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to. Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago. Its shameful for Maru? He isnt supposed to be anything. Ive never heard him boasting to be the GOAT. I defend Serral as GOAT. But that posture of yours is irrational, and possibly toxic.
Maru is not defining himself as the GOAT. When did I say that? What are you even about?
But some people are clearly convinced he is above Serral on that point and I'd like them to explain themselves that's all.
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On June 03 2024 06:52 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 06:48 Locutos wrote:On June 03 2024 06:44 imData wrote:On June 03 2024 06:41 Locutos wrote:On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote:
I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point. If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!! It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to. Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago. Its shameful for Maru? He isnt supposed to be anything. Ive never heard him boasting to be the GOAT. I defend Serral as GOAT. But that posture of yours is irrational, and possibly toxic. Maru is not defining himself as the GOAT. When did I say that? What are you even about? But some people are clearly convinced he is above Serral on that point and I'd like them to explain themselves that's all.
I know you didnt say that.
What im trying to show you is that the only situation that Maru could possibly have any reason to be ashamed for his results is if he was about boasting that.
But he doesnt.
There's absolutely no reasont to have this kinda post: "This is just shameful for him at this point."
You're mad at people who rate Maru above Serral, but pointing your criticism at Maru.
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EPT
