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On June 03 2024 06:44 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 06:41 Locutos wrote:On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote:
I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point. If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!! It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to. Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
I think you are way out of line with these comments towards Maru. It's absolutely not shameful to lose against someone who just played better. Both played their best and reached the final beating everyone else, where ultimately one guy won and both players beated multiple champions to reach the final. If that is shameful how should average John Doe feel?
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On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote:
I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
Losing in a finals to the best player in the world is not shameful. And even if I think that evaluation of the player he lost to is painfully obvious at this point, disagreeing is also not shameful.
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Maru does not need to be ashamed in any way, shape or form. Dude has a pretty stellar 2024 so far, reaching the Finals of every offline event he attended, winning GSL and StarsWars.
He is just suffering from the combination of Serral being better than him, in an unwordly form right now and he has Marus number. Something Serral does just works against Maru. Serral suffered through that with Reynor especially I think. Tough for Maru that his nemesis happens to be the guy that also rarely gets beaten...or never as of right now
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On June 03 2024 09:21 Balnazza wrote:
Maru does not need to be ashamed in any way, shape or form. Dude has a pretty stellar 2024 so far, reaching the Finals of every offline event he attended, winning GSL and StarsWars.
He is just suffering from the combination of Serral being better than him, in an unwordly form right now and he has Marus number. Something Serral does just works against Maru. Serral suffered through that with Reynor especially I think. Tough for Maru that his nemesis happens to be the guy that also rarely gets beaten...or never as of right now
If Serral did not exist we'd be calling Maru a bonjwa right now, having likely had won 4 straight premier tournaments.
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On June 03 2024 06:44 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 06:41 Locutos wrote:On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote:
I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point. If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!! It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to. Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
Funny these kind of whining only comes out when Serral stomps Maru
Did you put the same energy when Maru stomped dark in the same tournament
FYI, Maru is a tier below Serral, so it’s no surprise losing to goat serral
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On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote:
I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
Probably because the majority of Maru's case is from the last decade whereas Serral's case is his dominance this decade (and the tail end of last).
Like nobody is arguing that Serral isn't better than Maru right now, literally nobody. The discussion is about who is the greatest of all time. And it's down to the individual if Serral's current dominance has more weight than not having been good during SC2's peak competitive scene.
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looks like another civil war in tl.net lmao
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On June 03 2024 06:44 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 06:41 Locutos wrote:On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote:
I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point. If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!! It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to. Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
If we follow this logic, then every SC2 pro except Serral should be ashamed of him/herself.
I promised myself I won't argue with idiots but I'll make a special exception for you.
User was warned for this post
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Maru is only claimed to be the GOAT, because he has won many GSLs and it shouldn't be as highly considered after its prize pool dropped. They are on par with what were super tournaments. Meanwhile Serral just won double, in a tournament that has substantially more players in it.
Yes GSLs were prestigious and Maru won many of them, but the last 3 should not be weighted as heavily. I believe the ones with over $100,000 prize pools should be weighted more, since first place gets about 30k. 6 out of his 9 are considerable.
Meanwhile there is IEM which should be the heaviest rated tournament. Serral has won 4 while Maru has had 0. In fact, Maru loses to Serral in the finals for it to make it easier to figure out which player is better.
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France12788 Posts
On June 03 2024 06:44 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 06:41 Locutos wrote:On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote:
I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point. If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!! It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to. Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
How is it shameful to lose to someone who played better than you in a particular series?
Maru might have won if Oliveira beat Serral. Would that mean that Maru is still the best player in the world?
Or we call that bracket luck? But then, if Oliveira beat Serral, would have Serral been the best player in the world?
"Couldn't train as much as he's supposed to" -> I don't see how Serral is "supposed" to train "X" amount. Maybe it's in his contract (and even then you could argue it's just an agreement between 2 parties that he is free to break, as a human being), but usually at this level, the player / their coaches etc. know what is best for them in terms of training. Maybe he can't play much sc2 in the military, but he has time to shadow play? Maybe it was better for him not to think much about starcraft 2 for a few weeks, then come back with a fresh mind, talk to the other players, and come with a plan?
The finals being one-sided is unfortunate for the spectators, but the players don't owe us anything. The show was still great overall, at least from stream (good production casters etc), and it seemed great for the people there too.
So I agree with the kajtarp that these comments are a bit out of line.
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On June 03 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 09:21 Balnazza wrote:
Maru does not need to be ashamed in any way, shape or form. Dude has a pretty stellar 2024 so far, reaching the Finals of every offline event he attended, winning GSL and StarsWars.
He is just suffering from the combination of Serral being better than him, in an unwordly form right now and he has Marus number. Something Serral does just works against Maru. Serral suffered through that with Reynor especially I think. Tough for Maru that his nemesis happens to be the guy that also rarely gets beaten...or never as of right now If Serral did not exist we'd be calling Maru a bonjwa right now, having likely had won 4 straight premier tournaments.
But Serral does exist, and their head to head result is sufficient to let me say that Maru cannot be considered the GOAT
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I think we can all agree that even if serral is not the GOAT, he is indisputably the GOAT herder.
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France12788 Posts
Oliveira though...
Maru and Serral are kind of the "two gods" right now, where other players don't seem to be able to beat them.
In their head 2 head, Serral > Maru.
But Oliveira managed to defeat Maru in an important finals, and was very close to beating Serral there (albeit not as important). Is he the Leffen of Starcraft 2 (without the villain persona), being the first one to show others that the gods of Starcraft 2 are human too and can be beaten?
That's an interesting storyline imo
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On June 03 2024 18:42 Parser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote:On June 03 2024 09:21 Balnazza wrote:
Maru does not need to be ashamed in any way, shape or form. Dude has a pretty stellar 2024 so far, reaching the Finals of every offline event he attended, winning GSL and StarsWars.
He is just suffering from the combination of Serral being better than him, in an unwordly form right now and he has Marus number. Something Serral does just works against Maru. Serral suffered through that with Reynor especially I think. Tough for Maru that his nemesis happens to be the guy that also rarely gets beaten...or never as of right now If Serral did not exist we'd be calling Maru a bonjwa right now, having likely had won 4 straight premier tournaments. But Serral does exist, and their head to head result is sufficient to let me say that Maru cannot be considered the GOAT
Thank you for your affirmative statement. It's a shame nobody really cares about what you posit. H2h is one of very very many things to be considered in weighing greatness. Not the most important of those things. So Serral beating Maru twice in 2024 in a rather serious beatdown, is really just not that interesting when the argument for Maru's greatness has very little to do with his 2024 performance, which is still by all measures, the second-best player in the world by a decent margin.
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On June 03 2024 18:51 Poopi wrote:
Oliveira though...
Maru and Serral are kind of the "two gods" right now, where other players don't seem to be able to beat them.
In their head 2 head, Serral > Maru.
But Oliveira managed to defeat Maru in an important finals, and was very close to beating Serral there (albeit not as important). Is he the Leffen of Starcraft 2 (without the villain persona), being the first one to show others that the gods of Starcraft 2 are human too and can be beaten?
That's an interesting storyline imo
The only edge Oliveira has on Maru is sparring with Serral, it seems.
He knows what works best against the GOAT and, since he has a lot of practice against him, he doesnt flinch like Maru does.
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United States1847 Posts
On June 04 2024 01:59 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 18:51 Poopi wrote:
Oliveira though...
Maru and Serral are kind of the "two gods" right now, where other players don't seem to be able to beat them.
In their head 2 head, Serral > Maru.
But Oliveira managed to defeat Maru in an important finals, and was very close to beating Serral there (albeit not as important). Is he the Leffen of Starcraft 2 (without the villain persona), being the first one to show others that the gods of Starcraft 2 are human too and can be beaten?
That's an interesting storyline imo The only edge Oliveira has on Maru is sparring with Serral, it seems. He knows what works best against the GOAT and, since he has a lot of practice against him, he doesnt flinch like Maru does.
Styles make fights in a lot of 1v1 sports and Serral has solved Maru. It's at the point where Maru would have to completely overhaul how he plays if he wants to beat Serral. Given the current state of sc2 it is probably impossible,
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Northern Ireland25015 Posts
On June 04 2024 02:03 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2024 01:59 Locutos wrote:On June 03 2024 18:51 Poopi wrote:
Oliveira though...
Maru and Serral are kind of the "two gods" right now, where other players don't seem to be able to beat them.
In their head 2 head, Serral > Maru.
But Oliveira managed to defeat Maru in an important finals, and was very close to beating Serral there (albeit not as important). Is he the Leffen of Starcraft 2 (without the villain persona), being the first one to show others that the gods of Starcraft 2 are human too and can be beaten?
That's an interesting storyline imo The only edge Oliveira has on Maru is sparring with Serral, it seems. He knows what works best against the GOAT and, since he has a lot of practice against him, he doesnt flinch like Maru does. Styles make fights in a lot of 1v1 sports and Serral has solved Maru. It's at the point where Maru would have to completely overhaul how he plays if he wants to beat Serral. Given the current state of sc2 it is probably impossible,
Indeed, Rafael Nadal had a game almost tailor-made for Roger Federer, especially on clay.
To combat it Federer would have had to completely change as a player and become left-handed, which just isn’t something you can do at that level of competition
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On June 03 2024 06:44 imData wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 06:41 Locutos wrote:On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote:
I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point. If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!! It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to. Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
I understand advocating for your favorite player, but I find posts like these really distasteful. I'm sure Maru feels some level of angst that he can't bring the level of play he customarily displays to his series with Serral--you have no idea what goes on inside a player's head. While some posters don't argue in good faith with the GOAT discussions, which leads to hyperbolic posting in response, it baffles me when people attack a player (Maru or Serral) that has given this game and us thousands of hours of entertainment. It's a privilege to witness their insane talent, skill and dedication. Arguing with fans/forum heads is one thing, trying to cast shame on the second greatest or greatest player of all time is dumb.
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On June 04 2024 01:59 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 18:51 Poopi wrote:
Oliveira though...
Maru and Serral are kind of the "two gods" right now, where other players don't seem to be able to beat them.
In their head 2 head, Serral > Maru.
But Oliveira managed to defeat Maru in an important finals, and was very close to beating Serral there (albeit not as important). Is he the Leffen of Starcraft 2 (without the villain persona), being the first one to show others that the gods of Starcraft 2 are human too and can be beaten?
That's an interesting storyline imo The only edge Oliveira has on Maru is sparring with Serral, it seems. He knows what works best against the GOAT and, since he has a lot of practice against him, he doesnt flinch like Maru does.
He has the international tournament win edge, and a Katowice at that.
On June 04 2024 03:49 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2024 06:44 imData wrote:On June 03 2024 06:41 Locutos wrote:On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote:
I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point. If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!! It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to. Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago. I understand advocating for your favorite player, but I find posts like these really distasteful. I'm sure Maru feels some level of angst that he can't bring the level of play he customarily displays to his series with Serral--you have no idea what goes on inside a player's head. While some posters don't argue in good faith with the GOAT discussions, which leads to hyperbolic posting in response, it baffles me when people attack a player (Maru or Serral) that has given this game and us thousands of hours of entertainment. It's a privilege to witness their insane talent, skill and dedication. Arguing with fans/forum heads is one thing, trying to cast shame on the second greatest or greatest player of all time is dumb.
So we also couldn't cast shame on the second greatest player, if he lost to H-to-the-usky-Husky, wusky?
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Judgement shouldn't be cast in general, players should judge themselves, and spectators should celebrate achievements.
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EPT
