Sunday 18:30 CET () LB Finals - bo7 Bonyth vs Mihu
Grand Finals December 22, Sunday 18:30 CET ()
RO8 Maps pick All vetoes and map picks need to be made before the matches. The player with the higher ladder stage ranking can decide if they want to veto first or second. The order for vetoes is ABAB ABC for BO3 and AB ABABC for BO5.
Example of vetoes for the BO5 match: player A vetoes a map player B vetoes a map player A picks the first map player B picks the second map player A picks the third map player B picks the fourth map the remaining map will be played in the decider match Once all vetoes and mappicks are done you can start the matches.
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A season of inactive Sziky, dewalt, bonyth, and the comeback of dandy turning into a literal sleep in, is coming to an end.
Meanwhile the Chinese scene manages to keep 18-20 players playing the game full time and no foreigners are invited to their tournaments, while we have invited them for 5 years straight and spreading the little prize money we have even thinner.
The question is: how is this motivating for our players? Our community? Why can't we have showmatches or mini-tournaments between top placing BSL and CNSL players, that can be broadcasted to chinese viewers and co-financed by them, to satisfy our thirst to watch our best players vs theirs?
Inviting chinese players was pretty cool for some seasons, but it's becoming tiresome to watch the players we care the most about banging their head against the wall that is chinese players who live of playing this game.
We know that our top players can hang with them, but in the long run, when they can play full time and ours not, the playing field just isn't fair.
On December 16 2024 19:09 tanngard wrote: A season of inactive Sziky, dewalt, bonyth, and the comeback of dandy turning into a literal sleep in, is coming to an end.
Meanwhile the Chinese scene manages to keep 18-20 players playing the game full time and no foreigners are invited to their tournaments, while we have invited them for 5 years straight and spreading the little prize money we have even thinner.
The question is: how is this motivating for our players? Our community? Why can't we have showmatches or mini-tournaments between top placing BSL and CNSL players, that can be broadcasted to chinese viewers and co-financed by them, to satisfy our thirst to watch our best players vs theirs?
Inviting chinese players was pretty cool for some seasons, but it's becoming tiresome to watch the players we care the most about banging their head against the wall that is chinese players who live of playing this game.
We know that our top players can hang with them, but in the long run, when they can play full time and ours not, the playing field just isn't fair.
I was just waiting for this post to happen. Foreigner cant compete vs koreans, Foreigner cant compete vs chinese. Foreigner tired. Foreigner need more region lock. Foreigner cant train. Foreigner cant build scene. Who can take this shit seriously?
By the way: You are being negative. Thats an absolute NO-GO around here. EVERYTHING IS FINE!
I'm just stating that the playing field isn't fair. Please debate the facts and refrain from attacks if you want to discuss this seriously.
I Love BSL and the great work that zzero does and i have been a monthly contributor to both his patreon and twitch account for years on years. I used to be a big donator to BSL directly, but the motivation has faded when so much of that money goes into the pockets of chinese players that already have so much.
I think what the chinese does in their scene is great and i commend them for it. Don't know how they get so much prize money and donations or how many viewers there are, but clearly the foreigner scene dwarfs in comparison.
Where then is the fairness in our smaller scene donating money to a much bigger scene, but the money flow has never streamed the other way, 5 years into this project? I'm really glad that we have learned more and gotten to know about the players from China. But why not focus on showmatches and special tournaments where chinese audience also chip in an equal amount, instead of turning the bread and butter of the foreigner scene, that is BSL, into a weaker support mechanism for the foreigner eco-system as a whole. Where is the sense in that anymore? Don't you want the foreigners to be more competitive in the long run?
Don't have anything against Chinese players being in BSL. They're already dealing with more lag than they're used to, likely a pretty small prize pool, and having to play at night. Having them in BSL generally raises the competition level.
The problem with foreigner players being inactive, I think has less to do with introduction of Chinese players to BSL, and more to do with the scene being half dead and it becoming harder and harder to find any games, without resorting to VPN to find koreans.
As for being able to support our own pros full time...that isn't likely to happen while we have such low viewership. Hell, we probably have more people who'd want to go full time if given the chance, than people willing to support others in this.
On December 16 2024 19:09 tanngard wrote: A season of inactive Sziky, dewalt, bonyth, and the comeback of dandy turning into a literal sleep in, is coming to an end.
Meanwhile the Chinese scene manages to keep 18-20 players playing the game full time and no foreigners are invited to their tournaments, while we have invited them for 5 years straight and spreading the little prize money we have even thinner.
The question is: how is this motivating for our players? Our community? Why can't we have showmatches or mini-tournaments between top placing BSL and CNSL players, that can be broadcasted to chinese viewers and co-financed by them, to satisfy our thirst to watch our best players vs theirs?
Inviting chinese players was pretty cool for some seasons, but it's becoming tiresome to watch the players we care the most about banging their head against the wall that is chinese players who live of playing this game.
We know that our top players can hang with them, but in the long run, when they can play full time and ours not, the playing field just isn't fair.
I was just waiting for this post to happen. Foreigner cant compete vs koreans, Foreigner cant compete vs chinese. Foreigner tired. Foreigner need more region lock. Foreigner cant train. Foreigner cant build scene. Who can take this shit seriously?
By the way: You are being negative. Thats an absolute NO-GO around here. EVERYTHING IS FINE!
I'm just stating that the playing field isn't fair. Please debate the facts and refrain from attacks if you want to discuss this seriously.
I Love BSL and the great work that zzero does and i have been a monthly contributor to both his patreon and twitch account for years on years. I used to be a big donator to BSL directly, but the motivation has faded when so much of that money goes into the pockets of chinese players that already have so much.
I think what the chinese does in their scene is great and i commend them for it. Don't know how they get so much prize money and donations or how many viewers there are, but clearly the foreigner scene dwarfs in comparison.
Where then is the fairness in our smaller scene donating money to a much bigger scene, but the money flow has never streamed the other way, 5 years into this project? I'm really glad that we have learned more and gotten to know about the players from China. But why not focus on showmatches and special tournaments where chinese audience also chip in an equal amount, instead of turning the bread and butter of the foreigner scene, that is BSL, into a weaker support mechanism for the foreigner eco-system as a whole. Where is the sense in that anymore? Don't you want the foreigners to be more competitive in the long run?
I'm just stating that the playing field isn't fair.
What the fuck? Is the foreigner sanctioned or prohibited to create a proper pro scene? We are talking a couple of continents here. How is it not possible that foreigner creates a scene? As you stated: "SO MUCH SUPPORT! BSL DOING GREAT JOB!". And yet every BSL states the same: "BSL region locked because foreigner needs to improve". Quite sure this thing is listed for 10 years now. Cant find sponsors either. Exept this scetchy http://esport.fund/. Which hasnt been updated in 3 years. Can someone explain who or what finances this thing?
It seems you pretty much just want a shouting match at this point and i cant think of something more boring than that. So let me try one last time to have an actual discussion with you here.
Is starcraft more popular in China? I dont know, i dont have the numbers, but gathering from the money that the players are making over there im inclined to think that yes, its not impossible that a country with 1,3 billion people might have a considerable bigger audience for this game. After all, south korea, a country with 50 million people have more starcraft fans than the rest of of the world toghether. It's not as easy as to just say that south-america, north-america and europe combined should have as big a crowd of fans based on population alone. Like i said, if you have some facts to contribute to this discussion, im happy to hear about them. I would love to be educated about what i dont know.
Are the cinese fans more cordinated and engaged in supporting their scene? That might be and credit to them if its the case. But that doesn't help our players. That is why im saying that the playing field is unfair for them. We are donating prize money to chinese players and not the other way around since our players were never invited to CNSL. It's been going on for 5 years now. What is it about that which you dont understand?
On December 16 2024 23:13 Soulforged wrote: Don't have anything against Chinese players being in BSL. They're already dealing with more lag than they're used to, likely a pretty small prize pool, and having to play at night. Having them in BSL generally raises the competition level.
This summarizes Chinese players situations pretty well. Top players like Mihu and Zhanhun have a packed schedule with tournaments and spon matches. Despite some thoughts here that they "steal" the prize money from BSL, their ROI of attending BSL is actually pretty low. To give a concrete example, if they have a tournament at 2PM, playing in BSL until 5AM on the same day is definitely not going to help them, and the prize money they risk losing can be much bigger than BSL's.
Another top player Xiaoshuai simply chose not to participate due to the low ROI.
Well in the past the biggest foreigner tournament TSL didnt ban chineses from participating. If you remove chineses from the equation now then it will be like in the past Dewalt vs Bonyth every season. Dewalt play starcraft fulltime for the past 10 years. How do you think any foreigner will compete with that ? Specially these days that inflation is insane people need to work more. BSL declares who is the best player outside Korea. Right now Chineses are the best.
Now if ZZZero wanted to do a non Chinese non Korea tourney that is a different thing. He will need to ask for more funds ( He is strugling a lot to even get this BSL runing.) And the community most likely will not support it. But like i said u will get Bonyth vs Dewalt in every tourney anyway so that will get boring eventually.
Oystein Hosted a great tourney like 1 year ago with a great format good mappool and a decent prizepool. The problem ? It doesnt get any coverage. People just dont care. The community is super dead and only get some traction when there is some Drama.As sad as it is there is nothing going on for Foreigner Bw. I wonder if Artosis and Tasteless started to host tourneys that will change. At the end of the day i remember Jaeyun hosting those NA proleagues and baning everyone outside the US.I never heard about that thing either anymore.
It doesnt help that Dandy get ban from BSL cuz he fall sleep either. I remember Mihu also fallsleep vs Dewalt in a Final and he didnt get ban. He beat Dewalt after showing up late and if im not mistaken he donated part of the prizepool to the next season in good faith. Im pretty sure we can do better than ban the best Latin America player 2 seasons cuz he fall sleep.
We could talk about how to make BSL better but imo getting rid of quality players like the chineses that are not even competition for the koreans is not a good thing. (for the competitiviness aspect)
On December 17 2024 03:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Well in the past the biggest foreigner tournament TSL didnt ban chineses from participating. If you remove chineses from the equation now then it will be like in the past Dewalt vs Bonyth every season. Dewalt play starcraft fulltime for the past 10 years. How do you think any foreigner will compete with that ? Specially these days that inflation is insane people need to work more. BSL declares who is the best player outside Korea. Right now Chineses are the best.
Now if ZZZero wanted to do a non Chinese non Korea tourney that is a different thing. He will need to ask for more funds ( He is strugling a lot to even get this BSL runing.) And the community most likely will not support it. But like i said u will get Bonyth vs Dewalt in every tourney anyway so that will get boring eventually.
Oystein Hosted a great tourney like 1 year ago with a great format good mappool and a decent prizepool. The problem ? It doesnt get any coverage. People just dont care. The community is super dead and only get some traction when there is some Drama.As sad as it is there is nothing going on for Foreigner Bw. I wonder if Artosis and Tasteless started to host tourneys that will change. At the end of the day i remember Jaeyun hosting those NA proleagues and baning everyone outside the US.I never heard about that thing either anymore.
It doesnt help that Dandy get ban from BSL cuz he fall sleep either. I remember Mihu also fallsleep vs Dewalt in a Final and he didnt get ban. He beat Dewalt after showing up late and if im not mistaken he donated part of the prizepool to the next season in good faith. Im pretty sure we can do better than ban the best Latin America player 2 seasons cuz he fall sleep.
We could talk about how to make BSL better but imo getting rid of quality players like the chineses that are not even competition for the koreans is not a good thing. (for the competitiviness aspect)
lol even you man what is this :D TSL ? just no comment total different everything. What always Dewalt vs Bonyth if no Chinese? can u check how many times happend (1? ) BonythvsDewalt finel before Chinese players showed up, thy. Oystein hosted a great tourney yes but it was first time, do you think BSL 1 was better? t.t Basically in Latam there are many fan of starcraft still if i am not wrong Bonyth vs Terror final was the best (1100-1200 viewers). do you know on what latency play Latam vs Chinese ( sometimes tr16extra ) And currently with bad VPN even us ( eu ) with lag spikes. U cant comparated Dandy, Mihu not even close man. Dandy did it this many times ( wtih me example ) without said any SORRY, i mean its totally unaccaptable. ZZZero did a great job when invited Chinese player ( i was agree with that those times ) Right now everyone who is not a haters or enemys the BSL knows what should be done ( i dont say will be better, but i am sure will be not worse ) At least maybe will come back some good players, for play some fun.
On December 17 2024 03:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Well in the past the biggest foreigner tournament TSL didnt ban chineses from participating. If you remove chineses from the equation now then it will be like in the past Dewalt vs Bonyth every season. Dewalt play starcraft fulltime for the past 10 years. How do you think any foreigner will compete with that ? Specially these days that inflation is insane people need to work more. BSL declares who is the best player outside Korea. Right now Chineses are the best.
Now if ZZZero wanted to do a non Chinese non Korea tourney that is a different thing. He will need to ask for more funds ( He is strugling a lot to even get this BSL runing.) And the community most likely will not support it. But like i said u will get Bonyth vs Dewalt in every tourney anyway so that will get boring eventually.
Oystein Hosted a great tourney like 1 year ago with a great format good mappool and a decent prizepool. The problem ? It doesnt get any coverage. People just dont care. The community is super dead and only get some traction when there is some Drama.As sad as it is there is nothing going on for Foreigner Bw. I wonder if Artosis and Tasteless started to host tourneys that will change. At the end of the day i remember Jaeyun hosting those NA proleagues and baning everyone outside the US.I never heard about that thing either anymore.
It doesnt help that Dandy get ban from BSL cuz he fall sleep either. I remember Mihu also fallsleep vs Dewalt in a Final and he didnt get ban. He beat Dewalt after showing up late and if im not mistaken he donated part of the prizepool to the next season in good faith. Im pretty sure we can do better than ban the best Latin America player 2 seasons cuz he fall sleep.
We could talk about how to make BSL better but imo getting rid of quality players like the chineses that are not even competition for the koreans is not a good thing. (for the competitiviness aspect)
I know at least one person who plays bw, but refuse to participate in BSL, idk why, probably he doesn't care, you right.
But in fact there are a lot of people who care.
There are only 3 paths to support BSL: - Watch and enjoy the games if you are a viewer - Take part in BSL and enjoy if you are a player - Contribute to BSL and enjoy if you want to be a sponsor/contributor
The only issues are: 1. Lag between long distanced players -> there are no solutions, just leave it. 2. Unfair practice advantages for some players -> dewalt + some NA players has good connection with KR + most of the chinese players have great connection with KR. -> there are no solutions, good for them, leave it.
I would personally prefer to play only TR 24 low in BSL, but that is not possible (or is it?)
On December 17 2024 03:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Well in the past the biggest foreigner tournament TSL didnt ban chineses from participating. If you remove chineses from the equation now then it will be like in the past Dewalt vs Bonyth every season. Dewalt play starcraft fulltime for the past 10 years. How do you think any foreigner will compete with that ? Specially these days that inflation is insane people need to work more. BSL declares who is the best player outside Korea. Right now Chineses are the best.
Now if ZZZero wanted to do a non Chinese non Korea tourney that is a different thing. He will need to ask for more funds ( He is strugling a lot to even get this BSL runing.) And the community most likely will not support it. But like i said u will get Bonyth vs Dewalt in every tourney anyway so that will get boring eventually.
Oystein Hosted a great tourney like 1 year ago with a great format good mappool and a decent prizepool. The problem ? It doesnt get any coverage. People just dont care. The community is super dead and only get some traction when there is some Drama.As sad as it is there is nothing going on for Foreigner Bw. I wonder if Artosis and Tasteless started to host tourneys that will change. At the end of the day i remember Jaeyun hosting those NA proleagues and baning everyone outside the US.I never heard about that thing either anymore.
It doesnt help that Dandy get ban from BSL cuz he fall sleep either. I remember Mihu also fallsleep vs Dewalt in a Final and he didnt get ban. He beat Dewalt after showing up late and if im not mistaken he donated part of the prizepool to the next season in good faith. Im pretty sure we can do better than ban the best Latin America player 2 seasons cuz he fall sleep.
We could talk about how to make BSL better but imo getting rid of quality players like the chineses that are not even competition for the koreans is not a good thing. (for the competitiviness aspect)
I know at least one person who plays bw, but refuse to participate in BSL, idk why, probably he doesn't care, you right.
But in fact there are a lot of people who care.
There are only 3 paths to support BSL: - Watch and enjoy the games if you are a viewer - Take part in BSL and enjoy if you are a player - Contribute to BSL and enjoy if you want to be a sponsor/contributor
The only issues are: 1. Lag between long distanced players -> there are no solutions, just leave it. 2. Unfair practice advantages for some players -> dewalt + some NA players has good connection with KR + most of the chinese players have great connection with KR. -> there are no solutions, good for them, leave it.
I would personally prefer to play only TR 24 low in BSL, but that is not possible (or is it?)
I know at least one person who plays bw, but refuse to participate in BSL, idk why, probably he doesn't care, you right. Do you mean do you know people that dont play BSL cuz chineses are participating ? i imagine that guy has to be extremely good to fight for top 4 otherwise why does he care ?
No one is talking about how to support BSL. ZZZero on every thread has countless links of how to support BSL.
And each season do you see the same patern. BSL finding issues to get funding.
Now is BSL having issues cuz of the chinese competition ? Or the lack of interest in seeing foreigners competing in starcraft ? I will talk for TL.net. They dont give a f*ck Look at that picture and see how dead every ZZZero thread is. 1 or 2 replies. Maybe a few more with Dandy getting hammered. And thats it.
Listen im not even sure i should be the one giving this takes. I dont play in BSL very often afterall. But i really doubt those great chinese players are making everyone to quit. Or maybe im wrong. But who knows cuz even the players taking part in BSL dont even talk about it. Apart from Sziky it seems.
I remember when Sziky dominated the foreigner scene winning almost every tourney. We were forced to improve and get better. But with Scan we basically blamed that he was korean and should not be playing in foreigner tours even if he was living in USA. He was far better than everyone true.
And that is the issue with foreigners. Is actually easier to blame now the chineses cuz they are performing better. Lets complain about lag sure. But when do you play a peruvian A rank with tr16 extra is not an issue at all .
That said for a competitive side of things the minimum turn rate u should play in is TR16 low. If you are losing at TR16 low dont waste time for a second thinking u could have won at tr24. You are just looking for excuses.
That said i was surprised to see how everyone on the twitch chat seemed to hate chineses playing it. Sadly Bonyth lost the series vs Mihu. But imagine he won. That would have been incredible and the chatters will be saying different things for sure.
On December 17 2024 03:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Well in the past the biggest foreigner tournament TSL didnt ban chineses from participating. If you remove chineses from the equation now then it will be like in the past Dewalt vs Bonyth every season. Dewalt play starcraft fulltime for the past 10 years. How do you think any foreigner will compete with that ? Specially these days that inflation is insane people need to work more. BSL declares who is the best player outside Korea. Right now Chineses are the best.
Now if ZZZero wanted to do a non Chinese non Korea tourney that is a different thing. He will need to ask for more funds ( He is strugling a lot to even get this BSL runing.) And the community most likely will not support it. But like i said u will get Bonyth vs Dewalt in every tourney anyway so that will get boring eventually.
Oystein Hosted a great tourney like 1 year ago with a great format good mappool and a decent prizepool. The problem ? It doesnt get any coverage. People just dont care. The community is super dead and only get some traction when there is some Drama.As sad as it is there is nothing going on for Foreigner Bw. I wonder if Artosis and Tasteless started to host tourneys that will change. At the end of the day i remember Jaeyun hosting those NA proleagues and baning everyone outside the US.I never heard about that thing either anymore.
It doesnt help that Dandy get ban from BSL cuz he fall sleep either. I remember Mihu also fallsleep vs Dewalt in a Final and he didnt get ban. He beat Dewalt after showing up late and if im not mistaken he donated part of the prizepool to the next season in good faith. Im pretty sure we can do better than ban the best Latin America player 2 seasons cuz he fall sleep.
We could talk about how to make BSL better but imo getting rid of quality players like the chineses that are not even competition for the koreans is not a good thing. (for the competitiviness aspect)
I know at least one person who plays bw, but refuse to participate in BSL, idk why, probably he doesn't care, you right.
But in fact there are a lot of people who care.
There are only 3 paths to support BSL: - Watch and enjoy the games if you are a viewer - Take part in BSL and enjoy if you are a player - Contribute to BSL and enjoy if you want to be a sponsor/contributor
The only issues are: 1. Lag between long distanced players -> there are no solutions, just leave it. 2. Unfair practice advantages for some players -> dewalt + some NA players has good connection with KR + most of the chinese players have great connection with KR. -> there are no solutions, good for them, leave it.
I would personally prefer to play only TR 24 low in BSL, but that is not possible (or is it?)
I know at least one person who plays bw, but refuse to participate in BSL, idk why, probably he doesn't care, you right. Do you mean do you know people that dont play BSL cuz chineses are participating ? i imagine that guy has to be extremely good to fight for top 4 otherwise why does he care ?
No one is talking about how to support BSL. ZZZero on every thread has countless links of how to support BSL.
And each season do you see the same patern. BSL finding issues to get funding.
Now is BSL having issues cuz of the chinese competition ? Or the lack of interest in seeing foreigners competing in starcraft ? I will talk for TL.net. They dont give a f*ck Look at that picture and see how dead every ZZZero thread is. 1 or 2 replies. Maybe a few more with Dandy getting hammered. And thats it.
Listen im not even sure i should be the one giving this takes. I dont play in BSL very often afterall. But i really doubt those great chinese players are making everyone to quit. Or maybe im wrong. But who knows cuz even the players taking part in BSL dont even talk about it. Apart from Sziky it seems.
I remember when Sziky dominated the foreigner scene winning almost every tourney. We were forced to improve and get better. But with Scan we basically blamed that he was korean and should not be playing in foreigner tours even if he was living in USA. He was far better than everyone true.
And that is the issue with foreigners. Is actually easier to blame now the chineses cuz they are performing better. Lets complain about lag sure. But when do you play a peruvian A rank with tr16 extra is not an issue at all .
That said for a competitive side of things the minimum turn rate u should play in is TR16 low. If you are losing at TR16 low dont waste time for a second thinking u could have won at tr24. You are just looking for excuses.
That said i was surprised to see how everyone on the twitch chat seemed to hate chineses playing it. Sadly Bonyth lost the series vs Mihu. But imagine he won. That would have been incredible and the chatters will be saying different things for sure.
This guy should believe in himself and push the fucking register button.
About funding: I don't see any issues here. BSL is going on.
And man, stop counting likes and viewers. That's not how things works. It is the same as to measure skill by APM in BW.
''I know at least one person who plays bw, but refuse to participate in BSL, idk why, probably he doesn't care, you right. Do you mean do you know people that dont play BSL cuz chineses are participating ? i imagine that guy has to be extremely good to fight for top 4 otherwise why does he care ?'' yes i know players( i hope they are will said something once more, because they are arleady did once.. ). ''And that is the issue with foreigners. Is actually easier to blame now the chineses cuz they are performing better. Lets complain about lag sure. But when do you play a peruvian A rank with tr16 extra is not an issue at all'' -Peru lag China lag not same!! i always play against example Terror,Dandy,Ultra tr16 low ( with little slow speed) or 12 low with normal speed. Against Chinese sometimes( in 1.5-2 years ago ) was good 16low with normal speed. Nowadays like last time tr16high with lag spikes against Zhanhun. was twice out the game because was unplayable .play in BSL man and u will be know more things because as i see you are not well informed ''And that is the issue with foreigners. Is actually easier to blame now the chineses cuz they are performing better. Lets complain about lag sure. But when do you play a peruvian A rank with tr16 extra is not an issue at all'' when we played tr16 extra against Peru? bring it here Scan what makes sense? you really dont understand how they are have good oportunity for practice and have so many tour ( if no BSL, do you think they are care about that ? ) This is an internet game of course depends a lot where are u living. You dont care about BSL i am sure after this what is okay just pls dont said non sense things especially '' And that is the issue with foreigners. Is actually easier to blame now the chineses cuz they are performing better'' because lets watch in the past when we had half oportunity for the practice than they ( soso VPN ). I have good results against them without any complaining. And what do you think when banned Dewalt in one Chinese tour because tr24high was ? And how the Chinese scene still not invited us a single tour? But just to clarify i dont play bw the last 2 years ( and i will not 90%) i mean only in tour. So basically i dont care. only where is the truth.
EPT
Bonyth vs 
Mihu![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/RawIO6l.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ZYuPbgn.png)
ZZZero
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