So I couldn't fit the full title I wanted because of the 50 character limit, but the title I wanted to post was, "I hope the balance council is preparing the final version of balance, before Blizzard stops making balance changes for SC2."
There may come a day when Blizzard will stop making balance changes for SC2 altogether. Each balance change requires a Blizzard employee(s) to accept the requests from the balance council, then make the changes, and then prepare server uploads. I am assuming there are no client patches, because if client patches are required, that means even more employees may be involved.
It's very possible that the person making the balance changes is not the same person that uploads the changes to the servers world wide. So that's likely at least 2 people involved. And I am being charitable here. Each balance update actually might involve more than two people, it could involve several people, or even more than that.
The point is, Blizzard doesn't make money off of SC2 anymore. Even though it's inexpensive for Blizzard to have their employees make the balance changes for SC2 and upload the balance changes across the servers, there may come one day when Blizzard decides even that small expense isn't worth it. I think this day draws even closer now, with ESL discontinuing the pro tour of SC2.
The last thing the SC2 community and the pro scene want should that day come, is for the balance to be "in flux" because the balance council had an end goal in mind, but couldn't get to their end goal because Blizzard suddenly stopped balance changes for SC2. I don't think any of us want to see the final balance state of SC2 "in flux."
Now, I am assuming the state is "in flux" now based off of what some of the pros are saying, such as SortOf:
I think the balance council should start to prepare for a final state of balance. And they should not assume that Blizzard will be willing to modify the balance of SC2 forever, and there may come a day, and that day may be even very soon especially with ESL TV stopping the pro tour of SC2.
Realistically, I think the balance council should assume they have maybe 1 more year of Blizzard willing to change the balance for SC2, and beyond 1 year, Blizzard could pull the plug any moment and stop balance changes on SC2 altogether because it is costing them employee resources. So whatever the balance council wants to accomplish, I think they should do it within the next year.
The balance council have been completely ineffective in modifying the game to meet their stated goals, regardless of whether or not those goals even made sense to begin with.
I'd be happier if they stay well away from attempting anything tbh.
On April 15 2025 15:48 MJG wrote: The balance council have been completely ineffective in modifying the game to meet their stated goals, regardless of whether or not those goals even made sense to begin with.
I'd be happier if they stay well away from attempting anything tbh.
I'm not sure what their "goal" is, but they need to consider that they don't have infinite time to reach whatever goal they want to reach, before Blizzard pulls the plug on balance changes.
It's unfortunate after all the years the balance council has been in charge of SC2, they get to a state of balance where pros like SortOf are so frustrated, it gives them another incentive to leave SC2 for AoE4 (I'm sure SortOf had other reasons to switch to AoE4, but balance is one of them).
On April 15 2025 15:48 MJG wrote: The balance council have been completely ineffective in modifying the game to meet their stated goals, regardless of whether or not those goals even made sense to begin with.
I'd be happier if they stay well away from attempting anything tbh.
I'm not sure what their "goal" is, but they need to consider that they don't have infinite time to reach whatever goal they want to reach, before Blizzard pulls the plug on balance changes.
It's unfortunate after all the years the balance council has been in charge of SC2, they get to a state of balance where pros like SortOf are so frustrated, it gives them another incentive to leave SC2 for AoE4 (I'm sure SortOf had other reasons to switch to AoE4, but balance is one of them).
They state their aims in their patch notes and then present patches that run counter to those aims. They're not game designers or developers and, even if they were, self-interest clouds their judgement. They don't really know what they're doing, so I'd rather they did nothing.
They state their aims in their patch notes and then present patches that run counter to those aims. They're not game designers or developers and, even if they were, self-interest clouds their judgement. They don't really know what they're doing, so I'd rather they did nothing.
Yeah, I can't disagree with you there. They have been at it for several years already. And then I see videos like SortOf's video, which tells me the balance is in a pretty poor state now. Pretty disappointing.
On April 15 2025 15:48 MJG wrote: The balance council have been completely ineffective in modifying the game to meet their stated goals, regardless of whether or not those goals even made sense to begin with.
I'd be happier if they stay well away from attempting anything tbh.
I'm not sure what their "goal" is, but they need to consider that they don't have infinite time to reach whatever goal they want to reach, before Blizzard pulls the plug on balance changes.
It's unfortunate after all the years the balance council has been in charge of SC2, they get to a state of balance where pros like SortOf are so frustrated, it gives them another incentive to leave SC2 for AoE4 (I'm sure SortOf had other reasons to switch to AoE4, but balance is one of them).
They state their aims in their patch notes and then present patches that run counter to those aims. They're not game designers or developers and, even if they were, self-interest clouds their judgement. They don't really know what they're doing, so I'd rather they did nothing.
Further, I think the balance council is just malfunctioning seeing we had multiple patches where most pros voiced their disagreement about them (most notably the Cyclone change) but apparently someone pushed them through on the council.
On April 15 2025 15:48 MJG wrote: The balance council have been completely ineffective in modifying the game to meet their stated goals, regardless of whether or not those goals even made sense to begin with.
I'd be happier if they stay well away from attempting anything tbh.
Well they can restore the game to the previous state of balance that it was at in 2020 or 2021. That was better than the state it's in now, at least for the actual people playing the game on the ladder.
The point is, Blizzard doesn't make money off of SC2 anymore.
This is a common statement that I see, also in regards to starcraft 1. Where does the money go then? You can still buy the games. You can still buy skin packs. You can still buy announcer packs. Sure it's not making millions a year, but that money is coming in. Since blizzard is not actually developing the game anymore, thats pretty much free money. Surely that's enough to pay 1 guy to sit down a few times a year to implement a balance patch or push a new map pool. It wouldn't even be a full time position, just part of one dudes job that he does like 5 times a year.
So I only tune into the big SC2 tournaments these days like Katowice and EWC. I will probably tune into EWC this year for SC2. My understanding is that the balance council wants to make Protoss more competitive at the pro level by allowing higher level micro with them, while lower level Protoss players won't benefit as much from the new micro mechanics, right?
I'm totally fine if that is their "goal." But they need to take into account that they don't have all the time in the world to get to this ideal end goal, should Blizzard pull the plug on further balance changes.
If the balance council cannot get to their end goal within the next year, I agree, maybe they should revert back to the balance from 2020 or 2021, or the balance from some earlier date. The balance council needs to figure out what their end goal is, and also figure out how much time they have.
For sure, they should discuss with Blizzard if there is a possibility that Blizzard may pull the plug on future balance changes, and prepare for this eventual date if it comes.
The point is, Blizzard doesn't make money off of SC2 anymore.
This is a common statement that I see, also in regards to starcraft 1. Where does the money go then? You can still buy the games. You can still buy skin packs. You can still buy announcer packs. Sure it's not making millions a year, but that money is coming in.
It comes down to whether they make enough money off the sales, to justify putting resources to making balance changes. In some cases, they don't make enough money from the sales, to justify putting resources on the product line.
For better or worse, I think ESL TV might also factor into Blizzard's decision making. While ESL TV had the pro tour ongoing, Blizzard's reputation was at stake because it's still a professional e-sports tour, and Blizzard refusing to make the basics of balance changes while SC2 was ongoing for ESL TV would be bad for Blizzard's reputation, for the amount of resources Blizzard was spending on balance changes. But now ESL TV will no longer go forward with a SC2 pro tour, so this changes the optics and gives Blizzard more reason to terminate balance changes altogether.
Now back to the bottom line on whether Blizzard is making enough money from SC2 to justify the balance changes. I am also into flight simulation, and I can tell you that when Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 came out, it decimated the P3D market. A lot of 3rd party developers moved from P3D to Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 because the sales were so poor for their P3D products.
In various instances, some 3rd party developers decided to make all their P3D products free to use for P3D, but with the stipulation that no support would be provided. One such 3rd party developer was Blackbird/Milviz:
Blackbird/Milviz, was still getting some sales of their P3D products by the 3rd year of Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020. But the sales was so low, that it didn't justify putting staff to further support their sales of P3D products. So they made their entire line up of P3D products free. Hence when you go to the Blackbird/Milviz page to download their P3D products for free, it explicitly says, "We offer absolutely no support. Install at your own risk."
Whatever sales Blizzard gets from SC2, it can be so low, it doesn't even justify putting employee resources on it to make balance changes. I'm not saying you are wrong and I am right - I am saying we don't know. It could be that you are right. Or it could be the case like Milviz/Blackbird, where the sales are so low, they want to stop putting further employee resources on it. Hence, IMO, this is something the balance council should discuss with Blizzard.
On April 15 2025 19:40 Yrr wrote: I dont think with the balance of 2020/21 the game would play out like it did back then.
But I agree the current situation is not favourable and some minor improvements need to happen.
Aye, I think people discount the possibility that modern knowledge and subsequent experimentations, sent back to a ‘good’ meta, that meta may not stay thus.
Keeping the game balance and fun, with a big hive mind trying to optimise and break it is a tough task.
I think the balance council is falling into the trap of "not getting enough things changed" and also "changing things for no reason" at the same time. Like the Cyclone change was a bad change objectively by itself, but they allow more Mech play in the game, revert them back literally kill the entire Mech play because there is no other change to incentivize that. Then we have the little change like Libs Range, Sensor Tower, Queen cost that serves no real purpose, nor nobody know how that has impacted the game, rather just for the sake of "balance change".
The 2020/21 pro tour had 1P, 1T, and 7Z wins in premier, global events, for a 78% Zerg winrate. Integrating KR, it's 2P, 4T, and 8Z or 57% Z. Even throwing in circuit regionals too only gets it to 4P, 5T, and 11Z, or 55% Zerg. What are any of you talking about.
On April 16 2025 00:06 tigera6 wrote: I think the balance council is falling into the trap of "not getting enough things changed" and also "changing things for no reason" at the same time. Like the Cyclone change was a bad change objectively by itself, but they allow more Mech play in the game, revert them back literally kill the entire Mech play because there is no other change to incentivize that. Then we have the little change like Libs Range, Sensor Tower, Queen cost that serves no real purpose, nor nobody know how that has impacted the game, rather just for the sake of "balance change".
balance council fell*
it's important to remember they do not exist anymore.
On April 16 2025 00:06 tigera6 wrote: I think the balance council is falling into the trap of "not getting enough things changed" and also "changing things for no reason" at the same time. Like the Cyclone change was a bad change objectively by itself, but they allow more Mech play in the game, revert them back literally kill the entire Mech play because there is no other change to incentivize that. Then we have the little change like Libs Range, Sensor Tower, Queen cost that serves no real purpose, nor nobody know how that has impacted the game, rather just for the sake of "balance change".
balance council fell*
it's important to remember they do not exist anymore.
I want the last and final SC2 patch to be a Blizzard Entertainment original. The reasoning for this is that they are the original creators of the game and know it in and out.
I too have been thinking that it may be better to just revert back to the last Blizzard patch. Not because I necessarily think that meta or the game was more balanced and better designed.
But because, the balance council is a failed experiment, and just on principle I see the changes they made to the game as corrupt for the lack of a better word. It's impure, it's not made with qualified and experienced game designers, it's political, etc. It leaves a bad taste knowing that it affected SC2's balance in its last years when Blizzard seemingly got things to a satisfying point where they polished up some loose ends from the main goals they tried to achieve and did implement.
I have to think about all the changes though compared from that time to the current patch. It feels like so many things changed back and forth I have a hard time recalling off the top of my head.
On April 26 2025 10:22 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I too have been thinking that it may be better to just revert back to the last Blizzard patch. Not because I necessarily think that meta or the game was more balanced and better designed.
But because, the balance council is a failed experiment, and just on principle I see the changes they made to the game as corrupt for the lack of a better word. It's impure, it's not made with qualified and experienced game designers, it's political, etc. It leaves a bad taste knowing that it affected SC2's balance in its last years when Blizzard seemingly got things to a satisfying point where they polished up some loose ends from the main goals they tried to achieve and did implement.
I have to think about all the changes though compared from that time to the current patch. It feels like so many things changed back and forth I have a hard time recalling off the top of my head.
Other than bug fixes and improved features (of course), I 100% agree.
On April 15 2025 15:48 MJG wrote: The balance council have been completely ineffective in modifying the game to meet their stated goals, regardless of whether or not those goals even made sense to begin with.
I'd be happier if they stay well away from attempting anything tbh.
Yeah, Blizzards last patches from 2020 made SC2 the most popular it had ever been.
EPT
