• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:52
CEST 04:52
KST 11:52
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists14[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy21
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers11Maestros of the Game 2 announced32026 GSL Tour plans announced11Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail1MaNa leaves Team Liquid21
StarCraft 2
General
MaNa leaves Team Liquid 2026 GSL Tour plans announced Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued
Tourneys
GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding 2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) SEL Doubles (SC Evo Bimonthly)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 520 Moving Fees Mutation # 519 Inner Power
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Gypsy to Korea ASL21 General Discussion Pros React To: Tulbo in Ro.16 Group A Data needed
Tourneys
Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro16 Group A [ASL21] Ro16 Group B
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend? Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Reappraising The Situation T…
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2322 users

BW PvZ Balance hypothetical balance patch

Blogs > Vasoline73
Post a Reply
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7851 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-04-12 23:37:08
April 12 2025 23:34 GMT
#1
Brood War is never going to be patched again. Even if they tried, it would be royally screwed up by Blizzard so... for the most part I'm glad there won't ever be a change. THEREFORE consider this theorycraft for my own personal enjoyment (and hopefully yours!)

I have been giving PvZ some thoughts recently. On the pro level it seems very hard for P. Yes, map changes can be made and yes the game is always evolving, so it's possible that this perception of mine is "transitory." But in the last few years... in comparison to PvT and ZvT, protoss vs zerg has felt hard to watch.

These are my preliminary ideas for balancing PvZ without greatly effecting PvT and without changing PvP nuances much. I did not want to give Protoss an advantage over Zerg... as P>Z would be just as bad, I just wanted to buff P ever so slightly.

increase observer health from 40hp/20shield to 40hp/75 shield
  • allows obs to survive one scourge shot (110 damage) by 5hp... does not greatly effect PvT.... makes it a tiny bit harder to coodinate observe snipes for zerg...

give dragoons 100% attack value vs hydralisk instead of 75% (explosive damage vs medium size hydra.)
  • how exactly this could be done without effecting other aspects of the game is up for debate. One might make hydra a "medium large" unit and give the dragoon "special explosive" damage which is the same as explosive other than it inflicts 100% damage to "medium large" units... "medium large" is treated the same as "medium" by all other units in the game. This change only effects hydra vs dragoon battles...

upgrade at cybercore to increase photon cannon range by 1.
  • my initial thought is that this will NOT have a great effect on PvT while giving protoss better defensive odds against busts... both early game hydra busts and late game against cracklings... not much, but a tiny bit better. by putting upgrade at cybercore it ensures early game cannon rushes are not made more powerful.

allow archon to deal full damage under dark swarm.
  • basically keep its attack the same but give it "melee" status so it is uneffected by darkswarm. does not change PvT at all but helps late game PvZ.



As a terran player, I despise protoss... so I hope people understand I am just trying to help the game be more enjoyable for observers.

Anyway. I would have posted this in Brood War's subforum but... who needs another balance thread. I am curious what other suggestions or modifications people might suggest. Cheers.

Navane
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Netherlands2751 Posts
April 13 2025 08:58 GMT
#2
I think if Protoss needs a pvz buff it should be in the early game, as they die too often to shenanigans. Therefore out of your proposals I like the cannon range upgrade best. Another avenue wind would be to increase early game scouting abilities. Speed upgrade on the probe?
LUCKY_NOOB
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Bulgaria1537 Posts
April 13 2025 11:45 GMT
#3
The Monthly Theoricraft post haha

BTW you can make a map and give the units those properties to test how it goes (hint it will suck)
ko-fi.com/luckynoob
KrillinFromwales
Profile Blog Joined March 2022
68 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-04-14 10:32:23
April 14 2025 10:30 GMT
#4
Gotta see Midgame as Protoss we'll never know if the balanced midgame favors Z or P because of the early game pigeon hole. Personally I think an upgrade should be available for Protoss as long as it builds a Cybernetics Core to limit Zerg to either Hydra Den or Spire until Hive. The Zerg player discovers at the start whether Protoss has elected the Cybernetics Core route.

If Protoss elects Cybernetics Core at the beginning of the game then he might forgo Zealot rush so the Zerg is limited to either Lurker or Muta but not both

another idea is to just mod entirely the remastered game. Protoss has some race unique options for 1v1 including Zealot legs granted when the first Cannon is finished or something like that
Nirli
Profile Joined February 2023
Bulgaria381 Posts
April 15 2025 13:04 GMT
#5
Dragoon change will break the game. Ask Bisu.
townhouse
Profile Joined June 2018
United States36 Posts
April 15 2025 19:18 GMT
#6
Observer buff alone would make a huge difference. The number of times I've had a push stuffed simply because the zerg sniped my obs is mind boggling.
"We're here on Earth to fart around" - Vonnegut
weiliem
Profile Joined January 2008
2071 Posts
April 17 2025 14:21 GMT
#7
Just make map that's easy to secure 3rd gas and protoss will be striving
Oppa feeding style
Giovanni8
Profile Joined March 2022
57 Posts
May 01 2025 04:06 GMT
#8
Of all your idea, the only viable One Is observer, but still as Someone else said, problemi Is at game start....maybe DA with more Energy when morphing? This unit Is almost only used in pvz but right now has a timing problem...but then you don't know how players Will eventually abuse the change....
HolySmokes
Profile Joined December 2024
56 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-05-03 05:54:00
May 02 2025 03:57 GMT
#9
I don't think PvZ is imba that it needs a change, but I suppose P could have some more options in dealing with Z's tech ambiguity and mixups. I think Maelstrom and DAs provide the best option for this, as DAs seem to be specifically tailored for use against Zerg and have the abilities to deal with all of Zerg's tech units.

Right now, Mael is a situational spell. It has a supportive effect with an energy cost too high for it to generally stand on its own, and these aspects need to be addressed to make it more accessible and reliable.

Making it cost lower energy like 75 like Storm can address the timing issue P has in deploying it and allow DAs to be used early game.

But even at 75 energy, the spell's effect is generally not impactful enough on its own early on. It needs to last longer to truly deal with whatever it targets, and not affect your own units.

This can make Mael very potent in the early game, and the problem will almost certainly be that it will be too strong later on, especially with other things like Storm. The research cost will certainly have to be greater to offset this early on, like 200/200/75.6.

But that's still not enough to deal with the gain in long term strength. The spell will have to behave in a different way, like an ability perhaps. Perhaps the most unusual but handy solution to "fix" DA would be to make Maelstrom a resource based ability.

Make it so that it operates on charges, like Spider Mines and Scarabs. If a DA has 1 Maelstrom at a time, toss will have to invest in more DA if it wants more Mael, which will come at a cost that can define Mael's new power and role. It can come back with a lengthy recharge, similar to how a scarab needs to be reloaded, at no cost. But only 1 at once.

This will make it so Mael is easily useable and effective from the get-go, solving the main problem with it, but will not get stronger in misproportion later in the game, balancing this change out. So Protoss can't get Mael with 1 DA, max its energy, and transition into Storm and snowball Zerg in a decisive fight with them hand in hand.

It would just help the matchup a lot to have something that can deal with both hydras and mutas, so toss doesn't always have to make sairs for AA and scouting.

Making Mael a non-energy spell would help enable the use of Mind Control as well.
StaticNine
Profile Blog Joined March 2017
36 Posts
May 08 2025 10:36 GMT
#10
It was many years ago but the last time I checked Zerg had something like a ~54% win rate against protoss which is similar to the advantage of moving first in chess, so any change has to be small and ideally not affect TvP. I personally think these suggestions are slightly too heavy handed, but if I had to pick one of them it would be the observer change. I would be worried they would be too beefy in TvP though.

If I were forced to rebalance the match up I think I might start by increasing the research time of hydra range. This would delay hydra all ins and I don't think this would significantly affect much else. I might also change gateways and forges such that if they are touching each other they are always ling tight.
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2356 Posts
May 08 2025 13:18 GMT
#11
I WILL TELL U MY SOLUTION TO PVZ:


+ Show Spoiler +
QUIT BW


EASY FIX
ἡ τῆς Νεμέσεως τάξις
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Patches Events
22:00
5.4k Patch Clash #16
davetesta35
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft388
RuFF_SC2 191
NeuroSwarm 138
Nina 106
Ketroc 34
ROOTCatZ 21
StarCraft: Brood War
ggaemo 96
NaDa 32
League of Legends
JimRising 637
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor144
Other Games
hungrybox1177
Livibee175
ViBE113
amsayoshi56
Mew2King28
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick709
BasetradeTV187
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo146
Other Games
• Scarra1049
• Shiphtur59
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
7h 8m
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
8h 8m
Ladder Legends
12h 8m
IPSL
13h 8m
JDConan vs TBD
Aegong vs rasowy
BSL
16h 8m
StRyKeR vs rasowy
Artosis vs Aether
JDConan vs OyAji
Hawk vs izu
CranKy Ducklings
21h 8m
Replay Cast
1d 6h
Wardi Open
1d 7h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 7h
Bisu vs Ample
Jaedong vs Flash
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 13h
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
1d 23h
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Barracks vs Leta
Royal vs Light
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
KCM Race Survival
4 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Escore
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
6 days
Ladder Legends
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
BSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S2: W3
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W4
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.