Sunday 18:30 CET () LB Finals - bo7 Bonyth vs Mihu
Grand Finals December 22, Sunday 18:30 CET ()
RO8 Maps pick All vetoes and map picks need to be made before the matches. The player with the higher ladder stage ranking can decide if they want to veto first or second. The order for vetoes is ABAB ABC for BO3 and AB ABABC for BO5.
Example of vetoes for the BO5 match: player A vetoes a map player B vetoes a map player A picks the first map player B picks the second map player A picks the third map player B picks the fourth map the remaining map will be played in the decider match Once all vetoes and mappicks are done you can start the matches.
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A season of inactive Sziky, dewalt, bonyth, and the comeback of dandy turning into a literal sleep in, is coming to an end.
Meanwhile the Chinese scene manages to keep 18-20 players playing the game full time and no foreigners are invited to their tournaments, while we have invited them for 5 years straight and spreading the little prize money we have even thinner.
The question is: how is this motivating for our players? Our community? Why can't we have showmatches or mini-tournaments between top placing BSL and CNSL players, that can be broadcasted to chinese viewers and co-financed by them, to satisfy our thirst to watch our best players vs theirs?
Inviting chinese players was pretty cool for some seasons, but it's becoming tiresome to watch the players we care the most about banging their head against the wall that is chinese players who live of playing this game.
We know that our top players can hang with them, but in the long run, when they can play full time and ours not, the playing field just isn't fair.
On December 16 2024 19:09 tanngard wrote: A season of inactive Sziky, dewalt, bonyth, and the comeback of dandy turning into a literal sleep in, is coming to an end.
Meanwhile the Chinese scene manages to keep 18-20 players playing the game full time and no foreigners are invited to their tournaments, while we have invited them for 5 years straight and spreading the little prize money we have even thinner.
The question is: how is this motivating for our players? Our community? Why can't we have showmatches or mini-tournaments between top placing BSL and CNSL players, that can be broadcasted to chinese viewers and co-financed by them, to satisfy our thirst to watch our best players vs theirs?
Inviting chinese players was pretty cool for some seasons, but it's becoming tiresome to watch the players we care the most about banging their head against the wall that is chinese players who live of playing this game.
We know that our top players can hang with them, but in the long run, when they can play full time and ours not, the playing field just isn't fair.
I was just waiting for this post to happen. Foreigner cant compete vs koreans, Foreigner cant compete vs chinese. Foreigner tired. Foreigner need more region lock. Foreigner cant train. Foreigner cant build scene. Who can take this shit seriously?
By the way: You are being negative. Thats an absolute NO-GO around here. EVERYTHING IS FINE!
I'm just stating that the playing field isn't fair. Please debate the facts and refrain from attacks if you want to discuss this seriously.
I Love BSL and the great work that zzero does and i have been a monthly contributor to both his patreon and twitch account for years on years. I used to be a big donator to BSL directly, but the motivation has faded when so much of that money goes into the pockets of chinese players that already have so much.
I think what the chinese does in their scene is great and i commend them for it. Don't know how they get so much prize money and donations or how many viewers there are, but clearly the foreigner scene dwarfs in comparison.
Where then is the fairness in our smaller scene donating money to a much bigger scene, but the money flow has never streamed the other way, 5 years into this project? I'm really glad that we have learned more and gotten to know about the players from China. But why not focus on showmatches and special tournaments where chinese audience also chip in an equal amount, instead of turning the bread and butter of the foreigner scene, that is BSL, into a weaker support mechanism for the foreigner eco-system as a whole. Where is the sense in that anymore? Don't you want the foreigners to be more competitive in the long run?
Don't have anything against Chinese players being in BSL. They're already dealing with more lag than they're used to, likely a pretty small prize pool, and having to play at night. Having them in BSL generally raises the competition level.
The problem with foreigner players being inactive, I think has less to do with introduction of Chinese players to BSL, and more to do with the scene being half dead and it becoming harder and harder to find any games, without resorting to VPN to find koreans.
As for being able to support our own pros full time...that isn't likely to happen while we have such low viewership. Hell, we probably have more people who'd want to go full time if given the chance, than people willing to support others in this.
On December 16 2024 19:09 tanngard wrote: A season of inactive Sziky, dewalt, bonyth, and the comeback of dandy turning into a literal sleep in, is coming to an end.
Meanwhile the Chinese scene manages to keep 18-20 players playing the game full time and no foreigners are invited to their tournaments, while we have invited them for 5 years straight and spreading the little prize money we have even thinner.
The question is: how is this motivating for our players? Our community? Why can't we have showmatches or mini-tournaments between top placing BSL and CNSL players, that can be broadcasted to chinese viewers and co-financed by them, to satisfy our thirst to watch our best players vs theirs?
Inviting chinese players was pretty cool for some seasons, but it's becoming tiresome to watch the players we care the most about banging their head against the wall that is chinese players who live of playing this game.
We know that our top players can hang with them, but in the long run, when they can play full time and ours not, the playing field just isn't fair.
I was just waiting for this post to happen. Foreigner cant compete vs koreans, Foreigner cant compete vs chinese. Foreigner tired. Foreigner need more region lock. Foreigner cant train. Foreigner cant build scene. Who can take this shit seriously?
By the way: You are being negative. Thats an absolute NO-GO around here. EVERYTHING IS FINE!
I'm just stating that the playing field isn't fair. Please debate the facts and refrain from attacks if you want to discuss this seriously.
I Love BSL and the great work that zzero does and i have been a monthly contributor to both his patreon and twitch account for years on years. I used to be a big donator to BSL directly, but the motivation has faded when so much of that money goes into the pockets of chinese players that already have so much.
I think what the chinese does in their scene is great and i commend them for it. Don't know how they get so much prize money and donations or how many viewers there are, but clearly the foreigner scene dwarfs in comparison.
Where then is the fairness in our smaller scene donating money to a much bigger scene, but the money flow has never streamed the other way, 5 years into this project? I'm really glad that we have learned more and gotten to know about the players from China. But why not focus on showmatches and special tournaments where chinese audience also chip in an equal amount, instead of turning the bread and butter of the foreigner scene, that is BSL, into a weaker support mechanism for the foreigner eco-system as a whole. Where is the sense in that anymore? Don't you want the foreigners to be more competitive in the long run?
I'm just stating that the playing field isn't fair.
What the fuck? Is the foreigner sanctioned or prohibited to create a proper pro scene? We are talking a couple of continents here. How is it not possible that foreigner creates a scene? As you stated: "SO MUCH SUPPORT! BSL DOING GREAT JOB!". And yet every BSL states the same: "BSL region locked because foreigner needs to improve". Quite sure this thing is listed for 10 years now. Cant find sponsors either. Exept this scetchy http://esport.fund/. Which hasnt been updated in 3 years. Can someone explain who or what finances this thing?
It seems you pretty much just want a shouting match at this point and i cant think of something more boring than that. So let me try one last time to have an actual discussion with you here.
Is starcraft more popular in China? I dont know, i dont have the numbers, but gathering from the money that the players are making over there im inclined to think that yes, its not impossible that a country with 1,3 billion people might have a considerable bigger audience for this game. After all, south korea, a country with 50 million people have more starcraft fans than the rest of of the world toghether. It's not as easy as to just say that south-america, north-america and europe combined should have as big a crowd of fans based on population alone. Like i said, if you have some facts to contribute to this discussion, im happy to hear about them. I would love to be educated about what i dont know.
Are the cinese fans more cordinated and engaged in supporting their scene? That might be and credit to them if its the case. But that doesn't help our players. That is why im saying that the playing field is unfair for them. We are donating prize money to chinese players and not the other way around since our players were never invited to CNSL. It's been going on for 5 years now. What is it about that which you dont understand?
On December 16 2024 23:13 Soulforged wrote: Don't have anything against Chinese players being in BSL. They're already dealing with more lag than they're used to, likely a pretty small prize pool, and having to play at night. Having them in BSL generally raises the competition level.
This summarizes Chinese players situations pretty well. Top players like Mihu and Zhanhun have a packed schedule with tournaments and spon matches. Despite some thoughts here that they "steal" the prize money from BSL, their ROI of attending BSL is actually pretty low. To give a concrete example, if they have a tournament at 2PM, playing in BSL until 5AM on the same day is definitely not going to help them, and the prize money they risk losing can be much bigger than BSL's.
Another top player Xiaoshuai simply chose not to participate due to the low ROI.
Well in the past the biggest foreigner tournament TSL didnt ban chineses from participating. If you remove chineses from the equation now then it will be like in the past Dewalt vs Bonyth every season. Dewalt play starcraft fulltime for the past 10 years. How do you think any foreigner will compete with that ? Specially these days that inflation is insane people need to work more. BSL declares who is the best player outside Korea. Right now Chineses are the best.
Now if ZZZero wanted to do a non Chinese non Korea tourney that is a different thing. He will need to ask for more funds ( He is strugling a lot to even get this BSL runing.) And the community most likely will not support it. But like i said u will get Bonyth vs Dewalt in every tourney anyway so that will get boring eventually.
Oystein Hosted a great tourney like 1 year ago with a great format good mappool and a decent prizepool. The problem ? It doesnt get any coverage. People just dont care. The community is super dead and only get some traction when there is some Drama.As sad as it is there is nothing going on for Foreigner Bw. I wonder if Artosis and Tasteless started to host tourneys that will change. At the end of the day i remember Jaeyun hosting those NA proleagues and baning everyone outside the US.I never heard about that thing either anymore.
It doesnt help that Dandy get ban from BSL cuz he fall sleep either. I remember Mihu also fallsleep vs Dewalt in a Final and he didnt get ban. He beat Dewalt after showing up late and if im not mistaken he donated part of the prizepool to the next season in good faith. Im pretty sure we can do better than ban the best Latin America player 2 seasons cuz he fall sleep.
We could talk about how to make BSL better but imo getting rid of quality players like the chineses that are not even competition for the koreans is not a good thing. (for the competitiviness aspect)
On December 17 2024 03:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Well in the past the biggest foreigner tournament TSL didnt ban chineses from participating. If you remove chineses from the equation now then it will be like in the past Dewalt vs Bonyth every season. Dewalt play starcraft fulltime for the past 10 years. How do you think any foreigner will compete with that ? Specially these days that inflation is insane people need to work more. BSL declares who is the best player outside Korea. Right now Chineses are the best.
Now if ZZZero wanted to do a non Chinese non Korea tourney that is a different thing. He will need to ask for more funds ( He is strugling a lot to even get this BSL runing.) And the community most likely will not support it. But like i said u will get Bonyth vs Dewalt in every tourney anyway so that will get boring eventually.
Oystein Hosted a great tourney like 1 year ago with a great format good mappool and a decent prizepool. The problem ? It doesnt get any coverage. People just dont care. The community is super dead and only get some traction when there is some Drama.As sad as it is there is nothing going on for Foreigner Bw. I wonder if Artosis and Tasteless started to host tourneys that will change. At the end of the day i remember Jaeyun hosting those NA proleagues and baning everyone outside the US.I never heard about that thing either anymore.
It doesnt help that Dandy get ban from BSL cuz he fall sleep either. I remember Mihu also fallsleep vs Dewalt in a Final and he didnt get ban. He beat Dewalt after showing up late and if im not mistaken he donated part of the prizepool to the next season in good faith. Im pretty sure we can do better than ban the best Latin America player 2 seasons cuz he fall sleep.
We could talk about how to make BSL better but imo getting rid of quality players like the chineses that are not even competition for the koreans is not a good thing. (for the competitiviness aspect)
lol even you man what is this :D TSL ? just no comment total different everything. What always Dewalt vs Bonyth if no Chinese? can u check how many times happend (1? ) BonythvsDewalt finel before Chinese players showed up, thy. Oystein hosted a great tourney yes but it was first time, do you think BSL 1 was better? t.t Basically in Latam there are many fan of starcraft still if i am not wrong Bonyth vs Terror final was the best (1100-1200 viewers). do you know on what latency play Latam vs Chinese ( sometimes tr16extra ) And currently with bad VPN even us ( eu ) with lag spikes. U cant comparated Dandy, Mihu not even close man. Dandy did it this many times ( wtih me example ) without said any SORRY, i mean its totally unaccaptable. ZZZero did a great job when invited Chinese player ( i was agree with that those times ) Right now everyone who is not a haters or enemys the BSL knows what should be done ( i dont say will be better, but i am sure will be not worse ) At least maybe will come back some good players, for play some fun.
On December 17 2024 03:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Well in the past the biggest foreigner tournament TSL didnt ban chineses from participating. If you remove chineses from the equation now then it will be like in the past Dewalt vs Bonyth every season. Dewalt play starcraft fulltime for the past 10 years. How do you think any foreigner will compete with that ? Specially these days that inflation is insane people need to work more. BSL declares who is the best player outside Korea. Right now Chineses are the best.
Now if ZZZero wanted to do a non Chinese non Korea tourney that is a different thing. He will need to ask for more funds ( He is strugling a lot to even get this BSL runing.) And the community most likely will not support it. But like i said u will get Bonyth vs Dewalt in every tourney anyway so that will get boring eventually.
Oystein Hosted a great tourney like 1 year ago with a great format good mappool and a decent prizepool. The problem ? It doesnt get any coverage. People just dont care. The community is super dead and only get some traction when there is some Drama.As sad as it is there is nothing going on for Foreigner Bw. I wonder if Artosis and Tasteless started to host tourneys that will change. At the end of the day i remember Jaeyun hosting those NA proleagues and baning everyone outside the US.I never heard about that thing either anymore.
It doesnt help that Dandy get ban from BSL cuz he fall sleep either. I remember Mihu also fallsleep vs Dewalt in a Final and he didnt get ban. He beat Dewalt after showing up late and if im not mistaken he donated part of the prizepool to the next season in good faith. Im pretty sure we can do better than ban the best Latin America player 2 seasons cuz he fall sleep.
We could talk about how to make BSL better but imo getting rid of quality players like the chineses that are not even competition for the koreans is not a good thing. (for the competitiviness aspect)
I know at least one person who plays bw, but refuse to participate in BSL, idk why, probably he doesn't care, you right.
But in fact there are a lot of people who care.
There are only 3 paths to support BSL: - Watch and enjoy the games if you are a viewer - Take part in BSL and enjoy if you are a player - Contribute to BSL and enjoy if you want to be a sponsor/contributor
The only issues are: 1. Lag between long distanced players -> there are no solutions, just leave it. 2. Unfair practice advantages for some players -> dewalt + some NA players has good connection with KR + most of the chinese players have great connection with KR. -> there are no solutions, good for them, leave it.
I would personally prefer to play only TR 24 low in BSL, but that is not possible (or is it?)
On December 17 2024 03:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Well in the past the biggest foreigner tournament TSL didnt ban chineses from participating. If you remove chineses from the equation now then it will be like in the past Dewalt vs Bonyth every season. Dewalt play starcraft fulltime for the past 10 years. How do you think any foreigner will compete with that ? Specially these days that inflation is insane people need to work more. BSL declares who is the best player outside Korea. Right now Chineses are the best.
Now if ZZZero wanted to do a non Chinese non Korea tourney that is a different thing. He will need to ask for more funds ( He is strugling a lot to even get this BSL runing.) And the community most likely will not support it. But like i said u will get Bonyth vs Dewalt in every tourney anyway so that will get boring eventually.
Oystein Hosted a great tourney like 1 year ago with a great format good mappool and a decent prizepool. The problem ? It doesnt get any coverage. People just dont care. The community is super dead and only get some traction when there is some Drama.As sad as it is there is nothing going on for Foreigner Bw. I wonder if Artosis and Tasteless started to host tourneys that will change. At the end of the day i remember Jaeyun hosting those NA proleagues and baning everyone outside the US.I never heard about that thing either anymore.
It doesnt help that Dandy get ban from BSL cuz he fall sleep either. I remember Mihu also fallsleep vs Dewalt in a Final and he didnt get ban. He beat Dewalt after showing up late and if im not mistaken he donated part of the prizepool to the next season in good faith. Im pretty sure we can do better than ban the best Latin America player 2 seasons cuz he fall sleep.
We could talk about how to make BSL better but imo getting rid of quality players like the chineses that are not even competition for the koreans is not a good thing. (for the competitiviness aspect)
I know at least one person who plays bw, but refuse to participate in BSL, idk why, probably he doesn't care, you right.
But in fact there are a lot of people who care.
There are only 3 paths to support BSL: - Watch and enjoy the games if you are a viewer - Take part in BSL and enjoy if you are a player - Contribute to BSL and enjoy if you want to be a sponsor/contributor
The only issues are: 1. Lag between long distanced players -> there are no solutions, just leave it. 2. Unfair practice advantages for some players -> dewalt + some NA players has good connection with KR + most of the chinese players have great connection with KR. -> there are no solutions, good for them, leave it.
I would personally prefer to play only TR 24 low in BSL, but that is not possible (or is it?)
I know at least one person who plays bw, but refuse to participate in BSL, idk why, probably he doesn't care, you right. Do you mean do you know people that dont play BSL cuz chineses are participating ? i imagine that guy has to be extremely good to fight for top 4 otherwise why does he care ?
No one is talking about how to support BSL. ZZZero on every thread has countless links of how to support BSL.
And each season do you see the same patern. BSL finding issues to get funding.
Now is BSL having issues cuz of the chinese competition ? Or the lack of interest in seeing foreigners competing in starcraft ? I will talk for TL.net. They dont give a f*ck Look at that picture and see how dead every ZZZero thread is. 1 or 2 replies. Maybe a few more with Dandy getting hammered. And thats it.
Listen im not even sure i should be the one giving this takes. I dont play in BSL very often afterall. But i really doubt those great chinese players are making everyone to quit. Or maybe im wrong. But who knows cuz even the players taking part in BSL dont even talk about it. Apart from Sziky it seems.
I remember when Sziky dominated the foreigner scene winning almost every tourney. We were forced to improve and get better. But with Scan we basically blamed that he was korean and should not be playing in foreigner tours even if he was living in USA. He was far better than everyone true.
And that is the issue with foreigners. Is actually easier to blame now the chineses cuz they are performing better. Lets complain about lag sure. But when do you play a peruvian A rank with tr16 extra is not an issue at all .
That said for a competitive side of things the minimum turn rate u should play in is TR16 low. If you are losing at TR16 low dont waste time for a second thinking u could have won at tr24. You are just looking for excuses.
That said i was surprised to see how everyone on the twitch chat seemed to hate chineses playing it. Sadly Bonyth lost the series vs Mihu. But imagine he won. That would have been incredible and the chatters will be saying different things for sure.
On December 17 2024 03:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Well in the past the biggest foreigner tournament TSL didnt ban chineses from participating. If you remove chineses from the equation now then it will be like in the past Dewalt vs Bonyth every season. Dewalt play starcraft fulltime for the past 10 years. How do you think any foreigner will compete with that ? Specially these days that inflation is insane people need to work more. BSL declares who is the best player outside Korea. Right now Chineses are the best.
Now if ZZZero wanted to do a non Chinese non Korea tourney that is a different thing. He will need to ask for more funds ( He is strugling a lot to even get this BSL runing.) And the community most likely will not support it. But like i said u will get Bonyth vs Dewalt in every tourney anyway so that will get boring eventually.
Oystein Hosted a great tourney like 1 year ago with a great format good mappool and a decent prizepool. The problem ? It doesnt get any coverage. People just dont care. The community is super dead and only get some traction when there is some Drama.As sad as it is there is nothing going on for Foreigner Bw. I wonder if Artosis and Tasteless started to host tourneys that will change. At the end of the day i remember Jaeyun hosting those NA proleagues and baning everyone outside the US.I never heard about that thing either anymore.
It doesnt help that Dandy get ban from BSL cuz he fall sleep either. I remember Mihu also fallsleep vs Dewalt in a Final and he didnt get ban. He beat Dewalt after showing up late and if im not mistaken he donated part of the prizepool to the next season in good faith. Im pretty sure we can do better than ban the best Latin America player 2 seasons cuz he fall sleep.
We could talk about how to make BSL better but imo getting rid of quality players like the chineses that are not even competition for the koreans is not a good thing. (for the competitiviness aspect)
I know at least one person who plays bw, but refuse to participate in BSL, idk why, probably he doesn't care, you right.
But in fact there are a lot of people who care.
There are only 3 paths to support BSL: - Watch and enjoy the games if you are a viewer - Take part in BSL and enjoy if you are a player - Contribute to BSL and enjoy if you want to be a sponsor/contributor
The only issues are: 1. Lag between long distanced players -> there are no solutions, just leave it. 2. Unfair practice advantages for some players -> dewalt + some NA players has good connection with KR + most of the chinese players have great connection with KR. -> there are no solutions, good for them, leave it.
I would personally prefer to play only TR 24 low in BSL, but that is not possible (or is it?)
I know at least one person who plays bw, but refuse to participate in BSL, idk why, probably he doesn't care, you right. Do you mean do you know people that dont play BSL cuz chineses are participating ? i imagine that guy has to be extremely good to fight for top 4 otherwise why does he care ?
No one is talking about how to support BSL. ZZZero on every thread has countless links of how to support BSL.
And each season do you see the same patern. BSL finding issues to get funding.
Now is BSL having issues cuz of the chinese competition ? Or the lack of interest in seeing foreigners competing in starcraft ? I will talk for TL.net. They dont give a f*ck Look at that picture and see how dead every ZZZero thread is. 1 or 2 replies. Maybe a few more with Dandy getting hammered. And thats it.
Listen im not even sure i should be the one giving this takes. I dont play in BSL very often afterall. But i really doubt those great chinese players are making everyone to quit. Or maybe im wrong. But who knows cuz even the players taking part in BSL dont even talk about it. Apart from Sziky it seems.
I remember when Sziky dominated the foreigner scene winning almost every tourney. We were forced to improve and get better. But with Scan we basically blamed that he was korean and should not be playing in foreigner tours even if he was living in USA. He was far better than everyone true.
And that is the issue with foreigners. Is actually easier to blame now the chineses cuz they are performing better. Lets complain about lag sure. But when do you play a peruvian A rank with tr16 extra is not an issue at all .
That said for a competitive side of things the minimum turn rate u should play in is TR16 low. If you are losing at TR16 low dont waste time for a second thinking u could have won at tr24. You are just looking for excuses.
That said i was surprised to see how everyone on the twitch chat seemed to hate chineses playing it. Sadly Bonyth lost the series vs Mihu. But imagine he won. That would have been incredible and the chatters will be saying different things for sure.
This guy should believe in himself and push the fucking register button.
About funding: I don't see any issues here. BSL is going on.
And man, stop counting likes and viewers. That's not how things works. It is the same as to measure skill by APM in BW.
''I know at least one person who plays bw, but refuse to participate in BSL, idk why, probably he doesn't care, you right. Do you mean do you know people that dont play BSL cuz chineses are participating ? i imagine that guy has to be extremely good to fight for top 4 otherwise why does he care ?'' yes i know players( i hope they are will said something once more, because they are arleady did once.. ). ''And that is the issue with foreigners. Is actually easier to blame now the chineses cuz they are performing better. Lets complain about lag sure. But when do you play a peruvian A rank with tr16 extra is not an issue at all'' -Peru lag China lag not same!! i always play against example Terror,Dandy,Ultra tr16 low ( with little slow speed) or 12 low with normal speed. Against Chinese sometimes( in 1.5-2 years ago ) was good 16low with normal speed. Nowadays like last time tr16high with lag spikes against Zhanhun. was twice out the game because was unplayable .play in BSL man and u will be know more things because as i see you are not well informed ''And that is the issue with foreigners. Is actually easier to blame now the chineses cuz they are performing better. Lets complain about lag sure. But when do you play a peruvian A rank with tr16 extra is not an issue at all'' when we played tr16 extra against Peru? bring it here Scan what makes sense? you really dont understand how they are have good oportunity for practice and have so many tour ( if no BSL, do you think they are care about that ? ) This is an internet game of course depends a lot where are u living. You dont care about BSL i am sure after this what is okay just pls dont said non sense things especially '' And that is the issue with foreigners. Is actually easier to blame now the chineses cuz they are performing better'' because lets watch in the past when we had half oportunity for the practice than they ( soso VPN ). I have good results against them without any complaining. And what do you think when banned Dewalt in one Chinese tour because tr24high was ? And how the Chinese scene still not invited us a single tour? But just to clarify i dont play bw the last 2 years ( and i will not 90%) i mean only in tour. So basically i dont care. only where is the truth.
But who knows cuz even the players taking part in BSL dont even talk about it. Apart from Sziky it seems.
And what would be the point of me raising an opinion. I'm a player and I would profit, if the chineese players wouldn't be around. So yeah sure, let's do that.
As for the latency stuff eon, it's not called excuses. It's envy. I envy them so much, that they don't have to tilt about koreans leaving 50% of their games. I envy that they don't get cheesed in 50% of the remaining games. And I envy the superior TR24 conditions vs unstable VPN performances. For the reasons above it's hard to be motivated to vastly improve. You'd have to be a mental monster. Most people aren't like that and because of it some even dropped StarCraft.
To another point, BSL is open to everyone outside of Korea. Such has been the slogan for many many years. My interpretation is that it was made for as an incentive to grow the foreign starcraft, make people play more, grow in skill more. Chinese community is hardly affected by BSL, so people say, so it wouldn't be unjustified to exclude them from BSL or as mentioned somewhere above, make different events that include them. Again, super biased because i'm far from rich and 1400$ difference between 1st and 3rd place is a lot.
All that is said of course from player's perspective. I'm sure viewers will have a completely different one.
I bring Scan cuz when Scan was living in USA. We (my self included ) complained about him taking part in foreigner tourneys. Just cuz he was too good. But you were also really good. maybe a bit less than him but we didnt ask to ban you from tourneys We admired you and you were an inspiration for us zerg players. But instead of focusing on improving we just put the blame on him being korean.
Sziky if you think the right thing going forward is to remove chinese players then why dont talk it out with the organizer ? (ZZZERO) Why is not every single BSL player talking it out if it is an issue ? Im sorry do you have this lag issues with them. I saw bonyth playing TR16 low vs Mihu. So not everyone for sure having the conection thing.
But who knows cuz even the players taking part in BSL dont even talk about it. Apart from Sziky it seems.
And what would be the point of me raising an opinion. I'm a player and I would profit, if the chineese players wouldn't be around. So yeah sure, let's do that.
As for the latency stuff eon, it's not called excuses. It's envy. I envy them so much, that they don't have to tilt about koreans leaving 50% of their games. I envy that they don't get cheesed in 50% of the remaining games. And I envy the superior TR24 conditions vs unstable VPN performances. For the reasons above it's hard to be motivated to vastly improve. You'd have to be a mental monster. Most people aren't like that and because of it some even dropped StarCraft.
To another point, BSL is open to everyone outside of Korea. Such has been the slogan for many many years. My interpretation is that it was made for as an incentive to grow the foreign starcraft, make people play more, grow in skill more. Chinese community is hardly affected by BSL, so people say, so it wouldn't be unjustified to exclude them from BSL or as mentioned somewhere above, make different events that include them. Again, super biased because i'm far from rich and 1400$ difference between 1st and 3rd place is a lot.
All that is said of course from player's perspective. I'm sure viewers will have a completely different one.
The thing is that if everyone is in the same page then the organizer will have a better idea of What to do. But if this only benefits Bonyth and Dewalt maybe he is concern about doing a drastic change like baning an entire region.
At the end of the day ZZZero has a hard task here. Do i make this thing less competitive and risk less interest from the viewers ? Or do the BSL need a rework with a new format and a lock region to bring players ( asuming the players you all talk about comeback ) and viewers back.
''I bring Scan cuz when Scan was living in USA. We (my self included ) complained about him taking part in foreigner tourneys. Just cuz he was too good.'' its not true( i never complaining because anyone too good) my main problem was that time he was BM, and of course the oportunity for practice and etc, so i dont see any problem. Chinese not bring any viewers in BSL( unfortonelety Chinese cant watch Twitch ) . Oya just an example brings viewers so when u said less viewers,interesting if no Chinese totally wrong probably.
On December 17 2024 06:35 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Now is BSL having issues cuz of the chinese competition ? Or the lack of interest in seeing foreigners competing in starcraft ? I will talk for TL.net. They dont give a f*ck Look at that picture and see how dead every ZZZero thread is. 1 or 2 replies. Maybe a few more with Dandy getting hammered. And thats it.
It's not really just those 2 questions, but if we dumb it down to just those questions then sure it's more exciting to watch Korean pros play than lesser skilled foreigners.
I also feel it's not cool to say TL.net doesn't give a f*ck when the founder Naz is one of the main sponsors this season. Also the ASL/SSL streamchat is very not foreigner friendly, so it makes more sense to LR during ASL/SSL when you want to share your excitement than BSL. Btw even If we compare ASL/SSL LR threads today to what it used to be in OSL & MSL times it's like night and day.
Dedicated forums in general have not been popular anymore for years now. The younger generation doesn't give a f*ck about forums and Discord and Reddit mostly forfill whatever a forum did. Question and Answer goes much much faster there, so in this day and age a decline is not surprising.
On December 16 2024 19:09 tanngard wrote: A season of inactive Sziky, dewalt, bonyth, and the comeback of dandy turning into a literal sleep in, is coming to an end.
Meanwhile the Chinese scene manages to keep 18-20 players playing the game full time and no foreigners are invited to their tournaments, while we have invited them for 5 years straight and spreading the little prize money we have even thinner.
The question is: how is this motivating for our players? Our community? Why can't we have showmatches or mini-tournaments between top placing BSL and CNSL players, that can be broadcasted to chinese viewers and co-financed by them, to satisfy our thirst to watch our best players vs theirs?
Inviting chinese players was pretty cool for some seasons, but it's becoming tiresome to watch the players we care the most about banging their head against the wall that is chinese players who live of playing this game.
We know that our top players can hang with them, but in the long run, when they can play full time and ours not, the playing field just isn't fair.
For example Top 4 BSL vs top 4 CNSL double elim bracket showmatch type tournament or just a set of bo7/bo9 showmatches between these players with the help of chinese scene's money would be perfect, considering current circumstances.
On December 17 2024 06:35 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Now is BSL having issues cuz of the chinese competition ? Or the lack of interest in seeing foreigners competing in starcraft ? I will talk for TL.net. They dont give a f*ck Look at that picture and see how dead every ZZZero thread is. 1 or 2 replies. Maybe a few more with Dandy getting hammered. And thats it.
It's not really just those 2 questions, but if we dumb it down to just those questions then sure it's more exciting to watch Korean pros play than lesser skilled foreigners.
I also feel it's not cool to say TL.net doesn't give a f*ck when the founder Naz is one of the main sponsors this season. Also the ASL/SSL streamchat is very not foreigner friendly, so it makes more sense to LR during ASL/SSL when you want to share your excitement than BSL. Btw even If we compare ASL/SSL LR threads today to what it used to be in OSL & MSL times it's like night and day.
Dedicated forums in general have not been popular anymore for years now. The younger generation doesn't give a f*ck about forums and Discord and Reddit mostly forfill whatever a forum did. Question and Answer goes much much faster there, so in this day and age a decline is not surprising.
Post SC2 foreigner BW hasnt been really interesting for the TL community. I wasnt talking about Nazgul but the users that daily post here. There is not even people willing to type threads for BSL finals or recaps. (I remember in the begin of remastered there was. ) Artosis even had an small section to talk about foreign BW in the pylonshow. All of that is all gone. Funny enough BSL never been this competitive before. Now you dont get a 50 minutes game of Madinho vs Gosudark losing their advantage all the time. Im not even sure there are active discords about BW lol. There are not weekend tourneys anymore. Right now there is basically BWCL (team league with not prizes ) and BSL that has proleague gosuleague and hasuleague. And they run it every few months. When qikz was doing the STPL there was a more active dynamic with teams and the community feelt more alive. Hey mb is not the community that is not interested and is all about the product that is not really gathering the interest.
Pretty sure it is the community, and it is the most visible in EU queue times. Discords and TL threads have already been similarly dead a few years back, but now the game itself feels dying.
On December 18 2024 01:26 M3t4PhYzX wrote: For example Top 4 BSL vs top 4 CNSL double elim bracket showmatch type tournament or just a set of bo7/bo9 showmatches between these players with the help of chinese scene's money would be perfect, considering current circumstances.
Chinese money sponsors and rewards higher level of skills, which typically means Koreans. Unless foreign players can reach a level comparable to Koreans (and comparable network latency BTW), I doubt there will be significant interest from China. Truth can hurt, but it must be told.
Not saying it can't happen, but sponsorship likely has to come from the foreign scene.
On December 18 2024 01:26 M3t4PhYzX wrote: For example Top 4 BSL vs top 4 CNSL double elim bracket showmatch type tournament or just a set of bo7/bo9 showmatches between these players with the help of chinese scene's money would be perfect, considering current circumstances.
There should be for sure more events between foreigners and chineses. Time zone could be an issue.
That said. Wasnt that happening before ? those showmatches between bonyth vs other chineses players and Dewalt too ?
i remember seeing some event foreigners vs China or something. But yeah why more of those are not happening is a good question. Maybe Chinese casters dont get a good return from doing those ?
On December 18 2024 01:26 M3t4PhYzX wrote: For example Top 4 BSL vs top 4 CNSL double elim bracket showmatch type tournament or just a set of bo7/bo9 showmatches between these players with the help of chinese scene's money would be perfect, considering current circumstances.
Chinese money sponsors and rewards higher level of skills, which typically means Koreans. Unless foreign players can reach a level comparable to Koreans (and comparable network latency BTW), I doubt there will be significant interest from China. Truth can hurt, but it must be told.
Not saying it can't happen, but sponsorship likely has to come from the foreign scene.
Top 4 non-chinese BSL can easily hold their own against Top 4 CNSL. Especially Bonyth and Dewalt. So.. yeah, idk what are you talking about tbh.
Anyway, yeah - that kind of thing would be nice but the chances of it happening are microscopical. Bummer.
On December 18 2024 01:26 M3t4PhYzX wrote: For example Top 4 BSL vs top 4 CNSL double elim bracket showmatch type tournament or just a set of bo7/bo9 showmatches between these players with the help of chinese scene's money would be perfect, considering current circumstances.
There should be for sure more events between foreigners and chineses. Time zone could be an issue.
That said. Wasnt that happening before ? those showmatches between bonyth vs other chineses players and Dewalt too ?
i remember seeing some event foreigners vs China or something. But yeah why more of those are not happening is a good question. Maybe Chinese casters dont get a good return from doing those ?
That is a possibility. Chinese BW scene seem to be very insular and prefer watching their own going at it. I think it kinda always was this way. The only exception being events vs korean players but I think that its just natural to want to see best regional players try to win vs the best of the best in the world aka koreans.
idk what happened to these chinese vs western showmatches but would be nice to have them back and still happening from time to time. But whatever, it is what it is. Glad to have anything still happening in foreign BW after 26 years, honestly.
@Eon obviously your post triggered me a bit: My point was that I don't think it's true TLers don't care to see foreigners competing and that the amount of comments on TL isn't a great indicator imho.
Check how many views the Nyoken and Dewalt interviews got and how little comments in comparison. Both interviews were practically BSL content in disguise.
One correction first - it has been less than 5 years. It only started in November 2021, when I sponsored and worked with Zero to host show matches of Mihu/Zhanhun/Jedi vs Bonyth/Dewalt/Sziky. Mihu and QiaoGeGe participated in BSL13. I did post a thread here around 2018 and sponsored a few games of Dewalt vs Leilei and Eonzerg vs Leilei, but didn't continue as the lag was too much.
Another fact that viewers on Twitch didn't realize is that Chinese viewers (including me, although I live in the US) did sponsor. I helped transfer pretty much all the money. I don't recall any donations from China for the current BSL, as the Chinese BW scene has evolved. There used to be one dominant streamer, Sanpao, who hosted and cast all major tournaments. There are four now: Sanpao, LoveTT (he was the WCG champion of China in 2008 or 2008), Woniu and Loup. Every one of them is streaming and doing crowd funding every day, and they collect at least $1,000 from viewers daily. They are trying their best to squeeze money out of the viewers.
BSL used to be fresh and interesting for Chinese viewers, but not so much after three years. Viewers complain about the timing and latency, and many viewers want their favorite players to focus on domestic tournaments with higher prize money, or practice more often with Korean players. Many sponsors hope the top Chinese players to improve and make it to ASL RO24. There is at least a $20k prize if anyone makes it.
On the Chinese players' side, if they can't beat Dewalt and Bonyth, it doesn't make sense for them to participate (ROI is too low). Mihu is motivated to participate, and many of his supporters value BSL. Zhanhun wants his 1st BSL title. But if there continues to be too much opposition for Chinese players, I can easily talk them out from future BSLs.
On December 16 2024 19:09 tanngard wrote: A season of inactive Sziky, dewalt, bonyth, and the comeback of dandy turning into a literal sleep in, is coming to an end.
Meanwhile the Chinese scene manages to keep 18-20 players playing the game full time and no foreigners are invited to their tournaments, while we have invited them for 5 years straight and spreading the little prize money we have even thinner.
The question is: how is this motivating for our players? Our community? Why can't we have showmatches or mini-tournaments between top placing BSL and CNSL players, that can be broadcasted to chinese viewers and co-financed by them, to satisfy our thirst to watch our best players vs theirs?
Inviting chinese players was pretty cool for some seasons, but it's becoming tiresome to watch the players we care the most about banging their head against the wall that is chinese players who live of playing this game.
We know that our top players can hang with them, but in the long run, when they can play full time and ours not, the playing field just isn't fair.
On December 18 2024 03:49 Peeano wrote: @Eon obviously your post triggered me a bit: My point was that I don't think it's true TLers don't care to see foreigners competing and that the amount of comments on TL isn't a great indicator imho.
Check how many views the Nyoken and Dewalt interviews got and how little comments in comparison. Both interviews were practically BSL content in disguise.
Brother me saying TL doesnt give a f*ck about foreigners playing starcraft doesnt mean that there is not 3 cats and you looking for to see the 4 active players taking part in BSL I dont doubt for a second you will show up to the next BSL final with your pop corn and have a great time on god.
You not wrong about something tho. There is more interest on twitch /youtube / facebook about foreigner BW.
But specifically TL ? The interest has been pretty low . Not only that but the interest to China BW is also extremely low. TL usually care the most about KR BW. Those are facts.
I will also leave it there cuz im starting to sound like that freaky that get 10 accounts baned x day lmao.
I think I sponsored maybe ~40% of those show matches as I was very curious to see top Chinese players vs foreign players, which never happened previously. But I eventually lost interest after watching many games. It also took much more effort besides money to make this happen. I must translate, help to do speed tests, convert different time zones, pay using both Paypal and WeChat, etc. When Dewalt was in Korea, there were many show matches for him. If there is no lag, and the skill level is high enough, the Chinese viewers would not mind if it was a Korean or foreign player. Viewers want to see strong opponents who are slightly better than Mihu/Zhanhun/Xiaoshuai/Qiaogege so that they can benefit from those games. Several Korean players get to play show matches regularly, including Srich, HBQ, HJS, Jjab, etc. If Dewalt lives in China, he will get support and play with Koreans daily, too. As to the point that Chinese leagues do not allow foreigners to participate, that is not accurate. If you can persuade every Chinese player to accept lag (many Chinese players don’t know what TR is as they always play under TR24 low by default) and have a translator ready for every game, Sanpao will be happy to have new faces there. You must also stick to the schedule and play on weekdays, as people don’t pre-play. Dewalt attended a tournament previously when he was in Korea, but he was banned as his opponent refused to play under TR16 when Dewalt left Korea. It’s unfortunate but you can’t force players to accept lag unless you are the sole sponsor.
On December 18 2024 01:26 M3t4PhYzX wrote: For example Top 4 BSL vs top 4 CNSL double elim bracket showmatch type tournament or just a set of bo7/bo9 showmatches between these players with the help of chinese scene's money would be perfect, considering current circumstances.
There should be for sure more events between foreigners and chineses. Time zone could be an issue.
That said. Wasnt that happening before ? those showmatches between bonyth vs other chineses players and Dewalt too ?
i remember seeing some event foreigners vs China or something. But yeah why more of those are not happening is a good question. Maybe Chinese casters dont get a good return from doing those ?
It seems that some people here thinks that viewers would not prefer chinese players to be locked out.
Why? Well, what i hear from some is that we are just going to have bonyth vs dewalt finals everytime. This seems quite defeatist to me. Eonzerg, sziky, terror, dandy, gipsy, Oya, trutacz (pls comeback) have all shown that you can make cracks in their armor. And here is the thing. Previously, players of their caliber actually had a shot at winning BSL. If a player has a good day or makes improvements to some of their weaknesses, they can absolutely have a hope at taking out bonyth or dewalt.
But with the chinese involved this hope is not enough. Now you have to overcome similiar powerhouses in mihu/zhanhun/qiaogege/Xiaoshuai in addition to bonyth/dewalt. Suddenly the odds doesn't look passable anymore.
I can absolutely imagine that the motivation in practicing your heart out weakens with this prospect in mind.
Does ZZZero still take a yearly salary out of BSL donations and prize pools? I remember him saying he needed a certain amount a year to live comfortably or he'd have to return to work full time and organizing would be part time. IIRC, that amount was basically half of the total prize pool for the year. I haven't seen an update about this in quite some time. I think part of the reason why there aren't as many small tournaments, weekend tournaments, nation wars, race wars, etc is because BSL is basically a monopoly now when it comes to foreign BW tournaments. There isn't enough money to go around for other tournaments when BSL is getting the majority of it. Especially if ZZZero is taking a big chunk out of it for living expenses and a yearly salary. People used to host, organize and cast tournaments for the love of the game, not as a job. People like Qikz, Sayle, Elegant etc who did it all for the love of the game are greatly missed.
On December 18 2024 05:14 EndingLife wrote: Does ZZZero still take a yearly salary out of BSL donations and prize pools? I remember him saying he needed a certain amount a year to live comfortably or he'd have to return to work full time and organizing would be part time. IIRC, that amount was basically half of the total prize pool for the year. I haven't seen an update about this in quite some time. I think part of the reason why there aren't as many small tournaments, weekend tournaments, nation wars, race wars, etc is because BSL is basically a monopoly now when it comes to foreign BW tournaments. There isn't enough money to go around for other tournaments when BSL is getting the majority of it. Especially if ZZZero is taking a big chunk out of it for living expenses and a yearly salary. People used to host, organize and cast tournaments for the love of the game, not as a job. People like Qikz, Sayle, Elegant etc who did it all for the love of the game are greatly missed.
nah. Nothing stops you from creating your own league. There is no monopoly here. Its not about money at all.
As a spectator, I have seen dissatisfaction with playing with a bad connection. Everyone knows that you can't play your best when latency is high. All strategies that require micro-precision don't work at high latency. Even I, who only play UMS, know this.
Players join tournaments for two things. Exposure and money. But if they can't show their skills for the reasons above, they won't join.
For BSL to survive, they need to find a solution before it's too late.
Is there any interest in starting an EU league (with possibly invited players from outside the EU)? The focus would be on having fun and prize money is just a bonus. The distribution of the prize pool would be more even as well. With the right people behind the wheel, it could be a success.
The problem remains, however. Being able to practice against the best, i.e. the Koreans.
locking a region out because they are "too good" is self defeating. The goal is to get better and better at the game isn't it? Treat it as a challenge to overcome and improve, not as a hurdle impossible to overcome. Yes the chinese have a geographical advantage because they can play vs koreans and get lessons from koreans with less latency, and sometimes have an easier time learning korean because of the many language similarities. Dewalt has this exact same advantage.
Contact Koreans and book some lessons. there are plenty of them who can communicate well in english. there are plenty of them who are open to interacting with foreigners. All it takes is shooting them a message on SOOP. And be open minded to advice. I have seen some foreigners at the top being unwilling to implement changes required to adjust to the meta, or to break out of bad habits in their play. Some still play old meta stuff or have bad optimization and bad flowcharting in their decision making. You don't have to play all day every day to improve. Sport science has already proven that just grinding is not that effective. Less frequent but Highly specified and directed practice will improve your skills.
Foreigners can't really book those lessons when BSL prizemoney is going to Chinese winners tho.
Anyway, the problem is always a mix of latency, time(zones) and resources. Since playing with lag fucking sucks, region lock would be great, but there simply aren't enough players to make that interesting. So we're back at square 1.
Internet wasn't built with having the lowest latency possible in mind, and even so we're limited by how fast light can travel through whatever medium is used. When a signal has to travel half the globe and back it's never going to be good enough for any real time game at competitive level, not in our age anyway...
On December 20 2024 22:54 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: locking a region out because they are "too good" is self defeating. The goal is to get better and better at the game isn't it? Treat it as a challenge to overcome and improve, not as a hurdle impossible to overcome. Yes the chinese have a geographical advantage because they can play vs koreans and get lessons from koreans with less latency, and sometimes have an easier time learning korean because of the many language similarities. Dewalt has this exact same advantage.
Contact Koreans and book some lessons. there are plenty of them who can communicate well in english. there are plenty of them who are open to interacting with foreigners. All it takes is shooting them a message on SOOP. And be open minded to advice. I have seen some foreigners at the top being unwilling to implement changes required to adjust to the meta, or to break out of bad habits in their play. Some still play old meta stuff or have bad optimization and bad flowcharting in their decision making. You don't have to play all day every day to improve. Sport science has already proven that just grinding is not that effective. Less frequent but Highly specified and directed practice will improve your skills.
pls man dont talk about that which you know nothing abou. Since sc2 came out i put it many effort for practice not anymore, because so impossible if u are not Korean or Chinese. So except the Fish period ( when u can offten played against Korean ). Right now u cant play against Korean even with VPN only in ladder ( what is basically very bad for practice ) Koreans mostly only plays spont match ( Money), i had Contact with Cruiser he could only organize par games for money around 40 games / 3 years. how can you expect, that any Foreign do same thing who is practice 24/7 with good motivation and can living from that? what wrong with you ?? ? ''Dewalt has this exact same advantage'' what are u talking ? i am tired to explain this.
On December 20 2024 22:54 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: locking a region out because they are "too good" is self defeating. The goal is to get better and better at the game isn't it? Treat it as a challenge to overcome and improve, not as a hurdle impossible to overcome. Yes the chinese have a geographical advantage because they can play vs koreans and get lessons from koreans with less latency, and sometimes have an easier time learning korean because of the many language similarities. Dewalt has this exact same advantage.
Contact Koreans and book some lessons. there are plenty of them who can communicate well in english. there are plenty of them who are open to interacting with foreigners. All it takes is shooting them a message on SOOP. And be open minded to advice. I have seen some foreigners at the top being unwilling to implement changes required to adjust to the meta, or to break out of bad habits in their play. Some still play old meta stuff or have bad optimization and bad flowcharting in their decision making. You don't have to play all day every day to improve. Sport science has already proven that just grinding is not that effective. Less frequent but Highly specified and directed practice will improve your skills.
pls man dont talk about that which you know nothing abou. Since sc2 came out i put it many effort for practice not anymore, because so impossible if u are not Korean or Chinese. So except the Fish period ( when u can offten played against Korean ). Right now u cant play against Korean even with VPN only in ladder ( what is basically very bad for practice ) Koreans mostly only plays spont match ( Money), i had Contact with Cruiser he could only organize par games for money around 40 games / 3 years. how can you expect, that any Foreign do same thing who is practice 24/7 with good motivation and can living from that? what wrong with you ?? ? ''Dewalt has this exact same advantage'' what are u talking ? i am tired to explain this.
I have multiple pros on kakaochat and discord and talk with them regularly, some more than others. I have organized like 40+ spons. I funded moonlight proleagues some of which entirely out of my own pocket, I have contributed through players to K-league and Major proleague funding. Yes you need money because you are asking them for a service. Lessons are not free. Coaching is not free. Spon matches are not free. I never said it was free. But if you really want to improve you can definitely work something out with them, as long as you are willing to put money into it. Sadly thats how the world works. Money opens doors. There are limits to how much you can improve on your own with the limitations of region based internet infrastructure. If you lack the ability to put money into it then yes you are screwed by the limitations. But if you want to learn and improve beyond a certain level you need access to the korean pros and their insight.
And dewalt has his location to his benefit. He does not have terrible latency with Koreans. It is not perfect but its better than the latency Europeans have or Peruvians have. Bad latency however does not mean you cant get coaching from a Korean pro. You dont have to play the korean pro. You can get them to do VOD reviews like we do coaching in League Of Legends. There is Discord Screenshare. there is also regular text chat. There are way more methods of interacting than playing against a korean pro.
Korean amateurs have a similar problem. While they dont have the language and latency barrier, they also share the same monetary requirement barrier. If they don't pay-up, or don't have viewers/fans paying for them, they don't get spons, coaching or whatever either. It costs them just as much money to play.
On December 20 2024 22:54 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: locking a region out because they are "too good" is self defeating. The goal is to get better and better at the game isn't it? Treat it as a challenge to overcome and improve, not as a hurdle impossible to overcome. Yes the chinese have a geographical advantage because they can play vs koreans and get lessons from koreans with less latency, and sometimes have an easier time learning korean because of the many language similarities. Dewalt has this exact same advantage.
Contact Koreans and book some lessons. there are plenty of them who can communicate well in english. there are plenty of them who are open to interacting with foreigners. All it takes is shooting them a message on SOOP. And be open minded to advice. I have seen some foreigners at the top being unwilling to implement changes required to adjust to the meta, or to break out of bad habits in their play. Some still play old meta stuff or have bad optimization and bad flowcharting in their decision making. You don't have to play all day every day to improve. Sport science has already proven that just grinding is not that effective. Less frequent but Highly specified and directed practice will improve your skills.
pls man dont talk about that which you know nothing abou. Since sc2 came out i put it many effort for practice not anymore, because so impossible if u are not Korean or Chinese. So except the Fish period ( when u can offten played against Korean ). Right now u cant play against Korean even with VPN only in ladder ( what is basically very bad for practice ) Koreans mostly only plays spont match ( Money), i had Contact with Cruiser he could only organize par games for money around 40 games / 3 years. how can you expect, that any Foreign do same thing who is practice 24/7 with good motivation and can living from that? what wrong with you ?? ? ''Dewalt has this exact same advantage'' what are u talking ?
i am tired to explain this.
I have multiple pros on kakaochat and discord and talk with them regularly, some more than others. I have organized like 40+ spons. I funded moonlight proleagues some of which entirely out of my own pocket, I have contributed through players to K-league and Major proleague funding. Yes you need money because you are asking them for a service. Lessons are not free. Coaching is not free. Spon matches are not free. I never said it was free. But if you really want to improve you can definitely work something out with them, as long as you are willing to put money into it. Sadly thats how the world works. Money opens doors. There are limits to how much you can improve on your own with the limitations of region based internet infrastructure. If you lack the ability to put money into it then yes you are screwed by the limitations. But if you want to learn and improve beyond a certain level you need access to the korean pros and their insight.
And dewalt has his location to his benefit. He does not have terrible latency with Koreans. It is not perfect but its better than the latency Europeans have or Peruvians have. Bad latency however does not mean you cant get coaching from a Korean pro. You dont have to play the korean pro. You can get them to do VOD reviews like we do coaching in League Of Legends. There is Discord Screenshare. there is also regular text chat. There are way more methods of interacting than playing against a korean pro.
Korean amateurs have a similar problem. While they dont have the language and latency barrier, they also share the same monetary requirement barrier. If they don't pay-up, or don't have viewers/fans paying for them, they don't get spons, coaching or whatever either. It costs them just as much money to play.
Well first congrat for your things, second this post almost perfect ( but u cant comparated Dewalt and Chinese still, yes he has little bit better connection but still not enough good )do you really think how I didn't ask through Cruiser Koreans pros, semi pros about my gameplay? little bit more respect pls. why u dont belive me when i said '' u cant practice'' only With money yes man if i am rich then i go Korea or China and play without lag. 200 game not even close to enough. + because u are not know whats the different tr24 games and tr12 games. what u do when vpn not working for years and u cant play even ladder? ok i pay 10k usd for practice on tr12 do you think thats will be improving your skill? no joking. pls. And last how i pay for them, from where? if i am working and have money(few) then no time, if i am not working then no money. Little bit respect pls. '' Korean amateurs have similar problem '' where the similiar problem between tr12 and tr24 ? btw can i ask your mmr ? They have ladder ( yes pros play for fun and etc but at least they can play not insta leave because lag and they also can play similiar practice partner without pay) + and what about the teams? what do you think if i am a Korean with my skill i will get a team? Cruiser told me about teams. Similiar problem?
On December 20 2024 22:54 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: locking a region out because they are "too good" is self defeating. The goal is to get better and better at the game isn't it? Treat it as a challenge to overcome and improve, not as a hurdle impossible to overcome. Yes the chinese have a geographical advantage because they can play vs koreans and get lessons from koreans with less latency, and sometimes have an easier time learning korean because of the many language similarities. Dewalt has this exact same advantage.
Contact Koreans and book some lessons. there are plenty of them who can communicate well in english. there are plenty of them who are open to interacting with foreigners. All it takes is shooting them a message on SOOP. And be open minded to advice. I have seen some foreigners at the top being unwilling to implement changes required to adjust to the meta, or to break out of bad habits in their play. Some still play old meta stuff or have bad optimization and bad flowcharting in their decision making. You don't have to play all day every day to improve. Sport science has already proven that just grinding is not that effective. Less frequent but Highly specified and directed practice will improve your skills.
pls man dont talk about that which you know nothing abou. Since sc2 came out i put it many effort for practice not anymore, because so impossible if u are not Korean or Chinese. So except the Fish period ( when u can offten played against Korean ). Right now u cant play against Korean even with VPN only in ladder ( what is basically very bad for practice ) Koreans mostly only plays spont match ( Money), i had Contact with Cruiser he could only organize par games for money around 40 games / 3 years. how can you expect, that any Foreign do same thing who is practice 24/7 with good motivation and can living from that? what wrong with you ?? ? ''Dewalt has this exact same advantage'' what are u talking ?
i am tired to explain this.
I have multiple pros on kakaochat and discord and talk with them regularly, some more than others. I have organized like 40+ spons. I funded moonlight proleagues some of which entirely out of my own pocket, I have contributed through players to K-league and Major proleague funding. Yes you need money because you are asking them for a service. Lessons are not free. Coaching is not free. Spon matches are not free. I never said it was free. But if you really want to improve you can definitely work something out with them, as long as you are willing to put money into it. Sadly thats how the world works. Money opens doors. There are limits to how much you can improve on your own with the limitations of region based internet infrastructure. If you lack the ability to put money into it then yes you are screwed by the limitations. But if you want to learn and improve beyond a certain level you need access to the korean pros and their insight.
And dewalt has his location to his benefit. He does not have terrible latency with Koreans. It is not perfect but its better than the latency Europeans have or Peruvians have. Bad latency however does not mean you cant get coaching from a Korean pro. You dont have to play the korean pro. You can get them to do VOD reviews like we do coaching in League Of Legends. There is Discord Screenshare. there is also regular text chat. There are way more methods of interacting than playing against a korean pro.
Korean amateurs have a similar problem. While they dont have the language and latency barrier, they also share the same monetary requirement barrier. If they don't pay-up, or don't have viewers/fans paying for them, they don't get spons, coaching or whatever either. It costs them just as much money to play.
Well first congrat for your things, second this post almost perfect ( but u cant comparated Dewalt and Chinese still, yes he has little bit better connection but still not enough good )do you really think how I didn't ask through Cruiser Koreans pros, semi pros about my gameplay? little bit more respect pls. why u dont belive me when i said '' u cant practice'' only With money yes man if i am rich then i go Korea or China and play without lag. 200 game not even close to enough. + because u are not know whats the different tr24 games and tr12 games. what u do when vpn not working for years and u cant play even ladder? ok i pay 10k usd for practice on tr12 do you think thats will be improving your skill? no joking. pls. And last how i pay for them, from where? if i am working and have money(few) then no time, if i am not working then no money. Little bit respect pls. '' Korean amateurs have similar problem '' where the similiar problem between tr12 and tr24 ? btw can i ask your mmr ? They have ladder ( yes pros play for fun and etc but at least they can play not insta leave because lag and they also can play similiar practice partner without pay) + and what about the teams? what do you think if i am a Korean with my skill i will get a team? Cruiser told me about teams. Similiar problem?
I never showed you any disrespect. I never said it was you. I specifically said "some foreigners". I addressed the latency issues for Europe and Peru. When I talked about Korean amateurs I specifically said "the money problem" also being their problem, meaning the latency problem is not a problem for them but they do face a common challenge. I cited my experiences of interacting with pros to refute your point of "not knowing what I am talking about". And everyone knows the challenges of latency...
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