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On December 17 2024 06:35 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
But who knows cuz even the players taking part in BSL dont even talk about it. Apart from Sziky it seems.
And what would be the point of me raising an opinion. I'm a player and I would profit, if the chineese players wouldn't be around. So yeah sure, let's do that.
As for the latency stuff eon, it's not called excuses. It's envy. I envy them so much, that they don't have to tilt about koreans leaving 50% of their games. I envy that they don't get cheesed in 50% of the remaining games. And I envy the superior TR24 conditions vs unstable VPN performances.
For the reasons above it's hard to be motivated to vastly improve. You'd have to be a mental monster. Most people aren't like that and because of it some even dropped StarCraft.
To another point, BSL is open to everyone outside of Korea. Such has been the slogan for many many years. My interpretation is that it was made for as an incentive to grow the foreign starcraft, make people play more, grow in skill more. Chinese community is hardly affected by BSL, so people say, so it wouldn't be unjustified to exclude them from BSL or as mentioned somewhere above, make different events that include them. Again, super biased because i'm far from rich and 1400$ difference between 1st and 3rd place is a lot.
All that is said of course from player's perspective. I'm sure viewers will have a completely different one.
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I bring Scan cuz when Scan was living in USA. We (my self included ) complained about him taking part in foreigner tourneys. Just cuz he was too good. But you were also really good. maybe a bit less than him but we didnt ask to ban you from tourneys  We admired you and you were an inspiration for us zerg players. But instead of focusing on improving we just put the blame on him being korean.
Sziky if you think the right thing going forward is to remove chinese players then why dont talk it out with the organizer ? (ZZZERO) Why is not every single BSL player talking it out if it is an issue ? Im sorry do you have this lag issues with them. I saw bonyth playing TR16 low vs Mihu. So not everyone for sure having the conection thing.
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On December 17 2024 07:49 Bonyth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2024 06:35 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
But who knows cuz even the players taking part in BSL dont even talk about it. Apart from Sziky it seems.
And what would be the point of me raising an opinion. I'm a player and I would profit, if the chineese players wouldn't be around. So yeah sure, let's do that. As for the latency stuff eon, it's not called excuses. It's envy. I envy them so much, that they don't have to tilt about koreans leaving 50% of their games. I envy that they don't get cheesed in 50% of the remaining games. And I envy the superior TR24 conditions vs unstable VPN performances. For the reasons above it's hard to be motivated to vastly improve. You'd have to be a mental monster. Most people aren't like that and because of it some even dropped StarCraft. To another point, BSL is open to everyone outside of Korea. Such has been the slogan for many many years. My interpretation is that it was made for as an incentive to grow the foreign starcraft, make people play more, grow in skill more. Chinese community is hardly affected by BSL, so people say, so it wouldn't be unjustified to exclude them from BSL or as mentioned somewhere above, make different events that include them. Again, super biased because i'm far from rich and 1400$ difference between 1st and 3rd place is a lot. All that is said of course from player's perspective. I'm sure viewers will have a completely different one.
The thing is that if everyone is in the same page then the organizer will have a better idea of What to do. But if this only benefits Bonyth and Dewalt maybe he is concern about doing a drastic change like baning an entire region.
At the end of the day ZZZero has a hard task here. Do i make this thing less competitive and risk less interest from the viewers ? Or do the BSL need a rework with a new format and a lock region to bring players ( asuming the players you all talk about comeback ) and viewers back.
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''I bring Scan cuz when Scan was living in USA. We (my self included ) complained about him taking part in foreigner tourneys. Just cuz he was too good.'' its not true( i never complaining because anyone too good) my main problem was that time he was BM, and of course the oportunity for practice and etc, so i dont see any problem. Chinese not bring any viewers in BSL( unfortonelety Chinese cant watch Twitch ) . Oya just an example brings viewers so when u said less viewers,interesting if no Chinese totally wrong probably.
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just sux that there's no broodwar streaming soon for foreigners so nobody can actually play full time like koreans & chinese do heh
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Netherlands4651 Posts
On December 17 2024 06:35 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Now is BSL having issues cuz of the chinese competition ? Or the lack of interest in seeing foreigners competing in starcraft ? I will talk for TL.net. They dont give a f*ck Look at that picture and see how dead every ZZZero thread is. 1 or 2 replies. Maybe a few more with Dandy getting hammered. And thats it. + Show Spoiler +
It's not really just those 2 questions, but if we dumb it down to just those questions then sure it's more exciting to watch Korean pros play than lesser skilled foreigners.
I also feel it's not cool to say TL.net doesn't give a f*ck when the founder Naz is one of the main sponsors this season. Also the ASL/SSL streamchat is very not foreigner friendly, so it makes more sense to LR during ASL/SSL when you want to share your excitement than BSL. Btw even If we compare ASL/SSL LR threads today to what it used to be in OSL & MSL times it's like night and day.
Dedicated forums in general have not been popular anymore for years now. The younger generation doesn't give a f*ck about forums and Discord and Reddit mostly forfill whatever a forum did. Question and Answer goes much much faster there, so in this day and age a decline is not surprising.
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On December 16 2024 19:09 tanngard wrote:
A season of inactive Sziky, dewalt, bonyth, and the comeback of dandy turning into a literal sleep in, is coming to an end.
Meanwhile the Chinese scene manages to keep 18-20 players playing the game full time and no foreigners are invited to their tournaments, while we have invited them for 5 years straight and spreading the little prize money we have even thinner.
The question is: how is this motivating for our players? Our community? Why can't we have showmatches or mini-tournaments between top placing BSL and CNSL players, that can be broadcasted to chinese viewers and co-financed by them, to satisfy our thirst to watch our best players vs theirs?
Inviting chinese players was pretty cool for some seasons, but it's becoming tiresome to watch the players we care the most about banging their head against the wall that is chinese players who live of playing this game.
We know that our top players can hang with them, but in the long run, when they can play full time and ours not, the playing field just isn't fair.
I agree with this post wholeheartedly.
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For example Top 4 BSL vs top 4 CNSL double elim bracket showmatch type tournament or just a set of bo7/bo9 showmatches between these players with the help of chinese scene's money would be perfect, considering current circumstances.
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On December 18 2024 00:37 Peeano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2024 06:35 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Now is BSL having issues cuz of the chinese competition ? Or the lack of interest in seeing foreigners competing in starcraft ? I will talk for TL.net. They dont give a f*ck Look at that picture and see how dead every ZZZero thread is. 1 or 2 replies. Maybe a few more with Dandy getting hammered. And thats it. + Show Spoiler + It's not really just those 2 questions, but if we dumb it down to just those questions then sure it's more exciting to watch Korean pros play than lesser skilled foreigners. I also feel it's not cool to say TL.net doesn't give a f*ck when the founder Naz is one of the main sponsors this season. Also the ASL/SSL streamchat is very not foreigner friendly, so it makes more sense to LR during ASL/SSL when you want to share your excitement than BSL. Btw even If we compare ASL/SSL LR threads today to what it used to be in OSL & MSL times it's like night and day. Dedicated forums in general have not been popular anymore for years now. The younger generation doesn't give a f*ck about forums and Discord and Reddit mostly forfill whatever a forum did. Question and Answer goes much much faster there, so in this day and age a decline is not surprising.
Post SC2 foreigner BW hasnt been really interesting for the TL community. I wasnt talking about Nazgul but the users that daily post here. There is not even people willing to type threads for BSL finals or recaps. (I remember in the begin of remastered there was. ) Artosis even had an small section to talk about foreign BW in the pylonshow. All of that is all gone.
Funny enough BSL never been this competitive before. Now you dont get a 50 minutes game of Madinho vs Gosudark losing their advantage all the time. Im not even sure there are active discords about BW lol. There are not weekend tourneys anymore. Right now there is basically BWCL (team league with not prizes ) and BSL that has proleague gosuleague and hasuleague. And they run it every few months. When qikz was doing the STPL there was a more active dynamic with teams and the community feelt more alive. Hey mb is not the community that is not interested and is all about the product that is not really gathering the interest.
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Pretty sure it is the community, and it is the most visible in EU queue times.
Discords and TL threads have already been similarly dead a few years back, but now the game itself feels dying.
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On December 18 2024 01:26 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
For example Top 4 BSL vs top 4 CNSL double elim bracket showmatch type tournament or just a set of bo7/bo9 showmatches between these players with the help of chinese scene's money would be perfect, considering current circumstances.
Chinese money sponsors and rewards higher level of skills, which typically means Koreans. Unless foreign players can reach a level comparable to Koreans (and comparable network latency BTW), I doubt there will be significant interest from China. Truth can hurt, but it must be told.
Not saying it can't happen, but sponsorship likely has to come from the foreign scene.
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On December 18 2024 01:26 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
For example Top 4 BSL vs top 4 CNSL double elim bracket showmatch type tournament or just a set of bo7/bo9 showmatches between these players with the help of chinese scene's money would be perfect, considering current circumstances.
There should be for sure more events between foreigners and chineses. Time zone could be an issue.
That said. Wasnt that happening before ? those showmatches between bonyth vs other chineses players and Dewalt too ?
i remember seeing some event foreigners vs China or something. But yeah why more of those are not happening is a good question. Maybe Chinese casters dont get a good return from doing those ?
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On December 18 2024 02:10 bochs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2024 01:26 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
For example Top 4 BSL vs top 4 CNSL double elim bracket showmatch type tournament or just a set of bo7/bo9 showmatches between these players with the help of chinese scene's money would be perfect, considering current circumstances. Chinese money sponsors and rewards higher level of skills, which typically means Koreans. Unless foreign players can reach a level comparable to Koreans (and comparable network latency BTW), I doubt there will be significant interest from China. Truth can hurt, but it must be told. Not saying it can't happen, but sponsorship likely has to come from the foreign scene.
Top 4 non-chinese BSL can easily hold their own against Top 4 CNSL. Especially Bonyth and Dewalt. So.. yeah, idk what are you talking about tbh.
Anyway, yeah - that kind of thing would be nice but the chances of it happening are microscopical. Bummer.
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On December 18 2024 02:12 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2024 01:26 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
For example Top 4 BSL vs top 4 CNSL double elim bracket showmatch type tournament or just a set of bo7/bo9 showmatches between these players with the help of chinese scene's money would be perfect, considering current circumstances. There should be for sure more events between foreigners and chineses. Time zone could be an issue. That said. Wasnt that happening before ? those showmatches between bonyth vs other chineses players and Dewalt too ? i remember seeing some event foreigners vs China or something. But yeah why more of those are not happening is a good question. Maybe Chinese casters dont get a good return from doing those ?
That is a possibility. Chinese BW scene seem to be very insular and prefer watching their own going at it. I think it kinda always was this way. The only exception being events vs korean players but I think that its just natural to want to see best regional players try to win vs the best of the best in the world aka koreans.
idk what happened to these chinese vs western showmatches but would be nice to have them back and still happening from time to time. But whatever, it is what it is. Glad to have anything still happening in foreign BW after 26 years, honestly.
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Netherlands4651 Posts
@Eon obviously your post triggered me a bit:
My point was that I don't think it's true TLers don't care to see foreigners competing and that the amount of comments on TL isn't a great indicator imho.
Check how many views the Nyoken and Dewalt interviews got and how little comments in comparison. Both interviews were practically BSL content in disguise.
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One correction first - it has been less than 5 years. It only started in November 2021, when I sponsored and worked with Zero to host show matches of Mihu/Zhanhun/Jedi vs Bonyth/Dewalt/Sziky. Mihu and QiaoGeGe participated in BSL13. I did post a thread here around 2018 and sponsored a few games of Dewalt vs Leilei and Eonzerg vs Leilei, but didn't continue as the lag was too much.
Another fact that viewers on Twitch didn't realize is that Chinese viewers (including me, although I live in the US) did sponsor. I helped transfer pretty much all the money. I don't recall any donations from China for the current BSL, as the Chinese BW scene has evolved. There used to be one dominant streamer, Sanpao, who hosted and cast all major tournaments. There are four now: Sanpao, LoveTT (he was the WCG champion of China in 2008 or 2008), Woniu and Loup. Every one of them is streaming and doing crowd funding every day, and they collect at least $1,000 from viewers daily. They are trying their best to squeeze money out of the viewers.
BSL used to be fresh and interesting for Chinese viewers, but not so much after three years. Viewers complain about the timing and latency, and many viewers want their favorite players to focus on domestic tournaments with higher prize money, or practice more often with Korean players. Many sponsors hope the top Chinese players to improve and make it to ASL RO24. There is at least a $20k prize if anyone makes it.
On the Chinese players' side, if they can't beat Dewalt and Bonyth, it doesn't make sense for them to participate (ROI is too low). Mihu is motivated to participate, and many of his supporters value BSL. Zhanhun wants his 1st BSL title. But if there continues to be too much opposition for Chinese players, I can easily talk them out from future BSLs.
On December 16 2024 19:09 tanngard wrote:
A season of inactive Sziky, dewalt, bonyth, and the comeback of dandy turning into a literal sleep in, is coming to an end.
Meanwhile the Chinese scene manages to keep 18-20 players playing the game full time and no foreigners are invited to their tournaments, while we have invited them for 5 years straight and spreading the little prize money we have even thinner.
The question is: how is this motivating for our players? Our community? Why can't we have showmatches or mini-tournaments between top placing BSL and CNSL players, that can be broadcasted to chinese viewers and co-financed by them, to satisfy our thirst to watch our best players vs theirs?
Inviting chinese players was pretty cool for some seasons, but it's becoming tiresome to watch the players we care the most about banging their head against the wall that is chinese players who live of playing this game.
We know that our top players can hang with them, but in the long run, when they can play full time and ours not, the playing field just isn't fair.
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On December 18 2024 03:49 Peeano wrote:@Eon obviously your post triggered me a bit: My point was that I don't think it's true TLers don't care to see foreigners competing and that the amount of comments on TL isn't a great indicator imho. Check how many views the Nyoken and Dewalt interviews got and how little comments in comparison. Both interviews were practically BSL content in disguise.
Brother me saying TL doesnt give a f*ck about foreigners playing starcraft doesnt mean that there is not 3 cats and you looking for to see the 4 active players taking part in BSL I dont doubt for a second you will show up to the next BSL final with your pop corn and have a great time on god. 
You not wrong about something tho. There is more interest on twitch /youtube / facebook about foreigner BW.
But specifically TL ? The interest has been pretty low . Not only that but the interest to China BW is also extremely low.
TL usually care the most about KR BW. Those are facts.
I will also leave it there cuz im starting to sound like that freaky that get 10 accounts baned x day lmao.
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I think I sponsored maybe ~40% of those show matches as I was very curious to see top Chinese players vs foreign players, which never happened previously. But I eventually lost interest after watching many games. It also took much more effort besides money to make this happen. I must translate, help to do speed tests, convert different time zones, pay using both Paypal and WeChat, etc.
When Dewalt was in Korea, there were many show matches for him. If there is no lag, and the skill level is high enough, the Chinese viewers would not mind if it was a Korean or foreign player. Viewers want to see strong opponents who are slightly better than Mihu/Zhanhun/Xiaoshuai/Qiaogege so that they can benefit from those games. Several Korean players get to play show matches regularly, including Srich, HBQ, HJS, Jjab, etc. If Dewalt lives in China, he will get support and play with Koreans daily, too.
As to the point that Chinese leagues do not allow foreigners to participate, that is not accurate. If you can persuade every Chinese player to accept lag (many Chinese players don’t know what TR is as they always play under TR24 low by default) and have a translator ready for every game, Sanpao will be happy to have new faces there. You must also stick to the schedule and play on weekdays, as people don’t pre-play. Dewalt attended a tournament previously when he was in Korea, but he was banned as his opponent refused to play under TR16 when Dewalt left Korea. It’s unfortunate but you can’t force players to accept lag unless you are the sole sponsor.
On December 18 2024 02:12 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2024 01:26 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
For example Top 4 BSL vs top 4 CNSL double elim bracket showmatch type tournament or just a set of bo7/bo9 showmatches between these players with the help of chinese scene's money would be perfect, considering current circumstances. There should be for sure more events between foreigners and chineses. Time zone could be an issue. That said. Wasnt that happening before ? those showmatches between bonyth vs other chineses players and Dewalt too ? i remember seeing some event foreigners vs China or something. But yeah why more of those are not happening is a good question. Maybe Chinese casters dont get a good return from doing those ?
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It seems that some people here thinks that viewers would not prefer chinese players to be locked out.
Why? Well, what i hear from some is that we are just going to have bonyth vs dewalt finals everytime. This seems quite defeatist to me. Eonzerg, sziky, terror, dandy, gipsy, Oya, trutacz (pls comeback) have all shown that you can make cracks in their armor. And here is the thing. Previously, players of their caliber actually had a shot at winning BSL. If a player has a good day or makes improvements to some of their weaknesses, they can absolutely have a hope at taking out bonyth or dewalt.
But with the chinese involved this hope is not enough. Now you have to overcome similiar powerhouses in mihu/zhanhun/qiaogege/Xiaoshuai in addition to bonyth/dewalt. Suddenly the odds doesn't look passable anymore.
I can absolutely imagine that the motivation in practicing your heart out weakens with this prospect in mind.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/L5jDShI.png)
