Some, but not all the time

early WoL was fun but... well also kinda stupid sometimes.

And i will never like cheese in the last game of a final. Im boring and want a descent long "macro" game

WombaT

Northern Ireland25033 Posts

December 04 2024 16:08 GMT

I like all-ins and cheese as either a response to really greedy blind play, or as a giant gamble. In Legacy perhaps you’re a bit too blind safe versus a bit too much.

But if cheese is too potent it can make games feel a bit coinflippy and frustrating, you can have too much of a good thing too.

Starcloud

137 Posts

December 04 2024 17:15 GMT

I think the question is kinda vast and its kinda hard to answer in short. I used to hate especially early game cheeses. Nowadays since they have massively dissappeared from the game I kinda miss them. Its hard to say a good ratio, but generally speaking my optimal division for games would be something like this;

30% "normal" macro games
30% prepared strategies
20% all-ins (6min+)
20% early game shenanigans, cheeses

Of course these things overlap each other somewhat, but around those would be my selections, if the players are somewhat equally skilled.

PurE)Rabbit-SF

United States652 Posts

December 04 2024 17:20 GMT

I like when the game has decision to make about "bluffing" and "gamble" if everything is as current SC2 is mapped out as it is ...... There really isn't much mind game going on. Cause the greedy player always win anyway. It kills the fun of it.

Brood war in early days was extremely fun to watch for this, especially in a bo7 and bo5, where ForGG and others all thrived at preparing certain strategy in some maps.

Also the map variation in brood war is far better than StarCraft 2, SC2 just feels super dull on map design, it doesn't incentivize for more creative play, it's actually super boring to watch sometime really.

Vindicare605

United States16056 Posts

December 04 2024 17:33 GMT

In any Best of 3, I expect to see at least one game of cheese. So I'd say 33% sounds like a nice number.

Ciaus237

South Africa280 Posts

December 04 2024 17:47 GMT

On December 05 2024 02:33 Vindicare605 wrote:
In any Best of 3, I expect to see at least one game of cheese. So I'd say 33% sounds like a nice number.

Yeah, about 1/3rd is good to me too.

I think having the game be such a pure speedfest as it is now is not completely ideal. Rewarding the skillset of the Rogue's and sOs's of the world is good to me (not to diss Rogue's mechanics, his multitasking is godly, but outbraining Clem micro is just not something the current iteration of the game allows for much).

XenOsky

Chile2260 Posts

December 05 2024 02:42 GMT

20% all in seems solid

Balnazza

Germany1137 Posts

December 05 2024 04:23 GMT

20-33% seems like a pretty solid number. While Allins/Cheese can feel dull and stupid ("oh wow, Player A is basically instantly dead and we get to see a 3min deathanimation!"), but they can also produce some of the most memorable games ever. Just from the top of my head as an example: BlizzCon 2014 (I think), herO vs. Classic, Game5 and Classic just goes for a super-greedy Allin, exploiting that herO never scouts.

I would also say that SC2, having not that much diversity in openings, needs these kind of allins to keep everyone on their toes. In WC3 as a comparison, I'm fine with much fewer T1 Allins (around 10% I would say), because I would rather prefer different Hero-Openings.

RenSC2

United States1056 Posts

December 05 2024 05:40 GMT

#10

I was thinking about 1 in 5 games (20%)... so the cutoff in the poll was kind of unfortunate. Picked the 0-20% range, but could easily be 21-40%. Just enough to keep a series spicy and prevent too much greed, but I don't want to see a series decided by a coin flip.

Agh

United States929 Posts

December 05 2024 09:01 GMT

#11

It would mean more if cheese builds were actually 'all-in' and resulted in the attacker playing severely disadvantaged if they failed... but nowadays most "cheese" builds will usually trade evenly worst case, with the needle averaging on the upside.

On December 05 2024 02:20 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:
I like when the game has decision to make about "bluffing" and "gamble" if everything is as current SC2 is mapped out as it is ...... There really isn't much mind game going on. Cause the greedy player always win anyway. It kills the fun of it.
Also the map variation in brood war is far better than StarCraft 2, SC2 just feels super dull on map design, it doesn't incentivize for more creative play, it's actually super boring to watch sometime really.

Most attempts at map creativity recently have just skewed results for T or Z.
Ironically the most plain maps have produced the best games.

ejozl

Denmark3360 Posts

December 05 2024 09:20 GMT

#12

What's important is that there is the option. We saw parting play completely diff. From other protosses often not allowing opponents to play "proper starcraft" it might seem like that is awful, but that's honestly smth that can help balance the game. If toss cannot win late game due to balance issues, at least you can win by playing poker, showcasing a different kind of skill.

Blitzball04

191 Posts

December 05 2024 13:42 GMT

#13

50% with a mix of cheese or weird build.

But for years now most games are all very predictable macro builds

For me, usually I skip/fast forward for the 7 minutes of every tvz games since I know nothing significant happens. Tvt is usually a skip for me (boring matchup).

I usually watch any Protoss games since games involving protoss have a higher chance of non macro games

Harris1st

Germany6888 Posts

December 05 2024 14:04 GMT

#14

30-40%

That said, cheese and all-in strategies don't always end games. Sometimes it becomes a great clown fiesta base trade chaos and that is just entertaining!

Ideas

United States8087 Posts

December 05 2024 14:41 GMT

#15

It's awesome when it's a very creative and map-specific cheese. But when it's just a gambley generic cheese (4pools, BBS, etc) it's not interesting at all.

Cricketer12

United States13973 Posts

December 05 2024 15:32 GMT

#16

Something like 30ish% mix things up, forces players to think critically instead of just muscle memory into a routine standard game...

Plus what I would argue was the most important game in SC2 history (Mvp v Squirtle G7) was only possible through the guts tenacity and bravado that only cheese can create

JimmyJRaynor

Canada16679 Posts

December 05 2024 16:59 GMT

#17

all-ins and "cheese" are 2 different things. cheese .. 10%. All-In... about as often as happens in Texas No Limit Hold-em.

I love how some players had no problem going "all in" at any second of a game versus players who try to turn the game into a 2 hour SimCity macro contest.