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As an esports viewer, how often would you like to see all-…

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rwala
Profile Joined December 2019
280 Posts
December 06 2024 12:31 GMT
#21
Lots of reasonable responses! The more interesting/important question is what % of games do you want to see go late game (let’s say 25+ mins). This to me approaches 0, maybe 10% if I’m being generous. I really dislike watching two armies tap dance around a map flirting and backing away like anxious pre-teens until the singular, often anti-climactic game-ending fight, There are some TvZs that take on a more interesting late game character, but all the other match-ups feel like this most of the time late game. You probably need to incentivize more cheese and all-ins or at least very sharp mid-game timing attacks to avoid this. Or perhaps create maps with more pathways to the third and fourth bases/fewer chokepoints.
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany6900 Posts
December 06 2024 12:40 GMT
#22
On December 06 2024 21:31 rwala wrote:
Lots of reasonable responses! The more interesting/important question is what % of games do you want to see go late game (let’s say 25+ mins). This to me approaches 0, maybe 10% if I’m being generous. I really dislike watching two armies tap dance around a map flirting and backing away like anxious pre-teens until the singular, often anti-climactic game-ending fight, There are some TvZs that take on a more interesting late game character, but all the other match-ups feel like this most of the time late game. You probably need to incentivize more cheese and all-ins or at least very sharp mid-game timing attacks to avoid this. Or perhaps create maps with more pathways to the third and fourth bases/fewer chokepoints.


Well that depends a lot on who is playing. I can watch Serral - Clem all day everyday every lenght. Serral - Maru on the other hand I would rather end sooner than later.
PvZ super lategame is kinda always a bit snoozy while TvT can be interesting and so on
Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States653 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-12-06 18:09:02
December 06 2024 18:01 GMT
#23
Not gonna lie, I was watching CS2 Shanghai Major last night, oh boy I stayed up all night to watch it. The match was nail biting got me screaming, and super exciting to watch!

SC2 has not been delivering the same excitement for ages now. It's kind of "boring" too predictable.

I don't necessarily believe the Cheese strategy is a solution to the problem. I would say the game is a bit too figured out, and you only have 2 player duking it out with 2 brain and 4 hands. It's all on the 2 player's ability and arsenal to do something. So I am not sure what's really lacking. Deep in my heart I am still an RTS nerd. I think the genre could use some creative makeover to deliver more excitement for both the player and viewer.

I do feel like the balance of SC2 went to a really bad way by balancing by the PRO, for the sake of "BALANCE(NO RNG)"

Also not to mention that Clem and Serral just got way too good at this.

And also feels like the Korean players just arn't as motivated as they once were, or maybe because not as many playing so not as many practicing partners. And whatever have you, that is beyond my knowledge.

I think the issue is there are way too many mechanics in the game that is too good at making the map revealed, you cannot hide anything virtually. that's the problem, it's like playing RTS without fog of war. Scouting is too cheap in SC2 it feels like and it's very hard to block scouting.

Thinking about the CS2 matches, it was the fog of war, information gathering and push and pull that's really exciting to see. And it's super easy to understand.


So at end of the day I think what we really need to solve is Information as a resource needs to be nerfedddddddddd, it's tooooooo cheappp and tooooo strong right now.
Mostly a troll, bi-polar by design, occasionally brain malfunction. Please forgive me. xD
aringadingding
Profile Joined September 2010
474 Posts
December 06 2024 19:51 GMT
#24
To me its a bit of a difference between a well timed out all-in and a cheese. To me the all-in serves the purpose of building up an attack with maximum effect at a certain time (maybe against a certain race, player and map). But a cheese is more of a coinflip. The coinflip can be fun to see at 5-10 percent of the games. For me. The all-in has a higher percentage for sure. HOWEVER, its also based on the balance and meta. If it turns out a specific build is a bit too strong, then that all-in is boring and annoying to see. I am mainly a toss fan. But if it ever would be (it wont) a patch where they buff toss that makes them have a timing that is super strong, I would also get fed up seeing all toss use that, even if it meant my favourite toss players would succeed.
SehWho
Profile Joined July 2012
69 Posts
December 06 2024 20:27 GMT
#25
I'd like to see a lot more strong all-ins and some pure cheese thrown in there as well. I love lategame StarCraft but it being nearly guaranteed that the game will get there among top players bugs me, I want to see disruptive nonsense that has character!. Figuring out how to achieve that is above my paygrade, though. Nerfing scouting options? Reducing worker count to 8 or so? Nerfing defensive options? I don't know!
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States653 Posts
December 06 2024 21:15 GMT
#26
the other part is really missing is bo3 bo5 bo7 the cheese serves the purpose to call the other player's bluff, that's what it's really exciting. Cheese without purpose in bo1 is boring AF and toxic
Mostly a troll, bi-polar by design, occasionally brain malfunction. Please forgive me. xD
_fool
Profile Joined February 2011
Netherlands676 Posts
December 06 2024 21:39 GMT
#27
I have a lot of respect for players that are able to play solid macro games, but it's the same respect I also have for classical musicians. They don't make mistakes, and their practice allows them to do amazing things, but to me it's not exciting to watch. In my opinion, weird builds and scrappy games are the best games. My super favorites are failed all ins into scrappy macro game into base trade.

I vote 66% cheese.
"News is to the mind what sugar is to the body"
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25054 Posts
December 06 2024 23:49 GMT
#28
Some cheese is also total bullshit and not fun to watch. There’s also the whole playing the game to consider,

For me someone like sOs really hit the sweet spot. He did a lot of funky stuff, cheeky builds but also wonky tech transitions and fakeouts. It always felt rather clever and calculated with him rather than just outright gambles, I enjoyed that

I’ve been on record many times as saying he was the biggest victim of Legacy’s changes as they really compressed the period where he traditionally worked his magic.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10325 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-12-06 23:53:15
December 06 2024 23:52 GMT
#29
On December 07 2024 08:49 WombaT wrote:
Some cheese is also total bullshit and not fun to watch. There’s also the whole playing the game to consider,

For me someone like sOs really hit the sweet spot. He did a lot of funky stuff, cheeky builds but also wonky tech transitions and fakeouts. It always felt rather clever and calculated with him rather than just outright gambles, I enjoyed that

I’ve been on record many times as saying he was the biggest victim of Legacy’s changes as they really compressed the period where he traditionally worked his magic.


Yeah I think 12 worker start was overall good (would much prefer a 9 worker start though to bring back some openers/gas timings/early aggro builds for hard reads), but that "boring" time with no action happening can be very important and interesting when it comes to their builds and strategies...

There's more action now but i feel like most games are so similar, it's hard to get excited as much
Of course, if there was another GSL season, we'd be seeing more prepared builds and stuff, so we have to keep that in mind too.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Riquiz
Profile Joined June 2011
Netherlands402 Posts
December 07 2024 01:13 GMT
#30
At least once from both sides in any series.
Caster man does casting on yt/RiquizCasts
BlazingGlory
Profile Joined February 2010
Bulgaria854 Posts
December 07 2024 19:44 GMT
#31
I like quality cheese. When a good new brand comes out are my happiest times.
Fanatic-Templar
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada5819 Posts
December 07 2024 22:57 GMT
#32
Difficult to answer. Asked by itself, I feel like I'd want to see cheese in fewer than half the games, but at the same time, if there's a best of three and both players cheese, that feels perfectly reasonable, despite hitting the 60%-80% bracket.

It depends a lot on the diversity of cheese. If a cheese strat is too dominant, it gets old way faster than macro games.
I bear this sig to commemorate the loss of the team icon that commemorated Oversky's 2008-2009 Proleague Round 1 performance.
egrimm
Profile Joined September 2011
Poland1199 Posts
December 08 2024 09:09 GMT
#33
On December 07 2024 08:49 WombaT wrote:
Some cheese is also total bullshit and not fun to watch. There’s also the whole playing the game to consider,

For me someone like sOs really hit the sweet spot. He did a lot of funky stuff, cheeky builds but also wonky tech transitions and fakeouts. It always felt rather clever and calculated with him rather than just outright gambles, I enjoyed that

I’ve been on record many times as saying he was the biggest victim of Legacy’s changes as they really compressed the period where he traditionally worked his magic.


Couldn't agree more.
Ever since the introduction of 12 worker start, I always feel like there is something missing from SC2, and I really miss sOs. Unfortunately there is nobody in the scene now, who would come close to providing similar excitement from seeing how the strategy unravels during the game
sOs TY PartinG
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States653 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-12-08 14:00:00
December 08 2024 12:31 GMT
#34
On December 08 2024 04:44 BlazingGlory wrote:
I like quality cheese. When a good new brand comes out are my happiest times.



Same bruh, when Has made a deep run with the paperjack cheese, proxy immortal at nat, I freaking donated $200 USD to him right away, lmao that stuff was epic

And at the same time I am fucking going RAGGGGGGING when I get proxy robo on ladder :S cause is cancer bo1
Mostly a troll, bi-polar by design, occasionally brain malfunction. Please forgive me. xD
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States653 Posts
December 09 2024 10:22 GMT
#35
But I guess the people who still play the game likes the game the way it is right now I guess. So who knows :D Move on for the rest of us "haters"
Mostly a troll, bi-polar by design, occasionally brain malfunction. Please forgive me. xD
Sorathez
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Australia209 Posts
December 09 2024 10:34 GMT
#36
On December 05 2024 00:41 SmoKim wrote:
Some, but not all the time

early WoL was fun but... well also kinda stupid sometimes.

And i will never like cheese in the last game of a final. Im boring and want a descent long "macro" game
2012 GSL Season 2 Finals, Squirtle vs Mvp would like a word.
There's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep trying till you run out of cake.
SiarX
Profile Joined December 2021
102 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-12-10 00:39:29
December 10 2024 00:39 GMT
#37
Often. Most of time. Standard game are getting boring.
BonitiilloO
Profile Joined June 2013
Dominican Republic614 Posts
December 11 2024 14:59 GMT
#38
all of this started to change with the following

*the 12 worker introduction.
*the stubbornness of BIG MAP the better.
*Nerfing some builds or units way to much like Terran needing a Supply to build a barrack
*Scouting is way to ez with that many workers and zerg have always a safe spot to place a OVI
*Map design are made with macro in mind.

WOL maps were good for fun and cheese games.
How may help u?
derkopf
Profile Joined July 2004
Germany77 Posts
December 12 2024 07:45 GMT
#39
depends heavily on the context.
I would choose the best of five as a “normal“ and I think one game in these should be kind of cheesy. One over five equals 0,2 which translates into 20%.
20%.
fastflash
Profile Joined December 2024
1 Post
Last Edited: 2024-12-13 05:40:23
December 13 2024 05:40 GMT
#40
Bot edit.

User was banned for this post.
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