EPTAs an esports viewer, how often would you like to see all-…
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TL.net Bot
TL.net132 Posts
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
early WoL was fun but... well also kinda stupid sometimes. And i will never like cheese in the last game of a final. Im boring and want a descent long "macro" game | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25955 Posts
But if cheese is too potent it can make games feel a bit coinflippy and frustrating, you can have too much of a good thing too. | ||
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Starcloud
138 Posts
30% "normal" macro games 30% prepared strategies 20% all-ins (6min+) 20% early game shenanigans, cheeses Of course these things overlap each other somewhat, but around those would be my selections, if the players are somewhat equally skilled. | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States674 Posts
Brood war in early days was extremely fun to watch for this, especially in a bo7 and bo5, where ForGG and others all thrived at preparing certain strategy in some maps. Also the map variation in brood war is far better than StarCraft 2, SC2 just feels super dull on map design, it doesn't incentivize for more creative play, it's actually super boring to watch sometime really. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16095 Posts
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Ciaus237
South Africa286 Posts
On December 05 2024 02:33 Vindicare605 wrote: In any Best of 3, I expect to see at least one game of cheese. So I'd say 33% sounds like a nice number. Yeah, about 1/3rd is good to me too. I think having the game be such a pure speedfest as it is now is not completely ideal. Rewarding the skillset of the Rogue's and sOs's of the world is good to me (not to diss Rogue's mechanics, his multitasking is godly, but outbraining Clem micro is just not something the current iteration of the game allows for much). | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2282 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1227 Posts
I would also say that SC2, having not that much diversity in openings, needs these kind of allins to keep everyone on their toes. In WC3 as a comparison, I'm fine with much fewer T1 Allins (around 10% I would say), because I would rather prefer different Hero-Openings. | ||
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RenSC2
United States1069 Posts
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Agh
United States1006 Posts
On December 05 2024 02:20 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote: I like when the game has decision to make about "bluffing" and "gamble" if everything is as current SC2 is mapped out as it is ...... There really isn't much mind game going on. Cause the greedy player always win anyway. It kills the fun of it. Also the map variation in brood war is far better than StarCraft 2, SC2 just feels super dull on map design, it doesn't incentivize for more creative play, it's actually super boring to watch sometime really. Most attempts at map creativity recently have just skewed results for T or Z. Ironically the most plain maps have produced the best games. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3445 Posts
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Blitzball04
191 Posts
But for years now most games are all very predictable macro builds For me, usually I skip/fast forward for the 7 minutes of every tvz games since I know nothing significant happens. Tvt is usually a skip for me (boring matchup). I usually watch any Protoss games since games involving protoss have a higher chance of non macro games | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6989 Posts
That said, cheese and all-in strategies don't always end games. Sometimes it becomes a great clown fiesta base trade chaos and that is just entertaining! | ||
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Ideas
United States8141 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13990 Posts
Plus what I would argue was the most important game in SC2 history (Mvp v Squirtle G7) was only possible through the guts tenacity and bravado that only cheese can create | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16889 Posts
I love how some players had no problem going "all in" at any second of a game versus players who try to turn the game into a 2 hour SimCity macro contest. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4225 Posts
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Weavel
Finland9221 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16095 Posts
On December 06 2024 05:28 Weavel wrote: 81% to 100% of games should be cheese. There is a reason BitByBit and ActionJesuz are legends. Based. | ||
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rwala
324 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6989 Posts
On December 06 2024 21:31 rwala wrote: Lots of reasonable responses! The more interesting/important question is what % of games do you want to see go late game (let’s say 25+ mins). This to me approaches 0, maybe 10% if I’m being generous. I really dislike watching two armies tap dance around a map flirting and backing away like anxious pre-teens until the singular, often anti-climactic game-ending fight, There are some TvZs that take on a more interesting late game character, but all the other match-ups feel like this most of the time late game. You probably need to incentivize more cheese and all-ins or at least very sharp mid-game timing attacks to avoid this. Or perhaps create maps with more pathways to the third and fourth bases/fewer chokepoints. Well that depends a lot on who is playing. I can watch Serral - Clem all day everyday every lenght. Serral - Maru on the other hand I would rather end sooner than later. PvZ super lategame is kinda always a bit snoozy while TvT can be interesting and so on | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States674 Posts
SC2 has not been delivering the same excitement for ages now. It's kind of "boring" too predictable. I don't necessarily believe the Cheese strategy is a solution to the problem. I would say the game is a bit too figured out, and you only have 2 player duking it out with 2 brain and 4 hands. It's all on the 2 player's ability and arsenal to do something. So I am not sure what's really lacking. Deep in my heart I am still an RTS nerd. I think the genre could use some creative makeover to deliver more excitement for both the player and viewer. I do feel like the balance of SC2 went to a really bad way by balancing by the PRO, for the sake of "BALANCE(NO RNG)" Also not to mention that Clem and Serral just got way too good at this. And also feels like the Korean players just arn't as motivated as they once were, or maybe because not as many playing so not as many practicing partners. And whatever have you, that is beyond my knowledge. I think the issue is there are way too many mechanics in the game that is too good at making the map revealed, you cannot hide anything virtually. that's the problem, it's like playing RTS without fog of war. Scouting is too cheap in SC2 it feels like and it's very hard to block scouting. Thinking about the CS2 matches, it was the fog of war, information gathering and push and pull that's really exciting to see. And it's super easy to understand. So at end of the day I think what we really need to solve is Information as a resource needs to be nerfedddddddddd, it's tooooooo cheappp and tooooo strong right now. | ||
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aringadingding
478 Posts
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SehWho
69 Posts
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States674 Posts
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_fool
Netherlands678 Posts
I vote 66% cheese. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25955 Posts
For me someone like sOs really hit the sweet spot. He did a lot of funky stuff, cheeky builds but also wonky tech transitions and fakeouts. It always felt rather clever and calculated with him rather than just outright gambles, I enjoyed that I’ve been on record many times as saying he was the biggest victim of Legacy’s changes as they really compressed the period where he traditionally worked his magic. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10363 Posts
On December 07 2024 08:49 WombaT wrote: Some cheese is also total bullshit and not fun to watch. There’s also the whole playing the game to consider, For me someone like sOs really hit the sweet spot. He did a lot of funky stuff, cheeky builds but also wonky tech transitions and fakeouts. It always felt rather clever and calculated with him rather than just outright gambles, I enjoyed that I’ve been on record many times as saying he was the biggest victim of Legacy’s changes as they really compressed the period where he traditionally worked his magic. Yeah I think 12 worker start was overall good (would much prefer a 9 worker start though to bring back some openers/gas timings/early aggro builds for hard reads), but that "boring" time with no action happening can be very important and interesting when it comes to their builds and strategies... There's more action now but i feel like most games are so similar, it's hard to get excited as much Of course, if there was another GSL season, we'd be seeing more prepared builds and stuff, so we have to keep that in mind too. | ||
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Riquiz
Netherlands402 Posts
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BlazingGlory
Bulgaria855 Posts
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
It depends a lot on the diversity of cheese. If a cheese strat is too dominant, it gets old way faster than macro games. | ||
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egrimm
Poland1199 Posts
On December 07 2024 08:49 WombaT wrote: Some cheese is also total bullshit and not fun to watch. There’s also the whole playing the game to consider, For me someone like sOs really hit the sweet spot. He did a lot of funky stuff, cheeky builds but also wonky tech transitions and fakeouts. It always felt rather clever and calculated with him rather than just outright gambles, I enjoyed that I’ve been on record many times as saying he was the biggest victim of Legacy’s changes as they really compressed the period where he traditionally worked his magic. Couldn't agree more. Ever since the introduction of 12 worker start, I always feel like there is something missing from SC2, and I really miss sOs. Unfortunately there is nobody in the scene now, who would come close to providing similar excitement from seeing how the strategy unravels during the game  | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States674 Posts
On December 08 2024 04:44 BlazingGlory wrote: I like quality cheese. When a good new brand comes out are my happiest times. Same bruh, when Has made a deep run with the paperjack cheese, proxy immortal at nat, I freaking donated $200 USD to him right away, lmao that stuff was epic And at the same time I am fucking going RAGGGGGGING when I get proxy robo on ladder :S cause is cancer bo1 | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States674 Posts
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Sorathez
Australia209 Posts
On December 05 2024 00:41 SmoKim wrote: 2012 GSL Season 2 Finals, Squirtle vs Mvp would like a word.Some, but not all the time early WoL was fun but... well also kinda stupid sometimes. And i will never like cheese in the last game of a final. Im boring and want a descent long "macro" game | ||
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SiarX
104 Posts
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic626 Posts
*the 12 worker introduction. *the stubbornness of BIG MAP the better. *Nerfing some builds or units way to much like Terran needing a Supply to build a barrack *Scouting is way to ez with that many workers and zerg have always a safe spot to place a OVI *Map design are made with macro in mind. WOL maps were good for fun and cheese games. | ||
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derkopf
Germany81 Posts
I would choose the best of five as a “normal“ and I think one game in these should be kind of cheesy. One over five equals 0,2 which translates into 20%. 20%. | ||
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fastflash
1 Post
User was banned for this post. | ||
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Sinuui
1 Post
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CicadaSC
United States1815 Posts
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angry_maia
327 Posts
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Amir9
4 Posts
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patermatrix
64 Posts
On December 09 2024 19:34 Sorathez wrote: 2012 GSL Season 2 Finals, Squirtle vs Mvp would like a word. I can evoke goosebumps by just thinking about that game. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3445 Posts
I don't agree that 9 worker start or smth would fix the problem, though if it's what is needed to get back 4 player maps, then I think we should do it. I think a better fix for the current game is to remove the first 50 minerals, so that it's possible to get out on the map quicker, it's better for scouting, say if we have 4 player maps, and your first pylon can be placed farther from your main without as much delay as it otherwise would've. Another good change would be to remove 2 mineral fields from every expansion(mains not included). And to increase the number of minerals on the fat patches, vespine should be left as is. This would decrease the power of expanding leaving more room to do timings, and even 1 base builds. There's a big difference between doubling your income and almost doubling, also the main would be more powerful lasting longer on the fat fields. I think we can all agree that currently the maxed out situation happens too often. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25955 Posts
On January 04 2025 03:30 ejozl wrote: In hots and wol the late game was always when the casters got most excited, because it happened rarely. It's the opposite now, casters get the most excited about cheese these days, because it's almost a lost art. Ppl still rave about the classic dt strat, and it wasn't even that unthinkable or even that great of a game, but I guess it was a rly needed moment. I don't agree that 9 worker start or smth would fix the problem, though if it's what is needed to get back 4 player maps, then I think we should do it. I think a better fix for the current game is to remove the first 50 minerals, so that it's possible to get out on the map quicker, it's better for scouting, say if we have 4 player maps, and your first pylon can be placed farther from your main without as much delay as it otherwise would've. Another good change would be to remove 2 mineral fields from every expansion(mains not included). And to increase the number of minerals on the fat patches, vespine should be left as is. This would decrease the power of expanding leaving more room to do timings, and even 1 base builds. There's a big difference between doubling your income and almost doubling, also the main would be more powerful lasting longer on the fat fields. I think we can all agree that currently the maxed out situation happens too often. Yeah interesting ideas there | ||
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PsiBlade1010
13 Posts
I enjoy watching the strategy of the macro games, slowy inching an advantage here , an advantage there. Cheese for me is gambling, it isnt trying to find the best strategy but rolling the dice. Its fun from time to time, but not to often. | ||
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