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TLMC to Coordinate Map Rotations

Forum Index > SC2 General
22 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 Next All

TLMC to Coordinate Map Rotations

Text byTL.net ESPORTS
Graphics byv1
April 15th, 2025 01:44 GMT
Continuing Map Rotations


Hi, this is Waxangel from TL.net, the head administrator of the TL.net Map Contest.

For several years, TLMC has helped Blizzard and ESL facilitate ladder map rotations. With ESL no longer directly involved in the map selection process, TLMC is stepping up to try and make sure seasonal map changes continue. Right now, we're in communication with Blizzard to rotate the map pool ahead of the EWC competitive cycle.

As our starting point, we've assembled a temporary, provisional map pool centered on TLMC #20 with minimal subjective input on our end. We've incorporated different factors and interests to try and get a rough impression of what maps are popular with the community. Of course, this is just a first step, and we will iterate based on feedback.

Provisional Map Pool #1

Top 3 community voted maps from TLMC #20 finalists
    Last Fantasy (see note below)
  • Persephone
  • Torches

Top 3 pro-player polled maps from TLMC #20 finalists (polled via the old ESL feedback chat)
  • Incorporeal
  • Tokamak
  • Magannatha

Top 3 most-played maps from the previous pool (Liquipedia stats)
  • Ley Lines
  • Whispers of Gold
  • Ultralove

(In accordance with 2024's pre-EWC rotation, we have started with a 3-old, 6-new structure.)

We welcome the broader community's comments, and will look to supplement the original TLMC #20 voting results with additional feedback. We may ask for specific feedback in the future, but feel free to use this thread for general map feedback in the meanwhile. Please check the finalists post or our public results sheet for more information on the TLMC #20 maps.

We have already received some initial feedback from progamers, and we will continue to be in communication with them during this crucial time for the competitive scene.

We also invite tournament organizers to play events on the provisional pool to help the community further evaluate the maps. We also encourage tournament organizers to continue experimenting with maps they find interesting and beneficial to their events, as we consider their map curation to be valuable feedback in itself.

By collecting feedback from various sources, we hope to ultimately arrive at a final pool of maps that can both breathe fresh air into the competitive scene, as well as be agreeable to various facets of the community.

Regarding 3+ player maps

As the topic of 3+ player maps has been controversial in the scene, especially among progamers, we'd like to comment specifically on Last Fantasy.

Last Fantasy is the first 3+ player map to be a TLMC finalist since 2021, and it immediately won the fan vote by a comfortable margin. Interestingly enough, the TLMC that last included 3+ player maps among the finalists—TLMC 15—did not see those maps perform particularly well in voting.

TLMC voting is hardly a perfect representation of the entire SC2 scene, but the recent result of Last Fantasy winning the community vote does appear meaningful. At the very least, it merits including the map in this initial, provisional pool, and listening to more feedback on it.

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TL+ Member
Avexyli
Profile Blog Joined April 2014
United States711 Posts
April 15 2025 02:13 GMT
#2
W changes.

Hoping this is the first of many steps for community collaboration to keep the scene going. The more we work together, the better the game is.
AVEX - Multi Winner, Finalist, Judge of the TeamLiquid Map Contests, Former SC:EVO Enviroment Artist & Multiplayer Game Design
CommanderChp
Profile Joined May 2021
United States13 Posts
April 15 2025 02:29 GMT
#3
Love to see it!
TLMC19 Finalist (Sacred Isle and Atlantis) TLMC20 Finalist (Persephone), TLMC21 Finalist (Taito Citadel, Talisman and Celestial Enclave), TLMC22 Finalist (Lumen, Washout, Rorschach, Verdant Temple)
sidasf
Profile Joined February 2023
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-04-15 03:11:53
April 15 2025 02:55 GMT
#4
Big news! That's a huge responsibility on the shoulders on TLMC. The lifeblood of the community is in your hands. My two cents is to be very careful with major game changing features because we have patches only once a year, and may not even have reliable patches or map rotations in the future. This is because they can have major impacts on balance that we will be unable to fix (See: ZvP for the past five months).

If I can be frank, two maps with healing shrines plus a 3-player is irresponsible and does a disservice to the SC2 community, who deserve not only fun games, but balanced games. These are game mechanics that are completely untested in SC2's recent history and has have potential balance effects and problems that have yet to be seen. Especially considering we only have three vetoes, I would like to see the amount of maps with healing shrines reduced, perhaps replace one with a "Normal" freestyle map.
I think three freestyle maps is perfect; the sweetspot-but three maps that have untested volatile mechanics is a bit much. I think it would be better to see 1 healing shrine map+1 3p+1 "normal" freestyle.

The Top 3 most-played maps from the previous pool is a great idea. Would love to see Ultra Love in the next map pool again. Magannatha and Tokamak are fantastic maps too.

Cheers.

edit: edited for accuracy
LaughNgamezYT
Profile Joined September 2020
30 Posts
April 15 2025 03:04 GMT
#5
Awesome!! TLMC is awesome and I hope TL can coordinate the balance too by testing tons and tons of potential changes with like a 50% community / 50% pro feedback ratio
Glorfindelio
Profile Joined October 2022
228 Posts
April 15 2025 03:14 GMT
#6
Really a fan of this, good jerbs!
Magnath10
Profile Joined February 2020
Egypt37 Posts
April 15 2025 04:42 GMT
#7
MAGANNATHA FANCLUB REJOICE
bela.mervado
Profile Joined December 2008
Hungary414 Posts
April 15 2025 06:00 GMT
#8
Wow, gogo TL, alive gaem!

Have you considered adding a 4th veto
or have Blizz increase a number somewhere in the config?
Seems to be a popular request.

Players' map preferences are not independent of the race, there are some imbalances affecting some races/matchups more. This can lead to users with same race having similar vetoes.

At the extreme, with 9 map pool and 4 vetoes, race A can have maps #1-4 vetoed, race B can have maps #5-8 vetoed, so only map #9 remains available for a certain A vs B matchup. Similarly with the old 7 map pool with 3 vetoes.

I can see the reason to keep vetoes at 3 max.
Other reason could be 'normal' code with some way hardcoded constants (even if it's configurable, some logic/consideration requires this value to be 3).
MJG
Profile Joined May 2018
United Kingdom1451 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-04-15 06:24:56
April 15 2025 06:24 GMT
#9
Well, that's one veto immediately predetermined for Last Fantasy...

It's good to know that map rotations are going to continue though!
puking up frothing vitriolic sarcastic spittle
sunflower36002
Profile Joined April 2025
8 Posts
April 15 2025 08:16 GMT
#10
--- Nuked ---
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland27236 Posts
April 15 2025 12:07 GMT
#11
Good stuff!
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Kashim
Profile Joined December 2013
Poland1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-04-15 16:48:39
April 15 2025 16:48 GMT
#12
nice Waxangel!
SC2 LP Staff, Aligulac Editor, Tournament Organiser and Admin @KashimSC2
Topin
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Peru10124 Posts
April 17 2025 01:40 GMT
#13
awesome!
i would define my style between a mix of ByuN, Maru and MKP
CicadaSC
Profile Joined January 2018
United States1976 Posts
April 18 2025 12:04 GMT
#14
i like the 3 returning maps, some good new maps, some diabolical ones i will definitely be vetoing. Lets not get too weird here.
Remember that we all come from a place of passion!!
CicadaSC
Profile Joined January 2018
United States1976 Posts
April 18 2025 12:05 GMT
#15
sc2 is old enough that we know what we love. the current map pool has some cool ;new; features but these proposed maps some take it too far imo.
Remember that we all come from a place of passion!!
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19371 Posts
April 20 2025 10:28 GMT
#16
This is great news. I love that we can experiment and be more brave with map picks. Thanks for the hard work!
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10380 Posts
April 20 2025 12:22 GMT
#17
Thank god for the end to racism towards 3 player maps

We have to keep in mind survivor's bias is a strong factor - players who liked 3 and 4 players maps are more likely to have left the scene and so their voices are less heard. When you only listen to the current voices, the game becomes more and more narrow and appealing to a smaller and smaller audience
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
8xbetapp1com
Profile Joined April 2025
1 Post
April 20 2025 12:50 GMT
#18
--- Nuked ---
OmniSkepticSC
Profile Joined November 2023
22 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-04-20 16:00:59
April 20 2025 15:58 GMT
#19
On April 15 2025 11:55 sidasf wrote:
If I can be frank, two maps with healing shrines plus a 3-player is irresponsible and does a disservice to the SC2 community, who deserve not only fun games
Sometimes I wonder if you're a bot given the sheer consistency of showing up to every single mapmaking thread to shit talk healing shrines. I'd really rather you'd not be frank. Go actually play on a map with shrines before commenting.

Contrary to picking future maps based on how often they were played in the last pool, there should actually be a rule saying the opposite:

The top 3 most played maps from the last pool should never be allowed to persist into the next successive pool.

Otherwise, you've just picked the most stale maps to make stale a second time.
MrIronGolem27
Profile Joined July 2020
United States255 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-04-20 21:43:52
April 20 2025 21:42 GMT
#20
Hi all. Thanks to TLMC for their continued efforts and for considering my finalist for inclusion in the ladder pool.

Considering that fact, I've redecorated Magannatha a bit.
HyperONE - StarCraft Evolution League organizer, SC: Evo Complete developer, mapmaker (author of Magannatha, TLMC19 2nd place, TLMC17 3rd+5th place), Liquipedia editor
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