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Canada8923 Posts
On May 13 2024 21:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: holy crap i just realized, yes why doesn't maxpax have to turn his webcam on when others have to in online tournaments?
In short, if it's either that or you don't have him, the organizers let it fly. Pretty sure he has taken financial penalties in Chinese tournaments because of it.
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France12737 Posts
On May 13 2024 21:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: holy crap i just realized, yes why doesn't maxpax have to turn his webcam on when others have to in online tournaments? He has to, but he pay penalties. It's the same in other sports, if you can afford to pay the fees, you can basically act however you want.
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On May 13 2024 12:56 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2024 10:07 Balnazza wrote:Finally, "the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player" - is clearly just the European fan in you talking. No, it isn't. If we talk beyond SC2 fans and just look at a general sense of Esports, Maru winning GSL doesn't mean anything. It's a small note. World Championships already attract more attention (not saying you can compare winning Katowice with Faker winning Worlds or anything), but the narrative of Serral "beating the koreans" is truely the thing that makes him famous, even now. Please also remember that if you don't know what GSL is, you would simply look at the prizepool...which would tell you "ah, this is probably not that important?" Doesn't say much about either of them, but it still remains a fact. C'mon man, if someone is into SC2 he knows Maru and he knows Serral. If someone isn't into SC2 but he's heard of Serral for whatever other reason, how is he relevant? Surely we're talking about interest from reasonably informed members of the community. Fame barely plays a part in the GOAT discussion, let alone fame among random folks. Btw am I having this conversation with a college kid? If so I'll stop.
Is the "college kid" (cute assumption btw) using too difficult of words for you or why is that?
To wrap that topic up: Please read the entire conversation. I mentioned Serral being "more widespread famous" in the context of who would be remembered in 50 years...which is a cute, insignificant argument Poopi and I were having. Of course "fame outside of the games community" is not an argument for GOATness, or lets say it is one, but it comes preeeetty far down the list and will never be the tiebreaker. But that wasn't the argument we were having.
But to make it clear: Yes, of course, anyone in the SC2 community knows Maru and Serral. Everyone in said community probably knows 99% of players who play any ESL Regional and/or WTL. The playerbase is too small to make the "do you know this MaSa-kid? I think he is the next thing, he is SO good"-kind of statements anymore. Anyone outside of the SC2 community (and that includes people who left 2014/15) probably have no idea who Maru is, because there is no reason to know him if you aren't into SC2. If you are interested in Esports in general, you might atleast heard about the Serral-sensation of 2018. But that is about it.
Maybe to demonstrate: For those people who never were interested in WC3, do you know (without looking it up) which two players entered the WCG Hall of Fame for WC3?
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United States1734 Posts
On May 13 2024 12:04 AlexGano wrote: I remember you said there would be a detailed article about why dark got #11, is it still on your schedule or it has been posted before?
That won't be happening any time soon. The TLDR is, that just like NesTea, Mvp etc recieved "demerits" for having short careers, how long a player played came into consideration as well. My issues with Dark were 1) inflated win rate in Code S due to some weird placements. 2) He has the second longest uninterpreted career behind Maru. Did he achieve enough over the course of his career given the opportunities he's enjoyed (compared to other players obviously)?
I had Dark as high as seven during my process, but some arbitrary decisions made during the planning stages (how to weigh things etc) were less than flattering when applied to someone with Dark's career profile. Had I chosen different parameters, he easily could have been higher. For example, If I was only concerned with collective career achievements, Dark would be fourth behind Maru, Serral, Rogue.
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United States1734 Posts
Double
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On May 13 2024 21:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: holy crap i just realized, yes why doesn't maxpax have to turn his webcam on when others have to in online tournaments? Maybe it's actually some kind of Danish-made AI algorithm playing, like AlphaGo in some Go tournaments or the old IBM Chess Programs in some Chess tournaments?
Probably not, though :3
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On May 12 2024 02:19 Mizenhauer wrote:MOD EDIT: Spoilering OP+ Show Spoiler +GOAT Addendum: Maru and the perception of Code SWith Code S fully underway, we find ourselves in an increasingly familiar situation. Maru, fresh off claiming his eighth Code S title, has already advanced to the Round of 8, and looks poised to win the tournament for a ninth time. Maru’s position as the undisputed best player in South Korea is far from surprising. Every truly great player leaves behind a legacy and Maru’s will inevitably be tied to his complete dominance of the most prestigious competition in StarCraft II history. Four titles ahead of the closest contender, Maru is the unquestioned king of Code S. But, given how absolute his reign has been, his success begs questions. One of which is, how do we evaluate Maru’s future success in a competition in which he has lapped the field time and again? While some might quibble about the current level of competition, Code S remains the gold standard when it comes to individual competition. There are events with larger prize pools and stiffer competition, but none can best Code S when it comes to historical significance and name value. Fourteen years ago, in the nascent days of Wings of Liberty, Mvp, NesTea and MC built their reputation on Code S titles. INnoVation, Zest and Rain continued that tradition—defying the odds by winning seasons of Code S where two thirds of the participants were viable championship contenders. Stats and Rogue added their names to the ledgers in Legacy of the Void and, even now, with an inarguably diminished scene, winning Code S secures you an indelible place in StarCraft II history. TY and Dark may have only won the competition twice, but those triumphs rank among the greatest accomplishments of their decorated careers. Maru earned his first Korean Individual League trophy in 2013, before doubling his trophy haul during Season 1 of SSL two years later. But, it wasn’t until 2018 that he finally captured the Code S title which had eluded him for eight years. He followed that up by winning the next three seasons, as well—instantly catapulting himself ahead of Mvp (who had held the record for most championships since 2011). Six years removed from his fourth title, Maru is the undisputed master of Code S. He has won eight of the 17 Seasons held from 2018 onwards. With another three second place finishes to his name, Maru has reached the finals of 65% of the seasons held over the past six years. And, while Maru already possessed one of the highest win percentages in Code S history at 61% by the end of 2020, the steady departure of viable contenders has ballooned his win rate to the verge of absurdity. While Maru’s grasp on Code S has gone largely uncontested since 2018, the retirement of TY and Stats in 2021, as well as Rogue in 2022 have only tightened his grip. Maru’s record in Code S since the start of 2022 is an astounding 82-42 (67%) in games and 34-12 (74%) in matches. His closest rival during this period, Dark, is 62-47 (57%) in games and 25-12 (68%) in matches. As it stands, Maru has won over 350 games in Code S—a mark that exceeds his closest competitor by more than 100. Overall, Maru has won four of the five seasons of Code S held since Rogue departed for the military. And, while some might point to the absence of four time champion as one of the reasons for Maru’s recent success, one can’t ignore that Maru pulled this trick when he won four seasons in a row back in 2018 and 2019. He shattered numerous records along the way—becoming the first player to win two consecutive seasons of Code S since NesTea did so in 2010, before increasing his trophy haul to four within the span of ten months. Maru matched NesTea in other ways, becoming the first player to sweep the finals of Code S since the IM Zerg mauled InCa in 2011. Maru tied soO’s record for the most consecutive final appearances (four) and broke Mvp’s record of three Code S titles. Season by season Maru climbed the ladder of the greatest players to ever participate in the competition, with each trophy drastically altering his career. His first victory was long overdue for someone of his talent. His second was the start of something special. His third put him level with Mvp and his fourth was his ascension to a tier all his own. Then again, it doesn’t feel like it did over a half decade ago. Maru’s first four titles were something out of an epic tale. He wasn’t just defeating his peers, he was grappling fate, logic and the weight of history into submission. His fifth title, the G5L, felt similarly profound—the realization of a collective dream a dozen years in the making. Nowadays, Maru’s wins border on deflating. Maru was never truly threatened in the most recent season of Code S. Even Cure and herO, the opponents against whom Maru faced off in the semifinals and finals respectively, only managed to steal one game between them. After that Maru took the stage and kissed the Code S trophy amid a shower of confetti for the eighth time. Simply put, he has transformed wonderment into inevitability. ![[image loading]](/staff/Mizenhauer/maru_win.jpg) I needed something to break up this massive block of text and this fits the bill Regardless of what some might insist, the majority of the best players in the world still hail from South Korea. These aren’t the “glory days” where 15 of the 16 qualifiers for the 2015 WCS Global Finals were Korean, Code S awarded over 100,000 dollars and weekenders were a feeding ground for Koreans traveling abroad. That era is gone, but Code S is littered with talented players and all time greats. In fact, while the last three “World Championship” quality events (IEM Katowice 2023, 2024 and Gamers8 2023) were won by foreigners, Koreans took up five of the eight quarterfinal spots and, by and large, outperformed their foreign opposition in the group stage. Serral, Reynor and Clem have illustrated they can compete and defeat top tier Korean pros, but the rest of the foreign scene struggles mightily with players like SHIN, ByuN or Classic—all of whom have had limited success in Code S over the past few years. Code S may not have as many competitors or the depth of talent it once had, but the results of Group B (and the impending Group of Death consisting of Cure, Stats, Dark and Rogue) prove that every victory, even those in the opening round, are hard fought and well deserved. Ten different players have reached the semifinals of Code S dating back to the first season of 2023. Maru and Cure managed to make it on three occasions but, outside of that, only GuMiho and Dark logged more than one appearance—with ByuN, Bunny, Classic, Solar, herO and Stats settling for a single trip. The honest truth is there isn’t a progamer in Korea capable of reliably defeating Maru at the moment. herO denied Maru the G5L only two years ago, but Maru’s 4-1 victory in the finals of the most recent season of Code S further illustrated the gulf between him and second best. There isn’t a Protoss in Korea who can rival herO, but even he is nothing more than fodder—at least in Code S. There is always a note of resignation when Maru wins Code S, but even the harshest critic has to admit his brilliance is undeniable. How many times have we watched Maru’s opponents shatter his economy, reset his tank count or get ahead on bases only for them to flail helplessly once Maru starts to work his magic? There is perhaps no better example of the discrepancy between Maru and his peers than Cure. Maru’s former teammate has been the second best Korean Terran since TY retired, but the two of them could never be confused for one another. Maru 5-0 record against Cure in offline Best of 5+ over the past four years is evidence enough. But when you take into account the fact that Maru’s chances of beating Cure in Best of 3 (70%) rises to an even more daunting 78% in a seven game series, it’s clear as day that Cure needs everything to break his way if he wants to win Code S—including dodging Maru. The same goes for Dark, who Aligulac gives a 37% chance of beating Maru in a Best of 7. This pattern also applies to herO, whose 4-1 defeat in Code S (which happens 15% of the time according to Aligulac) lines up nicely with Maru’s 56% chance of victory. For once, the eye test lines up with the math. Maru looks, feels, and is the favorite in every match he plays. All of this begs a question—if Maru’s triumphs in Code S feel so insubstantial, how do subsequent victories affect his legacy and his position as one of the greatest of all time? There is an argument to be made that future titles are simply gratuitous. How much does it matter if Maru retires with nine, 10 or 19 Code S titles? He has already long since claimed dominion over the event and, by extension, Korean StarCraft II. Alternatively, the fact that Maru outpaces his closest competitor (Rogue) by a full four Code S titles while simultaneously retaining his position as the most likely player to win the event going forward means each Championship has an exponential effect on his legacy rather than a linear one. After all, if Maru retired with twelve Code S titles while everyone else was left languishing with four or less, how could that not further Maru’s case? As much as some seek mitigating factors such as the lack of top tier talent, the relative dearth of competitive players compared to the past or the fact that many players’ pursuit of Maru was effectively ended prematurely by military service, Maru is the one winning Code S at a never before imagined rate—not Dark, not Cure and not herO. It’s Maru that continues to add to his unmatched trophy collection with each passing season. At the end of the day, Code S hasn’t changed all that much. The format has shifted and the prize money has decreased, but navigating the gauntlet that is Code S is as challenging a prospect as any that exists in the game today. The fact that Maru has won the event so often and with such apparent ease is a testament to his greatness and the continued significance of Code S. It’s tempting to say that the most prestigious event in StarCraft II is no longer about who qualifies or how balanced the game is at the time. That it’s not about who catches fire or who devises the most effective strategy. There are moments where it certainly seems that if Maru executes as he should and avoids some grave mistake along the way, that this Season of Code S is destined to become his for the ninth time. Fortunately, we only have to wait until June 27th to get our answer. Then we can start asking the same questions all over again. Writer: MizenhauerEditor: Mizenhauer
I feel like rating another Maru victory in Code S is as difficult as rating a Premier Serral trophy.
I think those accomplishments will only be truly measured if, after one or two decades of a stable prize pool in the regions, as well of a stable number of pro players active... We need a controled and stable enviroment for comparisons...
SCII has gone under way too many changes in its 14 years of existence - of which i have no complaints, cus they generate discussions and kinda create interesting varying stories.
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We can see - so far - that Reynor aint close to become a Serra/Maru like many predicted 3 years ago...
After a long time, we'll be able to see many more cases like that and have a much more profound grasp of how great are Maru and Serral
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gratz this post just jinxed maru, probably out in ro8 now
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SoCal8905 Posts
On May 13 2024 09:07 goldensail wrote: I want to divide this thread into 2 parts:
Part 1) GSL The fact that Korean returnees (from military service) like herO are still dominating says a lot about the former level of competitiveness of KR players - herO wasn't even the best Protoss before! So Maru's 4-peat in GSL '18/'19 back when Inno, Rogue, Dark, SOS, Stats, TY, Classic were all still at their prime, is the most impressive accomplishment of any SC2 player IMO.
Regarding the current scene: 1. Let's remember the most recent GSL showing by Reynor isn't his first attempt, nor his second, but his third - and he has never gone past round 1. 2. Personally I cannot take Maxpax seriously until he shows up offline or at least turns his cam on. What if he's looking at a real time cast during online play? I'm not accusing him of doing so, there's no evidence that this happens, but I don't understand why everyone else has to abide by a very reasonable rule and he doesn't? 3. Clem has moments of brilliance, but hasn't been stable enough e.g. he lost 0-3 to Firefly recently in WTL and it's not like he wasn't trying judging from how he looked on cam. 4. Olivera gave Maru a black eye in Kato '23 which is often used against the latter, but let's not forget he also beat Reynor and herO that day. Let's see if he can find his occasional magic in the upcoming Stars War event on his home court, but otherwise he's usually a RO8 player and not more.
In summary, with the exception of Serral, RoW still doesn't compare to Korea. If we have an international offline event today without regional quota, is it not reasonable to see 10~11 KR, 4~5 EU, and 1 Asian players making RO16? GSL, even in its current state, is still far more than "just another regional locked event".
Part 2) Maru 1. The international premier events that Maru participated in but didn't win (championship-wise) are basically all held in Europe/US, and home court/time zone is definitely an advantage for local players. Maru seemed more comfortable at WESGs for example, where the time difference is only 1 hr (between China and Korea). 2) Maru is notorious for trying different openings that often put him behind in the early game but then claws his way back. To me this makes watching his games more exciting (and scary). It also says something about his confidence i.e. he can goof and win anyway. 3) Maru has openly talked about his injuries since at least '21, and I can definitely see him slowing down with wear and tear. Injuries can be expected to affect micro-heavy Terrans very significantly and it must be frustrating. For him to still win title after title is testament to his skill - I mean the guy had a large patch on his shoulder during the most recent GSL finals and he dominated anyway. 2 Kato finals in a row is a dissappointment only for Maru - it would be an accomplishment for basically anyone else.
It's not my intention to diss anyone to pump Maru in this thread, but to celebrate the truly legendary SC2 player that he is. I don't mind one bit that he win another GSL, although I hope he perserves his arm well for a global event of the highest prize pool which he certainly deserves to win.
can't disagree with anything in this post.
it is true that the competition in Code S has been on a decline for a while now, but it is still above the foreign scene. i do my best to watch both ASL and GSL and I can't help but feel like BW continues to evolve while SC2 devolves. i just can't get excited about watching GSL anymore.
one last note about international events/travel. IIRC Reynor was in korea for several weeks practicing and laddering for this Code-S. I don't believe that most foreign SC2 players get more than a few days to adjust and for anyone that hasn't traveled to/from China, KR, JP, SEA, etc. you don't understand how rough it is compared to NA-EU travel.
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United States1734 Posts
On May 14 2024 03:04 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2024 02:19 Mizenhauer wrote:GOAT Addendum: Maru and the perception of Code SWith Code S fully underway, we find ourselves in an increasingly familiar situation. Maru, fresh off claiming his eighth Code S title, has already advanced to the Round of 8, and looks poised to win the tournament for a ninth time. Maru’s position as the undisputed best player in South Korea is far from surprising. Every truly great player leaves behind a legacy and Maru’s will inevitably be tied to his complete dominance of the most prestigious competition in StarCraft II history. Four titles ahead of the closest contender, Maru is the unquestioned king of Code S. But, given how absolute his reign has been, his success begs questions. One of which is, how do we evaluate Maru’s future success in a competition in which he has lapped the field time and again? While some might quibble about the current level of competition, Code S remains the gold standard when it comes to individual competition. There are events with larger prize pools and stiffer competition, but none can best Code S when it comes to historical significance and name value. Fourteen years ago, in the nascent days of Wings of Liberty, Mvp, NesTea and MC built their reputation on Code S titles. INnoVation, Zest and Rain continued that tradition—defying the odds by winning seasons of Code S where two thirds of the participants were viable championship contenders. Stats and Rogue added their names to the ledgers in Legacy of the Void and, even now, with an inarguably diminished scene, winning Code S secures you an indelible place in StarCraft II history. TY and Dark may have only won the competition twice, but those triumphs rank among the greatest accomplishments of their decorated careers. Maru earned his first Korean Individual League trophy in 2013, before doubling his trophy haul during Season 1 of SSL two years later. But, it wasn’t until 2018 that he finally captured the Code S title which had eluded him for eight years. He followed that up by winning the next three seasons, as well—instantly catapulting himself ahead of Mvp (who had held the record for most championships since 2011). Six years removed from his fourth title, Maru is the undisputed master of Code S. He has won eight of the 17 Seasons held from 2018 onwards. With another three second place finishes to his name, Maru has reached the finals of 65% of the seasons held over the past six years. And, while Maru already possessed one of the highest win percentages in Code S history at 61% by the end of 2020, the steady departure of viable contenders has ballooned his win rate to the verge of absurdity. While Maru’s grasp on Code S has gone largely uncontested since 2018, the retirement of TY and Stats in 2021, as well as Rogue in 2022 have only tightened his grip. Maru’s record in Code S since the start of 2022 is an astounding 82-42 (67%) in games and 34-12 (74%) in matches. His closest rival during this period, Dark, is 62-47 (57%) in games and 25-12 (68%) in matches. As it stands, Maru has won over 350 games in Code S—a mark that exceeds his closest competitor by more than 100. Overall, Maru has won four of the five seasons of Code S held since Rogue departed for the military. And, while some might point to the absence of four time champion as one of the reasons for Maru’s recent success, one can’t ignore that Maru pulled this trick when he won four seasons in a row back in 2018 and 2019. He shattered numerous records along the way—becoming the first player to win two consecutive seasons of Code S since NesTea did so in 2010, before increasing his trophy haul to four within the span of ten months. Maru matched NesTea in other ways, becoming the first player to sweep the finals of Code S since the IM Zerg mauled InCa in 2011. Maru tied soO’s record for the most consecutive final appearances (four) and broke Mvp’s record of three Code S titles. Season by season Maru climbed the ladder of the greatest players to ever participate in the competition, with each trophy drastically altering his career. His first victory was long overdue for someone of his talent. His second was the start of something special. His third put him level with Mvp and his fourth was his ascension to a tier all his own. Then again, it doesn’t feel like it did over a half decade ago. Maru’s first four titles were something out of an epic tale. He wasn’t just defeating his peers, he was grappling fate, logic and the weight of history into submission. His fifth title, the G5L, felt similarly profound—the realization of a collective dream a dozen years in the making. Nowadays, Maru’s wins border on deflating. Maru was never truly threatened in the most recent season of Code S. Even Cure and herO, the opponents against whom Maru faced off in the semifinals and finals respectively, only managed to steal one game between them. After that Maru took the stage and kissed the Code S trophy amid a shower of confetti for the eighth time. Simply put, he has transformed wonderment into inevitability. ![[image loading]](/staff/Mizenhauer/maru_win.jpg) I needed something to break up this massive block of text and this fits the bill Regardless of what some might insist, the majority of the best players in the world still hail from South Korea. These aren’t the “glory days” where 15 of the 16 qualifiers for the 2015 WCS Global Finals were Korean, Code S awarded over 100,000 dollars and weekenders were a feeding ground for Koreans traveling abroad. That era is gone, but Code S is littered with talented players and all time greats. In fact, while the last three “World Championship” quality events (IEM Katowice 2023, 2024 and Gamers8 2023) were won by foreigners, Koreans took up five of the eight quarterfinal spots and, by and large, outperformed their foreign opposition in the group stage. Serral, Reynor and Clem have illustrated they can compete and defeat top tier Korean pros, but the rest of the foreign scene struggles mightily with players like SHIN, ByuN or Classic—all of whom have had limited success in Code S over the past few years. Code S may not have as many competitors or the depth of talent it once had, but the results of Group B (and the impending Group of Death consisting of Cure, Stats, Dark and Rogue) prove that every victory, even those in the opening round, are hard fought and well deserved. Ten different players have reached the semifinals of Code S dating back to the first season of 2023. Maru and Cure managed to make it on three occasions but, outside of that, only GuMiho and Dark logged more than one appearance—with ByuN, Bunny, Classic, Solar, herO and Stats settling for a single trip. The honest truth is there isn’t a progamer in Korea capable of reliably defeating Maru at the moment. herO denied Maru the G5L only two years ago, but Maru’s 4-1 victory in the finals of the most recent season of Code S further illustrated the gulf between him and second best. There isn’t a Protoss in Korea who can rival herO, but even he is nothing more than fodder—at least in Code S. There is always a note of resignation when Maru wins Code S, but even the harshest critic has to admit his brilliance is undeniable. How many times have we watched Maru’s opponents shatter his economy, reset his tank count or get ahead on bases only for them to flail helplessly once Maru starts to work his magic? There is perhaps no better example of the discrepancy between Maru and his peers than Cure. Maru’s former teammate has been the second best Korean Terran since TY retired, but the two of them could never be confused for one another. Maru 5-0 record against Cure in offline Best of 5+ over the past four years is evidence enough. But when you take into account the fact that Maru’s chances of beating Cure in Best of 3 (70%) rises to an even more daunting 78% in a seven game series, it’s clear as day that Cure needs everything to break his way if he wants to win Code S—including dodging Maru. The same goes for Dark, who Aligulac gives a 37% chance of beating Maru in a Best of 7. This pattern also applies to herO, whose 4-1 defeat in Code S (which happens 15% of the time according to Aligulac) lines up nicely with Maru’s 56% chance of victory. For once, the eye test lines up with the math. Maru looks, feels, and is the favorite in every match he plays. All of this begs a question—if Maru’s triumphs in Code S feel so insubstantial, how do subsequent victories affect his legacy and his position as one of the greatest of all time? There is an argument to be made that future titles are simply gratuitous. How much does it matter if Maru retires with nine, 10 or 19 Code S titles? He has already long since claimed dominion over the event and, by extension, Korean StarCraft II. Alternatively, the fact that Maru outpaces his closest competitor (Rogue) by a full four Code S titles while simultaneously retaining his position as the most likely player to win the event going forward means each Championship has an exponential effect on his legacy rather than a linear one. After all, if Maru retired with twelve Code S titles while everyone else was left languishing with four or less, how could that not further Maru’s case? As much as some seek mitigating factors such as the lack of top tier talent, the relative dearth of competitive players compared to the past or the fact that many players’ pursuit of Maru was effectively ended prematurely by military service, Maru is the one winning Code S at a never before imagined rate—not Dark, not Cure and not herO. It’s Maru that continues to add to his unmatched trophy collection with each passing season. At the end of the day, Code S hasn’t changed all that much. The format has shifted and the prize money has decreased, but navigating the gauntlet that is Code S is as challenging a prospect as any that exists in the game today. The fact that Maru has won the event so often and with such apparent ease is a testament to his greatness and the continued significance of Code S. It’s tempting to say that the most prestigious event in StarCraft II is no longer about who qualifies or how balanced the game is at the time. That it’s not about who catches fire or who devises the most effective strategy. There are moments where it certainly seems that if Maru executes as he should and avoids some grave mistake along the way, that this Season of Code S is destined to become his for the ninth time. Fortunately, we only have to wait until June 27th to get our answer. Then we can start asking the same questions all over again. Writer: MizenhauerEditor: Mizenhauer I feel like rating another Maru victory in Code S is as difficult as rating a Premier Serral trophy. I think those accomplishments will only be truly measured if, after one or two decades of a stable prize pool in the regions, as well of a stable number of pro players active... We need a controled and stable enviroment for comparisons... SCII has gone under way too many changes in its 14 years of existence - of which i have no complaints, cus they generate discussions and kinda create interesting varying stories.
Some mod edit this so that the article is spoilered. This is such an eyesore.
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France12737 Posts
On May 14 2024 03:06 Locutos wrote: We can see - so far - that Reynor aint close to become a Serra/Maru like many predicted 3 years ago...
After a long time, we'll be able to see many more cases like that and have a much more profound grasp of how great are Maru and Serral
I mean Reynor is gonna peak for the 1 million $ tournament and win it, then people will forget about Serral!
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Canada8923 Posts
On May 13 2024 09:07 goldensail wrote: I want to divide this thread into 2 parts:
Part 1) GSL The fact that Korean returnees (from military service) like herO are still dominating says a lot about the former level of competitiveness of KR players - herO wasn't even the best Protoss before! So Maru's 4-peat in GSL '18/'19 back when Inno, Rogue, Dark, SOS, Stats, TY, Classic were all still at their prime, is the most impressive accomplishment of any SC2 player IMO.
Regarding the current scene: 1. Let's remember the most recent GSL showing by Reynor isn't his first attempt, nor his second, but his third - and he has never gone past round 1. 2. Personally I cannot take Maxpax seriously until he shows up offline or at least turns his cam on. What if he's looking at a real time cast during online play? I'm not accusing him of doing so, there's no evidence that this happens, but I don't understand why everyone else has to abide by a very reasonable rule and he doesn't? 3. Clem has moments of brilliance, but hasn't been stable enough e.g. he lost 0-3 to Firefly recently in WTL and it's not like he wasn't trying judging from how he looked on cam. 4. Olivera gave Maru a black eye in Kato '23 which is often used against the latter, but let's not forget he also beat Reynor and herO that day. Let's see if he can find his occasional magic in the upcoming Stars War event on his home court, but otherwise he's usually a RO8 player and not more.
In summary, with the exception of Serral, RoW still doesn't compare to Korea. If we have an international offline event today without regional quota, is it not reasonable to see 10~11 KR, 4~5 EU, and 1 Asian players making RO16? GSL, even in its current state, is still far more than "just another regional locked event".
Part 2) Maru 1. The international premier events that Maru participated in but didn't win (championship-wise) are basically all held in Europe/US, and home court/time zone is definitely an advantage for local players. Maru seemed more comfortable at WESGs for example, where the time difference is only 1 hr (between China and Korea). 2) Maru is notorious for trying different openings that often put him behind in the early game but then claws his way back. To me this makes watching his games more exciting (and scary). It also says something about his confidence i.e. he can goof and win anyway. 3) Maru has openly talked about his injuries since at least '21, and I can definitely see him slowing down with wear and tear. Injuries can be expected to affect micro-heavy Terrans very significantly and it must be frustrating. For him to still win title after title is testament to his skill - I mean the guy had a large patch on his shoulder during the most recent GSL finals and he dominated anyway. 2 Kato finals in a row is a dissappointment only for Maru - it would be an accomplishment for basically anyone else.
It's not my intention to diss anyone to pump Maru in this thread, but to celebrate the truly legendary SC2 player that he is. I don't mind one bit that he win another GSL, although I hope he perserves his arm well for a global event of the highest prize pool which he certainly deserves to win.
Interesting post.
I'll push back a bit on the home turf stuff though. If we are to remove Maru from the equation for a second, I don't think there is a case that there are any strong "home turf" advantage in SC2. Apart from a couple of cases (Thorzain winning in Stockholm for example), There isn't anything telling us that Europeans do better in Europe, Americans and Canadians better in NA events, and Chinese/Koreans better in Korea. We've had Koreans who seemed to play better abroad (MMA, TaeJa, Solar, sOs...), and even some foreigners who produced their career best in Korea (Elazer, Scarlett, Jinro, arguably Neeb).
We can say that Maru, in particular, has problems in foreign events, but not really that it's harder for Koreans to win foreign events. Certain players play better in certain formats/conditions/environments, but I don't think there's necessarily one that necessarily favors players from one region above another.
I would argue, for example, that Inno never had a problem with abroad tournaments, but he did have a big problem playing big matches in front of big crowds, which mostly happened outside of Korea. You could reasonably pose a similar hypothesis about Maru, who only ever won his initial OSL in front of a bigger crowd.
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On May 14 2024 06:22 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2024 09:07 goldensail wrote: I want to divide this thread into 2 parts:
Part 1) GSL The fact that Korean returnees (from military service) like herO are still dominating says a lot about the former level of competitiveness of KR players - herO wasn't even the best Protoss before! So Maru's 4-peat in GSL '18/'19 back when Inno, Rogue, Dark, SOS, Stats, TY, Classic were all still at their prime, is the most impressive accomplishment of any SC2 player IMO.
Regarding the current scene: 1. Let's remember the most recent GSL showing by Reynor isn't his first attempt, nor his second, but his third - and he has never gone past round 1. 2. Personally I cannot take Maxpax seriously until he shows up offline or at least turns his cam on. What if he's looking at a real time cast during online play? I'm not accusing him of doing so, there's no evidence that this happens, but I don't understand why everyone else has to abide by a very reasonable rule and he doesn't? 3. Clem has moments of brilliance, but hasn't been stable enough e.g. he lost 0-3 to Firefly recently in WTL and it's not like he wasn't trying judging from how he looked on cam. 4. Olivera gave Maru a black eye in Kato '23 which is often used against the latter, but let's not forget he also beat Reynor and herO that day. Let's see if he can find his occasional magic in the upcoming Stars War event on his home court, but otherwise he's usually a RO8 player and not more.
In summary, with the exception of Serral, RoW still doesn't compare to Korea. If we have an international offline event today without regional quota, is it not reasonable to see 10~11 KR, 4~5 EU, and 1 Asian players making RO16? GSL, even in its current state, is still far more than "just another regional locked event".
Part 2) Maru 1. The international premier events that Maru participated in but didn't win (championship-wise) are basically all held in Europe/US, and home court/time zone is definitely an advantage for local players. Maru seemed more comfortable at WESGs for example, where the time difference is only 1 hr (between China and Korea). 2) Maru is notorious for trying different openings that often put him behind in the early game but then claws his way back. To me this makes watching his games more exciting (and scary). It also says something about his confidence i.e. he can goof and win anyway. 3) Maru has openly talked about his injuries since at least '21, and I can definitely see him slowing down with wear and tear. Injuries can be expected to affect micro-heavy Terrans very significantly and it must be frustrating. For him to still win title after title is testament to his skill - I mean the guy had a large patch on his shoulder during the most recent GSL finals and he dominated anyway. 2 Kato finals in a row is a dissappointment only for Maru - it would be an accomplishment for basically anyone else.
It's not my intention to diss anyone to pump Maru in this thread, but to celebrate the truly legendary SC2 player that he is. I don't mind one bit that he win another GSL, although I hope he perserves his arm well for a global event of the highest prize pool which he certainly deserves to win.
Interesting post. I'll push back a bit on the home turf stuff though. If we are to remove Maru from the equation for a second, I don't think there is a case that there are any strong "home turf" advantage in SC2. Apart from a couple of cases (Thorzain winning in Stockholm for example), There isn't anything telling us that Europeans do better in Europe, Americans and Canadians better in NA events, and Chinese/Koreans better in Korea. We've had Koreans who seemed to play better abroad (MMA, TaeJa, Solar, sOs...), and even some foreigners who produced their career best in Korea (Elazer, Scarlett, Jinro, arguably Neeb). We can say that Maru, in particular, has problems in foreign events, but not really that it's harder for Koreans to win foreign events. Certain players play better in certain formats/conditions/environments, but I don't think there's necessarily one that necessarily favors players from one region above another. I would argue, for example, that Inno never had a problem with abroad tournaments, but he did have a big problem playing big matches in front of big crowds, which mostly happened outside of Korea. You could reasonably pose a similar hypothesis about Maru, who only ever won his initial OSL in front of a bigger crowd.
I think you're onto something when you mentioned the effect of large crowds on Maru. In old days many major events construct private booths to allow players to better focus. Today no longer so. I believe Maru mentioned the oohs and ahs of the audience during Kato '23 final did affect his nerves. Maru also tend to do very well in online events where he plays from the comfort of his own home. Another peculiarity is he likes to take his shoes off while playing and he does that even in GSL (perhaps because it's more culturally acceptable there?). But in international events he doesn't from what I've seen.
Many of us have experienced jetlag disrupting sleep cycles, the impact varies by person and by occasion. For foreign players in GSL, they tend to have settled for a period of time so it matters less, but in EU/US weekenders I imagine the effect is more pronounced. Since I haven't collected the data I acknowledge this is a hypothesis. If we had more offline events in Asia we would be better able to assess - let's see how the European players do in the upcoming Stars War in China.
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Flighttime from Seoul to Dallas and Paris to Dallas are almost the same (12 vs. 10), yet Clem won ESL Dallas. The flight to Riyad is only 5-6h from Rome and 11h from Seoul, which of course is a big difference, but it is still not a particularly short flight. Yet Reynor won Gamers8. Helsinki to Seoul are almost 12h, yet Serral won GSL vs. the World (twice I believe?). Interestingly, the flighttime from Seoul and Helsinki towards Anaheim (BlizzCon) is almost identical, talking about like 10min difference. So Serral was equally as jetlagged as every korean who won the tournament before and afterwards. And of course we don't have to talk about the countless koreans who won all sorts of tournaments across the world. There is also the case of the last BlizzCon finals, when Blizzard had the grandious idea to do the Group Stage in Korea...so basically every European had to fly 12h to Korea and then 12h to Anaheim in the span of a week. Still Serral and Reynor made it to the Top 8, Reynor even reaching the Finals (please note: Not saying that particular affected the outcome of the tournament aka. Dark winning).
So I would say it is fair to assume that if this affect Marus performance, it is a Maru-Problem, not a Korean-Problem. Or maybe it really isn't about the jetlag at all, but just a question of audience. Does anyone remember how the audience-situation was at WESG?
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I am a Maru fanboy and I do not buy the jetlag excuse or audience, its not like Maru struggled and got stomped out of the tournament or something. He lost to a player who performed better, except for the time he choked to Oliveira, but still have a deep run at those tournament. Yes, you can say he hasnt won an international event outside of Asia, but that doesnt mean he has a performance issue, hes still EASILY the most accomplished Terran during these last couple years. I believe the issue has always been within Maru and his choice of opening, he either die or get massively behind in those important first couple minutes of the game, and he need to FIX it himself.
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Northern Ireland21958 Posts
I’m not sure how long he’s been suffering with them, but Maru himself said it’s not really an issue of travelling or being uncomfortable, just that his body struggles to aid him in keeping up peak form with more high-stakes games crammed into a shorter period of time.
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France12737 Posts
On May 14 2024 11:24 tigera6 wrote: I am a Maru fanboy and I do not buy the jetlag excuse or audience, its not like Maru struggled and got stomped out of the tournament or something. He lost to a player who performed better, except for the time he choked to Oliveira, but still have a deep run at those tournament. Yes, you can say he hasnt won an international event outside of Asia, but that doesnt mean he has a performance issue, hes still EASILY the most accomplished Terran during these last couple years. I believe the issue has always been within Maru and his choice of opening, he either die or get massively behind in those important first couple minutes of the game, and he need to FIX it himself. He didn’t choke vs Oliveira. Nor did herO and Reynor. The problem was not the pressure that Maru was feeling, the problem was that Oliveira was riding his momentum so high that nobody could beat him that day.
It has nothing to do with choking (which is basically failing to perform as expected under pressure), Maru played decently well, it was not a catastrophic performance per se.
Similarly, Serral didn’t choke vs RagnaroK that tournament, his ZvZ practice was just subpar.
Maru won like 9 games out of 10 in practice game vs Oliveira prior to Katowice. That’s sweet, but if Oliveira maintains his best form for 4 games he can win a bo7. There was no player capable of stopping Oliveira that day.
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Northern Ireland21958 Posts
Maru was wholly capable of stopping Oliveira’s run, he just didn’t bring his absolute A game.
Which is an absolutely distinct thing in my mind from choking, absolutely. For whatever reason folks seem to apply the ‘choke’ tag very liberally
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Playing the exact same opening 3 games in a row against heavy counter build, resulting into 3 straight lost to a less skilled opponent is a "choke" in my book. If Maru was to play those games out properly, I would say he had a great shot at winning. And I do not use that word a lot, even when Maru suffered worse lost to Rogue, herO and recently Serral, I believe those were just him being outplayed by stronger opponent.
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