GOAT Addendum: Maru and the perception of Code S - Page 3

On May 13 2024 06:26 Poopi wrote:

Answer to the quote above
Maru is in a league of his own in terms of code S / longevity, but Serral is in the GOAT conversation now that he has 3 World Championships and has been the most feared foreign player since 2018 (or one of the most feared).

The problem is exactly the point of the topic: Serral won't ever participate in code S (and code S is becoming less and less prestigious / financially interesting, so only the true warriors like Reynor or the usual foreigners + some newcomers commit to participate in it, huge props to him / them for trying it out). On the other hand, Maru has no reason NOT to participate in code S, but his problem is that he is too good so he is the favorite every time he enters the tournament.
At this point, winning code S is expected and anything but 1st place is a disappointment, since he is on paper the best KR player by far nowadays.

Personal opinion as a starcraft 2 fan / follower of the scene since WoL:

I personally think Maru should keep competing in code S for the money (his legacy in the tournament is already done), and try to win the tournament in Saudi Arabia not for the "WC" prestige, but rather just because it's a lot of money.

On the other hand, someone like Reynor needs to win code S for his legacy, so it's useful for him to try to win it. As for the money, lamborghini ain't cheap so he should keep winning the big $ tournaments as well.

For Serral though, his legacy is done too like Maru, so he should just farm money in the big tournaments he is allowed to enter I guess.

Foreigners who should try Code S would be Clem and HeroMarine, Clem because it would be useful for him on the international stage, and HeroMarine because he has a real shot at winning it given his intellect at figuring other players out. His mechanics ain't as good as Clem, but they are good enough to beat any player in the world if his plan is thought out enough.

On May 13 2024 06:44 Mizenhauer wrote:


This is one of the most absurd things i have ever read. Rough....

On May 13 2024 06:49 Poopi wrote:

Which part?

Edit: unless StarCraft 2 lives long enough competitively, this GOAT list should be the final written one with good enough quality and research put into it to be considered « canon » like stuchiu’s list.
So to all the Serral fans out there, sorry but the game is lost, people in 50 years that might read about StarCraft 2 and find this forum will conclude that the GOAT of this game was Maru.

We can thank Mizenhauer for writing history. The players made history, but the historians write History.

On May 13 2024 09:00 Balnazza wrote:


As a history student myself I can tell you that historians DO NOT write History, they analyze it. And that analysis can always be overturned, even when there are no new facts presented, happened a lot, will always happen.
And random people looking into this game in 50 years won't read a collection of long articles to know who the GOAT was, they would just look up the very raw numbers. Which would present Serral on top with already two or three (depending on the count) World Championships and the most money earned (as of yet of course, the EWC might change a lot of that).

Combined with the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player...Maru doesn't have particularly good odds to survive the test of time.

On May 13 2024 09:19 Poopi wrote:

I guess we will see in 50 years then?
If we are both still alive then, and you were right, I will give you something symbolic. If you are a young student in history, there are decent odds that we might still be alive in 50 years so this is a good bet to take. Are you in?
If I end up being right I don’t need you to give me anything, Maru being considered GOAT 50 years from now would be a good enough gift.

Finally, "the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player" - is clearly just the European fan in you talking.

On May 12 2024 06:01 Ronski wrote:
The GSL has always been a global tournament in name only. A tournament being held over a long period of time where each match takes place in a studio automatically weeds out majority of the world and only domestic players can reliably participate.

If there was a GSL style tournament but instead held in Europe or America majority of the players would be Europeans or Americans. The amount of Koreans willing to move and live in another continent with an entirely different culture and language they aren't fluent with would prevent most from participating, the same way the GSL keeps foreigners out due to how inconvenient it is to partake.

GSL has always been a tournament for Koreans held in korea with international competition allowed to partake if they are willing to deal with the inconveniences that come with it. While koreans are the best players in the world this made the GSL the hardest tournament to win and with price pool to match it became the most prestigious.

On May 13 2024 10:07 Balnazza wrote:


Considering my lifestyle I will most definetly be kicking the bucket long before, but deal.



No, it isn't. If we talk beyond SC2 fans and just look at a general sense of Esports, Maru winning GSL doesn't mean anything. It's a small note. World Championships already attract more attention (not saying you can compare winning Katowice with Faker winning Worlds or anything), but the narrative of Serral "beating the koreans" is truely the thing that makes him famous, even now. Please also remember that if you don't know what GSL is, you would simply look at the prizepool...which would tell you "ah, this is probably not that important?"
Doesn't say much about either of them, but it still remains a fact.

On May 13 2024 10:07 Balnazza wrote:


Considering my lifestyle I will most definetly be kicking the bucket long before, but deal.



No, it isn't. If we talk beyond SC2 fans and just look at a general sense of Esports, Maru winning GSL doesn't mean anything. It's a small note. World Championships already attract more attention (not saying you can compare winning Katowice with Faker winning Worlds or anything), but the narrative of Serral "beating the koreans" is truely the thing that makes him famous, even now. Please also remember that if you don't know what GSL is, you would simply look at the prizepool...which would tell you "ah, this is probably not that important?"
Doesn't say much about either of them, but it still remains a fact.

On May 13 2024 09:07 goldensail wrote:
I want to divide this thread into 2 parts:

Part 1) GSL
The fact that Korean returnees (from military service) like herO are still dominating says a lot about the former level of competitiveness of KR players - herO wasn't even the best Protoss before! So Maru's 4-peat in GSL '18/'19 back when Inno, Rogue, Dark, SOS, Stats, TY, Classic were all still at their prime, is the most impressive accomplishment of any SC2 player IMO.

Regarding the current scene:
1. Let's remember the most recent GSL showing by Reynor isn't his first attempt, nor his second, but his third - and he has never gone past round 1.
2. Personally I cannot take Maxpax seriously until he shows up offline or at least turns his cam on. What if he's looking at a real time cast during online play? I'm not accusing him of doing so, there's no evidence that this happens, but I don't understand why everyone else has to abide by a very reasonable rule and he doesn't?
3. Clem has moments of brilliance, but hasn't been stable enough e.g. he lost 0-3 to Firefly recently in WTL and it's not like he wasn't trying judging from how he looked on cam.
4. Olivera gave Maru a black eye in Kato '23 which is often used against the latter, but let's not forget he also beat Reynor and herO that day. Let's see if he can find his occasional magic in the upcoming Stars War event on his home court, but otherwise he's usually a RO8 player and not more.

In summary, with the exception of Serral, RoW still doesn't compare to Korea. If we have an international offline event today without regional quota, is it not reasonable to see 10~11 KR, 4~5 EU, and 1 Asian players making RO16? GSL, even in its current state, is still far more than "just another regional locked event".

Part 2) Maru
1. The international premier events that Maru participated in but didn't win (championship-wise) are basically all held in Europe/US, and home court/time zone is definitely an advantage for local players. Maru seemed more comfortable at WESGs for example, where the time difference is only 1 hr (between China and Korea).
2) Maru is notorious for trying different openings that often put him behind in the early game but then claws his way back. To me this makes watching his games more exciting (and scary). It also says something about his confidence i.e. he can goof and win anyway.
3) Maru has openly talked about his injuries since at least '21, and I can definitely see him slowing down with wear and tear. Injuries can be expected to affect micro-heavy Terrans very significantly and it must be frustrating. For him to still win title after title is testament to his skill - I mean the guy had a large patch on his shoulder during the most recent GSL finals and he dominated anyway. 2 Kato finals in a row is a dissappointment only for Maru - it would be an accomplishment for basically anyone else.

It's not my intention to diss anyone to pump Maru in this thread, but to celebrate the truly legendary SC2 player that he is. I don't mind one bit that he win another GSL, although I hope he perserves his arm well for a global event of the highest prize pool which he certainly deserves to win.

On May 13 2024 18:25 Comedy wrote:


in 50 years serral will be synonym with starcraft 2

In korea they wont even talk about starcraft 2 and just remember bw players

On May 13 2024 19:24 WombaT wrote:

Happy cake day!

That said I wish people wouldn’t make assertions like this.

Maru prior to his 4peat, which I might add is also in the epoch of Serral becoming relevant was actually pretty underrated IMO. SC2 has always been pretty much a foreign affair as terms of audience. Hey I watched and dug Proleague but a hell of a lot of SC2 viewers didn’t. Of the Starleagues, the more casual fan would have been far more likely to check out the GSL than SSL or w/e

Mvp was the guy, and he popped over to things like MLGs and won multiple international tournaments. In a period where this was novel. MC was winning many a fan as much for his personality as his play.

Latterly Taeja doing his thing (see GOAT discussions from that period), Life obviously and the first incarnation of Innovation

These aren’t arguments against Maru’s accomplishments, as I said I feel he was somewhat underrated prior to his GSL explosion, but the perception of him by and large.

I could argue that Taylor Swift is great, or sucks (I actually quite like her work), that’s subject to subjectivity but I can’t really make a claim that she’s not popular as she very obviously is.

Anybody who follows SC2 even vaguely will know who Maru is, and Serral, you can’t not. I mean you can’t be a tennis fan but not having heard of Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal. As to how they’re perceived in the pantheon, I don’t actually know. I would suspect it maybe swings Serral, between foreigner bias, foreigner audience, him winning those big WC tournaments, and some of Maru’s best work being in domains a lot of the audience probably didn’t consume, or value all that much.

I think proper SC2 connoisseurs who devour everything, who are on TL LR threads for any and all meaningful tournaments can better contextualise their achievements, and may diverge based on subjective weightings, but a lot of SC2 fans, I’d wager the majority do not do this.

For the record they’re both pretty neck and neck for me, I think Maru can pull stuff off nobody else can when he’s absolutely on it and Serral brings an unparalleled level of consistently high performance to the table. Maru will do something cool that will make me want to log in and completely fail to replicate it, and Serral is that relentless winner that inspires that way, like a peak Tiger Woods or a Novak Djokovic.