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On May 21 2024 01:53 Antithesis wrote:
Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"?
This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
It's a fact that Serral is far less dominant vZ compared to vT/vP.
The point that Serral uses infestors more effectively than other Zergs does not contradict the point that infestors are OP. Btw watch this www.youtube.com
I won't waste my breath on this any more than the above. You will believe what you want to believe.
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On May 21 2024 01:53 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 13:51 goldensail wrote:On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote:
No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny.
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral. I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP! Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"? This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him and the obvious truth is that the majority of big events he won during that 5 year period would have still been won by another Zerg even if he didn't win it. It's only 2023 forward where he's started winning stuff that would have been won by T/P if he wasn't around.
As for the cabal thing i think certain community members who have been very important in terms of balance decisions honestly believed that Serral (and Reynor at certain points) were just so far and away the best in the world that Zerg results were justified. It wasn't a conspiracy but their actual belief. This naturally led to Zerg not getting deserved nerfs as fast as they should have and pretty much always getting some type of compensatory buff anytime they did get an actual nerf.
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On May 21 2024 03:07 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2024 01:53 Antithesis wrote:On May 20 2024 13:51 goldensail wrote:On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote:
No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny.
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral. I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP! Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"? This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral? Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him and the obvious truth is that the majority of big events he won during that 5 year period would have still been won by another Zerg even if he didn't win it. It's only 2023 forward where he's started winning stuff that would have been won by T/P if he wasn't around.
Imo it's even more recent because in 2023 reynor won g8 and solar gsl
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On May 21 2024 03:07 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2024 01:53 Antithesis wrote:On May 20 2024 13:51 goldensail wrote:On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote:
No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral. I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP! Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"? This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral? Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him
The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results).
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France12790 Posts
On May 21 2024 04:20 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2024 03:07 JJH777 wrote:On May 21 2024 01:53 Antithesis wrote:On May 20 2024 13:51 goldensail wrote:On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote:
No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral. I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP! Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"? This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral? Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results).
The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men
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On May 21 2024 04:27 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2024 04:20 Antithesis wrote:On May 21 2024 03:07 JJH777 wrote:On May 21 2024 01:53 Antithesis wrote:On May 20 2024 13:51 goldensail wrote:On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote:
No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral. I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP! Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"? This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral? Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results). The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men
Well, since it takes Serral's absence for Maru to dominate, this is a self-burn more than anything.
Anyway, it doesn't add anything to the argument.
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France12790 Posts
On May 21 2024 04:45 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2024 04:27 Poopi wrote:On May 21 2024 04:20 Antithesis wrote:On May 21 2024 03:07 JJH777 wrote:On May 21 2024 01:53 Antithesis wrote:On May 20 2024 13:51 goldensail wrote:On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote:
No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral. I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP! Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"? This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral? Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results). The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men Well, since it takes Serral's absence for Maru to dominate, this is a self-burn more than anything. Anyway, it doesn't add anything to the argument.
I didn’t recall Serral coming to the GSL?
And there is nothing to add basically, this GOAT debate won’t ever have a definitive answer.
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United States1847 Posts
On May 20 2024 20:58 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed. This has been mentioned plenty of times. Since the Korean team league structure collapsed, the standard of competition has dropped off a cliff. Players did not dominate season after season back when the Korean team leagues existed. Several players rose up to win GSL only to drop off just as quickly. Maru's G5L was such a landmark achievement precisely because it was so difficult for someone to achieve that many GSL wins prior to Maru managing to do so, but even that happened after the Korean team league structure collapsed. Even qualifying for GSL consistently was difficult back then. For example, look at the winners of the  NesTea Award, given to players who manage to qualify for Code S ten times in a row. Only four players managed to do this before the Korean team league structure fell apart in 2016. Fifteen players have done so since. It's not difficult to join the dots. Serral's achievements are impressive, but they've all come during a period where there's a lower standard of competition. People can choose to ignore this if they want - "you can only beat what's put in front of you" - but I personally think it's an important factor to consider.
There are so many things wrong here, but it would take me 30 minutes to properly respond, But, since you have no actual data to support the claims you've made, I'll save myself 29.5 minutes and leave it at that.
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Northern Ireland25047 Posts
On May 20 2024 20:58 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed. This has been mentioned plenty of times. Since the Korean team league structure collapsed, the standard of competition has dropped off a cliff. Players did not dominate season after season back when the Korean team leagues existed. Several players rose up to win GSL only to drop off just as quickly. Maru's G5L was such a landmark achievement precisely because it was so difficult for someone to achieve that many GSL wins prior to Maru managing to do so, but even that happened after the Korean team league structure collapsed. Even qualifying for GSL consistently was difficult back then. For example, look at the winners of the NesTea Award, given to players who manage to qualify for Code S ten times in a row. Only four players managed to do this before the Korean team league structure fell apart in 2016. Fifteen players have done so since. It's not difficult to join the dots. Serral's achievements are impressive, but they've all come during a period where there's a lower standard of competition. People can choose to ignore this if they want - "you can only beat what's put in front of you" - but I personally think it's an important factor to consider.
One flipside of this argument is that Korean players are operating under similar conditions to foreign players now, and without having that team house setup advantage that gap has closed considerably.
I don’t think it’s a complete refutation, there are other associated issues that are also impactful. It’s not just the collapse of the previous structure, it’s an underfunding of the current one which contributes to the overall decline.
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Northern Ireland25047 Posts
On May 21 2024 04:27 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2024 04:20 Antithesis wrote:On May 21 2024 03:07 JJH777 wrote:On May 21 2024 01:53 Antithesis wrote:On May 20 2024 13:51 goldensail wrote:On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote:
No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral. I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP! Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"? This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral? Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results). The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men
Maru has Dark’s number, in recent years, he lost a big match but he has a winning record against Reynor too. It’s Serral who’s got the big
H2H advantage versus Maru (and a winning one against basically today’s entire field)
Even if Zerg has been doing pretty well, which it has, Serral can still be an outlier.
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France12790 Posts
On May 21 2024 06:14 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2024 04:27 Poopi wrote:On May 21 2024 04:20 Antithesis wrote:On May 21 2024 03:07 JJH777 wrote:On May 21 2024 01:53 Antithesis wrote:On May 20 2024 13:51 goldensail wrote:On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote:
No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral. I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP! Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"? This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral? Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results). The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men Maru has Dark’s number, in recent years, he lost a big match but he has a winning record against Reynor too. It’s Serral who’s got the big H2H advantage versus Maru (and a winning one against basically today’s entire field) Even if Zerg has been doing pretty well, which it has, Serral can still be an outlier.
Dark is too old and far past his prime, Reynor has been carried in 2019 onwards so the expectations are a bit higher than his real potential, and Rogue has just come back.
So I don’t think Serral is that much of an outlier, more like the top KR zergs are past their prime, and Reynor is inconsistent.
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On May 21 2024 06:14 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2024 04:27 Poopi wrote:On May 21 2024 04:20 Antithesis wrote:On May 21 2024 03:07 JJH777 wrote:On May 21 2024 01:53 Antithesis wrote:On May 20 2024 13:51 goldensail wrote:On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote:
No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral. I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP! Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"? This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral? Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results). The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men Maru has Dark’s number, in recent years, he lost a big match but he has a winning record against Reynor too. It’s Serral who’s got the big H2H advantage versus Maru (and a winning one against basically today’s entire field) Even if Zerg has been doing pretty well, which it has, Serral can still be an outlier.
Maru and Dark are basically perfect 50-50. Even their last 10 series are 5-5. Without doing an indepth tally of all their series by location I'd be pretty confident that Maru does better against him in matches that take place in Korea though which Serral has never had to deal with.
With a few exceptions the discrepancy between Maru vs Reynor and Maru vs Serral is mainly just timing, locations and circumstances of a lot of the matches imo. Serral is definitely more consistent than Reynor but I don't think he's on some completely different level. Especially not comparable to how big the gap between Maru and the 2nd best Terran had typically been since 2018.
Edit to add justification to the second paragraph. If you compare Reynor and Serral's TvZ win rates against all the top Terrans what you consistently find is that Serral is around 10% ahead +- 5% depending on the Terran. This is true for their winrates vs Clem, heromarine, Gumiho, Byun, Inno, Bunny, and Cure. This is a more accurate representation of the skill/consistency gap between them and is based on a much higher sample size vs a large variety of Terran playstyles. The only top Terran that they have super different win rates against is Maru where instead of being a 8-15% gap it's almost a 40% gap which is just absurd. There's no way for style differences to justify that. I think it's pretty clear there's just a sample size issue going on and the win rates would close over time with more games played.
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I would be interested in seeing statistics on this since it's impossible to know until you see the data, but I do not think people fully appreciate how much harder it is to win a prep-based tournament like GSL, all things equal. When opponents have time to prep for each other, you'd expect higher variance in the performance of championship-tier players and higher rates of upsets. I remember when Rogue would win a world championship and then immediately bomb out in the Ro32 group stages of GSL and people meme'd on the guy for being lazy or whatever. But what we forget is that it was actually quite common for championship-tier players to bomb out in the group stages, or even fail to qualify, for GSL. That's because really smart players who may be less talented or skilled can gain a significant edge by prepping tailored strategies rather than having to rely on their standard play (which will naturally favor the more skilled player).
By contrast, the weekender tourneys--especially the ones with like with like 6 or 8 person round robin groups or double elimination brackets--smooth the variance quite a bit by giving the edge to the best players who perform reliably well in all match-ups, and are best positioned to recover from an upset or two.
What am I saying and what am I not saying? I am NOT saying that GSL tends to produce champions that are "better" than these weekender tourneys. If anything, Serral, who most would say is the "best" player, is going to be the most likely to win these weekenders because his general ZvP, ZvT, and ZvZ is the best and most stable in the business. And yet the reality is that anyone can have a good weekend and win a weekender...
What I AM saying is that GSL is harder to win, relatively speaking, especially for the best players whose standard play is likely to be countered with tailored, prepped builds. This is why--contrary to the alternative history that Serral fans like to tout--it is not at all obvious that Serral would have won a bunch of GSLs when facing the prep of players like Dark, Classic, Gumiho, Zest, Rogue, Trap, Shin, etc. I remember there was one series where Lambo described how he prepped for and ultimately beat Serral with some very specific mind games and tailored strategies. Perhaps that was a lucky one-off, but GSL is full of super smart players like Lambo who are studying your play for weeks to try to snipe you out of the group stages.
In the GOAT debate, there's a lot of emphasis put on Maru "choking" in these weekender tourneys, but much more interesting is the question of how these weekender tourneys are set up to make it possible for a guy like Oliveira to lose 3 matches on one day, then wake up the next day, play out of his mind, and win a world championship. Soo did the same thing a few years back. And yet this is quite literally not possible to do in GSL. In GSL, you've got to be on your best form for weeks beating players who are watching all your replays and studying your game for any possible weakness.
When you have this context, what Maru has done and continues to do in the GSL is actually kinda insane. I don't agree that this season or any season of GSL is just Maru's for the taking. It's easier to win GSL now than before for sure, but it's still arguably the hardest tournament format to win, and Maru is singular in how easy he makes it look sometimes.
p.s. I actuality think there was a fairly monumental change recently that greatly impacts both the perception and reality of GSL as the most competitive 1v1 tournament in e-sports. And that is....having the semi-finals and finals on the same day. More than any other change, I feel this one undermines GSL as the ultimate "prep"-based tournament, even though it still remains more of a prep-based tourney that any of the others. I have found that it also makes the finals so much less hype than the prior GSLs when you had like a week or sometimes 10 days to build excitement and intrigue towards the finals.
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On May 21 2024 06:58 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2024 06:14 WombaT wrote:On May 21 2024 04:27 Poopi wrote:On May 21 2024 04:20 Antithesis wrote:On May 21 2024 03:07 JJH777 wrote:On May 21 2024 01:53 Antithesis wrote:On May 20 2024 13:51 goldensail wrote:On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote:
No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral. I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP! Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"? This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral? Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results). The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men Maru has Dark’s number, in recent years, he lost a big match but he has a winning record against Reynor too. It’s Serral who’s got the big H2H advantage versus Maru (and a winning one against basically today’s entire field) Even if Zerg has been doing pretty well, which it has, Serral can still be an outlier. Edit to add justification to the second paragraph. If you compare Reynor and Serral's TvZ win rates against all the top Terrans what you consistently find is that Serral is around 10% ahead +- 5% depending on the Terran. This is true for their winrates vs Clem, heromarine, Gumiho, Byun, Inno, Bunny, and Cure. This is a more accurate representation of the skill/consistency gap between them and is based on a much higher sample size vs a large variety of Terran playstyles. The only top Terran that they have super different win rates against is Maru where instead of being a 8-15% gap it's almost a 40% gap which is just absurd. There's no way for style differences to justify that. I think it's pretty clear there's just a sample size issue going on and the win rates would close over time with more games played.
Interesting. I'm wondering about your evaluation.
According to your data, Serral is around 8-15% ahead of Reynor in terms of winrate against each and everyone of the very top terrans. Moreover, against arguably the best terran of all times, he is almost 40% ahead, which indeed is ridiculous. And what is more, one might add that Serral is not just ahead in terms of winrate, he has the best winrate of all Zerg players against most if not all of the top terrans.
And from this data, you conclude that Serral is not a level above Reynor?
For this conclusion to make sense, the listed discrepancies in winrate would need to be the standard discrepancies between players at the same tier. But from all the statistics I know, the discrepancy between Serral's winrates and those of all the other top tier Zerg players is far greater than that between the winrates of those other players. That is, Reynor, Dark, Solar, and so on, are much closer to one another in terms of winrate than they are to Serral.
Does your data say otherwise?
On May 21 2024 06:32 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2024 06:14 WombaT wrote:On May 21 2024 04:27 Poopi wrote:On May 21 2024 04:20 Antithesis wrote:On May 21 2024 03:07 JJH777 wrote:On May 21 2024 01:53 Antithesis wrote:On May 20 2024 13:51 goldensail wrote:On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote:
No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral. I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP! Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"? This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral? Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results). The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men Maru has Dark’s number, in recent years, he lost a big match but he has a winning record against Reynor too. It’s Serral who’s got the big H2H advantage versus Maru (and a winning one against basically today’s entire field) Even if Zerg has been doing pretty well, which it has, Serral can still be an outlier. Dark is too old and far past his prime, Reynor has been carried in 2019 onwards so the expectations are a bit higher than his real potential, and Rogue has just come back. So I don’t think Serral is that much of an outlier, more like the top KR zergs are past their prime, and Reynor is inconsistent.
"Serral is no outlier! He is just better than everyone else for a variety of different reasons!"
Honestly, I find some of the claims on this page rather baffling. I do of course agree that everyone will and should draw different conclusions about the GoaT depending on what is taken into account and how the criteria are weighted. This is how it should be.
But if you choose to focus on pure, raw winrates, there is no denying that Serral is an outlier and the #1. This is really the wrong fight to pick.
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The irony is, despite how much people claim Serral has dominated Maru in head-to-head which is true, its the other top Zergs that has stopped Maru from getting better result in premiere tournament more so than Serral. Rogue beat him twice in IEM, once in GSL Final, Dark beat him in 2019 Blizzon and 2022 Valencia, Reynor beat him in IEM 2021 and another Grand Final that I dont remember when.
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On May 21 2024 11:07 tigera6 wrote:
The irony is, despite how much people claim Serral has dominated Maru in head-to-head which is true, its the other top Zergs that has stopper Maru from getting better result in premiere tournament more so than Serral. Rogue beat him twice in IEM, once in GSL Final, Dark beat him in 2019 Blizzon and 2022 Valencia, Reynor beat him in IEM 2021 and another Grand Final that I dont remember when.
Two out of Serral's three World Championship/Kato titles include direct wins over Maru. He not only 4:0'ed him in the Kato 24 finals, he also 3:1'ed him in the semifinals of Kato 22, which for some reason is often forgotten.
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On May 21 2024 10:49 rwala wrote:
p.s. I actuality think there was a fairly monumental change recently that greatly impacts both the perception and reality of GSL as the most competitive 1v1 tournament in e-sports. And that is....having the semi-finals and finals on the same day. More than any other change, I feel this one undermines GSL as the ultimate "prep"-based tournament, even though it still remains more of a prep-based tourney that any of the others. I have found that it also makes the finals so much less hype than the prior GSLs when you had like a week or sometimes 10 days to build excitement and intrigue towards the finals.
Agreed.
I also think having the semi-finals and final on the same day is an advantage for the Zerg, since Terran has to rely more on precise micro/constant multi-tasking and their wrists/overall stamina burn out quicker. It's much easier to A-move lings to backstab than to load up two medivacs, drop units, and then still have to avoid all sorts of static and non-static defenses (which can come quickly to rescue on creep). Often it's these backstabs rather than frontal engagements that win the game. PiG had said a BO7 (compared to BO5) favors Zerg, I believe for the same reason, and he's not exactly a Terran/Maru fan.
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On May 21 2024 11:14 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2024 11:07 tigera6 wrote:
The irony is, despite how much people claim Serral has dominated Maru in head-to-head which is true, its the other top Zergs that has stopper Maru from getting better result in premiere tournament more so than Serral. Rogue beat him twice in IEM, once in GSL Final, Dark beat him in 2019 Blizzon and 2022 Valencia, Reynor beat him in IEM 2021 and another Grand Final that I dont remember when. Two out of Serral's three World Championship/Kato titles include direct wins over Maru. He not only 4:0'ed him in the Kato 24 finals, he also 3:1'ed him in the semifinals of Kato 22, which for some reason is often forgotten.
That is 2 comparing to the 6-7 losses to the other Zergs, Maru would be in a different place had he was able to win half of those matches. Serral was not the main reason Maru didnt have “international success”, Zerg was.
Edit: If you think about it, Zerg being dominant was partly Maru fault because he couldnt take care of them, damn.
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Aside from the already mentioned series Rogue also eliminated Maru from a Blizzcon back in hots and a super tournament finals in 2021 and Dark eliminated him from a Katowice in hots as well. Plus Jaedong eliminated him from a Blizzcon. If Zerg was just a tiny smidge weaker at a couple points throughout the life of the game Maru would be the indisputable goat.
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France12790 Posts
On May 21 2024 11:14 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2024 11:07 tigera6 wrote:
The irony is, despite how much people claim Serral has dominated Maru in head-to-head which is true, its the other top Zergs that has stopper Maru from getting better result in premiere tournament more so than Serral. Rogue beat him twice in IEM, once in GSL Final, Dark beat him in 2019 Blizzon and 2022 Valencia, Reynor beat him in IEM 2021 and another Grand Final that I dont remember when. Two out of Serral's three World Championship/Kato titles include direct wins over Maru. He not only 4:0'ed him in the Kato 24 finals, he also 3:1'ed him in the semifinals of Kato 22, which for some reason is often forgotten.
Don’t worry it’s not forgotten, that gold map was something else in terms of balance and Rogue, Reynor or Serral would have won the tournament.
HeroMarine overperformed though, props to him
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EPT
