EPTI've had a lot going on over the last few weeks and missed some uploads, but that changes today. When chatting with Diego at IEM Katowice 2024, we covered a lot of ground; from the differences in management style between TL and Root, to gauging success and improvement as a pro. Kelazhur is not only an incredibly skilled player, but also a friendly and insightful person. I hope you all find this piece as fun and interesting as I did!
Kelazhur Talks: Saudis in SC2, Balance, & more...
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StarcraftHistorian
United States157 Posts
I've had a lot going on over the last few weeks and missed some uploads, but that changes today. When chatting with Diego at IEM Katowice 2024, we covered a lot of ground; from the differences in management style between TL and Root, to gauging success and improvement as a pro. Kelazhur is not only an incredibly skilled player, but also a friendly and insightful person. I hope you all find this piece as fun and interesting as I did! | ||
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PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
StarCraft Historian: So, you know, obviously representing a Saudi org now and uh seeing the whole scene sort of developing around uh these uh Saudi Investments and things of that nature um there's uh you know a bit of criticism from some people as well about this sort of development within the scene. What would you say to people that are somewhat critical to the large role that Saudi orgs are playing uh in the esports scene at the moment? Kelazhur: I can understand I guess the concern of some people but that's that just became the natural progression of things especially after the acquisition ESL by Savvy Gaming Group um like if you're playing an ESL tournament you're already partaking in the Saudi investment and it's just hypocritical to, you know, pick and choose which one uh you're going to disapprove of but I understand that these things have a lot of nuance to them and it's always more complicated than what you really see um in the end Starcraft is you know there there's like there's not that many tournaments going on and as a player the only way I can survive is by playing all of them right yeah um so what can you do? [laughs] StarCraft Historian: yeah yeah no yeah I I think that is the mindset and also what you said it really hits the nail on the head in the sense that like yeah they own ESL right so like you either are going to partake in in these like Saudi run events or you're not going to play StarCraft um and or and many other games really at this point um Kelazhur: so yeah no that in the end I mean we're all just united by our love for the game. What I got from this interview is that Kelazhur doesn't care where the money comes from as long he is paid to play StarCraft II. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
On May 08 2024 10:45 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: The questions about Kelazhur representing a Saudi Arabian organization now with R8 Esports and about the dependency of competitive StarCraft II on investments by the Saudi Ministry of Sport come at 22:49. What I got from this interview is that Kelazhur doesn't care where the money comes from as long he is paid to play StarCraft II. More $$ for him if women and LGBTQ people are excluded | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
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Comedy
469 Posts
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ZeroByte13
785 Posts
And yes, the only alternative is for everyone to quite the game and more or less end pro-SC2-scene completely. But then we should also stop buying any China-made products to not support Chinese government, I guess. Oh, and now that we know what has been happening in Blizzard all this time - probably we should stop playing their games altogether. | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
What I like about these interviews is that StarCraft Historian keeps asking about the issue. Even his softball approach reveals something about what people think. | ||
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Ciaus237
South Africa287 Posts
Overall agree with Croc's assessment. | ||
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AlexGano
28 Posts
Do you guys think your resistance to these middle east countries can change women status within? By stopping them getting into modern world? You are just making things worse if you believe that. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
Diego most probably meant SC2 players SC2 players are directly in the line of fire when many of these tournaments are held with mandatory attendance in Saudi Arabia. Such a statement is selling out their physical safety and/or ability to compete in the game at all in order to have better odds at personal money and fame. Even if the game were at the height of its popularity, it's not worth that. Any game that needs to threaten a subset of competitors and fans with incarceration or physical harm / death in order to live should die. I don't see any valid argument against this. | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
On May 08 2024 18:01 AlexGano wrote: Do you guys think your resistance to these middle east countries can change women status within? By stopping them getting into modern world? You are just making things worse if you believe that. The rulers of Saudi Arabia are in the modern world, but their view of what the modern world should be like is abhorrent. Change through Trade is a failed policy. We learned that the hard way with Russia. Cozying up to repressive systems only emboldens them. | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2255 Posts
The weighting therefore becomes a matter of whether you value your enjoyment of SC2 as a greater good than jeopardizing the Saudis. For someone from outside the scene, the answer may seem obvious, but we are all fighting our own personal battles, and for many, myself included, Starcraft offers comfort and a sweet melancholic feeling essentially to our mental health and dealing with difficult times. Taking that away is a sacrifice many are not willing to take, and in my eyes, understandably so. Pro-Gamers making a living off SC2 may have other choices, but working a minimum-wage job, as an untrained person, for example, seems unfeasible compared to doing what you love for a living and being paid well in addition. My point is that the moral dilemma is more deep and multifaceted than when just taken at face value, and while i hate the backwards, LGBTQ adverse, chauvinist, just overall f*cked up Saudis, i am unwilling to sacrifice the comfort SC2 brings me, and this is just the reality many of us find themselves in. I am heavily conflicted. Let's say I spoke to someone like Scarlett about this matter, someone who would be executed or tortured in Saudi Arabia just for being "different" to their expectations, I would feel like the biggest POS ever, and could certainly not justify myself. On the other hand, the prospect of me sitting down after a long day of work, watching the best SC2 action in their 1.000.000$ tournament fills me with excitement, solace and comfort. Does that make me a bad person? That's for each and everyone themselves to decide. For me personally, dirty, bloody Saudi money keeping SC2 alive is better than not having it at all. I also completely understand people shunning me for my views, and i cannot fault them.  | ||
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Ciaus237
South Africa287 Posts
On May 08 2024 21:36 SharkStarcraft wrote: + Show Spoiler + It's a complex, convoluted mess. At face value, the Saudi regime's values are horrible and should not be supported or provided with a platform whatsoever. Given the state of Starcraft II, however, this may mean that the competitive scene completely ceases to exist, with GSL being in its last year of running time and ESL already taken over by the Saudis. The weighting therefore becomes a matter of whether you value your enjoyment of SC2 as a greater good than jeopardizing the Saudis. For someone from outside the scene, the answer may seem obvious, but we are all fighting our own personal battles, and for many, myself included, Starcraft offers comfort and a sweet melancholic feeling essentially to our mental health and dealing with difficult times. Taking that away is a sacrifice many are not willing to take, and in my eyes, understandably so. Pro-Gamers making a living off SC2 may have other choices, but working a minimum-wage job, as an untrained person, for example, seems unfeasible compared to doing what you love for a living and being paid well in addition. My point is that the moral dilemma is more deep and multifaceted than when just taken at face value, and while i hate the backwards, LGBTQ adverse, chauvinist, just overall f*cked up Saudis, i am unwilling to sacrifice the comfort SC2 brings me, and this is just the reality many of us find themselves in. I am heavily conflicted. Let's say I spoke to someone like Scarlett about this matter, someone who would be executed or tortured in Saudi Arabia just for being "different" to their expectations, I would feel like the biggest POS ever, and could certainly not justify myself. On the other hand, the prospect of me sitting down after a long day of work, watching the best SC2 action in their 1.000.000$ tournament fills me with excitement, solace and comfort. Does that make me a bad person? That's for each and everyone themselves to decide. For me personally, dirty, bloody Saudi money keeping SC2 alive is better than not having it at all. I also completely understand people shunning me for my views, and i cannot fault them. This is a very lucid, honest assessment, and a good explanation of both some of the difficulties here and your stance. Much appreciated. Personally I feel quite similarly, with the caveat that it certainly reduces how much of it I watch, and want to watch. What I am not fond of is the handwaving and dismissing around this that we see sometimes (such as in Kela's interview). He's making the choice that his career and participation in this matters more. Can't blame him for that at all, but we shouldn't pretend it's not a choice (and one with a clear drawback at that). | ||
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rwala
331 Posts
On May 08 2024 21:36 SharkStarcraft wrote: It's a complex, convoluted mess. At face value, the Saudi regime's values are horrible and should not be supported or provided with a platform whatsoever. Given the state of Starcraft II, however, this may mean that the competitive scene completely ceases to exist, with GSL being in its last year of running time and ESL already taken over by the Saudis. The weighting therefore becomes a matter of whether you value your enjoyment of SC2 as a greater good than jeopardizing the Saudis. For someone from outside the scene, the answer may seem obvious, but we are all fighting our own personal battles, and for many, myself included, Starcraft offers comfort and a sweet melancholic feeling essentially to our mental health and dealing with difficult times. Taking that away is a sacrifice many are not willing to take, and in my eyes, understandably so. Pro-Gamers making a living off SC2 may have other choices, but working a minimum-wage job, as an untrained person, for example, seems unfeasible compared to doing what you love for a living and being paid well in addition. My point is that the moral dilemma is more deep and multifaceted than when just taken at face value, and while i hate the backwards, LGBTQ adverse, chauvinist, just overall f*cked up Saudis, i am unwilling to sacrifice the comfort SC2 brings me, and this is just the reality many of us find themselves in. I am heavily conflicted. Let's say I spoke to someone like Scarlett about this matter, someone who would be executed or tortured in Saudi Arabia just for being "different" to their expectations, I would feel like the biggest POS ever, and could certainly not justify myself. On the other hand, the prospect of me sitting down after a long day of work, watching the best SC2 action in their 1.000.000$ tournament fills me with excitement, solace and comfort. Does that make me a bad person? That's for each and everyone themselves to decide. For me personally, dirty, bloody Saudi money keeping SC2 alive is better than not having it at all. I also completely understand people shunning me for my views, and i cannot fault them. Appreciate the attempt at honest engagement, but the choice isn't that stark. This isn't between pro-gamers continuing their career or instead working a minimum-wage job. Or you watching this tourney and SC2's existence. Watch your tourney, and use whatever platform you have to call out the Saudi gov't for its horrible human rights record. Not so tragic, right? | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
130 Posts
If you prefer an 'alive scene' (which it hasn't been in a decade) because you want to watch some stupid game over your morals, you have also failed as an individual. Meanwhile, 99 percent of the BW scene is funded by fans and donations. Instead of supporting that, you support SC2. Funny. | ||
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AlexGano
28 Posts
On May 08 2024 21:14 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: The rulers of Saudi Arabia are in the modern world, but their view of what the modern world should be like is abhorrent. Change through Trade is a failed policy. We learned that the hard way with Russia. Cozying up to repressive systems only emboldens them. You mentioned Russia, we usually think it's a politic problem. I don't think Russia has any mistakes on defending its own country safety just like how US reacted in Cuba missile crisis. But when we talk about Arabia, it's a conflict between traditional culture and modern views. Read more history and it will tell you what matters more is young generations instead of rulers. When more and more common young people in arabia countries are accessible to modern concept, then changes will happen through a slow but safe way. But if anyone from outside is just blaming and saying "you are not welcomed", then next generation will still act like what their parents taught, and women keeps their suffering years by years with nothing changed. | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
On May 09 2024 11:27 AlexGano wrote: You mentioned Russia, we usually think it's a politic problem. I don't think Russia has any mistakes on defending its own country safety just like how US reacted in Cuba missile crisis. Russia is not defending its own country in Ukraine. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is a war of aggression and conquest. I don't think it can be compared to the Cuban Missile Crisis in any shape or form. On May 09 2024 11:27 AlexGano wrote: When more and more common young people in arabia countries are accessible to modern concept, then changes will happen through a slow but safe way. But if anyone from outside is just blaming and saying "you are not welcomed", then next generation will still act like what their parents taught, and women keeps their suffering years by years with nothing changed. I am not sure what you mean with "arabia countries". We are discussing specifically Saudi Arabia here because the Saudi Ministry of Sport is using StarCraft II for sportswashing. The idea that exposure of young people to different ideas will automatically and safely lead to change seems overly simplistic to me, to say the least. It does not address how power structures in complex societies work at all. Here is a different view: If young people in Saudi Arabia see that their repressive system and the atrocities committed under it are being criticized by the international community and actually get some pushback, does that make change more or less likely? I am curious what you think. | ||
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AlexGano
28 Posts
On May 09 2024 13:21 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: I am not sure what you mean with "arabia countries". We are discussing specifically Saudi Arabia here because the Saudi Ministry of Sport is using StarCraft II for sportswashing. The idea that exposure of young people to different ideas will automatically and safely lead to change seems overly simplistic to me, to say the least. It does not address how power structures in complex societies work at all. Here is a different view: If young people in Saudi Arabia see that their repressive system and the atrocities committed under it are being criticized by the international community and actually get some pushback, does that make change more or less likely? I am curious what you think. If they are banned from more international events, why should they be interested in how people outside view them? Come on, most of them don't even speak English. If you are not friendly then they lost any reason to read your opinion. Criticism sounds more like an over simplistic way to treat Saudi's involvement. I don't want to talk a lot about Russia-Ukraine problem but NATO is never a friendly military organization to Russia. Let Ukraine get in NATO is just putting Russia under knife of US. | ||
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StarcraftHistorian
United States157 Posts
On May 08 2024 03:45 PtitDrogo wrote: I don't know how diegod keeps getting prettier what a legend He is a handsome fella indeed =D | ||
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