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On May 08 2024 21:36 SharkStarcraft wrote:
It's a complex, convoluted mess. At face value, the Saudi regime's values are horrible and should not be supported or provided with a platform whatsoever. Given the state of Starcraft II, however, this may mean that the competitive scene completely ceases to exist, with GSL being in its last year of running time and ESL already taken over by the Saudis.
The weighting therefore becomes a matter of whether you value your enjoyment of SC2 as a greater good than jeopardizing the Saudis. For someone from outside the scene, the answer may seem obvious, but we are all fighting our own personal battles, and for many, myself included, Starcraft offers comfort and a sweet melancholic feeling essentially to our mental health and dealing with difficult times. Taking that away is a sacrifice many are not willing to take, and in my eyes, understandably so. Pro-Gamers making a living off SC2 may have other choices, but working a minimum-wage job, as an untrained person, for example, seems unfeasible compared to doing what you love for a living and being paid well in addition.
My point is that the moral dilemma is more deep and multifaceted than when just taken at face value, and while i hate the backwards, LGBTQ adverse, chauvinist, just overall f*cked up Saudis, i am unwilling to sacrifice the comfort SC2 brings me, and this is just the reality many of us find themselves in.
I am heavily conflicted. Let's say I spoke to someone like Scarlett about this matter, someone who would be executed or tortured in Saudi Arabia just for being "different" to their expectations, I would feel like the biggest POS ever, and could certainly not justify myself. On the other hand, the prospect of me sitting down after a long day of work, watching the best SC2 action in their 1.000.000$ tournament fills me with excitement, solace and comfort. Does that make me a bad person? That's for each and everyone themselves to decide. For me personally, dirty, bloody Saudi money keeping SC2 alive is better than not having it at all. I also completely understand people shunning me for my views, and i cannot fault them.
I definitely hear this
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Kelazhur said it's complicated, and it is. If it wasn't complicated, then we wouldn't be having these discussions back and forth in 50% of TL threads, many of which where it isn't even a main topic.
Each person has their own views, and there are many many things to consider. Nothing wrong or inaccurate about what he said really. He was asked a question on the spot, his answer was pretty good. He wasn't given time to type out a nuanced essay.
Everyone's lives are different, and have differing degrees of privilege. It's easier for some people to have the allowance to make sacrifice for their morals, and it's harder for others. A personal choice you make for yourself, you cannot harshly judge others for not making the same decision, as I'm sure no one here is perfect and each cares about their own moralistic issues relevant in their life, and I'm sure some people who for example would be OK with watching/playing in ESL tournaments wouldn't be OK with doing certain other things.
When it comes to judging others, it also cannot simply be about the "bad" things you do, but the "good" things. You can see how messy it already gets, as not everyone even agrees with this and thinks moreso that it should just be about not doing any bad things. Nothing wrong with expressing opinions though of course if done so in a constructive manner. But there are many bad things and issues in the world, yes human rights are one of the biggest but there are many different topics and issues that different people care about.
I don't know if what I'm saying counts as whataboutism (haven't heard that term before reading the topic on TL), but things are complicated and that's just true.
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It is not complicated.
As a viewer: If you watch StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value your entertainment above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators.
As a player/team owner/caster/host/organiser: If you participate in StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value making a living above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators.
I argue that the choice for the first group should be an easy one: quit watching and watch something else. There is an overabundance of entertainment products on the market.
For the second group, I understand it is not an easy choice since you can't just switch to a different game or career or business.
Kelazhur's answer makes it seem like he doesn't care where the money comes from, as long as he his paid to play StarCraft II. His nonchalant dismissal of people who have concerns about sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators as "hypocritical" is irritating.
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On May 11 2024 00:02 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
It is not complicated.
As a viewer: If you watch StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value your entertainment above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators.
As a player/team owner/caster/host/organiser: If you participate in StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value making a living above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators.
I argue that the choice for the first group should be an easy one: quit watching and watch something else. There is an overabundance of entertainment products on the market.
For the second group, I understand it is not an easy choice since you can't just switch to a different game or career or business.
Kelazhur's answer makes it seem like he doesn't care where the money comes from, as long as he his paid to play StarCraft II. His nonchalant dismissal of people who have concerns about sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators as "hypocritical" is irritating.
It is complicated because you can make the same literal argument for the west. We're seeing first hand literal genocide supported by the west. Let me ask you, are you going to stop watching any west-created media? The problem is no one has actual clean hands, which turns the debate into "where do you draw the line" or "are you putting your head in the sand to ignore when your country engages in similar human rights violations that you care about"?
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United States1959 Posts
On May 11 2024 00:02 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
It is not complicated.
As a viewer: If you watch StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value your entertainment above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators.
As a player/team owner/caster/host/organiser: If you participate in StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value making a living above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators.
I argue that the choice for the first group should be an easy one: quit watching and watch something else. There is an overabundance of entertainment products on the market.
For the second group, I understand it is not an easy choice since you can't just switch to a different game or career or business.
Kelazhur's answer makes it seem like he doesn't care where the money comes from, as long as he his paid to play StarCraft II. His nonchalant dismissal of people who have concerns about sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators as "hypocritical" is irritating.
I'm impressed you don't wear anything from a sweatshop, don't order on amazon, don't eat chic fil a and never drive a car. (where does the oil come from?)
We all make concessions in our daily life. I'm fine with you feeling the way you do, but I hope you don't cast judgement on those who choose this particular thing as one of those concessions.
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On May 08 2024 16:27 ZeroByte13 wrote:
And yes, the only alternative is for everyone to quite the game and more or less end pro-SC2-scene completely.
But then we should also stop buying any China-made products to not support Chinese government, I guess.
Oh, and now that we know what has been happening in Blizzard all this time - probably we should stop playing their games altogether.
I think there's a difference between a Chinese company or people making products, and a Saudi state owned body funding things for obvious reasons
Not every person supports everything their government does or represents them.
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Let's be real. The only reason Saudis can do whatever they want is YOU NEED THEM. The global economy is dependent on Saudi oil so technically as long as you enjoy your modern life, you are helping Saudis persecute their LGBTQ community.
And now people are talking about how Kelazhur doesn't care where the money comes from. I wonder whether they ever think about this question when they're riding their car, taking the bus, or simply enjoying their electricity where their homes are powered by Saudis natural gas?
Complaining about whether ESL is owned by Saudis or SC2 is funded by Saudis is such a meaningless discussion. The only thing it does is satisfy some hypocritical moral values that do nothing to either Saudis or their LGBTQ community.
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I agree the global economy is currently dependent on Saudi oil as they are in the top 3 of oil producing countries, behind the USA and Russia. In natural gas production, Saudi Arabia is closer to the bottom of the top 10, but they aim to increase their production.
Where we are not dependent is in the entertainment industry. This is a sector where we, as consumers, can try to make ethical choices.
I don't think the discussion about this is meaningless.
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I think there is a pretty big difference in competing in one of the few remaining tournaments thats been bought by the Saudi government and representing them.
I do think though, that it's somewhat unfair to bring this to the table of the players. They are competitive athletes (for lack of a better word), and they are driven to compete and to win, they have to be selfish and single minded in this pursuit.
So, while it's fun to debate the merits of this player representing an abhorrent regime, at the end of the day their focus has to be on playing the game and playing the game alone. It's for the game and the sport to make it so that people like the Saudi's can't come in and make it something it wasn't ever supposed to be.
And if Blizzard don't care then the only option is to simply stop watching, talking about and partaking in events funded and created by the Saudi's and focus on events created and run by the scene, rather than chasing the money.
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Reminder that the Saudis cut BW for this years edition of their handchopper fiesta - all the more reason to watch BW 
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Northern Ireland27339 Posts
On May 11 2024 10:42 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
I agree the global economy is currently dependent on Saudi oil as they are in the top 3 of oil producing countries, behind the USA and Russia. In natural gas production, Saudi Arabia is closer to the bottom of the top 10, but they aim to increase their production.
Where we are not dependent is in the entertainment industry. This is a sector where we, as consumers, can try to make ethical choices.
I don't think the discussion about this is meaningless.
Absolutely, we’re not really in a spot where we can untether ourselves from fossil fuels, and thus there’s some degree of dependence on big producers.
The realm of a professional StarCraft scene is not one that is innately dependent on such concerns.
It’s not like other avenues have been tried, or the Saudi state has some deep love for StarCraft. GSL had some success in extremis via crowdfunding which I think shows at least some appetite
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On May 11 2024 00:02 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
It is not complicated.
As a viewer: If you watch StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value your entertainment above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators.
As a player/team owner/caster/host/organiser: If you participate in StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value making a living above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators.
I argue that the choice for the first group should be an easy one: quit watching and watch something else. There is an overabundance of entertainment products on the market.
For the second group, I understand it is not an easy choice since you can't just switch to a different game or career or business.
Kelazhur's answer makes it seem like he doesn't care where the money comes from, as long as he his paid to play StarCraft II. His nonchalant dismissal of people who have concerns about sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators as "hypocritical" is irritating.
I respect your opinion here, but really dislike it. If every person in the SC2 scene boycotted the tournament funded by the SMoS in unison and all the pro's stood in opposition, it would make zero difference in how the government regime treats it's people, all it does is take money away from the professionals who grind day and night to maintain that skill.
I'm heavily secular and disagree with practically everything Saudi Arabia does, but if there is a Saudi backed tournament that's gonna put money into the pro's pocket and keep this scene alive, I'm gonna sit down and enjoy it. Two things can be true at once ya know.
I'm typing on a mechanical keyboard and PC that's surely made with child slave labor somewhere in the pipeline of it's creation, should I throw away my PC and phone away? Should I stop driving my car because most American oil is purchased from OPEC, thereby fueling their human rights violations by proxy? Where do you draw the line exactly on these types of issues?
I'm not gonna judge you for your opinion, even if I don't like it.
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On May 15 2024 11:58 Beelzebub1 wrote:
all it does is take money away from the professionals who grind day and night to maintain that skill.
it is not an important skill though. its not like farming or carpentry or teaching children. those are important skills.
Also, acquiring elite skill in an RTS is by its nature unhealthy. Sitting for long periods is bad. Staring for long periods into a flat 2D screen under artificial lighting is bad. Myopia is an epidemic in Korea partially due to all the screen time involved in video game playing.
most brood war pros got paid peanuts and were ground into sawdust living under horrible working conditions.
Therefore, if SC2 pros are not doing a "grind day and night" to keep up their skills I do not think it is much of a loss for any one.
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Northern Ireland27339 Posts
On May 15 2024 11:58 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2024 00:02 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
It is not complicated.
As a viewer: If you watch StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value your entertainment above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators.
As a player/team owner/caster/host/organiser: If you participate in StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value making a living above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators.
I argue that the choice for the first group should be an easy one: quit watching and watch something else. There is an overabundance of entertainment products on the market.
For the second group, I understand it is not an easy choice since you can't just switch to a different game or career or business.
Kelazhur's answer makes it seem like he doesn't care where the money comes from, as long as he his paid to play StarCraft II. His nonchalant dismissal of people who have concerns about sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators as "hypocritical" is irritating. I respect your opinion here, but really dislike it. If every person in the SC2 scene boycotted the tournament funded by the SMoS in unison and all the pro's stood in opposition, it would make zero difference in how the government regime treats it's people, all it does is take money away from the professionals who grind day and night to maintain that skill. I'm heavily secular and disagree with practically everything Saudi Arabia does, but if there is a Saudi backed tournament that's gonna put money into the pro's pocket and keep this scene alive, I'm gonna sit down and enjoy it. Two things can be true at once ya know. I'm typing on a mechanical keyboard and PC that's surely made with child slave labor somewhere in the pipeline of it's creation, should I throw away my PC and phone away? Should I stop driving my car because most American oil is purchased from OPEC, thereby fueling their human rights violations by proxy? Where do you draw the line exactly on these types of issues? I'm not gonna judge you for your opinion, even if I don't like it.
It does require some drawing of arbitrary lines sure. But this somewhat ticks the boxes of being a very easy issue to somewhat investigate, and a relatively easy sacrifice to make.
Some things I own have undoubtedly been produced unethically, to what degree gets trickier to ascertain the more moving parts, companies in different countries etc.
It doesn’t really get more cut and dry than directly funded by the Saudi state. Nor, as big of a fan as I am would my life be more inconvenient if I dropped following a few SC2 tournies. Certainly not compared to exhaustively researching manufacturing and supply chains of everything I buy, or not using any vehicles that use petrol.
I think wider concerns are absolutely worth bringing up too, but they almost invariably are brought up in a manner to deflect from the crux of this particular matter, rather than as a gate to a more wider contemplation.
I mean there’s not much point chatting about diving off the high board if the company you’re keeping isn’t even willing to get in the pool.
I’d be interested to see what would actually happen if some of the circuit were more vocal on this topic. Not that I wish anyone to risk their livelihood. I think sportswashers are generally too savvy to actually punitively respond to foreigners being critical, they tend to save it for their own citizens.
It just feels disappointing to me, people absolutely went to a justified pitchfork level of opprobrium against Blizzard with the whole Blitzcheung [sic?] but Saudi Arabia using SC2 as an image booster and we get crickets?
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Don't worry, when the saudis cancel someone it doesn't turn into a Blitzchung fiasko.
Like the Khashoggi incident showed, all that happens is a little torture in a back room, followed by some hack-sawing and disposing of the remains in suitcases. It won't be a public affair in the slightest.
But you know, everyone can support whatever they want to.
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On May 11 2024 00:02 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
His nonchalant dismissal of people who have concerns about sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators as "hypocritical" is irritating.
My guy, why do you keep repeating this? It's not what I said at all. I even started the phrase with "if you're PLAYING in ESL tournaments" when mentioning it's hypocritical to be fine with one but not the other. I don't understand why you're feeling personally attacked when the quote doesn't even apply to you. I'm clearly only talking about players here.
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United Kingdom20343 Posts
I respect your opinion here, but really dislike it. If every person in the SC2 scene boycotted the tournament funded by the SMoS in unison and all the pro's stood in opposition, it would make zero difference in how the government regime treats it's people, all it does is take money away from the professionals who grind day and night to maintain that skill.
I'm heavily secular and disagree with practically everything Saudi Arabia does, but if there is a Saudi backed tournament that's gonna put money into the pro's pocket and keep this scene alive, I'm gonna sit down and enjoy it. Two things can be true at once ya know.
Safety is a bigger issue. Many players and fans can't take part in said tournaments because they're in SA, so going down the "we'll get more money if we play in SA" route is just throwing them under the bus in the name of money from unfair and uninclusive competition.
There are clear, easy alternatives that assholes are just choosing not to take.
Such events shouldn't even be featured on TL at all
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On May 11 2024 01:07 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2024 00:02 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
It is not complicated.
As a viewer: If you watch StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value your entertainment above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators.
As a player/team owner/caster/host/organiser: If you participate in StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value making a living above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators.
I argue that the choice for the first group should be an easy one: quit watching and watch something else. There is an overabundance of entertainment products on the market.
For the second group, I understand it is not an easy choice since you can't just switch to a different game or career or business.
Kelazhur's answer makes it seem like he doesn't care where the money comes from, as long as he his paid to play StarCraft II. His nonchalant dismissal of people who have concerns about sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators as "hypocritical" is irritating. I'm impressed you don't wear anything from a sweatshop, don't order on amazon, don't eat chic fil a and never drive a car. (where does the oil come from?) We all make concessions in our daily life. I'm fine with you feeling the way you do, but I hope you don't cast judgement on those who choose this particular thing as one of those concessions.
But that's the thing, isn't it? It IS about judging ones own choices and also judging others choices! How else does change start? A lot of civil movements or social changes as well as changes in our capitalistic system started by people asking the hard questions and judging others. Is it nice and comfortable? Of course not! Will anything or anybody change if I just "let it be"? Nope.
In my opinion this is not a valid approach to these kind of topics because then nothing ever will happen for the things I feel are better values and a better way of life and a better way to structure a society.
Secondly - you and others asking the same questions shows a difficult argument - what has to happen for you and others to accept one persons questions and approach and yes, judgment?
This is whataboutism at its worst. What does it matter if I or others, questioning the Saudi money in SC2, do drive a car, buy at amazon or whatever and still ask and question and judge?
Following this logic, it could seem that I would only be acceptable as an critic if I show you my "credencials" of living an "authentic" life according to my standards that I as well are applying to you.
I refuse to go down that road - I even started typing my response by listing all my actions and all my approaches to how I try to live an ethic live according to all the standards that I feel are important. Then I decided against it because it will lead to nothing.
Me sitting on my desktop typing away on my chinese keyboard already disqualifies me of being part of a bigger conversation or judging and questioning your choices? Then we will never reach anything!
I am very curious to see where all of this will lead us as SC-Community and as Gaming Communities worldwide...
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I'm just curious that how many of you have been to Russia, China, Saudi or other countries from a world you are not familiar with. People are only willing to believing things that they wanna believe. Labelling a country is definitely an easier way to treat this world, right?
I come from one of these countries and have been used to pointless offensive words from English communities. That's funny, especially when seeing people show their hates to some news filtered by their countries' medias. But the most important things is, your hate changes nothing here. Some may believe resistance makes us all ears, the truth is we will never hear until you become friendly. Maybe coming to these countries and seeing their developments with your own eyes will be a good start. Then you can make your judgement supported by more solid things.
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Northern Ireland27339 Posts
On May 16 2024 17:38 AlexGano wrote:
I'm just curious that how many of you have been to Russia, China, Saudi or other countries from a world you are not familiar with. People are only willing to believing things that they wanna believe. Labelling a country is definitely an easier way to treat this world, right?
I come from one of these countries and have been used to pointless offensive words from English communities. That's funny, especially when seeing people show their hates to some news filtered by their countries' medias. But the most important things is, your hate changes nothing here. Some may believe resistance makes us all ears, the truth is we will never hear until you become friendly. Maybe coming to these countries and seeing their developments with your own eyes will be a good start. Then you can make your judgement supported by more solid things.
Which one?
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EPT
