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Branch.AUT
Austria853 Posts
It is my opinion, that decapitating a person, for how they are born, or what they believe in is wrong. And therefore shouldn't be rewarded with tourism money. If pro-gamers like Kelazhur want to cooperte with people who carry these executions, they are free to do so. I on't be cheering for it. And I will keep bringing up this situation, because I think it is imporant that the people watching don't get to hide behind ignorance. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26359 Posts
On May 17 2024 15:51 Lambertus wrote: I agree that corporate greed and questionable values were and are always part of capitalism and so from the gaming industry! My statement was intended as a more general question - stuff like this (sports washing) is supposed to change peoples perceptions in the long term, that was what I was referring to  And as we can see, I might very well be successful in some cases. On the other hand I feel like FIFA fucked up and will sooner or later reap the rewards. The football European Championship is one thing, but the plans for the World Cup are just hideous! At least in my circles I know a lot of people who actually already stopped watching football, and for Germans that means a lot :-DThey’re absolutely ridiculous and FIFA can fuck right off, pardon my French Reverend! Although interesting to know we have clergy amongst Liquidians Part of the fun of the World Cup feast of football is taking it to new cultures and around the globe. But two such tournaments in the period of my life I’m old enough/have funds enough to actually travel are in the Gulf, where aside from other issues, some fans are not going to be welcome. Sportswashing can actually backfire, I’d argue it’s not all that effective in what it aims to do. Football fans in England and France, bar supporters of particular clubs don’t look any more warmly on Abu Dhabi or Qatar for wrecking the competitive balance of their top leagues. More people became aware of not just social issues, but worker conditions when Qatar invited the microscope due to hosting the World Cup and thousands of migrant workers dying to construct World Cup stadiums exposed generally horrendous conditions. With the Saudi money involvement in eSports I’m certainly not a fan. Not just ethically, but I don’t think there’s any evidence of much interest in the scene outside of vanity. Gamer’s 8 was played with lag, they funded fun but pointless show matches and haven’t put any money into tournaments such as GSL. Who’s travelling to Saudi Arabia, and half of the Katowice broadcast was hyping up spots for this Saudi thing. Katowice is Katowice, a WC equivalent and a jewel in our crown for years, why minimise it as some qualifier for another tourney? I’d still have my ethical concerns if some Crown Prince was a massive StarCraft fan, but given how the money has been implemented I see little evidence of that and a lot for Saudi sportswashing in action. Meanwhile back to FIFA, England is, much as we have our rivalry and enjoy ribbing our rather arrogant neighbours, absolutely the best potential World Cup host going and will be approaching a century since its hosted by the time this cycle is over. It’s a football mad nation, it’s got sufficient infrastructure, it’s basically the only country in the world that has sizeable professional football going down 3/4 divisions, so stadia is not a problem. FIFA have made the World Cup so bloated that no South American country minus Brazil can actually host it solo anymore, never mind much of Africa, Asia and the Arab world. Understandably, and one thing I can say in FIFA’s favour is they have spread it around, you can’t just have it in Europe or the US every time. But that leaves precious little candidates, except Gulf States are perfectly happy spaffing billions on white elephant infrastructure because they’re not bound by the same kinds of concerns many other nations will have. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26359 Posts
On May 17 2024 21:23 Branch.AUT wrote: In 2022 Saudi Arabia executed 196 people, by decapitation, for crimes like "abandoning islam", "homosexuality" or "blasphemy" - not believing in the one true god. It is my opinion, that decapitating a person, for how they are born, or what they believe in is wrong. And therefore shouldn't be rewarded with tourism money. If pro-gamers like Kelazhur want to cooperte with people who carry these executions, they are free to do so. I on't be cheering for it. And I will keep bringing up this situation, because I think it is imporant that the people watching don't get to hide behind ignorance. The issue with cultural relativism absolutely comes up when sportswashing enterprises starts nicking Western/global events There are plenty of non-Muslims, LGBTQ folks amongst us, so you’re just excluding people from events and scenes they were perfectly welcome in before. Or anyone that doesn’t want to enable these kind of moves for various moral reasons. I’m hearing so little from casters and players on the topic at this stage I can only assume there’s some kind of contractual obligation not to speak on it. The alternative is one of profound disappointment that everyone in a scene I cherish seemingly have no qualms with this state of affairs whatsoever? Are other eSports scenes similarly quiet? I don’t really follow any other games outside this genre | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17329 Posts
On May 17 2024 23:27 WombaT wrote: I’m hearing so little from casters and players on the topic at this stage I can only assume there’s some kind of contractual obligation not to speak on it. The alternative is one of profound disappointment that everyone in a scene I cherish seemingly have no qualms with this state of affairs whatsoever? Are other eSports scenes similarly quiet? I don’t really follow any other games outside this genre the paid "Stream Teams" of other video game franchises use "non disparagement" clauses to silence the top community figures. The Borderlands franchise pays its top guys a little bit of cash and gets them to sign on the dotted line. You will never hear one of these Borderlands "community figure heads" discuss how Pitchford chews through his very top employees like bubble gum. In addition, the community figureheads will never discuss the "thumb drive incident". Now, neither of these things could be a horrific crime against humanity. However, the top community people won't talk about it and if you bring up "What happened to Paul Sage.. that guy was awesome" ... you'll get crushed. I pretty much guarantee you the two topics I've brought up have been classified as breaking the non-disparagement agreement. You can talk about how some gun doesn't fire fast enough... or some end Boss has an immunity phase that is too long. But, they never get into the ugly stuff. “The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum....” , Noam Chomsky. | ||
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Branch.AUT
Austria853 Posts
On May 17 2024 23:27 WombaT wrote: The issue with cultural relativism absolutely comes up when sportswashing enterprises starts nicking Western/global events There are plenty of non-Muslims, LGBTQ folks amongst us, so you’re just excluding people from events and scenes they were perfectly welcome in before. Or anyone that doesn’t want to enable these kind of moves for various moral reasons. I’m hearing so little from casters and players on the topic at this stage I can only assume there’s some kind of contractual obligation not to speak on it. The alternative is one of profound disappointment that everyone in a scene I cherish seemingly have no qualms with this state of affairs whatsoever? Are other eSports scenes similarly quiet? I don’t really follow any other games outside this genre While I would welcome a public figure making a strong ethical statement, I don't expect to hear one. Ever. It is much much harder to permanently burn the bridge to the money land, if you depend on the income. Speaking out publicly against unethical treatment of minorities id akin to career suicide. I don't object to casters, palyers, production crews, taking the money. But be honest with yourself, and be honeat with the viewers about it. Admit to having the morals of a damp rag, and move on. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17329 Posts
On May 18 2024 00:24 Branch.AUT wrote: While I would welcome a public figure making a strong ethical statement, I don't expect to hear one. Ever. It is much much harder to permanently burn the bridge to the money land, if you depend on the income. Speaking out publicly against unethical treatment of minorities id akin to career suicide. I don't object to casters, palyers, production crews, taking the money. But be honest with yourself, and be honeat with the viewers about it. Admit to having the morals of a damp rag, and move on. I do not think it is career suicide any longer. With multiple independent media outlets you can easily talk into your webcam, do you own thing, and make plenty of cash. Decades ago... the elite rich had 100% control. That is no longer the case. Candace Owens is probably making more money now than she was working for the Daily Wire. Don Lemon got fired. He did fine. In fact, isn't he back at CNN? In the example I mentioned ... one of the most popular Borderlands streamers has been "excommunicated" by the publisher. They tried to unperson him. It only made him more popular. I'm talking about "MorninAfterKill". | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26359 Posts
On May 18 2024 00:24 Branch.AUT wrote: While I would welcome a public figure making a strong ethical statement, I don't expect to hear one. Ever. It is much much harder to permanently burn the bridge to the money land, if you depend on the income. Speaking out publicly against unethical treatment of minorities id akin to career suicide. I don't object to casters, palyers, production crews, taking the money. But be honest with yourself, and be honeat with the viewers about it. Admit to having the morals of a damp rag, and move on. Football did it with Qatar, other sports have seen folks speak out on similar topics. Granted football and golf are bigger, and most of those figures weren’t directly paid by those states, so there are some pertinent differences. I’m not expecting people to do what I wouldn’t do, it’s tough if jobs are on the line. I’m observing that the absolute absence of this is either linked to some kind of gagging order or at least the implication of negative consequences, or alternatively it’s the entirety of the scene having no misgivings whatsoever. The former strikes me as much more likely and is and of itself something that I have misgivings about. Players were free to, and often did express their issues in various domains with Blizzard or ESL were pulling the strings. Currently it’s crickets, and not just on sportswashing, I mean nobody seemed to even say much that the biggest LAN event of last year was played with considerable ping? With that in mind I think it’s all the more important for fans to have their say too, and hell, maybe do something tangible. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26359 Posts
On May 18 2024 00:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I do not think it is career suicide any longer. With multiple independent media outlets you can easily talk into your webcam, do you own thing, and make plenty of cash. Decades ago... the elite rich had 100% control. That is no longer the case. Candace Owens is probably making more money now than she was working for the Daily Wire. Don Lemon got fired. He did fine. In fact, isn't he back at CNN? In the example I mentioned ... one of the most popular Borderlands streamers has been "excommunicated" by the publisher. They tried to unperson him. It only made him more popular. I'm talking about "MorninAfterKill". It is career suicide if you’re a tournament player in a scene where the main tournament organiser is owned by the Saudi state. Less so if you’re more of a freelance caster character aye, although it may also rather limit your employment prospects if you wanna keep covering this particular game. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17329 Posts
On May 18 2024 03:45 WombaT wrote: It is career suicide if you’re a tournament player in a scene where the main tournament organiser is owned by the Saudi state. Less so if you’re more of a freelance caster character aye, although it may also rather limit your employment prospects if you wanna keep covering this particular game. SC2 has been in decline for 10+ years. If you position yourself to only make money is 1 single very narrow constantly declining way ... that's on you. You've snookered yourself and become prey for the sharks more than happy to eat you. What most people do is diversify. Artosis with Hearthstone, Incontrol with SC2 broadcasting and then after that as a general strategy game expert guy. Day9 got out of pro gaming and into several different things. Catz is making Zerospace. Grubby did 10 different things to make money as he diversified off of SC2.. etc etc etc. If. for example, person XYZ corners himself in such a way that he has to shill for this event... that's on him. He is not some kind of helpless victim. On May 17 2024 21:23 Branch.AUT wrote: In 2022 Saudi Arabia executed 196 people, by decapitation, for crimes like "abandoning islam", "homosexuality" or "blasphemy" - not believing in the one true god. It is my opinion, that decapitating a person, for how they are born, or what they believe in is wrong. And therefore shouldn't be rewarded with tourism money. If pro-gamers like Kelazhur want to cooperte with people who carry these executions, they are free to do so. I on't be cheering for it. And I will keep bringing up this situation, because I think it is imporant that the people watching don't get to hide behind ignorance. good points man. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26359 Posts
On May 18 2024 03:58 JimmyJRaynor wrote: SC2 has been in decline for 10+ years. If you position yourself to only make money is 1 single very narrow constantly declining way ... that's on you. You've snookered yourself and become prey for the sharks more than happy to eat you. What most people do is diversify. Artosis with Hearthstone, Incontrol with SC2 broadcasting and then after that as a general strategy game expert guy. Day9 got out of pro gaming and into several different things. Catz is making Zerospace. Grubby did 10 different things to make money as he diversified off of SC2.. etc etc etc. If. for example, person XYZ corners himself in such a way that he has to shill for this event... that's on him. He is not some kind of helpless victim. good points man. Regardless, that is how their bread is buttered currently Not everyone can pivot to be a media personality, which is effectively what Grubby, Tasteless, Artosis etc are, hell not all SC2 pros can even give a passable interview. If you’re a Serral, Maru, Clem level player you’re likely earning more bank than you’re ever going to again, even when you do transition to a decent regular gig. Its quite a big ask for players to take a hit if nobody else is, not the casters and content creators with more of a diverse source of income, and seemingly not the majority of fans. Much of professional sport doesn’t see people diversify their skillset all that much if they’re at the elite end, they’ve gotta focus on their competitive career for what is a short span, and start to pivot when they’re on the way out. If they don’t commit, they never get to the top end of their chosen field to begin with. I’d imagine many had just planned to make hay for a few years while the sun shined and then thought about next steps anyway, as the scene was gradually declining anyway. Which, incidentally I think it still is anyway, as under Saudi ESL isn’t building anything sustainable and is frontloading a ton of money into one tournament. They dangled the BW carrot last time, not this. I think SC2 is a nod to a prestige, at this stage ‘legacy’ game to give this craic some legitimacy and will be dropped in time. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17329 Posts
On May 18 2024 04:42 WombaT wrote: Regardless, that is how their bread is buttered currently Not everyone can pivot to be a media personality, which is effectively what Grubby, Tasteless, Artosis etc are, hell not all SC2 pros can even give a passable interview. Idra, Thorzain, Huk and CombatEx are not media personalities. They all moved on. Furthermore, you're infantalizing these people. SC2's long decline is not some unforeseeable act of god. I can go on and on and on... hundreds have moved on and/or diversified. And it is the common sense thing to do which is why so many left. SC2 has been declining for 10 years. This is why everyone has been leaving for many years. There are many things to pivot. These are not helpless children. These are full grown adults. If your only source of income is winning SC2 tourneys... that is the person's conscious choice. it is a career path no rational person would advise. Also, I never said working hard is easy. Most adults do this every day though. Most adults moved off of SC2 a super long time ago. Was it hard at the beginning? prolly. Welcome to the adult world. The SC2 pros I dealt with during the CraftCup told me all kinds of stories about the crazy lengths their teams had to go to get them paid their prize money. Prize money often took 5+ months to get paid out. Even though the CraftCup only paid $100... they got the cash the next day. They told me that was very rare and they were thankful for reliable money. So, SC2 Pros know very well what a super high risk business esports is. What does every rational adult do? Every adult minimizes risk. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
130 Posts
Sorry, but the SC2 scene since 2016 and maybe even earlier is as legitimateas the Saudi Arabian football league. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26359 Posts
It doesn’t really matter how sustainable the scene is, Serral’s pulled over a million dollars in prize money alone, never mind salary and sponsorship. Riding that train is absolutely the rational thing for him to do, a year or two isn’t going to massively inhibit him changing industries, and he sure as fuck isn’t going to be earning what he does currently if he did so today. If you’re not quite at the top anymore, very personable and articulate do a Grubby by all means, a man I have immense time for. Or realise your mentality maybe requires something wholly different and do what Idra did. They’re all valid courses of action. Nonetheless it wasn’t the crux of my point anyway, which is expecting players to be the ones to make a stand when they have the most to lose in doing so is unrealistic and probably unfair. I don’t wish to go too far off-topic | ||
Poopi
France12911 Posts
Like obviously they could make money somewhere else, but maybe they like playing sc2 (especially for as long as it lasts as an esports), and we like watching the top elite players play starcraft 2? "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" is kind of obvious, if they want to play Starcraft 2 competitively in 2024 it's their choice, if we want to watch it's our choice (as was said multiple times, every country in the entire world has probably some blood on their hand one way or another). Expressing concern as a viewer is fine, but expecting pros to speak negatively of their employer is naive at best. I dunno what it's like in Canada, but in France for example, it's explicitly forbidden to talk negatively about your employer, in ANY public context / medium, and you can get fired if you do it (even if it was like on your personal facebook / twitter feed or whatever, or in a street pub) | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
On May 15 2024 21:24 Kelazhur wrote: My guy, why do you keep repeating this? It's not what I said at all. I even started the phrase with "if you're PLAYING in ESL tournaments" when mentioning it's hypocritical to be fine with one but not the other. I don't understand why you're feeling personally attacked when the quote doesn't even apply to you. I'm clearly only talking about players here. Hi Diego, I don't feel personally attacked by your statements. I am disappointed by them. In the interview, StarCraft Historian asks you what you say to people that are critical of the large role that Saudi orgs are playing in the esports scene at the moment. Your response is that this is only the "natural progression" of things and players who are already partaking in Saudi-financed tournaments should not be "hypocritical" by speaking out about it. When I wrote you are being dismissive of people who criticize the sportswashing, this is what I meant. I don't agree with your view active players criticizing the role Saudi orgs have in SC2 at the moment would be hypocritical. On the contrary, I think this would show courage and integrity. | ||
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