EPTI've had a lot going on over the last few weeks and missed some uploads, but that changes today. When chatting with Diego at IEM Katowice 2024, we covered a lot of ground; from the differences in management style between TL and Root, to gauging success and improvement as a pro. Kelazhur is not only an incredibly skilled player, but also a friendly and insightful person. I hope you all find this piece as fun and interesting as I did!
Kelazhur Talks: Saudis in SC2, Balance, & more...
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StarcraftHistorian
United States135 Posts
I've had a lot going on over the last few weeks and missed some uploads, but that changes today. When chatting with Diego at IEM Katowice 2024, we covered a lot of ground; from the differences in management style between TL and Root, to gauging success and improvement as a pro. Kelazhur is not only an incredibly skilled player, but also a friendly and insightful person. I hope you all find this piece as fun and interesting as I did! | ||
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PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
StarCraft Historian: So, you know, obviously representing a Saudi org now and uh seeing the whole scene sort of developing around uh these uh Saudi Investments and things of that nature um there's uh you know a bit of criticism from some people as well about this sort of development within the scene. What would you say to people that are somewhat critical to the large role that Saudi orgs are playing uh in the esports scene at the moment? Kelazhur: I can understand I guess the concern of some people but that's that just became the natural progression of things especially after the acquisition ESL by Savvy Gaming Group um like if you're playing an ESL tournament you're already partaking in the Saudi investment and it's just hypocritical to, you know, pick and choose which one uh you're going to disapprove of but I understand that these things have a lot of nuance to them and it's always more complicated than what you really see um in the end Starcraft is you know there there's like there's not that many tournaments going on and as a player the only way I can survive is by playing all of them right yeah um so what can you do? [laughs] StarCraft Historian: yeah yeah no yeah I I think that is the mindset and also what you said it really hits the nail on the head in the sense that like yeah they own ESL right so like you either are going to partake in in these like Saudi run events or you're not going to play StarCraft um and or and many other games really at this point um Kelazhur: so yeah no that in the end I mean we're all just united by our love for the game. What I got from this interview is that Kelazhur doesn't care where the money comes from as long he is paid to play StarCraft II. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
On May 08 2024 10:45 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: The questions about Kelazhur representing a Saudi Arabian organization now with R8 Esports and about the dependency of competitive StarCraft II on investments by the Saudi Ministry of Sport come at 22:49. What I got from this interview is that Kelazhur doesn't care where the money comes from as long he is paid to play StarCraft II. More $$ for him if women and LGBTQ people are excluded | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
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Comedy
456 Posts
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ZeroByte13
760 Posts
And yes, the only alternative is for everyone to quite the game and more or less end pro-SC2-scene completely. But then we should also stop buying any China-made products to not support Chinese government, I guess. Oh, and now that we know what has been happening in Blizzard all this time - probably we should stop playing their games altogether. | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
What I like about these interviews is that StarCraft Historian keeps asking about the issue. Even his softball approach reveals something about what people think. | ||
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Ciaus237
South Africa279 Posts
Overall agree with Croc's assessment. | ||
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AlexGano
28 Posts
Do you guys think your resistance to these middle east countries can change women status within? By stopping them getting into modern world? You are just making things worse if you believe that. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
Diego most probably meant SC2 players SC2 players are directly in the line of fire when many of these tournaments are held with mandatory attendance in Saudi Arabia. Such a statement is selling out their physical safety and/or ability to compete in the game at all in order to have better odds at personal money and fame. Even if the game were at the height of its popularity, it's not worth that. Any game that needs to threaten a subset of competitors and fans with incarceration or physical harm / death in order to live should die. I don't see any valid argument against this. | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
On May 08 2024 18:01 AlexGano wrote: Do you guys think your resistance to these middle east countries can change women status within? By stopping them getting into modern world? You are just making things worse if you believe that. The rulers of Saudi Arabia are in the modern world, but their view of what the modern world should be like is abhorrent. Change through Trade is a failed policy. We learned that the hard way with Russia. Cozying up to repressive systems only emboldens them. | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2222 Posts
The weighting therefore becomes a matter of whether you value your enjoyment of SC2 as a greater good than jeopardizing the Saudis. For someone from outside the scene, the answer may seem obvious, but we are all fighting our own personal battles, and for many, myself included, Starcraft offers comfort and a sweet melancholic feeling essentially to our mental health and dealing with difficult times. Taking that away is a sacrifice many are not willing to take, and in my eyes, understandably so. Pro-Gamers making a living off SC2 may have other choices, but working a minimum-wage job, as an untrained person, for example, seems unfeasible compared to doing what you love for a living and being paid well in addition. My point is that the moral dilemma is more deep and multifaceted than when just taken at face value, and while i hate the backwards, LGBTQ adverse, chauvinist, just overall f*cked up Saudis, i am unwilling to sacrifice the comfort SC2 brings me, and this is just the reality many of us find themselves in. I am heavily conflicted. Let's say I spoke to someone like Scarlett about this matter, someone who would be executed or tortured in Saudi Arabia just for being "different" to their expectations, I would feel like the biggest POS ever, and could certainly not justify myself. On the other hand, the prospect of me sitting down after a long day of work, watching the best SC2 action in their 1.000.000$ tournament fills me with excitement, solace and comfort. Does that make me a bad person? That's for each and everyone themselves to decide. For me personally, dirty, bloody Saudi money keeping SC2 alive is better than not having it at all. I also completely understand people shunning me for my views, and i cannot fault them.  | ||
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Ciaus237
South Africa279 Posts
On May 08 2024 21:36 SharkStarcraft wrote: + Show Spoiler + It's a complex, convoluted mess. At face value, the Saudi regime's values are horrible and should not be supported or provided with a platform whatsoever. Given the state of Starcraft II, however, this may mean that the competitive scene completely ceases to exist, with GSL being in its last year of running time and ESL already taken over by the Saudis. The weighting therefore becomes a matter of whether you value your enjoyment of SC2 as a greater good than jeopardizing the Saudis. For someone from outside the scene, the answer may seem obvious, but we are all fighting our own personal battles, and for many, myself included, Starcraft offers comfort and a sweet melancholic feeling essentially to our mental health and dealing with difficult times. Taking that away is a sacrifice many are not willing to take, and in my eyes, understandably so. Pro-Gamers making a living off SC2 may have other choices, but working a minimum-wage job, as an untrained person, for example, seems unfeasible compared to doing what you love for a living and being paid well in addition. My point is that the moral dilemma is more deep and multifaceted than when just taken at face value, and while i hate the backwards, LGBTQ adverse, chauvinist, just overall f*cked up Saudis, i am unwilling to sacrifice the comfort SC2 brings me, and this is just the reality many of us find themselves in. I am heavily conflicted. Let's say I spoke to someone like Scarlett about this matter, someone who would be executed or tortured in Saudi Arabia just for being "different" to their expectations, I would feel like the biggest POS ever, and could certainly not justify myself. On the other hand, the prospect of me sitting down after a long day of work, watching the best SC2 action in their 1.000.000$ tournament fills me with excitement, solace and comfort. Does that make me a bad person? That's for each and everyone themselves to decide. For me personally, dirty, bloody Saudi money keeping SC2 alive is better than not having it at all. I also completely understand people shunning me for my views, and i cannot fault them. This is a very lucid, honest assessment, and a good explanation of both some of the difficulties here and your stance. Much appreciated. Personally I feel quite similarly, with the caveat that it certainly reduces how much of it I watch, and want to watch. What I am not fond of is the handwaving and dismissing around this that we see sometimes (such as in Kela's interview). He's making the choice that his career and participation in this matters more. Can't blame him for that at all, but we shouldn't pretend it's not a choice (and one with a clear drawback at that). | ||
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rwala
279 Posts
On May 08 2024 21:36 SharkStarcraft wrote: It's a complex, convoluted mess. At face value, the Saudi regime's values are horrible and should not be supported or provided with a platform whatsoever. Given the state of Starcraft II, however, this may mean that the competitive scene completely ceases to exist, with GSL being in its last year of running time and ESL already taken over by the Saudis. The weighting therefore becomes a matter of whether you value your enjoyment of SC2 as a greater good than jeopardizing the Saudis. For someone from outside the scene, the answer may seem obvious, but we are all fighting our own personal battles, and for many, myself included, Starcraft offers comfort and a sweet melancholic feeling essentially to our mental health and dealing with difficult times. Taking that away is a sacrifice many are not willing to take, and in my eyes, understandably so. Pro-Gamers making a living off SC2 may have other choices, but working a minimum-wage job, as an untrained person, for example, seems unfeasible compared to doing what you love for a living and being paid well in addition. My point is that the moral dilemma is more deep and multifaceted than when just taken at face value, and while i hate the backwards, LGBTQ adverse, chauvinist, just overall f*cked up Saudis, i am unwilling to sacrifice the comfort SC2 brings me, and this is just the reality many of us find themselves in. I am heavily conflicted. Let's say I spoke to someone like Scarlett about this matter, someone who would be executed or tortured in Saudi Arabia just for being "different" to their expectations, I would feel like the biggest POS ever, and could certainly not justify myself. On the other hand, the prospect of me sitting down after a long day of work, watching the best SC2 action in their 1.000.000$ tournament fills me with excitement, solace and comfort. Does that make me a bad person? That's for each and everyone themselves to decide. For me personally, dirty, bloody Saudi money keeping SC2 alive is better than not having it at all. I also completely understand people shunning me for my views, and i cannot fault them. Appreciate the attempt at honest engagement, but the choice isn't that stark. This isn't between pro-gamers continuing their career or instead working a minimum-wage job. Or you watching this tourney and SC2's existence. Watch your tourney, and use whatever platform you have to call out the Saudi gov't for its horrible human rights record. Not so tragic, right? | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
129 Posts
If you prefer an 'alive scene' (which it hasn't been in a decade) because you want to watch some stupid game over your morals, you have also failed as an individual. Meanwhile, 99 percent of the BW scene is funded by fans and donations. Instead of supporting that, you support SC2. Funny. | ||
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AlexGano
28 Posts
On May 08 2024 21:14 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: The rulers of Saudi Arabia are in the modern world, but their view of what the modern world should be like is abhorrent. Change through Trade is a failed policy. We learned that the hard way with Russia. Cozying up to repressive systems only emboldens them. You mentioned Russia, we usually think it's a politic problem. I don't think Russia has any mistakes on defending its own country safety just like how US reacted in Cuba missile crisis. But when we talk about Arabia, it's a conflict between traditional culture and modern views. Read more history and it will tell you what matters more is young generations instead of rulers. When more and more common young people in arabia countries are accessible to modern concept, then changes will happen through a slow but safe way. But if anyone from outside is just blaming and saying "you are not welcomed", then next generation will still act like what their parents taught, and women keeps their suffering years by years with nothing changed. | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
On May 09 2024 11:27 AlexGano wrote: You mentioned Russia, we usually think it's a politic problem. I don't think Russia has any mistakes on defending its own country safety just like how US reacted in Cuba missile crisis. Russia is not defending its own country in Ukraine. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is a war of aggression and conquest. I don't think it can be compared to the Cuban Missile Crisis in any shape or form. On May 09 2024 11:27 AlexGano wrote: When more and more common young people in arabia countries are accessible to modern concept, then changes will happen through a slow but safe way. But if anyone from outside is just blaming and saying "you are not welcomed", then next generation will still act like what their parents taught, and women keeps their suffering years by years with nothing changed. I am not sure what you mean with "arabia countries". We are discussing specifically Saudi Arabia here because the Saudi Ministry of Sport is using StarCraft II for sportswashing. The idea that exposure of young people to different ideas will automatically and safely lead to change seems overly simplistic to me, to say the least. It does not address how power structures in complex societies work at all. Here is a different view: If young people in Saudi Arabia see that their repressive system and the atrocities committed under it are being criticized by the international community and actually get some pushback, does that make change more or less likely? I am curious what you think. | ||
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AlexGano
28 Posts
On May 09 2024 13:21 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: I am not sure what you mean with "arabia countries". We are discussing specifically Saudi Arabia here because the Saudi Ministry of Sport is using StarCraft II for sportswashing. The idea that exposure of young people to different ideas will automatically and safely lead to change seems overly simplistic to me, to say the least. It does not address how power structures in complex societies work at all. Here is a different view: If young people in Saudi Arabia see that their repressive system and the atrocities committed under it are being criticized by the international community and actually get some pushback, does that make change more or less likely? I am curious what you think. If they are banned from more international events, why should they be interested in how people outside view them? Come on, most of them don't even speak English. If you are not friendly then they lost any reason to read your opinion. Criticism sounds more like an over simplistic way to treat Saudi's involvement. I don't want to talk a lot about Russia-Ukraine problem but NATO is never a friendly military organization to Russia. Let Ukraine get in NATO is just putting Russia under knife of US. | ||
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StarcraftHistorian
United States135 Posts
On May 08 2024 03:45 PtitDrogo wrote: I don't know how diegod keeps getting prettier what a legend He is a handsome fella indeed =D | ||
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StarcraftHistorian
United States135 Posts
On May 08 2024 21:36 SharkStarcraft wrote: It's a complex, convoluted mess. At face value, the Saudi regime's values are horrible and should not be supported or provided with a platform whatsoever. Given the state of Starcraft II, however, this may mean that the competitive scene completely ceases to exist, with GSL being in its last year of running time and ESL already taken over by the Saudis. The weighting therefore becomes a matter of whether you value your enjoyment of SC2 as a greater good than jeopardizing the Saudis. For someone from outside the scene, the answer may seem obvious, but we are all fighting our own personal battles, and for many, myself included, Starcraft offers comfort and a sweet melancholic feeling essentially to our mental health and dealing with difficult times. Taking that away is a sacrifice many are not willing to take, and in my eyes, understandably so. Pro-Gamers making a living off SC2 may have other choices, but working a minimum-wage job, as an untrained person, for example, seems unfeasible compared to doing what you love for a living and being paid well in addition. My point is that the moral dilemma is more deep and multifaceted than when just taken at face value, and while i hate the backwards, LGBTQ adverse, chauvinist, just overall f*cked up Saudis, i am unwilling to sacrifice the comfort SC2 brings me, and this is just the reality many of us find themselves in. I am heavily conflicted. Let's say I spoke to someone like Scarlett about this matter, someone who would be executed or tortured in Saudi Arabia just for being "different" to their expectations, I would feel like the biggest POS ever, and could certainly not justify myself. On the other hand, the prospect of me sitting down after a long day of work, watching the best SC2 action in their 1.000.000$ tournament fills me with excitement, solace and comfort. Does that make me a bad person? That's for each and everyone themselves to decide. For me personally, dirty, bloody Saudi money keeping SC2 alive is better than not having it at all. I also completely understand people shunning me for my views, and i cannot fault them. I definitely hear this | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10324 Posts
Each person has their own views, and there are many many things to consider. Nothing wrong or inaccurate about what he said really. He was asked a question on the spot, his answer was pretty good. He wasn't given time to type out a nuanced essay. Everyone's lives are different, and have differing degrees of privilege. It's easier for some people to have the allowance to make sacrifice for their morals, and it's harder for others. A personal choice you make for yourself, you cannot harshly judge others for not making the same decision, as I'm sure no one here is perfect and each cares about their own moralistic issues relevant in their life, and I'm sure some people who for example would be OK with watching/playing in ESL tournaments wouldn't be OK with doing certain other things. When it comes to judging others, it also cannot simply be about the "bad" things you do, but the "good" things. You can see how messy it already gets, as not everyone even agrees with this and thinks moreso that it should just be about not doing any bad things. Nothing wrong with expressing opinions though of course if done so in a constructive manner. But there are many bad things and issues in the world, yes human rights are one of the biggest but there are many different topics and issues that different people care about. I don't know if what I'm saying counts as whataboutism (haven't heard that term before reading the topic on TL), but things are complicated and that's just true. | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
As a viewer: If you watch StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value your entertainment above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators. As a player/team owner/caster/host/organiser: If you participate in StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value making a living above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators. I argue that the choice for the first group should be an easy one: quit watching and watch something else. There is an overabundance of entertainment products on the market. For the second group, I understand it is not an easy choice since you can't just switch to a different game or career or business. Kelazhur's answer makes it seem like he doesn't care where the money comes from, as long as he his paid to play StarCraft II. His nonchalant dismissal of people who have concerns about sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators as "hypocritical" is irritating. | ||
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lokol4890
108 Posts
On May 11 2024 00:02 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: It is not complicated. As a viewer: If you watch StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value your entertainment above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators. As a player/team owner/caster/host/organiser: If you participate in StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value making a living above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators. I argue that the choice for the first group should be an easy one: quit watching and watch something else. There is an overabundance of entertainment products on the market. For the second group, I understand it is not an easy choice since you can't just switch to a different game or career or business. Kelazhur's answer makes it seem like he doesn't care where the money comes from, as long as he his paid to play StarCraft II. His nonchalant dismissal of people who have concerns about sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators as "hypocritical" is irritating. It is complicated because you can make the same literal argument for the west. We're seeing first hand literal genocide supported by the west. Let me ask you, are you going to stop watching any west-created media? The problem is no one has actual clean hands, which turns the debate into "where do you draw the line" or "are you putting your head in the sand to ignore when your country engages in similar human rights violations that you care about"? | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1847 Posts
On May 11 2024 00:02 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: It is not complicated. As a viewer: If you watch StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value your entertainment above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators. As a player/team owner/caster/host/organiser: If you participate in StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value making a living above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators. I argue that the choice for the first group should be an easy one: quit watching and watch something else. There is an overabundance of entertainment products on the market. For the second group, I understand it is not an easy choice since you can't just switch to a different game or career or business. Kelazhur's answer makes it seem like he doesn't care where the money comes from, as long as he his paid to play StarCraft II. His nonchalant dismissal of people who have concerns about sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators as "hypocritical" is irritating. I'm impressed you don't wear anything from a sweatshop, don't order on amazon, don't eat chic fil a and never drive a car. (where does the oil come from?) We all make concessions in our daily life. I'm fine with you feeling the way you do, but I hope you don't cast judgement on those who choose this particular thing as one of those concessions. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 08 2024 16:27 ZeroByte13 wrote: And yes, the only alternative is for everyone to quite the game and more or less end pro-SC2-scene completely. But then we should also stop buying any China-made products to not support Chinese government, I guess. Oh, and now that we know what has been happening in Blizzard all this time - probably we should stop playing their games altogether. I think there's a difference between a Chinese company or people making products, and a Saudi state owned body funding things for obvious reasons Not every person supports everything their government does or represents them. | ||
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v5872012
35 Posts
And now people are talking about how Kelazhur doesn't care where the money comes from. I wonder whether they ever think about this question when they're riding their car, taking the bus, or simply enjoying their electricity where their homes are powered by Saudis natural gas? Complaining about whether ESL is owned by Saudis or SC2 is funded by Saudis is such a meaningless discussion. The only thing it does is satisfy some hypocritical moral values that do nothing to either Saudis or their LGBTQ community. | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
Where we are not dependent is in the entertainment industry. This is a sector where we, as consumers, can try to make ethical choices. I don't think the discussion about this is meaningless. | ||
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baldgye
United Kingdom1092 Posts
I do think though, that it's somewhat unfair to bring this to the table of the players. They are competitive athletes (for lack of a better word), and they are driven to compete and to win, they have to be selfish and single minded in this pursuit. So, while it's fun to debate the merits of this player representing an abhorrent regime, at the end of the day their focus has to be on playing the game and playing the game alone. It's for the game and the sport to make it so that people like the Saudi's can't come in and make it something it wasn't ever supposed to be. And if Blizzard don't care then the only option is to simply stop watching, talking about and partaking in events funded and created by the Saudi's and focus on events created and run by the scene, rather than chasing the money. | ||
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iRkSupperman
Norway130 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25014 Posts
On May 11 2024 10:42 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: I agree the global economy is currently dependent on Saudi oil as they are in the top 3 of oil producing countries, behind the USA and Russia. In natural gas production, Saudi Arabia is closer to the bottom of the top 10, but they aim to increase their production. Where we are not dependent is in the entertainment industry. This is a sector where we, as consumers, can try to make ethical choices. I don't think the discussion about this is meaningless. Absolutely, we’re not really in a spot where we can untether ourselves from fossil fuels, and thus there’s some degree of dependence on big producers. The realm of a professional StarCraft scene is not one that is innately dependent on such concerns. It’s not like other avenues have been tried, or the Saudi state has some deep love for StarCraft. GSL had some success in extremis via crowdfunding which I think shows at least some appetite | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On May 11 2024 00:02 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: It is not complicated. As a viewer: If you watch StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value your entertainment above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators. As a player/team owner/caster/host/organiser: If you participate in StarCraft II tournaments funded by the Saudi Ministry of Sports, you value making a living above standing up to sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators. I argue that the choice for the first group should be an easy one: quit watching and watch something else. There is an overabundance of entertainment products on the market. For the second group, I understand it is not an easy choice since you can't just switch to a different game or career or business. Kelazhur's answer makes it seem like he doesn't care where the money comes from, as long as he his paid to play StarCraft II. His nonchalant dismissal of people who have concerns about sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators as "hypocritical" is irritating. I respect your opinion here, but really dislike it. If every person in the SC2 scene boycotted the tournament funded by the SMoS in unison and all the pro's stood in opposition, it would make zero difference in how the government regime treats it's people, all it does is take money away from the professionals who grind day and night to maintain that skill. I'm heavily secular and disagree with practically everything Saudi Arabia does, but if there is a Saudi backed tournament that's gonna put money into the pro's pocket and keep this scene alive, I'm gonna sit down and enjoy it. Two things can be true at once ya know. I'm typing on a mechanical keyboard and PC that's surely made with child slave labor somewhere in the pipeline of it's creation, should I throw away my PC and phone away? Should I stop driving my car because most American oil is purchased from OPEC, thereby fueling their human rights violations by proxy? Where do you draw the line exactly on these types of issues? I'm not gonna judge you for your opinion, even if I don't like it. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16674 Posts
On May 15 2024 11:58 Beelzebub1 wrote: all it does is take money away from the professionals who grind day and night to maintain that skill. it is not an important skill though. its not like farming or carpentry or teaching children. those are important skills. Also, acquiring elite skill in an RTS is by its nature unhealthy. Sitting for long periods is bad. Staring for long periods into a flat 2D screen under artificial lighting is bad. Myopia is an epidemic in Korea partially due to all the screen time involved in video game playing. most brood war pros got paid peanuts and were ground into sawdust living under horrible working conditions. Therefore, if SC2 pros are not doing a "grind day and night" to keep up their skills I do not think it is much of a loss for any one. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25014 Posts
On May 15 2024 11:58 Beelzebub1 wrote: I respect your opinion here, but really dislike it. If every person in the SC2 scene boycotted the tournament funded by the SMoS in unison and all the pro's stood in opposition, it would make zero difference in how the government regime treats it's people, all it does is take money away from the professionals who grind day and night to maintain that skill. I'm heavily secular and disagree with practically everything Saudi Arabia does, but if there is a Saudi backed tournament that's gonna put money into the pro's pocket and keep this scene alive, I'm gonna sit down and enjoy it. Two things can be true at once ya know. I'm typing on a mechanical keyboard and PC that's surely made with child slave labor somewhere in the pipeline of it's creation, should I throw away my PC and phone away? Should I stop driving my car because most American oil is purchased from OPEC, thereby fueling their human rights violations by proxy? Where do you draw the line exactly on these types of issues? I'm not gonna judge you for your opinion, even if I don't like it. It does require some drawing of arbitrary lines sure. But this somewhat ticks the boxes of being a very easy issue to somewhat investigate, and a relatively easy sacrifice to make. Some things I own have undoubtedly been produced unethically, to what degree gets trickier to ascertain the more moving parts, companies in different countries etc. It doesn’t really get more cut and dry than directly funded by the Saudi state. Nor, as big of a fan as I am would my life be more inconvenient if I dropped following a few SC2 tournies. Certainly not compared to exhaustively researching manufacturing and supply chains of everything I buy, or not using any vehicles that use petrol. I think wider concerns are absolutely worth bringing up too, but they almost invariably are brought up in a manner to deflect from the crux of this particular matter, rather than as a gate to a more wider contemplation. I mean there’s not much point chatting about diving off the high board if the company you’re keeping isn’t even willing to get in the pool. I’d be interested to see what would actually happen if some of the circuit were more vocal on this topic. Not that I wish anyone to risk their livelihood. I think sportswashers are generally too savvy to actually punitively respond to foreigners being critical, they tend to save it for their own citizens. It just feels disappointing to me, people absolutely went to a justified pitchfork level of opprobrium against Blizzard with the whole Blitzcheung [sic?] but Saudi Arabia using SC2 as an image booster and we get crickets? | ||
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Branch.AUT
Austria853 Posts
Like the Khashoggi incident showed, all that happens is a little torture in a back room, followed by some hack-sawing and disposing of the remains in suitcases. It won't be a public affair in the slightest. But you know, everyone can support whatever they want to. | ||
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Kelazhur
Brazil57 Posts
On May 11 2024 00:02 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: His nonchalant dismissal of people who have concerns about sportswashing of pervasive human rights violators as "hypocritical" is irritating. My guy, why do you keep repeating this? It's not what I said at all. I even started the phrase with "if you're PLAYING in ESL tournaments" when mentioning it's hypocritical to be fine with one but not the other. I don't understand why you're feeling personally attacked when the quote doesn't even apply to you. I'm clearly only talking about players here. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
I respect your opinion here, but really dislike it. If every person in the SC2 scene boycotted the tournament funded by the SMoS in unison and all the pro's stood in opposition, it would make zero difference in how the government regime treats it's people, all it does is take money away from the professionals who grind day and night to maintain that skill. I'm heavily secular and disagree with practically everything Saudi Arabia does, but if there is a Saudi backed tournament that's gonna put money into the pro's pocket and keep this scene alive, I'm gonna sit down and enjoy it. Two things can be true at once ya know. Safety is a bigger issue. Many players and fans can't take part in said tournaments because they're in SA, so going down the "we'll get more money if we play in SA" route is just throwing them under the bus in the name of money from unfair and uninclusive competition. There are clear, easy alternatives that assholes are just choosing not to take. Such events shouldn't even be featured on TL at all | ||
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Lambertus
South Africa969 Posts
On May 11 2024 01:07 Mizenhauer wrote: I'm impressed you don't wear anything from a sweatshop, don't order on amazon, don't eat chic fil a and never drive a car. (where does the oil come from?) We all make concessions in our daily life. I'm fine with you feeling the way you do, but I hope you don't cast judgement on those who choose this particular thing as one of those concessions. But that's the thing, isn't it? It IS about judging ones own choices and also judging others choices! How else does change start? A lot of civil movements or social changes as well as changes in our capitalistic system started by people asking the hard questions and judging others. Is it nice and comfortable? Of course not! Will anything or anybody change if I just "let it be"? Nope. In my opinion this is not a valid approach to these kind of topics because then nothing ever will happen for the things I feel are better values and a better way of life and a better way to structure a society. Secondly - you and others asking the same questions shows a difficult argument - what has to happen for you and others to accept one persons questions and approach and yes, judgment? This is whataboutism at its worst. What does it matter if I or others, questioning the Saudi money in SC2, do drive a car, buy at amazon or whatever and still ask and question and judge? Following this logic, it could seem that I would only be acceptable as an critic if I show you my "credencials" of living an "authentic" life according to my standards that I as well are applying to you. I refuse to go down that road - I even started typing my response by listing all my actions and all my approaches to how I try to live an ethic live according to all the standards that I feel are important. Then I decided against it because it will lead to nothing. Me sitting on my desktop typing away on my chinese keyboard already disqualifies me of being part of a bigger conversation or judging and questioning your choices? Then we will never reach anything! I am very curious to see where all of this will lead us as SC-Community and as Gaming Communities worldwide... | ||
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AlexGano
28 Posts
I come from one of these countries and have been used to pointless offensive words from English communities. That's funny, especially when seeing people show their hates to some news filtered by their countries' medias. But the most important things is, your hate changes nothing here. Some may believe resistance makes us all ears, the truth is we will never hear until you become friendly. Maybe coming to these countries and seeing their developments with your own eyes will be a good start. Then you can make your judgement supported by more solid things. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25014 Posts
On May 16 2024 17:38 AlexGano wrote: I'm just curious that how many of you have been to Russia, China, Saudi or other countries from a world you are not familiar with. People are only willing to believing things that they wanna believe. Labelling a country is definitely an easier way to treat this world, right? I come from one of these countries and have been used to pointless offensive words from English communities. That's funny, especially when seeing people show their hates to some news filtered by their countries' medias. But the most important things is, your hate changes nothing here. Some may believe resistance makes us all ears, the truth is we will never hear until you become friendly. Maybe coming to these countries and seeing their developments with your own eyes will be a good start. Then you can make your judgement supported by more solid things. Which one? | ||
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Lambertus
South Africa969 Posts
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Poopi
France12786 Posts
On May 16 2024 17:38 AlexGano wrote: I'm just curious that how many of you have been to Russia, China, Saudi or other countries from a world you are not familiar with. People are only willing to believing things that they wanna believe. Labelling a country is definitely an easier way to treat this world, right? I come from one of these countries and have been used to pointless offensive words from English communities. That's funny, especially when seeing people show their hates to some news filtered by their countries' medias. But the most important things is, your hate changes nothing here. Some may believe resistance makes us all ears, the truth is we will never hear until you become friendly. Maybe coming to these countries and seeing their developments with your own eyes will be a good start. Then you can make your judgement supported by more solid things. Well those are big countries, following your reasoning, have you been to all places in your country so you have a perfectly clear idea about what is going on? Medias are biased but not online western medias vs eastern countries, even in a single country there are medias with different biases. I don't think people on tl.net are hateful towards a country in particular, they are rather concerned about the safety of minorities in certain countries, which is a vastly different thing. And what are "English" communities? I am not English for instance, I am French, and we just speak English on tl.net because that's the language that established itself as the international one over the centuries through UK / USA. But the tl.net community is comprised of starcraft fans from many different countries. It is a Starcraft (both BW+SC2) community forum. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
I'm just curious that how many of you have been to Russia, Saudi Pretty hard when you get arrested/tortured/killed for just showing up while having the wrong characteristics. The Russian government is in the middle of killing a bunch of my friends right now because they want more land, so nah we shouldn't hold our tournaments in Moscow either. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25014 Posts
On May 16 2024 20:34 Poopi wrote: Well those are big countries, following your reasoning, have you been to all places in your country so you have a perfectly clear idea about what is going on? Medias are biased but not online western medias vs eastern countries, even in a single country there are medias with different biases. I don't think people on tl.net are hateful towards a country in particular, they are rather concerned about the safety of minorities in certain countries, which is a vastly different thing. And what are "English" communities? I am not English for instance, I am French, and we just speak English on tl.net because that's the language that established itself as the international one over the centuries through UK / USA. But the tl.net community is comprised of starcraft fans from many different countries. It is a Starcraft (both BW+SC2) community forum. The Ukrainian/Russian war thread may be occasionally cantankerous, but generally TLers are perfectly civil with our Russian brothers and sisters, many of whom are community staples who’ve been here longer and done more for the scene than I have certainly. Our Chinese contingent is quite small, but warmly received too. They’ve their own forums as the language gap is quite large/other factors. Generally TL is pretty damn good at not damning people by the actions of their governments, and respectful of some cultural divergence while maintaining certain lines in the sand. Less high up in my list of concerns tbh, but somewhat worth mentioning IMO. There hasn’t been, to my knowledge any major Arab scene in this and most other eSport titles that I’m aware of, certainly not one that interacts much with places like this. Which is yet another reason why having SC2’s showpiece event in Saudi Arabia is a kick in the teeth. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16674 Posts
On May 11 2024 10:42 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: Where we are not dependent is in the entertainment industry. This is a sector where we, as consumers, can try to make ethical choices. I don't think the discussion about this is meaningless. +1, good points. On May 17 2024 05:06 WombaT wrote:Which is yet another reason why having SC2’s showpiece event in Saudi Arabia is a kick in the teeth. On May 16 2024 16:50 Lambertus wrote: Me sitting on my desktop typing away on my chinese keyboard already disqualifies me of being part of a bigger conversation or judging and questioning your choices? Then we will never reach anything! I am very curious to see where all of this will lead us as SC-Community and as Gaming Communities worldwide... the sky ain't falling guys. It is not going to lead any where because this is what the video game industry has been all about since it started in the 1970s. Turning a blind eye to this Saudi tourney does not surprise me in the least. The video game industry is really shadey. The industry attracts shadey people and also encourages illegal//unethical behaviours of people and companies who normally would not behave so poorly. + Show Spoiler + Mattel WAS a generally on-the-level solid company with a solid track record until 1979. Mattel super fucked over their video game customers in their "Mattel Electronics" division in the early 1980s and late 1970s. Maple Story scams for over a decade and receives a tiny fine. www.youtube.com Because of the omnipresence of social media apps today we hear a lot about all the scams in which video game companies are involved. However, based on the research I've done the industry was just as bad in the 70s, 80s, 90s as it is today. Even the pinball machine industry proceeding the video games were nefarious and shadey. The Pinball Machine makers got slapped down for including gambling elements in their Pinball Games... and they ignored government demands and just kept on rolling. 50 years later.. .EA does the same damn thing. https://www.gamesindustry.biz/ea-fined-10m-over-loot-boxes-as-dutch-court-sides-with-gambling-authority EA was told to remove or alter their loot box mechanics. They refused and decided to take it all the way to a judge's decision. EA said their loot boxes were like "Kinder Eggs". LOL. EA is just pure scum. Always have been... always will be. Nintendo does the same thing. When they get a decision by a court... even a supreme court... they just keep on rolling and act like no government authority can tell them what to do. Let's not pretend this Saudi Event is some "new low" for the video game industry. This is just another day in the video game industry dudes... nothing to see here... Blizzard could easily stop this tourney if they wanted to do so. I suspect they'll just ignore the whole thing. | ||
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AlexGano
28 Posts
On May 16 2024 20:34 Poopi wrote: Well those are big countries, following your reasoning, have you been to all places in your country so you have a perfectly clear idea about what is going on? Medias are biased but not online western medias vs eastern countries, even in a single country there are medias with different biases. I don't think people on tl.net are hateful towards a country in particular, they are rather concerned about the safety of minorities in certain countries, which is a vastly different thing. And what are "English" communities? I am not English for instance, I am French, and we just speak English on tl.net because that's the language that established itself as the international one over the centuries through UK / USA. But the tl.net community is comprised of starcraft fans from many different countries. It is a Starcraft (both BW+SC2) community forum. Unfortunately the bias is actually more like western vs eastern when the term “eastern” refers to Russia and China. And of course I know that most of people here don't actually hold hate to these countries they have never been to. But still unfortunately, most of people from my country believe western world hates them. When today we hear one fellow is killed in US and tomorrow another one is robbed, more bad news like these keeps coming. That's how biased media actually works. And at the same time western media are doing similar things to you. Back to Saudi problem, my answer is resistance can't change anything, because the resistance can only leave a impression that you are hating them. Only when you are ready to communicate friendly, then they are ready to hear and change. That may be done in several generations, slowly and painfully, but it will be done. | ||
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AlexGano
28 Posts
On May 16 2024 23:27 Cyro wrote: Pretty hard when you get arrested/tortured/killed for just showing up while having the wrong characteristics. The Russian government is in the middle of killing a bunch of my friends right now because they want more land, so nah we shouldn't hold our tournaments in Moscow either. Let me quote the answer I posted before "I don't want to talk a lot about Russia-Ukraine problem but NATO is never a friendly military organization to Russia. Let Ukraine get in NATO is just putting Russia under knife of US." | ||
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AlexGano
28 Posts
On May 16 2024 19:34 Lambertus wrote: Hi Alex, my questions, my critisism and my judgements are not based on hate. That is a very strong word that I would not use. It makes me sad that you seem to perceive my and others people statements and thoughts as a hate against your and others cultures and norms. Sorry if my words hurts you. That's not what I want. And you can read my answer at #46. Thanks. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7103 Posts
On May 17 2024 10:04 AlexGano wrote: Let me quote the answer I posted before "I don't want to talk a lot about Russia-Ukraine problem but NATO is never a friendly military organization to Russia. Let Ukraine get in NATO is just putting Russia under knife of US." Ukraine was not going to join NATO. Russia decided to invade anyway and gained 1400km of border with NATO due to Finland and Sweden joining. Nothing forced Russia to invade with genocidal intentions. Dont whitewash this shit. | ||
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Lambertus
South Africa969 Posts
On May 17 2024 10:05 AlexGano wrote: Sorry if my words hurts you. That's not what I want. And you can read my answer at #46. Thanks. Thank you for your answer! | ||
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Lambertus
South Africa969 Posts
On May 17 2024 08:02 JimmyJRaynor wrote: +1, good points. the sky ain't falling guys. It is not going to lead any where because this is what the video game industry has been all about since it started in the 1970s. Turning a blind eye to this Saudi tourney does not surprise me in the least. The video game industry is really shadey. The industry attracts shadey people and also encourages illegal//unethical behaviours of people and companies who normally would not behave so poorly. + Show Spoiler + Mattel WAS a generally on-the-level solid company with a solid track record until 1979. Mattel super fucked over their video game customers in their "Mattel Electronics" division in the early 1980s and late 1970s. Maple Story scams for over a decade and receives a tiny fine. www.youtube.com Because of the omnipresence of social media apps today we hear a lot about all the scams in which video game companies are involved. However, based on the research I've done the industry was just as bad in the 70s, 80s, 90s as it is today. Even the pinball machine industry proceeding the video games were nefarious and shadey. The Pinball Machine makers got slapped down for including gambling elements in their Pinball Games... and they ignored government demands and just kept on rolling. 50 years later.. .EA does the same damn thing. https://www.gamesindustry.biz/ea-fined-10m-over-loot-boxes-as-dutch-court-sides-with-gambling-authority EA was told to remove or alter their loot box mechanics. They refused and decided to take it all the way to a judge's decision. EA said their loot boxes were like "Kinder Eggs". LOL. EA is just pure scum. Always have been... always will be. Nintendo does the same thing. When they get a decision by a court... even a supreme court... they just keep on rolling and act like no government authority can tell them what to do. Let's not pretend this Saudi Event is some "new low" for the video game industry. This is just another day in the video game industry dudes... nothing to see here... Blizzard could easily stop this tourney if they wanted to do so. I suspect they'll just ignore the whole thing. I agree that corporate greed and questionable values were and are always part of capitalism and so from the gaming industry! My statement was intended as a more general question - stuff like this (sports washing) is supposed to change peoples perceptions in the long term, that was what I was referring to And as we can see, I might very well be successful in some cases. On the other hand I feel like FIFA fucked up and will sooner or later reap the rewards. The football European Championship is one thing, but the plans for the World Cup are just hideous! At least in my circles I know a lot of people who actually already stopped watching football, and for Germans that means a lot :-D | ||
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AlexGano
28 Posts
On May 17 2024 14:50 Luolis wrote: Ukraine was not going to join NATO. Russia decided to invade anyway and gained 1400km of border with NATO due to Finland and Sweden joining. Nothing forced Russia to invade with genocidal intentions. Dont whitewash this shit. "not going to join NATO" lmao, you can even read related information from wiki. Bro you need to learn more about international news before expressing your anger. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7103 Posts
On May 17 2024 17:05 AlexGano wrote: "not going to join NATO" lmao, you can even read related information from wiki. Bro you need to learn more about international news before expressing your anger. NATO was not going to accept Ukraine into it lmaoooo. And as i said, all Putin managed to do with this invasion was to gain 1400km of border with NATO and the baltic sea under NATO control, while managing to lose a shitton of soldiers and equipment in his 2 day war that has lasted over 2 years now. You are a disgrace. | ||
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AlexGano
28 Posts
On May 17 2024 17:27 Luolis wrote: NATO was not going to accept Ukraine into it lmaoooo. And as i said, all Putin managed to do with this invasion was to gain 1400km of border with NATO and the baltic sea under NATO control, while managing to lose a shitton of soldiers and equipment in his 2 day war that has lasted over 2 years now. You are a disgrace. You can call me anything if this makes you feel better. NATO’s hesitation about Ukraine's membership is actually a worry about being totally involved in war against Russia. But their military support has proven their attitudes. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7103 Posts
On May 17 2024 18:38 AlexGano wrote: You can call me anything if this makes you feel better. NATO’s hesitation about Ukraine's membership is actually a worry about being totally involved in war against Russia. But their military support has proven their attitudes. Of course we would support a country that is being invaded by a genocidal country. The only shame is that we haven't supported them more. | ||
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Branch.AUT
Austria853 Posts
Oh yah, saudi arabian officials torture and killing people whose opinion dont match the official position. I swear, every time saudi arabia comes into focus on this site, some clown account turns up to completely derail the topic. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
On May 17 2024 18:57 Branch.AUT wrote: Suddenly we are discussing nato, ukraine and russia. What was this thread about again? Oh yah, saudi arabian officials torture and killing people whose opinion dont match the official position. I swear, every time saudi arabia comes into focus on this site, some clown account turns up to completely derail the topic. Almost like they're getting paid blood money to do it | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16674 Posts
On May 17 2024 15:51 Lambertus wrote: I agree that corporate greed and questionable values were and are always part of capitalism and so from the gaming industry! My statement was intended as a more general question - stuff like this (sports washing) is supposed to change peoples perceptions in the long term, that was what I was referring to And as we can see, I might very well be successful in some cases. On the other hand I feel like FIFA fucked up and will sooner or later reap the rewards. The football European Championship is one thing, but the plans for the World Cup are just hideous! At least in my circles I know a lot of people who actually already stopped watching football, and for Germans that means a lot :-DPart of it is a capitalist thing. Part of it is the very nature of the "video game playing" activity. The industry promises thrill rushes for people with spare time. THe video game industry and its supporting structures tries to get you playing games longer and longer because they know it means you'll spend more and more money. Its not like this industry is guilding teachers how to better teach children. The industry is not guiding gardeners how to get better at growing plants. "Game playing" isn't exactly a noble activity. "Video Game Playing" is a bit of a vice. Personally, I enjoy video games in my spare time, However, I do not imagine I am some noble soul for having lots of spare time. The PC Bangs I've been to over the years had a substantial portion of the customer base that were angry self absorbed addicts of some form. Based on the research I've done Pinball Halls and Video Game arcades of the 70s and 80s were really scummy places filled with shadey characters and plenty of violence. We see this manifested today with game franchise community managers under constant threat. There is a War going on right now between the CMs and the most avid players of their games. The corporations make massive lofty promises with the most amazing nirvana like game experiences coming in the future. Just give them lots of money. They need 8 years to make a game. So we need lots and lots of money... billions. Some players buy into the hype and spend their money believing these promises are real. The game fails to meet up to the lofty, extravagent promises the marketing people make. Some players get super angry. Rinse and Repeat. The CMs are the "Crash Dummies" of these corporations and they are used to deflect incoming fire from the angry player base who feels they were mislead. The justification for this Saudi event is a trascendent life experience for both the competitors and the viewers. It will be the most amazing thing ever... they promise. Look at all this amazing prize money! It is now somehow self evident that this event is amazing for everyone because it has a lot of money in it. To THat I Say This: " It has been said that money is the root of all evil. Has any one ever asked, `what is the root of money?` " | ||
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Branch.AUT
Austria853 Posts
On May 17 2024 20:05 Cyro wrote: Almost like they're getting paid blood money to do it I mean, I wouldn't jump to conclusions right here. Just when we have our very own JimmyJ dragging his 1970s video game shtick around the very same thread. With him, I'm confident it's not blood money. The other guy though... smells a lot like distraction-gambit-rage-bait. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16674 Posts
On May 17 2024 20:56 Branch.AUT wrote: I mean, I wouldn't jump to conclusions right here. Just when we have our very own JimmyJ dragging his 1970s video game shtick around the very same thread. With him, I'm confident it's not blood money. it is tied to the nature of the activity of video game playing. so it is woven through the entire history of the industry and even before that with pinball machines. so its not just the 70s. its the 60s, 80s, and 90s and every year leading up to today. it is no big surprise IF blood money happens to be flowing into such a shadey industry. On May 17 2024 18:57 Branch.AUT wrote: Suddenly we are discussing nato, ukraine and russia. What was this thread about again? Oh yah, saudi arabian officials torture and killing people whose opinion dont match the official position. I swear, every time saudi arabia comes into focus on this site, some clown account turns up to completely derail the topic. +1. good points man. | ||
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Branch.AUT
Austria853 Posts
It is my opinion, that decapitating a person, for how they are born, or what they believe in is wrong. And therefore shouldn't be rewarded with tourism money. If pro-gamers like Kelazhur want to cooperte with people who carry these executions, they are free to do so. I on't be cheering for it. And I will keep bringing up this situation, because I think it is imporant that the people watching don't get to hide behind ignorance. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25014 Posts
On May 17 2024 15:51 Lambertus wrote: I agree that corporate greed and questionable values were and are always part of capitalism and so from the gaming industry! My statement was intended as a more general question - stuff like this (sports washing) is supposed to change peoples perceptions in the long term, that was what I was referring to And as we can see, I might very well be successful in some cases. On the other hand I feel like FIFA fucked up and will sooner or later reap the rewards. The football European Championship is one thing, but the plans for the World Cup are just hideous! At least in my circles I know a lot of people who actually already stopped watching football, and for Germans that means a lot :-DThey’re absolutely ridiculous and FIFA can fuck right off, pardon my French Reverend! Although interesting to know we have clergy amongst Liquidians Part of the fun of the World Cup feast of football is taking it to new cultures and around the globe. But two such tournaments in the period of my life I’m old enough/have funds enough to actually travel are in the Gulf, where aside from other issues, some fans are not going to be welcome. Sportswashing can actually backfire, I’d argue it’s not all that effective in what it aims to do. Football fans in England and France, bar supporters of particular clubs don’t look any more warmly on Abu Dhabi or Qatar for wrecking the competitive balance of their top leagues. More people became aware of not just social issues, but worker conditions when Qatar invited the microscope due to hosting the World Cup and thousands of migrant workers dying to construct World Cup stadiums exposed generally horrendous conditions. With the Saudi money involvement in eSports I’m certainly not a fan. Not just ethically, but I don’t think there’s any evidence of much interest in the scene outside of vanity. Gamer’s 8 was played with lag, they funded fun but pointless show matches and haven’t put any money into tournaments such as GSL. Who’s travelling to Saudi Arabia, and half of the Katowice broadcast was hyping up spots for this Saudi thing. Katowice is Katowice, a WC equivalent and a jewel in our crown for years, why minimise it as some qualifier for another tourney? I’d still have my ethical concerns if some Crown Prince was a massive StarCraft fan, but given how the money has been implemented I see little evidence of that and a lot for Saudi sportswashing in action. Meanwhile back to FIFA, England is, much as we have our rivalry and enjoy ribbing our rather arrogant neighbours, absolutely the best potential World Cup host going and will be approaching a century since its hosted by the time this cycle is over. It’s a football mad nation, it’s got sufficient infrastructure, it’s basically the only country in the world that has sizeable professional football going down 3/4 divisions, so stadia is not a problem. FIFA have made the World Cup so bloated that no South American country minus Brazil can actually host it solo anymore, never mind much of Africa, Asia and the Arab world. Understandably, and one thing I can say in FIFA’s favour is they have spread it around, you can’t just have it in Europe or the US every time. But that leaves precious little candidates, except Gulf States are perfectly happy spaffing billions on white elephant infrastructure because they’re not bound by the same kinds of concerns many other nations will have. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25014 Posts
On May 17 2024 21:23 Branch.AUT wrote: In 2022 Saudi Arabia executed 196 people, by decapitation, for crimes like "abandoning islam", "homosexuality" or "blasphemy" - not believing in the one true god. It is my opinion, that decapitating a person, for how they are born, or what they believe in is wrong. And therefore shouldn't be rewarded with tourism money. If pro-gamers like Kelazhur want to cooperte with people who carry these executions, they are free to do so. I on't be cheering for it. And I will keep bringing up this situation, because I think it is imporant that the people watching don't get to hide behind ignorance. The issue with cultural relativism absolutely comes up when sportswashing enterprises starts nicking Western/global events There are plenty of non-Muslims, LGBTQ folks amongst us, so you’re just excluding people from events and scenes they were perfectly welcome in before. Or anyone that doesn’t want to enable these kind of moves for various moral reasons. I’m hearing so little from casters and players on the topic at this stage I can only assume there’s some kind of contractual obligation not to speak on it. The alternative is one of profound disappointment that everyone in a scene I cherish seemingly have no qualms with this state of affairs whatsoever? Are other eSports scenes similarly quiet? I don’t really follow any other games outside this genre | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16674 Posts
On May 17 2024 23:27 WombaT wrote: I’m hearing so little from casters and players on the topic at this stage I can only assume there’s some kind of contractual obligation not to speak on it. The alternative is one of profound disappointment that everyone in a scene I cherish seemingly have no qualms with this state of affairs whatsoever? Are other eSports scenes similarly quiet? I don’t really follow any other games outside this genre the paid "Stream Teams" of other video game franchises use "non disparagement" clauses to silence the top community figures. The Borderlands franchise pays its top guys a little bit of cash and gets them to sign on the dotted line. You will never hear one of these Borderlands "community figure heads" discuss how Pitchford chews through his very top employees like bubble gum. In addition, the community figureheads will never discuss the "thumb drive incident". Now, neither of these things could be a horrific crime against humanity. However, the top community people won't talk about it and if you bring up "What happened to Paul Sage.. that guy was awesome" ... you'll get crushed. I pretty much guarantee you the two topics I've brought up have been classified as breaking the non-disparagement agreement. You can talk about how some gun doesn't fire fast enough... or some end Boss has an immunity phase that is too long. But, they never get into the ugly stuff. “The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum....” , Noam Chomsky. | ||
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Branch.AUT
Austria853 Posts
On May 17 2024 23:27 WombaT wrote: The issue with cultural relativism absolutely comes up when sportswashing enterprises starts nicking Western/global events There are plenty of non-Muslims, LGBTQ folks amongst us, so you’re just excluding people from events and scenes they were perfectly welcome in before. Or anyone that doesn’t want to enable these kind of moves for various moral reasons. I’m hearing so little from casters and players on the topic at this stage I can only assume there’s some kind of contractual obligation not to speak on it. The alternative is one of profound disappointment that everyone in a scene I cherish seemingly have no qualms with this state of affairs whatsoever? Are other eSports scenes similarly quiet? I don’t really follow any other games outside this genre While I would welcome a public figure making a strong ethical statement, I don't expect to hear one. Ever. It is much much harder to permanently burn the bridge to the money land, if you depend on the income. Speaking out publicly against unethical treatment of minorities id akin to career suicide. I don't object to casters, palyers, production crews, taking the money. But be honest with yourself, and be honeat with the viewers about it. Admit to having the morals of a damp rag, and move on. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16674 Posts
On May 18 2024 00:24 Branch.AUT wrote: While I would welcome a public figure making a strong ethical statement, I don't expect to hear one. Ever. It is much much harder to permanently burn the bridge to the money land, if you depend on the income. Speaking out publicly against unethical treatment of minorities id akin to career suicide. I don't object to casters, palyers, production crews, taking the money. But be honest with yourself, and be honeat with the viewers about it. Admit to having the morals of a damp rag, and move on. I do not think it is career suicide any longer. With multiple independent media outlets you can easily talk into your webcam, do you own thing, and make plenty of cash. Decades ago... the elite rich had 100% control. That is no longer the case. Candace Owens is probably making more money now than she was working for the Daily Wire. Don Lemon got fired. He did fine. In fact, isn't he back at CNN? In the example I mentioned ... one of the most popular Borderlands streamers has been "excommunicated" by the publisher. They tried to unperson him. It only made him more popular. I'm talking about "MorninAfterKill". | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25014 Posts
On May 18 2024 00:24 Branch.AUT wrote: While I would welcome a public figure making a strong ethical statement, I don't expect to hear one. Ever. It is much much harder to permanently burn the bridge to the money land, if you depend on the income. Speaking out publicly against unethical treatment of minorities id akin to career suicide. I don't object to casters, palyers, production crews, taking the money. But be honest with yourself, and be honeat with the viewers about it. Admit to having the morals of a damp rag, and move on. Football did it with Qatar, other sports have seen folks speak out on similar topics. Granted football and golf are bigger, and most of those figures weren’t directly paid by those states, so there are some pertinent differences. I’m not expecting people to do what I wouldn’t do, it’s tough if jobs are on the line. I’m observing that the absolute absence of this is either linked to some kind of gagging order or at least the implication of negative consequences, or alternatively it’s the entirety of the scene having no misgivings whatsoever. The former strikes me as much more likely and is and of itself something that I have misgivings about. Players were free to, and often did express their issues in various domains with Blizzard or ESL were pulling the strings. Currently it’s crickets, and not just on sportswashing, I mean nobody seemed to even say much that the biggest LAN event of last year was played with considerable ping? With that in mind I think it’s all the more important for fans to have their say too, and hell, maybe do something tangible. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25014 Posts
On May 18 2024 00:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I do not think it is career suicide any longer. With multiple independent media outlets you can easily talk into your webcam, do you own thing, and make plenty of cash. Decades ago... the elite rich had 100% control. That is no longer the case. Candace Owens is probably making more money now than she was working for the Daily Wire. Don Lemon got fired. He did fine. In fact, isn't he back at CNN? In the example I mentioned ... one of the most popular Borderlands streamers has been "excommunicated" by the publisher. They tried to unperson him. It only made him more popular. I'm talking about "MorninAfterKill". It is career suicide if you’re a tournament player in a scene where the main tournament organiser is owned by the Saudi state. Less so if you’re more of a freelance caster character aye, although it may also rather limit your employment prospects if you wanna keep covering this particular game. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16674 Posts
On May 18 2024 03:45 WombaT wrote: It is career suicide if you’re a tournament player in a scene where the main tournament organiser is owned by the Saudi state. Less so if you’re more of a freelance caster character aye, although it may also rather limit your employment prospects if you wanna keep covering this particular game. SC2 has been in decline for 10+ years. If you position yourself to only make money is 1 single very narrow constantly declining way ... that's on you. You've snookered yourself and become prey for the sharks more than happy to eat you. What most people do is diversify. Artosis with Hearthstone, Incontrol with SC2 broadcasting and then after that as a general strategy game expert guy. Day9 got out of pro gaming and into several different things. Catz is making Zerospace. Grubby did 10 different things to make money as he diversified off of SC2.. etc etc etc. If. for example, person XYZ corners himself in such a way that he has to shill for this event... that's on him. He is not some kind of helpless victim. On May 17 2024 21:23 Branch.AUT wrote: In 2022 Saudi Arabia executed 196 people, by decapitation, for crimes like "abandoning islam", "homosexuality" or "blasphemy" - not believing in the one true god. It is my opinion, that decapitating a person, for how they are born, or what they believe in is wrong. And therefore shouldn't be rewarded with tourism money. If pro-gamers like Kelazhur want to cooperte with people who carry these executions, they are free to do so. I on't be cheering for it. And I will keep bringing up this situation, because I think it is imporant that the people watching don't get to hide behind ignorance. good points man. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25014 Posts
On May 18 2024 03:58 JimmyJRaynor wrote: SC2 has been in decline for 10+ years. If you position yourself to only make money is 1 single very narrow constantly declining way ... that's on you. You've snookered yourself and become prey for the sharks more than happy to eat you. What most people do is diversify. Artosis with Hearthstone, Incontrol with SC2 broadcasting and then after that as a general strategy game expert guy. Day9 got out of pro gaming and into several different things. Catz is making Zerospace. Grubby did 10 different things to make money as he diversified off of SC2.. etc etc etc. If. for example, person XYZ corners himself in such a way that he has to shill for this event... that's on him. He is not some kind of helpless victim. good points man. Regardless, that is how their bread is buttered currently Not everyone can pivot to be a media personality, which is effectively what Grubby, Tasteless, Artosis etc are, hell not all SC2 pros can even give a passable interview. If you’re a Serral, Maru, Clem level player you’re likely earning more bank than you’re ever going to again, even when you do transition to a decent regular gig. Its quite a big ask for players to take a hit if nobody else is, not the casters and content creators with more of a diverse source of income, and seemingly not the majority of fans. Much of professional sport doesn’t see people diversify their skillset all that much if they’re at the elite end, they’ve gotta focus on their competitive career for what is a short span, and start to pivot when they’re on the way out. If they don’t commit, they never get to the top end of their chosen field to begin with. I’d imagine many had just planned to make hay for a few years while the sun shined and then thought about next steps anyway, as the scene was gradually declining anyway. Which, incidentally I think it still is anyway, as under Saudi ESL isn’t building anything sustainable and is frontloading a ton of money into one tournament. They dangled the BW carrot last time, not this. I think SC2 is a nod to a prestige, at this stage ‘legacy’ game to give this craic some legitimacy and will be dropped in time. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16674 Posts
On May 18 2024 04:42 WombaT wrote: Regardless, that is how their bread is buttered currently Not everyone can pivot to be a media personality, which is effectively what Grubby, Tasteless, Artosis etc are, hell not all SC2 pros can even give a passable interview. Idra, Thorzain, Huk and CombatEx are not media personalities. They all moved on. Furthermore, you're infantalizing these people. SC2's long decline is not some unforeseeable act of god. I can go on and on and on... hundreds have moved on and/or diversified. And it is the common sense thing to do which is why so many left. SC2 has been declining for 10 years. This is why everyone has been leaving for many years. There are many things to pivot. These are not helpless children. These are full grown adults. If your only source of income is winning SC2 tourneys... that is the person's conscious choice. it is a career path no rational person would advise. Also, I never said working hard is easy. Most adults do this every day though. Most adults moved off of SC2 a super long time ago. Was it hard at the beginning? prolly. Welcome to the adult world. The SC2 pros I dealt with during the CraftCup told me all kinds of stories about the crazy lengths their teams had to go to get them paid their prize money. Prize money often took 5+ months to get paid out. Even though the CraftCup only paid $100... they got the cash the next day. They told me that was very rare and they were thankful for reliable money. So, SC2 Pros know very well what a super high risk business esports is. What does every rational adult do? Every adult minimizes risk. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
129 Posts
Sorry, but the SC2 scene since 2016 and maybe even earlier is as legitimateas the Saudi Arabian football league. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25014 Posts
It doesn’t really matter how sustainable the scene is, Serral’s pulled over a million dollars in prize money alone, never mind salary and sponsorship. Riding that train is absolutely the rational thing for him to do, a year or two isn’t going to massively inhibit him changing industries, and he sure as fuck isn’t going to be earning what he does currently if he did so today. If you’re not quite at the top anymore, very personable and articulate do a Grubby by all means, a man I have immense time for. Or realise your mentality maybe requires something wholly different and do what Idra did. They’re all valid courses of action. Nonetheless it wasn’t the crux of my point anyway, which is expecting players to be the ones to make a stand when they have the most to lose in doing so is unrealistic and probably unfair. I don’t wish to go too far off-topic | ||
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Poopi
France12786 Posts
Like obviously they could make money somewhere else, but maybe they like playing sc2 (especially for as long as it lasts as an esports), and we like watching the top elite players play starcraft 2? "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" is kind of obvious, if they want to play Starcraft 2 competitively in 2024 it's their choice, if we want to watch it's our choice (as was said multiple times, every country in the entire world has probably some blood on their hand one way or another). Expressing concern as a viewer is fine, but expecting pros to speak negatively of their employer is naive at best. I dunno what it's like in Canada, but in France for example, it's explicitly forbidden to talk negatively about your employer, in ANY public context / medium, and you can get fired if you do it (even if it was like on your personal facebook / twitter feed or whatever, or in a street pub) | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
On May 15 2024 21:24 Kelazhur wrote: My guy, why do you keep repeating this? It's not what I said at all. I even started the phrase with "if you're PLAYING in ESL tournaments" when mentioning it's hypocritical to be fine with one but not the other. I don't understand why you're feeling personally attacked when the quote doesn't even apply to you. I'm clearly only talking about players here. Hi Diego, I don't feel personally attacked by your statements. I am disappointed by them. In the interview, StarCraft Historian asks you what you say to people that are critical of the large role that Saudi orgs are playing in the esports scene at the moment. Your response is that this is only the "natural progression" of things and players who are already partaking in Saudi-financed tournaments should not be "hypocritical" by speaking out about it. When I wrote you are being dismissive of people who criticize the sportswashing, this is what I meant. I don't agree with your view active players criticizing the role Saudi orgs have in SC2 at the moment would be hypocritical. On the contrary, I think this would show courage and integrity. | ||
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