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On March 09 2011 01:23 Jampackedeon wrote: I actually see a role for hydras in ZvZ going forward, because they will be taking less damage from infestors and always be in range of roaches even with fungals I can see the meta game shifting to squeezing out as many hydras as possible while still keeping a buffer wall of roaches to soak up fungals and damage. What do y'all think?
Some maps hydras seem like the way to go. A map like Scrap station for example where a roach/hydra player can hold chokes to give his roach/hydra/infestor army superiority over pure roach/infestor. On other maps there's less defender's advantage and more room to move around. In those cases the roach/infestor player can apply lots of pressure and trade armies constantly. Since hydras, until you're close to the pop cap, are less resource efficient it will eventually strain and break the hydra/roach/infestor (or just hydra/roach) player.
Any ZvZ that stalls out or gets going into big armies close to the pop cap will probably see some hydras come out though.
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On March 09 2011 01:24 dark fury wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 01:17 Logo wrote:On March 09 2011 01:17 dark fury wrote: 1. Nydus Worm 2. Overlord Drops
Who said immobility was a problem? It's not about getting them across map. It's about getting them out of the way of things that kill them once they're there. Plus having to use nydus/overlords limits your options in the mid/early game to punish greedy economic plays. If it's something like x-metal and I'm on hydras it's really tough for me to move out and deny a greedy expansion before it goes up. funny, i thought a hydra/ling drop in the main was the best avaible way to punish a greedy player
People explain why hydra sucks and you say "make nydus" or "make drop". What this have to do with hydra itself man?
Or you just trolling?
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On March 09 2011 01:14 goiflin wrote: Two marines also have more HP than a hydralisk. They also move quicker. They also cost the same supply.
Unless the information in the wiki is incorrect, you are wrong.
Marine movement speed without stim is the same as hydra off-creep.
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Make it spit acid again.
And no, Roaches don't spit, they vomit.
It would be a great optional upgrade in HoTS. make it give more damage vs. armored or something.
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On March 09 2011 01:27 Aerakin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 01:14 goiflin wrote: Two marines also have more HP than a hydralisk. They also move quicker. They also cost the same supply. Unless the information in the wiki is incorrect, you are wrong. Marine movement speed without stim is the same as hydra off-creep.
Marines in the battle are always stimmed. Now imagine microing unstimmed marines vs rolling banelings on creep? That's how slow hydra is - impossible to micro or retreat.
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What if Grooved Spines increased range by 2 (so 7 total)?
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On March 09 2011 01:26 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 01:24 dark fury wrote:On March 09 2011 01:17 Logo wrote:On March 09 2011 01:17 dark fury wrote: 1. Nydus Worm 2. Overlord Drops
Who said immobility was a problem? It's not about getting them across map. It's about getting them out of the way of things that kill them once they're there. Plus having to use nydus/overlords limits your options in the mid/early game to punish greedy economic plays. If it's something like x-metal and I'm on hydras it's really tough for me to move out and deny a greedy expansion before it goes up. funny, i thought a hydra/ling drop in the main was the best avaible way to punish a greedy player People explain why hydra sucks and you say "make nydus" or "make drop". What this have to do with hydra itself man? Or you just trolling? Hydras dont suck. I wanna see you play protoss and deal with a hydra/ling drop before you have colossus up (you can do that if you time it right)
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On March 09 2011 01:24 dark fury wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 01:17 Logo wrote:On March 09 2011 01:17 dark fury wrote: 1. Nydus Worm 2. Overlord Drops
Who said immobility was a problem? It's not about getting them across map. It's about getting them out of the way of things that kill them once they're there. Plus having to use nydus/overlords limits your options in the mid/early game to punish greedy economic plays. If it's something like x-metal and I'm on hydras it's really tough for me to move out and deny a greedy expansion before it goes up. funny, i thought a hydra/ling drop in the main was the best avaible way to punish a greedy player
If you gear up for it from the start it's a way to bust a player who does something greedy at the start, but that's not really what I meant and should have been more clear.
If my Protoss opponent grabs an early 3rd base off 3 gate-expand it's hard to punish that with drop. Either I invest in drop early before he plays greedy and risk being weaker to some timing pushes or early colossi or I don't have drop on hand to respond to his play. If I move out with my hydralisks cross map then I risk a counter attack or him having appropriate defenses up in time especially since hydras off creep are really vulnerable to force field splits.
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On March 09 2011 01:35 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 01:24 dark fury wrote:On March 09 2011 01:17 Logo wrote:On March 09 2011 01:17 dark fury wrote: 1. Nydus Worm 2. Overlord Drops
Who said immobility was a problem? It's not about getting them across map. It's about getting them out of the way of things that kill them once they're there. Plus having to use nydus/overlords limits your options in the mid/early game to punish greedy economic plays. If it's something like x-metal and I'm on hydras it's really tough for me to move out and deny a greedy expansion before it goes up. funny, i thought a hydra/ling drop in the main was the best avaible way to punish a greedy player If you gear up for it from the start it's a way to bust a player who does something greedy at the start, but that's not really what I meant and should have been more clear. If my Protoss opponent grabs an early 3rd base off 3 gate-expand it's hard to punish that with drop. Either I invest in drop early before he plays greedy and risk being weaker to some timing pushes or early colossi or I don't have drop on hand to respond to his play. If I move out with my hydralisks cross map then I risk a counter attack or him having appropriate defenses up in time especially since hydras off creep are really vulnerable to force field splits.
drop hydras in the main, attack then 3rd base with lings. guaranteed damage
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I don't think hydras necessarily suck. Colossi just massacre them so they make hydras look bad.
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On March 09 2011 01:38 dark fury wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 01:35 Logo wrote:On March 09 2011 01:24 dark fury wrote:On March 09 2011 01:17 Logo wrote:On March 09 2011 01:17 dark fury wrote: 1. Nydus Worm 2. Overlord Drops
Who said immobility was a problem? It's not about getting them across map. It's about getting them out of the way of things that kill them once they're there. Plus having to use nydus/overlords limits your options in the mid/early game to punish greedy economic plays. If it's something like x-metal and I'm on hydras it's really tough for me to move out and deny a greedy expansion before it goes up. funny, i thought a hydra/ling drop in the main was the best avaible way to punish a greedy player If you gear up for it from the start it's a way to bust a player who does something greedy at the start, but that's not really what I meant and should have been more clear. If my Protoss opponent grabs an early 3rd base off 3 gate-expand it's hard to punish that with drop. Either I invest in drop early before he plays greedy and risk being weaker to some timing pushes or early colossi or I don't have drop on hand to respond to his play. If I move out with my hydralisks cross map then I risk a counter attack or him having appropriate defenses up in time especially since hydras off creep are really vulnerable to force field splits. drop hydras in the main, attack then 3rd base with lings. guaranteed damage
That's.. that's not even a response to what I wrote. Nor is it really accurate. You also don't even really have a reason why dropping roaches + attacking the 3rd with lings wouldn't work the same way do you?
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On March 09 2011 01:38 dark fury wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 01:35 Logo wrote:On March 09 2011 01:24 dark fury wrote:On March 09 2011 01:17 Logo wrote:On March 09 2011 01:17 dark fury wrote: 1. Nydus Worm 2. Overlord Drops
Who said immobility was a problem? It's not about getting them across map. It's about getting them out of the way of things that kill them once they're there. Plus having to use nydus/overlords limits your options in the mid/early game to punish greedy economic plays. If it's something like x-metal and I'm on hydras it's really tough for me to move out and deny a greedy expansion before it goes up. funny, i thought a hydra/ling drop in the main was the best avaible way to punish a greedy player If you gear up for it from the start it's a way to bust a player who does something greedy at the start, but that's not really what I meant and should have been more clear. If my Protoss opponent grabs an early 3rd base off 3 gate-expand it's hard to punish that with drop. Either I invest in drop early before he plays greedy and risk being weaker to some timing pushes or early colossi or I don't have drop on hand to respond to his play. If I move out with my hydralisks cross map then I risk a counter attack or him having appropriate defenses up in time especially since hydras off creep are really vulnerable to force field splits. drop hydras in the main, attack then 3rd base with lings. guaranteed damage
Protoss uses sentries at the 3rd, colossi's in the main. Guaranteed resource dump. You might get a pylon, though.
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There's nothing wrong with Hydras.
6 range, both ground/air and great DPS. And they're fast on creep (spread the creep!!).
Also, they work really well with Roaches. Roach/Hydra army is much more "healthly" than just Roaches, because they don't hit air and can't hit everything because of range 4.
In ZvP, If something is to be changed, should be Colossus.
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On March 09 2011 01:42 Volka wrote: There's nothing wrong with Hydras.
6 range, both ground/air and great DPS. And they're fast on creep (spread the creep!!).
Also, they work really well with Roaches. Roach/Hydra army is much more "healthly" than just Roaches, because they don't hit air and can't hit everything because of range 4.
In ZvP, If something is to be changed, should be Colossus.
The roach range really isn't all that limiting in many situations. Attacking into a choke is a bad idea regardless of if it's pure roach or roach hydra as either way you need a big fat arc (especially because of FFs). So usually you can get your roaches all within range pretty easily. Air is situational as well and really hydras seems to be the wrong response to air pressure ZvP as it frees the P to go stalker/colossi/vr which crushes an army that's using hydras for anti-air.
The unmentioned advantage of roaches too is their more readily reusable because of burrow regen. Having 10 roaches go from 1/2 hp to full hp after a battle is a huge savings (you've essentially regenerated 375/125 resources worth of hp).
Most of the time I make hydras it's because I feel like I have to to be able to dent a big gateway ball, not necessarily because I want to be making hydras.
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Hydras rape the core 3 gateway units, every stargate unit and 3/4 robotics facility units (sure war prisms and observers arent attacking units, but access to hydras allows you to shutdown both drops and obs scouting). Colossus and High Templar are cost effective against hydras, both of which have a massive gas cost associated with them. So buffing hydras is the obvious solution right?
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Personally I think the hydra is too good at what it's good at right now... but terrible at dealing with it's "counters". So games look like they are playing cat and mouse with various units.
I find this somewhat cool since it puts alot of skill involved in properly managing your hydras... but at the same time, threads like these make me think that some zerg players would rather have some Stalker like unit that isn't awesome against anything, but decent against everything.
Not sure what really is better... I kinda hate the whole Switch roaches/hydra ides though.
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On March 09 2011 01:51 MarKeD wrote: Hydras rape the core 3 gateway units, every stargate unit and 3/4 robotics facility units (sure war prisms and observers arent attacking units, but access to hydras allows you to shutdown both drops and obs scouting). Colossus and High Templar are cost effective against hydras, both of which have a massive gas cost associated with them. So buffing hydras is the obvious solution right?
psssst....
Hydras have a massive gas cost. A colossi that hits 3 units/attack is doing about the same dps/gas as a hydralisk (58dps for colossi vs 54dps for 4 hydras, but the hydras are more affected by armor) and hitting 4+ targets it blows the hydras out of the water. The colossi also has better hp/gas cost and superior range. So for dps purposes both units are very gas intensive.
@Furycrab if the hydra was like the marine where you could micro it and had to micro it to overcome its hard counters then it'd be a pretty good game dynamic. Right now with their slow speed and heavy cost it doesn't seem really feasible to play like that though. The game may evolve to that point so I'm not really asking for a hydra buff at the moment, but whatever.
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I would love to see the oldschool hydras coming back.
That is, 1 food, same cost as the roach, with speed upgrade, and 5 damage + 5 to armored or something along those lines...
But i hardly see a huge change like this coming.
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I think a lot of people are getting too caught up in the Stats of the Hydra (DPS/Move Speed) instead of looking at the point of the OP (at least as I understood it) which is that Hydras don't currently fit well into any viable Zerg army composition. There is always a better choice and the better choice usually ends up being cheaper/faster to produce AND usually works better in a large army engagement against the typical large armies fielded by your opponent.
IMO a change to the base Hydra stats would cause too many balance problems to arise; however I think a researchable upgrade for the Hydra OR another Zerg unit that allows them to have better synergy when mixed in with the usual Zerg army composition would open up some doors for new styles of Zerg play. And Im pretty sure EVERYONE on this forum wants to see something new from Zerg players as a whole before Heart of the Swarm is released.
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I wish they were faster, even with less dps. Zerg need to be fast, slow high dps unit don't fit well into the playstyle.
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