Some tests comparing the hydra to the marine and stalker(for the most part) since they're all all-purpose ranged units, keep in mind the hydra is the only one that is tier 2. Upgrades are 0/0 in all examples. Couldnt manage to make this test happen in a wide open area but it still has some interesting results.
For the record I am of the mindsset that it is unrealistic to expect a zerg to always battle on creep when on the offensive. I also like the idea of switching the roach and hydra on the tech tree and balancing accordingly mainly becuase I want the lurker back in HOTS and at lair tech but also becuase this gives you access to 5 range vs ground and air before lair. my only concern with doing this change is banelings in zvz but I think its worth testing (PTR maybe?)
If the hydra is to remain lair tech, at 100/50 its only 50minerals away from matching the cost of 2 BW hydras, so this also would require some testing but I would rather pay 150/50 for hydras with 160hp.
i think blizzard probably will address this and some other units. i think that hydras aren't completely broke like reapers.
moon used them very effectively in zvp. i have a feeling more range? more armor? blizzard is slow but they seem to address certain things and i think lack of hydra usage shouldb e one of those issues.
If players would start using nydus more the movement disability hydras have would be reduced greatly. Remember crackling drops in BW? Hydra worms can be used to similar effect. Hydras are still useful as anti air as well, although zerg has other units to fill this role. I think having just a few hydras mixed into an army have great benefits even if its just 5 or 10 instead of having 5 or 10 roaches since you'll have a large number to tank anyways.
Some tests comparing the hydra to the marine and stalker(for the most part) since they're all all-purpose ranged units, keep in mind the hydra is the only one that is tier 2. Upgrades are 0/0 in all examples. Couldnt manage to make this test happen in a wide open area but it still has some interesting results.
For the record I am of the mindsset that it is unrealistic to expect a zerg to always battle on creep when on the offensive. I also like the idea of switching the roach and hydra on the tech tree and balancing accordingly mainly becuase I want the lurker back in HOTS and at lair tech but also becuase this gives you access to 5 range vs ground and air before lair. my only concern with doing this change is banelings in zvz but I think its worth testing (PTR maybe?)
If the hydra is to remain lair tech, at 100/50 its only 50minerals away from matching the cost of 2 BW hydras, so this also would require some testing but I would rather pay 150/50 for hydras with 160hp.
Can you give us a summary of your results? How did the hydra fare? (im guessing not so well ^^)
On March 11 2011 13:04 Xyik wrote: If players would start using nydus more the movement disability hydras have would be reduced greatly. Remember crackling drops in BW? Hydra worms can be used to similar effect. Hydras are still useful as anti air as well, although zerg has other units to fill this role. I think having just a few hydras mixed into an army have great benefits even if its just 5 or 10 instead of having 5 or 10 roaches since you'll have a large number to tank anyways.
Do you know how difficult it actually is to pull a nydus off against a good player? It's nearly impossible. Not to mention that assuming you get it on the 1st try, its a 300/300 investment. That's pretty pricey for something that fails more often than not.
I do think Hydras may be most effective as drop units, but again, thats NOT ZERG. Zerg is supposed to mass cheap mobile armies that overrun the opponent. A supposedly core unit which is only really useful as part of drop harass has no place in the Zerg army.
On March 11 2011 13:04 Xyik wrote: If players would start using nydus more the movement disability hydras have would be reduced greatly. Remember crackling drops in BW? Hydra worms can be used to similar effect. Hydras are still useful as anti air as well, although zerg has other units to fill this role. I think having just a few hydras mixed into an army have great benefits even if its just 5 or 10 instead of having 5 or 10 roaches since you'll have a large number to tank anyways.
Nydus worms are a gimmick that are only truly useful in lower leagues. We saw what happened to OGStheWind when he tried to Nydus into Zenith's base. It was a joke. And that's an early, wide open base. If the nydus isn't in by mid game, it's pretty well useless except as maybe a transport to the front line of an opponent who isn't scouting.
On March 11 2011 13:55 Techno wrote: Hydras are underexplored TvZ. I'm not saying that the have a niche there, but they might.
You mention Colossus in your post, and here we have stumbled upon the true problem....
Not with marines on the field. Hydras are extrememly cost ineffective vs. Terran. Consider the lowest common denominator is the unit of supply. Take a look at how the units stack up:
Supply - Marine: 1 supply per unit Hydra: 2 supply per unit
Using supply as the lowest common denominator, we have a standard of comparison and can compare 2 marines vs. 1 Hydra
Production Costs - 2 Marine: 100 minerals 1 Hydralisk: 100 minerals / 50 gas Winner: Marines - no gas investment required
DPS - 2 Marines: 12 1 Hydralisk: 12 Winner: Push - unless you consider the marines fire is split between two seperate units creating an advantage for the Marines
Range: Marines: 5 Hydralisk: 5 (+1 upgrade available for 150/150) Winner: Push until the Hydralisk gets grooved spine upgrade)
Unique Upgrades: Marine: Stimpack (speed upgrade), Combat Shield (+10 HP per marine) Hydralisk: Grooved spines (+1 range attack upgrade) Winner: Marine
Armor- Marine: 0 Hydralisk: 0
What advantage does the hydralisk get for the 50 gas investment vs. the tier 1 terran unit? Certainly not armor, which I'd argue they should at least get +1 armor for that gas investment. As a comparative unit, they cost more, but have less HP than the equal supply of marines.
Putting any money into hydralisks in ZvT in the current state only makes sense if there are no marines on the field because there is no advantage for using this T2 unit in the matchup. It's just a gas sink.
You can't compare units like that. Its like comparing apples and oranges. This post you put alot of time and effort in means absolutely nothing...
Anyways, you forgot hydras can burrow, like it even matters. Also wouldn't it be a disadvantage for the fire to be split between 2 marines because one will get killed and the dps therefore gets cut in half.
I think the main issue is the massive prejudice from BW and the image the hydra has as a 'core' unit. You can not effectively build an army around the hydra in SC2.
It isn't intended to work that way. However the very high hydra DPS means that adding a small number of hydras to an army will greatly benefit that army's DPS due to the hydra's all-round nature without bringing the hydra's greatest weakness (weakness in numbers) into play.
Take the PvZ example where Collossi balls own mass hydras. You normally counter this with ling/roach/corruptor or something similar. Adding a small number (say 6-8) hydras to this mix will provide an overall damage boost without seriously impacting overall performance.
If by some micro feat those 6-8 hydras get focused down in the first few seconds by the colossi you don't loose much. This situation is however unliekly. Much more likely is the collossi will not be firing at such a small number of hydras, being far more occupied with the more immenent roach threat... and then the hydra's weak health but strong DPS comes out...
Haven't really tried this in practice more than once. In that attempt my hydras died as soon as the roaches went down but that was more a macro error than an issue with the concept. I'm fairly sure they did good damage until they died.
I'm almost convinced this can be used vs. T to an equal effect, where you sacrifice some small number of units (muta, roach, ling) in favor of a few hydras that add overall flexibility to your army without focusing on a 'sub par' unit.
You can't compare the two units like apples and oranges, because marines are available from Tier 1, cost only minerals for a race that already has the best mineral income, and after stimpack and combat shields actually have even better stats than were used in that comparison...ohh and they synergize with other units too unlike the hydralisk (medivacs anyone?). On the bright side, at least hydralisks are somewhat less susceptible to splash damage, they only melt in .003 seconds to splash damage instead of .002! and they have 1 more range!
Hopefully the Hydralisk gets a total rework in HOTS. Currently it's just a shittier, vastly less cost efficient marine. At least in BW it was differentiated by its damage type, ability to morph to lurkers,low supply, faster speed, and having support units like defilers. Even if its stats were better and Hydralisks performed better as units, they'd still just a stronger version of a marine that costs gas, which is still also quite boring.
On March 11 2011 13:04 Xyik wrote: If players would start using nydus more the movement disability hydras have would be reduced greatly. Remember crackling drops in BW? Hydra worms can be used to similar effect. Hydras are still useful as anti air as well, although zerg has other units to fill this role. I think having just a few hydras mixed into an army have great benefits even if its just 5 or 10 instead of having 5 or 10 roaches since you'll have a large number to tank anyways.
What I have been doing lately is droping my hydras on siege tanks vT and they kill every single tank within seconds.
On March 08 2011 21:59 Rabiator wrote: Personally I think that too few Zerg actually get the burrow upgrade, which could save a few Hydras from dying with good micro, but which would force an opponent into spending resources to kill them. Sure the Hydras arent as tough as Roaches and dont have their burrowed movement or regenerative skills, but that makes burrow even more important to keep your investment alive.
The Hydra has awesome dps, but only very few Zerg ever bother with any drop play. Suuure the old "oh its so expensive to research" argument will be thrown at me, but Zerg has the fastest growing economy past the early game and resources should not matter that much. Its not like your opponents arent researching useful stuff. Drops are powerful and underused by Zerg players. Change that before whining about how useless your units are.
You don't even play the game, don't even own the game, yet feel you should still be able to speak about how zergs aren't playing their race properly? (I'm not kidding about the he doesn't own the game part)
Please stop posting crap like this since you don't just don't play zerg, you don't play. period.