The Death of the Hydra? - Page 39
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
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Alzadar
Canada5005 Posts
On March 19 2011 17:26 cuppatea wrote: I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered. It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else. Hydra off-creep: 2.25 Zealot: 2.25 Sentry: 2.25 Marine: 2.25 Marauder: 2.25 Colossus: 2.25 Immortal: 2.25 Siege Tank: 2.25 Void Ray: 2.25 Ghost: 2.25 Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast. | ||
PlosionCornu
Italy814 Posts
I feel whereas burrowed banelings have the potential to deal an ungodly ammount of pain to the enemy with a minimal investment, is at it's core a one trick pony strat. The terran player will bring a raven/ will scan next time, if he recovers (more often than not he will in some scrappy way). He will totally negate your burrowed banelings. Literally 0 damage done if a detector is provided. It seems to me a bit too much of a hard counter really. Let's swap that baneling mine field with two or three lurkers. Even if detected they would be able to attack and deal some damage (even if healed by the medic/medivac it's still something DONE), and would be able to escape in time in most cases. What i'm trying to say? That blizzard made the worst decision in removing lurkers thinking that they were overlapping roles with banelings and that detection was available at t3 anyways. Think about it. Banelings are t1, and are more of an aggressive unit that deals istant damage, without the need to burrow and then attack in a straight line. The lurker would've filled the niche of the expansion defender, ACTIVE area denial, and even if detected they would've not totally raped without dealing any damage. Banelings cannot fill that niche very well, in the late game I mean. What in your opinion would slow down a drop harrass by a terran at one of your outlying expos more? 3 banelings in the mineral line or a single burrowed lurker? The difference in effectiveness between detected and undetected baneling mines is the same difference between 0 and 1. A whole lot. The same thing cannot be said for the lurker, which will atleast put up a fight or escape. Sure, sometimes that baneling minefield will win you games (last night's destiny vs brat_ok set 1 was an example) but the next game brat_ok did not make the same mistake, and checked using scans, denying destiny's banelings 100%. To me it looks kinda stupid the concept of having one mechanic that can be either extremely cost effective or not effective at all. I would've loved a more 50/50 approach. I know it's too late to bring our lovely underground friend back, but the lurker morph could've helped the hydra too in some way, at least in PRESENCE in matchups. TL:DR I seriously argue that blizzard's argument for removing lurkers was not that smart, since banelings don't exactly overlap that much if you think about it, and hydras nowhere to be seen in the tvz matchup because of this too (other than speed). Sorry for the terrible formatting and english. | ||
TheButtonmen
Canada1401 Posts
On March 19 2011 18:19 Alzadar wrote: It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else. Hydra off-creep: 2.25 Zealot: 2.25 Sentry: 2.25 Marine: 2.25 Marauder: 2.25 Colossus: 2.25 Immortal: 2.25 Siege Tank: 2.25 Void Ray: 2.25 Ghost: 2.25 Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast. That's the issue, zerg units can't afford to move at the same speed as other races units as that means any time I'm using hydras I can't counterattack, flank or fall back. Zergs live and die based on mobility, no matter how good the hydra is the fact that it kills the mobility of my entire army is too high a price to pay. | ||
Fingulfin
United States110 Posts
On March 19 2011 18:19 Alzadar wrote: It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else. Hydra off-creep: 2.25 Zealot: 2.25 Sentry: 2.25 Marine: 2.25 Marauder: 2.25 Colossus: 2.25 Immortal: 2.25 Siege Tank: 2.25 Void Ray: 2.25 Ghost: 2.25 Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast. Missed a few! Zealot (With Legs): 2.75 (Not to mention charge ability) Stalker: 2.95 Marine (Stimmed): 3.375 (<--equal speed to a hydra on creep) Maruder (stimmed) 3.375 Dark Templar: 2.81 Zerg armies fight by getting in and out of position quickly, retreating when things get sour or when reinforcements arrive. Zerg armies need to be fast simply to be able to zip back and forth between expos to defend. Zerg armies excel at chasing down fleeing units... Well, zerg armies minus any zerg army with a hydralisk in it. | ||
andrewlt
United States7660 Posts
On March 19 2011 18:19 Alzadar wrote: It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else. Hydra off-creep: 2.25 Zealot: 2.25 Sentry: 2.25 Marine: 2.25 Marauder: 2.25 Colossus: 2.25 Immortal: 2.25 Siege Tank: 2.25 Void Ray: 2.25 Ghost: 2.25 Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast. That's the problem. Speed is the theme of zerg. The hydra feels like a unit that belongs to the terran arsenal. | ||
Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
On March 19 2011 18:19 Alzadar wrote: It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else. Hydra off-creep: 2.25 Zealot: 2.25 Sentry: 2.25 Marine: 2.25 Marauder: 2.25 Colossus: 2.25 Immortal: 2.25 Siege Tank: 2.25 Void Ray: 2.25 Ghost: 2.25 Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast. Sigh when people make this argument I just facepalm. The units you're talking about, which make up the core army, like zealots and marines and marauders, have UPGRADES TO MAKE THEM FASTER. That is what we want for a Hydra - a speed upgrade. We don't just want speed for free. We want what every other races core units have available to them. You can't count spellcasters and siege units like tanks and colossi, thats just silly. | ||
xuanzue
Colombia1747 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On March 20 2011 04:53 xuanzue wrote: maybe a change at cost 125/25 vs 100/50 actually can help the hydra. hydra is too gas expensive. You seriously think a hydra is worth 25 more minerals than a Marauder? | ||
CupOfCoffee
Argentina5 Posts
Its just the game is still developing and units like hydras still didnt show their hold potential if ppl figure out how to creep spread better and do more nydus and drop based play well see how that could balance this unit without even a single buff or change | ||
Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On March 20 2011 11:00 CupOfCoffee wrote: I think you shouldnt compare the units of the races. I mean every Unit has another purpose and u cant say like "marauders are more used than hydras so they should cost more" . Its just the game is still developing and units like hydras still didnt show their hold potential if ppl figure out how to creep spread better and do more nydus and drop based play well see how that could balance this unit without even a single buff or change The thing about creep spread is it gets destroyed sooooo easely. You worked for 10minutes on that nice creep and 1scan or a 1observer can destroy it in less then a minute. If it was permanent this could be used as an argument but with the current creep? no. | ||
Soulish
Canada1403 Posts
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Kazang
578 Posts
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manicshock
Canada741 Posts
On March 19 2011 20:59 Subversion wrote: Sigh when people make this argument I just facepalm. The units you're talking about, which make up the core army, like zealots and marines and marauders, have UPGRADES TO MAKE THEM FASTER. That is what we want for a Hydra - a speed upgrade. We don't just want speed for free. We want what every other races core units have available to them. You can't count spellcasters and siege units like tanks and colossi, thats just silly. That's funny. Marines and marauders I have to hurt them in order to make them as fast as hydras when they're just on creep. Stalkers are designed to be the fast ground unit of protoss, and are still only as fast as hydras on creep when they have blink and use it on CD. Zealots are fast (with charge) mostly because they're melee similar to lings just lings are faster. Essentially creep is the upgrade. I think it's a little strange, I'm seeing hydras appear more in ZvT. Lalush vs Sjow, used them to kill vikings. Day9 mentioned a zerg player earlier in the TSL I forget who (possibly MorroW?) who uses them behind ultras. Roach Hydra > Roach. Hydras are also the main reason players go collo/HT. I don't think they're a bad unit. | ||
hopoo
37 Posts
On March 20 2011 11:08 Kazang wrote: SC2 Zealots don't actually move faster with the upgrade they still move at 2.25, unlike in BW where they move faster all the time, they only get the charge ability in SC2. wrong, they get both a speed boost and the charge ability | ||
Kazang
578 Posts
On March 20 2011 11:17 hopoo wrote: wrong, they get both a speed boost and the charge ability Indeed you are right, i was mistaken. | ||
1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
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Noocta
France12574 Posts
On March 19 2011 18:19 Alzadar wrote: It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else. Hydra off-creep: 2.25 Zealot: 2.25 Sentry: 2.25 Marine: 2.25 Marauder: 2.25 Colossus: 2.25 Immortal: 2.25 Siege Tank: 2.25 Void Ray: 2.25 Ghost: 2.25 Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast. They're slow for what they are: ZERG units. Like someone said a lot of pages before, Hydra are like a protoss unit in the wrong race. | ||
Sein
United States1811 Posts
On March 20 2011 11:27 1Eris1 wrote: Honestly I feel the GSL final games really supported even more so why hydras are bad. July could never retreat from an engagement, they weren't even cost effective vs stalkers, etc I remember MC and July's last game in their GSL3 series also largely consisted of mass blink stalkers vs. hydras on Shakuras Plateau. It was a pretty similar game except that the game lasted long enough for MC to get a colossus or two at the end. It is frustrating to try retreating with hydras only to get picked off by chasing stalkers and when you turn them around to engage, stalkers just blink away even on creep. Stalkers used to be considered useless during early beta, but they've really come a long way since then with only a minor damage buff vs light. | ||
jere
United States121 Posts
On March 19 2011 18:42 andrewlt wrote: That's the problem. Speed is the theme of zerg. The hydra feels like a unit that belongs to the terran arsenal. You mean you cant 1A your Zergling Hydra or speed Roach Hydra army. Since units move at different speeds. Kinda like Protoss can not 1A Zealot Stalker, the Stalkers get there too fast and are killed, then the Zealots show up and die. Every Protoss knows that the Zealots need some room infront to move with the Stalker. Fun fact Roach is also 2.25 without speed. | ||
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