why not just let the overlord spew creep while moving, kinda like the infestor slime trail? that way zergs could make a nice small little path with overlords, it would make creep spreading easier for lower level players who lack the multitasking to spread creep into the late game AND keep up with the spread as well. (u wouldn't need to unless you wanted it for vision) and the hydras just stay under the overlords and they get the creeep bonus, that way you could have groups of hydras + 1-2 overlords running around doing awesome flanks on units because of the added speed bonus. creep is what needs a buff, not the hydra.
On March 21 2011 14:00 Attica wrote: This could all be fixed if overlords could drop creep whilst on the move. If that were the case u could just bring overlords with hydras and have a creep road being made as they moved.
OP ? I say yes
The thing is that hydra need to be used with timing pushes or counter to warpgates timing pushes not for a "All around unit" like the roach-stalker or the likes
But the question becomes why bother with the hydras when roaches do the job, are cheaper, and don't have such absurd weaknesses? The unit is just absurdly bad overall.
On March 21 2011 14:14 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: why not just let the overlord spew creep while moving, kinda like the infestor slime trail? that way zergs could make a nice small little path with overlords, it would make creep spreading easier for lower level players who lack the multitasking to spread creep into the late game AND keep up with the spread as well. (u wouldn't need to unless you wanted it for vision) and the hydras just stay under the overlords and they get the creeep bonus, that way you could have groups of hydras + 1-2 overlords running around doing awesome flanks on units because of the added speed bonus. creep is what needs a buff, not the hydra.
I've been wondering about that too. Wouldn't it be a fair trade to have hydras moving at the speed of speed overlords at the risk of losing the overlords if Z decides to retreat?
Also, you would have to invest more than just 1-2 ovies, the trail it would leave would be the size of the initial creep spew that ovies have.
I think it would be fair to add overlords the ability to spew creep on the move. The other zerg units wouldn't really benefit from it since they already move faster than an overlord with speed. The only time would be when they are stationary the creep would spread a bit while they stand and fight. It adds some risk reward for the zerg player as well. While he does gain the advantage of having faster hydras he also risks losing overlords in battles as well as losing them when he has to retreat. I think if blizzard added this change you would also see more overlord drop play enter the scene. As well as some overlord pickup micro during battles.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
the only problem is Zealot gets charge to speed up, Sentry can use FF to slow you down all the way, M+M get stim, Colossus can walk anywhere, Void flies and attacks while moving, and Ghost got that cloak status. So If hydra is off creep, they can not really get away from them. Of course Siege tank and Immortal do not have anything like that, but they are usually not off my there selves anyways.
On March 22 2011 00:37 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: i just dont understand what was wrong with the hydra from broodwar? i mean even its attack looked cooler
If Blizzard had kept the Hydra from BW there would hardly be any point for Roaches as a cheap unit AND the "move faster on creep" stuff is part of the game philosophy now to enable Zerg to cover the map with creep tumors. People complaining about the Hydra are still thinking in BW dimensions or are overwhelmed by the management of creep.
On March 21 2011 14:00 Attica wrote: This could all be fixed if overlords could drop creep whilst on the move. If that were the case u could just bring overlords with hydras and have a creep road being made as they moved.
OP ? I say yes
The thing is that hydra need to be used with timing pushes or counter to warpgates timing pushes not for a "All around unit" like the roach-stalker or the likes
But the question becomes why bother with the hydras when roaches do the job, are cheaper, and don't have such absurd weaknesses? The unit is just absurdly bad overall.
1. Roaches dont hit air units. 2. Hydras still have longer range and this allows a Zerg to stack his attacking units deeper. Even shooting over a Forcefield is possible for Hydras which Roaches cant really do that well.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
the only problem is Zealot gets charge to speed up, Sentry can use FF to slow you down all the way, M+M get stim, Colossus can walk anywhere, Void flies and attacks while moving, and Ghost got that cloak status. So If hydra is off creep, they can not really get away from them. Of course Siege tank and Immortal do not have anything like that, but they are usually not off my there selves anyways.
Sure all the other guys get neat toys and the poor Hydras cant run faster anywhere, right? Just take 2-3 Overlords .... activate their creep spreading ability ... and give them a move command on 2-3 Hydralisks. They will follow your little buggers around and happily spread creep and you dont even have to micro anything (unless the Hydra which was followed is killed). You want the opponent to shoot your Hydras or some "spare Overlords" you built in addition to your supply! It is much cheaper to sacrifice 100 minerals than a bunch of Hydras.
Btw ... boohooo ... if Stimpack runs out the poor Marines cant get away from those Banelings or Zerglings. Just a little sarcasm to show you how the "big complaint" looks from the other side of the fence.
Bout the only time I use hydras anymore is in Desert Strike . AA? Corrupter/queens. DPS vs ground? Roach/baneling.
Sure all the other guys get neat toys and the poor Hydras cant run faster anywhere, right? Just take 2-3 Overlords .... activate their creep spreading ability ... and give them a move command on 2-3 Hydralisks. They will follow your little buggers around and happily spread creep and you dont even have to micro anything (unless the Hydra which was followed is killed). You want the opponent to shoot your Hydras or some "spare Overlords" you built in addition to your supply! It is much cheaper to sacrifice 100 minerals than a bunch of Hydras.
Only problem is OLs only spread creep when stopped. It also takes some time to actually fill the area with creep from OL. Basically whenever you move (ie when you want hydras fast), you are off creep.
On March 22 2011 00:37 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: i just dont understand what was wrong with the hydra from broodwar? i mean even its attack looked cooler
If Blizzard had kept the Hydra from BW there would hardly be any point for Roaches as a cheap unit AND the "move faster on creep" stuff is part of the game philosophy now to enable Zerg to cover the map with creep tumors. People complaining about the Hydra are still thinking in BW dimensions or are overwhelmed by the management of creep.
On March 21 2011 14:00 Attica wrote: This could all be fixed if overlords could drop creep whilst on the move. If that were the case u could just bring overlords with hydras and have a creep road being made as they moved.
OP ? I say yes
The thing is that hydra need to be used with timing pushes or counter to warpgates timing pushes not for a "All around unit" like the roach-stalker or the likes
But the question becomes why bother with the hydras when roaches do the job, are cheaper, and don't have such absurd weaknesses? The unit is just absurdly bad overall.
1. Roaches dont hit air units. 2. Hydras still have longer range and this allows a Zerg to stack his attacking units deeper. Even shooting over a Forcefield is possible for Hydras which Roaches cant really do that well.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
the only problem is Zealot gets charge to speed up, Sentry can use FF to slow you down all the way, M+M get stim, Colossus can walk anywhere, Void flies and attacks while moving, and Ghost got that cloak status. So If hydra is off creep, they can not really get away from them. Of course Siege tank and Immortal do not have anything like that, but they are usually not off my there selves anyways.
Sure all the other guys get neat toys and the poor Hydras cant run faster anywhere, right? Just take 2-3 Overlords .... activate their creep spreading ability ... and give them a move command on 2-3 Hydralisks. They will follow your little buggers around and happily spread creep and you dont even have to micro anything (unless the Hydra which was followed is killed). You want the opponent to shoot your Hydras or some "spare Overlords" you built in addition to your supply! It is much cheaper to sacrifice 100 minerals than a bunch of Hydras.
Btw ... boohooo ... if Stimpack runs out the poor Marines cant get away from those Banelings or Zerglings. Just a little sarcasm to show you how the "big complaint" looks from the other side of the fence.
I know theorycrafting is fun, but seriously, I'm almost 100% certain you've never even TRIED doing that. It's unfeasible and ineffective.
Marines can't outrun banelings without stim Ergo, hydralisks are fast enough.
On March 22 2011 00:37 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: i just dont understand what was wrong with the hydra from broodwar? i mean even its attack looked cooler
If Blizzard had kept the Hydra from BW there would hardly be any point for Roaches as a cheap unit AND the "move faster on creep" stuff is part of the game philosophy now to enable Zerg to cover the map with creep tumors. People complaining about the Hydra are still thinking in BW dimensions or are overwhelmed by the management of creep.
On March 21 2011 15:56 susiederkins wrote:
On March 21 2011 14:09 Yokoblue wrote:
On March 21 2011 14:00 Attica wrote: This could all be fixed if overlords could drop creep whilst on the move. If that were the case u could just bring overlords with hydras and have a creep road being made as they moved.
OP ? I say yes
The thing is that hydra need to be used with timing pushes or counter to warpgates timing pushes not for a "All around unit" like the roach-stalker or the likes
But the question becomes why bother with the hydras when roaches do the job, are cheaper, and don't have such absurd weaknesses? The unit is just absurdly bad overall.
1. Roaches dont hit air units. 2. Hydras still have longer range and this allows a Zerg to stack his attacking units deeper. Even shooting over a Forcefield is possible for Hydras which Roaches cant really do that well.
On March 21 2011 16:41 TheKing. wrote:
On March 19 2011 18:19 Alzadar wrote:
On March 19 2011 17:26 cuppatea wrote:
On March 19 2011 17:16 Beabs wrote:
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
the only problem is Zealot gets charge to speed up, Sentry can use FF to slow you down all the way, M+M get stim, Colossus can walk anywhere, Void flies and attacks while moving, and Ghost got that cloak status. So If hydra is off creep, they can not really get away from them. Of course Siege tank and Immortal do not have anything like that, but they are usually not off my there selves anyways.
Sure all the other guys get neat toys and the poor Hydras cant run faster anywhere, right? Just take 2-3 Overlords .... activate their creep spreading ability ... and give them a move command on 2-3 Hydralisks. They will follow your little buggers around and happily spread creep and you dont even have to micro anything (unless the Hydra which was followed is killed). You want the opponent to shoot your Hydras or some "spare Overlords" you built in addition to your supply! It is much cheaper to sacrifice 100 minerals than a bunch of Hydras.
Btw ... boohooo ... if Stimpack runs out the poor Marines cant get away from those Banelings or Zerglings. Just a little sarcasm to show you how the "big complaint" looks from the other side of the fence.
I know theorycrafting is fun, but seriously, I'm almost 100% certain you've never even TRIED doing that. It's unfeasible and ineffective.
Marines can't outrun banelings without stim Ergo, hydralisks are fast enough.
lets remember the banelings get a speed buff on creep too so hydras cant outrun them period oh its a comparison with marines you want? base movespeeds the same, stim speed = creep speed except it can be used anywhere and buffs damage output damage dealt to itself via stim is offset via combat shields upgrade same range base, 6v5 upgraded, 6v6 with bunkers two marines deal slightly less dps than one hydra, where hydras cost 50 gas more in this equation, and thats before they activate stim tier 1 vs tier 2, so marines can be produced long before hydras can
If hydras had a base range of 6 and the upgrade instead increased movement speed off creep to match the roach we'd see alot more Hydras in play.
As was mentioned, Hydra speed off creep is 2.25 which is the same as alot of other units from other races but they are slow in comparison to other Zerg units which is a big deal.
I remember reading a thread saying alot of unit combos are powerful because the units are able to move together, Marines & Marauders make a good combo because they all move at the same speed. The strength in Zergs army is speed and mobility, our units are, pound for pound, weaker then the enemy races but with faster units we can harass, surround, retreat and the like to take advantage and win the day.
A Zerg Player investing in Hydras off creep feels very much like leaning on a crutch, they are slower then our other units so we have a much harder time getting in the right positions, surrounding or retreating which contradicts how Zerg is meant to be played and I believe that is why we are rarely seeing alot of hydra use.
If hydras were able to move at the same speed as the roach they would be alot better at finding those favorable postions to get a good arc or surround and would better retreat if the situation become unfavorable, they'd also be able to reinforce, support and harass alot better and Hydras would become a much more cost effective investment over the course of the game despite what counters it in a straight up fight on paper.
The Hydralisk has the overwhelming problem of no mobility unless I use overlord creep in advance or highway to someones base which makes my all in too obvious. Its just too hard and too silly to use them outside of defensive reasons which is exactly where I don't ever want to be.
I think the hydra’s niche in the game has changed since the release, and we’re taking time to change our expectations for the unit. In ZvT, we’ve pretty much accepted hydras aren’t really used, but in ZvP with things like mass ling builds being developed, and the potential of high templar being nerfed, earlier spires are going to be more cost effective than hydras. Hydra’s aren’t cost effective mid-game.
But I think that the hydra’s true potential is apparent in the late game of ZvP, because it definitely doesn’t during the early and mid-game. =( I usually go roach/corruptor with some brood lords, but when you are throwing two 200 armies at each other, you’re corruptors dominate the air, and roaches do ok against the ground army. Realistically though, there should be leftover gateway units, since Protoss units cost more. If the Protoss player’s any good, this could cause some trouble. Throwing hydras into the mix when you’re getting ready for that 300 food push makes you’re first two hundred army much more effective, and lets your reinforcements just rofl stomp you’re way home, especially if you throw some hydras into your reinforcements once the colossus are gone. Hydra’s don’t need a speed upgrade or anything to fulfill that role competently.
But yeah, I think hydras are a pretty risky business anywhere else. =S
On March 22 2011 00:37 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: i just dont understand what was wrong with the hydra from broodwar? i mean even its attack looked cooler
If Blizzard had kept the Hydra from BW there would hardly be any point for Roaches as a cheap unit AND the "move faster on creep" stuff is part of the game philosophy now to enable Zerg to cover the map with creep tumors. People complaining about the Hydra are still thinking in BW dimensions or are overwhelmed by the management of creep.
On March 21 2011 15:56 susiederkins wrote:
On March 21 2011 14:09 Yokoblue wrote:
On March 21 2011 14:00 Attica wrote: This could all be fixed if overlords could drop creep whilst on the move. If that were the case u could just bring overlords with hydras and have a creep road being made as they moved.
OP ? I say yes
The thing is that hydra need to be used with timing pushes or counter to warpgates timing pushes not for a "All around unit" like the roach-stalker or the likes
But the question becomes why bother with the hydras when roaches do the job, are cheaper, and don't have such absurd weaknesses? The unit is just absurdly bad overall.
1. Roaches dont hit air units. 2. Hydras still have longer range and this allows a Zerg to stack his attacking units deeper. Even shooting over a Forcefield is possible for Hydras which Roaches cant really do that well.
On March 21 2011 16:41 TheKing. wrote:
On March 19 2011 18:19 Alzadar wrote:
On March 19 2011 17:26 cuppatea wrote:
On March 19 2011 17:16 Beabs wrote:
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
the only problem is Zealot gets charge to speed up, Sentry can use FF to slow you down all the way, M+M get stim, Colossus can walk anywhere, Void flies and attacks while moving, and Ghost got that cloak status. So If hydra is off creep, they can not really get away from them. Of course Siege tank and Immortal do not have anything like that, but they are usually not off my there selves anyways.
Sure all the other guys get neat toys and the poor Hydras cant run faster anywhere, right? Just take 2-3 Overlords .... activate their creep spreading ability ... and give them a move command on 2-3 Hydralisks. They will follow your little buggers around and happily spread creep and you dont even have to micro anything (unless the Hydra which was followed is killed). You want the opponent to shoot your Hydras or some "spare Overlords" you built in addition to your supply! It is much cheaper to sacrifice 100 minerals than a bunch of Hydras.
Btw ... boohooo ... if Stimpack runs out the poor Marines cant get away from those Banelings or Zerglings. Just a little sarcasm to show you how the "big complaint" looks from the other side of the fence.
I know theorycrafting is fun, but seriously, I'm almost 100% certain you've never even TRIED doing that. It's unfeasible and ineffective.
Marines can't outrun banelings without stim Ergo, hydralisks are fast enough.
lets remember the banelings get a speed buff on creep too so hydras cant outrun them period oh its a comparison with marines you want? base movespeeds the same, stim speed = creep speed except it can be used anywhere and buffs damage output damage dealt to itself via stim is offset via combat shields upgrade same range base, 6v5 upgraded, 6v6 with bunkers two marines deal slightly less dps than one hydra, where hydras cost 50 gas more in this equation, and thats before they activate stim tier 1 vs tier 2, so marines can be produced long before hydras can
I was being sarcastic by pointing out the flaw in the other guys argument. Either way though, that's not good logic for why hydras are underpowered... Apples to oranges.
The hydra cannot evolve to be useful in the game as its current state stands. This is due to the sheer fact that a hydra is completely unmicroable.
Have you tried to micro roaches off creep? That's about the same speed as a hydra on.... creep
The fact is: Units have 4 basic properties: Energy / HP / DPS / Speed
With exception to the energy property, units typically have 2 of the 3 left over traits. The hydra has nothing but dps. It's HP is 30 over a drone for god sakes.
think blizz is letting them stay the way they are now because they are probably gonna make them morph into some other unit in future expansions like a lurker for example. Only logical reason they are still in the game unchanged at the moment
Blizzard has already said before that the reason the Lurker isn't in SC2 is because it's role overlaps too much with the Baneling.
That being said, I don't get what role the hydra is supposed to fulfill that other units can't. The roach is better in every way with the exception of anti-air, and in most matchups I prefer queens, spire tech and infestors to deal with air.
If anti-air is really the role hydra's are designed for I'd rather have them remove hydras. Instead they could add: - Lair tech research to allow queens to move at the same speed they do on creep off creep - Corruption changed to something more usefull, perhaps anti air broodlings on a cooldown?