The Death of the Hydra? - Page 20
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sambour
Canada62 Posts
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MooseyFate
United States237 Posts
On March 09 2011 03:03 charlie420247 wrote: i really dont know why eveyrone is asking zerg players to try new things.... this has been discussed TO DEATH!!!! what unit combos would you like me to try???? IVE TRIED THEM ALL!!!!! hydras are OKAY at what they do. they buy you time. you can build a few to buy time but if you overcommit in the slightest your FUCKED. 4 coll and a handful of stalker sentry beat 200 army of hydras ez pz. zerg only has 9 units compared to terrans like ~15 (one of these units is corrupter = basically useless in zvt unless they go BC, another is hydra ><) so why dont YOU start doing somthing different. terrans do the exact same tank marine timing push or hellion --> banshee strat every fucking game, and noone talks shit about them.... except for me, and nearly every other zerg and protoss i know. No need to rage at a fellow Zerg player, especially because I think you misunderstood my post. I play Zerg and always feel like I start the game behind my opponent if they are not Z as well. In the current state of the Meta and actual game, Zerg has fewer options and top level Z players are doing almost everything they can with what they have available to them and are still coming up short compared to the other two races. I was suggesting that there needs to be a change to the Hydra in terms of role, not just DPS or Faster Move Speed, that will help that unit fit into the rest of the Zerg army as a whole. | ||
Arrian
United States889 Posts
But even though I find the OP's arguments about the role of the hydra strong, I can't say that it has no uses. Hydra/speedling is an absolute hammer against giant gateway unit compositions. Against VR rushes or pheonixes hydras are extremely effective. ZvT right now they aren't used often but I still go hydra/roach in ZvT now and again when an opponent insists on pure bio, and it works pretty well. I don't think Blizzard needs to start over when it comes to the hydra, but I find a quick easy solution hard to dream up. Hydras still see enough use in professional/high level play that IMO if these really good players are using them, they definitely have uses, but there's enough downsides to the hydra to limit them unnecessarily. | ||
Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
On March 09 2011 04:42 Arrian wrote: ZvT right now they aren't used often but I still go hydra/roach in ZvT now and again when an opponent insists on pure bio, and it works pretty well. I would like to know how you do that. I genuinely want to know. Every time I tried Hydras in ZvT they got absolutely demolished by BIO/Tanks. They are really only effective against Vikings/Thors, in my eyes. And Battlecruisers too. Marines, hellions, tanks, marauders kill then too cost effective, for me. 100 minerals in marines can kill 100/50 in Hydras, and with increased numbers the marines "instant" shot kill Hydras even faster and more cost effective. Over 15 units marines kill Hydras almost 1for1, so 50min against 100/50. And I am yet to meet a Terran that don't make marines against zerg. | ||
sLiMpoweR
United States430 Posts
On March 09 2011 00:45 SoylentCreep wrote: Yeah totally hitting from 4 sides is awesome in SC2 *sarcasm off*. Seems like somebody totally forgot how slow hydras are...and hitting from 4 sides is a not possible on most maps, not even with godly creep spread... and if it s possible then only in one spot on the map. Good luck timing out your hydras. No its not possible for u because ur bad t.t Pro players are already hititing from 2 and 3 sides (even with the low unit counts), go back to rts 101 before u assume to talk. Just because something is difficult does not mean it isn't worthwhile. On another note go watch moon's iem games. Kid owns shit up with hydras. | ||
Dystisis
Norway713 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
Hydras on creep can kite most of P Army except colossus. | ||
CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On March 09 2011 06:41 freetgy wrote: maybe get more queens early on and spread creep faster. Hydras on creep can kite most of P Army except colossus. Get obs, kill creep. Get raven, kill creep. Hydras can't kite stalkers. | ||
Slardar
Canada7592 Posts
A step in the right direction would be to increase the speed or introduce an upgrade for it, and possibly reduce it's cost & damage. Roaches do perhaps TOO much damage, and they fill the role of the Hydra. They tank, are extremely mobile, and do a decent amount of dps, not to mention half of the cost. | ||
xuanzue
Colombia1747 Posts
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
If hydras were buffed I feel like there could be some hydra all in builds that can straight up own protoss before they can get any of these units out. It would force lots of cannons. We've already seen this some, but a buff would make it so you would need like 9-10 cannons to stop these. | ||
Aruno
New Zealand748 Posts
Right now I do feel Hydras are like a weaker form of a marine. I feel right now, the only role Hydra's have, is a counter to "all-in"/heavy air attacks. Due to the speed limitation I also classify the Hydra as a defensive unit instead of offensive unit. | ||
AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On March 09 2011 07:47 CosmicSpiral wrote: Get obs, kill creep. Get raven, kill creep. Hydras can't kite stalkers. no, but they are already cost effective against Stalker by design... 1 Hydra (100/50) is on par with 1 Stalker (125/50) sure Stalker has twice hp, but Hydra has twice the dps a stalker makes like 6.9 dps against light / 9.7 dps against armored. while Hydras do 14.5 dps against everything while costing LESS. Hydras gain 1.2 dps per upgrade and armor affects all their health While Stalkers gain 0,7 dps upgrade and armor effects only half their health Colossus is one of the only ways to deal with mass hydras. now coming here and saying Hydras need a buff because they melt to colossus makes absolutely no sense when Hydras already shreed 90% of everything Protoss can build. And Hydra is already as fast as 80% of Protoss Army (2.25) + has the creep advantage. Hydra may be slow for Zerg standards, but definitly not for game standards. | ||
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
The hydra was never broken, it really did come down to metagame - players before didn't grasp the full importance of creep. Just look at any GSL game of a Zerg in season 1, to the current season. Even Idra and Nestea rarely spread creep farther than a single tumor from the expansion. And we haven't even seen major Nydus usage yet, with a few games here and there really underlying the amazing possibilities they open up (hopetorture vs fruitdealer) Buffs of 10-15hp were tried in the beta, and it was broken. The hydra is a perfectly fine unit, people just didn't realize creep was so important. Now, people are beginning to move mass overlords with speed with their hydras, you are starting to see queen drops for tumors at the front lines. Why don't you use unit tester and see how the hydra works with creep, and without. You'll realize they just aren't being used correctly, as cliche as that might sound. We are also seeing a similar metagame change with the hellion - no longer used as a quick build 2 against Zerg (or 5 for crazy reactor instead of blue flame!!11!) for harassment and then never make them again. Instead, now we are seeing them used aggressively against Protoss with the new emergence of mech, which is still in it's infantile stages (take iNControl vs DDE) as well as in TvT, with the many recent games with TLO, IMMVP, Jinro, etc... where Hellions are extremely useful, not just in a early timing attack (a trend started about 2 months ago) but in full combat. We are also seeing phoenixes change in the metagame, and the recent patch did nothing to change balance (besides in PvZ) but did everything to encourage further investigation into the unit. Spoiler Alert regarding GSL March: + Show Spoiler + Jinro even stated that if HongUnPrime goes phoenixes, he will lose, and gasp, what happened So I think the Original Post is completely wrong, and off. Just because when YOU use the unit you fail, doesn't mean it needs to be buffed. Maybe you aren't playing the unit correctly, and you should look to see if there is any way that unit could be used well. Take the reaper - while recent 'nerfs' have served to limit it's application, the reaper still has it's use and is extremely powerful at specific times. Some units are more niche than others; the marine will always be seen as too powerful because of its resourcefulness. And a unit may not be designed to be an end-all be all, some units are there because they can be used for very specific timing attacks other races have a hard time dealing with. Every unit has a time and place - if you think your unit is trash, learn at what game time it isn't. If you think your unit is weak, learn what engagement it is strongest in. Ravens, Archons, Motherships, infestors, phoenixes, carriers even (PainUser vs Kiwikaki) are all becoming relevant units, but people either don't know how to use them or are just starting to. | ||
Mailing
United States3087 Posts
Zerg have been experimenting with hydra since release. It's not like Ravens or carriers or Archons, where you don't need them becuase there are better units... hydra are the primary anti air for the zerg ground army. Hydra are strong, but at 100/50, it's a joke how fast they die. How would terrans react if Marines were 50/25? That's what a hydra is. Except 2 marines are better anyway. | ||
Serpico
4285 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:07 Mailing wrote: Hydra are strong, but at 100/50, it's a joke how fast they die. How would terrans react if Marines were 50/25? That's what a hydra is. Except 2 marines are better anyway. yeah and Stalker is worse, cost more how that isn't a joke? and P doesn't even have queens with transfuse for Anti Air. half the hp of the stalker double the dps, seems absolute fine 1:1 both units die unupgraded upgraded Hydra> Stalker | ||
Serpico
4285 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:13 freetgy wrote: yeah and Stalker is worse, cost more how that isn't a joke? and P doesn't even have queens with transfuse for Anti Air. Stalkers are more mobile and you can get blink. | ||
freetgy
1720 Posts
On March 09 2011 09:14 Serpico wrote: Stalkers are more mobile and you can get blink. ling/Hydras are the counter to blink stalkers.... how does this work with you understanding ? | ||
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