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Canada8989 Posts
With the (seemingly confirmed) announcement of a 1 M$ prize pool at the Esport World Cup tournament in Riyad. The Saudi Arabian government will have invested about 2,7 M$ into Starcraft 2 esport prize pool (through ESL and Gamers8-ESWC) since Blizzard stopped funding SC2 esport after the end of the 2022-2023 season.
While my math may be a bit funky, this means that about 80% of all SC2 esport prize money since blizzard departure will have comes from the Saudi government.
Poll: How are you feeling about this?I don't care (93) 27% It's wrong and SC2 esport could not survive without it (79) 23% It's wrong and SC2 esport could survive without it (76) 22% It's good and SC2 esport could not survive without it (54) 16% It's good and SC2 esport could survive without it (39) 11% 341 total votes Your vote: How are you feeling about this? (Vote): It's wrong and SC2 esport could survive without it
(Vote): It's wrong and SC2 esport could not survive without it
(Vote): It's good and SC2 esport could survive without it
(Vote): It's good and SC2 esport could not survive without it
(Vote): I don't care
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I think Saudi government has made a mistake. They should've spent this money on Brood War tournaments.
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On April 21 2024 02:55 durachok wrote:
I think Saudi government has made a mistake. They should've spent this money on Brood War tournaments.
100%. but how could they know?
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On April 21 2024 02:55 durachok wrote:
I think Saudi government has made a mistake. They should've spent this money on Brood War tournaments.
Brood War not fun enough for the princes.
Like legit if someone with the money or connection weren't interested in SC2 I doubt it would've been included with the given prize pool on its own merit in terms of return/popularity.
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United States33388 Posts
On April 21 2024 03:36 argonautdice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2024 02:55 durachok wrote:
I think Saudi government has made a mistake. They should've spent this money on Brood War tournaments. Brood War not fun enough for the princes. Like legit if someone with the money or connection weren't interested in SC2 I doubt it would've been included with the given prize pool on its own merit in terms of return/popularity.
There's prolly little to no chance that anyone on the Saudi side gives a shit about SC2. If I had to guess, it's more that ESL/EFG who are organizing the ESWC, still value the game for a variety of reasons. The fact that it's already part of the ESL portfolio, the fact that it has established infrastructure (that ESL is already paying for), the fact that it has historic value in esports, the fact that it's been played in legitimate sporting competitions like the Asian Games (even though it was trial/exhibition category), the fact that higher-ups at EFG prolly still remember SC2 in its prime and have some subconscious favoritism for it, etc. If you're looking to fill out the lineup of games, it's not a bad choice to throw in toward the tail end.
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France12880 Posts
Let's get money in the scene when we can. In the grand scheme of things, I doubt we can sustain the scene in the long term -> newer players probably wouldn't come to sc2 anyways, so even if huge prizepools like that are very top heavy, it's alright.
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I don't like it and will not watch the EWC personally. Admittedly SC2 would be in dire straits without it but i prefer atleast pretending to have morals over sportswashing.
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United States1872 Posts
On April 21 2024 07:17 Luolis wrote:
I don't like it and will not watch the EWC personally. Admittedly SC2 would be in dire straits without it but i prefer atleast pretending to have morals over sportswashing.
We all compromise our morals for the sake of entertainment and personal satisfaction. If it wasn't Saudis in SC2, it's the sweatshops that make your clothes or the chick fil a that you eat. I'd rather have some money go to the dudes playing StarCraft than some other nefarious purpose.
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Canada8989 Posts
On April 21 2024 07:04 Poopi wrote:
Let's get money in the scene when we can. In the grand scheme of things, I doubt we can sustain the scene in the long term -> newer players probably wouldn't come to sc2 anyways, so even if huge prizepools like that are very top heavy, it's alright.
I know it's somewhat blasphemous, but to be honest, even outside of the whole sport-washing thing, I don't know if I want the money that much.
Of course, I like the pros, and good for them if they can make some good paydays, but, let's be real, the very top players have made some serious cash in the last couple of years, and this tournament probably won't change much in the rest of the life of those who aren't at the top. Maru, Serral, Dark, or Reynor have had their work very well compensated, I don't really care about them getting half a mil more. If you said Gerald or Ragnarok would get it, then it would be a different story, but it's probably not happening.
Starcraft 2 professional scene is winding down, we all know it, we've known it for years. I suppose I would like it to be different, but I've long made peace with where we are and are going.
It feels a bit icky to get dragged back onto the stage for the ''biggest'' tournament ever in SC2. Like a has-been band getting paid millions to perform background music at some rich dude's party (and not a great dude). We've done the whole ''big arena -fancy light show - huge paycheck'' thing, maybe it would be time to have something more intimate.
However, I guess I would feel differently if it wasn't the Saudis organizing it.
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On April 21 2024 07:46 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2024 07:17 Luolis wrote:
I don't like it and will not watch the EWC personally. Admittedly SC2 would be in dire straits without it but i prefer atleast pretending to have morals over sportswashing. We all compromise our morals for the sake of entertainment and personal satisfaction. If it wasn't Saudis in SC2, it's the sweatshops that make your clothes or the chick fil a that you eat. I'd rather have some money go to the dudes playing StarCraft than some other nefarious purpose.
Yeah i get that and ofc its impossible to be 100% moral in our current society. I still prefer trying to live according to certain moral things and boycotting the most egregious offenders of those is atleast in my brain better for nothing. It's also why i wont be watching the Olympics this year (Russian athletes participating). Imo its a bit of a joke that the Starcraft World Championship is belittled and made little more than a propaganda event for some of the biggest human rights abusers in the world.
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United States33388 Posts
On April 21 2024 07:46 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2024 07:17 Luolis wrote:
I don't like it and will not watch the EWC personally. Admittedly SC2 would be in dire straits without it but i prefer atleast pretending to have morals over sportswashing. We all compromise our morals for the sake of entertainment and personal satisfaction. If it wasn't Saudis in SC2, it's the sweatshops that make your clothes or the chick fil a that you eat. I'd rather have some money go to the dudes playing StarCraft than some other nefarious purpose.
I've written some form of this response multiple times, but picking and choosing your battles is perfectly good and fine. Trying to gotcha people over hypocrisy only leads to a nihilistic world view where all accountability is absolved.
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On April 21 2024 08:27 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2024 07:04 Poopi wrote:
Let's get money in the scene when we can. In the grand scheme of things, I doubt we can sustain the scene in the long term -> newer players probably wouldn't come to sc2 anyways, so even if huge prizepools like that are very top heavy, it's alright. I know it's somewhat blasphemous, but to be honest, even outside of the whole sport-washing thing, I don't know if I want the money that much. Of course, I like the pros, and good for them if they can make some good paydays, but, let's be real, the very top players have made some serious cash in the last couple of years, and this tournament probably won't change much in the rest of the life of those who aren't at the top. Maru, Serral, Dark, or Reynor have had their work very well compensated, I don't really care about them getting half a mil more. If you said Gerald or Ragnarok would get it, then it would be a different story, but it's probably not happening. Starcraft 2 professional scene is winding down, we all know it, we've known it for years. I suppose I would like it to be different, but I've long made peace with where we are and are going. It feels a bit icky to get dragged back onto the stage for the ''biggest'' tournament ever in SC2. Like a has-been band getting paid millions to perform background music at some rich dude's party (and not a great dude). We've done the whole ''big arena -fancy light show - huge paycheck'' thing, maybe it would be time to have something more intimate. However, I guess I would feel differently if it wasn't the Saudis organizing it.
I relate to this a lot, probably articulated my thoughts better than I could
I don't even care either way about the Saudi part. These just clearly aren't the same as the old tournaments, regardless of prize pool
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Canada8989 Posts
On April 21 2024 08:53 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2024 08:27 Nakajin wrote:On April 21 2024 07:04 Poopi wrote:
Let's get money in the scene when we can. In the grand scheme of things, I doubt we can sustain the scene in the long term -> newer players probably wouldn't come to sc2 anyways, so even if huge prizepools like that are very top heavy, it's alright. I know it's somewhat blasphemous, but to be honest, even outside of the whole sport-washing thing, I don't know if I want the money that much. Of course, I like the pros, and good for them if they can make some good paydays, but, let's be real, the very top players have made some serious cash in the last couple of years, and this tournament probably won't change much in the rest of the life of those who aren't at the top. Maru, Serral, Dark, or Reynor have had their work very well compensated, I don't really care about them getting half a mil more. If you said Gerald or Ragnarok would get it, then it would be a different story, but it's probably not happening. Starcraft 2 professional scene is winding down, we all know it, we've known it for years. I suppose I would like it to be different, but I've long made peace with where we are and are going. It feels a bit icky to get dragged back onto the stage for the ''biggest'' tournament ever in SC2. Like a has-been band getting paid millions to perform background music at some rich dude's party (and not a great dude). We've done the whole ''big arena -fancy light show - huge paycheck'' thing, maybe it would be time to have something more intimate. However, I guess I would feel differently if it wasn't the Saudis organizing it. I relate to this a lot, probably articulated my thoughts better than I could I don't even care either way about the Saudi part. These just clearly aren't the same as the old tournaments, regardless of prize pool
To be clear, I'm not that nostalgic about big tournaments. The current (and most probably future) SC2 scene can be some great fun. We get to know the people, it's a bit more laid back, we can become an active part of the community much easier... but at the same time, the competition is still there. Big more serious ''esport'', events are cool, I tune in to most of them, it hit a different nerve, but I like what we have outside of them too.
I mean, the WTL is one of my favorite tournament series ever, in no small part because I get to cover it. A decade back, when TL used to have a bunch of applications for writer positions, there's no way I could have done the Proleague articles - my Kpop reference game is not nearly strong enough - now I can do it
But anyway, I digress from the topic.
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Northern Ireland25315 Posts
On April 21 2024 08:27 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2024 07:04 Poopi wrote:
Let's get money in the scene when we can. In the grand scheme of things, I doubt we can sustain the scene in the long term -> newer players probably wouldn't come to sc2 anyways, so even if huge prizepools like that are very top heavy, it's alright. I know it's somewhat blasphemous, but to be honest, even outside of the whole sport-washing thing, I don't know if I want the money that much. Of course, I like the pros, and good for them if they can make some good paydays, but, let's be real, the very top players have made some serious cash in the last couple of years, and this tournament probably won't change much in the rest of the life of those who aren't at the top. Maru, Serral, Dark, or Reynor have had their work very well compensated, I don't really care about them getting half a mil more. If you said Gerald or Ragnarok would get it, then it would be a different story, but it's probably not happening. Starcraft 2 professional scene is winding down, we all know it, we've known it for years. I suppose I would like it to be different, but I've long made peace with where we are and are going. It feels a bit icky to get dragged back onto the stage for the ''biggest'' tournament ever in SC2. Like a has-been band getting paid millions to perform background music at some rich dude's party (and not a great dude). We've done the whole ''big arena -fancy light show - huge paycheck'' thing, maybe it would be time to have something more intimate. However, I guess I would feel differently if it wasn't the Saudis organizing it.
Well said.
As an aside, look at the GSL crowdfunding, when it actually came to it, fans paid a pretty decent chunk actually. It took until what, 2023 until they were actually asked?
I doubt fans could sustain the scene to the degree it was when Blizzard paid the bills, but they can certainly sustain something.
Hell those old war chest skins raised a decent chunk of cash, myself I play with defaults but I paid to support a scene that gives me hours of entertainment and inspiration. I’m sure I’m not alone there either.
It feels like we haven’t even been given the option to fund the scene by other means, and by absence of said option are being sold this Saudi saviour nonsense. ‘Well nobody wants to fund it so we’ll step in’ when well, you haven’t really asked the funding question of the actual fans to begin with.
Fuck that noise man.
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Northern Ireland25315 Posts
On April 21 2024 08:35 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2024 07:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On April 21 2024 07:17 Luolis wrote:
I don't like it and will not watch the EWC personally. Admittedly SC2 would be in dire straits without it but i prefer atleast pretending to have morals over sportswashing. We all compromise our morals for the sake of entertainment and personal satisfaction. If it wasn't Saudis in SC2, it's the sweatshops that make your clothes or the chick fil a that you eat. I'd rather have some money go to the dudes playing StarCraft than some other nefarious purpose. Yeah i get that and ofc its impossible to be 100% moral in our current society. I still prefer trying to live according to certain moral things and boycotting the most egregious offenders of those is atleast in my brain better for nothing. It's also why i wont be watching the Olympics this year (Russian athletes participating). Imo its a bit of a joke that the Starcraft World Championship is belittled and made little more than a propaganda event for some of the biggest human rights abusers in the world.
Agreed.
In the greater scheme of things not watching one SC2 tournament is like the most microscopic sacrifice imaginable.
Whether one thinks it’s something morally objectionable to begin with is another kettle of fish. But if one does I mean, it’s hard to think of a more trivial sacrifice than that
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this is the hundredth post on saudi money in sc2, but honestly the only thing worse than all the things the saudi government has done, are the virtue signalers who rear their ugly heads every time the crown prince wants to save the sport. you can overlook it for your iphone and uber and soccer matches, but you cant overlook it for sc2. so just say "i dont care about sc2" and move on, no need to virtue signal every month  (not calling anyone out in particular)
On April 21 2024 10:08 WombaT wrote:
Not watching one SC2 tournament is like the most microscopic sacrifice imaginable.
Right because you don't care about sc2 that much. Which is a fine position to have, but if you applied this to anything else, it's an enormous sacrifice nobody would make. No football fan ever would boycott the superbowl, no football fan would ever boycott champions league finals or world cup, no nba fan would boycott the finals esp when their team is in these championships, as is the case with Gamers8.
I don't disagree with Wax on much but this is something that I always have to push back on, not the boycotting part but the intellectual honesty of it. I don't agree with Miz much, (any goat list that doesn't include Life is just unserious), but I agree with his take on this one.
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Who thinks SC2 could survive without it? All of ESL is Saudi money! What is even left after they're gone? Have you seen Korean SC2 leagues lately??
I don't really mind consuming content backed / paid for by Saudi money, but I'm always going to shit on them. I think it's a much harder question if you're a pro-gamer / pro SC2 player (all 24 of them), and are pretty damn dependent on their money to sustain yourself. I think it's not unreasonable to publicly shit on SA, while also taking their money. I'd be concerned about going to their events in SA though!
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Canada8989 Posts
On April 21 2024 12:05 luxon wrote:this is the hundredth post on saudi money in sc2, but honestly the only thing worse than all the things the saudi government has done, are the virtue signalers who rear their ugly heads every time the crown prince wants to save the sport. you can overlook it for your iphone and uber and soccer matches, but you cant overlook it for sc2. so just say "i dont care about sc2" and move on, no need to virtue signal every month (not calling anyone out in particular) Show nested quote +On April 21 2024 10:08 WombaT wrote:
Not watching one SC2 tournament is like the most microscopic sacrifice imaginable. Right because you don't care about sc2 that much. Which is a fine position to have, but if you applied this to anything else, it's an enormous sacrifice nobody would make. No football fan ever would boycott the superbowl, no football fan would ever boycott champions league finals or world cup, no nba fan would boycott the finals esp when their team is in these championships, as is the case with Gamers8. I don't disagree with Wax on much but this is something that I always have to push back on, not the boycotting part but the intellectual honesty of it. I don't agree with Miz much, (any goat list that doesn't include Life is just unserious), but I agree with his take on this one.
I don't think anyone here dosen't care about Starcraft 2, but I would still say skipping a tournament is a very small sacrifice, there's more than enough Starcraft to go around if you don't want to watch a particular tournament.
It's more the contrary, I don't think about the way my phone was built a lot, but I do kind of think about SC2, like pretty much every day for the last decade or so. It's normal to be more affected when it's something dear to someone heart. Plus Sc2 is something pretty small, we won't sway the mind of the Saudi prince obviously, but we can chose how we interact with the professional scene.
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United States33388 Posts
On April 21 2024 12:05 luxon wrote:this is the hundredth post on saudi money in sc2, but honestly the only thing worse than all the things the saudi government has done, are the virtue signalers who rear their ugly heads every time the crown prince wants to save the sport. you can overlook it for your iphone and uber and soccer matches, but you cant overlook it for sc2. so just say "i dont care about sc2" and move on, no need to virtue signal every month (not calling anyone out in particular) Show nested quote +On April 21 2024 10:08 WombaT wrote:
Not watching one SC2 tournament is like the most microscopic sacrifice imaginable. Right because you don't care about sc2 that much. Which is a fine position to have, but if you applied this to anything else, it's an enormous sacrifice nobody would make. No football fan ever would boycott the superbowl, no football fan would ever boycott champions league finals or world cup, no nba fan would boycott the finals esp when their team is in these championships, as is the case with Gamers8. I don't disagree with Wax on much but this is something that I always have to push back on, not the boycotting part but the intellectual honesty of it. I don't agree with Miz much, (any goat list that doesn't include Life is just unserious), but I agree with his take on this one.
Honestly, you're presenting it in such binary terms that it doesn't feel like a discussion in good faith.
You legitimately believe that no one would ever make a substantial materialistic sacrifice for moral reasons? And you legitimately believe that ALL the people who claim to do so are are being intellectually dishonest?
I mean, if this sort of thinking is common, I guess that would explain the self-justified selfish behavior of many people in the world...
I might understand if some of you guys were out here actively saying, "boycotting EWC is good, but you should ALSO participate in these [things] to protest/improve the Saudi regime." But being actively OFFENDED by other people's actions is just crazy to me, and strikes me as self-rationalization to drown ones own guilt.
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Poll options might not be optimal, I feel there's overlap between options. For example, to me it's wrong but it's also good, and thus I partly also don't care.
Probably better if it was just something like "Very uncomfortable", "uncomfortable", "indifferent", "satisfied", "very satisfied" or something.
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EPT
