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On May 22 2024 17:27 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2024 16:29 Harris1st wrote:On May 22 2024 05:05 WombaT wrote:On May 22 2024 04:37 Balnazza wrote:
Ignoring the troll, dude on drugs and/or badly written bot (I really can't decide what is the most fitting here):
There is currently an interesting debate in the Handball-world, since Saudi-Arabia apparently decided to "nope" out of it. Saudis don't want to host the World Cup and they gave up the Club World Cup (isn't it funny that no matter the sport, all these "Club World Cups" always seem to be in SA, Qatar or China? Weird...)
So some people are upset about that, thinking it is a bad sign for Handball as a sport, that it is not globally appealing enough for the Saudis to sink money in. Which is extra-bad considering that the Handball World Cup actually allows mercenaries (you are not barred to play for other nations like in Football, you just need to wait out some time...I think two or three years?).
On the other hand, for example the President of the German Handball Association, isn't really fazed by it, pointing out the hypocracy that some people constantly blame Saudi-Arabia, but still hunt their money like crazy.
Considering how "small" Handball is and globally not-attractive compared to other sports, I think it is an interesting comparison to SC2. As far as I gather handball is vaguely comparable to snooker, it’s quite big in a few countries, but it’s not really a global sport. Snooker now has its Riyadh Masters, with some murmurings of the World Championship ending up in Saudi Arabia, its historic home’s contract being up for renewal and the venue needing some work etc. Players are a bit split, but this pays their bills after all. Fans? It just makes very little sense to hold the World Championship there. It’s only a relatively mainstream sport in the UK and Ireland, with some interest in mainland Europe, the odd Canadian or Australian pro and has quite a decent presence in China which is its only real growth market. If there was a Saudi interest in growing the sport, they’d fund the sport itself and not Saudi-based events specifically. Aside from ethical concerns, this is also a big basis of my criticism for these forays into SC2. They’re actually not that structurally beneficial to the overall scene and a vanity project as much as anything else. I also don’t feel SC2 will actually last long as a showpiece event on this Saudi circuit either. I’m unsure about the handball example, had they arranged to hold these events and pulled out subsequently or what? Interested to hear a bit more! I remember one world cup was in Katar (Google says 2015) and the Katari bought together a mercenary team of old stars from other nations and actually did quite well (2nd place overall) and it all seemed like handball would be the new shiny toy for Arabian oil money. 10 years later oil money pulled out and is gone and the sport is off worse because it was calculating with that money. EDIT @JimmyJ Hockey is dying in Canada? That can't be true can it? I've noticed a general decrease for winter sports in Europe but mostly because climate changes make it more and more expensive to go skiing for example but Hockey seems like the exception here because everyone can have a rink everywhere I guess. That just sounds bloody awful. Is the World Cup vaguely equivalent in Handball to the football one?
Tournament system is pretty comparable to football yes. League system as well with Champions League and all. Major difference probably beeing that World Cup and EU Cup are alternating yearly instead of two-yearly and Olympia is a lot bigger in handball
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On May 22 2024 17:27 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2024 16:29 Harris1st wrote:On May 22 2024 05:05 WombaT wrote:On May 22 2024 04:37 Balnazza wrote:
Ignoring the troll, dude on drugs and/or badly written bot (I really can't decide what is the most fitting here):
There is currently an interesting debate in the Handball-world, since Saudi-Arabia apparently decided to "nope" out of it. Saudis don't want to host the World Cup and they gave up the Club World Cup (isn't it funny that no matter the sport, all these "Club World Cups" always seem to be in SA, Qatar or China? Weird...)
So some people are upset about that, thinking it is a bad sign for Handball as a sport, that it is not globally appealing enough for the Saudis to sink money in. Which is extra-bad considering that the Handball World Cup actually allows mercenaries (you are not barred to play for other nations like in Football, you just need to wait out some time...I think two or three years?).
On the other hand, for example the President of the German Handball Association, isn't really fazed by it, pointing out the hypocracy that some people constantly blame Saudi-Arabia, but still hunt their money like crazy.
Considering how "small" Handball is and globally not-attractive compared to other sports, I think it is an interesting comparison to SC2. As far as I gather handball is vaguely comparable to snooker, it’s quite big in a few countries, but it’s not really a global sport. Snooker now has its Riyadh Masters, with some murmurings of the World Championship ending up in Saudi Arabia, its historic home’s contract being up for renewal and the venue needing some work etc. Players are a bit split, but this pays their bills after all. Fans? It just makes very little sense to hold the World Championship there. It’s only a relatively mainstream sport in the UK and Ireland, with some interest in mainland Europe, the odd Canadian or Australian pro and has quite a decent presence in China which is its only real growth market. If there was a Saudi interest in growing the sport, they’d fund the sport itself and not Saudi-based events specifically. Aside from ethical concerns, this is also a big basis of my criticism for these forays into SC2. They’re actually not that structurally beneficial to the overall scene and a vanity project as much as anything else. I also don’t feel SC2 will actually last long as a showpiece event on this Saudi circuit either. I’m unsure about the handball example, had they arranged to hold these events and pulled out subsequently or what? Interested to hear a bit more! I remember one world cup was in Katar (Google says 2015) and the Katari bought together a mercenary team of old stars from other nations and actually did quite well (2nd place overall) and it all seemed like handball would be the new shiny toy for Arabian oil money. 10 years later oil money pulled out and is gone and the sport is off worse because it was calculating with that money. EDIT @JimmyJ Hockey is dying in Canada? That can't be true can it? I've noticed a general decrease for winter sports in Europe but mostly because climate changes make it more and more expensive to go skiing for example but Hockey seems like the exception here because everyone can have a rink everywhere I guess. That just sounds bloody awful. Is the World Cup vaguely equivalent in Handball to the football one?
I'm still mad about that World Cup in Qatar, because Qater won against Germany in the Quarterfinals and it was highly controversial in terms of referee-decisions..
But yeah, that WC was basically part of Qatars sport-strategy back then. For football, they needed time (building the arenas, but also trying to raise their own top-team), but for Handball they just needed some halls and could buy up a national team. Ofc they did fall off afterwards.
It is interesting that something similiar happens in Esports now. With Team Falcons and Twisted Minds two SA-orgs are making a bit of fuzz. And I honestly still don't get how Saudi-Arabia could have won the last Overwatch World Cup...where did that come from exactly?
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On May 22 2024 16:29 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2024 05:05 WombaT wrote:On May 22 2024 04:37 Balnazza wrote:
Ignoring the troll, dude on drugs and/or badly written bot (I really can't decide what is the most fitting here):
There is currently an interesting debate in the Handball-world, since Saudi-Arabia apparently decided to "nope" out of it. Saudis don't want to host the World Cup and they gave up the Club World Cup (isn't it funny that no matter the sport, all these "Club World Cups" always seem to be in SA, Qatar or China? Weird...)
So some people are upset about that, thinking it is a bad sign for Handball as a sport, that it is not globally appealing enough for the Saudis to sink money in. Which is extra-bad considering that the Handball World Cup actually allows mercenaries (you are not barred to play for other nations like in Football, you just need to wait out some time...I think two or three years?).
On the other hand, for example the President of the German Handball Association, isn't really fazed by it, pointing out the hypocracy that some people constantly blame Saudi-Arabia, but still hunt their money like crazy.
Considering how "small" Handball is and globally not-attractive compared to other sports, I think it is an interesting comparison to SC2. As far as I gather handball is vaguely comparable to snooker, it’s quite big in a few countries, but it’s not really a global sport. Snooker now has its Riyadh Masters, with some murmurings of the World Championship ending up in Saudi Arabia, its historic home’s contract being up for renewal and the venue needing some work etc. Players are a bit split, but this pays their bills after all. Fans? It just makes very little sense to hold the World Championship there. It’s only a relatively mainstream sport in the UK and Ireland, with some interest in mainland Europe, the odd Canadian or Australian pro and has quite a decent presence in China which is its only real growth market. If there was a Saudi interest in growing the sport, they’d fund the sport itself and not Saudi-based events specifically. Aside from ethical concerns, this is also a big basis of my criticism for these forays into SC2. They’re actually not that structurally beneficial to the overall scene and a vanity project as much as anything else. I also don’t feel SC2 will actually last long as a showpiece event on this Saudi circuit either. I’m unsure about the handball example, had they arranged to hold these events and pulled out subsequently or what? Interested to hear a bit more! I remember one world cup was in Katar (Google says 2015) and the Katari bought together a mercenary team of old stars from other nations and actually did quite well (2nd place overall) and it all seemed like handball would be the new shiny toy for Arabian oil money. 10 years later oil money pulled out and is gone and the sport is off worse because it was calculating with that money. EDIT @JimmyJ Hockey is dying in Canada? That can't be true can it? I've noticed a general decrease for winter sports in Europe but mostly because climate changes make it more and more expensive to go skiing for example but Hockey seems like the exception here because everyone can have a rink everywhere I guess.
IMO, Hockey at low levels continues to be a great sport. However, it is dying in Canada. It started being noticeable when Canada stopped dominating at the World Junior events. Canada is still a major hockey power. It is no longer the far and away #1 country as it was for many decades. You'd see Canada dominate world junior events on a regular basis. This is no longer true. When Canada occasionally wins... its super close.
Enrolment #s in minor hockey in Canada are lower than in the USA for the first time ever. Enrolment is down in Canada and enrolment up in the USA. The USA is on its way to becoming the #1 world hockey power.
Interestingly, hockey is not treated as seriously in the USA as it is in Canada. As a result, the game is more fun in the USA!  So many teenage Canadians give up on hockey ... its sad. You can't blame the kids though. Its the system.
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On May 22 2024 14:11 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Hardly any money is needed to have fun competition. EA NHL '94 and Super Tecmo Bowl have fun competitive scenes with evolving metagames for more than 30 years. In EA NHL '94 there are AI programmers working on the game. If the AI is ever revamped it really won't be an EA game.
There is no "need" for big money. In fact, I'd say money wrecks the fun spirit and makes things too serious.
This doesn't just apply to Starcraft eSports. big money Top level pro hockey now sucks. big money Top level baseball is garbage. The huge amount of money behind those sports makes them have zero resemblance to the games played as a child and teenager. In baseball, every player weighs 225+ lbs and they are all 6'4" and up. The pitchers all throw at 99 MPH and are 6'6" tall. They get arm operations every 2 years because they are throwing pitchers that wreck their arms. In big money baseball... arm operations are a big part of the game. The sheer size of the pitchers has thrown off the balance of the primary interaction between hitter and pitcher. The pitchers are so tall and throw so hard and so steeply downhill that it forces every at bat into either a walk, or a strike out or a home run. its boring. In hockey the players are so big using $300 hockey sticks no longer made of wood that there is no room on the ice to do anything. Hockey is dying in Canada... and deservedly so. Its being strangled by the emphasis on money.
Top level, amateur hockey and baseball are still great fun. The games still resemble what they were 30,40,50+ years ago.
Wardi's events are more fun than these big money SC2 events. And, I'll bet you they are also more fair.
I've read various posts over the years where people want to boycott Saudi Arabia. I suggest do better than that. Give money to Wardi or other small local organizers who put on cool events.
I remember a long time ago when the german ESL Pro Series (EPS) shutdown for Warcraft 3 ~13 years ago. It was a big hit on the games economy. Back then, we did run a smaller tournament, that basically appealed to amateurs and the lower half of EPS players. When the news hit, one player who qualified, but was not in the EPS (but the league below that) came into our IRC, said "hey, because of EPS shutting down, I'm retiring, bye" and immediately left, never be heard off again.
The EPS basically funded the entire german WC3 scene and I think almost all EPS players retired soon after.
I bring this up, because I also remember that I did a short interview back then with a german site (Fit4Gaming) and got asked what I thought about the current scene in WC3. I said that while it was bad the money left, the scene was still in a great place because "only those who like the game" are left. Some agreed with me, but a good chunk of people also completly disagreed, stating the terrible state of the community because of it.
And that is basically what it boils down to: Of course you can have a scene without ESL or big money. How many Esports work on community-basis alone? Look at Age of Empires 2...sure, Red Bull and Microsoft are pumping in some money, but for the longest time, it was just a game organized by the community for the community. Same with WC3 nowadays. And don't get me started on all the sports that run without professional payment...pretty sure 90% of sports in germany would love to have the payout SC2 has.
But on the other hand, you have to be realistic about these kind of scenes aswell. You won't have pros who spend 10 hours a day on the game...or only very few. Most players will be amateurs, who play the game as a hobby, so the quality of the gameplay will be as such. And most definetly you won't have any big tournaments and big crowds, that is gone aswell. Maybe you get your occasional HomeStoryCup, but who knows. Also the community would need to jump in more and more to crowdfound, so TOs don't have to do it as a hobby.
Don't get me wrong, this doesn't have to be a bad thing. But you won't get a Serral vs. Maru final in Katowice with a prizepool of 250 bucks and a Starbucks coupon.
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Tetris isn't even in the top 100 of esports earnings, yet had some of the hypest tournaments and storylines I have seen.
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On May 22 2024 14:11 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Hardly any money is needed to have fun competition. EA NHL '94 and Super Tecmo Bowl have fun competitive scenes with evolving metagames for more than 30 years. In EA NHL '94 there are AI programmers working on the game. If the AI is ever revamped it really won't be an EA game.
There is no "need" for big money. In fact, I'd say money wrecks the fun spirit and makes things too serious.
.....
Good lord you cannot be serious.
Serral, Clem, Reynor, Hero, Byun, Maru, Dark, Cure, Solar, and more-90% of these players would disappear off the face of the earth if SC2 funding was depleted.
Money does not "wreck the spirit". This is an absurd notion. Money draws in players, it pushes players to hone their skills, to play SC2 full time, to spend time on it, to be able to earn a living. Dreamhack drew in over 60k viewers on Twitch only months ago-tournaments inspire people to play SC2, to join it, and don't forget-they allow people to fly in from all over the world to celebrate their love for SC2 and have a good time. People who make a living off SC2 content such as Pig, or pro players, or even thousands of casual fans.
There are still hundreds of players that play SC2 because of the money. On top of the aforementioned, say goodbye to players like Elazer, Showtime, Oliveira, Bunny, SHIN, Scarlett, Astrea, and more.
And say goodbye to wonderful content creators like Pig, Steadfast and Wardii who earn their living by casting high end tournaments.
If you think losing out on saudi funding won't destroy a massive portion of the community and lifeblood you are in for a terrible surprise.
On April 29 2024 05:45 rwala wrote:
Some tools for handling these issues when they pop up in e-sports and other contexts:
1. Ditch the Whataboutism. That other governments and business entities we support commit human rights abuses does not justify the Saudi government's atrocious human rights record. Nor does it particularly matter whether we are being 100% consistent in how we protest or take action by focusing on this one particular bad actor at this moment. Because we think and act with various heuristics and biases, none of us are immune from some amount of hypocrisy and it's better to care inconsistently than be consistently apathetic.
Ah yes, "whataboutism", the classic non-argument people use when they get called out on their hypocrisy. Nobody is trying to "justify the Saudi's human rights record", that's an argument you completely spun up yourself.
Nor does it particularly matter whether we are being 100% consistent in how we protest or take action by focusing on this one particular bad actor at this moment
Like hell it doesn't. You're joking, right? You don't get to pick which human rights abuse matters and which doesn't. You can't pretend to care about human rights where you are supporting tournaments that are funded by the US which has comitted endless human rights violations.
Where are your protests for every single other ESL tournament that is explicitly funded and sponsored by the US military? Are you aware what the US military has done?
They have very recently bombed, murdered, and tortured innocent human beings in the middle east. CHILDREN lost their parents. They lost their houses. They were brutally murdered. Almost four hundred THOUSAND innocent Iraqi civilians killed by the same US military sponsoring tournaments.The US government not too long ago sprayed agent orange all over innocent people in Vietnam after invading the country-go spend a few minutes on google to see the horrifying terrifying disfigurements the US military caused in innocent Vietnamese children. What entitles you to think you can wave away these horrific crimes?
Guantanamo bay where the US tortured and sexually humiliated people. Endless cruelty. MKULTRA where the US government literally kidnapped and drugged US citizens. US cops continue to relentlessly butcher black men and women. US government imprisons women for trying to get abortions in countless states and territories.
You completely ignore all these heinous crimes, and you're happy to support the bloodthirsty US government. But when people want money in SC2 from Saudi Arabia, you lose your mind. Tier A hypocrite without an ounce of awareness. Born bathed and raised in the bathwater of George Bush and Donald Trump. America, fuck yeah!
3. There are ways to raise these issues beyond boycotts and divestment. Even this thread helps, and I'm sure the Saudi gov't isn't happy that this community is having this convo. These events are actually a great opportunity to remind people that this is a regime that butchers, tortures, and commits many other horrific abuses. In the context of the Olympics, governments sometimes do "diplomatic" boycotts to protest human rights abuses, which essentially is a symbolic boycott in which countries refuse to send government envoys while insisting that players' rights are respected. Don't underestimate the power of these symbolic gestures. After all, the Saudi gov't is doing this precisely because of the symbolic power it can exert by projecting itself in a positive light on an international stage.
Thanks for posting about this and for the lively back-and-forth.
Yes, their government butchers and tortures people, and commits many other horrific abuses, just like the US government does, just like most of the EU do, but people like you seem to think it's okay when it's white countries doing all the butchery.
. After all, the Saudi gov't is doing this precisely because of the symbolic power it can exert by projecting itself in a positive light on an international stage.
Wait until you learn what the Olympics is. The US wrote the book on sports washing and are experts in destabilizing entire swathes of countries to protect their own interests, destroying the lives of millions living there in the process.
Oh and don't even get me started on how the US government is now literally aiding in the genocide of untold thousands of innocent CHILDREN in Palestine.
Same with Armenia!
Are you going to be making this same ruckus when we go to Dallas in 2 weeks? If not, then you are virtue signaling and are a tier 1 hypocrite.
If you really cared about human rights, you'd stop supporting genocidal dicatatorships like Azerbaijan as they invade Armenia proper to commit ethnic cleansing and even more heinous things I cannot describe her. Who are you kidding, I'm sure you're happy to buy a bunch of nice things for yourself that are from Azerbaijan (and the wonderful genocide denying Turkey, too).
Boycott all that petroleum your US government buys from SA? How about all the products made in blood, plastic, steel products, and more. Naw, you're happy to keep filling your gas guzzler with gas from SA. But oh no, they're spending money on SC2, god forbid.
If you're allowed to support the US government and military, then by every single means, people are allowed to support the Saudi government spending money in SC2.
EWC has as much to do with the butcher of Saudi women as US sponsored SC2 tournaments have to do with dead children in Afghanistan killed by the US military. You just don't like the fact that human beings who are ethnically SA are doing this.
And you know what? People are supporting them. Last time we had pillars of the community go to Gamers8-Pig, Rotterdam, Lowko, Artosis, Tasteless, Wardii, ZombieGrub, and more. At the end of the day, the people who matter are able to set aside their prejucides and keep SC2 a lively, fun game. As for some other people, forever a stick in the sand of racism.
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ESL is partnered with the U.S. Air Force as well, which is another big reason for boycotting them.
I agree with parts of sidasf's post: It would be hypocritical if we ignored the U.S. Air Force partnership.
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On May 25 2024 15:00 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
ESL is partnered with the U.S. Air Force as well, which is another big reason for boycotting them.
I agree with parts of sidasf's post: It would be hypocritical if we ignored the U.S. Air Force partnership.
Yeah you're right, I didn't realize it was still ongoing, edited my first post.
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On May 25 2024 15:11 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2024 15:00 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
ESL is partnered with the U.S. Air Force as well, which is another big reason for boycotting them.
I agree with parts of sidasf's post: It would be hypocritical if we ignored the U.S. Air Force partnership. Yeah you're right, I didn't realize it was still ongoing, edited my first post.
The U.S. Air Force partnership apparently started in February 2020, but I did not find out until much later. I actually started laughing when I did.
Much like the FIFA World Cup or the Olympics, this has turned into a shitshow.
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On May 25 2024 10:38 sidasf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2024 14:11 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Hardly any money is needed to have fun competition. EA NHL '94 and Super Tecmo Bowl have fun competitive scenes with evolving metagames for more than 30 years. In EA NHL '94 there are AI programmers working on the game. If the AI is ever revamped it really won't be an EA game.
There is no "need" for big money. In fact, I'd say money wrecks the fun spirit and makes things too serious.
..... Good lord you cannot be serious. Serral, Clem, Reynor, Hero, Byun, Maru, Dark, Cure, Solar, and more-90% of these players would disappear off the face of the earth if SC2 funding was depleted. Money does not "wreck the spirit". This is an absurd notion. Money draws in players, it pushes players to hone their skills, to play SC2 full time, to spend time on it, to be able to earn a living. Dreamhack drew in over 60k viewers on Twitch only months ago-tournaments inspire people to play SC2, to join it, and don't forget-they allow people to fly in from all over the world to celebrate their love for SC2 and have a good time. People who make a living off SC2 content such as Pig, or pro players, or even thousands of casual fans. There are still hundreds of players that play SC2 because of the money. On top of the aforementioned, say goodbye to players like Elazer, Showtime, Oliveira, Bunny, SHIN, Scarlett, Astrea, and more. And say goodbye to wonderful content creators like Pig, Steadfast and Wardii who earn their living by casting high end tournaments. If you think losing out on saudi funding won't destroy a massive portion of the community and lifeblood you are in for a terrible surprise. Show nested quote +On April 29 2024 05:45 rwala wrote:
Some tools for handling these issues when they pop up in e-sports and other contexts:
1. Ditch the Whataboutism. That other governments and business entities we support commit human rights abuses does not justify the Saudi government's atrocious human rights record. Nor does it particularly matter whether we are being 100% consistent in how we protest or take action by focusing on this one particular bad actor at this moment. Because we think and act with various heuristics and biases, none of us are immune from some amount of hypocrisy and it's better to care inconsistently than be consistently apathetic. Ah yes, "whataboutism", the classic non-argument people use when they get called out on their hypocrisy. Nobody is trying to "justify the Saudi's human rights record", that's an argument you completely spun up yourself. Show nested quote +Nor does it particularly matter whether we are being 100% consistent in how we protest or take action by focusing on this one particular bad actor at this moment Like hell it doesn't. You're joking, right? You don't get to pick which human rights abuse matters and which doesn't. You can't pretend to care about human rights where you are supporting tournaments that are funded by the US which has comitted endless human rights violations. Where are your protests for every single other ESL tournament that is explicitly funded and sponsored by the US military? Are you aware what the US military has done? They have very recently bombed, murdered, and tortured innocent human beings in the middle east. CHILDREN lost their parents. They lost their houses. They were brutally murdered. Almost four hundred THOUSAND innocent Iraqi civilians killed by the same US military sponsoring tournaments.The US government not too long ago sprayed agent orange all over innocent people in Vietnam after invading the country-go spend a few minutes on google to see the horrifying terrifying disfigurements the US military caused in innocent Vietnamese children. What entitles you to think you can wave away these horrific crimes? Guantanamo bay where the US tortured and sexually humiliated people. Endless cruelty. MKULTRA where the US government literally kidnapped and drugged US citizens. US cops continue to relentlessly butcher black men and women. US government imprisons women for trying to get abortions in countless states and territories. You completely ignore all these heinous crimes, and you're happy to support the bloodthirsty US government. But when people want money in SC2 from Saudi Arabia, you lose your mind. Tier A hypocrite without an ounce of awareness. Born bathed and raised in the bathwater of George Bush and Donald Trump. America, fuck yeah! Show nested quote +
3. There are ways to raise these issues beyond boycotts and divestment. Even this thread helps, and I'm sure the Saudi gov't isn't happy that this community is having this convo. These events are actually a great opportunity to remind people that this is a regime that butchers, tortures, and commits many other horrific abuses. In the context of the Olympics, governments sometimes do "diplomatic" boycotts to protest human rights abuses, which essentially is a symbolic boycott in which countries refuse to send government envoys while insisting that players' rights are respected. Don't underestimate the power of these symbolic gestures. After all, the Saudi gov't is doing this precisely because of the symbolic power it can exert by projecting itself in a positive light on an international stage.
Thanks for posting about this and for the lively back-and-forth.
Yes, their government butchers and tortures people, and commits many other horrific abuses, just like the US government does, just like most of the EU do, but people like you seem to think it's okay when it's white countries doing all the butchery. Show nested quote +. After all, the Saudi gov't is doing this precisely because of the symbolic power it can exert by projecting itself in a positive light on an international stage. Wait until you learn what the Olympics is. The US wrote the book on sports washing and are experts in destabilizing entire swathes of countries to protect their own interests, destroying the lives of millions living there in the process. Oh and don't even get me started on how the US government is now literally aiding in the genocide of untold thousands of innocent CHILDREN in Palestine. Same with Armenia! Are you going to be making this same ruckus when we go to Dallas in 2 weeks? If not, then you are virtue signaling and are a tier 1 hypocrite. If you really cared about human rights, you'd stop supporting genocidal dicatatorships like Azerbaijan as they invade Armenia proper to commit ethnic cleansing and even more heinous things I cannot describe her. Who are you kidding, I'm sure you're happy to buy a bunch of nice things for yourself that are from Azerbaijan (and the wonderful genocide denying Turkey, too). Boycott all that petroleum your US government buys from SA? How about all the products made in blood, plastic, steel products, and more. Naw, you're happy to keep filling your gas guzzler with gas from SA. But oh no, they're spending money on SC2, god forbid. If you're allowed to support the US government and military, then by every single means, people are allowed to support the Saudi government spending money in SC2. EWC has as much to do with the butcher of Saudi women as US sponsored SC2 tournaments have to do with dead children in Afghanistan killed by the US military. You just don't like the fact that human beings who are ethnically SA are doing this. And you know what? People are supporting them. Last time we had pillars of the community go to Gamers8-Pig, Rotterdam, Lowko, Artosis, Tasteless, Wardii, ZombieGrub, and more. At the end of the day, the people who matter are able to set aside their prejucides and keep SC2 a lively, fun game. As for some other people, forever a stick in the sand of racism.
Sponsorship is pretty fucking different than owning the entire thing and hosting it purely to make your dictatorship that is about slavery and executing gay people to look good. Like these things have something of a scale and Saudis are at like the bottom of that scale together with Russia. The USAF doesnt own the entire tournament, and host it to show that "hey we never kill people". Every bad thing is not the same.
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Northern Ireland24494 Posts
Re hypocrisy there’s a clear difference in a state running something, and an absolute monarchy at that, and an individual or company from a nation that may have committed atrocities doing something.
In the former there’s no plausible way to delineate between what the state perpetrates, because those doing so are the state. In the latter an entity may well have been actively opposed to whatever shit their state perpetrated.
That said the US Air Force sponsorship is pretty fucking gross.
I’d personally take a bit of inconsistency with a heart that’s in the right place anyway, because calls for consistency invariably end up being unworkable and lead to inaction anyway.
Perhaps, to take one example there’s an inordinate focus on Israel/Palestine while other global conflicts go largely under the radar. Including might I add one Saudi is a driver of. But all whataboutism does is diffuse what energy does exist for particular issues into a completely unworkable imposition of caring, and agitating for literally every issue under the sun that people just can’t meet, even with the best of wills
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On May 25 2024 10:38 sidasf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2024 14:11 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Hardly any money is needed to have fun competition. EA NHL '94 and Super Tecmo Bowl have fun competitive scenes with evolving metagames for more than 30 years. In EA NHL '94 there are AI programmers working on the game. If the AI is ever revamped it really won't be an EA game.
There is no "need" for big money. In fact, I'd say money wrecks the fun spirit and makes things too serious.
..... Good lord you cannot be serious. Serral, Clem, Reynor, Hero, Byun, Maru, Dark, Cure, Solar, and more-90% of these players would disappear off the face of the earth if SC2 funding was depleted. Money does not "wreck the spirit". This is an absurd notion. Money draws in players, it pushes players to hone their skills, to play SC2 full time, to spend time on it, to be able to earn a living. Dreamhack drew in over 60k viewers on Twitch only months ago-tournaments inspire people to play SC2, to join it, and don't forget-they allow people to fly in from all over the world to celebrate their love for SC2 and have a good time. People who make a living off SC2 content such as Pig, or pro players, or even thousands of casual fans. There are still hundreds of players that play SC2 because of the money. On top of the aforementioned, say goodbye to players like Elazer, Showtime, Oliveira, Bunny, SHIN, Scarlett, Astrea, and more. And say goodbye to wonderful content creators like Pig, Steadfast and Wardii who earn their living by casting high end tournaments. If you think losing out on saudi funding won't destroy a massive portion of the community and lifeblood you are in for a terrible surprise. Show nested quote +On April 29 2024 05:45 rwala wrote:
Some tools for handling these issues when they pop up in e-sports and other contexts:
1. Ditch the Whataboutism. That other governments and business entities we support commit human rights abuses does not justify the Saudi government's atrocious human rights record. Nor does it particularly matter whether we are being 100% consistent in how we protest or take action by focusing on this one particular bad actor at this moment. Because we think and act with various heuristics and biases, none of us are immune from some amount of hypocrisy and it's better to care inconsistently than be consistently apathetic. Ah yes, "whataboutism", the classic non-argument people use when they get called out on their hypocrisy. Nobody is trying to "justify the Saudi's human rights record", that's an argument you completely spun up yourself. Show nested quote +Nor does it particularly matter whether we are being 100% consistent in how we protest or take action by focusing on this one particular bad actor at this moment Like hell it doesn't. You're joking, right? You don't get to pick which human rights abuse matters and which doesn't. You can't pretend to care about human rights where you are supporting tournaments that are funded by the US which has comitted endless human rights violations. Where are your protests for every single other ESL tournament that is explicitly funded and sponsored by the US military? Are you aware what the US military has done? They have very recently bombed, murdered, and tortured innocent human beings in the middle east. CHILDREN lost their parents. They lost their houses. They were brutally murdered. Almost four hundred THOUSAND innocent Iraqi civilians killed by the same US military sponsoring tournaments.The US government not too long ago sprayed agent orange all over innocent people in Vietnam after invading the country-go spend a few minutes on google to see the horrifying terrifying disfigurements the US military caused in innocent Vietnamese children. What entitles you to think you can wave away these horrific crimes? Guantanamo bay where the US tortured and sexually humiliated people. Endless cruelty. MKULTRA where the US government literally kidnapped and drugged US citizens. US cops continue to relentlessly butcher black men and women. US government imprisons women for trying to get abortions in countless states and territories. You completely ignore all these heinous crimes, and you're happy to support the bloodthirsty US government. But when people want money in SC2 from Saudi Arabia, you lose your mind. Tier A hypocrite without an ounce of awareness. Born bathed and raised in the bathwater of George Bush and Donald Trump. America, fuck yeah! Show nested quote +
3. There are ways to raise these issues beyond boycotts and divestment. Even this thread helps, and I'm sure the Saudi gov't isn't happy that this community is having this convo. These events are actually a great opportunity to remind people that this is a regime that butchers, tortures, and commits many other horrific abuses. In the context of the Olympics, governments sometimes do "diplomatic" boycotts to protest human rights abuses, which essentially is a symbolic boycott in which countries refuse to send government envoys while insisting that players' rights are respected. Don't underestimate the power of these symbolic gestures. After all, the Saudi gov't is doing this precisely because of the symbolic power it can exert by projecting itself in a positive light on an international stage.
Thanks for posting about this and for the lively back-and-forth.
Yes, their government butchers and tortures people, and commits many other horrific abuses, just like the US government does, just like most of the EU do, but people like you seem to think it's okay when it's white countries doing all the butchery. Show nested quote +. After all, the Saudi gov't is doing this precisely because of the symbolic power it can exert by projecting itself in a positive light on an international stage. Wait until you learn what the Olympics is. The US wrote the book on sports washing and are experts in destabilizing entire swathes of countries to protect their own interests, destroying the lives of millions living there in the process. Oh and don't even get me started on how the US government is now literally aiding in the genocide of untold thousands of innocent CHILDREN in Palestine. Same with Armenia! Are you going to be making this same ruckus when we go to Dallas in 2 weeks? If not, then you are virtue signaling and are a tier 1 hypocrite. If you really cared about human rights, you'd stop supporting genocidal dicatatorships like Azerbaijan as they invade Armenia proper to commit ethnic cleansing and even more heinous things I cannot describe her. Who are you kidding, I'm sure you're happy to buy a bunch of nice things for yourself that are from Azerbaijan (and the wonderful genocide denying Turkey, too). Boycott all that petroleum your US government buys from SA? How about all the products made in blood, plastic, steel products, and more. Naw, you're happy to keep filling your gas guzzler with gas from SA. But oh no, they're spending money on SC2, god forbid. If you're allowed to support the US government and military, then by every single means, people are allowed to support the Saudi government spending money in SC2. EWC has as much to do with the butcher of Saudi women as US sponsored SC2 tournaments have to do with dead children in Afghanistan killed by the US military. You just don't like the fact that human beings who are ethnically SA are doing this.
Sorry, since you didn't list every single war crime and atrocity that is currently happening, your post is invalid. You are clearly just virtue signing and care about some issues more than others, which is hypocrisy.
And you know what? People are supporting them. Last time we had pillars of the community go to Gamers8-Pig, Rotterdam, Lowko, Artosis, Tasteless, Wardii, ZombieGrub, and more. At the end of the day, the people who matter are able to set aside their prejucides and keep SC2 a lively, fun game. As for some other people, forever a stick in the sand of racism.
Can we retire that? These people "support them" because it is their job. A job they have in a very unstable and uncertain enviroment. Much like the players, I don't blame the casters for going to these events. But do you really think if you gave them the choice to have the same tournament in Riyad or in *insert any of the usual SC2 cities* they would take Riyad because Saudi-Arabia is so great?
How it looks if people have options? Look at LoL: The Neom-Project wanted to sponsor the european LEC and you know what? The casters threatened to boycott and go on strike should that happen. So eventually Riot pulled out and stopped the idea. But there we talk about one sponsor (even if it is a big one). For Rotti, ZG and co. to pull out of EWC, they would literally walk out of their entire job.
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On May 25 2024 10:38 sidasf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2024 14:11 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Hardly any money is needed to have fun competition. EA NHL '94 and Super Tecmo Bowl have fun competitive scenes with evolving metagames for more than 30 years. In EA NHL '94 there are AI programmers working on the game. If the AI is ever revamped it really won't be an EA game.
There is no "need" for big money. In fact, I'd say money wrecks the fun spirit and makes things too serious.
..... Good lord you cannot be serious. Serral, Clem, Reynor, Hero, Byun, Maru, Dark, Cure, Solar, and more-90% of these players would disappear off the face of the earth if SC2 funding was depleted. Money does not "wreck the spirit". This is an absurd notion. Money draws in players, it pushes players to hone their skills, to play SC2 full time, to spend time on it, to be able to earn a living.
None of this makes the game more fun though. When you take a game too seriously... it ceases being a fun game.
Why is Gen-Z embracing retro gaming? its fun... its simple... it does not require a big time investment.
SC2 is in decline... nothing is going to stop that. And, it is deserving of its declining popularity. No contrived artificial money dump is going to change it.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
Look at LoL: The Neom-Project wanted to sponsor the european LEC and you know what? The casters threatened to boycott and go on strike should that happen. So eventually Riot pulled out and stopped the idea. But there we talk about one sponsor (even if it is a big one). For Rotti, ZG and co. to pull out of EWC, they would literally walk out of their entire job.
“You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”
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On May 28 2024 06:48 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Look at LoL: The Neom-Project wanted to sponsor the european LEC and you know what? The casters threatened to boycott and go on strike should that happen. So eventually Riot pulled out and stopped the idea. But there we talk about one sponsor (even if it is a big one). For Rotti, ZG and co. to pull out of EWC, they would literally walk out of their entire job. “You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”
Darn that is deep ++++++
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France12762 Posts
On May 28 2024 06:48 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Look at LoL: The Neom-Project wanted to sponsor the european LEC and you know what? The casters threatened to boycott and go on strike should that happen. So eventually Riot pulled out and stopped the idea. But there we talk about one sponsor (even if it is a big one). For Rotti, ZG and co. to pull out of EWC, they would literally walk out of their entire job. “You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”
Dunno where it came from originally, but in The Dark Knight from Nolan (with a great Joker performance from Heath Ledger, one of my favorites  ) this quote was particularly relevant.
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Love the idea Saudi is supporting sc2. Making another big tournament feel important
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EPT
