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On April 29 2024 05:45 rwala wrote:
Some tools for handling these issues when they pop up in e-sports and other contexts:
1. Ditch the Whataboutism. That other governments and business entities we support commit human rights abuses does not justify the Saudi government's atrocious human rights record. Nor does it particularly matter whether we are being 100% consistent in how we protest or take action by focusing on this one particular bad actor at this moment. Because we think and act with various heuristics and biases, none of us are immune from some amount of hypocrisy and it's better to care inconsistently than be consistently apathetic.
2. Try not to get triggered if some fans decide they want to boycott the event or take actions denouncing the human rights record of the Saudi regime. This is not a judgement on your personal decision to watch or support the event...treating it as such and reacting harshly smacks of insecurity. Similarly, try not to judge others if they decide they want to watch and support the event. There are almost certainly ways that each and every one of us thinks, talks, or acts that others find a tad questionable, and in my experience preaching less can be helpful.
3. There are ways to raise these issues beyond boycotts and divestment. Even this thread helps, and I'm sure the Saudi gov't isn't happy that this community is having this convo. These events are actually a great opportunity to remind people that this is a regime that butchers, tortures, and commits many other horrific abuses. In the context of the Olympics, governments sometimes do "diplomatic" boycotts to protest human rights abuses, which essentially is a symbolic boycott in which countries refuse to send government envoys while insisting that players' rights are respected. Don't underestimate the power of these symbolic gestures. After all, the Saudi gov't is doing this precisely because of the symbolic power it can exert by projecting itself in a positive light on an international stage.
Thanks for posting about this and for the lively back-and-forth.
You chopped up that criticism like we would a reporter! Nice!
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
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Manahel al-Otaibi, who promoted female empowerment on social media, was arrested under anti-terror laws [and sentenced to 11 years in prison for ‘support’ of women’s rights.]
Her case follows a slew of similar cases in which Saudi women, in particular, have been subjected to draconian sentences for using social media accounts to express themselves. They include women such as Salma al-Shehab, sentenced to 27 years, Fatima al-Shawarbi, sentenced to 30 years, Sukaynah al-Aithan, sentenced to 40 years, and Nourah al-Qahtani, sentenced to 45 years.
This is upsetting and I wish I could do something to oppose this directly.
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Northern Ireland24494 Posts
On May 04 2024 10:28 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:Show nested quote +Manahel al-Otaibi, who promoted female empowerment on social media, was arrested under anti-terror laws [and sentenced to 11 years in prison for ‘support’ of women’s rights.]
Her case follows a slew of similar cases in which Saudi women, in particular, have been subjected to draconian sentences for using social media accounts to express themselves. They include women such as Salma al-Shehab, sentenced to 27 years, Fatima al-Shawarbi, sentenced to 30 years, Sukaynah al-Aithan, sentenced to 40 years, and Nourah al-Qahtani, sentenced to 45 years. This is upsetting and I wish I could do something to opposite this directly.
Saying fuck this noise and boycotting where one can I suppose. One is somewhat pushing aside a tide of indifference and inextricable economic entanglement but hey, gotta start somewhere.
Maybe it’s ’virtue signalling’ or whatever fun new term exists, I’m ok giving this one a mix. I’m ok giving the Saudi hosted football World Cup a miss, hey it’s going to suck for me as a giant fan but we all have our particular lines in the sand
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You forgot the option
"It's wrong and SC2 doesn't even survive with it"
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Sorry for a late reply, I meant to drop right after my time out by my mod.
My one sentence stance about the OP topic that is being voted originally.
I don't give a shit who provides money to ESPORT, I am here for the GAME STARCRAFT FOR LIFE. I was born to play STARCRAFT and DIE TRYING to play STARCRAFT.
I already acted out (HIGH SCHOOL DROP OUT GRADE 10 or 11, US high school in 2007). To play STARCRAFT FULL TIME.
I hide myself under a bridge from my old apartment when I was 14, just to make sure my parents went to work, "GOT IN CAR, DRIVE AWAY" I go right back to my apartment back then, OPEN THE ONLY LAPTOP belongs to my DAD, "HIDDEN by me first thing I woke up or didn't sleep doesn't matter in the morning" TO KEEP playing STARCRAFT.
And first week I arrived USA, in WKU in Western Kentucky of USA, LMAO
I SNEAKED OUT walked 2 hour without knowing a SINGLE "ENGLISH WORD" I got to even learn when my family moved from CHINA > USA, 1st fucking week. I solo walked after 11:30pm or so when the whole HOUSE went to sleep,my bed was in a walk out basement, so I PRETEND I WENT TO SLEEP WHENEVER I got cut off from my dad's laptop. I carried my CHINESE EDITION REAL BLIZZARD EDITION StarCraft CD to WKU public library that was meant to open for students that were going through college there. LMAO
I went in there like it was free NET CAFE on a random joint in CHINA since 1998 was a thing.
1 way walk distance 2 hour. I went every night, and walk back every night 2 hour. POLICE GIVE me odd look due to my age solo walking in dark on street oF KENTUCKY! 2002 the year was then. LOL I was 14, my dudes.
Do you really think I give a shit about "MORALITY" when it comes to playing or watching STARCRAFT?
干死黄旭东
XiaoSe knows me personally for a god damn reason, LOL.
I had met TASTELESS 2007, he DON"T REMEMBER me, but he was at WCT 2007 WOLRD FINAL SEATTLE back stage for w/e TV STATION , I was the "PJ - WCG 2007 WOLRD #2 after STOCK #! " 's Chinese/English translator.
I got stupid RUSSIAN TV station shot at me in THE NEWS ROOM for PJ's interview. I decided Russian dialect "ENGLISH" is the "HARDEST" to understand for me. not INDIAN ENLGISH by most Chinese speaker.
okay, long story short, I already done ESPORT in front of the COLLECTIVE 2007 WCG Seattle crowd on the stage with a press badge represented "SINA.com", I managed to hack my hand on after arriving at the door DAY1 as a first round regional LOSER WCG USA in somewhere MID-WEST. my first round opponent in 2007 was FUCKING REKRUL[PG]. That is my god damn tournament "LUCK" defined "CONSTANT" any time I play "ESPORT", "DESTINY, FATE"
1st rounder loser chronical enjoyer. ADDICTED.
That's how much ESPORT matters to me, and the rest of the BS I listed out by detail in my previous responses.
Sorry guys.
Many of you only heard Boxer/Yellow plays pro poker. But I know every single PRO that went into that POKER shit, and I know these people personally, if I want to meet up with BOXER yellow, I just need to ask my friend Lin, lmao. I know where to meet BOXER /YELLOW 24/7, and I can get a personal time with BOXER 100%.
"I don't care" -> true answer stands true, and vote was fucking perfect. I just hijacked the thread for a moment.
I am back to close the loop i throw everyone for. Thank you for your time.
By the way I am Chinese, 36, currently LEGALIZED ALIEN of USA.
I also donated a stupid design "ALGORITHM, STRAT" for free to SOCOM(GOOGLE SOCOM USA). LOL.
How to "SCOUT bad actor"
Secret recipe in 2015 at DAYTON OHIO AIR FORCE BASE.
SO I literally am a virtual SPECIAL FORCE SNIPER that truly did work for US Special Force.
My service was free, time of service done, NATIONALITY: PRC CHINA.
You guys think I give a shit WHO shoots who matters?
CCP ? FREEDOM?
GO F yourself guys. I am hallucinating everything into your mind. SO IDRA rage quit was a PASTENCE REALITY HUK.
HUK HUK HUK USA USA USA USA CCP CCP CCP.
ONE WORLD ONE PIECE, I don't give a shit. thank you for listening to my life's true STORY.
Bye.
PS: LinkedIn Users -> PurE)Rabbit-SF redirected to this page: HAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHHAHAA, now pay me a 1b $.
I accept all possible transferable $ including bitcoin, and shit coin.
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干死黄旭东，死都是中国人。
干死美帝国主义，打到强权！解放全人类！
USA USA USA USA
Please understand what these "BIT of INFORMATION" that was stored in a DATABASE in form of 0/1 before you reply.
Thank you.
And you are welcome to be yourself, and thank everyone accidentally discovered a truth. I cheered when 911 happened. And my favorited number to dial "ON ACCIDENT" is 911. I am chronical 911 enjoyer.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 22 2024 03:53 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:
Sorry for a late reply, I meant to drop right after my time out by my mod.
My one sentence stance about the OP topic that is being voted originally.
I don't give a shit who provides money to ESPORT, I am here for the GAME STARCRAFT FOR LIFE. I was born to play STARCRAFT and DIE TRYING to play STARCRAFT.
I already acted out (HIGH SCHOOL DROP OUT GRADE 10 or 11, US high school in 2007). To play STARCRAFT FULL TIME.
I hide myself under a bridge from my old apartment when I was 14, just to make sure my parents went to work, "GOT IN CAR, DRIVE AWAY" I go right back to my apartment back then, OPEN THE ONLY LAPTOP belongs to my DAD, "HIDDEN by me first thing I woke up or didn't sleep doesn't matter in the morning" TO KEEP playing STARCRAFT.
And first week I arrived USA, in WKU in Western Kentucky of USA, LMAO
I SNEAKED OUT walked 2 hour without knowing a SINGLE "ENGLISH WORD" I got to even learn when my family moved from CHINA > USA, 1st fucking week. I solo walked after 11:30pm or so when the whole HOUSE went to sleep,my bed was in a walk out basement, so I PRETEND I WENT TO SLEEP WHENEVER I got cut off from my dad's laptop. I carried my CHINESE EDITION REAL BLIZZARD EDITION StarCraft CD to WKU public library that was meant to open for students that were going through college there. LMAO
I went in there like it was free NET CAFE on a random joint in CHINA since 1998 was a thing.
1 way walk distance 2 hour. I went every night, and walk back every night 2 hour. POLICE GIVE me odd look due to my age solo walking in dark on street oF KENTUCKY! 2002 the year was then. LOL I was 14, my dudes.
Do you really think I give a shit about "MORALITY" when it comes to playing or watching STARCRAFT?
干死黄旭东
XiaoSe knows me personally for a god damn reason, LOL.
I had met TASTELESS 2007, he DON"T REMEMBER me, but he was at WCT 2007 WOLRD FINAL SEATTLE back stage for w/e TV STATION , I was the "PJ - WCG 2007 WOLRD #2 after STOCK #! " 's Chinese/English translator.
I got stupid RUSSIAN TV station shot at me in THE NEWS ROOM for PJ's interview. I decided Russian dialect "ENGLISH" is the "HARDEST" to understand for me. not INDIAN ENLGISH by most Chinese speaker.
okay, long story short, I already done ESPORT in front of the COLLECTIVE 2007 WCG Seattle crowd on the stage with a press badge represented "SINA.com", I managed to hack my hand on after arriving at the door DAY1 as a first round regional LOSER WCG USA in somewhere MID-WEST. my first round opponent in 2007 was FUCKING REKRUL[PG]. That is my god damn tournament "LUCK" defined "CONSTANT" any time I play "ESPORT", "DESTINY, FATE"
1st rounder loser chronical enjoyer. ADDICTED.
That's how much ESPORT matters to me, and the rest of the BS I listed out by detail in my previous responses.
Sorry guys.
Many of you only heard Boxer/Yellow plays pro poker. But I know every single PRO that went into that POKER shit, and I know these people personally, if I want to meet up with BOXER yellow, I just need to ask my friend Lin, lmao. I know where to meet BOXER /YELLOW 24/7, and I can get a personal time with BOXER 100%.
"I don't care" -> true answer stands true, and vote was fucking perfect. I just hijacked the thread for a moment.
I am back to close the loop i throw everyone for. Thank you for your time.
By the way I am Chinese, 36, currently LEGALIZED ALIEN of USA.
I also donated a stupid design "ALGORITHM, STRAT" for free to SOCOM(GOOGLE SOCOM USA). LOL.
How to "SCOUT bad actor"
Secret recipe in 2015 at DAYTON OHIO AIR FORCE BASE.
SO I literally am a virtual SPECIAL FORCE SNIPER that truly did work for US Special Force.
My service was free, time of service done, NATIONALITY: PRC CHINA.
You guys think I give a shit WHO shoots who matters?
CCP ? FREEDOM?
GO F yourself guys. I am hallucinating everything into your mind. SO IDRA rage quit was a PASTENCE REALITY HUK.
HUK HUK HUK USA USA USA USA CCP CCP CCP.
ONE WORLD ONE PIECE, I don't give a shit. thank you for listening to my life's true STORY.
Bye.
PS: LinkedIn Users -> PurE)Rabbit-SF redirected to this page: HAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHHAHAA, now pay me a 1b $.
I accept all possible transferable $ including bitcoin, and shit coin.
Bro if you have the chance please look for healthcare. This isn't a joke, the stuff you are typing is genuinely insane.
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Northern Ireland24494 Posts
Are you OK dude? Said in all seriousness
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Ignoring the troll, dude on drugs and/or badly written bot (I really can't decide what is the most fitting here):
There is currently an interesting debate in the Handball-world, since Saudi-Arabia apparently decided to "nope" out of it. Saudis don't want to host the World Cup and they gave up the Club World Cup (isn't it funny that no matter the sport, all these "Club World Cups" always seem to be in SA, Qatar or China? Weird...)
So some people are upset about that, thinking it is a bad sign for Handball as a sport, that it is not globally appealing enough for the Saudis to sink money in. Which is extra-bad considering that the Handball World Cup actually allows mercenaries (you are not barred to play for other nations like in Football, you just need to wait out some time...I think two or three years?).
On the other hand, for example the President of the German Handball Association, isn't really fazed by it, pointing out the hypocracy that some people constantly blame Saudi-Arabia, but still hunt their money like crazy.
Considering how "small" Handball is and globally not-attractive compared to other sports, I think it is an interesting comparison to SC2.
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France12762 Posts
On May 22 2024 04:37 Balnazza wrote:
Ignoring the troll, dude on drugs and/or badly written bot (I really can't decide what is the most fitting here):
There is currently an interesting debate in the Handball-world, since Saudi-Arabia apparently decided to "nope" out of it. Saudis don't want to host the World Cup and they gave up the Club World Cup (isn't it funny that no matter the sport, all these "Club World Cups" always seem to be in SA, Qatar or China? Weird...)
So some people are upset about that, thinking it is a bad sign for Handball as a sport, that it is not globally appealing enough for the Saudis to sink money in. Which is extra-bad considering that the Handball World Cup actually allows mercenaries (you are not barred to play for other nations like in Football, you just need to wait out some time...I think two or three years?).
On the other hand, for example the President of the German Handball Association, isn't really fazed by it, pointing out the hypocracy that some people constantly blame Saudi-Arabia, but still hunt their money like crazy.
Considering how "small" Handball is and globally not-attractive compared to other sports, I think it is an interesting comparison to SC2.
That is an interesting debate indeed.
I think that "accepting" their money isn't inherently wrong even if you don't like what SA are doing to their people etc, as someone from another country. It can actually be an opportunity to discuss with them (for those who negociate these sort of things obviously, not us random sc2 viewers or handball or another casual spectators, so in our case ESL) about their "politics" and what the people of our country don't "like" about SA. It is their choice to listen to it or not anyways.
edit: and just in case, if the guy above (PurE)Rabbit-SF) isn't trolling / a bot, you should try to seek help and/or get some rest, because your text seems to indicate a rather precarious mental health at the moment. That doesn't mean it won't get better, but currently what (and especially how) you are writing is a bit worrying. If you are posting you probably have access to the internet, and afaik you can find free hotline for mental health rather easily on google or somewhere else, if it's too difficult to go in person / too expensive.
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Northern Ireland24494 Posts
On May 22 2024 04:37 Balnazza wrote:
Ignoring the troll, dude on drugs and/or badly written bot (I really can't decide what is the most fitting here):
There is currently an interesting debate in the Handball-world, since Saudi-Arabia apparently decided to "nope" out of it. Saudis don't want to host the World Cup and they gave up the Club World Cup (isn't it funny that no matter the sport, all these "Club World Cups" always seem to be in SA, Qatar or China? Weird...)
So some people are upset about that, thinking it is a bad sign for Handball as a sport, that it is not globally appealing enough for the Saudis to sink money in. Which is extra-bad considering that the Handball World Cup actually allows mercenaries (you are not barred to play for other nations like in Football, you just need to wait out some time...I think two or three years?).
On the other hand, for example the President of the German Handball Association, isn't really fazed by it, pointing out the hypocracy that some people constantly blame Saudi-Arabia, but still hunt their money like crazy.
Considering how "small" Handball is and globally not-attractive compared to other sports, I think it is an interesting comparison to SC2.
As far as I gather handball is vaguely comparable to snooker, it’s quite big in a few countries, but it’s not really a global sport.
Snooker now has its Riyadh Masters, with some murmurings of the World Championship ending up in Saudi Arabia, its historic home’s contract being up for renewal and the venue needing some work etc.
Players are a bit split, but this pays their bills after all.
Fans? It just makes very little sense to hold the World Championship there. It’s only a relatively mainstream sport in the UK and Ireland, with some interest in mainland Europe, the odd Canadian or Australian pro and has quite a decent presence in China which is its only real growth market.
If there was a Saudi interest in growing the sport, they’d fund the sport itself and not Saudi-based events specifically. Aside from ethical concerns, this is also a big basis of my criticism for these forays into SC2. They’re actually not that structurally beneficial to the overall scene and a vanity project as much as anything else. I also don’t feel SC2 will actually last long as a showpiece event on this Saudi circuit either.
I’m unsure about the handball example, had they arranged to hold these events and pulled out subsequently or what? Interested to hear a bit more!
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Thank you everyone, I got physically timed out by 911, since 4/30 Boston EST, IN and out of a MENTAL HOSPITAL, just today, 5/21/2024. Thank you everyone for listening to my rant.
Thank you.
My vote "I don'care"
I have nothing to say anymore.
Thank you everyone, for everyone, MOD + SMURF ALL LIKE, thank you all. See you guys another day when I am "more normal" 
But I was here on my join date for the game, so Really, trust me, I don't care.
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On May 22 2024 04:37 Balnazza wrote:
Ignoring the troll, dude on drugs and/or badly written bot (I really can't decide what is the most fitting here):
There is currently an interesting debate in the Handball-world, since Saudi-Arabia apparently decided to "nope" out of it. Saudis don't want to host the World Cup and they gave up the Club World Cup (isn't it funny that no matter the sport, all these "Club World Cups" always seem to be in SA, Qatar or China? Weird...)
So some people are upset about that, thinking it is a bad sign for Handball as a sport, that it is not globally appealing enough for the Saudis to sink money in. Which is extra-bad considering that the Handball World Cup actually allows mercenaries (you are not barred to play for other nations like in Football, you just need to wait out some time...I think two or three years?).
On the other hand, for example the President of the German Handball Association, isn't really fazed by it, pointing out the hypocracy that some people constantly blame Saudi-Arabia, but still hunt their money like crazy.
Considering how "small" Handball is and globally not-attractive compared to other sports, I think it is an interesting comparison to SC2.
Handball has public interest for the womens sport. Cant have that in the handchopper events.
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On May 22 2024 05:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2024 04:37 Balnazza wrote:
Ignoring the troll, dude on drugs and/or badly written bot (I really can't decide what is the most fitting here):
There is currently an interesting debate in the Handball-world, since Saudi-Arabia apparently decided to "nope" out of it. Saudis don't want to host the World Cup and they gave up the Club World Cup (isn't it funny that no matter the sport, all these "Club World Cups" always seem to be in SA, Qatar or China? Weird...)
So some people are upset about that, thinking it is a bad sign for Handball as a sport, that it is not globally appealing enough for the Saudis to sink money in. Which is extra-bad considering that the Handball World Cup actually allows mercenaries (you are not barred to play for other nations like in Football, you just need to wait out some time...I think two or three years?).
On the other hand, for example the President of the German Handball Association, isn't really fazed by it, pointing out the hypocracy that some people constantly blame Saudi-Arabia, but still hunt their money like crazy.
Considering how "small" Handball is and globally not-attractive compared to other sports, I think it is an interesting comparison to SC2. As far as I gather handball is vaguely comparable to snooker, it’s quite big in a few countries, but it’s not really a global sport. Snooker now has its Riyadh Masters, with some murmurings of the World Championship ending up in Saudi Arabia, its historic home’s contract being up for renewal and the venue needing some work etc. Players are a bit split, but this pays their bills after all. Fans? It just makes very little sense to hold the World Championship there. It’s only a relatively mainstream sport in the UK and Ireland, with some interest in mainland Europe, the odd Canadian or Australian pro and has quite a decent presence in China which is its only real growth market. If there was a Saudi interest in growing the sport, they’d fund the sport itself and not Saudi-based events specifically. Aside from ethical concerns, this is also a big basis of my criticism for these forays into SC2. They’re actually not that structurally beneficial to the overall scene and a vanity project as much as anything else. I also don’t feel SC2 will actually last long as a showpiece event on this Saudi circuit either. I’m unsure about the handball example, had they arranged to hold these events and pulled out subsequently or what? Interested to hear a bit more!
First of all: The comparison between Handball and SC2 isn't exactly perfect, just to make that clear. For one, Handball doesn't need Saudi-Arabia. However, if SA/ESL would pull the plug tomorrow, I'm sure this thing would go south like Sherman.
Handball is indeed not a global sport. It is mostly big in Europe, but also not everywhere. The main bastions are Scandinavia, the Balkan and some select middle/west european nations, mostly Germany, France and Spain. it totally skipped Italy and mostly skipped the BeNeLux and Alpine region (not that it isn't played at all there, but if you compare it to Football for example, it is laughable).
Good indicator could be to look at the World Championship (played every two year, so it can alternate with the European Championship): Not only are all World Champions from Europe (I guess you can make a case for the Soviet Union...maybe?), but very rarely does it even leave Europe. For example, in this millenium only two tournaments (Qatar and Egypt) have been outside of Europe.
But as it goes with Sportswashing, it is still a popular sport in Europe (second biggest sport in Germany for example), so Qatar and SA wanted in. Qatar hosted the WC and even bought together a national team (as mentioned, in Handball players aren't locked indefinetly for one nation) and Saudi-Arabia bought the Club World Club for five tournaments (2019-2023). That treaty ended and even though the IHF (Handball FIFA) wanted to continue, SA declined. Saudi-Arabia also was planning to either host the World Cup 2029 or 2031, which they now stopped pursuing aswell.
As mentioned, this doesn't bring a huge impact. Handball won't collaps because of it. But the reaction to that were interesting, especially considering in how many sports SA is investing and trying to get tournaments. But some people also mentioned (and that is were it might come back to Esports and SC2, sorry for the excursion) how it is frightening that apparently "Growth in Sports" is so much linked with arabian investors, be it SA, Qatar or the UAE. Apparently, if they don't throw in money, more and more sports think they can't grow anymore.
Which for me raises two points:
1)Maybe a sport doesn't need to grow infinitely? Just a random-ass thought...
2)What happens when SA (or Qatar, China, whoever) throws in the money, you build your entire sport around it and suddenly they go out? How big will the collaps be?
Which reminds me, as an interesting addition:
The EWC Foundation recently presented a program in which 30 Esports teams/orgs are joined in. These teams don't get invites, but they get money from the Foundation, in exchange for promoting the EWC, though it is unclear how exactly that works or about how much money we talk.
But it must be quite the deal, because nearly every big Esports organisation is in that deal. T1, Liquid, G2, fnatic....it's quite the collection, missing only a few bigger names (MOUZ for example).
Here is the Full list/news on HLTV
So I come back to my earlier point: What happens to Esports if SA and co. dig their claws deep into the scene...and then leave?
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France12762 Posts
On May 22 2024 06:06 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote:Thank you everyone, I got physically timed out by 911, since 4/30 Boston EST, IN and out of a MENTAL HOSPITAL, just today, 5/21/2024. Thank you everyone for listening to my rant. Thank you. My vote "I don'care" I have nothing to say anymore. Thank you everyone, for everyone, MOD + SMURF ALL LIKE, thank you all. See you guys another day when I am "more normal" But I was here on my join date for the game, so Really, trust me, I don't care.
Thanks for the TL+ gift. Since I received a pm for it, at first I thought I was banned once again, but it was a rather pleasant surprise instead. I guess all of those bans gave me PTSD 
@Balnazza: I think it’s the other way around for SA at least. It’s not just that Europe needs their money for football or whatever. It’s SA that needs something after « oil ». They don’t sportwash with tons of money just for fun, they actually need a way out of petrol/oil if they want to grow as a country.
They have the money, but not many trained workers / educated people in the sports / esports they invest in, so that’s why they need people with business knowledge and education (afaik, my source could be wrong, I don’t know much about SA myself)
For UAE, Qatar etc. I don’t know anything (I only know Qatar sponsors Paris Saint Germain the French football squad for the city of Paris)
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Northern Ireland24494 Posts
On May 22 2024 07:10 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2024 05:05 WombaT wrote:On May 22 2024 04:37 Balnazza wrote:
Ignoring the troll, dude on drugs and/or badly written bot (I really can't decide what is the most fitting here):
There is currently an interesting debate in the Handball-world, since Saudi-Arabia apparently decided to "nope" out of it. Saudis don't want to host the World Cup and they gave up the Club World Cup (isn't it funny that no matter the sport, all these "Club World Cups" always seem to be in SA, Qatar or China? Weird...)
So some people are upset about that, thinking it is a bad sign for Handball as a sport, that it is not globally appealing enough for the Saudis to sink money in. Which is extra-bad considering that the Handball World Cup actually allows mercenaries (you are not barred to play for other nations like in Football, you just need to wait out some time...I think two or three years?).
On the other hand, for example the President of the German Handball Association, isn't really fazed by it, pointing out the hypocracy that some people constantly blame Saudi-Arabia, but still hunt their money like crazy.
Considering how "small" Handball is and globally not-attractive compared to other sports, I think it is an interesting comparison to SC2. As far as I gather handball is vaguely comparable to snooker, it’s quite big in a few countries, but it’s not really a global sport. Snooker now has its Riyadh Masters, with some murmurings of the World Championship ending up in Saudi Arabia, its historic home’s contract being up for renewal and the venue needing some work etc. Players are a bit split, but this pays their bills after all. Fans? It just makes very little sense to hold the World Championship there. It’s only a relatively mainstream sport in the UK and Ireland, with some interest in mainland Europe, the odd Canadian or Australian pro and has quite a decent presence in China which is its only real growth market. If there was a Saudi interest in growing the sport, they’d fund the sport itself and not Saudi-based events specifically. Aside from ethical concerns, this is also a big basis of my criticism for these forays into SC2. They’re actually not that structurally beneficial to the overall scene and a vanity project as much as anything else. I also don’t feel SC2 will actually last long as a showpiece event on this Saudi circuit either. I’m unsure about the handball example, had they arranged to hold these events and pulled out subsequently or what? Interested to hear a bit more! First of all: The comparison between Handball and SC2 isn't exactly perfect, just to make that clear. For one, Handball doesn't need Saudi-Arabia. However, if SA/ESL would pull the plug tomorrow, I'm sure this thing would go south like Sherman. Handball is indeed not a global sport. It is mostly big in Europe, but also not everywhere. The main bastions are Scandinavia, the Balkan and some select middle/west european nations, mostly Germany, France and Spain. it totally skipped Italy and mostly skipped the BeNeLux and Alpine region (not that it isn't played at all there, but if you compare it to Football for example, it is laughable). Good indicator could be to look at the World Championship (played every two year, so it can alternate with the European Championship): Not only are all World Champions from Europe (I guess you can make a case for the Soviet Union...maybe?), but very rarely does it even leave Europe. For example, in this millenium only two tournaments (Qatar and Egypt) have been outside of Europe. But as it goes with Sportswashing, it is still a popular sport in Europe (second biggest sport in Germany for example), so Qatar and SA wanted in. Qatar hosted the WC and even bought together a national team (as mentioned, in Handball players aren't locked indefinetly for one nation) and Saudi-Arabia bought the Club World Club for five tournaments (2019-2023). That treaty ended and even though the IHF (Handball FIFA) wanted to continue, SA declined. Saudi-Arabia also was planning to either host the World Cup 2029 or 2031, which they now stopped pursuing aswell. As mentioned, this doesn't bring a huge impact. Handball won't collaps because of it. But the reaction to that were interesting, especially considering in how many sports SA is investing and trying to get tournaments. But some people also mentioned (and that is were it might come back to Esports and SC2, sorry for the excursion) how it is frightening that apparently "Growth in Sports" is so much linked with arabian investors, be it SA, Qatar or the UAE. Apparently, if they don't throw in money, more and more sports think they can't grow anymore. Which for me raises two points: 1)Maybe a sport doesn't need to grow infinitely? Just a random-ass thought... 2)What happens when SA (or Qatar, China, whoever) throws in the money, you build your entire sport around it and suddenly they go out? How big will the collaps be? Which reminds me, as an interesting addition: The EWC Foundation recently presented a program in which 30 Esports teams/orgs are joined in. These teams don't get invites, but they get money from the Foundation, in exchange for promoting the EWC, though it is unclear how exactly that works or about how much money we talk. But it must be quite the deal, because nearly every big Esports organisation is in that deal. T1, Liquid, G2, fnatic....it's quite the collection, missing only a few bigger names (MOUZ for example). Here is the Full list/news on HLTVSo I come back to my earlier point: What happens to Esports if SA and co. dig their claws deep into the scene...and then leave?
Thanks for the interesting insight re handball!
As per your numbered points:
1) Such is capitalism I guess, we’re not allowed to have stable equilibriums or be ‘big enough’ I suppose.
2) It’s a real problem for SC2 because over time the majority of the circuit became very centralised via Blizzard in partnership with ESL, and then ESL alone.
I’m unsure how it works in other games outside of smaller scenes like WC3 where it’s a bit smaller but more grass roots. With SC2 it feels if the rug is pulled it’ll just kill the scene as we know it, although eventually something may spring up in its place it would take some time for the wider community and other stakeholders to put in a new structure. I think it could be done, but not particularly smoothly, and certainly not immediately.
I think part of the reason we’re seeing this investment in eSports particularly is that it’s generally a younger audience for image laundering, one that isn’t necessarily reached by other means.
Two, and quite an important one IMO is that eSports is a financial sinkhole that regular ‘we want to make money’ investors have been burnt by on numerous occasions. Which leaves a gap to be the sugar daddies that few want to, or can fill. Somebody like Shopify, with a head honcho who likes StarCraft can invest something sure, but not anything like funding a whole multi-game circuit
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Hardly any money is needed to have fun competition. EA NHL '94 and Super Tecmo Bowl have fun competitive scenes with evolving metagames for more than 30 years. In EA NHL '94 there are AI programmers working on the game. If the AI is ever revamped it really won't be an EA game.
There is no "need" for big money. In fact, I'd say money wrecks the fun spirit and makes things too serious.
This doesn't just apply to Starcraft eSports. big money Top level pro hockey now sucks. big money Top level baseball is garbage. The huge amount of money behind those sports makes them have zero resemblance to the games played as a child and teenager. In baseball, every player weighs 225+ lbs and they are all 6'4" and up. The pitchers all throw at 99 MPH and are 6'6" tall. They get arm operations every 2 years because they are throwing pitchers that wreck their arms. In big money baseball... arm operations are a big part of the game. The sheer size of the pitchers has thrown off the balance of the primary interaction between hitter and pitcher. The pitchers are so tall and throw so hard and so steeply downhill that it forces every at bat into either a walk, or a strike out or a home run. its boring. In hockey the players are so big using $300 hockey sticks no longer made of wood that there is no room on the ice to do anything. Hockey is dying in Canada... and deservedly so. Its being strangled by the emphasis on money.
Top level, amateur hockey and baseball are still great fun. The games still resemble what they were 30,40,50+ years ago.
Wardi's events are more fun than these big money SC2 events. And, I'll bet you they are also more fair.
I've read various posts over the years where people want to boycott Saudi Arabia. I suggest do better than that. Give money to Wardi or other small local organizers who put on cool events.
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On May 22 2024 05:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2024 04:37 Balnazza wrote:
Ignoring the troll, dude on drugs and/or badly written bot (I really can't decide what is the most fitting here):
There is currently an interesting debate in the Handball-world, since Saudi-Arabia apparently decided to "nope" out of it. Saudis don't want to host the World Cup and they gave up the Club World Cup (isn't it funny that no matter the sport, all these "Club World Cups" always seem to be in SA, Qatar or China? Weird...)
So some people are upset about that, thinking it is a bad sign for Handball as a sport, that it is not globally appealing enough for the Saudis to sink money in. Which is extra-bad considering that the Handball World Cup actually allows mercenaries (you are not barred to play for other nations like in Football, you just need to wait out some time...I think two or three years?).
On the other hand, for example the President of the German Handball Association, isn't really fazed by it, pointing out the hypocracy that some people constantly blame Saudi-Arabia, but still hunt their money like crazy.
Considering how "small" Handball is and globally not-attractive compared to other sports, I think it is an interesting comparison to SC2. As far as I gather handball is vaguely comparable to snooker, it’s quite big in a few countries, but it’s not really a global sport. Snooker now has its Riyadh Masters, with some murmurings of the World Championship ending up in Saudi Arabia, its historic home’s contract being up for renewal and the venue needing some work etc. Players are a bit split, but this pays their bills after all. Fans? It just makes very little sense to hold the World Championship there. It’s only a relatively mainstream sport in the UK and Ireland, with some interest in mainland Europe, the odd Canadian or Australian pro and has quite a decent presence in China which is its only real growth market. If there was a Saudi interest in growing the sport, they’d fund the sport itself and not Saudi-based events specifically. Aside from ethical concerns, this is also a big basis of my criticism for these forays into SC2. They’re actually not that structurally beneficial to the overall scene and a vanity project as much as anything else. I also don’t feel SC2 will actually last long as a showpiece event on this Saudi circuit either. I’m unsure about the handball example, had they arranged to hold these events and pulled out subsequently or what? Interested to hear a bit more!
I remember one world cup was in Katar (Google says 2015) and the Katari bought together a mercenary team of old stars from other nations and actually did quite well (2nd place overall) and it all seemed like handball would be the new shiny toy for Arabian oil money. 10 years later oil money pulled out and is gone and the sport is off worse because it was calculating with that money.
EDIT @JimmyJ
Hockey is dying in Canada? That can't be true can it?
I've noticed a general decrease for winter sports in Europe but mostly because climate changes make it more and more expensive to go skiing for example but Hockey seems like the exception here because everyone can have a rink everywhere I guess.
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Northern Ireland24494 Posts
On May 22 2024 16:29 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2024 05:05 WombaT wrote:On May 22 2024 04:37 Balnazza wrote:
Ignoring the troll, dude on drugs and/or badly written bot (I really can't decide what is the most fitting here):
There is currently an interesting debate in the Handball-world, since Saudi-Arabia apparently decided to "nope" out of it. Saudis don't want to host the World Cup and they gave up the Club World Cup (isn't it funny that no matter the sport, all these "Club World Cups" always seem to be in SA, Qatar or China? Weird...)
So some people are upset about that, thinking it is a bad sign for Handball as a sport, that it is not globally appealing enough for the Saudis to sink money in. Which is extra-bad considering that the Handball World Cup actually allows mercenaries (you are not barred to play for other nations like in Football, you just need to wait out some time...I think two or three years?).
On the other hand, for example the President of the German Handball Association, isn't really fazed by it, pointing out the hypocracy that some people constantly blame Saudi-Arabia, but still hunt their money like crazy.
Considering how "small" Handball is and globally not-attractive compared to other sports, I think it is an interesting comparison to SC2. As far as I gather handball is vaguely comparable to snooker, it’s quite big in a few countries, but it’s not really a global sport. Snooker now has its Riyadh Masters, with some murmurings of the World Championship ending up in Saudi Arabia, its historic home’s contract being up for renewal and the venue needing some work etc. Players are a bit split, but this pays their bills after all. Fans? It just makes very little sense to hold the World Championship there. It’s only a relatively mainstream sport in the UK and Ireland, with some interest in mainland Europe, the odd Canadian or Australian pro and has quite a decent presence in China which is its only real growth market. If there was a Saudi interest in growing the sport, they’d fund the sport itself and not Saudi-based events specifically. Aside from ethical concerns, this is also a big basis of my criticism for these forays into SC2. They’re actually not that structurally beneficial to the overall scene and a vanity project as much as anything else. I also don’t feel SC2 will actually last long as a showpiece event on this Saudi circuit either. I’m unsure about the handball example, had they arranged to hold these events and pulled out subsequently or what? Interested to hear a bit more! I remember one world cup was in Katar (Google says 2015) and the Katari bought together a mercenary team of old stars from other nations and actually did quite well (2nd place overall) and it all seemed like handball would be the new shiny toy for Arabian oil money. 10 years later oil money pulled out and is gone and the sport is off worse because it was calculating with that money. EDIT @JimmyJ Hockey is dying in Canada? That can't be true can it? I've noticed a general decrease for winter sports in Europe but mostly because climate changes make it more and more expensive to go skiing for example but Hockey seems like the exception here because everyone can have a rink everywhere I guess.
That just sounds bloody awful. Is the World Cup vaguely equivalent in Handball to the football one?
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EPT
