|
I think Hydras haven't been utilized to a great extent as defensive units (stopping drops/etc). I normally use Hydras in these situations:
Cliff harass on LT type maps (Which seem to pretty much have disappeared) Close position Overlord creep highway Hydra pushes against toss/sometimes terran Pure Hydra/Ling vs mass thors Also they make a great combination with Broodlords vs terran OR protoss in just about any unit composition.
I find they have their uses right now in the game - but they're just too damn expensive and require too much of a commitment. I think getting rid of the hydra den/roach warren and merging them into one structure - and just requiring lair for hydras would be a step in the right direction.
|
|
The problem with hydra is that they are so volatile. They are extremely good against anything protoss but colossus and then extremely bad vs colossus. This makes the match up super strange in terms of unit composition because the match up swings back and forth so frequently. Maybe this is how blizzard wants the pvz match up though because muta-pheonix can be pretty swingy.
Anyway, I think the advantage of the hydra is in battles of attrition where colossus number can be lowered and then with half hydra half roach reinforcements zerg can wreck face before colossus numbers get too high.
|
Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed.
|
The speed seems like kind of a weird point I agree, it is only usually relevant at least in a pvz sense if they are caught out of position and behind on units. I think one of the real issues is the stupid range upgrade. What a lame upgrade, I mean honestly would they have come up with something more boring or less unique. It isn't that the upgrade is bad, the point is that they are basically a bland damage dealer that should have some more flavor.
|
On March 12 2011 01:55 Raygun wrote: Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed. Hydra: they move as fast as Immortals, sentries, ghost. period. Zealot have an upgrade, Marauder Marine have stim pack, colossi can walk off and down cliff which is a pretty good buff to its mobility
Immortal = heavy and strong units. Sentries = caster. ghost = caster.
There is no justification to hydra's speed off creep, if you consider their shitty HP, their cost, their tier tech.
|
On March 12 2011 01:55 Raygun wrote: Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed.
Because it's an incredibly fragile unit, which makes you want to do quick counterattacks, harassment, and micro with it. But that's impossible without offcreep movement speed.
Zealots have charge, MM has stim, (roaches are faster so I don't why you brought that up). All those units have lots of fun micro-opportunities as well.
Consider the protoss deathball. It has colossus and gate units and maybe void rays. It cannot separate, because the Colossus is so important to help the protoss deathball. Now consider the zerg equivalent: Roach/Hydra/(Corruptor). It ALSO cannot separate, because the Hydra is so important and fragile just like the colossus. Yet the Protoss Deathball will dominate the Zerg Deathball.
If that's the case, then the zerg army should have a mobility advantage over the protoss deathball, but this isn't the case. If Hydras were faster (or colossus were slower), the zerg would have way more options when dealing with the protoss deathball.
|
On March 12 2011 01:55 Raygun wrote: Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed.
Compared to all other zerg units they are painfully slow, zerg works by outmanuvering their opponent. Hydras mean that you can't do that anymore off of creep and need to go toe to toe with the opponents army which is normally a losing situation for zerg.
|
On March 11 2011 21:28 Tschis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 09:39 ChefStarCraft wrote: Hydras can be viable in zvst, Using them with broodlords and fungal growth, has proven to be very strong.
This is just my opinion Yeah, except you'll need thousands of gas to afford hydras + upgrades + infestors + broodlords //tx Zerg players have no objections to spending thousands of gas on "throw away Banelings" and then send them into tank lines to try and get those stimming Marines who are running away ...
The mobility isnt really an issue if people start using the Hydra in combination with other units ... and I meant the OVERLORD (dump creep) or the Nydus worm (send a Queen through for an advanced Creep Tumor or two on a large map).
Having the option of an "advanced escape route" (and I dont mean the positioning on the map) is something no one seems to consider. A Medivac costs 100/100 and a Warp Prism costs 200/0 and yet Terrans and Protoss are 10 times more likely to build these than Zerg are to get either drop capability or a Nydus Network. And yet any Zerg unit is 100% safe when they hop into a Nydus Worm after an attack ... something which Terrans and Protoss might want to have too since they lose lots of units in their medivacs. After a "losing battle" you can either remake ALL of your units or save some of them in a Worm ... you be the judge which one is more economic.
|
On March 12 2011 02:13 DoubleReed wrote:roaches are faster so I don't why you brought that up.
Roaches aren't faster than Hydras until you get the speed upgrade. They both have 2.25 base speed.
|
On March 08 2011 08:57 Subversion wrote: However, the main thing on my mind is the current state of ZvP. ZvP has long been considered the main role of the Hydra, as it unquestionably wrecks gateway units. However, more and more pros seem to be favouring pure Roach for their ground army, as Hydras are so incredibly weak to Collossus. The problem is that Hydras are a hefty gas investment, and while they do significant damage, they are absolutely wrecked by a critical mass of Collossus. Thus more and more Zerg players are favouring the beefier roach.
This is a problem for Blizzard, as any unit which becomes unused is somewhat of a white elephant. The problem isn't necessarily that the Hydra is a BAD unit, it seems to be more that it does not have a definite role to fill anymore.
As a protoss player, this narrative concerns me. I agree with the statement above (and would add Immortals, VRs and Phoenixes to the list of things which Hydras wreck) - hydras do feel like they are hard to deal with using anything other than colossi (and, as the post states, a "critical mass" of them). Further, the poll states that most people feel a change to the hydra needs to be made in order to make Colossi less effective against hydralisk.
I'm just curious here, without Colossi's current effectiveness - how are we expected to respond to roaches and hydras midgame? I understand that lategame colossi feel overpowering (in critical mass), and could probably be toned down a bit, but how are we to respond to midgame roach hydra aggression if a couple Colossi won't turn the tide? Things like (nerfed) templar, carriers or a mothership are a bit too far down the tech tree to reach before an intial push from a hydra/roach army.
|
On March 12 2011 02:11 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 01:55 Raygun wrote: Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed. Hydra: they move as fast as Immortals, sentries, ghost. period. Zealot have an upgrade, Marauder Marine have stim pack, colossi can walk off and down cliff which is a pretty good buff to its mobility Immortal = heavy and strong units. Sentries = caster. ghost = caster. There is no justification to hydra's speed off creep, if you consider their shitty HP, their cost, their tier tech.
There would be justification to thier off creep speed if they started with 1 armor. That 50 gas that they cost should at least pay for that. As it is, that 50 gas doesn't really pay for anything. It's just a resource sink.
|
Zerg players have no objections to spending thousands of gas on "throw away Banelings" and then send them into tank lines to try and get those stimming Marines who are running away ...
I wouldn't say that. It's miserable having to throw units away like that - especially when you know that even if you destroy an entire terran mineral line they will just drop the mules that they've been sitting on and pump out marines that will be stimmed and in your base in no time at all.
|
On March 12 2011 01:32 BattRoll wrote: I think Hydras haven't been utilized to a great extent as defensive units (stopping drops/etc). I normally use Hydras in these situations:
Cliff harass on LT type maps (Which seem to pretty much have disappeared) Close position Overlord creep highway Hydra pushes against toss/sometimes terran Pure Hydra/Ling vs mass thors Also they make a great combination with Broodlords vs terran OR protoss in just about any unit composition.
I find they have their uses right now in the game - but they're just too damn expensive and require too much of a commitment. I think getting rid of the hydra den/roach warren and merging them into one structure - and just requiring lair for hydras would be a step in the right direction.
Sure they have, they just aren't very good at it. Even ON creep, they aren't particularly quick, medivacs will probably get away if the hydras aren't there ahead of time.
Also, the hydras problem in these cases is its total lack of HIT POINTS. How are you going to rely on a defensive unit that has no HP? Stimmed marine drops would cause you to lose a lot of hydras unless you really overwhelm the drop forces. In which case you run into the other problem you get when relying on hydras as a defense unit:
How are you ever going to leave your base? Looking at this, you need to heavily outnumber any harass forces that you're using hydralisks to defend. This means that if you're moving out, that defense force has to either be left behind, or it cannot return to base in time to defend. Even if you're at his front door, and you see a doom drop leave his base, HE'LL GET THERE FIRST.
You might as rely on mass crawlers - you'll be about as mobile - AKA "CAN'T LEAVE CREEP", without wasting all that gas -.- (ok, exaggeration)
The close position "Giraffe Migration" is really the only thing I like out of the possible hydra uses you give. - Hydra + Spines - again, you REALLY need something there to use to soak damage, because hydras just CAN'T. However, I still feel like this exhibits the "I can't leave my base" syndrome of hydras - because you can't leave your base, you bring your base to him! (Insert soviet russia joke here)
|
Hydra's are indeed a crappy unit and are getting more and more extinct. I'm not sure if the infestor change will make them that less used though, perhaps muta will be more viable because of the projectile speed actually so you will start to actually need hydra's then.
They still see some play for various timing pushes and as a counter to air though.
The reason I suspect for hydra's being so weak is twofold imo. First of all ranged ground units (marine, stalker, hydra) are one of the most generally effective units in the game, they can fight almost anything and thus need to have distinct weaknesses to prevent the game from turning into a mass ranged units + a few supplements. Terran is already extremely marine focussed, protoss uses alot of stalkers so they simply don't want the hydra to be a core unit for Z to keep the racial 'feel' and differences in tact.
The second reason I think the hydra is kept weak is more of a guess: I think the lurker will be added in one of the expansions. That would add a lot of strength to the hydra as it would be able to transition into something else, which would mean the hydra can't be too strong. If they balance the game now without the hydra seeing lots of use it is less likely that an extra addition will severely unbalance all current strategies etc. Of course this is major speculation but I think the addition of the lurker would be popular.
|
I dont think the hydra needs to be changed, I just think it should be able to turn into a lurker because it sucks xD
|
I feel the need to emphasise here that this is NOT a balance QQ. I do not think the Hydra needs to be improved or buffed, I just think it needs to be changed. I don't think it functions well as a Zerg unit in its current state.
That made absolutely no sense. You claim to not be talking about balance, yet you want the Hydra to be changed. That requires a nerf or buff. It's statements like these that make me question the author's intelligence.
Hey mods, this is a balance thread. Just letting you know.
|
The problem is a combination of things. The main being how effective the roach is. The roach is faster, lasts longer, and with upgrades I feel starts to outshine the hydra, and because its cheaper is much easier to simply throw wave after wave of them at the opponent. Thats my current strat against protoss right now. survive up until I have 3 saturated bases and just send wave after wave of roach at the opponent. If I adding hydra I would not be able to use all my larvae as well.
That being said I think the hydra can be effective given a little creativity. Like having burrowed hydra at 1 position and lead the protoss army to it then unburrow and have a good surround. This also makes it so the hydra start in range of units so there is not that time of trying to push forward with them while colossus thin their numbers. i have not played against the colossus/VR build much yet but i could see this as a viable way to take it out. The only issue is dealing with observers.
|
On March 08 2011 09:12 kedinik wrote: Hydras already see lots of good use in ZvZ and ZvP.
If anything, they're just undervalued in ZvT. Hydra / infestor is an incredible late game against terran.
Fungal + hydras decimates anything poking out from existing siege tank lines, really shuts down their army's advancement.
Hydra Infestor is NOT good against terran late game.
I have honestly not heard anything more false. Are you serious? HYDRA INFESTOR?
|
They should increase the health of hydras or give it some kind of splash dmg resistance
|
|
|
|