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On March 10 2011 09:39 ChefStarCraft wrote: Hydras can be viable in zvst, Using them with broodlords and fungal growth, has proven to be very strong.
This is just my opinion
Yeah, except you'll need thousands of gas to afford hydras + upgrades + infestors + broodlords
//tx
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The problem is that hydra's weakness makes a big whole in zerg's offensiv possibilities. It's easy to understand zerg nowadays : good race with good units, way harder to play than protoss & terran because of drone / unit balance and big weakness early, but absolutly null offensiv capacities pre T3. It's amazing how zerg can't never attack / hinder economy / punish greed. 4-5 photon canon with a good sim city lock almost all counter and there are no units who are cost effectiv against canon. Same against the lolmao Planetary fortress ("Hello, imma suicide 40 baneling on your PF"). And the only unit that could do well against PF, against canon, is a unit that is useless off creep, so useless to counter attack : the hydra.
Some might argue that roach are good against canon, but they are not because canon have higher range, and a good sim city nullify roach. (as for PF, I just hate roach against terran for some reasons)
That's what I hate about playing zerg, I get attacked by a protoss death ball, and the protoss expand and tech at the same time. Even if I crush his army (which happen most of the time on open ground) I can't kill his base because he put down 5 or so canon and can defend with reinforcement easily.
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Some people in this thread stated that the Hydra's role would be antiair. So, why not make it an antiair unit?
- faster speed (dunno how fast exactly and if upgradable) - 2 attack types: a) Ground attack: Same range, but deals less damage than now b) Air attack: Range 7, low damage output, but extra damage vs non-massive units
Effect vs Ground: Due to better mobility (than before) they should still be viable as extra damage output (as seen in the video an page 28 in this thread, extra speed means extra damage)
Effect vs Air: Could be used against Colossus / Void Ray, shooting the Voidrays due to high range. Could be used to kill Medivacs in ZvT. Both Toss and Tera would have to Micro their air in order to still be effective.
What do you guys think of that unit? It would still not be a Core unit, but if balanced correcty it would / should be a viable addition to the Zerg army.
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The time window where you can use efficiently hydras is just too short. mid t2 unit, hard countered by tanks and completly destroy by colossus ? I don't see any reason to invest on hydras before i get ultralisks. They need a clear buff on move speed and 6 range (7 with +1 upgrade), you can decrease the dps to balance ofc.
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As maps get larger hydra will lose any viable offensive role which they currently had on maps like Steppes, close metal/LT, and larger maps give more time to get a spire up in response to protoss air openings (which is always better unless there is no tech switch to coli.. which would be unusual).
In ZvZ I think with the infestor change there's not going to be enough gas for that many hydras.
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On March 11 2011 23:23 Bactrian wrote: As maps get larger hydra will lose any viable offensive role which they currently had on maps like Steppes, close metal/LT, and larger maps give more time to get a spire up in response to protoss air openings (which is always better unless there is no tech switch to coli.. which would be unusual).
In ZvZ I think with the infestor change there's not going to be enough gas for that many hydras. They will only lose the role for offense if you are the "army vs. army" type of player. As long as people are still doing harrass with ground forces (and Hydras are really good at dealing damage) there is a place for Hydras. Sadly Zerg dont do drops or Nyduses enough, but larger maps would certainly offer the possibility for this, especially against Terrans who cant just warp in some units to defend.
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On March 11 2011 22:52 Serrin wrote: Some people in this thread stated that the Hydra's role would be antiair. So, why not make it an antiair unit?
- faster speed (dunno how fast exactly and if upgradable) - 2 attack types: a) Ground attack: Same range, but deals less damage than now b) Air attack: Range 7, low damage output, but extra damage vs non-massive units
Effect vs Ground: Due to better mobility (than before) they should still be viable as extra damage output (as seen in the video an page 28 in this thread, extra speed means extra damage)
Effect vs Air: Could be used against Colossus / Void Ray, shooting the Voidrays due to high range. Could be used to kill Medivacs in ZvT. Both Toss and Tera would have to Micro their air in order to still be effective.
What do you guys think of that unit? It would still not be a Core unit, but if balanced correcty it would / should be a viable addition to the Zerg army.
If you want low-damage range 7 AA attack, use a queen.
But really, the queen is a much better AA unit in general, because it doesn't need units in front of it to stay alive (which obviously doesn't matter against air units).
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Imo, I think it is still too early in the game to count out Hydras. Remember when the standard in ZvP was Mutaling? Now we are seeing much more roach hydra, because the protoss learned to counter ML. Now protoss is learning how to counter Roach Hydra, and the zerg will figure a new strategy to beat protoss's counter to RH. Its just the circle of life of a unit composition. The Hydra will see it's day again, after a few more strategys become standard and fade away.
At least, thats my opinion.
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On March 11 2011 23:46 57 Corvette wrote: Imo, I think it is still too early in the game to count out Hydras. Remember when the standard in ZvP was Mutaling? Now we are seeing much more roach hydra, because the protoss learned to counter ML. Now protoss is learning how to counter Roach Hydra, and the zerg will figure a new strategy to beat protoss's counter to RH. Its just the circle of life of a unit composition. The Hydra will see it's day again, after a few more strategys become standard and fade away.
At least, thats my opinion.
The problem with your opinion is mutaling actually has something to offer: Mobility.
Hydras offer sub-par, over-priced DPS with specifically slow movement speed off creep and not particularly fast on-creep, they're no zergling or even roach...
Zerg never goes Hydra because they WANT to, they go Hydra because they have no other choice, and it typically doesn't work out in their favor.
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i'ld like to see hydras move pre lair, there crapness off creep, means they're offesive abilties can still be counters (because it just take them so long to get there to attack)
shear cost, means when oppoments are scouting -2 gas = hydras.
this will open up a large window for hydras to be used, it prevents 4warpgates being such a massive threat.
allows for roach/hydras combo earlier.
we all know how effective seig tanks/hellions/collous/imortals are vs hydras.
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wait wait wait, theres a hydra in sc2?
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Now we are seeing much more roach hydra, because the protoss learned to counter ML. I kept using ML till the phoenix buff, so it's not really about learn how to counter imo.
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On March 12 2011 00:03 Whomp wrote: wait wait wait, theres a hydra in sc2?
Only similarity is the name and look. Everything else about the unit is completely different.
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I think like one guy watched my video lol, but one of the most interesting results I had was 20 hydras vs 40 marines, with and without combat shield on or off creep, the hydra won and with the range upgrade it did better. But then 40 stimmed marines completly stomped 6 range hydras on creep without medivacs.
I would like to hear more opinions from pro zergs on this subject, idra already spoke in favor of switching the hydra and roach tech, but hopefully some other zergs like catz and ret can chime in.
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I wish that Hydras had Stim. How awesome would that be?
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On March 12 2011 00:51 zarepath wrote: I wish that Hydras had Stim. How awesome would that be?
Adrenal glands to upgrade hydralisks as well as/instead of zerglings.
Do it, blizzard.
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Need move speed and or range but not more dps :/
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One of the things that made hydra so effective in broodwar, was not only the 1 supply, low cost, and tier 1 arrival, but defilers and dark swarm in teir 3. They were an incredibly versatile unit that scaled nicely into tier 2 (providing a residual anti air from tier 1 and also the morph into lurk for anti marine handling) and then scaled nicely into tier 3 with defiler support swarming them.
If we are going to change them, then how about a spell or an ability that allows their handicaps to be overcome? Speed, extra shields, etc. But absolutely some ability that allows the hydra to scale into the next tier/tiers.
Come to think of it, all the zerg units could use this kind of attention to how they scale. The current design of the game lends to turtling styles that create drawn out stand offs. Meanwhile behind that standoff opponents tech into low tier nullifying unit compositions. If you can scale up, then you can invest in low tier tech when it is needed, and then move up into a soft counter, giving you flexibility throughout the entire match up.
As it sits zerg needs to throw their units away and trade up in order to scale up and in early stages of the game, they dare not invest in an army less they get caught out in the mid game to late game transitions..
And this idea that zerg is a 5 base swarming race when almost all their units cost 2+ supply (6 for ultras, 4 for broods?) is a joke when 3 base saturation with 3 queens requires 96 supply, leaving about 50 units for swarming. What kind of swarm is that then? Are you going to make 10 broods when they take 40 supply? maybe you can add 1 ultra and a few banes that explode themselves into nothing?
Hydras need to be 1 supply, and so do roaches, broods need to be 2 and ultras 3. Adjust the cost and dps accordingly or just make the game 300 - 400 supply. As it stands I dont think terran or protoss have any problem holding off a 300 supply zerg, but zerg isn't able to actually achieve the mythical SC1 swarm unless they sacrifice drones or stockpile larva and effectively throw 1/3rd of their army at the enemy at a time..
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On March 10 2011 08:47 shawster wrote: your opinion doesn't matter
hell even the pros don't matter
bottom line people don't know how to balance shit, predicting game balance is like predicting stock. even the most qualified of people can't predict it. imo blizzard has been the #1 company with regards to competitive balance ( in rts at least) they know when to sit back and chill and see what new strategies develop instead of basing their balancing on the past 2 or even 5 months. shit changes, the only time you need to change something before that time period is if something is completely imbalanced.
the hydra does not need to be changed, if it gets changed then either it becomes a massive buff to a zerg, or something that doesn't matter. if it becomes a massive buff, then you have to balance around this massive buff. in sc1 things were hardly balanced, if sc1 was sc2 then you would have people screaming for queen buffs and psi storm nerfs and dark swarm nerfs etc etc. let the game develop, if zerg consistently has a 35% win rate then you know it's time to change something, pick an area and change it. don't change things with the intention to make it viable, change to balance.
the idea of changing to fit a certain races style is noble, but balance suffers. in WoW a blizzard rep said that they balance around classes, not specs. if your spec sucks well then too bad for you, they don't want to have the headache of balancing 30 specs. they want to balance classes, and that's what i think people need to consider before changing certain units.
Except blizzard has stated multiple times that they consider the feedback of everyone who speaks up. Wether they consider it shit, or good insight, is a totally irrelevant, but the point is; opinions do matter to blizzard.
I do agree with the idealology of sitting back and letting players figure stuff out for a long time, though. Hydras don't need to be used in every match up, or even be cost-efficient, as long as there's zergs performing well at the top level.
I think alot of the players of sc2 are just expecting changes to come quicker than BW's patches.
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mmm lesse hydras 1 supply would mean tanks 2 supply, really for that one 90 tanks 20 workers late game <3 mining through mules. not even a cliff less map would leave an opening against this defense xD.
But at the moment zerg maxes out rally fast because they only produce cheap units and don't have to invest nearly as much as the other races in production.
As for the heavy gas cost i don't see a big problem her, modified rich (as much inside as normal geysir) geysir expansion that is hard to defend unless you are zerg, vs a easier to hold gold expo if you are a terran.
i liked the bw maps with those evil 2 geysir expansions was fun to watch a zerg taking the risk getting it.
Anyway to those fast change suggestion coming up her, i don't think you will like the waves that will come back if they really decide to change the t2 damage monster called hydra. (as much as it sounds people want a roach looking like the hydra with a bit more range so they have it even easier to a click their way to victory)
and if you fill 3 bases with 90 workers as zerg its not the other races fault that you do something like this xD. (wouldn't even know where to put the mineral excess you would get from this ^^
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