The Death of the Hydra? - Page 24
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On March 09 2011 17:25 sylverfyre wrote: 1 - Hydra is slow as shit off-creep, and only barely respectable on-creep. It's slower than a slow-roach off creep! don't spread misinformation Roach and Hydra have the same speed off creep (2.25) that is the same speed as Zealot,Immortal,Colossus,Voidray,Sentry only units that are faster on protoss ground is stalker,upgraded zealot and dark templar. (and this is ofcourse compared off creep, on creep Z is always faster then what P can offer) So get more queens and spread creep as hell if that is the problem. | ||
Skrelt
Netherlands306 Posts
On March 09 2011 13:45 cHaNg-sTa wrote: It really just makes absolutely no sense to what they did to the Hydralisk the more you look at it. Almost everything in this game got some sort of damage boost and health boost. Yet.. SC1 Hydralisk 80 HP 75 Minerals 25 Gas 1 Supply Tier 1 Availability Range+Speed upgrade available SC2 Hydralisk 80 HP 100 Minerals 50 Gas 2 Supply Tier 2 Availability Range upgrade available Granted, it's not completely right to compare the two units, but still by just looking at it, SC2's hydra cost more, uses more supply, available later in the game, and doesn't have a speed upgrade option (not to mention same HP). Granted, their DPS is a bit better, but it doesn't even matter when so many core units just evaporate hydras. Even though SC1 hydra did half damage to small units, they still had the speed to allow them to retreat and to adjust later. So the DPS reduction wasn't a huge deal. Now you basically have to commit to early attacks since it's near impossible to retreat with hydras. This. Also the ability to mass units fast is what zerg made zerg tho... Now Terran can swarm better with marines then Zerg can with Roach/Hydra | ||
Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
They're just way too damn slow. And you can't have a speed and a range upgrade, or else things just get silly. You already need THREE upgrades just to give roaches burrow movement, which just doesn't seem very elegant at all. I still don't feel this fixes the problem though. Zerg needs a nice T1.5 1-supply unit that can form part of a core army, like the marine. Zerg is supposed to be able to mass units, but aside from Zerglings there's really nothing to give that swarmy feel. | ||
Bayyne
United States1967 Posts
On March 09 2011 18:20 freetgy wrote: don't spread misinformation Roach and Hydra have the same speed off creep (2.25) that is the same speed as Zealot,Immortal,Colossus,Voidray,Sentry only units that are faster on protoss ground is stalker,upgraded zealot and dark templar. (and this is ofcourse compared off creep, on creep Z is always faster then what P can offer) So get more queens and spread creep as hell if that is the problem. Don't spread incomplete information. Roaches will always have the speed upgraded researched, and with that will be much faster off creep than hydras. And of course it's easy spreading creep with more queens. But it's just as easy for a competent opponent to nullify creep spread. | ||
freetgy
1720 Posts
Of course upgraded roaches are faster than Hydras but that wasn't the point. | ||
Bayyne
United States1967 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I disagree completely, I feel like the Hydra is actually becoming more relevant, you simply need creep, and there have been too many games to name in the recent GSL and sc2casts.com where hydras are becoming the key unit. Take elfi vs Dimaga for a most recent example of how amazing hydras are, they just need to be used correctly. And note that hydras are actually pretty quick units when on creep, allowing for flanking even. The hydra was never broken, it really did come down to metagame - players before didn't grasp the full importance of creep. Just look at any GSL game of a Zerg in season 1, to the current season. Even Idra and Nestea rarely spread creep farther than a single tumor from the expansion. And we haven't even seen major Nydus usage yet, with a few games here and there really underlying the amazing possibilities they open up (hopetorture vs fruitdealer) Buffs of 10-15hp were tried in the beta, and it was broken. The hydra is a perfectly fine unit, people just didn't realize creep was so important. Now, people are beginning to move mass overlords with speed with their hydras, you are starting to see queen drops for tumors at the front lines. Why don't you use unit tester and see how the hydra works with creep, and without. You'll realize they just aren't being used correctly, as cliche as that might sound. We are also seeing a similar metagame change with the hellion - no longer used as a quick build 2 against Zerg (or 5 for crazy reactor instead of blue flame!!11!) for harassment and then never make them again. Instead, now we are seeing them used aggressively against Protoss with the new emergence of mech, which is still in it's infantile stages (take iNControl vs DDE) as well as in TvT, with the many recent games with TLO, IMMVP, Jinro, etc... where Hellions are extremely useful, not just in a early timing attack (a trend started about 2 months ago) but in full combat. We are also seeing phoenixes change in the metagame, and the recent patch did nothing to change balance (besides in PvZ) but did everything to encourage further investigation into the unit. Spoiler Alert regarding GSL March: + Show Spoiler + Jinro even stated that if HongUnPrime goes phoenixes, he will lose, and gasp, what happened So I think the Original Post is completely wrong, and off. Just because when YOU use the unit you fail, doesn't mean it needs to be buffed. Maybe you aren't playing the unit correctly, and you should look to see if there is any way that unit could be used well. Take the reaper - while recent 'nerfs' have served to limit it's application, the reaper still has it's use and is extremely powerful at specific times. Some units are more niche than others; the marine will always be seen as too powerful because of its resourcefulness. And a unit may not be designed to be an end-all be all, some units are there because they can be used for very specific timing attacks other races have a hard time dealing with. Every unit has a time and place - if you think your unit is trash, learn at what game time it isn't. If you think your unit is weak, learn what engagement it is strongest in. Ravens, Archons, Motherships, infestors, phoenixes, carriers even (PainUser vs Kiwikaki) are all becoming relevant units, but people either don't know how to use them or are just starting to. qft | ||
Anima4
Australia59 Posts
I am surprised that people are saying that the hydralisk is dying.... | ||
ALPINA
3791 Posts
Why do you quote your own posts? Creep or no creep hydra still weak. No matter if you have creep or not it will die in seconds vs. storms, collosi, marines, tanks, etc. What you just said is: "Hydra is completely fine, just learn to spread creep". Have you ever played vs. opponents who do not allow you to spread creap? I mean you are happily spreading creep all over the map and then suddenly 3 stimmed marines comes and with 2 good scans clears every creep tumor you put in last 10 minutes. | ||
iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4257 Posts
Then again it's not the first unit in sc2 nerfed to basically useless status either , look at reapers post supply before barrack/factory speed upgrade change or voids rays post speed removal. | ||
Kazang
578 Posts
On March 09 2011 20:42 Alpina wrote: What you just said is: "Hydra is completely fine, just learn to spread creep". Have you ever played vs. opponents who do not allow you to spread creap? I mean you are happily spreading creep all over the map and then suddenly 3 stimmed marines comes and with 2 good scans clears every creep tumor you put in last 10 minutes. Just tell an overlord to follow a Hydra and you get a nice trail of creep following your hydra so whenever it stops to shoot it's got creep under it almost instantly. It pains me how people harp on about how "easy" SC2 is compared to BW yet can't seem to handle the basic task of controlling overlords along with an army. Those same people crying about how easy it is are the first ones to cry that something is imbalanced and in this case want to just get a speed upgrade for Hydralisks because they can't or don't want to have to properly control creep. It's pathetic. | ||
Excomm
United States152 Posts
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
On March 09 2011 18:25 Skrelt wrote: This. Also the ability to mass units fast is what zerg made zerg tho... Now Terran can swarm better with marines then Zerg can with Roach/Hydra sc1 is 80 hp/75mins/25gas/1supply/10 damage/ 4+1 range / runs at 1.105x worker speed after upgrade ( ~3.1 if by sc2 values ) sc2 is 80hp/100mins/50gas/2supply/12 damage/ 5+1 range / no speed bonus... (more fragile but the dps works out to be the same, but they cost a lot more food and resources... ) 5 hydras ~375 minerals/125 gas, and ~50 damage/5 food and faster, but 4 sc2 hydras ~400 minerals/200 gas at 8 food and ~48 damage +1range, slower | ||
Barett
Canada454 Posts
On March 09 2011 18:50 Subversion wrote: What about giving them that +1 range naturally, and changing the range upgrade into a speed upgrade? I think that is a great idea. Along with a slight health buff, they might be usable again. I miss the Hydra. I went back and played some BW today, and Nostalgia'd back to my mass Hydra days.... Man it felt good. Too bad I cannot ever make any in Star2 :C. Roaches are just so much better. | ||
Gackt_
335 Posts
edit: give them speed upgrade. k ty blizz | ||
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Creep or no creep hydra still weak. No matter if you have creep or not it will die in seconds vs. storms, collosi, marines, tanks, etc. Not really. Go into unit tester and try them out. Hydras basically get wrecked by Aoe - in other words, only by 5 units in the entire game. Compare this to marines who are weak against aoe, roaches, stalkers, charlogets, etc. And they aren't particularly weak against marines, just maybe not great. They wreck marauders, thors, all air units, every armored but colosi/siege. So with your mindset of 'creep or no creep' is pretty telling that you probably just don't know how to use them. Which is okay, not many people do. What you just said is: "Hydra is completely fine, just learn to spread creep". Have you ever played vs. opponents who do not allow you to spread creap? I mean you are happily spreading creep all over the map and then suddenly 3 stimmed marines comes and with 2 good scans clears every creep tumor you put in last 10 minutes. Zerg is very hard and intensive to play, no one is saying otherwise to that. You can start your own QQ thread about this in the starcraft2.com forums, but you will generally see high level players build more than 4 queens on 2 base just so they can spread creep. And how often do you see T actively stop creep below high level games? Terran is losing a mule whereas Zerg is only losing energy (at most, 150 minerals for 1 extra queen which is much less than a mule). Then again it's not the first unit in sc2 nerfed to basically useless status either , look at reapers post supply before barrack/factory speed upgrade change or voids rays post speed removal. Reapers aren't useless, we see many 1 rax expand builds using them to great effect (hannibalprime vs ogscezanne g1). Void rays have also been used to great effect (jinro vs ogsmc). It just sounds like you are raging. There will always be a use for every unit, some units simply just have less situations than others. It doesn't mean they are worse - take burrowed banelings (ogscezanne vs hannibalprime g3). I quoted my own post because it was so awesome and you didn't respond to it yet. | ||
Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
The argument about creep is silly. To spread creep offensively, i.e. right up to your opponent's defenses, will take the greater part of the match. Not to mention with an obs or a Raven, its very easy to annihilate 20 minutes of creep spreading work. I am all for units getting a BENEFIT from creep, but they shouldn't be so shit off creep that they're actually DEPENDENT on it. Creep is supposed to be a reward, not a requirement. | ||
Kazang
578 Posts
On March 09 2011 23:55 Subversion wrote: The argument about creep is silly. To spread creep offensively, i.e. right up to your opponent's defenses, will take the greater part of the match. Not to mention with an obs or a Raven, its very easy to annihilate 20 minutes of creep spreading work. I am all for units getting a BENEFIT from creep, but they shouldn't be so shit off creep that they're actually DEPENDENT on it. Creep is supposed to be a reward, not a requirement. Who decided that it should be a reward not a requirement? At the highest level of play use of all advantages should be required, that is where the skill comes in. The other thing is that people are just thinking about creep wrong. They just spread it and leave it instead of having queens and overlords with the army to have creep under the units constantly. Hydras do have a speed upgrade, it's called Pneumatized Carapace, creep on demand. For a player good enough to actually take advantage of creep Hydras are faster than all the ground units for other races. Hydras are a unit that takes skill to use properly, can't handle that? Just go play protoss, or just don't make Hydras as zerg, there are no situations where it's required to use mass Hydras. It's that simple. The game mechanics don't need to be dumbed down and made simpler just because not all players can take advantage of creep properly. | ||
FLuE
United States1012 Posts
For example, I've had some success with some nice early ling/hdyra pushes vs. FE toss. However, once I make that initial push I have to only make lings to finish the game off because reinforcing with hydras takes way to long. So there you have this example where zerg requires that reinforcement(really a main thing that defines the race) yet this unit takes forever to get there. It is early game so there isn't going to be the creep highway yet. It is also a huge pain to do any interesting unit combinations where you have lings at one speed, roaches at another, and hydras falling behind. The units are weak as is and need to be microed(there is no "zerg ball"). So you have these units at all different speeds trying to create flanks/micro and that is failing. When looking at the other races the general "unit speed movement" seems to have more synergy. The protoss death ball stays clumped easily and all seems to move at the same speed relatively. I know stalkers are faster but it is easy to keep them clumped and move. It doesn't seem challenging as a toss player to keep your death ball as a death ball. Terran has units at all different speeds but you are usually making more incremental pushes and sieges, so unit speed isn't really an issue for the race. Then you come to Zerg and the speed of the hydra doesn't fit in with the race. That is really the problem. Quit saying "it is the same speed as the zealot!" The problem with hydra speed is relative to the speed of the rest of the zerg units, not the speed relative to the other units in the game. I really feel the only reason the hydra is in the game is for BW/SC nostalgia purposes. Because the unit really doesn't fit, seems like little thought was put into it, and what should be a main unit(only ground unit that hits air and ground for zerg) sucks. I really feel like blizzard was like "just put it into the game so that people don't complain that it isn't there." After the next patch the gas for hydras will be much better spent on infestors anyway. | ||
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