At the moment, zergs aren't able to do their preferred roach/hydra/corrupter mix against toss because toss has a manageable counter to this composition. I really wish zergs would stop suiciding into void/collo with this mix time after time and then making balance whine threads about it. There's more going on in PvZ then, for example, ZvT in which both races only uses four units.
The Death of the Hydra? - Page 7
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
At the moment, zergs aren't able to do their preferred roach/hydra/corrupter mix against toss because toss has a manageable counter to this composition. I really wish zergs would stop suiciding into void/collo with this mix time after time and then making balance whine threads about it. There's more going on in PvZ then, for example, ZvT in which both races only uses four units. | ||
hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
On March 08 2011 08:57 Subversion wrote:The problem isn't necessarily that the Hydra is a BAD unit, it seems to be more that it does not have a definite role to fill anymore. Do you really believe that the hydra isn't a bad unit? If we define bad units as those that are cost-inefficient, doesn't that make hydras one of the worst in the game? I mean, reapers are obviously worse, but Terran has more units than Zerg and reapers fill a very niche role (albeit somewhat ineffectively now). I stand by the statement that hydras are one of the worst core units in the game. | ||
LoLAdriankat
United States4307 Posts
On March 08 2011 11:06 StrifeCro wrote: Well just try some fights like 20 roaches 10 hydras vs 35 roaches, which is equal cost. As long as you have 1.5 extra roaches per hydra then they will win, until you get 200 food then its impossible to have 1.5 extra roaches per hydra. This is with 0/0 vs 0/0 too, roaches scale better with upgrades than hydras do as well. @ LoLAdriankat Choke points\force field is a pure surface area problem which could potentially make hydras better after your roaches cannot attack anymore due to surface area but hydras could because they are 6 range instead of 4. Thing is, I feel roaches are even less affected by surface area than hydras or roach/hydra because of burrow movement. I actually feel its easier to have close to 100 percent of your forces attacking when you have 100 percent roach than roach/hydra Ah yeah now I see it. I should've thought about that second paragraph of your post a little more (doh). Sounds so much better than roach/hydra. Hydras are also pretty expensive during the early-mid game, so I can see how it can be better to just invest that money one could spend teching to hydras on getting both roach upgrades instead. Thanks for the info. | ||
Dromar
United States2145 Posts
As is, I only get them if I'm playing against a protoss who stays on one base too long. Hydras deal with the likely VR + gateway all-in, and allow an unstoppable counter afterward since the protoss doesn't have any tech. That said, I know some people are big fans of doing quick hydra drops against FE protoss, though I've never done it myself. Maybe, just maybe hydras could be used aggressively in a timing-push fashion against certain builds. But I really don't like where the unit is now. | ||
sevia
United States954 Posts
I think a T3 health+speed upgrade might work. | ||
hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
On March 08 2011 11:09 MacroKing wrote: Hydras are fine atm. They have their weakness' and Strengths, Early game vs protoss gateway units they destroy! Here's the problem: Hydras are not quick at all to come out. By the time a Zerg has enough to break a Protoss (and this is ignoring forcefields entirely), it's very likely that Protoss is almost at the point of getting colossi. And if the Zerg wants to keep Protoss on one-base rather than allow the 2-base colossi to happen, they need to make lings (and upgrade ling speed). Going hydras early game versus Toss can work, but it most likely won't if the Protoss is any good. Edit: And I should add that if Protoss does put early pressure and sees the hydras, they can easily run away. Hydras have no ability to chase anything. On top of that, because of their slow off-creep speed, they're quite possibly the worst unit to attack early with. If the attack fails, there is no way to retreat. And of course, once P sees large numbers of hydras, out come the colossi to trash them. | ||
Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
Why do you think that just because you have a teamliquid account you can see the future better than blizzard or progamers? Yeah, there are problems with Hydras. Do you somehow believe blizzard will just not make changes even if they are literally never used in a single game? | ||
kedinik
United States352 Posts
I only said anything because I've lost leads by going pure roach and getting chewed up by smaller roach/hydra armies. And since then I've consistently beaten pure roach with roach/hydra. But the last thing I want to do is dig in my heels; you face stronger opponents and have more experience, for sure. | ||
hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
On March 08 2011 11:17 Eknoid4 wrote: 6 months ago if you asked teamliquid if they thought there would be an NASL within the next 6 months they would have almost entirely voted "no" Why do you think that just because you have a teamliquid account you can see the future better than blizzard or progamers? Yeah, there are problems with Hydras. Do you somehow believe blizzard will just not make changes even if they are literally never used in a single game? Honest question: Could you point me towards progamers saying that hydras aren't bad units? I know IdrA, Ret, iNcontrol, and Tyler have all made statements to that effect but I want to see who is saying otherwise. | ||
zzdd
United States484 Posts
On March 08 2011 11:17 Eknoid4 wrote: 6 months ago if you asked teamliquid if they thought there would be an NASL within the next 6 months they would have almost entirely voted "no" Why do you think that just because you have a teamliquid account you can see the future better than blizzard or progamers? Yeah, there are problems with Hydras. Do you somehow believe blizzard will just not make changes even if they are literally never used in a single game? Ask the reaper. | ||
Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
Reapers are used like every 2nd or 3rd Terran matchup in the GSL atm especially in TvP. Ask the facts. | ||
Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On March 08 2011 10:29 Freedom48 wrote: Hydras don't scare a toss against Void, mutas do. Mutas are bad against void rays, just like hydralisks and corruptors. It's one of the problems zerg has - they have no unit that can counter VR at equal supply other than the queen, which is not an air unit and which is slow off creep which causes many problems. On March 08 2011 10:35 StrifeCro wrote: Immortals yes, void ray, only somewhatThe only reason to make hydras is versus voidrays as anti air and versus immortals. Hydras work quite well vs void ray per resource cost (obviously as long as there's no storm or colossus) but not in maxed-army circumstances. On March 08 2011 11:09 MacroKing wrote: Hydras are fine atm. They have their weakness' and Strengths, Early game vs protoss gateway units they destroy! Oh you mean like how hydralisks loose to zealots (let alone chargelots), or like how an upgraded hydralisk will barely beats a stalker, and how a blinked stalkers beat hydralisks? there's only a 25 mineral premium over the cost of a hydra, and when both have their upgrades, stalkers win. | ||
LoLAdriankat
United States4307 Posts
On March 08 2011 11:19 kedinik wrote: Appreciate the response StrifeCro, I'll go try a few fights in a unit tester. I only said anything because I've lost leads by going pure roach and getting chewed up by smaller roach/hydra armies. And since then I've consistently beaten pure roach with roach/hydra. But the last thing I want to do is dig in my heels; you face stronger opponents and have more experience, for sure. Usually in those cases it's because the hydras are doing uncontested damage. You could fix that with speedling flanks or burrow movement. | ||
Yoshi Kirishima
United States10159 Posts
Possibly they'll just leave hydras as they are for now and rebalance it (along with other things) when HotS comes out. For now, besides the occasional use in ZvZ or anti-air defense, the Hydra is sort of the epic rare unit you see when the Zerg decides to do a bust or something. Especially in ZvP where you hit before they have Colossi cus really, before Colossi they don't have much that can deal with Hydras xD. | ||
zzdd
United States484 Posts
On March 08 2011 11:25 Eknoid4 wrote: Reapers are used like every 2nd or 3rd Terran matchup in the GSL atm especially in TvP. Ask the facts. They are used for their utility. There is a reason no one builds more than one. | ||
brain_
United States812 Posts
I hate it that the Hydra is so useless, but I can't see a way to buff it without creating imbalance. The Roach fills too similar of a role. And Hydras DO wreck Gateway units if you don't have Colossi. There is also the issue of Zerg production - they can remax on a unit instantly once you hit the lategame. The ability to switch from one strong unit to another unit (that absolutely wrecks the opponent's army composition) is dangerous for balance... Hence Zerg having only one truly viable ground unit. | ||
dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
Or maybe they only pets because they are too weak to go fight so they have to stay at home. | ||
Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
On March 08 2011 11:29 zzdd wrote: They are used for their utility. There is a reason no one builds more than one. go ahead and tell that to the observer. | ||
cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
On March 08 2011 09:33 JerKy wrote: I think a big part of the problem is we expect the Hydra to live up to its supremacy in BW. Hydra's in BW were a really powerful unit: cost effective, could be produced in bulk, and had good DPS versus both air and ground, and were relatively mobile. Hydra's are extremely fragile in SC2, and extremely immobile compared to other units without creep. As Blizzard stated, part of the reason Hydra's have received such a change is they'd be too powerful if they were mobile, high DPS, AND hard to kill (much like they were in BW). If we look at a similar example: the dragoon. The dragoon was vital to a Protoss army in BW. It's SC2 replacement, the Stalker, probably doesn't live up to the dragoon (ignoring things like Blink). People complain and complain about the Stalker being a "trash" unit at times, but protoss players have come to adjust to them. I think a similar approach needs to be taken with Hydras. As mentioned, roaches are often favored over the Hydra. With the roach, a cost-effective, powerful unit, I don't see why people should worry about the Hydra becoming "useless" It should be regarded as more of a supplement unit, something to add high DPS to your army mix. Afterall, the reaper was almost unused for a long while, but finally people are inventing unique strategies that implement them EXTREMELY well. I personally think it's a matter of time before we discover the true potential for hydras. Pretty good point. But there's a problem with this. Hydras have a very limited window of being effective. One that window is gone, is becomes very difficult for hydras to be cost effective (a la colossus). While stalkers are not great units, they still play pretty good role (obviously not spectacular) throughout the whole game. Decent movement speed for early harassment, good units for 4gate, later on with lots of stalkers/blink, all these make Stalkers a pretty viable unit throughout most of the game. Hydras on the other hand, while effective against gateway units, they start losing its effectiveness since 1. It's hard to fight off creep and thus really exposing the hydras if you try to push with them. 2. Zerg will get hydras much later than Stalkers since it's harder to transition to them safely. 3. Once colossus are out, Hydra become pretty close to ineffective in a head on battle. This gives hydras a really tough time trying to be aggressive early on or be cost effective later on especially on bigger maps. This small window is so hard to hit correctly that it's just not that safe of an option especially if you don't plan on ending the game right then. | ||
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