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What about giving the hydra a slowing attack?
Rather than speeding them up, what about slowing everything else down? it would make them a ton better against air, and would synergise well with lings, and ultras.
I haven't really given this too much thought, it was just something i was thinking about while laddering last night.
Thoughts?
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Ok guys how do you spread creep onto your opponent? You know when you get to that point where your opponents army can see a new tumor being thrown down and can easily snipe it without you being able to engage on creep, how do you get past that?
Its is unrealistic to expect a zerg player to always fight on creep. Bring overlord to the battle? Do you think the opponent sees an attack coming? And you can't just use creep to retreat you need to use it during the fight otherwise your hydras will not perform as well.
Also there is no window were you have hydras and terrans don't have tanks, tanks are earlier tech not to mention if you tech straight to hydras you lose to any early timings(or anything other than 2port banshee)
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If a player is even halfway competent he will easily keep creep well away from his base.
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On March 15 2011 10:45 Subversion wrote: If a player is even halfway competent he will easily keep creep well away from his base.
So true. Creep shouldn't be a requirement, but rather a bonus given to anal Zerg players. And personally seeing how easily Hydras are fried i don't see Blizzards OP fear that mobile Hydras would break the game.
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On March 15 2011 10:18 fusihunter wrote: What about giving the hydra a slowing attack?
Rather than speeding them up, what about slowing everything else down? it would make them a ton better against air, and would synergise well with lings, and ultras.
I haven't really given this too much thought, it was just something i was thinking about while laddering last night.
Thoughts?
Why don't we just give zerg the marauder? Then give terran hydras in marauders place. We can even keep costs the same - 100/25 for terran hydra and 100/50 for zerg marauder. I would welcome this change as a zerg!.
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On March 15 2011 10:18 fusihunter wrote: What about giving the hydra a slowing attack?
Rather than speeding them up, what about slowing everything else down? it would make them a ton better against air, and would synergise well with lings, and ultras.
I haven't really given this too much thought, it was just something i was thinking about while laddering last night.
Thoughts?
Haha, did anyone else read this post, think "boy that'd make Hydras pretty OP," then seconds later realize that we already have that unit in the marauder? Granted a hydra having slow vs air targets (or only air targets...or maybe even bonus range vs air only) would be pretty interesting.
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I would like to see more Zergs do Quick Lair to Hydra vs Protoss and do drop/nydus then switch to mass roach once colossus tech gets up. So Hydras will still have a role in ZvP but not in other matchups... its sad because I would like to have a ground unit that could attack air...
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didnt idra talk about going quick hydras to stop blink stalker timing attack?
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To save the Hydra, it needs just that tad bit more late game survivability or maybe even an ability which makes it "leap" forward/backwards 4-5 tiles sort of like blink but if they are blocked they do not move through the object. This could be used as both an offensive ability and defensive ability one for ambushing the other for fleeing (or the same ability but you need to make them turn around)
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be cool if hydras could scale walls
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On March 14 2011 20:58 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 18:00 Hobokinz wrote:On March 14 2011 17:44 Rabiator wrote: In Broodwar there was no "creep spread" largely because the mechanics werent in the game and spreading creep with sunken colonies is impractical for the most part. For SC2 Blizzard came up with a neat gimmick which is the creep tumor and the speed boost on creep. Sadly many Zerg players are a bit lazy with spreading their creep so they miss out on this. But is this really unfair given that the main units compared with the Hydra have their speed boost attached to a condition as well? I think not.
If Terrans have their Medivacs accompany the bio army to heal them after a stim and during a fight, why cant Zerg use their Overlords for the same purpose? Zealots cant even decide to run faster when they want it, they need to have a target to charge. IMO the Zerg players need to stop whining and learn to spread their creep more.
If Hydras get a speed upgrade we are back to Broodwar days where you spread creep with turrets and all the new nifty mechanics have to go .... including the moving defensive structures. I hate seeing people say "OH just bring Overlords dood!" If your Overlords die then you get supply blocked and then Zerg can no longer remax (AKA what Zerg needs to do to win games). And the comment that Zerg players just need to stop crying and spread creep is so ignorant it hurts. Maybe you don't see players spread creep that much, but I can promise you ,while it isn't perfect, that alot of Z players DO spread creep. Make Medivacs cost supply, then you have a post that works. With an argument like that you will never ever spread out your Overlords for scouting because they might die to an air unit, right? Makes sense because you have only just enough Overlords to supply your army, right? Having Overlords block your units from view wont prevent an opponent from targeting them ... obviously. One of the arguments was that you cant flee with Hydras when sh.. hits the fan, but Overlords spread BEHIND your army will not be in the line of fire and I think people might prefer losing an Overlord to losing a few Hydras.
This is a very fair point. Have your OLs behind your army and as you flee your OVs can flee as well and the creep will slowly dissolve, leaving more than enough time for the hydras to use it. The difficulty, of course, would be properly spreading OLs at the same time as you control your army in a battle, as well as having enough of them that the creep would spread fast enough to be of use by the time the battle is over.
It's a neat idea that I'll need to experiment with myself, thanks for that thought.
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On March 16 2011 10:09 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 20:58 Rabiator wrote:On March 14 2011 18:00 Hobokinz wrote:On March 14 2011 17:44 Rabiator wrote: In Broodwar there was no "creep spread" largely because the mechanics werent in the game and spreading creep with sunken colonies is impractical for the most part. For SC2 Blizzard came up with a neat gimmick which is the creep tumor and the speed boost on creep. Sadly many Zerg players are a bit lazy with spreading their creep so they miss out on this. But is this really unfair given that the main units compared with the Hydra have their speed boost attached to a condition as well? I think not.
If Terrans have their Medivacs accompany the bio army to heal them after a stim and during a fight, why cant Zerg use their Overlords for the same purpose? Zealots cant even decide to run faster when they want it, they need to have a target to charge. IMO the Zerg players need to stop whining and learn to spread their creep more.
If Hydras get a speed upgrade we are back to Broodwar days where you spread creep with turrets and all the new nifty mechanics have to go .... including the moving defensive structures. I hate seeing people say "OH just bring Overlords dood!" If your Overlords die then you get supply blocked and then Zerg can no longer remax (AKA what Zerg needs to do to win games). And the comment that Zerg players just need to stop crying and spread creep is so ignorant it hurts. Maybe you don't see players spread creep that much, but I can promise you ,while it isn't perfect, that alot of Z players DO spread creep. Make Medivacs cost supply, then you have a post that works. With an argument like that you will never ever spread out your Overlords for scouting because they might die to an air unit, right? Makes sense because you have only just enough Overlords to supply your army, right? Having Overlords block your units from view wont prevent an opponent from targeting them ... obviously. One of the arguments was that you cant flee with Hydras when sh.. hits the fan, but Overlords spread BEHIND your army will not be in the line of fire and I think people might prefer losing an Overlord to losing a few Hydras. This is a very fair point. Have your OLs behind your army and as you flee your OVs can flee as well and the creep will slowly dissolve, leaving more than enough time for the hydras to use it. The difficulty, of course, would be properly spreading OLs at the same time as you control your army in a battle, as well as having enough of them that the creep would spread fast enough to be of use by the time the battle is over. It's a neat idea that I'll need to experiment with myself, thanks for that thought.
I understand the argument he's trying to make, but the rate of which creep spreads via overlords makes it so that this isn't the best solution. Its ultimately still a defensive posture -- if the protoss/terran suddenly decides to retreat or use their long range weaponry (tanks/colossi), zerg still can't press an attack because overlords don't spread creep fast enough.
At best it helps with retreat, and even then you're also risking the loss of overlords (don't forget they take up larva).
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Also to get the best use of your units you need to fight on creep so that your units move into position faster.
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The last thing Hydras need is some gimmicky ability.
That's something for Terran/Protoss. Zerg, aside from its casters, does not have units with special abilities. It has raw numbers and mobility.
The Hydra needs to be changed to fit Zerg's style, and giving it any kind of ability isn't really doing that.
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+10 HP
researchable +0.75 speed (both on and off creep)
Hydras are fixed.
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On March 16 2011 21:23 Jermstuddog wrote: +10 HP
researchable +0.75 speed (both on and off creep)
Hydras are fixed.
The more I think about this, the more realistic this actually seems for a change.
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Where exactly would +0.75 off speed put hydras in compaison with say, speed roaches? Cuz, that upgrade might still not increase hydra survivability versus FF+colossus combo right?
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The only thing i think that needs to be changed with Hydras is the speed they move, the damage is fine.
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.75 speed added, to both on creep and off creep movement, would put them at the same speed off creep as speed roaches (3), on creep they would be slightly faster then roaches with a speed of 4.125 vs a roach's speed of 3.9.
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On March 15 2011 11:02 Snoyarc wrote: I would like to see more Zergs do Quick Lair to Hydra vs Protoss and do drop/nydus then switch to mass roach once colossus tech gets up. So Hydras will still have a role in ZvP but not in other matchups... its sad because I would like to have a ground unit that could attack air...
So Quick Hydra+Drop/Nydus UNTIL Collossi hit the field...?
Boy, get your timings right. To make this effective it needs time and a ton of gas. Colossi will hit the field around the time this gets done. The only reason why we have a small timing window, where the P has only 1-2 Colossi maybe without range, is because we can maxout very cheap with roaches in addition to the Hydras. And what is quick lair? Nearly EVERY Zerg spends his first 100Gas on Ling speed, which is with no doubt a must have to survive early attacks. And the second 100 gas go into the lair... The only way to get Lair quicker is to put the first 100 Gas into Lair which is not viable at all: - Its even more weak to early attacks. - Your have basicly NO possibility to punish Protoss players for early mistakes. - You dont have the Gas income at the time the Lair finishs to support any lair tech units or upgrades.
Hydras have a role in ZvP but its so narrow, that u can also skip them and be succesfull and btw... Hydras can attack air WTF?!?
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