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On March 08 2011 19:22 Wolf wrote: Not every unit HAS to be used in SC2. If Hydras don't end up having a very important role over time, they'll be like Scouts in BW. Rarely used. So what?
The problem with this statement is that it's obvious that Z has the least options in terms of strategies and unit compositions in the game.
Zerg has the least amount of units, has very few "cool" units and upgrades. Half the upgrades are just for speed, great fun.
Now take in to the account that hydras are such a niche unit and the race feels very limited.
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On March 08 2011 17:01 Worm Shoes wrote: Hydras should be changed to an Armoured Unit to stop siege squish and colossi smash...
and maybe make the roach a light unit but increase the health and spawn with +X armour like in beta :D Making them armored would make them take more dmg from tanks and not change them vs colos.
Are you stupid?
User was temp banned for this post.
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For what it's worth, I feel like hydras should have a *slight* gas reduction and increase their range a little so protoss actually has to move their colossus into a vulnerable position to kill the hydra.
Right now 3-4 colossus can sit in a safe position near the back of a protoss army and instantly melt the hydras.
That's not even exaggerating. People say banelings hard counter marines, but tbh, I think colossus counter hydras much harder. At least you can split your marines, stim and run, etc. You honestly cant do that shit with hydra as they have no speed.
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On March 08 2011 20:43 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 17:01 Worm Shoes wrote: Hydras should be changed to an Armoured Unit to stop siege squish and colossi smash...
and maybe make the roach a light unit but increase the health and spawn with +X armour like in beta :D Making them armored would make them take more dmg from tanks and not change them vs colos. Are you stupid?
yes very,
But what i meant by that is that siege target roaches first in a battle so they can soak up the damage...and making hydra's armoured will give them a +1armour anyway which will effectively take less damage from a colossi no?
Hence the suggestion switch between light and armoured for roach and hydra
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I personally agree. It is a dying unit, and it does need some changes.
Really, the unit itself should be cheaper. Don't get me wrong, the Hydra is a powerful unit, but the thing about it is that even though it hits hard it has a glass chin. The things just go down way to fast. Making them cheaper could make losing them not have such a massive impact because of the investment.
The only other thing I can see, if they don't do that, is making them both faster and a little bulkier. Even give them a speed upgrade. Lord knows everything else for Zerg fucking has it. If they were faster I could even see people using them.
I still think though that the lack of the Lurker is the big thing. If there were lurkers then Terrans and Protoss would have to be more honest with their scouting, detection, the Zerg would have a reasonably timed Siege unit instead of very late game, and the Hydra could at least become something better. Right now it's like a retard running uphill.
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there were many threads about Hydras being too weak. What pisses me off the most is that the other 2 races' long range air+ground attack units are so good and versitle and microable and savable. Hydras hope to get in a good position to start attacking, and they die if they are getting focused down or are trying to retreat.
The only matchup where they are still quite good is ZvZ, however recently i ve experienced baneling drops which absolutely rape them, and mass roach only or with infestor support and abuse mobility of that.
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Well personally I think a lot of terran and protoss air plays are very undeveloped and thusly the hydra is left roleless
And yeah the infestor "buff" will have hydras at even more limbo, even vs air.
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Personally I think that too few Zerg actually get the burrow upgrade, which could save a few Hydras from dying with good micro, but which would force an opponent into spending resources to kill them. Sure the Hydras arent as tough as Roaches and dont have their burrowed movement or regenerative skills, but that makes burrow even more important to keep your investment alive.
The Hydra has awesome dps, but only very few Zerg ever bother with any drop play. Suuure the old "oh its so expensive to research" argument will be thrown at me, but Zerg has the fastest growing economy past the early game and resources should not matter that much. Its not like your opponents arent researching useful stuff. Drops are powerful and underused by Zerg players. Change that before whining about how useless your units are.
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On March 08 2011 21:15 Geo.Rion wrote: there were many threads about Hydras being too weak. What pisses me off the most is that the other 2 races' long range air+ground attack units are so good and versitle and microable and savable. Hydras hope to get in a good position to start attacking, and they die if they are getting focused down or are trying to retreat.
The only matchup where they are still quite good is ZvZ, however recently i ve experienced baneling drops which absolutely rape them, and mass roach only or with infestor support and abuse mobility of that.
Quote for truth, only skill that hydras take is patients but damn they take alot of it
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75+25
thats about the reason noone uses hydras
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On March 08 2011 21:59 Rabiator wrote: Personally I think that too few Zerg actually get the burrow upgrade, which could save a few Hydras from dying with good micro, but which would force an opponent into spending resources to kill them. Sure the Hydras arent as tough as Roaches and dont have their burrowed movement or regenerative skills, but that makes burrow even more important to keep your investment alive.
The Hydra has awesome dps, but only very few Zerg ever bother with any drop play. Suuure the old "oh its so expensive to research" argument will be thrown at me, but Zerg has the fastest growing economy past the early game and resources should not matter that much. Its not like your opponents arent researching useful stuff. Drops are powerful and underused by Zerg players. Change that before whining about how useless your units are.
Play Zerg, research burrow, tell me how useful it is for your hydras...
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I've played since the beta for about 1.5k games now. My winrate has been steadily increasing the less hydra's I used ( especially in ZvP, infact, my entire strategy involves how to NOT get hydra's at all but instead rely on sturdier units ).
They are just a really tricky unit. Too fragile and too expensive to put into a unit that has 80 hp, one more range than a roach, and most of all cannot easily retreat. Making hydra's in my opinion is only viable in ZvZ. But that is because they're the best ranged unit zerg has to offer ( hydra's wreck ultra's and air units ) not because they are so amazing cost wise.
So yeah, I do think the hydra is going to go extinct if there aren't any changes made to it. The thing is, would it matter if it wasn't used that much? I mean yes us zergs have less units to work with, but in the end comparing a roach to a hydra is like comparing a dragoon to a stalker, only slightly different in stats and basically ahve the same role.
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With bigger maps and better control I think soon we may see this trend reverse. Though I am not exactly sure how colossi damage works if it affects the units in the front/back of the target or if is just the straight line damage. Either way though this is also greatly affected by IMO the worst mechanic in the game (creep spread). It is just so crappy that to make your units into the "swarm race" they are supposed to be you must hope that the enemy doesn't get detection and go for your creep tumors.
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The hydra is pretty much the one reason why us protoss are building our deathballs in the first place. It sounds stupid but yeh if we go anything else then colossi +ht/voidray we lose any PvZ because of the hydra just shitting all over any gateway unit.
So lets throw something out there, less DPS but longer surviving? maybe alse give em +1 range on top of that, I think with these changes atleast PvZ would be a bit less hardcounter vs hardcounter
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On March 08 2011 22:14 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 21:59 Rabiator wrote: Personally I think that too few Zerg actually get the burrow upgrade, which could save a few Hydras from dying with good micro, but which would force an opponent into spending resources to kill them. Sure the Hydras arent as tough as Roaches and dont have their burrowed movement or regenerative skills, but that makes burrow even more important to keep your investment alive.
The Hydra has awesome dps, but only very few Zerg ever bother with any drop play. Suuure the old "oh its so expensive to research" argument will be thrown at me, but Zerg has the fastest growing economy past the early game and resources should not matter that much. Its not like your opponents arent researching useful stuff. Drops are powerful and underused by Zerg players. Change that before whining about how useless your units are. Play Zerg, research burrow, tell me how useful it is for your hydras... Dont you think that it is better to burrow your Hydras and Drones instead of having them lifted off by Phoenixes? That way you can actually get a sufficient number of Hydras to take down the Phoenixes instead of losing them in twos and threes ...
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I don't think the Hydra is underused or will be useless after 1.3 goes through. I don't see him dead, only misused by certain players.
In ZvZ the Hydra/Roach play is the safest way to play and will be in the future. When Fungal becomes a projectile, Mutas will be reinvented in ZvZ so Hydras will still have pretty much the same role.
In ZvT Hydras are rarely seen due to Siegetanks but a Lategame Army can consist of roach Hydra Infestor or Broodlord Hydra. Also Hydras are one option to deal with these pesky Banshee Marauder or Hellion Marauder playstyles.
In ZvP the Hydralisk is one of the most important units in my opinion. I'm not a fan of Hydrapushes but the hydra fills the role of dps perfectly. Everything except vast numbers of Collossi or Voidrays can be shut down with hydras and again lategame Broodlord/Hydra is prolly the best unitcomposition toi have.
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On March 08 2011 22:37 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 22:14 Jermstuddog wrote:On March 08 2011 21:59 Rabiator wrote: Personally I think that too few Zerg actually get the burrow upgrade, which could save a few Hydras from dying with good micro, but which would force an opponent into spending resources to kill them. Sure the Hydras arent as tough as Roaches and dont have their burrowed movement or regenerative skills, but that makes burrow even more important to keep your investment alive.
The Hydra has awesome dps, but only very few Zerg ever bother with any drop play. Suuure the old "oh its so expensive to research" argument will be thrown at me, but Zerg has the fastest growing economy past the early game and resources should not matter that much. Its not like your opponents arent researching useful stuff. Drops are powerful and underused by Zerg players. Change that before whining about how useless your units are. Play Zerg, research burrow, tell me how useful it is for your hydras... Dont you think that it is better to burrow your Hydras and Drones instead of having them lifted off by Phoenixes? That way you can actually get a sufficient number of Hydras to take down the Phoenixes instead of losing them in twos and threes ...
And what do you expect Hydras to do underground? Take a siesta and regen health while the rest of the army dies?
Burrowing drones of course is awesome against all forms of harass but you just don't have the gas to get burrow that fast. Gas is very important for a lot of lair tech upgrades like roach speed and hydra range.
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mmmm hydra owns ZvP atm, so i guess we will not stop seeing the bane of every toss unit except of collossi zealot and templar.
And sorry to disagree with 1.3 roaches will be less used as there are more mutas, so more hydras and more banelings to conter them, because fungal won't hit banelings that well anymore.
BW was so muta heavy because hydras were slow, now they are damn fast on creep so perfect against muta play.
I think the reason why hydras are normal speed off creep is that otherwise a retreat would be impossible, and their damage is so huge, that they would simply rip an army to bits. Like stimmed bio just without the stim.
Speed lings make the early attack on a zerg already risky as if he overpowers you no unit will return home. If hydras were as fast off creep any attack on a zerg would mean if you lose the fight no chance to retreat would be there.
So Hydra is totally fine and such an awesome unit, and its used in pro zvp more and more regularly now to deal with the toss, that just goes mass blink stalker against the mass roach corrupter cloud that was build to deal with the colossi and if the zerg doesn't react to this he is doomed.
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On March 08 2011 22:51 FeyFey wrote: mmmm hydra owns ZvP atm, so i guess we will not stop seeing the bane of every toss unit except of collossi zealot and templar.
And sorry to disagree with 1.3 roaches will be less used as there are less mutas, so more hydras and more banelings to conter them, because fungal won't hit banelings that well anymore.
BW was so muta heavy because hydras were slow, now they are damn fast on creep so perfect against muta play.
I think the reason why hydras are normal speed off creep is that otherwise a retreat would be impossible, and their damage is so huge, that they would simply rip an army to bits. Like stimmed bio just without the stim.
Speed lings make the early attack on a zerg already risky as if he overpowers you no unit will return home. If hydras were as fast off creep any attack on a zerg would mean if you lose the fight no chance to retreat would be there.
So Hydra is totally fine and such an awesome unit, and its used in pro zvp more and more regularly now to deal with the toss, that just goes mass blink stalker against the mass roach corrupter cloud that was build to deal with the colossi and if the zerg doesn't react to this he is doomed.
Why would there be less Roaches and less Mutas in 1.3 ZvZ?
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On March 08 2011 22:41 frucisky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 22:37 Rabiator wrote:On March 08 2011 22:14 Jermstuddog wrote:On March 08 2011 21:59 Rabiator wrote: Personally I think that too few Zerg actually get the burrow upgrade, which could save a few Hydras from dying with good micro, but which would force an opponent into spending resources to kill them. Sure the Hydras arent as tough as Roaches and dont have their burrowed movement or regenerative skills, but that makes burrow even more important to keep your investment alive.
The Hydra has awesome dps, but only very few Zerg ever bother with any drop play. Suuure the old "oh its so expensive to research" argument will be thrown at me, but Zerg has the fastest growing economy past the early game and resources should not matter that much. Its not like your opponents arent researching useful stuff. Drops are powerful and underused by Zerg players. Change that before whining about how useless your units are. Play Zerg, research burrow, tell me how useful it is for your hydras... Dont you think that it is better to burrow your Hydras and Drones instead of having them lifted off by Phoenixes? That way you can actually get a sufficient number of Hydras to take down the Phoenixes instead of losing them in twos and threes ... And what do you expect Hydras to do underground? Take a siesta and regen health while the rest of the army dies? Burrowing drones of course is awesome against all forms of harass but you just don't have the gas to get burrow that fast. Gas is very important for a lot of lair tech upgrades like roach speed and hydra range.
I guess what he means is that you can do some pretty nice burrow-micro. You only need to save 1 hydra to be nearly cost-effecient. You dont need to burrow all of your hydras, just burrow one of them and it wont die unless your enemy has detection. I dont agree with you not having the gas. Most good zerg players go roaches with burrow immediately after lair vs protoss to defend against 5-gate/6-gate attacks.
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