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hydras seem too fragile and slow for too little gain, and have no real advantage over the roach, excepting as for use in place of spore colonies
i wish i could call them viable, they are my favourite unit, but they seem as useless as ultralisks
+ Show Spoiler [if i were balancing] +i would swap the hydra and the stalkers roles, slow the stalker down and let it keep blink/let it be stronger but build for as long as zealots to compensate for stronger 4 gates, and speed the hydra up somewhat, it also might need to be cheaper or something
seriously, i think hydras could have the same price as roaches with no real consequence as the game is now
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On March 09 2011 02:43 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 02:16 dark fury wrote:
people forget that hydras affect the meta game of PvZ even if you dont use them, because the fact that zerg CAN get hydras forces the protoss to tech for AoE. which happens to be what they would do anyways
Not unless they 4 gate or 6 gate you cause they see you spamming roaches.
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On March 09 2011 02:39 vOdToasT wrote:
As long as it stays useful in ZvP, I'm happy. They're only useful in one matchup in StarCraft 1, you know.
They were crucial both in ZvT and PvZ.
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i voted for dying and yes it can not remain because the hydra feels to god dam slow of creep i do not think it needs a massive change just a small extra bit of speed or something maybe an upgrade would be nice even vs protoss once they get forcefield there dead and they cant get into position fast enough when the protoss has colossus. thats how i feel about it anyways
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On March 09 2011 01:59 MooseyFate wrote:
I think a lot of people are getting too caught up in the Stats of the Hydra (DPS/Move Speed) instead of looking at the point of the OP (at least as I understood it) which is that Hydras don't currently fit well into any viable Zerg army composition.
There is always a better choice and the better choice usually ends up being cheaper/faster to produce AND usually works better in a large army engagement against the typical large armies fielded by your opponent.
IMO a change to the base Hydra stats would cause too many balance problems to arise; however I think a researchable upgrade for the Hydra OR another Zerg unit that allows them to have better synergy when mixed in with the usual Zerg army composition would open up some doors for new styles of Zerg play.
And Im pretty sure EVERYONE on this forum wants to see something new from Zerg players as a whole before Heart of the Swarm is released.
i really dont know why eveyrone is asking zerg players to try new things.... this has been discussed TO DEATH!!!!
what unit combos would you like me to try???? IVE TRIED THEM ALL!!!!! hydras are OKAY at what they do. they buy you time. you can build a few to buy time but if you overcommit in the slightest your FUCKED. 4 coll and a handful of stalker sentry beat 200 army of hydras ez pz.
zerg only has 9 units compared to terrans like ~15 (one of these units is corrupter = basically useless in zvt unless they go BC, another is hydra ><) so why dont YOU start doing somthing different. terrans do the exact same tank marine timing push or hellion --> banshee strat every fucking game, and noone talks shit about them.... except for me, and nearly every other zerg and protoss i know.
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Hydras are pretty bad but not even if I stretch myself I don't see them being obsolete in zvp ever.
This is because you can kill protoss with a good hydra push, they are sometimes needed against void+gates rushes and hydra drops has been proven quite strong many times in GSL and IEM.
Against terran they will sometimes be produced against double starport but other then that I only see them as a finishing move in rare situations.
For example after huge battle remake only hydras if all you don't want terran to be able to float his third/forth back home etc.
Overall zerg needs some love but you don't buff units because they are bad. Starcraft as a game is fine with having bad units imo.
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On March 09 2011 03:07 Patriot.dlk wrote:
Overall zerg needs some love but you don't buff units because they are bad. Starcraft as a game is fine with having bad units imo.
1) there not calling for a buff, the op is asking if they need a CHANGE change does not equal buff.
2) why the FUCK else would you buff a unit???
3) the OP never said hydras were a bad unit, he said they dont fit in with zergs playstyle at all. but seriously, why would you want a bad unit in the game. unless your a troll.
User was banned for this post.
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hm... right, 1.3 patch is kind of an indirect nerf for hydras.
one of the great things with hydra was their range, so you could attack units held down by fungal.
with the decreased time, this tactic is not legit anymore.
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On March 09 2011 02:39 vOdToasT wrote:
As long as it stays useful in ZvP, I'm happy. They're only useful in one matchup in StarCraft 1, you know.
yeah actually in sc1 they were a crucial unit in zvp and zvt (5hatch hydra anyone), not seeing nearly as much use in zvz ONLY because they only did 50% dmg to mutas. however, they were built occasionally in zvz has a means to expand easier and thus gain an eco advantage.
all in all, your wrong.
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On March 09 2011 03:03 charlie420247 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 01:59 MooseyFate wrote:
I think a lot of people are getting too caught up in the Stats of the Hydra (DPS/Move Speed) instead of looking at the point of the OP (at least as I understood it) which is that Hydras don't currently fit well into any viable Zerg army composition.
There is always a better choice and the better choice usually ends up being cheaper/faster to produce AND usually works better in a large army engagement against the typical large armies fielded by your opponent.
IMO a change to the base Hydra stats would cause too many balance problems to arise; however I think a researchable upgrade for the Hydra OR another Zerg unit that allows them to have better synergy when mixed in with the usual Zerg army composition would open up some doors for new styles of Zerg play.
And Im pretty sure EVERYONE on this forum wants to see something new from Zerg players as a whole before Heart of the Swarm is released. i really dont know why eveyrone is asking zerg players to try new things.... this has been discussed TO DEATH!!!! what unit combos would you like me to try???? IVE TRIED THEM ALL!!!!! hydras are OKAY at what they do. they buy you time. you can build a few to buy time but if you overcommit in the slightest your FUCKED. 4 coll and a handful of stalker sentry beat 200 army of hydras ez pz. zerg only has 9 units compared to terrans like ~15 (one of these units is corrupter = basically useless in zvt unless they go BC, another is hydra ><) so why dont YOU start doing somthing different. terrans do the exact same tank marine timing push or hellion --> banshee strat every fucking game, and noone talks shit about them.... except for me, and nearly every other zerg and protoss i know.
I actually very much agree with this. People are suggesting we try other things. We HAVE been trying things because over and over again Zerg has shown itself to be extremely susceptible to really basic attacks by Terran and Protoss.
Seriously, what serious developments have Protoss and Terran dealt with that have made them significantly change their playstyle? Nothing. Terran is still doing the exact same thing. After 1.3 I'm actually afraid that mass marine will be even stronger vs zerg now that they can dodge fungals.
Terran can make marines even against its direct counters. Actually everyone can do that. That's GOOD. That's cool. That makes the game interesting. If the Hydralisk was faster than the colossus, then it might actually be somewhat useful even while colossi are out because it's more mobile. But right now, the answer to Colossus is "Don't Make Hydras" and that is a dull game.
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I have never understood why hydras can't be significantly faster off creep. Zerg is supposed to be the mobile race. I dno't see how fast hydras would break any matchup.
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I think turning the Hydra into a normal unit instead of "light" may fix it, maybe a small speed buff
other than that Im always happy when a Z goes hydra, because frankly there so easy to counter.
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On March 09 2011 03:10 charlie420247 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 03:07 Patriot.dlk wrote:
Overall zerg needs some love but you don't buff units because they are bad. Starcraft as a game is fine with having bad units imo. 1) there not calling for a buff, the op is asking if they need a CHANGE change does not equal buff. 2) why the FUCK else would you buff a unit??? 3) the OP never said hydras were a bad unit, he said they dont fit in with zergs playstyle at all. but seriously, why would you want a bad unit in the game. unless your a troll.
1. Yes they could change the hydra into having a completely different function that alters it into having more use. However for me that's a "How I would change the game" aspect and I think those kind of discussions are useless thus in this context I can only see change as buff.
2. You buff units to buff the race, unsure how you could not grasp this.
3. He said they are a dying unit = they lack a real purpose. Who said I wanted bad units in the game? I said you don't buff units because they are bad, this is because all blizzard should care about is balance between the races and good mirror matches and they should let the players find uses for the units.
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On March 09 2011 03:10 charlie420247 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 03:07 Patriot.dlk wrote:
Overall zerg needs some love but you don't buff units because they are bad. Starcraft as a game is fine with having bad units imo. 1) there not calling for a buff, the op is asking if they need a CHANGE change does not equal buff. 2) why the FUCK else would you buff a unit??? 3) the OP never said hydras were a bad unit, he said they dont fit in with zergs playstyle at all. but seriously, why would you want a bad unit in the game. unless your a troll.
Just my 2 cents. You buff/nerf a unit to balance the game, not the unit. Look at the reaper. It got nerfed into oblivion. Does it need a buff? No, because Terran are strong enough without it.
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On March 09 2011 02:47 Pepe- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 00:38 Jermstuddog wrote:On March 09 2011 00:16 Pepe- wrote:
Hydra is fine, its the Roach rangebuff that made the Hydra less needed. Worst mis-information out there. Hydras are shitty cuz hydras are shitty, roaches have nothing to do with it. That's like trying to claim that Colossus make Stalkers pointless. There is no correlation between the units what-so ever. In fact, the roach buff should make hydras MORE viable as they share upgrades and roaches are actually decent now. You can play mass Roaches till lategame zvp while Hydra/Roach should be the choice, not? Roach should be the lowrange "tank" unit while Hydras should do the damage, now many Roaches do well dps per cost aswell. Range buff was imo the wrong kind of buff.
You know why Marine Marauder work so well ?
They both move at the same speed.
Making hydra roach instead of pure roaches is detriment to your mobility which is bad everywhere beside in ZvP before colossus and storm. And well, pure gateway is bad pass earlygame while hydra are a midgame unit.
Zerg army is weak by nature. They need to be able to move fast to balance that.
I'd never understand the design idea of the new Hydra. I mean.. It's in contradiction with every zerg patern.
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On March 09 2011 02:47 Pepe- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 00:38 Jermstuddog wrote:On March 09 2011 00:16 Pepe- wrote:
Hydra is fine, its the Roach rangebuff that made the Hydra less needed. Worst mis-information out there. Hydras are shitty cuz hydras are shitty, roaches have nothing to do with it. That's like trying to claim that Colossus make Stalkers pointless. There is no correlation between the units what-so ever. In fact, the roach buff should make hydras MORE viable as they share upgrades and roaches are actually decent now. You can play mass Roaches till lategame zvp while Hydra/Roach should be the choice, not? Roach should be the lowrange "tank" unit while Hydras should do the damage, now many Roaches do well dps per cost aswell. Range buff was imo the wrong kind of buff.
Exactly. You almost have to play mass roaches really. Sentries totally shut down hydras. Colossi totally shut down hydras. Blink stalkers can just run away.
You can't really do hydralisk pressure against a protoss. If you want to attack and he has sentries, he can hold you off until colossi appear using sentries.
Code A RO8 spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler +Look at Losira, he went pretty much pure roach, didn't even make a hydra den vs HuK and used the roaches to dominate against the sentry heavy early composition and then kept the pressure up, while colossi didn't manage to be particularly effective.
If he'd invested in hydralisks, he would have had less roaches, and the hydras would have just been shut down at many stages, and made his army much much less mobile. Hydras would have seriously hurt him vs a mainly stalkr/immo composition.
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Zergs everywhere should be trying to make this build work for them in ZvP, feels alot better than roach, hydra, corruptor. (and it still includes the hydra).
It's basically the only way i play ZvP now.. (~3000 diamond)
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You just wait untill lurkers come with heart of the swarm. ^^
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how about nerfing hydras (+ make them faster off creep) and making them T1 unit, AND slightly buffing roaches and making them T2 unit? To me, as ex-bw player, the current state of zerg just seems so wrong. I think it would also solve many issues zerg players are complaining about.
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On March 08 2011 10:32 NoXious90 wrote:
Here's an easy way to fix zerg/make them better. Revert Hydras back to the way they were in BW (tier 1), bump Roaches up to tier 2 thus giving them a buff and, finally, bring lurkers back.
This is exactly what I would like too.
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EPT
