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United States15275 Posts
On March 09 2011 08:46 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 07:47 CosmicSpiral wrote:On March 09 2011 06:41 freetgy wrote: maybe get more queens early on and spread creep faster. Hydras on creep can kite most of P Army except colossus. Get obs, kill creep. Get raven, kill creep. Hydras can't kite stalkers. no, but they are already cost effective against Stalker by design... 1 Hydra (100/50) is on par with 1 Stalker (125/50) sure Stalker has twice hp, but Hydra has twice the dps a stalker makes like 6.9 dps against light / 9.7 dps against armored. while Hydras do 14.5 dps against everything while costing LESS. Colossus is one of the only ways to deal with mass hydras. now coming here and saying Hydras need a buff because they melt to colossus makes absolutely no sense when Hydras already shreed 90% of everything Protoss can build. And Hydra is already as fast as 80% of Protoss Army (2.25) + has the creep advantage. Hydra may be slow for Zerg standards, but definitly not for game standards.
You're envisioning a mystical perfect scenario where stalkers and hydras face each other in 1v1 fights.
Stalkers are faster off of creep (which takes quite a while to spread even if you are megagosu). They also regenerate shields a lot faster than hydras regenerate health, which means that pure stalker vs pure hydra will favor stalkers as long as there is sufficient micro. They share equivalent range even with the Grooved Spines upgrade. On top of all this Stalkers can Blink.
Also consider the fact that Hydras need a single individual building that doesn't open any more options on the tech tree. Cyber core is necessary for all higher tech so stalkers are an option, not a commitment.
Being so much faster on creep just reinforces the idea that hydras are a defensive unit. Creep only spreads so far before a good player starts killing tumors off.
Hydras are good against gateway units, not spectacular. They get countered by forcefields, Guardian Shield, blink play. And once you get enough hydras to pose a massive threat, Protoss will have most likely transitioned into HT/Colossus play.
HTs counters mass hydra hard.
On March 09 2011 08:59 Belial88 wrote: I disagree completely, I feel like the Hydra is actually becoming more relevant, that it is rising fast. Day9's Mass Queen funday monday showcased how amazing hydras are, you simply need creep, and there have been too many games to name in the recent GSL and sc2casts.com where hydras are becoming the key unit. Take elfi vs Dimaga for a most recent example of how amazing hydras are, they just need to be used correctly. And note that hydras are actually pretty quick units when on creep, allowing for flanking even.
He won because his hydras essentially had 160 health through Transfusions; the same result would have occurred if he had used roaches or mutalisks.
Also that was a Funday Monday. Just because people came up with inventive strategies in response to his limitations doesn't mean they are viable in high level play (and many of those strategies worked because there were not high-level games).
On March 09 2011 08:59 Belial88 wrote:The hydra was never broken, it really did come down to metagame - players before didn't grasp the full importance of creep. Just look at any GSL game of a Zerg in season 1, to the current season. Even Idra and Nestea rarely spread creep farther than a single tumor from the expansion. And we haven't even seen major Nydus usage yet, with a few games here and there really underlying the amazing possibilities they open up (hopetorture vs fruitdealer)
Buffs of 10-15hp were tried in the beta, and it was broken. The hydra is a perfectly fine unit, people just didn't realize creep was so important. Now, people are beginning to move mass overlords with speed with their hydras, you are starting to see queen drops for tumors at the front lines.
With good reason. The nydus network alone cost 150/200 and a subsequent 100/100 for every nydus worm. It's like a DT rush: a significant gas investment that relies on surprise to be effective. Are you surprised that most Zerg players are not particularly confident in such tactics at the moment?
He's discussing the hydra's role within Zerg unit composition, and he believes that it does not inhabit a unique role worthy of recognition. "Buffing" may not solve the issue.
On March 09 2011 08:59 Belial88 wrote:Why don't you use unit tester and see how the hydra works with creep, and without. You'll realize they just aren't being used correctly, as cliche as that might sound. We are also seeing a similar metagame change with the hellion - no longer used as a quick build 2 against Zerg (or 5 for crazy reactor instead of blue flame!!11!) for harassment and then never make them again. Instead, now we are seeing them used aggressively against Protoss with the new emergence of mech, which is still in it's infantile stages (take iNControl vs DDE) as well as in TvT, with the many recent games with TLO, IMMVP, Jinro, etc... where Hellions are extremely useful, not just in a early timing attack (a trend started about 2 months ago) but in full combat.
Hellion play is evolving in response to current trends in TvT and PvT play, not because people "figured out how to use them".
On March 09 2011 08:59 Belial88 wrote:Ravens, Archons, Motherships, infestors, phoenixes, carriers even (PainUser vs Kiwikaki) are all becoming relevant units, but people either don't know how to use them or are just starting to.
Raven, Infestor and Phoenix play were all relevant in the past. Some of them fell out of relevance once the metagame changed in response.
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On March 09 2011 10:52 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 09:59 Xova wrote: Maybe I want reapers back. Should I make a post? Is this how people approach balance (yes, I am using that word) nowadays? He gets to have this, so I should get to have that back?? Why should he get this if I don't get anything? That is really the most awful way to approach things, as the goal of tweaking the game's mechanics is to have a better and more balanced game, and that is regardless of who gets what in the process. Some races needs more attention, some do not, that's fact.
Maybe I'll want motherships back post patch. I think that the game would benefit from having every unit having a purpose, and I don't think it'd hurt to buff Hydras first. I think the speed upgrade wouldn't hurt. Alternatively, if Blizzard puts lurkers back in once HotS comes out, that could be the needed buff.
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I like what idra said about switching roles between hydras and roaches, make hydras cheaper, weaker, faster and able to be made pre-lair, roach can maybe go to 100/25 or remain the same after lair only as a meaty 2nd tier unit, this pretty much makes it so zerg has a reliable safe way of dealing with so much of the strong air builds for example that causes all of these balance problems with zerg early on, instead of tweaking everything else around zerg, just tweak zerg.
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HotS will probably address this issue.
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On March 09 2011 11:05 junemermaid wrote: HotS will probably address this issue.
But this is the problem, a competitive multiplayer game such as starcraft shouldnt require an expansion to make units viable. This is the entire reason behind zerg QQ regarding various things, all teams should have an approximately equal chance to win at an appoximately similar skill level. (at least in 1's)
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I worry that we're pinning too many hopes on HotS. I've heard claims of at least 20 different Zerg tweaks that will "be addressed in HotS." Let's not assume that HotS will rescue us from our race.
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On March 09 2011 11:33 zarepath wrote: I worry that we're pinning too many hopes on HotS. I've heard claims of at least 20 different Zerg tweaks that will "be addressed in HotS." Let's not assume that HotS will rescue us from our race.
Only the replacement of Dustin Browder and/or the development team moving away from gimmicks will change that.
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Like many ppl have mentioned, it would be more ideal if hydras and roaches switched their tech tree with appropraite nerfs and buffs, but there is prolly no way in hell blizzard will actually make that switch after this game has been released for quiet a bit now.
At this point I hope they can at least provide the speed upgrade and make Zerg more interesting in HotS
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Hydra/Roach tech switch was suggested in forums during Beta and blizzard didn't do it. It seems to make a lot of sense but I guess now at this point its too late. Going forward the only role I can see for hydras post mid game is as a unit for dropping/nydusing onto enemy bases to harass since that seems to be the way to use a high dps, slow moving, squishy units. However mutalisk and banelings seem better suited for harassing. So it seems that apart from countering early protoss gateway balls they have very limited use.
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It really just makes absolutely no sense to what they did to the Hydralisk the more you look at it. Almost everything in this game got some sort of damage boost and health boost. Yet..
SC1 Hydralisk 80 HP 75 Minerals 25 Gas 1 Supply Tier 1 Availability Range+Speed upgrade available
SC2 Hydralisk 80 HP 100 Minerals 50 Gas 2 Supply Tier 2 Availability Range upgrade available
Granted, it's not completely right to compare the two units, but still by just looking at it, SC2's hydra cost more, uses more supply, available later in the game, and doesn't have a speed upgrade option (not to mention same HP). Granted, their DPS is a bit better, but it doesn't even matter when so many core units just evaporate hydras. Even though SC1 hydra did half damage to small units, they still had the speed to allow them to retreat and to adjust later. So the DPS reduction wasn't a huge deal. Now you basically have to commit to early attacks since it's near impossible to retreat with hydras.
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On March 09 2011 11:00 CosmicSpiral wrote:Hydras are good against gateway units, not spectacular. They get countered by forcefields, Guardian Shield, blink play. Blink play is absolutely slaughtered by hydras, even with superb micro. This has been seen in the GSL more than once. Hydras kill stalkers too quickly to even blink them back. Don't spread lies sir. Idra scrap station can't remember the opponent or GSL as one example. I know there are more. Your choice is to blink before a stalker takes damage or after a stalker is dead(obviously this doesn't work).
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On March 09 2011 10:29 Rucky wrote:you're limiting micro to dancing...that's as obvious as saying you shouldn't micro against a photon cannon.
speed increase allows your hydras to move in and out of battle as well as dash in to harass expansions and run away reasonably quick. you can choose your fights and not be committed with the attack. because they are so expensive and low in hp, if you can at least run away with them, you can have them fight a better battle later on.
now here's a little bit of a micro lesson as well. if you can pull your hydras back more quickly than now, the enemy will have to 1) stop attacking your hydras and attack the tanking roaches OR 2) chase your hydras. In 1) you can then attack with your hydras high dps and in 2) your roaches will get free shots at the enemy.
Squishiness can be compensated with more health or speed and micro.
Two answers to choose from but one increases the dynamics of the game while the other just adds another A move unit to the game. If you are in a battle and you micro back your hydras so the collossi are forced to kill roaches... so what? What use is a DPS unit that is not DPSing? He will burn down your roaches, and then a-move to victory as your now tankless hydras attempt to defend your expo only to die instantly.
Zerg cannot harass expansions with such expensive units. Forcefields are the ultimate defense; they don't care how fast you move and if the toss uses them properly you WILL lose the majority of your force. Even roaches (who are pretty fast) cannot pick and choose fights with P; if you get in range to where that is a choice you are in range of getting your army cut in half. Zerg harassing P's structures is usually done via doom drops (which don't care about your hydra speed), after crushing a deathball (in which case you have already won; you could harass with drones for all it matters at that point) or with crazily fast, cheap units (speedling runby, formerly muta harass but we don't see those much anymore). Harassing a terran expo with ground units is kind of a joke as well.
Keep in mind I didn't say that buffing hydra speed would be a bad thing... I said it wouldn't be enough to give hydras a real role based on the current ZvT or ZvP trends.
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I feel alot of the units in Starcraft 2 don't fit the "ideal" role that they were designed for, and the hydra is one of them. I just feel like when I play against Z roaches are a much more cost effective unit and Hydras die too fast to do any damage. They definitely need some tweaking but some of the people here are freaking out too much about it.
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On March 09 2011 11:21 BordZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 11:05 junemermaid wrote: HotS will probably address this issue. But this is the problem, a competitive multiplayer game such as starcraft shouldnt require an expansion to make units viable. This is the entire reason behind zerg QQ regarding various things, all teams should have an approximately equal chance to win at an appoximately similar skill level. (at least in 1's)
Yes, but it is very hard for the balance team to extrapolate where the meta-game six months in the future. As it was, the hydra was getting a lot of screen time in ZvZ/P during beta & post release.
If it continues to get less usage, I would hope the balance team would remedy this eventually, either by making a real niche for the hydra that fits in with the zerg theme or editing its role significantly with an expansion. However, keep in mind that this is probably the only zerg unit that has this problem (of being "worthless"... well not worthless, but very limited in scope and use). All other units have a large role they play.
Compare this with Terran (BC, Reaper) and Protoss (Mothership, Carrier), and its not such a bleak picture.
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On March 09 2011 13:09 WickedBit wrote: Hydra/Roach tech switch was suggested in forums during Beta and blizzard didn't do it. It seems to make a lot of sense but I guess now at this point its too late. Going forward the only role I can see for hydras post mid game is as a unit for dropping/nydusing onto enemy bases to harass since that seems to be the way to use a high dps, slow moving, squishy units. However mutalisk and banelings seem better suited for harassing. So it seems that apart from countering early protoss gateway balls they have very limited use.
No it doesn't make sense. ZvZ would become baneling wars, there would be no unit to counter them as Hydras are light. ZvT you would have no early unit to stop early reapers or early hellions. And yes, there are some decent reaper openings that can cripple zerg if he doesn't open roaches. ZvP, 4 gate would own zergs without making lots of spine crawlers, roaches are absolutely needed to fend off a 4 gate.
Also, Zerg has Queens at T1 for AA why do they need hydras at T1? It makes no sense, air builds would become pointless and I don't think that's fair. Changing tech trees is not needed to balance this game, if anything it would introduce more problems. There needs to be a simple change, like giving Hydra the +1 range upgrade automatically or giving them a speed upgrade.
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On March 09 2011 13:45 cHaNg-sTa wrote: It really just makes absolutely no sense to what they did to the Hydralisk the more you look at it. Almost everything in this game got some sort of damage boost and health boost. Yet..
SC1 Hydralisk 80 HP 75 Minerals 25 Gas 1 Supply Tier 1 Availability Range+Speed upgrade available
SC2 Hydralisk 80 HP 100 Minerals 50 Gas 2 Supply Tier 2 Availability Range upgrade available
Granted, it's not completely right to compare the two units, but still by just looking at it, SC2's hydra cost more, uses more supply, available later in the game, and doesn't have a speed upgrade option (not to mention same HP). Granted, their DPS is a bit better, but it doesn't even matter when so many core units just evaporate hydras. Even though SC1 hydra did half damage to small units, they still had the speed to allow them to retreat and to adjust later. So the DPS reduction wasn't a huge deal. Now you basically have to commit to early attacks since it's near impossible to retreat with hydras.
i believe you are forgetting a few things. sc2 hydralisk more dps free speed upgrade (overlords can spread creep at tier 2, no upgrade required) light armor class meaning it takes less damage from marauders, stalkers, immortals etc. compared to roaches)
i suppose to build on this because people will still complain. more dps compared to sc1 version. get the overlord speed upgrade (100/100), drop creep, and set on move command on top of hydras. they will follow hydras around dropping creep whenever the hydra stops giving it a speed bonus. i used to see it all the time in beta, but people have lost their creativity :/
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so we have to wait 1 whole year for HOTS to come out just to balance the game? thats ludicrous
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On March 09 2011 14:26 koolaid1990 wrote: so we have to wait 1 whole year for HOTS to come out just to balance the game? thats ludicrous
It's really not. There isn't a magical wand you can wave to fix everything. Shit takes time.
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On March 09 2011 14:26 KillerPlague wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 13:45 cHaNg-sTa wrote: It really just makes absolutely no sense to what they did to the Hydralisk the more you look at it. Almost everything in this game got some sort of damage boost and health boost. Yet..
SC1 Hydralisk 80 HP 75 Minerals 25 Gas 1 Supply Tier 1 Availability Range+Speed upgrade available
SC2 Hydralisk 80 HP 100 Minerals 50 Gas 2 Supply Tier 2 Availability Range upgrade available
Granted, it's not completely right to compare the two units, but still by just looking at it, SC2's hydra cost more, uses more supply, available later in the game, and doesn't have a speed upgrade option (not to mention same HP). Granted, their DPS is a bit better, but it doesn't even matter when so many core units just evaporate hydras. Even though SC1 hydra did half damage to small units, they still had the speed to allow them to retreat and to adjust later. So the DPS reduction wasn't a huge deal. Now you basically have to commit to early attacks since it's near impossible to retreat with hydras. i believe you are forgetting a few things. sc2 hydralisk more dps free speed upgrade (overlords can spread creep at tier 2, no upgrade required) light armor class meaning it takes less damage from marauders, stalkers, immortals etc. compared to roaches) i suppose to build on this because people will still complain. more dps compared to sc1 version. get the overlord speed upgrade (100/100), drop creep, and set on move command on top of hydras. they will follow hydras around dropping creep whenever the hydra stops giving it a speed bonus. i used to see it all the time in beta, but people have lost their creativity :/
I already mentioned how SC2 Hydra has more dps and that doesn't come close to outweighing the disadvantages the hydras have now. And trust me, people would rather have a speed upgrade rather than having overlords move around the map with the hydra and dropping creep. It's kinda silly to state that it's a "free speed upgrade" when you need to upgrade overlord speed, adjust them on the battle field which is limited in area, hard to position creep well, and not to mention just putting overlords at risk in general.
SC1 hydra also took less damage from dragoons, firebats, vultures, etc. So.. I don't think it's really much of a difference. Not to mention the option to morph into a Lurker.
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Replace Hydras with Lurkers, or give them some free burrow tech, and make Fungal Growth unstackable (i.e., once you catch units in a FG, ya can't cast another one). Mostly because it is a stun and its damage is very strong at the moment.
I wish hydras were made into lurkers.
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