|
Hydras are amazing in ZvP, but they are a one time deal and that's about it. They deal with mass air openings, blink stalkers and any form of 6 gate really well. They also work great in doom drop timings off 2 base, where you just get a lot of hydras. The drop is really only effective against FFE or 3 gate sentry expand because your opponent is behind on tech in both cases otherwise the typical 4 gate or even 1 base colossi will roll over a hydra drop push. The hydra is only effective up to a certain point, and then just get steam rolled, from that point on there is no real reason to use hydras when you can spam roaches.
It sucks though, the hydra is such a great unit but it just completely fails at it's job. Why get a GtA slow as hell unit when you can just get corrupters later in the game? Roaches obviously fulfill the mass ground unit so hydras don't really have a place except when you need GtA early on. But I fear blizzard will never buff this unit or change it's tier because of the Queen. Having Queen and hydra at both T1 would shut down so much Air play and I think it's fine to see 1 base air. Queens already deal remarkably well against 1 base air builds, so having hydras also on T1 would just be redundant. Buffing them as a T2 unit also doesn't seem likely because they are incredibly strong at the right timings. Like I said, a drop or even nydus hydra push is very effective but only at a certain point in the game, if they were any stronger then hydra pushes would be used in ZvP and just roll over toss all day.
All in all, I have no idea how they would rebalance the hydra. Hell even reapers are seeing usage in TvP and TvZ and BC's are used in TvT, motherships are starting to be used that leaves the only really underused units as the Carrier and Hydra but I'm pretty sure we'll see uses for Carriers as the game evolves.
|
On March 08 2011 12:42 annul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 09:06 Mailing wrote:After 1.3, Hydra will never be seen in ZvZ again. Infestors and their + damage to armored will take over their DPS role IMO. This will also be the same for void rays and stalkers.... hydra just don't live long enough for their DPS to matter. Bring THESE back. waaaat. how do you get the classic campaign into sc2? the real question here, is why is there medics in mission 3 of the original sc campaign ?
|
Maybe it's not the hydra's fault. Blizzard has made the roach do everything the hydra can, except shoot air. Maybe roaches need a dps nerf to become more of a tank unit and the hydra a dps unit, which I think was Blizzard's original plan.
|
United States7166 Posts
On March 08 2011 10:35 StrifeCro wrote: I've recently done a ton of testing with hydras in ZvP.
Roaches are almost certainly better vs gateway units after their specific upgrades, any kind of surface area problems because roaches are 4 range/hydras 6 range is resolved by using burrow movement underneath forcefields.
In almost any kind of battle vs collosus, roach/corruptor is better than mixing in roach/hydra/corruptor. Even after you get tier 3 for broodlords, roach/broodlord is much stronger than hydra/broodlord vs gateway/collosus up to the point that even 1:1 roaches are better usually in that combo.
The only reason to make hydras is versus voidrays as anti air and versus immortals. Thing is hydras are pretty unusable off of creep and on creep queens are much better as anti air anyways versus void rays. Burrow movement roach armies beat immortal + gateway units similar cost armies anyways and have more more options of split attacks/base trading only reason to add in hydras would be approaching 200 food cap playing defensive vs 2 base all in protoss with immortals.
Of course there are some all in 2 base hydra busts or some all in hydra doom drops vs protoss but the unit is definitely just "dying" in sc2.
ZvT nobody ever uses hydras. ZvZ nobody should ever use hydras pretty much, roach/infestor is way way stronger than roach/hydra, don't even think roach/hydra beats mass roach as long as you can force fights before 200 food. yeah I agree with pretty much everything here. What's funny is that they're going to change the corruptor to be slightly better vs air units rather than adjusting the hydralisk. Don't get me wrong, I think it's good as the corruptor needed a change and having +massive was pretty silly. I'm just bemused at how they seem to think the hydralisk is fine given how long it's remained untouched.
|
hydralisks make it very hard to deal with protoss players who are good with forcefield. THey should be able to move under ground or something -.-..
|
|
On March 08 2011 10:35 StrifeCro wrote: I've recently done a ton of testing with hydras in ZvP.
Roaches are almost certainly better vs gateway units after their specific upgrades, any kind of surface area problems because roaches are 4 range/hydras 6 range is resolved by using burrow movement underneath forcefields.
In almost any kind of battle vs collosus, roach/corruptor is better than mixing in roach/hydra/corruptor. Even after you get tier 3 for broodlords, roach/broodlord is much stronger than hydra/broodlord vs gateway/collosus up to the point that even 1:1 roaches are better usually in that combo.
The only reason to make hydras is versus voidrays as anti air and versus immortals. Thing is hydras are pretty unusable off of creep and on creep queens are much better as anti air anyways versus void rays. Burrow movement roach armies beat immortal + gateway units similar cost armies anyways and have more more options of split attacks/base trading only reason to add in hydras would be approaching 200 food cap playing defensive vs 2 base all in protoss with immortals.
Of course there are some all in 2 base hydra busts or some all in hydra doom drops vs protoss but the unit is definitely just "dying" in sc2.
ZvT nobody ever uses hydras. ZvZ nobody should ever use hydras pretty much, roach/infestor is way way stronger than roach/hydra, don't even think roach/hydra beats mass roach as long as you can force fights before 200 food. hydra are still needed vs voids, if hes getting quite a few of them, you dont want to be making 5+queens, its much better to get some hydra as they can also bolster your army.
also how would you deal with phoenix? i honestly cant see a good toss getting caught by the missile unless its lagging, they (the phoenix) are just too damn fast
also i remember watching mr Bitters 12weeks with the pro thing when idra was on discussing ZvZ and he said that he prefers to get hydra to infestor, and that roach hydra will beat pure roach everytime given that there is some form of choke, (so a map like scrap where there is no open areas for a 200poproach army) as the hydra have a range advantage.
|
all they need is a speed boost off creep i think that would make them viable in all three matches.
|
On March 08 2011 12:56 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 10:35 StrifeCro wrote: I've recently done a ton of testing with hydras in ZvP.
Roaches are almost certainly better vs gateway units after their specific upgrades, any kind of surface area problems because roaches are 4 range/hydras 6 range is resolved by using burrow movement underneath forcefields.
In almost any kind of battle vs collosus, roach/corruptor is better than mixing in roach/hydra/corruptor. Even after you get tier 3 for broodlords, roach/broodlord is much stronger than hydra/broodlord vs gateway/collosus up to the point that even 1:1 roaches are better usually in that combo.
The only reason to make hydras is versus voidrays as anti air and versus immortals. Thing is hydras are pretty unusable off of creep and on creep queens are much better as anti air anyways versus void rays. Burrow movement roach armies beat immortal + gateway units similar cost armies anyways and have more more options of split attacks/base trading only reason to add in hydras would be approaching 200 food cap playing defensive vs 2 base all in protoss with immortals.
Of course there are some all in 2 base hydra busts or some all in hydra doom drops vs protoss but the unit is definitely just "dying" in sc2.
ZvT nobody ever uses hydras. ZvZ nobody should ever use hydras pretty much, roach/infestor is way way stronger than roach/hydra, don't even think roach/hydra beats mass roach as long as you can force fights before 200 food. yeah I agree with pretty much everything here. What's funny is that they're going to change the corruptor to be slightly better vs air units rather than adjusting the hydralisk. Don't get me wrong, I think it's good as the corruptor needed a change and having +massive was pretty silly. I'm just bemused at how they seem to think the hydralisk is fine given how long it's remained untouched.
Thanks for contributing some high-level opinions guys, was really interesting to read.
|
In closed (as in devs + family and friends) beta they had hydras at their bw position in tech trees and roach was T2. They should seriously just do the bw t1 1food hydra with speed upgrade available at lair. An easier to get unit that shoots both air and ground would also help immensely dealing with dumb cheeses where you have to guess whether to spam queens or crawlers/lings or whatever, this would enable zerg to *gasp* actually have a safe route of playing like the other races where you cant instalose to 2 banshee or a voidray or whatever flying into your base. This will of course never happen and I feel blizzard are clueless of what to do with the hydra. The last change they did to it was lowering its hp from 90 to 80 which was just so uncalled for on every level.
|
On March 08 2011 13:38 vilg wrote: In closed (as in devs + family and friends) beta they had hydras at their bw position in tech trees and roach was T2. They should seriously just do the bw t1 1food hydra with speed upgrade available at lair. An easier to get unit that shoots both air and ground would also help immensely dealing with dumb cheeses where you have to guess whether to spam queens or crawlers/lings or whatever, this would enable zerg to *gasp* actually have a safe route of playing like the other races where you cant instalose to 2 banshee or a voidray or whatever flying into your base. This will of course never happen and I feel blizzard are clueless of what to do with the hydra. The last change they did to it was lowering its hp from 90 to 80 which was just so uncalled for on every level.
Yeah I agree, but I doubt Blizz would ever change a tech tree like that once the game has been released. Maybe in the Expansions it will happen!
|
Bring back the Lunkers. THEN we'll see Hyrdas
Fingers crossed to see them in HotS.
|
^ lurkers were also in SC2 in early stages closed beta but were removed and they will not work in this game for several reasons; no dark swarm being a biggest.
|
What would happen if you changed the hydra's armor type from light to none (just bio)? They still won't be cost effective against terran, but can do MUCH better in ZvP, as they aren't super hard-countered by collosi.
EDIT: Collosi don't get bonuses vs light. Well I guess you learn something new every day A health and/or speed buff seem like an obvious fix for hydras, but maybe something to make it more niche like a passive slow or stacking damage or stacking range reduction on units hit.
|
MURICA15980 Posts
On March 08 2011 09:12 TheKanAry wrote: You know, the Lurker actually fits the role the Hydra was supposed to fill, better than the Hydra.
I mean, the Hydra is generally considered close-range artillery, right? Well, the Lurker actually IS close range artillery.
Just food for thought. Except for the part where, you know, hydras shoot air.
|
On March 08 2011 14:05 Lobotomist wrote: What would happen if you changed the hydra's armor type from light to none (just bio)? They still won't be cost effective against terran, but can do MUCH better in ZvP, as they aren't super hard-countered by collosi. I thought Colossi don't do additional damage to light, they just to a set amount of damage? Have I been fooled all along?
|
On March 08 2011 09:10 STALLONEZONE wrote: The problem with Hydra at the moment is that as soon as you take them off creep, you're essentially going all in with them, as retreat is not an option. ZvZ is currently the only matchup where hydras really see use, or they get broken out as an AA unit in ZvP.
The easiest/best change to hydras imo would be to give them tunnelling claws, this would make people more willing to use them in their army in ZvP because they can do FF avoidance just like with roaches, currently, if you burrow to avoid FF, your hydras sit still and die, and if you burrow your roaches only, theyre not tanking for your hydras anymore and are dying. The problem mainly is that hydras don't actually work too great with roaches! Apart from being able to outrange them, they still sit at perfect collosus range though. In ZvZ, really you just use them to get an extra bit of DPS out due to range where your roaches wouldn't, it's really map dependent, again, infestors are better than hydras. I can't imagine a situation where you'd build Hydras in ZvT, there's the fungal/hydra range trick, but that's about to become even worse with the new patch.
Not if you use a forward Nydus and do some quick creep spread with a few Queens (or Overlords), who can also heal your glass cannon Hydras, either in battle or during a retreat to the Nydus. The issue is that you need to establish map/vision control first or else it'll likely get snuffed out before enough creep is out. The Queens also help vs Colossi, although you'll need a larger number of them to really make a difference in taking them out.
|
The problem is in the mobility and the survivability. The cost is fine, space is fine, damage is fine, etc. However, I would prefer survivability over mobility. Just make hydras actually survive collosi for longer, then they would be used a bit more late game. However, they are still great choices when the opponent has few/no collosi and you have plenty of resources. Also, there was this hydra/ling strat that came out recently and is apparently very effective. EDIT: They also nullify air. Most of the time.
|
It sucks that hydras are completely useless against terran. In Brood war they could be used against terran mech or even combined with lurkers against SK terran but in SC2 they get slaughtered vs terran anything.
I guess you could say the same for BCs vs zerg at the moment as well but think they have a bit more potential.
|
The change to the infestor is going to make less people want to use them, not more (at least at a decently high level of play). A lot of people say that the infestor will now be the anti deathball unit, which is ridiculous. In order to grab that entire ball of units and keep them from just focusing your infestors down, you're going to need a LOT of them and a hell of a lot of luck to even hit what you want due to the projectile.
So, IMO, there will be no change in the dynamic of ZvP, it's going probably going to be roach corrupter hydra with bane drops until HotS comes out, and maybe even then.
|
|
|
|