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well, to all the guys talking bout hydras hard counter blink stalkers , you should be a little bit careful. i just went in the unit test map and let 15 hydras battle 15 blink stalkers. i play zerg and were able to win the fight with my subpar micro 1st try with 12 stalkers still being alive. ok, stalkers cost 25 minerals more and blink has its cost too but just saying "LOL hydras slaughter blink stalkers ................" is very very wrong ....
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Hydras are a glass cannon imo, I dont' use them much.
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On March 10 2011 00:17 Kazang wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 23:55 Subversion wrote: The argument about creep is silly. To spread creep offensively, i.e. right up to your opponent's defenses, will take the greater part of the match. Not to mention with an obs or a Raven, its very easy to annihilate 20 minutes of creep spreading work.
I am all for units getting a BENEFIT from creep, but they shouldn't be so shit off creep that they're actually DEPENDENT on it. Creep is supposed to be a reward, not a requirement. Who decided that it should be a reward not a requirement? At the highest level of play use of all advantages should be required, that is where the skill comes in. The other thing is that people are just thinking about creep wrong. They just spread it and leave it instead of having queens and overlords with the army to have creep under the units constantly. Hydras do have a speed upgrade, it's called Pneumatized Carapace, creep on demand. For a player good enough to actually take advantage of creep Hydras are faster than all the ground units for other races. Hydras are a unit that takes skill to use properly, can't handle that? Just go play protoss, or just don't make Hydras as zerg, there are no situations where it's required to use mass Hydras. It's that simple. The game mechanics don't need to be dumbed down and made simpler just because not all players can take advantage of creep properly.
Why should I have to half of my supply floating in the battle just to make one of my units usable? Lets make terrans walk their supply depots along with their army so their marines can stim. It's stupid.
What I'm saying is that Hydras should be decent off of creep for their insane cost. Yes, you should get an advantage for being a gosu creep-spreader. But the unit should not be UNUSABLE off of creep.
In the same way Speedlings on creep are much better at dealing with Terran marine-tank pushes than off, this forces you to spread creep against a Terran who's pushing cleverly. But that doesn't mean you should lose the game to an a-move if you haven't spread your creep.
It's far too much of a hinderance to be forced to spread creep just to make a core, expensive unit USABLE. And yes, I mean usable., The Hydra is complete garbage off of creep.
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On March 10 2011 08:34 Ciddass wrote: well, to all the guys talking bout hydras hard counter blink stalkers , you should be a little bit careful. i just went in the unit test map and let 15 hydras battle 15 blink stalkers. i play zerg and were able to win the fight with my subpar micro 1st try with 12 stalkers still being alive. ok, stalkers cost 25 minerals more and blink has its cost too but just saying "LOL hydras slaughter blink stalkers ................" is very very wrong ....
put the missing minerals (25*15) in zerglings and they rape blink stalkers, of course pure hydras don't win against pure blink stalker, that wasn't stated.
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your opinion doesn't matter
hell even the pros don't matter
bottom line people don't know how to balance shit, predicting game balance is like predicting stock. even the most qualified of people can't predict it. imo blizzard has been the #1 company with regards to competitive balance ( in rts at least) they know when to sit back and chill and see what new strategies develop instead of basing their balancing on the past 2 or even 5 months. shit changes, the only time you need to change something before that time period is if something is completely imbalanced.
the hydra does not need to be changed, if it gets changed then either it becomes a massive buff to a zerg, or something that doesn't matter. if it becomes a massive buff, then you have to balance around this massive buff. in sc1 things were hardly balanced, if sc1 was sc2 then you would have people screaming for queen buffs and psi storm nerfs and dark swarm nerfs etc etc. let the game develop, if zerg consistently has a 35% win rate then you know it's time to change something, pick an area and change it. don't change things with the intention to make it viable, change to balance.
the idea of changing to fit a certain races style is noble, but balance suffers. in WoW a blizzard rep said that they balance around classes, not specs. if your spec sucks well then too bad for you, they don't want to have the headache of balancing 30 specs. they want to balance classes, and that's what i think people need to consider before changing certain units.
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On March 10 2011 08:45 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 08:34 Ciddass wrote: well, to all the guys talking bout hydras hard counter blink stalkers , you should be a little bit careful. i just went in the unit test map and let 15 hydras battle 15 blink stalkers. i play zerg and were able to win the fight with my subpar micro 1st try with 12 stalkers still being alive. ok, stalkers cost 25 minerals more and blink has its cost too but just saying "LOL hydras slaughter blink stalkers ................" is very very wrong .... put the missing minerals (25*15) in zerglings and they rape blink stalkers, of course pure hydras don't win against pure blink stalker, that wasn't stated.
Then why not just make fewer hydras overall and more zerglings? His point was that hydras don't serve a cost effective purpose against much of anything, even when compared to Zerg's other cost ineffective units (the roach excluded),and he's right.
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Yeah people have been saying hydras suck since beta. They fall under the same category as things like bunker salvage, excessive amounts of short rush distance maps in ladder, and misc. colossi criticisms. I just wish blizzard would take slightly larger and slighty more bold baby steps in balancing out some aspects of SC2.
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Hydras can be viable in zvst, Using them with broodlords and fungal growth, has proven to be very strong.
Vs toss, there still a amazing unit against gateway units.
I feel the hydra is still a great unit. Getting a few hydras to attack behind your roaches will only further increase your dps, do to the hydras range.
So there is no reason to ever not include them in a comp with roach infester. Its just decieding how many infestors do i want, and how many hydras do i want.
Just because they aren't beefy like the roach doesn't make them bad. There good because they have a grater range and dps, allot more then the roach with just 4 range.
The hydras range allows it to be engaging more so then the bulk of roaches.
This is just my opinion
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Hydras do extremely well vs gateway units and viking/banshee. We have seen some use of them in many games but once collosus comes out there is no real reason to use them. ZvP needs a change to make hydras more usable vs robo and less vs gateway/starport and so they dont die in 1 sec to seige tanks in ZvT. They needs a buff. Marines cost for cost beat them, have better upgrades and are way more massable.
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On March 10 2011 08:45 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 00:17 Kazang wrote:On March 09 2011 23:55 Subversion wrote: The argument about creep is silly. To spread creep offensively, i.e. right up to your opponent's defenses, will take the greater part of the match. Not to mention with an obs or a Raven, its very easy to annihilate 20 minutes of creep spreading work.
I am all for units getting a BENEFIT from creep, but they shouldn't be so shit off creep that they're actually DEPENDENT on it. Creep is supposed to be a reward, not a requirement. Who decided that it should be a reward not a requirement? At the highest level of play use of all advantages should be required, that is where the skill comes in. The other thing is that people are just thinking about creep wrong. They just spread it and leave it instead of having queens and overlords with the army to have creep under the units constantly. Hydras do have a speed upgrade, it's called Pneumatized Carapace, creep on demand. For a player good enough to actually take advantage of creep Hydras are faster than all the ground units for other races. Hydras are a unit that takes skill to use properly, can't handle that? Just go play protoss, or just don't make Hydras as zerg, there are no situations where it's required to use mass Hydras. It's that simple. The game mechanics don't need to be dumbed down and made simpler just because not all players can take advantage of creep properly. Why should I have to half of my supply floating in the battle just to make one of my units usable? Lets make terrans walk their supply depots along with their army so their marines can stim. It's stupid. What I'm saying is that Hydras should be decent off of creep for their insane cost. Yes, you should get an advantage for being a gosu creep-spreader. But the unit should not be UNUSABLE off of creep. In the same way Speedlings on creep are much better at dealing with Terran marine-tank pushes than off, this forces you to spread creep against a Terran who's pushing cleverly. But that doesn't mean you should lose the game to an a-move if you haven't spread your creep. It's far too much of a hinderance to be forced to spread creep just to make a core, expensive unit USABLE. And yes, I mean usable., The Hydra is complete garbage off of creep. Although I disagree with you about using your ol... I do agree that hydra is not cost efficient off of creep. But I would like to see some games where Hydras have increased speed off of creep before agreeing that's the fix. If you buff the hydra, Protoss/Terran might have too much trouble dealing with them.
If someone with expert computer skills could create a UMS with buffed (faster speed off creep) hydras that would be really nice? See if ZvP would look better? That would solve a lot of curiosity in this thread alone. But to speculate if Hydras are better or worse off creep is a waste of energy that will start a debate surely going nowhere.
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On March 10 2011 09:39 Mafs wrote: Hydras do extremely well vs gateway units and viking/banshee. We have seen some use of them in many games but once collosus comes out there is no real reason to use them. ZvP needs a change to make hydras more usable vs robo and less vs gateway/starport and so they dont die in 1 sec to seige tanks in ZvT. They needs a buff. Marines cost for cost beat them, have better upgrades and are way more massable.
Players can still make hydras, just don't make as many. Too many people just say hey look he has cols, so my hydras will get owned, and never make a hydra again.
The hydras still perform great dps, just positioning them behind the roaches is important.
I also believe Hydra+infestor drops could become really good
Especially with the infestors new fungal in 1.3.
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Courtesy of Soier
This is the longest hydra complaint thread I've ever seen
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Scrap the hydra, let roach shoot air and give it +1 more range as an upgrade.
PROBLEM SOLVED
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On March 10 2011 10:02 hejakev wrote: (useless image) This is the longest hydra complaint thread I've ever seen It helps that a lot of the posts in the thread contain actual content instead of derailing.
@Hydras on creep - even when they're on creep, they're still slower than stimmed marines (and slower than unstimmed marines off-creep, it's the same speed bonus.) And they aren't exactly getting an attack speed upgrade from the creep either.
There's some times that a zerg MUST build hydras. Obviously. But it's not because we think they're a good unit, it's because we have NO CHOICE. Queens and Hydras are the only ground units that shoot up. And personally, until a game absolutely necessitates hydras for shooting up, or I've been going roach but am starting to have too many roaches to fit into an arc, I won't be building hydras. I'm not building hydras because I like them, but because there's no other option for "units that can shoot up" or "units that have more than 4 range"
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Definitely possible for such a thing to happen, not sure if it would completely 'die' though.
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I see reaper use more than hydra
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On March 10 2011 10:13 Owarida wrote: Scrap the hydra, let roach shoot air and give it +1 more range as an upgrade.
PROBLEM SOLVED
There was no problem to begin with. Our roach is great enough as it is. Hydras are good. There just not a unit needed until a certain point in a game, unless its to directly deal with a fast harass.
I however really like getting a quick den when I'm facing toss, I will be hydra happy until they get more then 1 col, still using roaches to tank damage. I like to move out with a roach hydra push before cols are a problem. Sometimes that just dosent happen if the toss is any good. In that case i would switch to roach corrupter. Zerglings as clean up with the few hydras is effective, if you can pick off the cols.
I agree it does suck how fast cols can kill hydras when there in big numbers. But its our job as zerg to deny the third and keep his army at a manageable number.
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On March 10 2011 10:02 hejakev wrote: Courtesy of Soier This is the longest hydra complaint thread I've ever seen
You can't trivialise it as some kind of QQ thread.
Everyone seems to be missing that we're not trying to say "BUFF HYDRA THEY SUCK LOL"
The point here is that Hydras, as they are, do not make sense as a Zerg unit. They have terrible synergy, don't fit with the theme of Zerg, and as a core unit are having more and more limited uses.
Hydras need to be completely reworked, not just an arbitrary buff.
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On March 10 2011 10:02 hejakev wrote: (image) Courtesy of Soier
This is the longest hydra complaint thread I've ever seen
Er... Hydras are T2, and can be easily rushed to (unlike 100 second spire tech). It's a little dumb in most circumstances (but great against blink stalker). I mean I just don't understand the picture... who is suggesting rushing to hydras? I don't get the joke.
The point here is that Hydras, as they are, do not make sense as a Zerg unit. They have terrible synergy, don't fit with the theme of Zerg, and as a core unit are having more and more limited uses.
I agree. I consider the Queen the core AA unit of the zerg, not the hydra.
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On March 10 2011 09:42 Hellhammer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 08:45 Subversion wrote:On March 10 2011 00:17 Kazang wrote:On March 09 2011 23:55 Subversion wrote: The argument about creep is silly. To spread creep offensively, i.e. right up to your opponent's defenses, will take the greater part of the match. Not to mention with an obs or a Raven, its very easy to annihilate 20 minutes of creep spreading work.
I am all for units getting a BENEFIT from creep, but they shouldn't be so shit off creep that they're actually DEPENDENT on it. Creep is supposed to be a reward, not a requirement. Who decided that it should be a reward not a requirement? At the highest level of play use of all advantages should be required, that is where the skill comes in. The other thing is that people are just thinking about creep wrong. They just spread it and leave it instead of having queens and overlords with the army to have creep under the units constantly. Hydras do have a speed upgrade, it's called Pneumatized Carapace, creep on demand. For a player good enough to actually take advantage of creep Hydras are faster than all the ground units for other races. Hydras are a unit that takes skill to use properly, can't handle that? Just go play protoss, or just don't make Hydras as zerg, there are no situations where it's required to use mass Hydras. It's that simple. The game mechanics don't need to be dumbed down and made simpler just because not all players can take advantage of creep properly. Why should I have to half of my supply floating in the battle just to make one of my units usable? Lets make terrans walk their supply depots along with their army so their marines can stim. It's stupid. What I'm saying is that Hydras should be decent off of creep for their insane cost. Yes, you should get an advantage for being a gosu creep-spreader. But the unit should not be UNUSABLE off of creep. In the same way Speedlings on creep are much better at dealing with Terran marine-tank pushes than off, this forces you to spread creep against a Terran who's pushing cleverly. But that doesn't mean you should lose the game to an a-move if you haven't spread your creep. It's far too much of a hinderance to be forced to spread creep just to make a core, expensive unit USABLE. And yes, I mean usable., The Hydra is complete garbage off of creep. Although I disagree with you about using your ol... I do agree that hydra is not cost efficient off of creep. But I would like to see some games where Hydras have increased speed off of creep before agreeing that's the fix. If you buff the hydra, Protoss/Terran might have too much trouble dealing with them. If someone with expert computer skills could create a UMS with buffed (faster speed off creep) hydras that would be really nice? See if ZvP would look better? That would solve a lot of curiosity in this thread alone. But to speculate if Hydras are better or worse off creep is a waste of energy that will start a debate surely going nowhere.
This is an interesting idea.
How difficult would it be to create a UMS where you could alter a unit's stats? This would allow us to test changes out ourselves and see how it looks.
A thread full of these kinds of findings might also actually help Blizzard, or at least bring their attention to it.
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