The Death of the Hydra? - Page 34
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the-darkest-templar
United States32 Posts
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ICA
498 Posts
The Hydra still has a lot of value in ZvP imo and is seen sometimes in ZvZ to complement roaches, which is a nice thing to have. Furthermore the Hydra can work ZvT in combinations with infestors against a Bioball without tanks occasionally. So buff it but not too much. The more I think about it and the bigger the maps will be the more I think that the Hydra has to be either faster or needs a speed upgrade. Just my 2 cents. | ||
ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
With the roach and the Hydra beeing at 2 supply u will always have a small army compared to Terran and protoss, even on 200/200. I mean this is a known fact and its generally no problem, when u can reproduce. The Hydra is just so gas heavy and only effectiv in some very rare situations. (Basicly just Gateway only army and even they can kill Hydras lategame). I think a cost reduction in gas to 25 gas and an increase in Mineralcost (+50) would lead to an overall better gameplay for Zergs. This would give the minerals more worth at 3+ bases. The less gascost just represent what the Hydra is, its not a unit worth 50 gas. The other thing is a Hydraspeed upgrade. As the meta-game progresses the speed advantage of Zerg became more and more important. The Hydra is lacking heavily here. The biggest problem is that even if the Zerg has a better army or an even army, the Hydras need to much time to get a concave to DPS. These are some obvious solutions to the Hydra problem, which u can call fix. But let me just go into a dream land and completly redesign the Hydra. Hydra same stats as now. Same cost as now. HydraDen on T1. Hydra Speedupgrade on Lair. Hydra +2 Rangeupgrade on Hive. This would justify the cost and supply. And the Hydra would be a more refined units, which requieres the Zerg to commit to tech a little bit more. As a Zerg player u dont really decide u need that tech, because most of it is a must have to use the unit in anyway. Also the roles would be more refined on the different tech levels. T1 Anti Air(no explanation needed), defensive DPS. But hard to fast attack because its slow and has relativ small range. Any Zerg knows that the Hydra is not very strong without range. It is not the gateway eating monster. Also it is worth to get against Terran early against non stimmed MM. T2: Hey now we can make aggresive moves in T2 that is not Allin or Roach timing. More options is good and with the still small range it is obviously weak to certain things. T3T3: Now it has Range7 and Speed. Yes now we have a dmg dealer that can attack earlier, form a concave but is still vulnerable against storm and collossus. Vulnerable is huge improvment compared to earlier Hydras against HT/Collossus lategame. Also I believe it offers Hydra play against Terran, since fast Range 7 Hydra are able to approach tanks/thors easier and form a concave while Zerglings tank fe. Well enough dreaming, but I think this would really help the game. | ||
Orzabal
France287 Posts
Hydra are fragil AND slow. This is the problem. On creep they are good. But expand creep take time and apm. Destroy creep cost A-move with an observer. This is another part of the problem. | ||
DARKHYDRA
United States303 Posts
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BandonBanshee
Canada437 Posts
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Martinni
Canada169 Posts
On March 14 2011 10:40 Orzabal wrote: If it fragile, It has to be fast. Hydra are fragil AND slow. This is the problem. On creep they are good. But expand creep take time and apm. Destroy creep cost A-move with an observer. This is another part of the problem. I couldn't agree more. Lings are fragile but at least mobile. Every time we attack with hydra we're pretty much committing them to either succeeding or dying, there's no retreat. | ||
Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On March 14 2011 15:21 Martinni wrote: I couldn't agree more. Lings are fragile but at least mobile. Every time we attack with hydra we're pretty much committing them to either succeeding or dying, there's no retreat. It's actually a fundamental flaw in their design. I can't think of another combat unit in any game that I've played that's both fragile, AND slow (and to top it off, the Hydra is classified as a 'light' unit). The fast and fragile class of unit is an intuitive design function that the Hydralisk simply doesn't follow. | ||
Noli
United Kingdom179 Posts
On March 14 2011 14:46 BandonBanshee wrote: just give us speed upgrade back.....and lurkers Yeah speed upgrade from Brood War would be great and how could I say no to Lurkers. I do think Hydras are helpful to support Queens with defence from drops but that's really about it. | ||
valheru
Australia966 Posts
On March 14 2011 10:40 Orzabal wrote: If it fragile, It has to be fast. Hydra are fragil AND slow. This is the problem. On creep they are good. But expand creep take time and apm. Destroy creep cost A-move with an observer. This is another part of the problem. I partially disagree with your first line. fragility, speed and damage dealing capability should be taken into account not just the first two points. Take tanks, slow, fairly fragile and can deal monstrous damage from a long way. On the whole I agree though. Here's my opinion: Hydra's are a glass cannon and also immobile. This means that they cannot get the the battle effectively and will die before being able to effectively deal a reasonable amount of damage. To circumvent this the roach is introduced as a wall, the problem comes with AoE. Collosus and tanks have 9 and 13 range and splash, due to the low hitpoint total of the hydra AoE is extremely effiecient at dealing with them, and due to the long range the roach wall is of far far less use. Zerg is a race that is meant to poke and prod in many locations and rarely come to a head on battle. This means that their units should be fast be able to engage and disengage easily with or without creep. Hyrdras don't fit with this because it's extremely difficult for them to retreat in the face of an army. My idea of a possible solution: More speed and range, implement it as an upgrade or inbuilt but they need to be able to retreat from an army and have enough range to deal it's damage without getting shredded by AoE in order to be an effective unit. I would not recommend a nerf I believe it was Jinro who said ''What Blizzard is doing doesn't make it easier for people to stay alive it makes it easier for them to die.'' EDIT: typo | ||
Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
If Terrans have their Medivacs accompany the bio army to heal them after a stim and during a fight, why cant Zerg use their Overlords for the same purpose? Zealots cant even decide to run faster when they want it, they need to have a target to charge. IMO the Zerg players need to stop whining and learn to spread their creep more. If Hydras get a speed upgrade we are back to Broodwar days where you spread creep with turrets and all the new nifty mechanics have to go .... including the moving defensive structures. | ||
StateOfZerg
31 Posts
It is irrefutable that there is a lack of hydra play in all Zerg matchups, however we have to look at the intent of blizzard when creating the hydra. Blizzard gave hydras a huge speed boost on creep and it has the highest dps of the zerg arsenal. However, at the current state of the game, not many players are able to effectively spread creep like robots i.e Moon,Ret,Idra . And even then, it is easily countered by scans of terran (watch nestea vs MVP games in the last GSL - MVP effectively denied any/all creep spread by the best zerg in the world) and observers of the protoss. In Blizzard's intent, hydras are meant for strategic play. Viable with good creep spread mechanics, drops and defensive purposes. But then, the retarded upgrade (+1 range for 150/150 lol) which costs more than stim, same cost as blink and for 50/50 more, colossus gets +3. Is it me or is the hydra short changed? If hydras were to be used strategically i.e. FOXmoon - IEM, as drops and two pronged dps monsters, the range upgrade should be scrapped for making no sense in hydra play. Instead, a 150/150 upgrade for 30-50% attack speed bonus on creep would be more viable. Looking at statistics alone, you may think wow thats imbalanced, but I kid you not, its effective dps still be lesser than a pack of marines with stim. Hydras have a much larger collision size than marines and do not have instant attack or smart targeting. The effective area required for a 80 food army of hydras with 6 range to completely destroy a terran army would be too ridiculous to assume into standard games/maps. Besides, stim provides 50% attack rate increase on demand whilst this is strategic and situational. Having a 150/150 attack rate upgrade for hydra opens up more exciting dynamics into zerg play. Hydras can be powerfully defensive due to creep in bases, can be viable in nydus play due to natural creep generation of nydus and drop play with overlord spewing creep. It makes multiple hydra drop harass much more viable and still does not break the game as an overlord only carries 4 hydras. Not only are overlords the slowest transport unit in game, but a zerg has to get up to Lair and then double research the upgrades for the tech to be available. Then, hydra den and the new upgrade would have to be researched. It suffices to say that mid game zerg would then be alot more than muta harass or silent macro. An unexplored region of nydus use would be nydus flanking. Using the nydus worm may be a big investment, however with the creep attack bonus on hydra, it is more than ever before more viable. A two pronged flank with nydus on a protoss death ball would both be tough to pull off mechanically and strategically but extremely exciting to viewers. Hydras at 6 range do not differ much from hydras at 7 range. A speed increase off creep would just turn them into roaches with high dps. Why not improve the intent of hydras and improve their usage on creep. This punishes Terrans and Protosses who do not deny creep tumor and would be far better than the lame high movespeed bonus hydra gets. Please do consider 150/150 50% attack rate bonus for hydras in place of +1 range =) Peace | ||
Hobokinz
United States126 Posts
On March 14 2011 17:44 Rabiator wrote: In Broodwar there was no "creep spread" largely because the mechanics werent in the game and spreading creep with sunken colonies is impractical for the most part. For SC2 Blizzard came up with a neat gimmick which is the creep tumor and the speed boost on creep. Sadly many Zerg players are a bit lazy with spreading their creep so they miss out on this. But is this really unfair given that the main units compared with the Hydra have their speed boost attached to a condition as well? I think not. If Terrans have their Medivacs accompany the bio army to heal them after a stim and during a fight, why cant Zerg use their Overlords for the same purpose? Zealots cant even decide to run faster when they want it, they need to have a target to charge. IMO the Zerg players need to stop whining and learn to spread their creep more. If Hydras get a speed upgrade we are back to Broodwar days where you spread creep with turrets and all the new nifty mechanics have to go .... including the moving defensive structures. I hate seeing people say "OH just bring Overlords dood!" If your Overlords die then you get supply blocked and then Zerg can no longer remax (AKA what Zerg needs to do to win games). And the comment that Zerg players just need to stop crying and spread creep is so ignorant it hurts. Maybe you don't see players spread creep that much, but I can promise you ,while it isn't perfect, that alot of Z players DO spread creep. Make Medivacs cost supply, then you have a post that works. | ||
adRo.
Australia243 Posts
I never actually took into consideration the bonus damage from fungal onto roaches completely changing ZvZ. However, i dont feel they will really die out in ZvP, i still feel hydas mix very well with broodlords, that being said, seeing broodlords is pretty rare :< | ||
Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Thing about the Zergling versus Terran. You get some, then you get speed and their utility skyrockets. Then you get some banelings - another big buff. Then you spread creep further and get their speed upgrade and maybe add in some infestors. Finally you can add ultralisks, to make the ultimate "your ground army is boned" avalanche of death. At every stage, a reasonably modest investment preserves or increases the value of the resources you've ploughed in already. Or you might go via mutalisks, to exploit the synergies there. Think about the marine. You get some, and then you can rent a bunker (for free, with a security deposit) to massively increase their ability to defend or attack. Then you get a health upgrade and stim. Add a handful of tanks, or a couple of medivacs, or some marauders to soak up banelings, and just as with the zergling the utility of that core unit continues to rise. Thus marines are always worth making. How many ZvTs have you seen where the 'winning' units - the payload finally delivered into the enemy base by whatever means and at whatever time - are marines? I've seen a lot. It's the same with Protoss gateway units: blink and charge, a small number of sentries, Colossus or Immortals - all the support units and upgrades synergise well to keep gateway units relevant and increase their value. Now come back to the hydralisk. It's not a support unit: it doesn't improve the utility of other units when present in small numbers. As a frontline fighting unit it has a window of opportunity against Protoss that gets slammed shut by Colossus, to the point where Protoss actively try to make a Zerg tech to hydra in order to kill him more easily. Against Terran the pre-tank window is so small, and so dangerous to try and hit, that it's not even worth going for. Nor are there any Zerg support units that greatly increase the utility of hydras or bring them back into the game. Once there are tanks or colossus on the field, the resources you've sunk into hydra permanently plummet in value. There's no next step. I don't need to tell anyone about how Broodwar successfully overcomes this: an upgrade that completely redefines the hydra's purpose, makes it useful in small numbers, delays pushes and forces tech. But what about SC2? Regretfully setting aside the possiblity of morphing Hydras into something else, or cutting them in half and putting them at Hatchery tech, there still needs to be a next step, something to make investing in hydra less of an all-or-nothing commitment. I just can't think what that could be right now | ||
Sirion
131 Posts
First, as Hydras need to do the damage in the 2 minutes after they become available, the range upgrade should be removed and Hydras should get range 6 from the start. Hydras with range 6 are not so dangerous that that tech has to be delayed artificially, like with the Colossus range upgrade. The second step addresses Umpteen's point. As the value of hydras drastically decreases in time because of Colossus, Storm, Tanks and upgraded marines, there should be some compensation, and at the moment there are no units to fill that role. A lot of players wish for a speed upgrade, but in my opinion that is the wrong approach. Zerg unit upgrades are already dominated by speed upgrades that I am getting sick of them. No, instead I could imagine a +2 range upgrade at Hive tech, increasing the Hydras range to 8. That would help immensely against Colossus, as with 8 against 9 there is a situation where micro is viable. Also at 8 range it is possible to threaten wall-ins, drop on cliffs to harass, support Broodlords with anti-air. A somewhat slow glass cannon range 6 unit in the mid game which becomes range 8 in the late game might just be the niche in which the Hydra fits: an artillery unit. And Hive is such a late tech and big investment that the Terran or Protoss player can prepare. Siege tanks still dominate Hydras, Marines and Marauders can stim and move in range, Hydras still cannot move out of a Storm and Chargelots are a great way to deal with small raiding parties of Hydras. Of course it is more difficult to deal with range 8 Hydras, but I believe Protoss and Terrans still have the tools to deal with them, it just no longer is a roflstomp. | ||
Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
No, I don't think that would work out. It's OK for tanks and colossus and broodlords to have that kind of ground range because they're support units: bulky, expensive and vulnerable. Hydra aren't support units. Absolutely, though, I think the answer is in devising a next step for them, either through strategy or tweaks to the game. EDIT: Although Lurkers aren't on the table, maybe the answer does lie in making some further use of burrow: Drones -> Hide from drops Lings -> plant hidden scouts and delay expansions. Banelings -> baneling bombs. Roach -> Burrow movement (forcefields, getting into range) + healing Infestor -> Burrow movement, launch infested Terrans, attack mineral lines Ultras -> Lulz Hydra -> ??? Hell, why not give Hydra an underground attack without requiring a Lurker upgrade? Doesn't need to be AoE or anything; something akin to the old Sunken Colony attack would suffice. That would let them stack better with Roaches, with good micro/baiting. Maybe it only works on creep, too. | ||
Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On March 14 2011 18:00 Hobokinz wrote: I hate seeing people say "OH just bring Overlords dood!" If your Overlords die then you get supply blocked and then Zerg can no longer remax (AKA what Zerg needs to do to win games). And the comment that Zerg players just need to stop crying and spread creep is so ignorant it hurts. Maybe you don't see players spread creep that much, but I can promise you ,while it isn't perfect, that alot of Z players DO spread creep. Make Medivacs cost supply, then you have a post that works. With an argument like that you will never ever spread out your Overlords for scouting because they might die to an air unit, right? Makes sense because you have only just enough Overlords to supply your army, right? Having Overlords block your units from view wont prevent an opponent from targeting them ... obviously. One of the arguments was that you cant flee with Hydras when sh.. hits the fan, but Overlords spread BEHIND your army will not be in the line of fire and I think people might prefer losing an Overlord to losing a few Hydras. | ||
AngryBear
United States32 Posts
It's not the most mobile of armies off-creep, but on-creep, it is very solid. Creep management is a sometimes neglected strategy of some Zerg players. The Creep Tumor is an important tool of the Zerg arsenal. It helps to control the map, and that coupled with the Overlord's creep drop ability, it can very qucikly dictate where the opponent can expand, and where the opponent will fight battles. If you also drop a couple Overlords right over the battle and have them drop creep, the Hydras can effectively chase your opponent for a few more seconds if they retreat, and those couple seconds allow for a few more shots. Hydras also make good expansion guards when coupled with a few Spine Crawlers. 4-5 Hydras at a new expansion + 2 Queens + 2 Spine Crawlers (usually my 3rd or 4th) is a good defense that will stand up to many raiding parties. It is a bit more mineral heavy than Mutas (175/75 for a Roach/Hydra and 100/100 for Muta), but I find that I ususally have a surplus of minerals over gas at Lair tech. | ||
Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
It feels like in the Roach, we have a big, beefy siege unit, which makes sense at T2. Why can't a Hydra be a cheap (maybe 75/25?), low damage, fast unit thats T1 and is 1 supply? How amazing would that be? Would solve Zerg's complete lack of AA aside from the Queen in the early game, and would give us something versatile other than lings that we can mass as a core unit. Zerg just feels so un-Zerg like =/ | ||
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