Welcome to the Patch General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends and the most recent patch. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread. While posting standards tend to be rather lax in this thread, pointless spam will not be tolerated.
It'll be fun to play Ekko on release as he'll be batshit crazy strong. They should have released a better skin though I mean come on, it's pretty lame.
Wait, so karma can now just walk over and mantra W krugs or crab and get back 45% of her missing hp for free? lol
new coin thing has 32s cd with utility and buffed censor, I welcome our new/old janna overlords. 60HP per wave is a also a fuckton of sustain for the stage 2.
Fairly large ryze buffs, new utility is also a buff for him.
On May 28 2015 06:14 Goumindong wrote: 60 HP/wave is unchanged from prior
Nomad's Medallion BONUS GOLD 3 gold per nearby minion death ⇒ 4 gold per nearby minion death HEALTH PER NEARBY MINION DEATH 5 ⇒ 10 MANA REGENERATION 25% ⇒ 50% GOLD COLLECTION RANGE 1100 ⇒ 1400 Talisman of Ascension BONUS GOLD 3 gold per nearby minion death ⇒ 4 gold per nearby minion death HEALTH PER NEARBY MINION DEATH 5 ⇒ 10 GOLD COLLECTION RANGE 1100 ⇒ 1400 ACTIVE COOLDOWN 60 seconds ⇒ 40 seconds
???
Coin might be decent now not sure have to try it out.
Do you upgrade it in lane? I get stage 2 of relic after sightstone because 1m timer sucks, it gives more sustain to your AD, and makes it easier to get a cannon minion, and I leave spellthief where it is till I sell it for Talisman basically.
After 2 minutes since you last were full mana, the new t1 utility mastery becomes worse than the current one. There are a lot more match-ups mid where I'll use 9 defense instead then, dunno if biscuits and summoner spells' CDR beats Juggernaut and Veteran's Scars.
I didn't even think Leona was seeing a resurgence in terms of competitive play, don't know why they're nerfing her E's hit box.
The mastery changes will probably hurt the AP mids that went 21/0/9 more than the supports that went 9/0/21 or 0/9/21.
Talisman got a huge nerf, which it kinda needed. Not sure if it'll help but it certainly can't hurt. Might let the pros see a resurgence with poke champs by having the support use the Talisman as a sort of Sivir ult to engage/disengage with.
Other than that, Karma changes should help, and here comes AP Riven.
On May 28 2015 06:11 sob3k wrote: Wait, so karma can now just walk over and mantra W krugs or crab and get back 45% of her missing hp for free? lol
new coin thing has 32s cd with utility and buffed censor, I welcome our new/old janna overlords. 60HP per wave is a also a fuckton of sustain for the stage 2.
Fairly large ryze buffs, new utility is also a buff for him.
Well, at the end of the day you're still playing karma, so we'll see how this goes.
Kinda sad about the leona nerf though. Wasn't a really hard skillshot to dodge in the first place given the animation time.
On May 28 2015 06:14 Goumindong wrote: 60 HP/wave is unchanged from prior
Nomad's Medallion BONUS GOLD 3 gold per nearby minion death ⇒ 4 gold per nearby minion death HEALTH PER NEARBY MINION DEATH 5 ⇒ 10 MANA REGENERATION 25% ⇒ 50% GOLD COLLECTION RANGE 1100 ⇒ 1400 Talisman of Ascension BONUS GOLD 3 gold per nearby minion death ⇒ 4 gold per nearby minion death HEALTH PER NEARBY MINION DEATH 5 ⇒ 10 GOLD COLLECTION RANGE 1100 ⇒ 1400 ACTIVE COOLDOWN 60 seconds ⇒ 40 seconds
???
Coin might be decent now not sure have to try it out.
They must have nerfed it without me realizing because it was 10hp/minion for the longest time. Or it could be my memory.
Either way another big change is the MR change to super minions.
Assuming you don't have pen that doubles magic damage to super minions. And it's still pretty impressive if you can shred all of it (42% increase in damage)
we're reducing a bit of that MR MAGIC RESISTANCE 40 ⇒ -30
Only removing 70mr huh?
Zenith Blade's actually got a super wide hitbox that nobody notices
OH really? No one noticed the truck sized Zenith blade hitbox huh?
Good changes overall though. Finally fixing Leona's hitbox and finally giving Coin line better mana regen and gold gen. I'm not so sure about giving bork extra range. Didn't they specifically nerf the range after it was introduced because it was op?
.....one for sitting in the back and doing nothing.
There aren't any supports in league who sit in the back and do nothing, they tried with soraka and it sucks balls and isn't fun when she is any good. Its a boring and shitty gameplay pattern to promote. At the end of the day its always gonna come down to if its straight up better than spellthief, as its totally risk free.
I really don't like the Jinx changes, unhitching ability base strength from points put into the skill is going down a road that I really don't want to go down.
On May 28 2015 06:47 sob3k wrote: I still think coin is a dumb idea for an item
Ok, options for support playstyles:
one for melee tankyness engage
one for harass
.....one for sitting in the back and doing nothing.
There aren't any supports in league who sit in the back and do nothing, they tried with soraka and it sucks balls and isn't fun when she is any good. Its a boring and shitty gameplay pattern to promote. At the end of the day its always gonna come down to if its straight up better than spellthief, as its totally risk free.
It's not for sitting in the back and doing nothing, lol. You swap to coin from spellthiefs on Nami/Janna/Lulu holy trinity of "we're going to save our players", just because you don't benefit from fqc at all and coin gives you way more money while running around map warding and sweeping.
Thing is that I can easily see people going for coin start and rushing talisman with new utility masteries, it should be possible to get it around level 10-11 and not spend more money for rg even if you don't have it in your team.
On May 28 2015 07:18 thejuju wrote: I loved lulu support I think she's my favorite support to play with. Other than a god thresh but those are rare to come by.
That is why you become a thresh god so you can get one on your team every game.easy
Then after 4 great games you fp him and enemy picks sivir/morgana and you dodge.
On May 28 2015 07:18 thejuju wrote: I loved lulu support I think she's my favorite support to play with. Other than a god thresh but those are rare to come by.
That is why you become a thresh god so you can get one on your team every game.easy
Then after 4 great games you fp him and enemy picks sivir/morgana and you dodge.
Just tell your adc he's on his own and roam top and mid constantly. :3
On May 28 2015 07:18 thejuju wrote: I loved lulu support I think she's my favorite support to play with. Other than a god thresh but those are rare to come by.
That is why you become a thresh god so you can get one on your team every game.easy
Then after 4 great games you fp him and enemy picks sivir/morgana and you dodge.
Just tell your adc he's on his own and roam top and mid constantly. :3
as an adc i hate this shit, even though it's usually for the good of the team
On May 28 2015 07:18 thejuju wrote: I loved lulu support I think she's my favorite support to play with. Other than a god thresh but those are rare to come by.
That is why you become a thresh god so you can get one on your team every game.easy
Then after 4 great games you fp him and enemy picks sivir/morgana and you dodge.
Just tell your adc he's on his own and roam top and mid constantly. :3
as an adc i hate this shit, even though it's usually for the good of the team
I only hate it when it's against a super toxic lane that you can't 1v2 well in. Or you're vayne. Then that shit is nightmare struggle.
When your support does it, do they at least warn you ahead of time, or do they just simply 'nope, fuck this laning BS, time to roam' after backing for the first or second time?
Personally I at least warn my ADC that I'm going to roam/ward first before actually leaving.
On May 28 2015 08:33 Kinie wrote: When your support does it, do they at least warn you ahead of time, or do they just simply 'nope, fuck this laning BS, time to roam' after backing for the first or second time?
Personally I at least warn my ADC that I'm going to roam/ward first before actually leaving.
they dont say shit, they just randomly roam mid/top
On May 28 2015 08:33 Kinie wrote: When your support does it, do they at least warn you ahead of time, or do they just simply 'nope, fuck this laning BS, time to roam' after backing for the first or second time?
Personally I at least warn my ADC that I'm going to roam/ward first before actually leaving.
they dont say shit, they just randomly roam mid/top
Looking at the mini-map is hard.
Use smart pings, no need to waste time typing if you don't want/like/care to do so if you do it yourself. The amount you need to do this varies by ELO of course.
Ryze now has actual functional laning and can do something before 11 at best. Should see that winrate go up significantly. 2/3 more secs of passive and before 6/11 is gonna be a big deal along with the Q buff.
Karma changes look good. 3.25 second root should be pretty silly for ganks and stuff whether solo or sup.
The mastery changes are a buff to anybody going full 21 and a nerf to 9, if anybody was still wondering. That's the short version.
Ancient Coin isn't about playing passively. It's about playing to not lose lane super hard in bad matchups or as champs that don't poke. Pretty different. Just because you think there's only one hyper-aggressive way to play support doesn't mean you're right. It's also fantastic if you just want to rush Talisman. Talisman didn't fade solely because Spellthief now provided a useful amount of gold. It faded mostly because of RG's rise.
By making coin start more useful, you're making Talisman immediately better because you'll get it sooner.
On May 28 2015 08:33 Kinie wrote: When your support does it, do they at least warn you ahead of time, or do they just simply 'nope, fuck this laning BS, time to roam' after backing for the first or second time?
Personally I at least warn my ADC that I'm going to roam/ward first before actually leaving.
they dont say shit, they just randomly roam mid/top
Looking at the mini-map is hard.
Use smart pings, no need to waste time typing if you don't want/like/care to do so if you do it yourself. The amount you need to do this varies by ELO of course.
nah it's not hard it's just annoying. you get so zoned off the creep wave, especially against champs like blitz/thresh/ali and there's a huge risk of you getting dived if your support goes roaming.
On May 28 2015 09:06 Frolossus wrote: akali change sounds like a nerf to me
If you've got Q on them, it puts you in melee range like it used to, but ahead of them. Basically flat buff. If you don't have Q on them, it still puts you further = better in most cases, and can alternately be used to escape in niche situations. It's better, just more complicated.
I still think she just needs a total rework because the kit is boring and underutilizes the theme, but it's still better for her.
Riot: We're cleaning up a few exploit cases where solo ranged attackers are resetting monster aggro to clear camps without taking damage. Be careful with those leashes
On May 28 2015 10:23 MooMooMugi wrote: Not really any major changes except for Karma, making her more of a supportive mage than burst which I dislike
.3 AP ratio increase on base W means if you root someone in Mantra Q or hit it some other way, her burst is better than before, and it's also significantly better when Mantra is down.
You lose 300 + .3 of AP ratio when you use RW, but instead gain 2 seconds of root, which will probably win you duels a lot more often anyway. In burst situations, you should use RQ. RQW now has .3 AP ratio more than before, which gets pretty significant. When you see how big the Mantra CD reductions will stack in fights after you hit 13, she's going to be very good. I'd be surprised not to see her mid just off the back of the buffed RW for ganks. You can zone with practically every single RW for fear of a gank murdering the shit out of your opponent off the back of a 3 second root, and it'll come up quite a silly amount of times post-7 and especially post 13.
On May 28 2015 10:23 MooMooMugi wrote: Not really any major changes except for Karma, making her more of a supportive mage than burst which I dislike
.3 AP ratio increase on base W means if you root someone in Mantra Q or hit it some other way, her burst is the same, and significantly better when Mantra is down.
That's true. I've been dicking around with solo lane Karma and 9 times out of 10 the combo is e-w-wait to combo properly with snare-r-q. You only really use r-w for sustain, escapes, and baiting. I don't think I've ever used r-e for the damage.
I'd love to see her played in a protect comp. With proper cd management, from her buffed passive, she shield quite a bit of damage very quickly.
On May 28 2015 10:23 MooMooMugi wrote: Not really any major changes except for Karma, making her more of a supportive mage than burst which I dislike
.3 AP ratio increase on base W means if you root someone in Mantra Q or hit it some other way, her burst is the same, and significantly better when Mantra is down.
That's true. I've been dicking around with solo lane Karma and 9 times out of 10 the combo is e-w-wait to combo properly with snare-r-q. You only really use r-w for sustain, escapes, and baiting. I don't think I've ever used r-e for the damage.
I'd love to see her played in a protect comp. With proper cd management, from her buffed passive, she shield quite a bit of damage very quickly.
I think she'll actually be really scary mid. You've now got a ton of options with the three second root. Better than many popular laners for ganks and can bully lanes hard otherwise.
On May 28 2015 10:23 MooMooMugi wrote: Not really any major changes except for Karma, making her more of a supportive mage than burst which I dislike
.3 AP ratio increase on base W means if you root someone in Mantra Q or hit it some other way, her burst is the same, and significantly better when Mantra is down.
That's true. I've been dicking around with solo lane Karma and 9 times out of 10 the combo is e-w-wait to combo properly with snare-r-q. You only really use r-w for sustain, escapes, and baiting. I don't think I've ever used r-e for the damage.
I'd love to see her played in a protect comp. With proper cd management, from her buffed passive, she shield quite a bit of damage very quickly.
I think she'll actually be really scary mid. You've now got a ton of options with the three second root. Better than many popular laners for ganks and can bully lanes hard otherwise.
Imagine how silly Lulu top/Karma mid will be.
Give it like 2 weeks for 5.10 to go to Korea, and then we'll see KOO Tigers make a resurgence with Juggermaw 2.0: Karmic Boogaloo with Lulu/Karma in top/mid, Nunu jungle, and Janna support.
On May 28 2015 10:23 MooMooMugi wrote: Not really any major changes except for Karma, making her more of a supportive mage than burst which I dislike
.3 AP ratio increase on base W means if you root someone in Mantra Q or hit it some other way, her burst is the same, and significantly better when Mantra is down.
That's true. I've been dicking around with solo lane Karma and 9 times out of 10 the combo is e-w-wait to combo properly with snare-r-q. You only really use r-w for sustain, escapes, and baiting. I don't think I've ever used r-e for the damage.
I'd love to see her played in a protect comp. With proper cd management, from her buffed passive, she shield quite a bit of damage very quickly.
I think she'll actually be really scary mid. You've now got a ton of options with the three second root. Better than many popular laners for ganks and can bully lanes hard otherwise.
Imagine how silly Lulu top/Karma mid will be.
A three second targeted root that heals you. If your jungler has any damage that is a guaranteed gank or flash pre 6. (Though granted root isn't that big then)
Real question now. Her w hits monsters/minions. Does this mean she can jungle now that she has an AOE damage and single target damage spell?
On May 28 2015 10:23 MooMooMugi wrote: Not really any major changes except for Karma, making her more of a supportive mage than burst which I dislike
.3 AP ratio increase on base W means if you root someone in Mantra Q or hit it some other way, her burst is the same, and significantly better when Mantra is down.
That's true. I've been dicking around with solo lane Karma and 9 times out of 10 the combo is e-w-wait to combo properly with snare-r-q. You only really use r-w for sustain, escapes, and baiting. I don't think I've ever used r-e for the damage.
I'd love to see her played in a protect comp. With proper cd management, from her buffed passive, she shield quite a bit of damage very quickly.
I think she'll actually be really scary mid. You've now got a ton of options with the three second root. Better than many popular laners for ganks and can bully lanes hard otherwise.
Imagine how silly Lulu top/Karma mid will be.
A three second targeted root that heals you. If your jungler has any damage that is a guaranteed gank or flash pre 6. (Though granted root isn't that big then)
Real question now. Her w hits monsters/minions. Does this mean she can jungle now that she has an AOE damage and single target damage spell?
I remember seeing jungle Karma last season here and there. I guess with the heal it'll be better now than it was before, but she's still going to have a terrible first clear with only 2 spells. Also they're taking away the ranged jungle exploit where you could use the tiny golems to block blue buff from damaging you.
1) Ban coz you are afraid of how op he is, he will stomp you if in the enemy team 2) Ban coz you are afraid that someone in your team will pick it and completely fail 3) Leave it alone coz you don't expect extremes with Ekko
Not sure where this misconception comes from but Spellthief's Edge has same passive gold income as Nomad's Medallion. That is a level 1 gold item vs a lvl 2 gold item.
That said, the other stats from Nomad's are really nice. Gold income is also only 5g to 6g lower in lane than Frostfang's gold income (if used perfectly) which is not a good item anyway.
On May 28 2015 19:49 _merK wrote: Not sure where this misconception comes from but Spellthief's Edge has same passive gold income as Nomad's Medallion. That is a level 1 gold item vs a lvl 2 gold item.
That said, the other stats from Nomad's are really nice. Gold income is also only 5g to 6g lower in lane than Frostfang's gold income (if used perfectly) which is not a good item anyway.
You should go back and redo your 2nd grade math class.
On May 28 2015 19:49 _merK wrote: Not sure where this misconception comes from but Spellthief's Edge has same passive gold income as Nomad's Medallion. That is a level 1 gold item vs a lvl 2 gold item.
That said, the other stats from Nomad's are really nice. Gold income is also only 5g to 6g lower in lane than Frostfang's gold income (if used perfectly) which is not a good item anyway.
You should go back and redo your 2nd grade math class.
10g/10sec = 60g a minute
4/creep = 48g on two normal waves, 52g on a normal and a cannon wave, and 56g on two cannon waves(35+min game time)
Ancient Coin is max 6.3 GP10 Nomads is max 10.4 GP10
Spellthief is max 7 GP10 Frostfang is max 12 GP10
But in a real game Coin line should be giving more gold now, because getting perfect or near perfect gold generation with Coin is easy, while getting perfect gold generation with Spellthief can be really hard.
Well he has to have something he's good at, right? :< Shen is so weak since the taunt nerfs, it's become ridiculously hard to hit and you have to straight-up go through them, not just touch them, and you only bring that and your ult to the game, considering that most off laners with TP have more impact than a Shen ulting in, despite the longer cooldown.
I don't understand why they make passives like Ekko's where its insanely better than preexisting champions passives while also being very similar. It's basically Diana passive but it works with spells, slows enemy champions (80% for 3 seconds at level 11, what?), and gives him a speed buff equal to the slow. I would expect there to be a significant difference in damage given the above, but it's only 50 base damage and a 0.1 AP scaling difference, which is nuts considering how much easier it will probably be to trigger it against champions since it works with spells. All that extra junk compared to poor Diana's 20% extra attack speed lol.
The rest of his kit could be complete garbage, and I'd still think this is crazy. Even if it is heavily gated by cooldowns it seems obscene.
On May 28 2015 23:46 zer0das wrote: I don't understand why they make passive's like Ekko's where its insanely better than preexisting champions passives while also being very similar. It's basically Diana passive but it works with spells, slows enemy champions (80% for 3 seconds at level 11, what?), and gives him a speed buff equal to the slow. I would expect there to be a significant difference in damage given the above, but it's only 50 base damage and a 0.1 AP scaling difference, which is nuts considering how much easier it will probably be to trigger it against champions since it works with spells. All that extra junk compared to poor Diana's 20% extra attack speed lol.
The rest of his kit could be complete garbage, and I'd still think this is crazy. Even if it is heavily gated by cooldowns it seems obscene.
Ekko needs all 3 hits on a target whereas Diana can proc with only 1 (on enemy)
On May 28 2015 23:48 schmutttt wrote: OK TL, I know a lot of you would spam Pantheon back in the day. Can someone tell me wtf beats him in lane? Malph? Shen? Vlad? I have no idea.
Everything that can sustain his harass is a soft win (e.g. cloth armor + 5 pots, or flask +3), meaning that if he doesn't kill you or completely zone you and you have enough pressure on him to diminish his roams - its a win. If you talk about hard wins: Ranged champs like Brand, Syndra, Ahri, Lulu are pain in the ass, Darius is a worth mention, I won't be surprised if Rumble/Vlad are also a problem. You mentioned Malph and I would add Sion, but these are again soft wins, they dont have kill/zone pressure on panth
p.s. Back in the day as you put it, Olaf was a huge problem for Panth, but this was before the rework, no idea how it is now.
Just start clotch+5 pots against panth and you are fine. You'll shit him once you get your revolver. vlad beats everyone once he gets revolver/ancient.
Panth is more or less a race of his mana vs. your hp, though if you take tele and use it to back and get cloth + pots it makes the lane pretty even if you're ostensibly at a disadvantage. Pretty much anyone with range beats Panth, melee you can't really "win lane", though I guess Rumble would probably do the best.
You could be a dick and play Yorick, Olaf might be okay. Elise maybe, but I think she was nerfed too hard.
Anybody who puts out good sustained damage and/or likes to build armor will beat Pantheon. Rumble and Darius destroy him. If they're trying to cheese you, you can just go cloth/5pot and win by default.
I don't like the cheese strat on panth though. Unless I'm v Riven or some shit I hard-counter, it'll never work. Prefer to just run TP and go bruiser.
On May 28 2015 23:46 zer0das wrote: I don't understand why they make passive's like Ekko's where its insanely better than preexisting champions passives while also being very similar. It's basically Diana passive but it works with spells, slows enemy champions (80% for 3 seconds at level 11, what?), and gives him a speed buff equal to the slow. I would expect there to be a significant difference in damage given the above, but it's only 50 base damage and a 0.1 AP scaling difference, which is nuts considering how much easier it will probably be to trigger it against champions since it works with spells. All that extra junk compared to poor Diana's 20% extra attack speed lol.
The rest of his kit could be complete garbage, and I'd still think this is crazy. Even if it is heavily gated by cooldowns it seems obscene.
Balance doesn't happen in a vacuum.
I don't know how balanced Ekko is or isn't yet, but that mindset is still wrong.
On May 28 2015 23:46 zer0das wrote: I don't understand why they make passive's like Ekko's where its insanely better than preexisting champions passives while also being very similar. It's basically Diana passive but it works with spells, slows enemy champions (80% for 3 seconds at level 11, what?), and gives him a speed buff equal to the slow. I would expect there to be a significant difference in damage given the above, but it's only 50 base damage and a 0.1 AP scaling difference, which is nuts considering how much easier it will probably be to trigger it against champions since it works with spells. All that extra junk compared to poor Diana's 20% extra attack speed lol.
The rest of his kit could be complete garbage, and I'd still think this is crazy. Even if it is heavily gated by cooldowns it seems obscene.
To be fair Diana's passive has no cooldown, does AoE damage, and is target independent. After Ekko procs his passive on someone he's locked out of stacking it again until 3 seconds have past.
That said, I think the slow/speed boost are probably overkill.
I also bet dollars to donuts that Riot walks back the "enemies can't see where you placed his W" thing at some point.
Pantheon poops all over Yorick. Yorick of now isn't Yorick of old. He's not bad in lane by any stretch of the imagination, but you're not going to kill Panth in that lane - you just want to out sustain him. If you're going to go the outsustain route, there are plenty of easier champions to play, Cho being likely at the forefront of that. As long as you can build armor versus him and not slow down your core build you should be good as long as you play passively. The good Panths will take the small advantage and pressure mid/jungle heavily for it, but you don't see many good Panths nowadays.
On May 28 2015 23:46 zer0das wrote: I don't understand why they make passive's like Ekko's where its insanely better than preexisting champions passives while also being very similar. It's basically Diana passive but it works with spells, slows enemy champions (80% for 3 seconds at level 11, what?), and gives him a speed buff equal to the slow. I would expect there to be a significant difference in damage given the above, but it's only 50 base damage and a 0.1 AP scaling difference, which is nuts considering how much easier it will probably be to trigger it against champions since it works with spells. All that extra junk compared to poor Diana's 20% extra attack speed lol.
The rest of his kit could be complete garbage, and I'd still think this is crazy. Even if it is heavily gated by cooldowns it seems obscene.
And the 20% AS isn't even a benefit. It's a way for Riot to keep her base AS slow so she doesn't scale well with AS.
On May 29 2015 00:18 Caiada wrote: Anybody who puts out good sustained damage and/or likes to build armor will beat Pantheon. Rumble and Darius destroy him. If they're trying to cheese you, you can just go cloth/5pot and win by default.
I don't like the cheese strat on panth though. Unless I'm v Riven or some shit I hard-counter, it'll never work. Prefer to just run TP and go bruiser.
On May 28 2015 23:46 zer0das wrote: I don't understand why they make passive's like Ekko's where its insanely better than preexisting champions passives while also being very similar. It's basically Diana passive but it works with spells, slows enemy champions (80% for 3 seconds at level 11, what?), and gives him a speed buff equal to the slow. I would expect there to be a significant difference in damage given the above, but it's only 50 base damage and a 0.1 AP scaling difference, which is nuts considering how much easier it will probably be to trigger it against champions since it works with spells. All that extra junk compared to poor Diana's 20% extra attack speed lol.
The rest of his kit could be complete garbage, and I'd still think this is crazy. Even if it is heavily gated by cooldowns it seems obscene.
Balance doesn't happen in a vacuum.
I don't know how balanced Ekko is or isn't yet, but that mindset is still wrong.
Never really had an issue against panth. Shielding spears for days.
On May 28 2015 19:17 Lonyo wrote: Coin is for Bard. AFK non-lane guy wanders to get chimes, earning some passive gold and gold when he goes near a lane and gets some mana regen.
You have the mentality backwards, actually. Assuming Bard is wandering and only occasionally pops into a lane (which is not the case), Bard prefers the spellthief's line so that all three stacks can be blown through quickly and roaming can be resumed "without loss", whereas leaving lane when any minion dies with the coin line generates some "loss".
On May 28 2015 23:46 zer0das wrote: I don't understand why they make passive's like Ekko's where its insanely better than preexisting champions passives while also being very similar. It's basically Diana passive but it works with spells, slows enemy champions (80% for 3 seconds at level 11, what?), and gives him a speed buff equal to the slow. I would expect there to be a significant difference in damage given the above, but it's only 50 base damage and a 0.1 AP scaling difference, which is nuts considering how much easier it will probably be to trigger it against champions since it works with spells. All that extra junk compared to poor Diana's 20% extra attack speed lol.
The rest of his kit could be complete garbage, and I'd still think this is crazy. Even if it is heavily gated by cooldowns it seems obscene.
And the 20% AS isn't even a benefit. It's a way for Riot to keep her base AS slow so she doesn't scale well with AS.
On May 29 2015 00:18 Caiada wrote: Anybody who puts out good sustained damage and/or likes to build armor will beat Pantheon. Rumble and Darius destroy him. If they're trying to cheese you, you can just go cloth/5pot and win by default.
I don't like the cheese strat on panth though. Unless I'm v Riven or some shit I hard-counter, it'll never work. Prefer to just run TP and go bruiser.
On May 28 2015 23:46 zer0das wrote: I don't understand why they make passive's like Ekko's where its insanely better than preexisting champions passives while also being very similar. It's basically Diana passive but it works with spells, slows enemy champions (80% for 3 seconds at level 11, what?), and gives him a speed buff equal to the slow. I would expect there to be a significant difference in damage given the above, but it's only 50 base damage and a 0.1 AP scaling difference, which is nuts considering how much easier it will probably be to trigger it against champions since it works with spells. All that extra junk compared to poor Diana's 20% extra attack speed lol.
The rest of his kit could be complete garbage, and I'd still think this is crazy. Even if it is heavily gated by cooldowns it seems obscene.
Balance doesn't happen in a vacuum.
I don't know how balanced Ekko is or isn't yet, but that mindset is still wrong.
Never really had an issue against panth. Shielding spears for days.
The moment Riven's low enough, she's basically dead, and you can put out more spears and more favorable trades in general because CDs and a point-and-click stun that outranges her.
Nobody knows how to do anything but cheese or jungle with panth though so /shrug
Also most Rivens I'm vs dunno how to do anything but all in all the time forever.
A single gank from the jungler to give your opponent time to pot up can be enough to make you oom if you're playing aggressive though, even if it doesn't kill you outright.
im not going to build RG on zac or j4 (pretty much only junglers i play atm) and FotM is way too expensive, warmog/thornmail is super cheap and i feel the extra 300hp makes actually a big difference early/mid game helps a lot to survive ap burst and its not like its useless vs ad, after i get thornmail enemy adc cant touch me until he gets 3+ items also extra effect of adc hurting himself when he hits me helps a lot to solo zone them from team fights(works wonders vs draven lol) i used to rush randuin every game now i just fell in love in warmog, its not that its good as item, mallet is clearly better but it has that weird midgame power spike which makes me like it more than randuin as a rush item
I actually started building FOTM instead of Warmog's and Locket instead of Spirit Visage recently, but I'm still not sold on getting Thornmail instead of Randuin's. Feels like the build is too cheap and I'm an HP junky. No idea when to get Righteous but that's probably just not a good item on Rek'Sai.
oh wait for some reason i thought fotm meant frozen mallet im still not convinced, warmog has way better build path with fotm i cant just stack inventory with ruby crystals, with active its clearly better but it wont be always up also im not that good at keeping track of this shit in team fight + pretty sure i would get reported if i did bad in games with fotm rush jungler lol
On May 28 2015 23:46 zer0das wrote: I don't understand why they make passive's like Ekko's where its insanely better than preexisting champions passives while also being very similar. It's basically Diana passive but it works with spells, slows enemy champions (80% for 3 seconds at level 11, what?), and gives him a speed buff equal to the slow. I would expect there to be a significant difference in damage given the above, but it's only 50 base damage and a 0.1 AP scaling difference, which is nuts considering how much easier it will probably be to trigger it against champions since it works with spells. All that extra junk compared to poor Diana's 20% extra attack speed lol.
The rest of his kit could be complete garbage, and I'd still think this is crazy. Even if it is heavily gated by cooldowns it seems obscene.
And the 20% AS isn't even a benefit. It's a way for Riot to keep her base AS slow so she doesn't scale well with AS.
On May 29 2015 00:18 Caiada wrote: Anybody who puts out good sustained damage and/or likes to build armor will beat Pantheon. Rumble and Darius destroy him. If they're trying to cheese you, you can just go cloth/5pot and win by default.
I don't like the cheese strat on panth though. Unless I'm v Riven or some shit I hard-counter, it'll never work. Prefer to just run TP and go bruiser.
On May 28 2015 23:46 zer0das wrote: I don't understand why they make passive's like Ekko's where its insanely better than preexisting champions passives while also being very similar. It's basically Diana passive but it works with spells, slows enemy champions (80% for 3 seconds at level 11, what?), and gives him a speed buff equal to the slow. I would expect there to be a significant difference in damage given the above, but it's only 50 base damage and a 0.1 AP scaling difference, which is nuts considering how much easier it will probably be to trigger it against champions since it works with spells. All that extra junk compared to poor Diana's 20% extra attack speed lol.
The rest of his kit could be complete garbage, and I'd still think this is crazy. Even if it is heavily gated by cooldowns it seems obscene.
Balance doesn't happen in a vacuum.
I don't know how balanced Ekko is or isn't yet, but that mindset is still wrong.
Never really had an issue against panth. Shielding spears for days.
The moment Riven's low enough, she's basically dead, and you can put out more spears and more favorable trades in general because CDs and a point-and-click stun that outranges her.
Nobody knows how to do anything but cheese or jungle with panth though so /shrug
Also most Rivens I'm vs dunno how to do anything but all in all the time forever.
Well, part of the issue with that is Pantheon is a matchup that you don't play standard as Riven against. I cringe whenever I see Riven's start Q and max it against Pantheon. Between E ranks and Riven's "standard" CDR heavy build the CD goes down fast pretty quickly. Yeah, it's a bit painful when she can't avoid all the spears, but being able to deal with most of them is far more useful than the damage she does take to deal with Panth's mana pool.
How do you guys feel about Warmogs on Cinderhulk users (in general)? I'm on the train of fotm > warmogs but i would think Warmogs is better if you get Cinderhulk from a certain time onwards.
On May 29 2015 03:05 kongoline wrote: i started building warmog >thornmail instead of rushing randuin on junglers and i like it a lot more
I do this basically every game on Voli unless they have double AP or something. It's super effective. I really don't like Randuins in general. Even though statwise it's pretty good. I just never feel tanky enough when I build it.
On May 29 2015 03:05 kongoline wrote: i started building warmog >thornmail instead of rushing randuin on junglers and i like it a lot more
I do this basically every game on Voli unless they have double AP or something. It's super effective. I really don't like Randuins in general. Even though statwise it's pretty good. I just never feel tanky enough when I build it.
my duo partner plays a lot of voli atm going cinderhulk->righteous glory most of the time
On May 29 2015 10:34 krndandaman wrote: so I tried karma support a bit today and wow she feels great.
especially that one time we ran a sejuani, sivir, karma comp and would literally start running with righteous glory / sivir ult / karma R E / talisman from our tier 2 turret and chase down 2 at their tier 2 as soon as we saw them start to 1-3-1. fucking hilarious lol
On May 29 2015 13:17 thejuju wrote: On a scale of one to teemo how cancerous is ekko?
Terminal cancer, inoperable.
But for real though, based upon my 1 game with him, shit is bonkers, like the damage/burst he does once he gets even a couple items (ie., Ludens and Lich Bane) is enough to make him ban-worthy.
And lets not even talk about the insane damage his ult does. I constantly got 3 and 4 man bursts with the ulti, usually going back in with a W landing the same time as I go back in. So not only do they eat a billion damage, they are stunned for 2.25 seconds. It's like an AP Sejuani ult, only you get healed for it and deal way more damage.
I still love the design of Ekko's Passive + Q. Its the Homeguard-R interaction, W being invisible, and having a dash+mini blink, that combined seem poorly thought out.
On May 29 2015 13:17 thejuju wrote: On a scale of one to teemo how cancerous is ekko?
If I had to guess I would say that he is medium strength against many in meta choices but it a nail in the coffin of skillshot mages. I am not convinced he crushes LB/Zed/Cassio or even Cho/Liss but if you play Lux/Xerath/Lulu he will punish you insanely hard if you cast anything on the wave. Dash the skill shot/blink onto them then Q so they can't leave and go to town. Bam they are half dead or more.
If I were to take a shot on what they will nerf it is the shield strength. The first time i walked into it I had a serious WTF moment as a Lux main. 150+ 0.8 ratio at rank one is huge with any items especially considering it is a secondary effect.
On May 29 2015 13:17 thejuju wrote: On a scale of one to teemo how cancerous is ekko?
If I had to guess I would say that he is medium strength against many in meta choices but it a nail in the coffin of skillshot mages. I am not convinced he crushes LB/Zed/Cassio or even Cho/Liss but if you play Lux/Xerath/Lulu he will punish you insanely hard if you cast anything on the wave. Dash the skill shot/blink onto them then Q so they can't leave and go to town. Bam they are half dead or more.
If I were to take a shot on what they will nerf it is the shield strength. The first time i walked into it I had a serious WTF moment as a Lux main. 150+ 0.8 ratio at rank one is huge with any items especially considering it is a secondary effect.
in my experiences yasuo tends to do very well in lane against him. i think that the projectile width needs to be reduced, the shield decreased, something about the dash needs a better visual particle, ult shouldn't be useable from base
On May 29 2015 13:17 thejuju wrote: On a scale of one to teemo how cancerous is ekko?
If I had to guess I would say that he is medium strength against many in meta choices but it a nail in the coffin of skillshot mages. I am not convinced he crushes LB/Zed/Cassio or even Cho/Liss but if you play Lux/Xerath/Lulu he will punish you insanely hard if you cast anything on the wave. Dash the skill shot/blink onto them then Q so they can't leave and go to town. Bam they are half dead or more.
If I were to take a shot on what they will nerf it is the shield strength. The first time i walked into it I had a serious WTF moment as a Lux main. 150+ 0.8 ratio at rank one is huge with any items especially considering it is a secondary effect.
in my experiences yasuo tends to do very well in lane against him. i think that the projectile width needs to be reduced, the shield decreased, something about the dash needs a better visual particle, ult shouldn't be useable from base
This seems like overkill to me. Having a workable lane combo is basically required for an assassin to be relevant and I don't mind that he can use R to return lane. I think his damage is actually in a decent place I just think he (and assassins in general) should have to take a lot of risk to go deep. Between dash/TP/shield/slow/speed boost/stun/time reversal they just overloaded him with safety.
This is kind of a nonsense question in a way but I'm curious:
Are there any champs that have been released for quite a while that you simply have never played? I was thinking about this while I'm in champ select and realize I've never once played Jayce.
On May 29 2015 14:09 I_Love_Bacon wrote: This is kind of a nonsense question in a way but I'm curious:
Are there any champs that have been released for quite a while that you simply have never played? I was thinking about this while I'm in champ select and realize I've never once played Jayce.
I don't recall ever having played Skarner, but it may have happened at some point.
On May 29 2015 13:36 cLutZ wrote: I still love the design of Ekko's Passive + Q. Its the Homeguard-R interaction, W being invisible, and having a dash+mini blink, that combined seem poorly thought out.
I think I actually like W and R the best, since they fit the whole "Echo" vision of a time mage/fighter/something a lot than stealing speed and throwing a random thing. The combination is a glorious mess of particles and balance though. Only played in one game vs ai with one on my team. Ekko didn't really seem to do anything? The player was pretty bad, though.
Played another game on Ekko, and I've gleamed more from the experience:
Against a normal mage (I went vs. a Lux, so take my opinion w/ a grain of salt) he can be poked/harassed out of lane pre-6, though he can still CS with his Q if you aim it properly to make sure it boomerangs back to you and hit a lot of low health minions. It's a risk though, because if you are feeling ballsy you can definitely do a lot of burst damage with a Q into W-E combo that'll inflict like 200-300 damage.
Post 6 you can use the ult as a TP if you get forced out of lane. I never tried rushing homeguards on him, I didn't think it was worth it when you want the items on him to do stuff.
Getting either Lich Bane or Luden's Echo first is recommended. Lich Bane if you expect to be split pushing, Ludens for wave clear and teamfight.
Speaking of team fights, you need to keep track of your shadow to make sure you don't accidentally TP back in when you are 1v4 and trying to disengage. His engage is solid though, with the W stun hitting when you dash + blink in with the E.
On May 29 2015 13:36 cLutZ wrote: I still love the design of Ekko's Passive + Q. Its the Homeguard-R interaction, W being invisible, and having a dash+mini blink, that combined seem poorly thought out.
I think I actually like W and R the best, since they fit the whole "Echo" vision of a time mage/fighter/something a lot than stealing speed and throwing a random thing. The combination is a glorious mess of particles and balance though. Only played in one game vs ai with one on my team. Ekko didn't really seem to do anything? The player was pretty bad, though.
I mean, if you care about lore, sure. I'm simply saying it from the POV that a good champ could/should be built around his Passive+Q, whereas WER shouldn't all be in one kit. At least as long as W stays invisible, and honestly I'm just not very excited about having more champs with dashes.
The issue with the W is that, for the enemy side, you see the circle (and it's a big ass circle at that) about .5 seconds before it lands. So even if you know where it's going to land, unless you're on the edge of the circle it's going to hit you or you are gonna have to flash out of it.
Not to mention the line for how large the circle is going to be is pretty hard to see (due to the greenish aura it has, which is hard to see even for me and I'm not color blind.)
On May 29 2015 14:16 Kinie wrote: Played another game on Ekko, and I've gleamed more from the experience:
Against a normal mage (I went vs. a Lux, so take my opinion w/ a grain of salt) he can be poked/harassed out of lane pre-6, though he can still CS with his Q if you aim it properly to make sure it boomerangs back to you and hit a lot of low health minions. It's a risk though, because if you are feeling ballsy you can definitely do a lot of burst damage with a Q into W-E combo that'll inflict like 200-300 damage.
Post 6 you can use the ult as a TP if you get forced out of lane. I never tried rushing homeguards on him, I didn't think it was worth it when you want the items on him to do stuff.
Getting either Lich Bane or Luden's Echo first is recommended. Lich Bane if you expect to be split pushing, Ludens for wave clear and teamfight.
Speaking of team fights, you need to keep track of your shadow to make sure you don't accidentally TP back in when you are 1v4 and trying to disengage. His engage is solid though, with the W stun hitting when you dash + blink in with the E.
He has a lot of all in potential against most standard mages from what I've played. If lux fires a q + e, I'd imagine you can just dodge the q with your e, jump on her with it and wreck her face. The damage from e'ing onto someone, q then auto, then using the slow + speed boost to double proc q, is pretty disgusting. Haven't tried that specific matchup, but vs xerath, cass etc it felt pretty simple.
You really need morellos though imo, both for mana regen (you want to spend teamfights kiting around, hopefully lasting til the end, which runs you oom fast) and for the cdr. (cdr on ult is really big in mid and lategame, as you can back without having to run back to lane.)
I've had good success running agressive runes (flat ap blues and quints), going q max, morellos -> ludens -> dc/zhonyas/void. I didn't like lich that much, just because your ratios are so crazy, and a lot of the mid to late damage is just q poke too.
Other random stuff. homeguard boots are a must, recalling, buying, and ulting back with full everyhting and a speed boost is literally cancer. The W circle doesn't appear for the enemy until it's about to hit, so if you fire w from out of sight, then run up and all in someone right as it goes visible, you can catch them off guard. holyshadowdamagesbatman
I don't think he needs a mana regen item. Would he like one? Yeah, but I think if he gets blue buff it'll be just fine. I found that the CD on his ult is actually pretty accurate as-is. I had it up for most fights, or was about to have it come up right when a fight was getting ready to break out.
The reason why Lich Bane is so good is because your E triggers it, and when combined with the E's additional on-hit damage it does a lot of burst damage (approx. 400-500 against a tank, 600-800 against a squishy mid or ADC). Also, the E's extra damage applies to turrets/structures as well, so you're basically doubling up the damage a normal Lich Bane'd AA does to a turret.
For me, I had AP quints, Magic Pen reds, flat armor yellows, flat MR blues. The first game on him I went 21/0/9 (3 points in move speed, RIP mana regen mastery) and felt ok. Second game I went 21/9.09 and still felt ok, was a tiny bit tankier for lane phase which did help out in some ganking situations where I got out with ~50 HP.
But yeah, he's AP Riven like people were thinking he was. Champ's so much fun, and the snowball with him is almost as strong. I know Monte tweeted something similar, but I can't wait for the playmaking mid laners in Korea (ie., Faker) get a chance to use Ekko in a professional game. If he hits the tournament realm as-is, he's going to have to be permabanned in LCK.
On May 29 2015 15:42 Kinie wrote: I don't think he needs a mana regen item. Would he like one? Yeah, but I think if he gets blue buff it'll be just fine. I found that the CD on his ult is actually pretty accurate as-is. I had it up for most fights, or was about to have it come up right when a fight was getting ready to break out.
The reason why Lich Bane is so good is because your E triggers it, and when combined with the E's additional on-hit damage it does a lot of burst damage (approx. 400-500 against a tank, 600-800 against a squishy mid or ADC). Also, the E's extra damage applies to turrets/structures as well, so you're basically doubling up the damage a normal Lich Bane'd AA does to a turret.
For me, I had AP quints, Magic Pen reds, flat armor yellows, flat MR blues. The first game on him I went 21/0/9 (3 points in move speed, RIP mana regen mastery) and felt ok. Second game I went 21/9.09 and still felt ok, was a tiny bit tankier for lane phase which did help out in some ganking situations where I got out with ~50 HP.
But yeah, he's AP Riven like people were thinking he was. Champ's so much fun, and the snowball with him is almost as strong. I know Monte tweeted something similar, but I can't wait for the playmaking mid laners in Korea (ie., Faker) get a chance to use Ekko in a professional game. If he hits the tournament realm as-is, he's going to have to be permabanned in LCK.
I get that your e triggerslichbane, but it just doesn't seem to synergise that well with his actual all in pattern.
Lichbane is strong on champs with low ap ratios, and champs you can proc it a lot in a fight. Ekko has insane ap ratios, and his typical lane or gank combo is e -> q -> aa then either two more autos and land second q, or back off. You only get one proc of lichbane out of that.
Compared to the wavecontrol that being able to spam q gives you, (as well as being able to e-q-aa-run as your trading pattern, without going oom) just feels much stronger to me, and the 20% cdr makes teamfighting much easier (and puts your ult on a crazy short cd, which creates all sorts of lane pressure by itself.)
I guess i could see it working if you want to play him like a talon, who bursts one guy then runs away, but that just seems like a waste given how much consistent damage you have the potential to put out over longer teamfights.
On May 29 2015 14:09 I_Love_Bacon wrote: This is kind of a nonsense question in a way but I'm curious:
Are there any champs that have been released for quite a while that you simply have never played? I was thinking about this while I'm in champ select and realize I've never once played Jayce.
Ekko... I've played every champ at least once, but looking at my champ page and thinking about those 1 time experiences with Udyr, Wukong, and Rengar when I had no idea what I was doing before probuilds. It wouldn't be unfair to say I've never played those champs.
Pretty sure I've never played heca, i don't think I've played viktor, but I have vague memories of missing lasers, so i might have played him in a free week once.
On May 29 2015 14:09 I_Love_Bacon wrote: This is kind of a nonsense question in a way but I'm curious:
Are there any champs that have been released for quite a while that you simply have never played? I was thinking about this while I'm in champ select and realize I've never once played Jayce.
Pretty sure I've never played Warwick, Tristana or Jax, and they were in the game since it existed. I can't remember if i've ever played Sivir or Yi either, but i have doubts.
On May 29 2015 15:42 Kinie wrote: I don't think he needs a mana regen item. Would he like one? Yeah, but I think if he gets blue buff it'll be just fine. I found that the CD on his ult is actually pretty accurate as-is. I had it up for most fights, or was about to have it come up right when a fight was getting ready to break out.
The reason why Lich Bane is so good is because your E triggers it, and when combined with the E's additional on-hit damage it does a lot of burst damage (approx. 400-500 against a tank, 600-800 against a squishy mid or ADC). Also, the E's extra damage applies to turrets/structures as well, so you're basically doubling up the damage a normal Lich Bane'd AA does to a turret.
For me, I had AP quints, Magic Pen reds, flat armor yellows, flat MR blues. The first game on him I went 21/0/9 (3 points in move speed, RIP mana regen mastery) and felt ok. Second game I went 21/9.09 and still felt ok, was a tiny bit tankier for lane phase which did help out in some ganking situations where I got out with ~50 HP.
But yeah, he's AP Riven like people were thinking he was. Champ's so much fun, and the snowball with him is almost as strong. I know Monte tweeted something similar, but I can't wait for the playmaking mid laners in Korea (ie., Faker) get a chance to use Ekko in a professional game. If he hits the tournament realm as-is, he's going to have to be permabanned in LCK.
I get that your e triggerslichbane, but it just doesn't seem to synergise that well with his actual all in pattern.
Lichbane is strong on champs with low ap ratios, and champs you can proc it a lot in a fight. Ekko has insane ap ratios, and his typical lane or gank combo is e -> q -> aa then either two more autos and land second q, or back off. You only get one proc of lichbane out of that.
Compared to the wavecontrol that being able to spam q gives you, (as well as being able to e-q-aa-run as your trading pattern, without going oom) just feels much stronger to me, and the 20% cdr makes teamfighting much easier (and puts your ult on a crazy short cd, which creates all sorts of lane pressure by itself.)
I guess i could see it working if you want to play him like a talon, who bursts one guy then runs away, but that just seems like a waste given how much consistent damage you have the potential to put out over longer teamfights.
I'll give Morellos/Athenes a try next time I get a chance to play Ekko on SR, but I don't know when that will be. His ratios aren't that amazing though, they're ok for now but when they get nerfed (and you know they will) I think that will only enforce the idea of getting Lich Bane on him.
Played a normal game vs Ekko (not in the same lane) and half of the times he killed me I could not understand how. For example we are both low health after a duel, but he is like one hit away from dying and I am 1/4 health, he zhonyas himself and knowing that he will have his CDs after that, I start walking away and then I die. Felt like Zed's death mark or something. I just burst up at some point and I have no idea what is going on xD
On May 29 2015 10:34 krndandaman wrote: so I tried karma support a bit today and wow she feels great.
especially that one time we ran a sejuani, sivir, karma comp and would literally start running with righteous glory / sivir ult / karma R E / talisman from our tier 2 turret and chase down 2 at their tier 2 as soon as we saw them start to 1-3-1. fucking hilarious lol
~32s cd Talisman yo That was crazy, you use it to chase someone when a skirmish breaks out, you kill him, reach a tower and start sieging but they put you low, and it's already back up to disengage. I'm def. going Coin if playing Sona, just to get Talisman after Sightstone (helps with her mana issues too).
Ekko's W passive destroys you if you're below 30%, his autos do something like 5%+ of your max HP per hit, on top of his passive (if you already had stuff on you). His total dash with initial blink + ranged auto is something like 825 range too so running away isn't enough.
Alternatively he may have just used his ult if you ran over his trail while fleeing. But since Riot fucked up with his particles it's easy to confuse it with his W.
The problem is that Ekko just has too much utility and different ways to use skills. Dude has more combo potential and utility than Lulu on a champ that does damage.
On May 29 2015 18:23 ticklishmusic wrote: The problem is that Ekko just has too much utility and different ways to use skills. Dude has more combo potential and utility than Lulu on a champ that does damage.
I'm going to keep harping on this (because I want to drive this point home) :
Ekko is basically AP Riven. Maybe not as many mechanical options and interactions as her (insert some dumb clip of boxbox's Riven here) but the damage, utility, and outplay potential is almost as large.
Honestly, it might be better to think of Ekko in-lane as Riven if this is your first time playing against him; if you're at/below 50% hp, expect an all-in to kill you.
So far I've played 3 games with an ekko, one time he carried hard, and 2 other times he got completely shit on. It was surprising though, he was able to 1v1 the fed ass katarina pretty well even while being 0/5 vs. 4/0 or something like that.
I've said it before, but they could completely remove the slow/speedup from his passive, the execute passive on W, and make W's target location completely visible to enemies and Ekko would probably still be a good champion.
On May 29 2015 14:09 I_Love_Bacon wrote: This is kind of a nonsense question in a way but I'm curious:
Are there any champs that have been released for quite a while that you simply have never played? I was thinking about this while I'm in champ select and realize I've never once played Jayce.
I have like 3k+ games played and I've probably never played 20 to 25 champions. Maybe more
On May 29 2015 19:11 Alaric wrote: But Riven can do that if you're at/below 100% though.
Riven doesn't use mana for her skills, Ekko does. So you have to be a bit careful with that. I'm sure given enough time (hah) Ekko can 100-0 someone in lane, it's just harder to do in mid due to how short the lane is compared to the mile long field that is top lane.
On May 29 2015 13:17 thejuju wrote: On a scale of one to teemo how cancerous is ekko?
Terminal cancer, inoperable.
But for real though, based upon my 1 game with him, shit is bonkers, like the damage/burst he does once he gets even a couple items (ie., Ludens and Lich Bane) is enough to make him ban-worthy.
And lets not even talk about the insane damage his ult does. I constantly got 3 and 4 man bursts with the ulti, usually going back in with a W landing the same time as I go back in. So not only do they eat a billion damage, they are stunned for 2.25 seconds. It's like an AP Sejuani ult, only you get healed for it and deal way more damage.
You know, i don't think lichbane or luden's is all that good on him aside from the move speed
You've got 1.7 AP ratio on E,Q,Auto. And you're more or less guaranteed to get it all off if you land an E(or you die).
Lichbane adds .5 AP ratio to that combo, and you won't get a second proc before your CD's are up again unless you wait on your Q for 1.5 seconds
Deathcap adds .51 AP effective ratio on a 1.7 AP combo. So you're only up the 50 base damage but down the extra base AP. But Deathcap also clears waves better, and deathcap does more damage on his W passive, and Deathcap gives you a bigger shield on your W, and Deathcap makes your ult hilarious.
Luden's has a similar issue though it does make his poke/clear a lot better. The breakpoint on a combo where luden's does more damage is under 286 base AP. So first item plus a quarter/half way through your second big item. That is good, plus the proc makes clearing waves easier since you're not going to have trouble with the ranged minions and the proc perfectly hits the melee. But you still lose on your shield and ult.
From there would you rather have the damage or Zhonya's Active? Or pen from Void? Or CDR from morellos? Or mixed offense/defense from abyssal (you're melee anyway, so the pen is super strong)
I can see lich after cap (after all it has almost the same multiplicative effect on non-ult damage as cap, just less AP and less ancillary effects). But i can't really see a great use of Luden's unless you really really really need that wave clear. If you already have cap then Lich>Luden. If you already have Lich/Cap then Zhonya/Void/Abyssal/Morello's all seem better.
New Karma has been really fun to play. The level 2 all-in with RW, followed by RWing the crab, gives you such an advantage in lane. I like having that extra bit of kill pressure on a poke support, and the lategame 3.25s root was pretty silly Haven't tried it in ranked yet, but I'm looking forward to it.
On May 29 2015 14:36 Kinie wrote: The issue with the W is that, for the enemy side, you see the circle (and it's a big ass circle at that) about .5 seconds before it lands. So even if you know where it's going to land, unless you're on the edge of the circle it's going to hit you or you are gonna have to flash out of it.
Not to mention the line for how large the circle is going to be is pretty hard to see (due to the greenish aura it has, which is hard to see even for me and I'm not color blind.)
The issue with w is that it has 8 billion range, grants vision, and is a veigar sized stun without leveling it up. And if you miss you can still pass through it for a fuck off sized shield.
On May 29 2015 13:17 thejuju wrote: On a scale of one to teemo how cancerous is ekko?
Terminal cancer, inoperable.
But for real though, based upon my 1 game with him, shit is bonkers, like the damage/burst he does once he gets even a couple items (ie., Ludens and Lich Bane) is enough to make him ban-worthy.
And lets not even talk about the insane damage his ult does. I constantly got 3 and 4 man bursts with the ulti, usually going back in with a W landing the same time as I go back in. So not only do they eat a billion damage, they are stunned for 2.25 seconds. It's like an AP Sejuani ult, only you get healed for it and deal way more damage.
You know, i don't think lichbane or luden's is all that good on him aside from the move speed
You've got 1.7 AP ratio on E,Q,Auto. And you're more or less guaranteed to get it all off if you land an E(or you die).
Lichbane adds .5 AP ratio to that combo, and you won't get a second proc before your CD's are up again unless you wait on your Q for 1.5 seconds
Deathcap adds .51 AP effective ratio on a 1.7 AP combo. So you're only up the 50 base damage but down the extra base AP. But Deathcap also clears waves better, and deathcap does more damage on his W passive, and Deathcap gives you a bigger shield on your W, and Deathcap makes your ult hilarious.
Luden's has a similar issue though it does make his poke/clear a lot better. The breakpoint on a combo where luden's does more damage is under 286 base AP. So first item plus a quarter/half way through your second big item. That is good, plus the proc makes clearing waves easier since you're not going to have trouble with the ranged minions and the proc perfectly hits the melee. But you still lose on your shield and ult.
From there would you rather have the damage or Zhonya's Active? Or pen from Void? Or CDR from morellos? Or mixed offense/defense from abyssal (you're melee anyway, so the pen is super strong)
I can see lich after cap (after all it has almost the same multiplicative effect on non-ult damage as cap, just less AP and less ancillary effects). But i can't really see a great use of Luden's unless you really really really need that wave clear. If you already have cap then Lich>Luden. If you already have Lich/Cap then Zhonya/Void/Abyssal/Morello's all seem better.
Of course Deathcap is good on Ekko, it lets his W shield be massive and the HP recovery on his ult also large.
The reason why Lich Bane is strong on Ekko is similar to the reason why it's so good on Fizz: you can proc it multiple times on a mage that benefits from AAing (Fizz's W passive + active, Ekko's passive and W passive) and have a kit that benefits from the stats Lich Bane gives (move speed, more mana, some AP).
I think it's going to be situational on how you build him (depending upon matchups and team comps) but as I see it, Ekko will benefit the most from the following items:
Ludens (wave clear with Q), Lich Bane (for reasons stated above), Zhonyas (combos well with his ulti and all-in kit), Deathcap (because moar power), Void (because Magic Pen), Morellos (mana regen, lets you poke more with Q), Magic Pen Boots (because it's more magic pen), Athenes (against AP heavy team, also for mana regen and CDR), Liandrys (Q slow and passive proc lets you deal max burn damage with it), Abyssal (you stay on top of champs to get AAs in).
Nashors should NOT be built on him, because even if he would benefit from the CDR, AP and AS on it, his passive is pretty easy to proc as-is with a Q - E - AA combo. Maybe if he was in a split push comp and you went Nashors and Lich Bane in a 1-3-1 or 4-1 split push comp, that's the only time I could see it work.
On May 29 2015 14:36 Kinie wrote: The issue with the W is that, for the enemy side, you see the circle (and it's a big ass circle at that) about .5 seconds before it lands. So even if you know where it's going to land, unless you're on the edge of the circle it's going to hit you or you are gonna have to flash out of it.
Not to mention the line for how large the circle is going to be is pretty hard to see (due to the greenish aura it has, which is hard to see even for me and I'm not color blind.)
The issue with w is that it has 8 billion range, grants vision, and is a veigar sized stun without leveling it up. And if you miss you can still pass through it for a fuck off sized shield.
The range on W is insane, especially for only 1 point in it. I think I'd like to see the range scale with how many points you put in it, give some tension on his kit for how you skill him up (right now you go Q - E - R - W 100% of the time).
On May 29 2015 14:36 Kinie wrote: The issue with the W is that, for the enemy side, you see the circle (and it's a big ass circle at that) about .5 seconds before it lands. So even if you know where it's going to land, unless you're on the edge of the circle it's going to hit you or you are gonna have to flash out of it.
Not to mention the line for how large the circle is going to be is pretty hard to see (due to the greenish aura it has, which is hard to see even for me and I'm not color blind.)
The issue with w is that it has 8 billion range, grants vision, and is a veigar sized stun without leveling it up. And if you miss you can still pass through it for a fuck off sized shield.
It's almost the size of the Baron/Dragon pits, which is fantastic considering the enemy team won't necessarily have vision of you when you use it and won't see it coming until 0.5 seconds (waaaaaaay too late). You can basically chase them out of the pit just by walking towards them because they have to assume it's coming.
On May 30 2015 03:12 Kinie wrote: The reason why Lich Bane is strong on Ekko is similar to the reason why it's so good on Fizz: you can proc it multiple times on a mage that benefits from AAing (Fizz's W passive + active, Ekko's passive and W passive) and have a kit that benefits from the stats Lich Bane gives (move speed, more mana, some AP).
But you can't? Unless you sit around not casting your Q for 1.5 seconds you can't get more than 1 lichbane proc per E-Q combo.
Lichbane is really good on Fizz because his AP ratios are comparatively low. .3 on his Q and .25(.3 with offensive mastery) on his W and .75 on his E (if you use it for damage which you might not be doing). The .45 passive on W is a refreshing DoT so you only really get it once plus engagement time/3 seconds.
In order for Fizz's Q,W to do 1.7 AP damage he has to hit 3 auto attacks after the original Q. (actually will do about 2.1 due to the time it takes to auto but close enough, if you only do 2 auto's you don't make it).
But that is not why you pick up Lichbane on him. If you're able to auto attack safely(or use E for damage and auto attack safely) you don't really have to worry about damage; any item works. This is why people like Zhonya's a lot. No, the reason you get lichbane on Fizz is that it preserves his ability to Q in and then E out without sticking around to auto attack. When you do that you go from 1.05 total ratio to 1.55 total ratio*. Which is huge, its an effective 62.5% AP ratio multiplier!
But Ekko doesn't have that type of attack pattern available to him. Once he E's in, he gets his Q and passive basically guaranteed and then he is done except his W passive damage and the .05 AP/auto from offensive masteries.
*W activated before you Q. Q proc's on-hits. So .3 for the Q, .25 for the W on hit, .05 for the offensive mastery on hit, .45 for the W DoT = 1.05 + .5 for lichbane = 1.55
edit: I feel like Zhonya's will be the essential item on Ekko. Because the 2 second invulnerability on it allows you just a bit of leeway dive in, run your abilities on a squishy, then Zhonya, then ult yourself in position to heal/nuke.
Without the Zhonya you die before you can ult, or you have to ult away from the fight even if you get a W stun.
edit2: Mainly without the Zhonya you don't have a guaranteed way to get your ult off, you have to rely on the enemy team walking into your shadow.. Which, while they can't see it, they can still avoid the direction you came from in order to negate that potentiality.
They can see the shadow so long as they have vision of Ekko. The Zhonyas is good on him, but if you get good with aiming the W when you want to engage you won't need it for the active.
I had a Riven straight up phase through my Q (Maokai), point-blank, without receiving a knock-up, by pressing Q. Well that's a new one.
Edit: I mean a new one in this patch, I routinely interrupted dashes before that, but that Riven did it to me several times, where she'd Q on me, I'd press Q, it'd go through her, 'cept... literally through her, no knock-back.
Sometimes it blows my mind this is the biggest game with all the bugs and lack of fixes. This bug has been an issue since at least the beginning of the season. Porbably since patch 4.20, so over a half a year at this point. Well, better late than never. Hooray?
Turns out it's easier to try and score points by making fun of me than it is to lend an ear and realise I can't be wrong all the time (also if you consider the "Arcane Smash went through her so it's the skillshot the issue and not the cc" aspect then most of the things I've complained about recently actually get covered by that announcement).
Both Luden's nerfs at the same time would be pretty heavy-handed though. I think I could live with ratio reduction alone. Sure it wouldn't change much for Ziggs who'd still have it up every other skillshots he lobs at you but Ziggs doesn't need that to be obnoxious to play against. Ahri's another shitty case because the additional distance thanks to her Q's MS buff, and her ult's dashes being registered as distance, make her trigger Luden's passive pretty often.
I think it'll probably end up 15 per cast, but even if it doesn't, it'll still be the first big AP item 90% of mages get unless they 100% need Zhonya's.
Going down to 10% per spell cast is a bit much I think, but there's no doubt the item is strong. I guess it solidifies it as 'only get if you frequently cast spells', rather than just 'get for more damage'.
On May 30 2015 09:51 JazzVortical wrote: Alaric you should play Syndra. You would explode
Going down to 10% per spell cast is a bit much I think, but there's no doubt the item is strong. I guess it solidifies it as 'only get if you frequently cast spells', rather than just 'get for more damage'.
Unless they lower the base damage, it's use as a first item won't change. The wave control it gives if you can rush it is just insane.
Objectively it gets outperformed in single target damage really early on already, people buy it for the poke, and for the aoe shove. Both of which are still going to be really good. It's just going to go from a must buy item, to a "get this if you're snowballing early on a roamer" item.
Honestly, I just think it was strong on a few champions which were abusing it to do things that their kits aren't supposed to do. Azir for more poke than is healthy on a mage with that kind of sustained damage, Lulu for damage they don't want her to have, Kog's Tear +1 item power not being terrible, and some others i'm blanking on. Pretty sure all Riot wanted was to make a high-AP NLR item that didn't fundamentally change the way they had to balance champions the way DFG forced them to.
As it turns out, AP+Movespeed+Waveclear is an ideal first item timing for a lot of APs even if it feels awkward in a 6 item build.
It's okay to have an awkward 6 item build if you're ending the game at 4 items.
I seem to remember my opinion of it when it came out was that it wasn't going to be for everybody, but on the people it was good on it was going to be completely OP and it was going to get nerfed sooner or later. I would like to take this time to stroke my own ego.
So I tried out a game on Ekko where I went for a mana regen/CDR item first (in this case, Athenes). And while I didn't have mana problems once I got chalice, and the increased CDR on his Q let me poke more often, there was definitely a distinct lack of damage on his skills when I went on an all-in when compared to Ludens or Lich Bane. Granted, Athene's isn't meant for an all-in champ, nor does it have as much AP as Ludens or Lich Bane.
Morellos might be easier/better (cheaper than Athenes) on him, I'll have to try that out soon. It could also be that he might work better with CDR boots than Magic Pen. Boots, though you will miss out on having the mana regen from Morellos/Athenes.
On May 30 2015 14:43 Ketara wrote: As it turns out, AP+Movespeed+Waveclear is an ideal first item timing for a lot of APs even if it feels awkward in a 6 item build.
It's okay to have an awkward 6 item build if you're ending the game at 4 items.
I seem to remember my opinion of it when it came out was that it wasn't going to be for everybody, but on the people it was good on it was going to be completely OP and it was going to get nerfed sooner or later. I would like to take this time to stroke my own ego.
Its not awkward in a 6 item build; its awkward in a 4 item build. Its just that the power the poke/siege/waveclear can bring you gets you to the 4 item build faster than if you didn't get it, so might as well get it
On May 30 2015 14:43 Ketara wrote: As it turns out, AP+Movespeed+Waveclear is an ideal first item timing for a lot of APs even if it feels awkward in a 6 item build.
It's okay to have an awkward 6 item build if you're ending the game at 4 items.
I seem to remember my opinion of it when it came out was that it wasn't going to be for everybody, but on the people it was good on it was going to be completely OP and it was going to get nerfed sooner or later. I would like to take this time to stroke my own ego.
Its not awkward in a 6 item build; its awkward in a 4 item build. Its just that the power the poke/siege/waveclear can bring you gets you to the 4 item build faster than if you didn't get it, so might as well get it
why is it awkward? boots, ludens, zhonyas or mana item, void staff
Welp, after a shit ton of Jungle Zac games I've come to the conclusion that 1 change (however it would be fixed/implemented/whatever) would make Zac a very legit jungler. Make it so basically every other form of CC doesn't automatically cancel out Elastic Slingshot. I don't think I've noticed a form of CC yet that doesn't cancel it's damage/knockup. This is especially bad against many of the other top tier junglers at the moment like Gragas/Reksai/Sej.
What do you mean by "cancel"? The initial charge, or the spell itself? The charge is a channeled state which can be cancelled like any other by silences/stuns/suppressions/displacement/taunts/charms (I don't know how Amumu's Entangle interacts with channels). Since it moves him once cast it's possible roots interrupt it too (I know Vi's Q is interrupted if you get rooted while charging, no idea about Varus' Q).
That's why champions like Thresh are must-ban for me whenever you plan to play something like Nautilus/Vi/Zac: it's way too easy for easy for him to screw over an important part of your kit without effort, and he makes it incredibly hard to get away too.
On May 30 2015 08:20 Alaric wrote: Turns out it's easier to try and score points by making fun of me than it is to lend an ear and realise I can't be wrong all the time (also if you consider the "Arcane Smash went through her so it's the skillshot the issue and not the cc" aspect then most of the things I've complained about recently actually get covered by that announcement).
Both Luden's nerfs at the same time would be pretty heavy-handed though. I think I could live with ratio reduction alone. Sure it wouldn't change much for Ziggs who'd still have it up every other skillshots he lobs at you but Ziggs doesn't need that to be obnoxious to play against. Ahri's another shitty case because the additional distance thanks to her Q's MS buff, and her ult's dashes being registered as distance, make her trigger Luden's passive pretty often.
guess you have never read a little story called "the boy who cried wolf"
Too bad there actually was a wolf the whole timle, then (I haven't checked 'cause I haven't played her but I'm pretty sure Vi is still bugged, and while it isn't a bug per se and you may not experience it if you only play the champ once in awhile, the issue with hitboxes for forward-hitting spells starting behind you on stuff such as Nautilus' Dredge Line is something that doesn't behave as expected).
I didn't really like Luden's but that's because I pretty much only play Viktor and Orianna as mages, Viktor's item timings are skewed by the augment and I'd rather have more AP as Orianna (plus I'm going to build Morello or Grail first anyway) for the RW combo but also the shield value. I took it from time to time on Viktor because it helped deal more damage with E (long-ish cooldown, and it's the only spell you use at range) in situations where it was too dangerous for me to get close. But the early %MS felt better for me than the damaging passive anyway.
On May 30 2015 14:43 Ketara wrote: As it turns out, AP+Movespeed+Waveclear is an ideal first item timing for a lot of APs even if it feels awkward in a 6 item build.
It's okay to have an awkward 6 item build if you're ending the game at 4 items.
I seem to remember my opinion of it when it came out was that it wasn't going to be for everybody, but on the people it was good on it was going to be completely OP and it was going to get nerfed sooner or later. I would like to take this time to stroke my own ego.
Its not awkward in a 6 item build; its awkward in a 4 item build. Its just that the power the poke/siege/waveclear can bring you gets you to the 4 item build faster than if you didn't get it, so might as well get it
why is it awkward? boots, ludens, zhonyas or mana item, void staff
Because once you have your second (or third depending) item Deathcap is enough for wave clear, but fights significantly better in near every situation. And Deathcap will be getting close to doing more damage on poke too. Many of the mages that this isn't strictly true on have significant utility AP scaling (shields/etc) which make the cap perform better. [There are a few where the Luden's is still super good, but few/far between]
A good example is Karma. W,RQ (no secondary hit) has an AP ratio of 1.8(assuming no auto attacks). Which means that Cap>Echo at 215 AP(Cap/Echo +95 AP from anywhere, which is about masteries/runes/dorans for just Cap). If you get both procs of the Q its 175. If you get both procs and two auto attacks off its 166. Champions who either have high ratios (Annie, Brand, Viktor) or small ratios they can consistently apply (Fizz, Zyra, Anivia, Azir, Karthus), or who rely heavily on high ratio all-ins/combos (Ahri, LeBlanc) will stack damage in such a way that Echo cannot keep up with cap in terms of damage at a 1 item timing, let alone two or three.
So its awkward because you get to 3-4 items and you no longer have enough of a wave clear advantage to not say "i would rather have this clearly superior item"
Its not awkward at 6 items because well, you already have Zhonya's, Cap, Void, Boots, another item which can be offensive/defensive/cdr/mana, might as well round out the last one with a 120 AP item that has a bonus damage proc on ability use (since not everyone can easily make use of Lichbane)
edit: There was a wolf the whole time in the boy who cried wolf story too alaric
But its unfair to say Alaric gets a lot of bugs. Ive had a lot of the things that happened to him happen to me. He just reports them here more
Historically I feel like that has been something of a hard role grouping to balance.
Other Assassin>Fighters are: Fizz Kha'Zix Nidalee Nocturne Rengar Talon Zed
I feel like aside from Nocturne and Talon, that's a pretty good list of the champions that have needed to be rebalanced over and over and over and over and over and over.
Nocturne I think would make more sense as Fighter>Assassin anyway.
Assassins need to be perfectly balanced, eirher they're OP or complete shit (exaggerating but yeah).
On one hand you need enough damage to be able to instantly eliminate a priority target on a reasonable amount of farm, but also a reasonable amount of survivability either through tank stats or slipperiness to get in and get out without getting blown up.
Most champs aren't as extreme because they only need moderate amounts of each to function or can be very heavily weighted toward one dimension or the other and have a clear weakness, but assassins need to be balanced in both dimensions and it's difficult to predict how modifying part of a kit, especially if it's part of the survivability, will impact viability as a whole.
Notably, riot has begun nerfing a lot of tanks with one shot/1 second kill potential on squishes, like hecarim and gragas
Interestingly, although riot tends to release champs much stronger than they need to be then need them later the list you made seems to include a lot that were egregiously op.
On May 30 2015 23:22 JimmiC wrote: It makes sense to release them strong. Firstly it increases the number of people who buy them, and secondly in theory people should be bad at them so a little over tune should help even that out. But mainly I think it's for more $$$$
i don't believe that they do this. yes ekko is a too strong but release bard was very underwhelming. additionally wukong, xerath, trundle, zac, vel'koz, poppy, quinn, galio, malz, aatrox all had pretty average or below average releases.
it's only a handful of characters that get released that are absurdly strong and usually that comes from the sheer quantity of things that are included in those characters kits that make them very nerf resistant. such as elise, jayce, lee sin, nidalee, thresh etc. i think ekko definitely fits in this category of having too much shit.
Luden's is mostly good as an early item or a last item. The first is where you're basically at/above Dcap's level in realistic situations for damage (above for 1 item, slightly below for 2) but can use situational burst/poke/waveclear, and last item is pretty obvious because 120 AP and bonus damage is pretty sweet when you have Dcap/Void/Zhonya's/other AP item. If you've gone Morello/Zhonya/Void, Dcap has outscaled Luden's for the gold cost.
I only played against a pretty bad one, and a more decent one (guy is Silver II, s4 Gold), so can't really talk by experience. The damage is of couse bonkers, but if they just spam Q trying to harass in lane it's fairly easy to dodge, at least the return part.
His E is annoying because it's hard to stick to him, and if you trade with him he can really easily run away with his passive. I was better than the guy and could easily force fights (playing Jax top), but I had to force his E somehow, then go back in once I had my cooldowns back up (as Jax I forced his E by jumping in, so as to keep my E available for next Q cd).
I assume as people get better (especially at hitting the W on prediction) it'll be really hard to kill him between the sliperiness, and the potential for him to turn a chase with his ult+W and how fast he melts "low" HP targets (which is set up by the ult burst).
On May 30 2015 23:22 JimmiC wrote: It makes sense to release them strong. Firstly it increases the number of people who buy them, and secondly in theory people should be bad at them so a little over tune should help even that out. But mainly I think it's for more $$$$
i don't believe that they do this. yes ekko is a too strong but release bard was very underwhelming. additionally wukong, xerath, trundle, zac, vel'koz, poppy, quinn, galio, malz, aatrox all had pretty average or below average releases.
it's only a handful of characters that get released that are absurdly strong and usually that comes from the sheer quantity of things that are included in those characters kits that make them very nerf resistant. such as elise, jayce, lee sin, nidalee, thresh etc. i think ekko definitely fits in this category of having too much shit.
Outliers definitely exist. Although I'd question some of those 'underwhleming upon release' champs you've mentioned. I think JimmiC is correct in what he's saying.
Edit: I think Ekko is ridiculously OP. It's funny they call him an Assassin with poke, 2 ranged slows, and a huge AOE stun. What a joke.
8 of the last 15 champions (Bard, Quinn, Vel'Koz, Gnar, Lucian, Azir, Yasuo, Lissandra) being buffed almost immediately after release (or mostly unchanged in Vel's case) is an outlier now. Ok.
First of all,thanks alot.Still struggling to see which runes and masteries he uses,if I look up evelyn matches I dont see the masteries or runes,or is there a way?
On May 31 2015 02:15 Gahlo wrote: The whole "new champions are OP" mantra is confirmation bias as fuck.
Not really. Even if only 1 of every 3 released champions was OP, that would be much higher than the average population of champions.
Balance level of older to newer champions expecting a similar distribution in power level is ridiculous. Older champions have had much more time to be tinkered with, or even completely redone, with some of them not being touched since they were balanced for a game state that is long gone by. If we look at the last 10 champions released, counting Ekko, the last of those is Jinx, who was released in October 2013.
First of all,thanks alot.Still struggling to see which runes and masteries he uses,if I look up evelyn matches I dont see the masteries or runes,or is there a way?
Find his Evelynn games, there is symbol of loupe, click and you'll be in heaven.
5 out of 15 required significant buffs/fixes after release. Lucian had numerous fixes and buffs, Quinn and Liss were ridiculously buffed one patch after. Bard got buffed in basically every way. Azir had a ton of buffs, though of debatable necessity.
If I were taking a shot in the dark, I'd say that a third of champs do not require significant buffs.
On May 31 2015 04:13 Caiada wrote: 5 out of 15 required significant buffs/fixes after release. Lucian had numerous fixes and buffs, Quinn and Liss were ridiculously buffed one patch after. Bard got buffed in basically every way. Azir had a ton of buffs, though of debatable necessity.
If I were taking a shot in the dark, I'd say that a third of champs do not require significant buffs.
It doesn't end there either ie Gnar and Yasuo who also had a ton of bug fixes and buffs too.
On May 31 2015 04:13 Caiada wrote: 5 out of 15 required significant buffs/fixes after release. Lucian had numerous fixes and buffs, Quinn and Liss were ridiculously buffed one patch after. Bard got buffed in basically every way. Azir had a ton of buffs, though of debatable necessity.
If I were taking a shot in the dark, I'd say that a third of champs do not require significant buffs.
It doesn't end there either ie Gnar and Yasuo who also had a ton of bug fixes and buffs too.
I thought Yasuo got a bunch but it was actually just the flow change on his ult and a bunch of minor bug fixes. The patch after, he was immediately nerfed, lol. Gnar got a bunch of small things the patch after and then got nerfed as well.
Ekko just has waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much shit. Mage/Tank level CC and assassin level mobility. That's not a good mix. I don't see how it's a sustainable design. Someone like Syndra who has CC and burst at least pays for it by being completely immobile. Not to mention, he has all these little added extras, like going untargetable, that just add unnecessary strength.
I think the thing I hate the most is the shield though. That's just crazy, especially at level one.
On May 31 2015 07:45 JazzVortical wrote: Ekko just has waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much shit. Mage/Tank level CC and assassin level mobility. That's not a good mix. I don't see how it's a sustainable design. Someone like Syndra who has CC and burst at least pays for it by being completely immobile. Not to mention, he has all these little added extras, like going untargetable, that just add unnecessary strength.
I think the thing I hate the most is the shield though. That's just crazy, especially at level one.
As I have stated earlier I think the shield is simply too big ATM. That said, he is basically forced to go full AP in my experience and his damage is way less than other assassins if he doesn't hit his ult. I would touch pretty much everything else in his kit before I reduced his damage.
Am i right in assuming that he is banned out so much because: - The yoyo applies stacks for his passive, allowing him to do crazy burst on one auto with lichbane, E and 3rd stack passive proc - The stun circle is hard to see when you first put it down
?
His mobility is rather underwhelming, hitting his ult and the stun thing is more about people getting caught off guard / not paying attention to new effects on their screens. Take the yoyo stacks away and he loses 1/3rd of his instant burst too and he'd be in dumpster tier.
On May 31 2015 09:23 snow2.0 wrote: Just tried the new champ in a bot game.
Am i right in assuming that he is banned out so much because: - The yoyo applies stacks for his passive, allowing him to do crazy burst on one auto with lichbane, E and 3rd stack passive proc - The stun circle is hard to see when you first put it down
?
His mobility is rather underwhelming, hitting his ult and the stun thing is more about people getting caught off guard / not paying attention to new effects on their screens. Take the yoyo stacks away and he loses 1/3rd of his instant burst too and he'd be in dumpster tier.
His particles are also a bit hard to see in general, at least on his base skin. The W slow/stun field's range is also insanely large for only 1 point in it. His ratios are probably a little overtuned and could see a slight nerf and he'd still be ok.
Someone said assassins are hard as fuck to balance because either they burst someone or they're useless. Well Ekko is made to kill someone over a longer period, which isn't a bad thing. It's annoying when people don't bother reading the numbers before winging opinions.
Ekko's basic attacks deal 5% (+ 1% per 55 AP) of target's missing health as bonus magic damage versus targets below 30% of their maximum health.
He doesn't 100-0 you but he makes up for it by killing you very fast once you drop low enough, since he easily reaches the point where he does 8+% of your total HP per auto, on top of his normal damage/spells/passive.
On May 31 2015 09:23 snow2.0 wrote: Just tried the new champ in a bot game.
Am i right in assuming that he is banned out so much because: - The yoyo applies stacks for his passive, allowing him to do crazy burst on one auto with lichbane, E and 3rd stack passive proc - The stun circle is hard to see when you first put it down
?
His mobility is rather underwhelming, hitting his ult and the stun thing is more about people getting caught off guard / not paying attention to new effects on their screens. Take the yoyo stacks away and he loses 1/3rd of his instant burst too and he'd be in dumpster tier.
His particles are also a bit hard to see in general, at least on his base skin. The W slow/stun field's range is also insanely large for only 1 point in it. His ratios are probably a little overtuned and could see a slight nerf and he'd still be ok.
I can see the stun circle be changed to scaling stun time with points and less total time at 5 points, 2.25 is brutal at one point... but really, it's telegraphed 3 seconds ahead and if they change the visuals to something that can actually be seen, people won't get caught off guard so much.
On May 31 2015 10:16 MagnusWolf wrote: the enemy team cant see the W circle until like <1 sec before it lands.
The animation on Ekko is very strongly indicating the direction where it is cast, thats what i meant. If you dodge to a side it should be reasonable to get out of the edge-zone of the circle if it's still on you when it appears.
On May 31 2015 10:16 MagnusWolf wrote: the enemy team cant see the W circle until like <1 sec before it lands.
The animation on Ekko is very strongly indicating the direction where it is cast, thats what i meant. If you dodge to a side it should be reasonable to get out of the edge-zone of the circle if it's still on you when it appears.
The animation is also easy to mask if you are moving around in lane, harassing with Q. I've gotten my lane opponent hit with it when I was in plain sight of them.
On May 31 2015 02:15 Gahlo wrote: The whole "new champions are OP" mantra is confirmation bias as fuck.
Not really. Even if only 1 of every 3 released champions was OP, that would be much higher than the average population of champions.
Balance level of older to newer champions expecting a similar distribution in power level is ridiculous. Older champions have had much more time to be tinkered with, or even completely redone, with some of them not being touched since they were balanced for a game state that is long gone by. If we look at the last 10 champions released, counting Ekko, the last of those is Jinx, who was released in October 2013.
No its not. Your first sentence is why people get frustrated when old champions aren't strong. Plus its a totally backwards design philosophy, because those champions are the reason LOL became popular. People want Ekko to fit into a meta defined by TF, Karthus, Anivia, Orianna, Veigar, Brand, etc NOT have those champions (their favorite champions) have to be fundamentally changed to fit into the Ekko meta.
Of course, its much too late by the time of Ekko, but there is a reason Leblanc was forced to be terrible for the first 3 years of league.
I'm looking to get back into this a little bit more, so I was wondering if anyone could give me a short list of desirable champion picks for all roles. My champion pool needs a bit of sprucing up.
Top: Rumble, Maokai, Gnar, Hecarim, Shyvana (the last 2 are if you want to run Smite/TP) Jungle: Rek'Sai, Sejuani, Gragas, Vi Mid: Basically whatever, just not Akali or Yasuo (Ekko is probably free elo right now) ADC: Kalista, Jinx, Sivir, Ezreal Support: Nautilus, Thresh, Janna, Braum, Annie
he's been legit since they increased his heal on w, but it happened right when cinderhulk came out so it went unnoticed, but he's strong esp if they don't go 2+ tanks.
On May 31 2015 15:19 Slusher wrote: he's been legit since they increased his heal on w, but it happened right when cinderhulk came out so it went unnoticed, but he's strong esp if they don't go 2+ tanks.
Which won't happen in the current meta until Cinderhulk gets nerfed into the ground, because Riot doesn't know what they want to do with it.
All they need to do is have the multiplicative health bonus on it be lower, like brought down to 20% at most. 25% just lets tanks get into unkillable status come late game.
it happens all the time, the guy was asking what he could play in his games not what people have seen on ogn lately, although we had a yasuo and a riven top just last week so that actually just isn't true in any context
On May 31 2015 17:39 Arwen02LoL wrote: Does anyone know if Ekko's shield is going to get nerfed or if they're planning to keep it the same?
In the AMA, they were asked how they would tune Ekko if he was too strong. From memory, they said his base movespeed and his ult ratio. Shield wasn't mentioned, but I think it's by far the most annoying thing.
Also, Meddler mentioned on the boards that MF is getting a visual update and there will be a small gameplay update attached to it. Timeframe wasn't mentioned though
On May 31 2015 17:39 Arwen02LoL wrote: Does anyone know if Ekko's shield is going to get nerfed or if they're planning to keep it the same?
Nothing out on PBE yet about him. Knowing Riot I think it's more likely they are going to make range on it scale with levels rather than having absurd range at level 1 before touching anything else tho.
Been having a lot of fun with him in toplane using the Voyboyesque tank-katarina build as a template. feels much better than the full AP mid imo, being a bit more beefy while still dealing significant damage thanks to the high mpen and ok base damage suits his kit really well. Some defensive stats make all his abilities a lot more flexible. If you get the slighest bit ahead in toplane Homeguards are just unfair with his ultimate and a smidge CDR, scrap constantly and just ult back to lane to keep the threat of a TP assist in botlane.
Guise, sorcs, void staff and abyssal are usually all the damage you need and hit spikes much faster than the expensive Needless's items path (much easier to avoid the awkward backs where you're short on having enough gold for a part). With the high amount of mpen Thornmail/Sunfire are crazy good.
Been trying out different rune setups and Hybrid reds and Scaling CDR blues feel by far the best in those slots, if you of course have a match up where you can afford skipping flat MR - which is most in toplane, another reason why I prefer him there.
First of all,thanks alot.Still struggling to see which runes and masteries he uses,if I look up evelyn matches I dont see the masteries or runes,or is there a way?
Find his Evelynn games, there is symbol of loupe, click and you'll be in heaven.
New ashe does not benefit from lucky crits with IE first.
getting zeal instead of finishing IE gives her a little -20% crit dmg (120 instead of 140) and -5 ad, but +20% atkspd and 5% movespeed for a carry with no mobility other than walking (and it's 200-something cheaper).
Early lifesteal instead of finishing PD or IE is a little weird for an AD without escapes, but maybe he didn't have money for anything on that buy?
IE's passive still has a big effect on Ashe's damage. Sure she doesn't get the benefit of lucky first crit and she needs to auto 3-4 times to get up to average damage (compared to other marksmen going IE first), but that's still around 37.5% dps increase (IE's crit% + passive alone do that compared to someone with 0% crit, it's a bit less for Ashe because of her additional 10% damage on crits). That's kinda non-negligible for 1375 gold.
IEs passive doesn't have a big effect for ashe until you have some other crit. It otherwise moves your crit damage from 1.3 (20% base) to 1.4 (20% x 1.5). Which is less than 10%. It's almost less than buying component AD/crit items instead of completing IE.
So BF/pick + PD will be similar or higher in damage due to the AS than say IE + zeal.
On June 01 2015 01:20 Goumindong wrote: IEs passive doesn't have a big effect for ashe until you have some other crit. It otherwise moves your crit damage from 1.3 (20% base) to 1.4 (20% x 1.5). Which is less than 10%. It's almost less than buying component AD/crit items instead of completing IE.
So BF/pick + PD will be similar or higher in damage due to the AS than say IE + zeal.
That's becaue you're judging only the IE passive, while if you look at DL's build (and the way finishing an item is approached in general, with people rarely sitting on a crit cloak) you have to take into account IE's passive+crit%. Considering the price point it's to be put up against a Zeal or something.
On June 01 2015 01:20 Goumindong wrote: IEs passive doesn't have a big effect for ashe until you have some other crit. It otherwise moves your crit damage from 1.3 (20% base) to 1.4 (20% x 1.5). Which is less than 10%. It's almost less than buying component AD/crit items instead of completing IE.
So BF/pick + PD will be similar or higher in damage due to the AS than say IE + zeal.
That's becaue you're judging only the IE passive, while if you look at DL's build (and the way finishing an item is approached in general, with people rarely sitting on a crit cloak) you have to take into account IE's passive+crit%. Considering the price point it's to be put up against a Zeal or something.
Uhh no. because the question is "why didn't he rush IE" and if he did that he wouldn't have other crit to be multiplied.
If you're concerns about your mid game item timings/power then zeal after BF/Pick is a lot better than finishing IE. Then do you finish IE or PD I am not sure.
On June 01 2015 01:20 Goumindong wrote: IEs passive doesn't have a big effect for ashe until you have some other crit. It otherwise moves your crit damage from 1.3 (20% base) to 1.4 (20% x 1.5). Which is less than 10%. It's almost less than buying component AD/crit items instead of completing IE.
So BF/pick + PD will be similar or higher in damage due to the AS than say IE + zeal.
That's becaue you're judging only the IE passive, while if you look at DL's build (and the way finishing an item is approached in general, with people rarely sitting on a crit cloak) you have to take into account IE's passive+crit%. Considering the price point it's to be put up against a Zeal or something.
Uhh no. because the question is "why didn't he rush IE" and if he did that he wouldn't have other crit to be multiplied.
If you're concerns about your mid game item timings/power then zeal after BF/Pick is a lot better than finishing IE. Then do you finish IE or PD I am not sure.
Yeah, I agree with you. But should be noted that this build was just a really good adaptation to how CLG planned the game out, the statistics he was getting at every moment allowed him to do more every single time, in a standard lane with a 2v2 match up until later on, I still think the IE rush is better, specially for long range ADs like Ashe that can constantly get some autos on the enemies, getting a huge crit can win you the lane.
On June 01 2015 01:20 Goumindong wrote: IEs passive doesn't have a big effect for ashe until you have some other crit. It otherwise moves your crit damage from 1.3 (20% base) to 1.4 (20% x 1.5). Which is less than 10%. It's almost less than buying component AD/crit items instead of completing IE.
So BF/pick + PD will be similar or higher in damage due to the AS than say IE + zeal.
That's becaue you're judging only the IE passive, while if you look at DL's build (and the way finishing an item is approached in general, with people rarely sitting on a crit cloak) you have to take into account IE's passive+crit%. Considering the price point it's to be put up against a Zeal or something.
Uhh no. because the question is "why didn't he rush IE" and if he did that he wouldn't have other crit to be multiplied.
If you're concerns about your mid game item timings/power then zeal after BF/Pick is a lot better than finishing IE. Then do you finish IE or PD I am not sure.
Yeah, I agree with you. But should be noted that this build was just a really good adaptation to how CLG planned the game out, the statistics he was getting at every moment allowed him to do more every single time, in a standard lane with a 2v2 match up until later on, I still think the IE rush is better, specially for long range ADs like Ashe that can constantly get some autos on the enemies, getting a huge crit can win you the lane.
But that is the thing. Ashe can't get that huge crit to win the lane anymore. Its also why shiv is bad on her now (you can't every get a 200/250 damage proc until you've got PD/Shiv/IE which basically requires 6 items.
So if you can't get that big crit anymore, no burst or luck opportunity, you have to hard maximize dps(and try to account for how the extra attack speed/move speed effects your ability to get damage off safely)
Zeal is better at the 1100 gold point, but for 1375 gold finishing IE is straight-up better. It's a 37.5% damage increase on average, per auto, if you have 0% crit before completing IE (you ignored that part, it's less if you already have crit). Zeal is probably something like ~25% (20% AS a bit reduced since you already have AS from runes/masteries/levels, then 10% increase due to the crit%).
Sure on 1-2 autos where you don't crit then Zeal is stronger because more AS, but on average finishing IE's better if you have the 275 gold required. Since none of these buys give you AD the question of "how much damage comes from your autos compared to skills/other steroids (like Corki's)" is irrelevant too.
the way dps works i think it's pretty much never wrong efficiency-wise to get some attack speed once you have a BF sword + pickaxe, not sure going all the way and finishing PD before IE is a good idea though.
when i was looking at builds on op.gg there was a korean diamond graves main that almost always bought an AS dagger before finishing IE and then finishing bezerker greaves after IE and it seemed to make a lot of sense to me.
On June 01 2015 02:31 Alaric wrote: Zeal is better at the 1100 gold point, but for 1375 gold finishing IE is straight-up better. It's a 37.5% damage increase on average, per auto, if you have 0% crit before completing IE (you ignored that part, it's less if you already have crit). Zeal is probably something like ~25% (20% AS a bit reduced since you already have AS from runes/masteries/levels, then 10% increase due to the crit%).
Sure on 1-2 autos where you don't crit then Zeal is stronger because more AS, but on average finishing IE's better if you have the 275 gold required. Since none of these buys give you AD the question of "how much damage comes from your autos compared to skills/other steroids (like Corki's)" is irrelevant too.
1) No its fucking not. It was a 37.5% increase per auto BEFORE the 5% crit nerf on it. Now its a 30% increase per auto
2) No its still fucking not. Ashe goes from 1.1 to 1.4 buying it. Which is 27.2%
3) No its goddamn not. Zeal gives 20% AS. Say you're level 10 and have 15 AS in runes, 5% in masteries, and 15% stacking. The 20% AS is a 13.7% effective DPS increase before you start stacking your stacking attack and 12.4% DPS increase after (Plus you stack it faster!). Combined with the 15% Crit this is a 29.2% to 27.7% DPS increase [New numbers for 10% Crit: 24%/ 22.6%)
4) Add in the 3% more AD that IE has and [ed: IE has only a 5% DPS increase over Zeal but loses the intangibles like faster Q stacking, Faster Crit/AS stacking, move speed, etc. If the extra AS helps you get one more attack, or stay in range for better kiting or anything super marginal then zeal outdamages IE].
edit: NOOOO, math error, zeal only has 10% crit D: Still probably better though, especially since zeal advances the crit/as stacking mastery DPS increase faster than IE
On June 01 2015 02:31 Alaric wrote: Zeal is better at the 1100 gold point, but for 1375 gold finishing IE is straight-up better. It's a 37.5% damage increase on average, per auto, if you have 0% crit before completing IE (you ignored that part, it's less if you already have crit). Zeal is probably something like ~25% (20% AS a bit reduced since you already have AS from runes/masteries/levels, then 10% increase due to the crit%).
Sure on 1-2 autos where you don't crit then Zeal is stronger because more AS, but on average finishing IE's better if you have the 275 gold required. Since none of these buys give you AD the question of "how much damage comes from your autos compared to skills/other steroids (like Corki's)" is irrelevant too.
IE is only 20% crit chance, not 25% anymore. So you're down to a 30% damage increase, for more gold than the zeal and without the MS.
Can we talk about Ekko stun for a second? It's like a Veigar cage but it also gives a shield and level 1 is a 2.25 second stun. Sure, it has a 3 second cast time, but it only gives you half a second to get out of the way. "You know what we need on our new assassin? Incredibly strong siege tools."
So 10 AD, 10% crit and the crit passive, or 30% AS and 200 gold.
On June 01 2015 02:49 Sonnington wrote: Can we talk about Ekko stun for a second? It's like a Veigar cage but it also gives a shield and level 1 is a 2.25 second stun. Sure, it has a 3 second cast time, but it only gives you half a second to get out of the way. "You know what we need on our new assassin? Incredibly strong siege tools."
The problem with Ekko is not that he has too much shit. That's not inherently terrible on its own. The problem is all the numbers are too damn high.
On June 01 2015 02:49 Sonnington wrote: Can we talk about Ekko stun for a second? It's like a Veigar cage but it also gives a shield and level 1 is a 2.25 second stun. Sure, it has a 3 second cast time, but it only gives you half a second to get out of the way. "You know what we need on our new assassin? Incredibly strong siege tools."
"You know that skill we thought was broken and unbalancable? That one where we gutted a champion for? Lets give the new guy that with less detection and a free shield." - Riot
You can tell there is a huge disconnect between the live balance team and the content creation team. Its like when they said Eve / Rengar stealth mechanics were impossible then they released Khazix.
Or even before that, they were btiching about manaless champs (Riven, Lee, Renekton) with sustain being unbalancable, and then they released Rengar next champ.
On a different note; Would it be a good idea to run one crit rune on Ashe? Whats that damage formula look like? Good idea, bad idea?
On June 01 2015 02:49 Sonnington wrote: Can we talk about Ekko stun for a second? It's like a Veigar cage but it also gives a shield and level 1 is a 2.25 second stun. Sure, it has a 3 second cast time, but it only gives you half a second to get out of the way. "You know what we need on our new assassin? Incredibly strong siege tools."
"You know that skill we thought was broken and unbalancable? That one where we gutted a champion for? Lets give the new guy that with less detection and a free shield." - Riot
You can tell there is a huge disconnect between the live balance team and the content creation team. Its like when they said Eve / Rengar stealth mechanics were impossible then they released Khazix.
Or even before that, they were btiching about manaless champs (Riven, Lee, Renekton) with sustain being unbalancable, and then they released Rengar next champ.
On a different note; Would it be a good idea to run one crit rune on Ashe? Whats that damage formula look like? Good idea, bad idea?
Consensus on crit runes was that they were ever so slightly better late game but hurt your early game and made last hitting unnecessarily more difficult. A few might be marginally better though?
On June 01 2015 02:49 Sonnington wrote: Can we talk about Ekko stun for a second? It's like a Veigar cage but it also gives a shield and level 1 is a 2.25 second stun. Sure, it has a 3 second cast time, but it only gives you half a second to get out of the way. "You know what we need on our new assassin? Incredibly strong siege tools."
I'm not sure that I would compare Ekko's W to to Veigar's E in a siege situation. Veigar E is strong because it provides persistent stun threat to zone the enemy off their tower, letting you dps it down. Sure Ekko W has a comparable AoE, but once he proccs the stun, the zoning threat is gone.
Also its worth noting that the stun and the shield can't be 'stacked' against the same target, because the shield duration is shorter than the stun duration. This is less relevant if he is tanking tower (or there are enemies left unstunned who can still hit him).
On June 01 2015 02:54 Caiada wrote: So 10 AD, 10% crit and the crit passive, or 30% AS and 200 gold.
Trying to come up with the set of items that does this but IE goes from 75 to 80 AD, and Zeal has 20% AS so i can't figure it out.
IE + Zeal = 4950 gold PD+BF+Pick = 5175
IE+ Zeal = 80 AD, 45% crit(total after passive), 20% AS + 225 gold PD = 75 AD, 30% crit, 50% AS
DPS @ level 13 (note i am ignoring base AS because its the same for everyone. We will never hit 2.5 attack speed even with 2 PD's and max Q so don't have to worry about it. Actual DPS numbers will be LOWER than this)
IE : 180 x 1.55 x (base AS) x 1.765 to 1.915 = 492.44 / 534.36
PD: 175 x 1.4 x 2.065 to 2.215 = 505.2 / 542.7
DPS @ 13 with Q active
IE : 180 x 1.55 x (base AS) x 1.35 x 2.365 to 2.515 = 890.77 / 947
PD : 175 x 1.4 x (base AS) x 1.35 x 2.665 to 2.815 = 881 / 931
So it looks like PD is slightly worse with Q(because we expect fully stacked crit/AS mastery when you activate Q) but good deal better (because it stacks the bonus DPS from the Crit/AS mastery faster) without/before Q.
I can definitely see going for PD before IE and finishing IE second now that I've run the numbers
edit: Forgot a doran's blade in there and that will skew the above numbers slightly in favor of IE. So PD is actually better than that appears and gets better as you add any ancillary AD or On-hit from other sources (Janna Shield, Vamp Scepters, Doran's blades, Lulu shield) though AD cannot move the numbers very much (since its only nicking at a 3% raw AD advantage to like 2%)
On June 01 2015 02:58 iCanada wrote: On a different note; Would it be a good idea to run one crit rune on Ashe? Whats that damage formula look like? Good idea, bad idea?
No. It is never a good idea to run one crit rune. As of current, you have to have IE before it makes sense to use any kind of crit runes and the advantage you get at peak is like 3% DPS. But you lose like 5% DPS at levels 1-6 plus loads of last hitting power(I.E. not crit damage)plus loads of damage early on your W(which you need to be able to fight in lane) before you have IE. Things are pretty even when you get BF (iirc about 2% or so advantage for damage runes) but still not worth it until you get the crit damage multiplier.
It also doesn't ever make sense to use crit damage runes since crit chance dominates until IE+PD
The reason behind the 'one crit rune' thing was always that you got access to the ability to crit for a very marginal decrease in damage. Most of the time it wouldn't matter but on that one in a hundred time you'd crit the enemy AD in a level 2 fight and instantly win the lane. At least. that's what I got from it.
Seeing as Ashe doesn't do that, running one crit rune on her probably doesn't make sense. I don't know how the math works out though.
Since we were talking about ashe and the changes earlier and it looks like champion.gg has the new numbers up. The change dropped her win rate slightly but not significantly. Her play rate quadrupled. Her damage dropped from 4th to 10th however. And since her poke didn't change all that much(and her lategame DPS spiked spikes nearly 1.7 times higher) it looks like the old passive was being pretty impactful.
On June 01 2015 10:07 Goumindong wrote: Since we were talking about ashe and the changes earlier and it looks like champion.gg has the new numbers up. The change dropped her win rate slightly but not significantly. Her play rate quadrupled. Her damage dropped from 4th to 10th however. And since her poke didn't change all that much(and her lategame DPS spiked spikes nearly 1.7 times higher) it looks like the old passive was being pretty impactful.
Or all the new players are ass with a no mobility ADC and spend more time running than they should.
On June 01 2015 10:07 Goumindong wrote: Since we were talking about ashe and the changes earlier and it looks like champion.gg has the new numbers up. The change dropped her win rate slightly but not significantly. Her play rate quadrupled. Her damage dropped from 4th to 10th however. And since her poke didn't change all that much(and her lategame DPS spiked spikes nearly 1.7 times higher) it looks like the old passive was being pretty impactful.
Or all the new players are ass with a no mobility ADC and spend more time running than they should.
When has that excuse ever really been true in League?
I definitely think the old ashe was better. having to hit the same target over and over to get your max dps doesnt work on her very well. the burst damage from the 100% crit helped a lot in lane because you had even more all in potential than she does now. on an immobile adc like her, having to hit the same target just isnt that great.
On June 01 2015 10:15 MagnusWolf wrote: its because they reamed her base AS
They didn't. Her base AS is the same as it was. She lost .66 AS/Level (11.22 AS% at level 18) but because she now procs the "5% AS per crit" on each and every auto attack against a slowed target her total AS (pre Q active) is generally higher than it was at every level.
On June 01 2015 10:07 Goumindong wrote: Since we were talking about ashe and the changes earlier and it looks like champion.gg has the new numbers up. The change dropped her win rate slightly but not significantly. Her play rate quadrupled. Her damage dropped from 4th to 10th however. And since her poke didn't change all that much(and her lategame DPS spiked spikes nearly 1.7 times higher) it looks like the old passive was being pretty impactful.
Or all the new players are ass with a no mobility ADC and spend more time running than they should.
When has that excuse ever really been true in League?
On June 01 2015 10:40 Caiada wrote: Ashe was ever so slightly better in lane before but she destroys in teamfights. She's much better.
nah i dont think so. there's so many times where i'd have a really slim margin to hit a squishy target and then i hit them once or twice and since you cant get the B1G KR1T you end up doing like 200 damage.
On June 01 2015 10:07 Goumindong wrote: Since we were talking about ashe and the changes earlier and it looks like champion.gg has the new numbers up. The change dropped her win rate slightly but not significantly. Her play rate quadrupled. Her damage dropped from 4th to 10th however. And since her poke didn't change all that much(and her lategame DPS spiked spikes nearly 1.7 times higher) it looks like the old passive was being pretty impactful.
Or all the new players are ass with a no mobility ADC and spend more time running than they should.
When has that excuse ever really been true in League?
Literally almost all the time.
Every time people cite that sort of thing "happening" they ignore a bug fix or balance change. Or they are pointing to pro play, which is disconnected from, and probably has never been more disconnected from, soloqueue.
You guys are also heavily discounting the Volley nerf. Obviously I don't have the numbers, but it's definitely hitting fewer people per teamfight shot than it was before. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's a full person less on average, which would effectively be a 1.0 AD ratio nerf on a 4 second cooldown.
On June 01 2015 07:36 sob3k wrote: lol that one game....28/6/7 with a pentakill and lost, that's rough mate.
i'm probably just bragging, but based on recent experience i feel like getting a pentakill really takes the sting out of a loss.
I actually think I'd be incredibly salty if it had happened but if it has I don't remember it. (losing a game I've gotten a penta in) I'm really hard on myself about game influence, my hardest losses are when I feel I 'failed to carry' more than just getting rekt. So I would see this as being really frustrating for me.
I've only gotten two pentas in my entire playtime with League. Once on SR proper, once in an Aram.
Ironically, both were on old Ryze (if memory serves, the SR one was right after his slight buff to Q range before the rework, the other penta was right before the rework went live).
I've gotten several quadras and triples... In fact I think most of said quadras and triples were on Riven, though I do know I got a quadra as jungle Vi once (burst down two people, KSed the other two, the 5th was back in base because they'd died before the fight started).
So I started jungling reksai and going with cinderhulk -> black cleaver -> randuins or mr item depending on enemy team, and man is she ridiculously strong.
On June 01 2015 11:58 OhTwoMise wrote: You guys are also heavily discounting the Volley nerf. Obviously I don't have the numbers, but it's definitely hitting fewer people per teamfight shot than it was before. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's a full person less on average, which would effectively be a 1.0 AD ratio nerf on a 4 second cooldown.
Well, it comes part and parcel with a CD buff for early levels aswell.
I had some internet problems about 3-4 months ago, and copped the AFK penalty for it. Fair enough, was 100% my fault.
One month later after probably 50 odd games I d/c for 10 minutes in a 40 min game, I'm straight back into the low priority wait 20 min before searching queue. Just me or is that a bit harsh?
No I think at this point a majority of people have come to the conclusion that Riot's way of battling AFKers is a tad overbearing. Obviously in your instance that's a bit harsher penalty than necessary perhaps, but Riot really is trying to combat AFKing in general which I think is a great problem to tackle. 5v4s are way less enjoyable than even 5v5 games that turn out to be stomps. Winning vs 4 is a hollow feeling and having the upper hand as 4 but having the game stall out and losing because they have one more person than you is lame. Put it this way, I'm sorry you're getting screwed by it, but I'm happy they're targeting people who are more likely to DC. When Riot's own servers fuck up and punish the player for it I take more offense to it.
On May 31 2015 11:47 Kaethis wrote: Gnar should've been left in the dumpster. Champ's everything Teemo ever aspired to be toplane except he's also god-tier in teamfights.
Ugh.
yeh broken watch noticed that as well watching one of the go4lols He's oppressive to most melees in lane and still a good teamfighter its pretty stupid.
On May 31 2015 11:47 Kaethis wrote: Gnar should've been left in the dumpster. Champ's everything Teemo ever aspired to be toplane except he's also god-tier in teamfights.
Ugh.
yeh broken watch noticed that as well watching one of the go4lols He's oppressive to most melees in lane and still a good teamfighter its pretty stupid.
Do you find that soloq toplaners have good control over gnar's rage bar for teleporting into teamfights? Just wondering if high elo players run into that problem cause i see it occasionally even in pro matches where a gnar would tp in with like 0 rage.
most gnars dont bothe split pushing in solo q its usually a disaster its why zed has such a shit winrate everyone wants to be bjergsen and neither them nor the split pushing team have good enough coordination to pull it off properly
so with all the buffs riot is giving to shen im expecting him to be pick/ban soon, i hope im wrong cuz time when shen was in every game was period of most boring tournament games in league history for me
On June 02 2015 01:15 kongoline wrote: so with all the buffs riot is giving to shen im expecting him to be pick/ban soon, i hope im wrong cuz time when shen was in every game was period of most boring tournament games in league history for me
The Shen buffs as is are just meant to help him get brought up-to-date with some of the other top laners that are viable right now. It still doesn't solve some of his other, more inherent issues (poor wave clear, item dependent, basically relegated to split push status in every game).
Will these buffs let him see competitive play again? Probably, especially with how strong TP is right now in the top lane, Shen just lets you run a 4-1 split push comp very easily and he can still be there for team fights because of his ult. The nerf/changes to Sunfire Cape certainly don't help him out (basically required on him to let him split push/clear waves).
I mean, in theory you could run him top lane in a Juggermaw-like composition with Lulu mid, Nunu jungle and Janna support and just have the little voidling puppy run around doing his taunt/charge noise thing while Shen split pushes, and the moment the enemy team tries to kill him, boom, he's got like a 1500 health shield AND is larger AND is blood boiled and oh look your entire team is dead now and they're now 5-man pushing down whatever lane they were in to destroy your base.
It's a solid 20+ seconds, though. Hell, I'm pretty sure it's even longer than the assist timers (which are stupidly long, evade the enemy team for 15+ seconds, find a tower, someone still get the credit, wat).
shen cant be strong in lane otherwise he can win lane for himself and other lanes at the same time, thats the reason he was nerfed before, i dont know what they are thinking throwing all the massive buffs i just hope im wrong and he will stay unpicked because i really hate that champion and influence he has on the game.
The penta on SR was weird; if memory serves me (and it probably doesn't) the scoreline was something like 10-25 and they were pushing into our base. I was the only one on our team not feeding kills (I think I was 5-3-4 with good CS) and the highest level (just hit 16 before the fight broke out).
Four of them dove tier 3 mid turret because it was low and they wanted to end on that push, as the 5th was a split pushing, fed Zed with a huge wave hitting tier 2 top. I ran in with the main tankline (a Pantheon I think) and blew up their ADC first with a full rotation. By the time the other 3 turned on me and ignoring the Panth I was already killing the support and turning my attention to the jungler (this was Kha'Zix during his damage reduction ult phase) and he'd already used his ult about 30s prior (he tried to kill me and failed). Our ADC was chunking down their tank (who killed the t3 at this point and was working on the inhib). I KSed that one for the quadra, and by this time my ult was back off CD. I rushed to top lane (where Zed had killed t2 and was working on t3) with about 50% HP remaining and he dove me with everything (ult + ignite + BotRK active) and I just ulted and blew my combo on him (he had no MR, so I was basically dealing true damage), got the penta and lived with ~50 HP after everything went down.
After the fight I had gotten like 3k gold from all the kills and shutdown gold, went from 2 items to 4 (RoA, Frozen Heart, Void Staff, Seraphs) and just pushed mid, killed them again when they respawned and won the game shortly thereafter (our ADC was Jinx, so we chewed through the turrets).
On June 02 2015 01:15 kongoline wrote: so with all the buffs riot is giving to shen im expecting him to be pick/ban soon, i hope im wrong cuz time when shen was in every game was period of most boring tournament games in league history for me
Can you elaborate? I'm not a Top Lane/Shen expert but the changes look underwhelming to me. They're buffs, but where is Shen now that some MR and a slightly faster Ki Strike will take him from ignored to pick/ban?
On June 02 2015 01:06 AsnSensation wrote: Damn son summer split finals in madison Square garden :D
I thought Riot had private servers they dragged around with them for tournaments (hence why they say tournament realm during most of their casts to indicate what patch they're on, and also is why they tend to lag behind in patches when compared to live servers) to stop lag and DDOSing shit from affecting them, after they had to cancel an event after the venue got DDOSed (I want to say it was an MLG or Dreamhack that this happened at, during season 2 or between s2 and s3?)
On June 02 2015 01:15 kongoline wrote: so with all the buffs riot is giving to shen im expecting him to be pick/ban soon, i hope im wrong cuz time when shen was in every game was period of most boring tournament games in league history for me
Can you elaborate? I'm not a Top Lane/Shen expert but the changes look underwhelming to me. They're buffs, but where is Shen now that some MR and a slightly faster Ki Strike will take him from ignored to pick/ban?
Edit: The thread appears to have passed me by.
recent buffs V5.8: Stand United.png Stand United New Effect: Now places Shen between his target and the closest visible enemy champion. V5.7: Stand United.png Stand United Cooldown reduced to 180/160/120 seconds from 200/180/160.
on PBE currently
Base Magic Resist increased to 32.1 from 30 Magic Resist Per Level increased to 1.25 from 0 Ki Strike (Passive) cooldown lowered to 9/8/7 at levels 1/7/13 from 9 at all levels. Shadow Dash (E) energy cost reduced to 100/95/90/85/80 from 100 at all ranks.
u can say what u want but u cant deny its a lot and i wouldn't be surprised if he becomes contested pick again
On June 01 2015 11:58 OhTwoMise wrote: You guys are also heavily discounting the Volley nerf. Obviously I don't have the numbers, but it's definitely hitting fewer people per teamfight shot than it was before. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's a full person less on average, which would effectively be a 1.0 AD ratio nerf on a 4 second cooldown.
Well, it comes part and parcel with a CD buff for early levels aswell.
That was meant to be in regard to Ashe's total damage per game dropping off significantly. Somehow that got lost in a re-write.
On June 02 2015 01:15 kongoline wrote: so with all the buffs riot is giving to shen im expecting him to be pick/ban soon, i hope im wrong cuz time when shen was in every game was period of most boring tournament games in league history for me
Can you elaborate? I'm not a Top Lane/Shen expert but the changes look underwhelming to me. They're buffs, but where is Shen now that some MR and a slightly faster Ki Strike will take him from ignored to pick/ban?
Edit: The thread appears to have passed me by.
He's complaining about more or less any and every champion, even the weak ones he wishes for them to stay there.
Shen's a got a better time surviving with the MR/level (only exception now I think are Maokai, Singed and Poppy?), and he gets slightly more harass in lane, assuming he can time his passive right—he's the only melee champion amongst those with such a passive (see Ziggs, Kennen, etc.) are others (J4, Nautilus... ) are on a per-target basis.
The only significant buff I'd say is the lower enegy cost on taunt, so you can use it twice in a fight, although that'd usually require you to max it second to really feel the impact. Shen's still really hard to have impact with ever since they nerfed his taunt's width, meaning you have to basically go through the center of an enemy's model with the center of yours to tag him, even at the end of the dash it's hard to get someone. One practical laning application is that if you try to trade with someone, slightly walk up to them then taunt backwards to disengage, you can't anymore. You more or less have to walk behind before your taunt can hit him, so your ability to disengage is severely hampered
Plus it doesn't change the fact that Shen has a low damage output until very late in the game, and doesn't bring enough utility outside of his ult and taunt to make up for barely being able to make the enemy squishies notice him.
On June 02 2015 03:13 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I hope the players are given LAN accounts again so they can scrim with double digit ping :>
Actually no I hope they don't get accounts and have to scrim with 120 ping and bitch about it publicly and incessantly.
It's the finals only and not the entire playoffs, right? In that case, depending upon the teams who make it to the finals, they may not fly out until Wednesday or Thursday and just do scrims Thursday through Saturday. They probably will run into ping issues and bitch about it on Twitter, but who knows if it'll actually affect anything Riot does.
It could also be that Riot gets the NA server upgrades in place by then.
On June 02 2015 02:17 kongoline wrote: shen cant be strong in lane otherwise he can win lane for himself and other lanes at the same time, thats the reason he was nerfed before, i dont know what they are thinking throwing all the massive buffs i just hope im wrong and he will stay unpicked because i really hate that champion and influence he has on the game.
Kongoline hating a champion!? GASP
I just recently got my first penta but unfortunately it was unofficial. Had to dive fountain for it too. I was Diana.
Do you guys smite your buffs immediately on first camp? I ask because I've noticed it's pretty damn easy to steal it if you have a ranged ability level 1. Sometimes when I feel cheeky, and if I'm in a lane that's not gonna be good for me anyway, I ward gromp/rocks and Q it. Really screws over the jungle. And if I get it then I can come to lane level 2. It's a bit cheesy and risky but I'm silver so yolo. Anyway, because of my own success I've started to smite it only at the end for safety. Obviously a lot of this can be stopped by collapsing (which rarely happens) or proper warding (even when it does I still get it sometimes).
Poll: Do you smite first camp immediately?
Yes, I can't live without the smite buff! (11)
92%
Better safe than sorry, I smite to finish the buff! (1)
8%
12 total votes
Your vote: Do you smite first camp immediately?
(Vote): Yes, I can't live without the smite buff! (Vote): Better safe than sorry, I smite to finish the buff!
Depends upon the buff for me; if I'm starting Gromp or Krugs then I do smite immediately for the buff from them. Otherwise I save it to burst finish off the mob I'm hitting.
I tend to smite to kill camps. Partly out of habit, partly because it gets you a longer leash on the first camp, and partly for the longer effective duration. I've noticed that smiting to kill Gromp lets you carry its buff to Raptors and the beginning of red buff, which is quite helpful (using it only against Gromp saves me at most an auto compared to havingg to auto the small Raptors).
RG Karma is really fun to play. I haven't quite lived the full dream of Talisman, R->E, RG just yet, but laning has been solid and I still feel quite useful later in the game.
I want to test out a high M.Pen, max CDR Karma build. Go something like Morellos, Athenes, Void, Liandrys, M.Pen Boots and have the last item be whatever (Rylei's, Glory, and Zhonyas are my initial thoughts). She has high base damage as-is, it's when the enemy team starts stacking MR that you see her damage drop off.
As for a support build, I do think Speedster Karma has potential (Talisman, RG, Mikaels, Liandrys/Void, Ruby Sightstone, Mobi Boots). Use the RG to run in and lock someone down with a W, use the R-E to shield everyone, and Talisman to engage/disengage with the R-E combo. You'd probably need to run CDR runes though.
On June 02 2015 03:09 NeoIllusions wrote: LCS matches are held on a tournament realm and if I really had to guess, they probably do bring servers on site for such events.
So the idea is to spam movement speed items and then let you team run super fast into a 4 vs 5 fight? considering you're essentially an ap carry building full tank with low base damage and cc
its like giving superman a super fast jet made of kryptonite
It just came upon me that since Thresh's stun is "spiced" with 2 to 3 pulls, even if you have Tenacity you can't technically reduce the cc duration because you'll get pulled while you were supposed not to be stunned anymore. I'm not sure if there's a point for me to go mercs when he's the main source of cc in the enemy team then...
On June 02 2015 04:12 Slayer91 wrote: So the idea is to spam movement speed items and then let you team run super fast into a 4 vs 5 fight? considering you're essentially an ap carry building full tank with low base damage and cc
its like giving superman a super fast jet made of kryptonite
No, the idea is to use the movespeed to engage when favorable and disengage when unfavorable. I also don't recommend using all of your CDs to run at their team and hoping for the best.
On June 02 2015 04:22 krndandaman wrote: righteous glory is a bit overkill.
new ardent censer is super good on karma right now. 30magic onhit +15%as to everyone on your team, especially at an earlier timing is huge. and with just talisman/R+E you essentially have a sivir ulti every 20 seconds or so.
Interesting, I'll definitely try Ardent Censer (it completely slipped my mind). Do you find the regen sufficient?
I tried karma support again and it still didn't feel that strong to me, people also tend not to take advantage of the speed boost in soloque. Organized would work better. Catching people with W is really really sketch because you are so squishy you can get blown up in an instant if your team isn't right behind you.
I love the Caitlyn buffs the change to headshot sounds pretty decent although it kinda depends how it works, if only the bonus damage portion of the auto ignores armor I think they coulda gone a little more ham with it (50% of total armor or 100% of bonus)
Don't think the headshot change does much tbh.Hard to say it doesn't help but most of the time you aren't able to auto from bushes so it doesn't really matter too much.Also after change pd>>>shiv cuz you REALLY want the headshot to crit if you want to maybe kill one of the tanks.
On June 02 2015 05:36 Seuss wrote: RIP AD Malphite.
I guess it's a buff in the end because Malph always gets a lot more armour. If clearly makes some match-ups (like Vlad, which is already borderline unwinnable unless you take ignite, flask and go ham spamming Q and autoing him 2-3 times when he's slowed starting at level 1) harder because Malph has to burn mana and a cooldown to deal AoE damage to the wave, even if he doesn't want to use E.
I'm pretty sure it's also a nerf to the splash after level 1 because he did (62 * 1.2 * 0.3) 22 splash damage without any bonus AD, compared to the 25 + 15% AP. Also since it's a % of his AD and not a flat value it went up per level, even without leveling up the skill.
As for the late game, without any bonus AD Malph did (119 * 1.4 * 0.62) 103 splash damage, +0.8 per bonus AD point. With the change it's 85, +0.15 per AP point. So Malph's damage output is a net nerf unless you build Abyssal (or go straight AP, but it kills AD Malph regardless), or you max W first or second.
In terms of armour, with some CDR you had almost 50% uptime on 40% bonus armour, now it's 100% uptime on 30% bonus armour. Dunno.
Shyvana is... a net buff, the way I read it?
Brand feels like a nerf. That means if somebody gets on top of him (say, a gank) he won't get his bounces off so fast so more time for him to die. And at long range... come on, if someone dashes away after your ult, unless he does it near the scuttle crab or some shit, you're already very unlikely to get your bounces off. So with even less initial speed it's worse. Why the fuck do they nerf Brand who's already one of the weakest mages kit-wise?
On June 02 2015 06:37 sob3k wrote: As someone who plays quite a bit of Brand, that change makes zero sense.
At times it seems Riot wants to blank out every bit of hope some people have on weaker champs. I see no reason to have a nerf on Brand. He hasn't been strong since season 2-3ish.
Dunno what kind of fucked up logic you are using. Who cares about the W splash? All it did was mess up your csing. They are giving malph 85 free AD on W and 3/4 of his armour buff up permanently. AD malph is still fine since wickd went like trinity anyway. (Well you don't get the crit strength, but its a ton of extra damage) Seems like a buff for tank malphite which was already quite good if they dont have a lot of ap. IIRC malph vs vlad is fine if you get chalice and haunting guise and mpen boots. I don't know what world everyone else lives in where vlad is weak early but I always get wrecked until level 9 or something.
I always thought the Malphite problem was his mana pool/costs, where he couldn't push the wave with E and couldn't harrass with Q without Riot somehow giving him a free tear + chalice to start the game.
That's because I go really really ham from level 1, and if he tries to auto me it's Q + 2-3 autos from me, and because of my shield (and me starting flask) he hurts more. But I usually end up oom when he would die from 2 more trades, hence the "if I had ignite I could try for the kill".
I find W+E makes most cs not that hard to get if he just tries to shove you.
On June 02 2015 06:53 cLutZ wrote: I always thought the Malphite problem was his mana pool/costs, where he couldn't push the wave with E and couldn't harrass with Q without Riot somehow giving him a free tear + chalice to start the game.
new utility tree might be good its a free chalice passive
On June 02 2015 06:54 Alaric wrote: That's because I go really really ham from level 1, and if he tries to auto me it's Q + 2-3 autos from me, and because of my shield (and me starting flask) he hurts more. But I usually end up oom when he would die from 2 more trades, hence the "if I had ignite I could try for the kill".
I find W+E makes most cs not that hard to get if he just tries to shove you.
if vlads startin boots and he's already in his own creep wave are you really gonna fight him with a 70 dmg q and barely stronger autos with all the minions on you? sounds pretty dodgey and whats your gank defense when you dont have ult till lvl 6?
Well, vs melees you kinda just wanna use your E on them + autos, since they cant auto back, so not much Q use there (mana inefficient). Versus ranged champs you often wont get to push the wave with your E so it's just the Q you're using there. Also, mana pots are legit buys.
On June 02 2015 06:53 cLutZ wrote: I always thought the Malphite problem was his mana pool/costs, where he couldn't push the wave with E and couldn't harrass with Q without Riot somehow giving him a free tear + chalice to start the game.
new utility tree might be good its a free chalice passive
On June 02 2015 06:54 Alaric wrote: That's because I go really really ham from level 1, and if he tries to auto me it's Q + 2-3 autos from me, and because of my shield (and me starting flask) he hurts more. But I usually end up oom when he would die from 2 more trades, hence the "if I had ignite I could try for the kill".
I find W+E makes most cs not that hard to get if he just tries to shove you.
if vlads startin boots and he's already in his own creep wave are you really gonna fight him with a 70 dmg q and barely stronger autos with all the minions on you? sounds pretty dodgey and whats your gank defense when you dont have ult till lvl 6?
I should have put a "?" at the end because it was kind of a question. Right now he seems like they need to look at Toplane Maokai and see how to make Malphite competitive with that champion when it comes to being a useful herbivore toplaner. Obviously his ult is better, so his pre-6 should be worse, but not as much as currently.
Damage on W being significant enough means he could level it first in lane, using it to trade quite nicely vs melee tops. Right now the biggest issue is Q is not worth it unless you're playing silly full AP Malph. Otherwise, it's a one-point wonder only used for the gap close because of how absurdly expensive it gets. E doesn't do enough damage and is mostly for the utility. If W's early damage is significant enough, he'll have a way easier top lane. Better jungle too.
He'll always be a passive lane v any ranged top, but that's mostly Gnar, which he'd be safe against.
On June 02 2015 07:50 wei2coolman wrote: Caitlyn changes could be pretty massive, that's a lot of free armorpen.
will this finally be a reason for caitlyn players to stand in a bush and autoattack?!? will caitlyn's design intents finally be realized?!? only time will tell!
On June 02 2015 07:50 wei2coolman wrote: Caitlyn changes could be pretty massive, that's a lot of free armorpen.
will this finally be a reason for caitlyn players to stand in a bush and autoattack?!? will caitlyn's design intents finally be realized?!? only time will tell!
Caitlyn + Rumble synergy in jungle will be through the roof.
also would like to input. Ekko is a bullshit champ, that ult is absurd, especially if you set it up with your W. Pretty much guaranteed to smash the living shit out of everything.
On June 02 2015 07:50 wei2coolman wrote: Caitlyn changes could be pretty massive, that's a lot of free armorpen.
will this finally be a reason for caitlyn players to stand in a bush and autoattack?!? will caitlyn's design intents finally be realized?!? only time will tell!
Caitlyn + Rumble synergy in jungle will be through the roof.
also would like to input. Ekko is a bullshit champ, that ult is absurd, especially if you set it up with your W. Pretty much guaranteed to smash the living shit out of everything.
not much to input he's listed as a utility assassin which to me says that either his design is going to be inferior to both normal assassins and normal utility mages OR that he's going to be too strong in both aspects and crush everything. it seems to be the second one.
i don't think assassins should have any sort of utility because it goes against what they are designed to do
On June 02 2015 07:50 wei2coolman wrote: Caitlyn changes could be pretty massive, that's a lot of free armorpen.
will this finally be a reason for caitlyn players to stand in a bush and autoattack?!? will caitlyn's design intents finally be realized?!? only time will tell!
Caitlyn + Rumble synergy in jungle will be through the roof.
also would like to input. Ekko is a bullshit champ, that ult is absurd, especially if you set it up with your W. Pretty much guaranteed to smash the living shit out of everything.
not much to input he's listed as a utility assassin which to me says that either his design is going to be inferior to both normal assassins and normal utility mages OR that he's going to be too strong in both aspects and crush everything. it seems to be the second one.
i don't think assassins should have any sort of utility because it goes against what they are designed to do
I just find it funny they wanted didn't want Ekko to 100-0 people, but that's exactly what he does. lol.
Constraining design to archetypes like that is boring and simplistic. Simply saying they shouldn't have utility is basically admitting they can't balance an assassin without them being able to 100-0. They should be able to balance that.
Utility needs to come with clear tradeoffs, however, and Ekko's numbers are too high, so there's not much of that.
On June 02 2015 08:39 Caiada wrote: Constraining design to archetypes like that is boring and simplistic. Simply saying they shouldn't have utility is basically admitting they can't balance an assassin without them being able to 100-0. They should be able to balance that.
Utility needs to come with clear tradeoffs, however, and Ekko's numbers are too high, so there's not much of that.
I thought the whole idea of an "assassin" is that they burst kill people?
If they have to beat on your for a while I thought that was a fighter or a bruiser....
On June 02 2015 08:39 Caiada wrote: Constraining design to archetypes like that is boring and simplistic. Simply saying they shouldn't have utility is basically admitting they can't balance an assassin without them being able to 100-0. They should be able to balance that.
Utility needs to come with clear tradeoffs, however, and Ekko's numbers are too high, so there's not much of that.
I thought the whole idea of an "assassin" is that they burst kill people?
If they have to beat on your for a while I thought that was a fighter or a bruiser....
There should be more ways to do that than 100-0ing them. Ekko with normal numbers would be more of a clean up crew assassin, turning fights with Ult/W, finishing low targets, etc. Ahri/Zed/Leb are kinda quintessential 100-0 types and there's not much more design space there, imo. Panth finishes low targets after hard-engaging but can't/shouldn't be able to 100-0 just because of his stun and the power of his E. Nidalee is probably the most directly comparable to Ekko? Or current Kassadin, perhaps. They won't 100-0 anyone except rare scenarios or being super fed but will still kill low targets. They've got personal utility in exchange for damage tradeoffs.
On June 02 2015 08:39 Caiada wrote: Constraining design to archetypes like that is boring and simplistic. Simply saying they shouldn't have utility is basically admitting they can't balance an assassin without them being able to 100-0. They should be able to balance that.
Utility needs to come with clear tradeoffs, however, and Ekko's numbers are too high, so there's not much of that.
I thought the whole idea of an "assassin" is that they burst kill people?
If they have to beat on your for a while I thought that was a fighter or a bruiser....
There should be more ways to do that than 100-0ing them. Ekko with normal numbers would be more of a clean up crew assassin, turning fights with Ult/W, finishing low targets, etc. Ahri/Zed/Leb are kinda quintessential 100-0 types and there's not much more design space there, imo. Panth finishes low targets after hard-engaging but can't/shouldn't be able to 100-0 just because of his stun and the power of his E. Nidalee is probably the most directly comparable to Ekko? Or current Kassadin, perhaps. They won't 100-0 anyone except rare scenarios or being super fed but will still kill low targets. They've got personal utility in exchange for damage tradeoffs.
how else are you going to assassinate someone without burst? you can't really. if you CC them for the rest of the team or gradually dps them you simply aren't an assassin. if you want something else you have to take out the things that make him an assassin and give him something else
If you're good at killing one single person fairly reliably, especially if he doesn't receive back-up, then you're likely an assassin. Of course marksmen are like that but they're good at killing everyone, they don't need to focus on one, and all of Riven's shit save for autos (till she builds Tiamat) is AoE.
But the idea is that the assassin removes someone from the fight, usually by killing him (or almost killing him), isn't durable, and relies on alternative means to get in, out, and stay alive. (Irelia is an assassin with decent base stats, not a bruiser, it's just she stops scaling after one item, pretty much, so people build her tanky after that, and because she can't burst you in 3 seconds she's got to be able to function while buying a bit of defense to survive the off lane.)
On June 02 2015 10:05 Ansibled wrote: I think they key thing about assassins is the speed in which you kill squishies.
Well, theoretically you could be a super-Poppy that just disabled yourself and a high-priority target that then engaged in a minigame wherein you kill them or die over several seconds, and it would serve the same purpose.
On June 02 2015 08:39 Caiada wrote: Constraining design to archetypes like that is boring and simplistic. Simply saying they shouldn't have utility is basically admitting they can't balance an assassin without them being able to 100-0. They should be able to balance that.
Utility needs to come with clear tradeoffs, however, and Ekko's numbers are too high, so there's not much of that.
I thought the whole idea of an "assassin" is that they burst kill people?
If they have to beat on your for a while I thought that was a fighter or a bruiser....
There should be more ways to do that than 100-0ing them. Ekko with normal numbers would be more of a clean up crew assassin, turning fights with Ult/W, finishing low targets, etc. Ahri/Zed/Leb are kinda quintessential 100-0 types and there's not much more design space there, imo. Panth finishes low targets after hard-engaging but can't/shouldn't be able to 100-0 just because of his stun and the power of his E. Nidalee is probably the most directly comparable to Ekko? Or current Kassadin, perhaps. They won't 100-0 anyone except rare scenarios or being super fed but will still kill low targets. They've got personal utility in exchange for damage tradeoffs.
how else are you going to assassinate someone without burst? you can't really. if you CC them for the rest of the team or gradually dps them you simply aren't an assassin. if you want something else you have to take out the things that make him an assassin and give him something else
It's not about burst or no. It's about the amount of burst, time its delivered in, setup and so on. So ideally for an assassin with higher utility, they'd have low burst, or would take a decent amount of time to do it comparatively (1 second for Leb compared to like 4+ for all of Ahri's damage, for example), or would require a lot of setup to get it all off.
Which is where Ekko's numbers being bonkers comes into play.
With the numbers they have now, it's basically a buff to his Q in both forms, a buff to his W, and an improved late-game on everything. But by small amounts, mostly. A lot of slightly reduced CDs and numbers increased only at Rank 6. The Q changes are the only particularly notable thing, especially because you'll level it first 100% of the time still.
It's just small damage buffs to max rank on his Q, W, and E, and nerfs to his damage when they aren't max rank. So he won't be as strong in the lane phase, still be able to poke/siege well in the mid game, and a SLIGHT damage increase in the late game so he doesn't fall off as hard.
Maybe Ekko should just have an X second cooldown between using spells. That would prevent him from being able to straight combo someone but preserve his ratios and damage over a more extended fight.
Kog good for poke, Xerath not really cuz too immobile, Varus not sure
I wouldn't peg Xerath's inferior poke simply due to mobility, there's a number of factors in play. Compared to Kog'maw his poke has less range and doesn't have consistent follow up. Moreover, Xerath doesn't have a large, persistent area slow for defense. That he has to slow himself down is just the last straw.
Varus has similar advantages over Xerath, with the added benefit that his Q scales hard (160% of AD when fully charged).
It'll be just as good as it is now for poke. 5% AP ratio is almost nothing and the charge nerf is irrelevant to how good it is for Kog. It's more of a sustained damage nerf.
On June 02 2015 23:40 AlterKot wrote: Isn't Luden's getting nerfed to oblivion (unless you're playing a champion with bad ap ratios who builds mpen/spellblade)?
That's the joke. Ketara was advocating it in the Lux thread and how he thought LS' judgement of it in his videos was wrong. LS played the "google myself and get into an argument with people" nonsense he always does and spouting credentials.
Fast forward to now and the item is ridiculous and built on almost everybody.
Well I know how it is now, I'm just wondering how good will it be next patch (and whether certain champions will become better/worse once it's out of the picture).
Ekko has the gnar/rumble problem, even when you're behind, one good ability rotation is a complete game changer. That, along with the fact that when he's ahead is fuarking scary as hell.
Is Magnus a massive lane bully able to destroy his lane and splitpush, duel a bunch of opponents, but also single-handedly win teamfights (or games) even while massively behind?
(I'm starting to feel how ridiculous Maokai is after adjusting my item builds, though, despite some match-ups like Rumble or Garen being chores.)
On June 03 2015 00:41 nafta wrote: Imo biggest problem is his passive.Why the fuck does he get an 80% slow+speedup AND 70% ratio on landing 3 abilities+attacks for 3 seconds wtf?
On June 03 2015 00:08 lefty wrote: So how OP is ekko? I haven't been playing but the consensus in the korean community make it sound like he is as bad as xin or leblanc way back.
Basically Fizz with an overall better kit and a way better ultimate but slightly worse mobility.
On June 03 2015 00:39 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: It's how Rumble and Gnar are supposed to work, no problem there.
You're not whining that Magnus is a problem, when he can do nothing for fourty minutes and then get game winning polarity.
Ekko on the other hand, lol.
Gnar is supposed to be behind? Since when?
It's not what wei2coolman meant, God damn. Even if you're behind with Gnar, you can change game with one proper R+W, that's it.
On June 03 2015 00:43 Alaric wrote: Is Magnus a massive lane bully able to destroy his lane and splitpush, duel a bunch of opponents, but also single-handedly win teamfights (or games) even while massively behind?
(I'm starting to feel how ridiculous Maokai is after adjusting my item builds, though, despite some match-ups like Rumble or Garen being chores.)
You actually can do it with Magnus, just gotta build dps and not force staff/refresher :>
On June 03 2015 02:48 Slusher wrote: Im actually coming around on ekko I think people keep imagining his ideal combo, which you can make it near impossible for him to set up.
He's super strong for sure but i have 1 foot off the op train at this point
Sorry for double
His combo isn't hard to set up though. The w has insane range, and the stun combo is easy to setup with other initiators.
On June 03 2015 02:45 Slusher wrote: Actually magnus was a lane bully when you could cast shockwave on cd with bottle crow, and he was fp/fb before that fot nerfed.
He wasn't a lane bully. He stalemated the lane just like literally every other hero in the game did.
He stopped being first pick status because he stopped being stable in 2 different lanes because rank 1 Skewer didn't have 1200 range anymore.
How would you nerf her though? If you nerf her early game then she doesn't get as strong as she gets in late game (which is already mediocre), and depending upon the build you go on her late game she needs like 5 seconds of uninterrupted AAing to get enough Rend stacks out to kill someone.
The only thing I can think of to nerf her is make the W passive's % health damage when her and the bind target hit the same person be 10 / 12.5 / 15 / 17.5 / 20% of target's max health (right now it's 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20%).
Ashe nerf is dumb, her Volley already does shit damage if you don't max it first, and most people end up maxing Q first nowadays because tons of damage.
Earlygame Rend nerf is the obvious way to go. The snowballs out of lane Kalista can create is similar to peak-Draven. And Lol is still an inherently snowball-based game. Plus, they are slowly nerfing the tanks in the meta, which are actually Kalista buffs.
On June 03 2015 04:22 cLutZ wrote: Earlygame Rend nerf is the obvious way to go. The snowballs out of lane Kalista can create is similar to peak-Draven. And Lol is still an inherently snowball-based game. Plus, they are slowly nerfing the tanks in the meta, which are actually Kalista buffs.
The "best" idea I have for nerfing Rend would be have the AD scaling on the additional damage per spears be 18 / 21 / 24 / 27 / 30% AD and having the damage on Rend itself scale from +50 to +60% AD. This would nerf her early game damage slightly on Rend but still have the same damage once she hits level 9 (around the time lane phase would end in a professional game).
On June 03 2015 04:32 wei2coolman wrote: Imo kalista is in a good spot right now, she has a pretty distinct power curve, a nice change for once.
I agree, the main reason why you see her being ban/first pick in pro games is because they have teamwork and better mechanics than most people in solo Q and can get more out of her kit than Random ADC X.
I really hope people don't actually level Q first on Ashe.
Anyway, the Q nerf against structures is a big deal. They both seem to be going the right direction.
For Kalista, early Rend should probably be nerfed, yeah. She just needs to be a little worse in lane, whatever they do, if anything. I would trim a small amount off rend and Q.
On June 03 2015 04:39 Caiada wrote: I really hope people don't actually level Q first on Ashe.
Anyway, the Q nerf against structures is a big deal. They both seem to be going the right direction.
For Kalista, early Rend should probably be nerfed, yeah. She just needs to be a little worse in lane, whatever they do, if anything. I would trim a small amount off rend and Q.
I level Q first on Ashe. Then again I'm pretty decent as CSing as ADC, so I don't have to worry about using Volley to last hit (I end up using it to slow the enemy ADC/support when jungler roams down for a gank). I've wanted to experiment with getting Q to 3 points then maxing Volley, but that might just be worse.
On June 03 2015 04:41 TheHumanSensation wrote: Wow, if the volley nerf (40 -> 20 at level 1) goes through Ashe has a pretty hilariously awful level 1 compared to how it was before.
20 damage, what a disastrous nerf, considering that Ashe/Janna is most popular lane in soloqueue since rework.
On June 03 2015 04:39 Caiada wrote: I really hope people don't actually level Q first on Ashe.
Anyway, the Q nerf against structures is a big deal. They both seem to be going the right direction.
For Kalista, early Rend should probably be nerfed, yeah. She just needs to be a little worse in lane, whatever they do, if anything. I would trim a small amount off rend and Q.
I level Q first on Ashe. Then again I'm pretty decent as CSing as ADC, so I don't have to worry about using Volley to last hit (I end up using it to slow the enemy ADC/support when jungler roams down for a gank). I've wanted to experiment with getting Q to 3 points then maxing Volley, but that might just be worse.
What?Volley isn't used to last hit wtf?
Saying kalista is fine is pretty lol.They need to either nerf her early game or make it so you cant ult your supp when he is ccd.
I'd hit her ability to ult a cc'd target since it invalidates a lot of catch/single-target lockdown plans, especially with the low cd, or the target's ability to hurl itself while Kalista is cc'd (which hits her overall safety too, but it may feel weird for the soulbound).
Ashe + Braum is hilarious too in its own way.
On June 03 2015 04:22 cLutZ wrote: Earlygame Rend nerf is the obvious way to go. The snowballs out of lane Kalista can create is similar to peak-Draven. And Lol is still an inherently snowball-based game. Plus, they are slowly nerfing the tanks in the meta, which are actually Kalista buffs.
Kalista actually does better versus tanks than other champions, because they often lack burst. That's exactly the point of the double lifesteal/hurricane Kalista: Rend becomes better when she takes longer to kill people, as she has more time to apply Rend stacks (to multiple people, including ones potentially our of her range due to how Hurricane's passive works), dealing more (AoE) damage.
Against assassins who won't build tanky she'd just 3-shot them with the standard build if she gets a crit or two anyway, thus making Rend less potent (it still deals damage, it just deals negligible damage compared to her autos). But these assassins also burst her if they get to her so her ability to heal a bunch doesn't mean as much since they can overcome it with their follow-up.
Kalista thrives against champions with low damage output/mobility because QSS, Cleanse, Crucible, etc. can counteract the cc they rely on on a much wider basis than the shields/heals/instant targeted or AoE cc needed to stop assassins.
Depends. It can be fine, assuming she loses power elsewhere to make up for it—and that's exactly what we need: more diversity in terms of strength and what you pick a champ for, if you want to see more diversity in picks too. For example I'd hit Kalista's HP rather than her armour or regen or whatever if I wanted to make her more easily punishable if you catch her, so that the lifesteal build isn't hurt from lower armour (and thus effective healing).
Having Ashe not be able to bulldoze structures is good too, especially if you want to promote Tristana as the tower kill (just kidding, Jinx's still the go-to pick for that).
On June 03 2015 05:21 Caiada wrote: I think Trist is like one E buff (fewer stacks to explode or more damage or slightly more cast range) from being good. I wish she was good v.v
The Rend on monsters thing is not honestly that big of a bonus. It'd just be removing something unique.
Tristana is in perfect spot, outside of her icon and splash ~_~ Kalista's rend on objectives is pretty much easiest thing to nerf, unless you're not removing ability to save bonded target from whatever happens to it or stacks move after piercing minions.
Otherwise she's going to be top-pick forever unless she loses %damage on W.
On June 03 2015 05:21 Caiada wrote: I think Trist is like one E buff (fewer stacks to explode or more damage or slightly more cast range) from being good. I wish she was good v.v
The Rend on monsters thing is not honestly that big of a bonus. It'd just be removing something unique.
Tristana is in perfect lomo spot, outside of her lomo icon and lomo splash ~_~ Kalista's lomo rend on lomo objectives is pretty much easiest lomo thing to lomo nerf, unless you're not lomo removing ability to save lomo bonded target from whatever lomo happens to it or stacks move after lomo piercing lomo minions.
Otherwise she's going to be top-lomo-pick forever unless she loses lomo %damage on lomo W.
The question is does Kalista need nerfs though? Is she disruptive to the balance of the game? I'd argue that she's in a good spot with a clear power curve (agreeing with wei, scary) and lategame she's definitely not as strong as the hypercarries who take over.
On June 03 2015 05:08 Alaric wrote: I'd hit her ability to ult a cc'd target since it invalidates a lot of catch/single-target lockdown plans, especially with the low cd, or the target's ability to hurl itself while Kalista is cc'd (which hits her overall safety too, but it may feel weird for the soulbound).
On June 03 2015 04:22 cLutZ wrote: Earlygame Rend nerf is the obvious way to go. The snowballs out of lane Kalista can create is similar to peak-Draven. And Lol is still an inherently snowball-based game. Plus, they are slowly nerfing the tanks in the meta, which are actually Kalista buffs.
Kalista actually does better versus tanks than other champions, because they often lack burst. That's exactly the point of the double lifesteal/hurricane Kalista: Rend becomes better when she takes longer to kill people, as she has more time to apply Rend stacks (to multiple people, including ones potentially our of her range due to how Hurricane's passive works), dealing more (AoE) damage.
Against assassins who won't build tanky she'd just 3-shot them with the standard build if she gets a crit or two anyway, thus making Rend less potent (it still deals damage, it just deals negligible damage compared to her autos). But these assassins also burst her if they get to her so her ability to heal a bunch doesn't mean as much since they can overcome it with their follow-up.
Kalista thrives against champions with low damage output/mobility because QSS, Cleanse, Crucible, etc. can counteract the cc they rely on on a much wider basis than the shields/heals/instant targeted or AoE cc needed to stop assassins.
This makes me think you don't watch League, because the Hurricane build is trash against tanks. Infinity Edge is core to tank killing for every ADC other than Vayne and Kog.
On June 03 2015 05:21 Caiada wrote: I think Trist is like one E buff (fewer stacks to explode or more damage or slightly more cast range) from being good. I wish she was good v.v
The Rend on monsters thing is not honestly that big of a bonus. It'd just be removing something unique.
Tristana is in perfect lomo spot, outside of her lomo icon and lomo splash ~_~ Kalista's lomo rend on lomo objectives is pretty much easiest lomo thing to lomo nerf, unless you're not lomo removing ability to save lomo bonded target from whatever lomo happens to it or stacks move after lomo piercing lomo minions.
Otherwise she's going to be top-lomo-pick forever unless she loses lomo %damage on lomo W.
The question is does Kalista need nerfs though? Is she disruptive to the balance of the game? I'd argue that she's in a good spot with a clear power curve (agreeing with wei, scary) and lategame she's definitely not as strong as the hypercarries who take over.
She seems to consuming a ban in nearly every game, and in games she doesn't severely limits the enemy ADC champion pool.
Also the objectives/rend thing is only problematic because she is such a good snowball champion, and it means her snowball basically cannot be slowed a bit with a dragon steal. Either she needs a more precipitous drop off in the mid-lategame (basically, you should assume she has 4 dragons at this point when balancing her), or make it harder to secure the earlygame snowball.
BT/BotRK/Hurricane/LW actually does a boatload of damage against everything but especially high HP tanks. You just take forever to get there and have to fight for ages. She thrives on prolonging fights, which is the easiest way for the hurricane build to do a lot.
the w is really slow man, I mean I'm tired of LB anyway so it's w/e but getting rid of the miss chain that then randomly attaches to you was a step in the I can deal with this direction
On June 03 2015 08:45 Kinie wrote: Does anyone else get a similar mood of, you want to play League, maybe even do some ranked games.
But then you look at the launcher for a moment, and just think about how toxic solo Q probably is right now, then just close the launcher?
I've had that happen to me more often this past week, and I don't even know why.
no but i think about how many bad teammates im gonna have then i play anyways and then get angry when an olaf top goes 2/15 and our viktor mid dies 1v1 to pre-6 kassadin in plat 3.
On June 03 2015 05:21 Caiada wrote: I think Trist is like one E buff (fewer stacks to explode or more damage or slightly more cast range) from being good. I wish she was good v.v
The Rend on monsters thing is not honestly that big of a bonus. It'd just be removing something unique.
Tristana is in perfect spot, outside of her icon and splash ~_~ Kalista's rend on objectives is pretty much easiest thing to nerf, unless you're not removing ability to save bonded target from whatever happens to it or stacks move after piercing minions.
Otherwise she's going to be top-pick forever unless she loses %damage on W.
I'd totally be okay if they removed %hp dmg from W, it's the most stupidly tacked damage ability. It's like giving ekko a fucking shield after an AoE stun field.... It's stupid, and completely out of place.
Who was saying Kha6 is strong again? I took your advice and am having super fun with Kha, Max Q, evolving Q >E > W (not sure what the preferred KHA build is but Q evolve first is hilarious for 1v1ing in da jungle).
Played one game last night with me Kha6 Jungle, Riven top and Ekko mid. Hilarious cancer comp, skirmishes WAYYY too strong.
Also I cannot wait to buy Ekko but by the time I saw enough IP he will probably be nerfed, sigh.
On June 03 2015 09:30 krndandaman wrote: e should definitely be prioritized over r
why's that? R evolve works really well in ganks and small scale skirmishes in my experience.
Because you can't skip resets until 16 and evolving Q first is pretty much only way to go if you wanna be relevant. R was only good when it gave 50% damage reduction as pre-16 evolution, W-E or KaKAO's E-Q was always superior.
just played in a game with both an Ekko and a Kat in it, what was banned I can't remember lol
I don't even evolve R after they took the damage reduction off of it, Jump range on E seems really important to me, I agree that while he isn't terrible late 'farming it out' isn't the ideal way to play him and E range really increases your chances of landing the slow, at that point damage isn't as important since you are still in the lane/gank phase idk I certainly can get behind Q, but R is balls
I've still been maxing and evolving W first, I guess that's the play style I learned back when it was good. I like the utility, but that's probably not the most optimal way to play k6 right now. I don't pick him much in ranked lately anyway because it seems like a bad idea in league of tanks. But I gotta tell ya I really want to be wrong about that.
On June 03 2015 10:33 Senorcuidado wrote: I've still been maxing and evolving W first, I guess that's the play style I learned back when it was good. I like the utility, but that's probably not the most optimal way to play k6 right now. I don't pick him much in ranked lately anyway because it seems like a bad idea in league of tanks. But I gotta tell ya I really want to be wrong about that.
I think that was the old midlane Khazix build? Probably still good for midlane so you can safely farm up. I think Q max and Q or E evolve better for jungle though.
On June 03 2015 10:33 Senorcuidado wrote: I've still been maxing and evolving W first, I guess that's the play style I learned back when it was good. I like the utility, but that's probably not the most optimal way to play k6 right now. I don't pick him much in ranked lately anyway because it seems like a bad idea in league of tanks. But I gotta tell ya I really want to be wrong about that.
I think that was the old midlane Khazix build? Probably still good for midlane so you can safely farm up. I think Q max and Q or E evolve better for jungle though.
there was a certain period of time where W evolve first for jungle was standard.
khazix went through a cycle of like Q evolve, R evolve, W evolve, Q evolve iirc
Ah yes, the Riot cycle of "He's doing too much damage, so we're scaling that back and giving him some utility." to "He's too tanky for an assassin, so we're removing that and giving him a bit more poke." to "He's poking too much, so we're taking that away and giving him some of the old Q damage back. Just wait till everything else gets nerfed so he can be good again."
I think the "general" evolve order on Kha6 now is Q or E first, then grabbing the other second, and getting whatever for the third one. You generally go E first if you expect to be turret diving for kills and want to goomba jump from person to person in team fights, while Q first is for true solo killing/ganking while the support/jungler/mid roams.
I'm a bit curious as to why we don't see Vel'Koz a bit more often in mid lane. I know his ratios are shit, but the true damage he deals with his passive means he cuts through tanks a bit easier than most pokey AP mages right now. Is it just because his damage is shit that we don't see him?
On June 03 2015 15:35 Kinie wrote: I think the "general" evolve order on Kha6 now is Q or E first, then grabbing the other second, and getting whatever for the third one. You generally go E first if you expect to be turret diving for kills and want to goomba jump from person to person in team fights, while Q first is for true solo killing/ganking while the support/jungler/mid roams.
I'm a bit curious as to why we don't see Vel'Koz a bit more often in mid lane. I know his ratios are shit, but the true damage he deals with his passive means he cuts through tanks a bit easier than most pokey AP mages right now. Is it just because his damage is shit that we don't see him?
My friend had a similar sentiment a couple days ago after tearing his way through plat with velkoz.
On June 03 2015 15:35 Kinie wrote: I think the "general" evolve order on Kha6 now is Q or E first, then grabbing the other second, and getting whatever for the third one. You generally go E first if you expect to be turret diving for kills and want to goomba jump from person to person in team fights, while Q first is for true solo killing/ganking while the support/jungler/mid roams.
I'm a bit curious as to why we don't see Vel'Koz a bit more often in mid lane. I know his ratios are shit, but the true damage he deals with his passive means he cuts through tanks a bit easier than most pokey AP mages right now. Is it just because his damage is shit that we don't see him?
My friend had a similar sentiment a couple days ago after tearing his way through plat with velkoz.
I think I've played maybe a dozen games as Vel'Koz (most of said games on the ARAM map, so take that for what you will) but I feel like his build path in SR should be Morellos/Athenes > Ludens > Void > Rabadons > Zhonyas with Magic Pen boots. Just try to get blue before any major objective and siege the ever living shit out of the enemy team while your front line just sits there and laughs at the enemy team.
I mean, his wave clear is pretty decent if you max W first. If you go Q first you just have to use it for harass and last hitting more than anything else. The E is pretty useless in lane, really only useful if you're trying to burst your laner down with a W-E-R combo.
On June 03 2015 15:35 Kinie wrote: I think the "general" evolve order on Kha6 now is Q or E first, then grabbing the other second, and getting whatever for the third one. You generally go E first if you expect to be turret diving for kills and want to goomba jump from person to person in team fights, while Q first is for true solo killing/ganking while the support/jungler/mid roams.
I'm a bit curious as to why we don't see Vel'Koz a bit more often in mid lane. I know his ratios are shit, but the true damage he deals with his passive means he cuts through tanks a bit easier than most pokey AP mages right now. Is it just because his damage is shit that we don't see him?
My friend had a similar sentiment a couple days ago after tearing his way through plat with velkoz.
I think I've played maybe a dozen games as Vel'Koz (most of said games on the ARAM map, so take that for what you will) but I feel like his build path in SR should be Morellos/Athenes > Ludens > Void > Rabadons > Zhonyas with Magic Pen boots. Just try to get blue before any major objective and siege the ever living shit out of the enemy team while your front line just sits there and laughs at the enemy team.
I mean, his wave clear is pretty decent if you max W first. If you go Q first you just have to use it for harass and last hitting more than anything else. The E is pretty useless in lane, really only useful if you're trying to burst your laner down with a W-E-R combo.
I prefer Liandry's in my Vel'Koz builds. Gotta get Max Pen I think. Luden's is great on him that's for sure, but pairing that with Zhonya's and Rabadon's is too much AP imo. Zhonya's is situational. Twin Shadows is actually good on him too. More CDR and a decent AP chunk.
I usually go something like mana item straight into haunting guise, while picking up sorcs quickly whenever I get the money. Pen is super good on him because the base on his full combo is disgusting. If I had to guess, I'd say very few mages touch his midgame damage.
I haven't played him since Luden's came out though, now that I think of it :l but if you're just gonna poke with him, you'd be better off being Ziggs or Kog or Xerath. Need to make use of the quick damage of full combo (hence max pen) or the followup potential in a teamfight. His ult is gamechanging, hence why he's actually slightly more popular as supp. I think I'd definitely get Luden's after the guise, then sell the guise late-late game for a Zhonya's or just finish it depending on situation. He makes shit use of the burn, tbh; you just want the pen midgame to fuck shit up. I think max CDR is a bit of a money sink given how much more damage on his combo and ult max pen/Luden's/Dcap would be. Can't stress enough how crucial his ult is.
There are a lot of hard counters to Velkoz in mid because even compared to Xerath he's low on defense. All you have to do is pick a Leblanc or Zed or Talon or whatever when you see Velkoz and wreck him.
Katarina and Akali beat the shit out of him too because their dashes jump them behind him so it completely dodges his ult.
That's my understanding, at least.
Velkoz is actually a really strong AP Support IMO, but nobody wants AP Supports atm.
Is that in his defense? Shaco isn't necessarily hard to 1v1 if you expect him to go in (as opposed to taken by surprise, or walking into a box) and know how to differentiate the real one from the clone, though.
Shaco w/o the jump on you is child's play, so Ekko's ult alone kinda makes sense that he'd win. You might as well say you saw a shaco get dueled by a Malph geared for a full ad team, his kit is really hard for Shaco to deal with.
On June 03 2015 15:35 Kinie wrote: I think the "general" evolve order on Kha6 now is Q or E first, then grabbing the other second, and getting whatever for the third one. You generally go E first if you expect to be turret diving for kills and want to goomba jump from person to person in team fights, while Q first is for true solo killing/ganking while the support/jungler/mid roams.
I'm a bit curious as to why we don't see Vel'Koz a bit more often in mid lane. I know his ratios are shit, but the true damage he deals with his passive means he cuts through tanks a bit easier than most pokey AP mages right now. Is it just because his damage is shit that we don't see him?
My friend had a similar sentiment a couple days ago after tearing his way through plat with velkoz.
I think I've played maybe a dozen games as Vel'Koz (most of said games on the ARAM map, so take that for what you will) but I feel like his build path in SR should be Morellos/Athenes > Ludens > Void > Rabadons > Zhonyas with Magic Pen boots. Just try to get blue before any major objective and siege the ever living shit out of the enemy team while your front line just sits there and laughs at the enemy team.
I mean, his wave clear is pretty decent if you max W first. If you go Q first you just have to use it for harass and last hitting more than anything else. The E is pretty useless in lane, really only useful if you're trying to burst your laner down with a W-E-R combo.
malz does % damage with his puddle, so he's got the tank killing down as much as you could ask for, but you don't see him either. I think as long as it's the adc's job to kill the tanks mids don't worry themselves too much them, especially when you're sacrificing mobility for something that isn't half screen poke.
Malz's pool isn't that big of an AoE and pretty unreliable because of all the mobility going around. It does destroy anyone who stands in it, sure(40% of max HP over the duration? Count me in!), but someone like Cassiopeia can do as much if not better, while having much better survivability, strong laning (and I'd argue higher kill potential, although Malz's better at putting you low to begin with) and having the ability to switch targets easily.
hi guys I just started playing LoL again after a pretty long break. Every time I log in to LoL my computer freezes, at least for a couple minutes. Sometimes it unfreezes after a minute or two, and sometimes it never does (well I guess I've never given it longer than 7-8 minutes before I restart my computer).
Does anybody else have this problem and/or a solution?
Also the first time I log in to LoL I get "connection failure" the first time and it completely exits out of LoL, and then it works the 2nd time (still with the freezing problem though). I don't know if that's connected or if anybody knows how to fix that as well.
The freezing thing has been plaguing me too, and I relate it to the bunch of videos on the landing page (the embedded stuff), as I've always had issues with my graphic drivers when I have several instances of video stuff running (for example VLC paused and minimised as I launch a youtube video).
Either it comes from youtube (apparently they only recently switched to the HTML5 viewer so it could be a cause since the freezes only started recently), or it's something with your graphical card, but I'm fairly certain the videos on the landing page are the cause either way.
The other issue (the double login thing) I don't suffer from but apparently a boatload of people on NA suffer from it.
On June 03 2015 23:37 Complete wrote: Also the first time I log in to LoL I get "connection failure" the first time and it completely exits out of LoL, and then it works the 2nd time (still with the freezing problem though). I don't know if that's connected or if anybody knows how to fix that as well.
Thanks.
I have that problem too. I don't know what causes it but it's super annoying.
On June 03 2015 22:35 Dandel Ion wrote: The shield is in his defense at least.
ayyyyyyyyyy
also support velkoz is really bloody strong in soloq when people don't just play double tank every game, if you can get sorc + haunting guise or something your ult just gibs people
Support Velkoz is absolutely bonkers in the damage department. The problem with him is you need to r eliably land your E in fights to warrant going him because he's so squishy he won't have time to deal damage if he's forced off the fight or just dead as shit. If you're not a support player and you get stuck with it I recommend adding support Vel to your champion pool. The only one who can rival his damage to champs is Zyra and nobody plays her anymore.
Velkoz support is great untill they pick Leona and you cry. Do agree that he's great fun to play and when I see him get played in non-shit matchups he often outdamages his ADC over medium-length games.
he outranges her by a lot. like yea Leona is punishing if you fuck up, but getting rid of Leona's pots and health has always been a good way to deal with her.
He does, but it's relatively easy for Leona to get you into a position where you make a single mistake and die, to say nothing of bad things that happen with ganks+flash.
So I have been trying to play the game a bit more and I seem to be completely unable to win. And it's... Silver II. Any pro tips?(ADC > Top > Support > Mid >>> Jungle)
Mhm. 11-24 now in Silver II. That's sub 33% winrate so I really feel like I'm missing something important.
On June 03 2015 23:37 Complete wrote: Also the first time I log in to LoL I get "connection failure" the first time and it completely exits out of LoL, and then it works the 2nd time (still with the freezing problem though). I don't know if that's connected or if anybody knows how to fix that as well.
Thanks.
I have that problem too. I don't know what causes it but it's super annoying.
Same, although the freezing for me is only ~5 seconds instead of the 7-8 minute thing. Having task manager open doesn't detect any huge spikes in activity before/after the freeze so it's not just a matter of processing power / ram / etc.
I don't get the freezing, just the "You inexplicably failed to connect after successfully authorizing. Have fun reopening the client, pressing the Launch button, and reentering your information all over again because."
On June 04 2015 03:02 Seuss wrote: I don't get the freezing, just the "You inexplicably failed to connect after successfully authorizing. Have fun reopening the client, pressing the Launch button, and reentering your information all over again because."
Yeah, I just checked the riot forums and saw that one. There's tons of threads about the issue and the response that's been given is that Riot is aware of the issue and working on it.
UPDATE:
The IP-whatever method works. It fixes the double-login thing, although I still get the 5-10 second freeze. Should I make another thread since this is probably useful information?
On June 04 2015 03:15 Seuss wrote: Supposedly disabling windows' iphelper service will stop the problem. I'll report back whether than works for me when I get off work.
On June 04 2015 00:32 Zdrastochye wrote: Support Velkoz is absolutely bonkers in the damage department. The problem with him is you need to r eliably land your E in fights to warrant going him because he's so squishy he won't have time to deal damage if he's forced off the fight or just dead as shit. If you're not a support player and you get stuck with it I recommend adding support Vel to your champion pool. The only one who can rival his damage to champs is Zyra and nobody plays her anymore.
I've been playing a bunch of support brand, feels strong, ludicrous damage.
Max R>Q>W>E, his Q only cost 50mana, so you spam it constantly for poke. His passive procs spellthief each tic, so each one you land does an absolutely silly chunk and you make bank. His stun is two seconds long on a 3.6s CD maxed and is actually pretty easy to hit in a chaotic fight when you are just the support peeling.
I go spelltheif and sightstone, then into cheap AP items, tear or morellos, magic pen, then whatever AP items are appropriate.
In a teamfight if you manage to press all your buttons and then instantly die you still do crushing amounts of damage. Lategame its pretty funny when they have a bard, and you have a second AP carry. You're basically impossible to shut down in a teamfight. Many many games where I'm top damage on team. He feels much more reliable than velkoz as silly as it seems since mid brand is so finicky, but as support his stun is easier to use as peel than velkoz E, and he blows his whole load in one second in a teamfight, so you don't have to worry about getting picked without getting to channel your ult. His passive also chunks tanks in poke fights. His ult also really really shines in a duo lane.
On June 04 2015 02:47 Shikyo wrote: So I have been trying to play the game a bit more and I seem to be completely unable to win. And it's... Silver II. Any pro tips?(ADC > Top > Support > Mid >>> Jungle)
Mhm. 11-24 now in Silver II. That's sub 33% winrate so I really feel like I'm missing something important.
As an ADC, lane phase is all that matters from my experience climbing. Just play extremely aggro. In my climb I usually ended up 100 cs and 3 kills up 4/5 games. Every time they go for a CS auto them, take bad trades if you have pots and they dont. Basically silver players just let you mercilessly beat their ass into submission.
This is from an ADC perspective. If you leave lane with less or equal amount of kills as their mid your chances of winning the game are slim.
I dunno, you still need to hit spells as Brand before you use your stun. So unless you just ult and hope it bounces right, you either have to cast E (lower range than Vel'Koz's cc) or hit your pillar and then you miss out on damage.
Brand's issue in the lategame, apart from not being able to burst stuff anymore in one rotation, is his range. When he peaks, unless he's against an assassin, he can usually survive long enough (even if cc'd) to at least get his stun off, if not his whole rotation then walk away. The fact that a bunch of skirmishes happen around the river/jungle entrances and in 2v2s or 3v3s also play into his hand.
Later he dies instantly as soon as he's into cc/gapcloser range, so using his E is incredibly risky, and his combo's animations are too long so if he tries to go in he'll die. You have to either flank, or wait for the initiation dust to settle and see if you can walk to a squishy (or follow-up on some AoE cc, yeah).
On June 04 2015 04:32 Alaric wrote: I dunno, you still need to hit spells as Brand before you use your stun. So unless you just ult and hope it bounces right, you either have to cast E (lower range than Vel'Koz's cc) or hit your pillar and then you miss out on damage.
Brand's issue in the lategame, apart from not being able to burst stuff anymore in one rotation, is his range. When he peaks, unless he's against an assassin, he can usually survive long enough (even if cc'd) to at least get his stun off, if not his whole rotation then walk away. The fact that a bunch of skirmishes happen around the river/jungle entrances and in 2v2s or 3v3s also play into his hand.
Later he dies instantly as soon as he's into cc/gapcloser range, so using his E is incredibly risky, and his combo's animations are too long so if he tries to go in he'll die. You have to either flank, or wait for the initiation dust to settle and see if you can walk to a squishy (or follow-up on some AoE cc, yeah).
You stand behind your AD/AP carry and peel for them, whoever comes to dive them you EQ. Its a linear skillshot so it works quite well for this as you don't have to worry about them dodging it with their gap closer like you do on velkoz. You wait for them to come to you. Your stun is also on a 4 second cd, so you have the luxury of being able to use it on a diving tank or whoever you can hit, and having another one up for a higher priority target no problem.
If they aren't coming you poke constantly with Q which has 1050 range (and W if you have the mana , its 900 range to the center of a 250 unit radius circle). In a fight its rarely hard to find an opportunity to ult if you position out of assassin range.
He can't really catch shit with his stun unless you're a god at hitting w, so your best bet is stopping dive or layering more CC, both of which he does fairly well. It's why he's so bad mid; he can't go aggressive at all without hard engage.
I hope they let you move it around or turn the champion icon off, I don't really like it. On the bright side about the new hud update, no rebinding F keys every game.
artistically I don't like the space created by the gap between the circular champion portrait and the rectangular skills and hp bar (and the weird little passive button), also the big gap between the hp bar and the skill buttons.
On June 04 2015 02:47 Shikyo wrote: So I have been trying to play the game a bit more and I seem to be completely unable to win. And it's... Silver II. Any pro tips?(ADC > Top > Support > Mid >>> Jungle)
Mhm. 11-24 now in Silver II. That's sub 33% winrate so I really feel like I'm missing something important.
Farm, learn to farm. Learn to always get side lane farm whenever possible. Every time you base, look at lane, go to the lane that's shoving into your base. Get farm.
Remember, you don't need to kite if you're 100 cs up on your opponent.
Omg Ahri is nuts. I just played my first game as her and while facing her was always annoying I had no idea how bonkers she was if you were actually competent at the game.
Also, I faced an ekko and have no idea why he's permabanned. He pops instantly under any form of CC, though he did manage to one shot me a couple times. Just seems like another highly mobile assassin to me.
Hexakill is boring on the account I don't have Xerath/Azir/Cho'Gath/Syndra/etc. on 'cause everyone picks that and then I remember why Brand made me so sad the last time Hexakill on TT was featured.
I caved in and picked Ashe, I wanted to play. Varus, AP Ezreal, AP Kog, AP Shaco, Fiddlesticks in the enemy team.
On June 04 2015 09:35 Nos- wrote: mark/dash makes aram even less fun
If you think it is bad now, imagine what it was like when the snowball was a 20s CD and did 320 true damage at level 18. It was meant to be used to let tanks engage easier in Aram, but when you have everyone including Malzahar running the damn thing, you know it's busted.
Now the only people I see run it are tanks and people who like free engages (Vi, Lissandra, Annie, Sona, Katarina, etc.)
Update: The IP-thing doesn't work... consistently? Restarted and tried it a few times and I only double log-inned twice out of 3 times, but it did also work once earlier. ???
In other news, is Malzahar w/ Rylais+Liandrys actually a good tankbuster or is it just overhype based on something that makes sense but doesn't work out mathmatically?
On June 04 2015 10:23 TheHumanSensation wrote: Update: The IP-thing doesn't work... consistently? Restarted and tried it a few times and I only double log-inned twice out of 3 times, but it did also work once earlier. ???
In other news, is Malzahar w/ Rylais+Liandrys actually a good tankbuster or is it just overhype based on something that makes sense but doesn't work out mathmatically?
Malz should not get Rylai's/Liandry's. The slow on Rylai's is nice but you should be going for RoA if you want HP (more HP/Mana which you will need in a longish fight) and then AP/Pen. Your ratios are really good and you need to make use of them. Liandry's isn't that item.
edit: malz is a better tankbuster with void than with Liandry's. The lack of % pen make his W do a lot less damage, which will be your primary damage against tanks.
On June 04 2015 10:47 Goumindong wrote: Malz should not get Rylai's/Liandry's. The slow on Rylai's is nice but you should be going for RoA if you want HP (more HP/Mana which you will need in a longish fight) and then AP/Pen. Your ratios are really good and you need to make use of them. Liandry's isn't that item.
edit: malz is a better tankbuster with void than with Liandry's. The lack of % pen make his W do a lot less damage, which will be your primary damage against tanks.
imo Ludens #1 Malz item, can almost always get 3 procs off a single target in a 1v1. First proc off 1st spell cast, 2nd proc after rotation of spells, 3rd proc as you walk away and space aids still on opponent.
On June 04 2015 10:47 Goumindong wrote: Malz should not get Rylai's/Liandry's. The slow on Rylai's is nice but you should be going for RoA if you want HP (more HP/Mana which you will need in a longish fight) and then AP/Pen. Your ratios are really good and you need to make use of them. Liandry's isn't that item.
edit: malz is a better tankbuster with void than with Liandry's. The lack of % pen make his W do a lot less damage, which will be your primary damage against tanks.
imo Ludens #1 Malz item, can almost always get 3 procs off a single target in a 1v1. First proc off 1st spell cast, 2nd proc after rotation of spells, 3rd proc as you walk away and space aids still on opponent.
Yes absolutely. I am dumb for forgetting that because it's great.
On June 04 2015 10:51 Ketara wrote: Here's my pro jungle tip:
Practice clearing in custom games for each jungler you play and you will get better.
This is literally the jungle equivalent of "go into custom games and practice csing."
practicing cs'ing is pretty much what everyone who isn't already ~diamond should be doing though.
I know, but it's like a guy that goes to the dentist and they tell him once again to start flossing. After a certain amount of time, the dude isn't going to start flossing.
On June 04 2015 13:24 krndandaman wrote: #1 tip I've gotten was just focus on dying less worked wonders for me. it's simple but good. I started to focus a lot more on good ward timing, timing flashes so I know when I can do shit and when they can all-in me, only picking fights I know for sure I can win, etc.
honestly i have no idea how people die so much. I average 4.3 deaths per game and I think that's a little high and should be around 3. then i see people averaging 7/8 deaths per game and it just blows my mind that these people are in the same league as me.
Was wondering how other ADC mains have been doing in solo queue lately. Ever since cinderhulk my winrate plummeted from around 80% to 40%. Feels like I have zero impact in every game that I fail to go 6 - 0 in lane. Is this just me being inconsistent?
On June 04 2015 13:57 RagequitBM wrote: Was wondering how other ADC mains have been doing in solo queue lately. Ever since cinderhulk my winrate plummeted from around 80% to 40%. Feels like I have zero impact in every game that I fail to go 6 - 0 in lane. Is this just me being inconsistent?
Don't be afraid to force BotRK on a non-ideal ADC. Your champions theoretical peak doesn't mean shit when it can't throw out enough damage.
On June 04 2015 13:24 krndandaman wrote: #1 tip I've gotten was just focus on dying less worked wonders for me. it's simple but good. I started to focus a lot more on good ward timing, timing flashes so I know when I can do shit and when they can all-in me, only picking fights I know for sure I can win, etc.
it's possible to be too careful though
of course, but it's good advice in the lower levels imo, because chances are you're erring on the side of playing too recklessly instead of playing too safe. the repercussions of playing too safe are also much smaller than playing too recklessly.
I find it to be the exact opposite especially on melee, so I think it's a case by case basis.
On June 04 2015 13:57 RagequitBM wrote: Was wondering how other ADC mains have been doing in solo queue lately. Ever since cinderhulk my winrate plummeted from around 80% to 40%. Feels like I have zero impact in every game that I fail to go 6 - 0 in lane. Is this just me being inconsistent?
adc sucks in solo queue unless you duo with a support and completely dominate your lane. tanks are way too good and when people dont peel for you it's just an awful meta for adc's.
On June 04 2015 16:41 Kaethis wrote: Also depends on your role. As a toplaner, dying is often half your job (the other being not feeding in lane).
I have heard this said a lot, but it is exceedingly rare that dying is your job. What krndandaman is saying is correct, focusing on dying less is one of the best things to focus on (regardless of role) to climb soloQ ranks.
On June 04 2015 18:34 Celial wrote: I wanna play a coin-based support so so badly... but are there other good champs besides Janna where it's optimal? Except Soraka. -.-
On most utility supports it's good to switch into Coin->Talisman once lane is over, you wont get that many procs off and Talisman is the best support item build out of your gold generator. Starting Coin leaves you incredible weak, and Soraka is honestly the only champion I can see it work on - on anyone else you're making it hard for your adc safely as the enemy simply will be stronger than you. When you can get away with a Coin start, it's because you're against a lane that's weak early, which you ironically want the offensive stats even moreso against.
It can sorta work on Bard if your adc is ok with you leaving him alone often (you need to rush into mobis and Medallion in this case), Frostfang is still super strong on him since a meep auto triggers 2 stacks which is pretty brutal early.
Soraka is honestly the only support I'd start Coin on, even after the buff. Maybe if you look up your opponents on op.gg or whatever and see both of them are not maining botlane you can do it, but then it'd be better to just fuck 'em up with the superior stats you get from Relic/Frostfang.
On June 04 2015 18:51 loSleb wrote: I would really like to be able to transfer IP from my main to my smurf.
I just wish you could start level 30 on different regions if you only got a level 30 account on another, I dont care about runes/champions on your main. Just pls let me skip the boring grind Rito, ruining games before you get unto Smurf Island is boring and winning/losing games solely on having more/higher smurfs is even worse.
On June 04 2015 16:41 Kaethis wrote: Also depends on your role. As a toplaner, dying is often half your job (the other being not feeding in lane).
I have heard this said a lot, but it is exceedingly rare that dying is your job. What krndandaman is saying is correct, focusing on dying less is one of the best things to focus on (regardless of role) to climb soloQ ranks.
All new players should have Mejai/Sword as suggested item so they'd learn early to play safe and take advantage of early leads. ^^
On June 04 2015 18:44 JimmiC wrote: Maybe u can't 1v5 but ADCs still carry a ton of games. saying anything else is pretty much qqing.
yeah but there's no denying that adc is the most team-reliant role. it's a lot easier to help your team and carry games by getting fed as mid/top/jungle than it is as adc. even if you're fed you still need your team to peel for you and shit
On June 04 2015 18:34 Celial wrote: I wanna play a coin-based support so so badly... but are there other good champs besides Janna where it's optimal? Except Soraka. -.-
I build it on Thresh, Naut, Ali and Leona, much to disdain of my ADC but satisfaction of myself.
On June 04 2015 18:34 Celial wrote: I wanna play a coin-based support so so badly... but are there other good champs besides Janna where it's optimal? Except Soraka. -.-
I build it on Thresh, Naut, Ali and Leona, much to disdain of my ADC but satisfaction of myself.
I can see people go coin instead of spellthief's, but coin instead of relic shield rarely makes sense to me.
Maybe with Garen, Olaf and a nonmobile adc to rush Talisman. But also then only if you have weak initiation as the support. So perhaps as Thresh or Blitzcrank in a Garen, Olaf, random midlaner, Jinx team.
On June 04 2015 18:44 JimmiC wrote: Maybe u can't 1v5 but ADCs still carry a ton of games. saying anything else is pretty much qqing.
yeah but there's no denying that adc is the most team-reliant role. it's a lot easier to help your team and carry games by getting fed as mid/top/jungle than it is as adc. even if you're fed you still need your team to peel for you and shit
Maybe. Maybe the solution to ADC is to stop trying to make big plays.
On June 04 2015 18:44 JimmiC wrote: Maybe u can't 1v5 but ADCs still carry a ton of games. saying anything else is pretty much qqing.
yeah but there's no denying that adc is the most team-reliant role. it's a lot easier to help your team and carry games by getting fed as mid/top/jungle than it is as adc. even if you're fed you still need your team to peel for you and shit
Maybe. Maybe the solution to ADC is to stop trying to make big plays.
On June 04 2015 22:22 loSleb wrote: Everyone who builds coin, not playing Soraka, gives me cancer.
and i always go boots on soraka lel nekos leona made my eyes bleed in go4lol face of the mountian is literally the best or 2nd best item in the game and go goes for one of the worst
On June 04 2015 22:22 loSleb wrote: Everyone who builds coin, not playing Soraka, gives me cancer.
and i always go boots on soraka lel nekos leona made my eyes bleed in go4lol face of the mountian is literally the best or 2nd best item in the game and go goes for one of the worst
The glorious storm's fury isn't a wimpy coin support. All hail Captain's boots combat Janna.
EDIT: Just how insanely good do you have to do as adc to get a S/S+ rating? Finally had a game where I did pretty good as adc: 7/0 with 186 cs into 20m surrender win and only got A- .....
I get S rating with supports the easiest if I play like a pussy and don't die. I get them most on junglers if I constantly gank and just get kills/assists/objectives. Top I have yet to get an S because I just play lazy and tp when I'm needed, and I don't play mid and adc enough to know.
I think stuff like kill participation and warding is taken into account. I ended up with S- as Maokai despite a 0-3-1 or 0-4-1 start vs Ryze, because I ended up sacrifying 20+ cs to tp bot, participate in 3 kills and a dragon, before moving back up.
Also remember that you're not evaluated on absolutes, but relative to other people who played that champion.
or just play a low winrate champ like jax in a low kda position like top lane and get S+ with like 17/6 or something lol
warding and counter warding is definitely taken into account for support because ive had plenty of perfect soraka games with like S or S- with a disgusting kda and kill partip %
Yeah. It feels really easy to get S/S+ as support. On mid/adc it feel rediculously hard, never gotten even a flat A on those roles, gotten S/S+ on top/jungle and support multiple times.
Might be because I play carries extremely selfish. Heh.
Think I've had S several times as Viktor, maybe S+ not sure. But I upgrade my yellow trinket as soon as I hit 9 (unless I can finish a big item at that point) and if we're prepping drake and lack a pink I'll buy it myself. Also Viktor lolfarming when you aren't against a dick match-up.
I haven't had issues getting an S+/S/S- rating on an ADC. CSing is my weakest point so maybe it might be damage done that's a little low that hurts the grading?
On June 04 2015 18:44 JimmiC wrote: Maybe u can't 1v5 but ADCs still carry a ton of games. saying anything else is pretty much qqing.
yeah but there's no denying that adc is the most team-reliant role. it's a lot easier to help your team and carry games by getting fed as mid/top/jungle than it is as adc. even if you're fed you still need your team to peel for you and shit
Maybe. Maybe the solution to ADC is to stop trying to make big plays.
Or play ADC that are capable of making the plays.
By win rate that seems to be Ashe, Jinx, Sivir, Vayne(then MF/Draven). Only one of which is seen as a "playmaking ADC".
Ashe and Sivir can playmake with engages, but that isn't typically what people refer to when they say playmanking. And vayne is probably so high in win rate not because of playmaking but because games are going a lot longer with tier 2 shields and the tank preference makes tank busters good.
On June 04 2015 13:57 RagequitBM wrote: Was wondering how other ADC mains have been doing in solo queue lately. Ever since cinderhulk my winrate plummeted from around 80% to 40%. Feels like I have zero impact in every game that I fail to go 6 - 0 in lane. Is this just me being inconsistent?
Don't be afraid to force BotRK on a non-ideal ADC. Your champions theoretical peak doesn't mean shit when it can't throw out enough damage.
I am not sure this is the right advise.
IE, LW, PD, BotRK does do more damage than BT, but i think that the survivability is better with BT, and once you have BT you're wasting a lot on the lifesteal portion of BotRK compared to more crit with a second PD or more survivability with scimitar.
I think that the biggest issues with builds are
1) Not deciding on a specific timing and playing to that timing.
2) Delaying attack speed too long (the level scaling changes did a lot to move idea AS timing a lot earlier) [additionally getting shiv instead of PD]
3) over-valuing IE. We saw in the Ashe DPS example that BT-Pick-PD is about the same if not higher DPS than IE->Zeal. And while crit itself has a lower effect on DPS for Ashe than other AD's its not so much to change the calculus. I am guessing that the survivability of BT or the damage and kite on PD might mean the itemization order is pretty wrong on almost everyone.
On June 05 2015 05:23 sob3k wrote: Im pretty sure coin is optimal on janna, spelltheif is really crappy on her.
Like everyone else. Coin is great in a losing matchup. It allows you to play a bit more forward and eat damage for your ADC which you otherwise would not be able to do and still maintain high gold income. Its "total sustain lane fight power" is unmatched by the other support items.
Its weakness is in immediate power, knife can allow you to proc it early a few times and use the HP advantage to keep the other support/AD out of lane.
But neither is "optimal" on janna. It depends on what the lane is like.
On June 04 2015 18:44 JimmiC wrote: Maybe u can't 1v5 but ADCs still carry a ton of games. saying anything else is pretty much qqing.
yeah but there's no denying that adc is the most team-reliant role. it's a lot easier to help your team and carry games by getting fed as mid/top/jungle than it is as adc. even if you're fed you still need your team to peel for you and shit
Maybe. Maybe the solution to ADC is to stop trying to make big plays.
Or play ADC that are capable of making the plays.
By win rate that seems to be Ashe, Jinx, Sivir, Vayne(then MF/Draven). Only one of which is seen as a "playmaking ADC".
Ashe and Sivir can playmake with engages, but that isn't typically what people refer to when they say playmanking. And vayne is probably so high in win rate not because of playmaking but because games are going a lot longer with tier 2 shields and the tank preference makes tank busters good.
On June 04 2015 13:57 RagequitBM wrote: Was wondering how other ADC mains have been doing in solo queue lately. Ever since cinderhulk my winrate plummeted from around 80% to 40%. Feels like I have zero impact in every game that I fail to go 6 - 0 in lane. Is this just me being inconsistent?
Don't be afraid to force BotRK on a non-ideal ADC. Your champions theoretical peak doesn't mean shit when it can't throw out enough damage.
I am not sure this is the right advise.
IE, LW, PD, BotRK does do more damage than BT, but i think that the survivability is better with BT, and once you have BT you're wasting a lot on the lifesteal portion of BotRK compared to more crit with a second PD or more survivability with scimitar.
I think that the biggest issues with builds are
1) Not deciding on a specific timing and playing to that timing.
2) Delaying attack speed too long (the level scaling changes did a lot to move idea AS timing a lot earlier) [additionally getting shiv instead of PD]
3) over-valuing IE. We saw in the Ashe DPS example that BT-Pick-PD is about the same if not higher DPS than IE->Zeal. And while crit itself has a lower effect on DPS for Ashe than other AD's its not so much to change the calculus. I am guessing that the survivability of BT or the damage and kite on PD might mean the itemization order is pretty wrong on almost everyone.
On June 05 2015 05:23 sob3k wrote: Im pretty sure coin is optimal on janna, spelltheif is really crappy on her.
Like everyone else. Coin is great in a losing matchup. It allows you to play a bit more forward and eat damage for your ADC which you otherwise would not be able to do and still maintain high gold income. Its "total sustain lane fight power" is unmatched by the other support items.
Its weakness is in immediate power, knife can allow you to proc it early a few times and use the HP advantage to keep the other support/AD out of lane.
But neither is "optimal" on janna. It depends on what the lane is like.
If the issue as an ADC is that you die before being able to get the damage out, the logical next step is to try to put out more damage in exchange for defensiveness that isn't helping you anyway.
That's overly simplistic. Double lifesteal is fantastic vs consistent damage, for example, and if you don't survive burst, the BT shield is a necessity. The longer you live vs a tank, the more damage you're putting out.
Scimitar isn't really that great for survivability or damage for the cost unless you require the active, hence why a lot of ADCs are giving Maw a try in soloq. Maw is 600g less for more MR and similar amounts/possibly more AD, along with the 400 health shield.
People are tunnel-visioning on their 4th and 5th item choices a lot and it's killing them vs ultra-lategame tanks.
Ok, it's now official FotM is the most stupid item in the game. Just had a game where our top, jungle and I had it and made the adc immortal - who needs peel when you have a million EHP. Dont even want to know how big a total shield she had considering we had two lockets too. Rito pls.
EDIT: Too many typos, too little time. I give up, come at me any grammar officers.
On June 05 2015 09:31 Jek wrote: Ok, it's now official FotM is the most stupid item in the game. Just had a game where our top, jungle and I had it and made the adc immortal - who needs peel when you have a million EHP. Dont even want to know how big a total shield she had considering we had two lockets too. Rito pls.
And it will continue being dumb until people stop calling you a troll for building it on a non-support.
what's with the new trend of people taking no mr on their AP rune pages now? ive seen a bunch of streamers do it lately, are they all just copying faker or something?
On June 05 2015 10:01 IMoperator wrote: what's with the new trend of people taking no mr on their AP rune pages now? ive seen a bunch of streamers do it lately, are they all just copying faker or something?
For a very long time (since they changed them) using scaling CDR/scaling AP blues has been the high risk/high reward choice for AP mid laners.
I got S+ as support Lux, fully stacked Mejai's ftw
League of skillshots don't need MR if you don't get hit. I get hit, so I take MR blues. Plus I haven't updated any of my rune pages in years, except a couple of jungle ones. I honestly think it doesn't matter that much.
Ekkos damage output on his passive is through the roof. Lol.
That and his W is essentially old Veigar E, just easier to land and lacking a cutout in the middle. With a 600 Damage shield.
You cannot trade with him when his W is up because then he just laughs in your face and chunks you for 40% and laughs because of the shield.
Even if you catch him without the W up, he presses E, dodges your skill shot, and then proceeds to all in you.
What an awesome champion. Whenever he isn't banned its freelo for days. Huge lane bully, good wave clear, hard CC, big burst damage, big sustained damage...
His only weakness is that he is melee. I don't even think he is particularly difficult to play. He is Akali with Ahri Q, Veigar stun, and R at level 2. Quit banning this champion, I want to climb.
On June 04 2015 18:44 JimmiC wrote: Maybe u can't 1v5 but ADCs still carry a ton of games. saying anything else is pretty much qqing.
yeah but there's no denying that adc is the most team-reliant role. it's a lot easier to help your team and carry games by getting fed as mid/top/jungle than it is as adc. even if you're fed you still need your team to peel for you and shit
Maybe. Maybe the solution to ADC is to stop trying to make big plays.
Or play ADC that are capable of making the plays.
By win rate that seems to be Ashe, Jinx, Sivir, Vayne(then MF/Draven). Only one of which is seen as a "playmaking ADC".
Ashe and Sivir can playmake with engages, but that isn't typically what people refer to when they say playmanking. And vayne is probably so high in win rate not because of playmaking but because games are going a lot longer with tier 2 shields and the tank preference makes tank busters good.
On June 04 2015 14:15 Gahlo wrote:
On June 04 2015 13:57 RagequitBM wrote: Was wondering how other ADC mains have been doing in solo queue lately. Ever since cinderhulk my winrate plummeted from around 80% to 40%. Feels like I have zero impact in every game that I fail to go 6 - 0 in lane. Is this just me being inconsistent?
Don't be afraid to force BotRK on a non-ideal ADC. Your champions theoretical peak doesn't mean shit when it can't throw out enough damage.
I am not sure this is the right advise.
IE, LW, PD, BotRK does do more damage than BT, but i think that the survivability is better with BT, and once you have BT you're wasting a lot on the lifesteal portion of BotRK compared to more crit with a second PD or more survivability with scimitar.
I think that the biggest issues with builds are
1) Not deciding on a specific timing and playing to that timing.
2) Delaying attack speed too long (the level scaling changes did a lot to move idea AS timing a lot earlier) [additionally getting shiv instead of PD]
3) over-valuing IE. We saw in the Ashe DPS example that BT-Pick-PD is about the same if not higher DPS than IE->Zeal. And while crit itself has a lower effect on DPS for Ashe than other AD's its not so much to change the calculus. I am guessing that the survivability of BT or the damage and kite on PD might mean the itemization order is pretty wrong on almost everyone.
On June 05 2015 05:23 sob3k wrote: Im pretty sure coin is optimal on janna, spelltheif is really crappy on her.
Like everyone else. Coin is great in a losing matchup. It allows you to play a bit more forward and eat damage for your ADC which you otherwise would not be able to do and still maintain high gold income. Its "total sustain lane fight power" is unmatched by the other support items.
Its weakness is in immediate power, knife can allow you to proc it early a few times and use the HP advantage to keep the other support/AD out of lane.
But neither is "optimal" on janna. It depends on what the lane is like.
If the issue as an ADC is that you die before being able to get the damage out, the logical next step is to try to put out more damage in exchange for defensiveness that isn't helping you anyway.
There are two ways to go if you're not surviving.
1) more burst.
2) more defensiveness.
Items with high consistent damage like botrk aren't that great here since they don't keep you alive or give you burst. IE only gives you burst if you're lucky. Even with the lifesteal on the prof the lifesteal on BT is a lot stronger.
Double lifesteal however is bad; buy red pots instead and work towards an actual good item timing.
Edit: well that is a bit too simple. Double lifesteal can be OK if you go back with enough to one buy the item. But generally you have to build it and a long sword plus a red pot is 35 AD and 10% physical vamp for 800 or so gold. The same price as a vamp scepter. And since you already have lifesteal the vamp isn't doing you much good for farming sustain so just get the damn rage pot and be a lot stronger when it's necessary. Then you can build whatever the proper dps item ought to be.
On June 05 2015 10:01 IMoperator wrote: what's with the new trend of people taking no mr on their AP rune pages now? ive seen a bunch of streamers do it lately, are they all just copying faker or something?
For a very long time (since they changed them) using scaling CDR/scaling AP blues has been the high risk/high reward choice for AP mid laners.
More specifically the CDR or AP let's you hit essential wave clear timings faster which lets you accelerate your items regardless of what the other guy is doing even if your behind.
On June 04 2015 18:44 JimmiC wrote: Maybe u can't 1v5 but ADCs still carry a ton of games. saying anything else is pretty much qqing.
yeah but there's no denying that adc is the most team-reliant role. it's a lot easier to help your team and carry games by getting fed as mid/top/jungle than it is as adc. even if you're fed you still need your team to peel for you and shit
Maybe. Maybe the solution to ADC is to stop trying to make big plays.
Or play ADC that are capable of making the plays.
By win rate that seems to be Ashe, Jinx, Sivir, Vayne(then MF/Draven). Only one of which is seen as a "playmaking ADC".
Ashe and Sivir can playmake with engages, but that isn't typically what people refer to when they say playmanking. And vayne is probably so high in win rate not because of playmaking but because games are going a lot longer with tier 2 shields and the tank preference makes tank busters good.
On June 04 2015 14:15 Gahlo wrote:
On June 04 2015 13:57 RagequitBM wrote: Was wondering how other ADC mains have been doing in solo queue lately. Ever since cinderhulk my winrate plummeted from around 80% to 40%. Feels like I have zero impact in every game that I fail to go 6 - 0 in lane. Is this just me being inconsistent?
Don't be afraid to force BotRK on a non-ideal ADC. Your champions theoretical peak doesn't mean shit when it can't throw out enough damage.
I am not sure this is the right advise.
IE, LW, PD, BotRK does do more damage than BT, but i think that the survivability is better with BT, and once you have BT you're wasting a lot on the lifesteal portion of BotRK compared to more crit with a second PD or more survivability with scimitar.
I think that the biggest issues with builds are
1) Not deciding on a specific timing and playing to that timing.
2) Delaying attack speed too long (the level scaling changes did a lot to move idea AS timing a lot earlier) [additionally getting shiv instead of PD]
3) over-valuing IE. We saw in the Ashe DPS example that BT-Pick-PD is about the same if not higher DPS than IE->Zeal. And while crit itself has a lower effect on DPS for Ashe than other AD's its not so much to change the calculus. I am guessing that the survivability of BT or the damage and kite on PD might mean the itemization order is pretty wrong on almost everyone.
On June 05 2015 05:23 sob3k wrote: Im pretty sure coin is optimal on janna, spelltheif is really crappy on her.
Like everyone else. Coin is great in a losing matchup. It allows you to play a bit more forward and eat damage for your ADC which you otherwise would not be able to do and still maintain high gold income. Its "total sustain lane fight power" is unmatched by the other support items.
Its weakness is in immediate power, knife can allow you to proc it early a few times and use the HP advantage to keep the other support/AD out of lane.
But neither is "optimal" on janna. It depends on what the lane is like.
If the issue as an ADC is that you die before being able to get the damage out, the logical next step is to try to put out more damage in exchange for defensiveness that isn't helping you anyway.
There are two ways to go if you're not surviving.
1) more burst.
2) more defensiveness.
Items with high consistent damage like botrk aren't that great here since they don't keep you alive or give you burst. IE only gives you burst if you're lucky. Even with the lifesteal on the prof the lifesteal on BT is a lot stronger.
Double lifesteal however is bad; buy red pots instead and work towards an actual good item timing.
Edit: well that is a bit too simple. Double lifesteal can be OK if you go back with enough to one buy the item. But generally you have to build it and a long sword plus a red pot is 35 AD and 10% physical vamp for 800 or so gold. The same price as a vamp scepter. And since you already have lifesteal the vamp isn't doing you much good for farming sustain so just get the damn rage pot and be a lot stronger when it's necessary. Then you can build whatever the proper dps item ought to be.
On June 05 2015 10:01 IMoperator wrote: what's with the new trend of people taking no mr on their AP rune pages now? ive seen a bunch of streamers do it lately, are they all just copying faker or something?
For a very long time (since they changed them) using scaling CDR/scaling AP blues has been the high risk/high reward choice for AP mid laners.
More specifically the CDR or AP let's you hit essential wave clear timings faster which lets you accelerate your items regardless of what the other guy is doing even if your behind.
Double lifesteal is perfectly legit on adcs where you can extend teamfights for a long time. Most of the time though you dont want to sacrifice the huge 2 item spike that is IE + PD/SS.
But on like a vayne? Going double lifesteal for more survivability can be favorable against certain comps. I wouldn't do it if I was ahead, but where defense is necessary and qss doesn't help i sometimes will get bt and botrk. Sure I don't three shot squishies, but I can extend fights for so long that sometimes it ends up worth it.
In general though crit is king on ads. A single crit on a priority target can completely swing a game in your favor
On June 04 2015 18:44 JimmiC wrote: Maybe u can't 1v5 but ADCs still carry a ton of games. saying anything else is pretty much qqing.
yeah but there's no denying that adc is the most team-reliant role. it's a lot easier to help your team and carry games by getting fed as mid/top/jungle than it is as adc. even if you're fed you still need your team to peel for you and shit
Maybe. Maybe the solution to ADC is to stop trying to make big plays.
Or play ADC that are capable of making the plays.
By win rate that seems to be Ashe, Jinx, Sivir, Vayne(then MF/Draven). Only one of which is seen as a "playmaking ADC".
Ashe and Sivir can playmake with engages, but that isn't typically what people refer to when they say playmanking. And vayne is probably so high in win rate not because of playmaking but because games are going a lot longer with tier 2 shields and the tank preference makes tank busters good.
On June 04 2015 14:15 Gahlo wrote:
On June 04 2015 13:57 RagequitBM wrote: Was wondering how other ADC mains have been doing in solo queue lately. Ever since cinderhulk my winrate plummeted from around 80% to 40%. Feels like I have zero impact in every game that I fail to go 6 - 0 in lane. Is this just me being inconsistent?
Don't be afraid to force BotRK on a non-ideal ADC. Your champions theoretical peak doesn't mean shit when it can't throw out enough damage.
I am not sure this is the right advise.
IE, LW, PD, BotRK does do more damage than BT, but i think that the survivability is better with BT, and once you have BT you're wasting a lot on the lifesteal portion of BotRK compared to more crit with a second PD or more survivability with scimitar.
I think that the biggest issues with builds are
1) Not deciding on a specific timing and playing to that timing.
2) Delaying attack speed too long (the level scaling changes did a lot to move idea AS timing a lot earlier) [additionally getting shiv instead of PD]
3) over-valuing IE. We saw in the Ashe DPS example that BT-Pick-PD is about the same if not higher DPS than IE->Zeal. And while crit itself has a lower effect on DPS for Ashe than other AD's its not so much to change the calculus. I am guessing that the survivability of BT or the damage and kite on PD might mean the itemization order is pretty wrong on almost everyone.
On June 05 2015 05:23 sob3k wrote: Im pretty sure coin is optimal on janna, spelltheif is really crappy on her.
Like everyone else. Coin is great in a losing matchup. It allows you to play a bit more forward and eat damage for your ADC which you otherwise would not be able to do and still maintain high gold income. Its "total sustain lane fight power" is unmatched by the other support items.
Its weakness is in immediate power, knife can allow you to proc it early a few times and use the HP advantage to keep the other support/AD out of lane.
But neither is "optimal" on janna. It depends on what the lane is like.
If the issue as an ADC is that you die before being able to get the damage out, the logical next step is to try to put out more damage in exchange for defensiveness that isn't helping you anyway.
There are two ways to go if you're not surviving.
1) more burst.
2) more defensiveness.
Items with high consistent damage like botrk aren't that great here since they don't keep you alive or give you burst. IE only gives you burst if you're lucky. Even with the lifesteal on the prof the lifesteal on BT is a lot stronger.
Double lifesteal however is bad; buy red pots instead and work towards an actual good item timing.
Edit: well that is a bit too simple. Double lifesteal can be OK if you go back with enough to one buy the item. But generally you have to build it and a long sword plus a red pot is 35 AD and 10% physical vamp for 800 or so gold. The same price as a vamp scepter. And since you already have lifesteal the vamp isn't doing you much good for farming sustain so just get the damn rage pot and be a lot stronger when it's necessary. Then you can build whatever the proper dps item ought to be.
On June 05 2015 10:03 Velocirapture wrote:
On June 05 2015 10:01 IMoperator wrote: what's with the new trend of people taking no mr on their AP rune pages now? ive seen a bunch of streamers do it lately, are they all just copying faker or something?
For a very long time (since they changed them) using scaling CDR/scaling AP blues has been the high risk/high reward choice for AP mid laners.
More specifically the CDR or AP let's you hit essential wave clear timings faster which lets you accelerate your items regardless of what the other guy is doing even if your behind.
Double lifesteal is perfectly legit on adcs where you can extend teamfights for a long time. Most of the time though you dont want to sacrifice the huge 2 item spike that is IE + PD/SS.
But on like a vayne? Going double lifesteal for more survivability can be favorable against certain comps. I wouldn't do it if I was ahead, but where defense is necessary and qss doesn't help i sometimes will get bt and botrk. Sure I don't three shot squishies, but I can extend fights for so long that sometimes it ends up worth it.
In general though crit is king on ads. A single crit on a priority target can completely swing a game in your favor
I was under the impression he was talking about 5 offensive items, not rushing double life steal. Like going ie pd lw bt bortk instead of a defensive item.
In other news, the chinese server apparently hasn't discovered ap kog is a viable pick. I feel like I should be abusing this in solo queue, but mid lane is probably my worst role, and laning against solo queue leblanc, annie, zed, talon, fizz etc...
Well think of it like this. Come a big mid game teamfight would you rather have BT, Botrk or a BT, PD, and rage pot?
They do similar dps, but rage pot has better scaling due to the crit, and better lifesteal due to physical vamp, a better build path due to zeal and the ability to get the rage pot whenever, better kite due to move speed/AS and no minion blocking, and scales better into the lategame due to crit.
Similar question pops up when considering BT after a botrk. Rage pot and LW and starting a defensive item just trounces it for much cheaper with a better build in. Or BF and a rage pot allowing you to go for IE or a better mixed defensive item like big hexdrinker.
Edit: I feel like you should almost always go whisper second after botrk if you get botrk first. That or Yomuus. You have no AD so crit is almost worthless. You have no crit so IE passive still sucks. You've got AS and Physical on hit and a physical active and so pen is your next logical buy. Plus is cheap to accentuate your one item/two item timing. Then you can get PD and then IE.
Edit: lategame you have the same conundrum if you already have BT. You almost always do something else better with any other option besides botrk. If you have botrk however things aren't quite so simple as the shield on BT makes it very effective regardless of your prior itemization (even if it's potentially not the highest dps item). Super late game you should always be selling your botrk for the holy 5 ADC items of IE,PD,LW,BT, (one of PD, Ghostblade, Scimitar, maw)
On June 04 2015 18:44 JimmiC wrote: Maybe u can't 1v5 but ADCs still carry a ton of games. saying anything else is pretty much qqing.
yeah but there's no denying that adc is the most team-reliant role. it's a lot easier to help your team and carry games by getting fed as mid/top/jungle than it is as adc. even if you're fed you still need your team to peel for you and shit
Maybe. Maybe the solution to ADC is to stop trying to make big plays.
Or play ADC that are capable of making the plays.
By win rate that seems to be Ashe, Jinx, Sivir, Vayne(then MF/Draven). Only one of which is seen as a "playmaking ADC".
Ashe and Sivir can playmake with engages, but that isn't typically what people refer to when they say playmanking. And vayne is probably so high in win rate not because of playmaking but because games are going a lot longer with tier 2 shields and the tank preference makes tank busters good.
On June 04 2015 14:15 Gahlo wrote:
On June 04 2015 13:57 RagequitBM wrote: Was wondering how other ADC mains have been doing in solo queue lately. Ever since cinderhulk my winrate plummeted from around 80% to 40%. Feels like I have zero impact in every game that I fail to go 6 - 0 in lane. Is this just me being inconsistent?
Don't be afraid to force BotRK on a non-ideal ADC. Your champions theoretical peak doesn't mean shit when it can't throw out enough damage.
I am not sure this is the right advise.
IE, LW, PD, BotRK does do more damage than BT, but i think that the survivability is better with BT, and once you have BT you're wasting a lot on the lifesteal portion of BotRK compared to more crit with a second PD or more survivability with scimitar.
I think that the biggest issues with builds are
1) Not deciding on a specific timing and playing to that timing.
2) Delaying attack speed too long (the level scaling changes did a lot to move idea AS timing a lot earlier) [additionally getting shiv instead of PD]
3) over-valuing IE. We saw in the Ashe DPS example that BT-Pick-PD is about the same if not higher DPS than IE->Zeal. And while crit itself has a lower effect on DPS for Ashe than other AD's its not so much to change the calculus. I am guessing that the survivability of BT or the damage and kite on PD might mean the itemization order is pretty wrong on almost everyone.
On June 05 2015 05:23 sob3k wrote: Im pretty sure coin is optimal on janna, spelltheif is really crappy on her.
Like everyone else. Coin is great in a losing matchup. It allows you to play a bit more forward and eat damage for your ADC which you otherwise would not be able to do and still maintain high gold income. Its "total sustain lane fight power" is unmatched by the other support items.
Its weakness is in immediate power, knife can allow you to proc it early a few times and use the HP advantage to keep the other support/AD out of lane.
But neither is "optimal" on janna. It depends on what the lane is like.
If the issue as an ADC is that you die before being able to get the damage out, the logical next step is to try to put out more damage in exchange for defensiveness that isn't helping you anyway.
There are two ways to go if you're not surviving.
1) more burst.
2) more defensiveness.
Items with high consistent damage like botrk aren't that great here since they don't keep you alive or give you burst. IE only gives you burst if you're lucky. Even with the lifesteal on the prof the lifesteal on BT is a lot stronger.
Double lifesteal however is bad; buy red pots instead and work towards an actual good item timing.
Edit: well that is a bit too simple. Double lifesteal can be OK if you go back with enough to one buy the item. But generally you have to build it and a long sword plus a red pot is 35 AD and 10% physical vamp for 800 or so gold. The same price as a vamp scepter. And since you already have lifesteal the vamp isn't doing you much good for farming sustain so just get the damn rage pot and be a lot stronger when it's necessary. Then you can build whatever the proper dps item ought to be.
On June 05 2015 10:03 Velocirapture wrote:
On June 05 2015 10:01 IMoperator wrote: what's with the new trend of people taking no mr on their AP rune pages now? ive seen a bunch of streamers do it lately, are they all just copying faker or something?
For a very long time (since they changed them) using scaling CDR/scaling AP blues has been the high risk/high reward choice for AP mid laners.
More specifically the CDR or AP let's you hit essential wave clear timings faster which lets you accelerate your items regardless of what the other guy is doing even if your behind.
Double lifesteal is perfectly legit on adcs where you can extend teamfights for a long time. Most of the time though you dont want to sacrifice the huge 2 item spike that is IE + PD/SS.
But on like a vayne? Going double lifesteal for more survivability can be favorable against certain comps. I wouldn't do it if I was ahead, but where defense is necessary and qss doesn't help i sometimes will get bt and botrk. Sure I don't three shot squishies, but I can extend fights for so long that sometimes it ends up worth it.
In general though crit is king on ads. A single crit on a priority target can completely swing a game in your favor
I was under the impression he was talking about 5 offensive items, not rushing double life steal. Like going ie pd lw bt bortk instead of a defensive item.
In other news, the chinese server apparently hasn't discovered ap kog is a viable pick. I feel like I should be abusing this in solo queue, but mid lane is probably my worst role, and laning against solo queue leblanc, annie, zed, talon, fizz etc...
Considering how dive happy china is, pretty sure picking ap kog is just asking to be dove.
You have to be kidding about the selling the botrk part. If you're in a lategame as a Vayne or Twitch and you don't have a blade you're doing it wrong.
I think you really undersell the impact the % current health per auto can give you. If you're in a game against tanks that extra damage does wonders. Sure you don't hit as hard for each auto, but depending on the enemy composition you can hit harder.
Also, the active on blade is amazing for kiting/dueling and that doesn't get translated to gold most of the time.
You're being way too rigid on what's important on an AD. Sometimes, you want the double lifesteal. Although I agree that rushing double lifesteal is pretty bad, that doesn't mean that double lifesteal itself is bad. It's just a situational decision.
Also, Kalista's most common build is double lifesteal with runaan's.
I am dead serious about selling botrk. You will do less damage to every target. You won't lifesteal appreciably more. You will be easier to kill and have a harder time positioning.
Look when you have BT,IE,LW, rage pot, 1 dragon your total AD is going to be somewhere around 400(maybe more). The 30% crit on PD is worth nearly 200 damage per auto attack. Which is more damage than botrk on enemies with less than 2250 HP. So unless you back load your damage AND the enemy tank has >4500 HP and you don't have to worry about killing anyone else in a time sensitive maner you're better off with another PD. And if you don't want the PD or ghostblade then you want a defensive item like scimitar or Maw.
And sure Kalista's most common build is double lifesteal with ruunans. But she should still sell botrk and ruunans come the super lategame because if she doesn't the one who does will fucking truck the other in damage dealt.
holy shit i thought this guy was just playing normals vs. bronze/silver players, but he's been raping people in diamond ranked with new ryze. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=fun fest
On June 05 2015 17:40 Goumindong wrote: I am dead serious about selling botrk. You will do less damage to every target. You won't lifesteal appreciably more. You will be easier to kill and have a harder time positioning.
Look when you have BT,IE,LW, rage pot, 1 dragon your total AD is going to be somewhere around 400(maybe more). The 30% crit on PD is worth nearly 200 damage per auto attack. Which is more damage than botrk on enemies with less than 2250 HP. So unless you back load your damage AND the enemy tank has >4500 HP and you don't have to worry about killing anyone else in a time sensitive maner you're better off with another PD. And if you don't want the PD or ghostblade then you want a defensive item like scimitar or Maw.
And sure Kalista's most common build is double lifesteal with ruunans. But she should still sell botrk and ruunans come the super lategame because if she doesn't the one who does will fucking truck the other in damage dealt.
The only solution is be a god on positioning, fuck any defensive option and go IE/PD/LW/BT/Botrk/Boots->switched to TF if enough money to truly become the hypercarry your team deserved. I am 90% serious.
i go qss/mercurial in like 75% of my games because if someone hits you with some random cc you dont automatically lose the game from it. tanks are still way too strong though, thornmail is such a pain in the ass to deal with.
holy shit i thought this guy was just playing normals vs. bronze/silver players, but he's been raping people in diamond ranked with new ryze. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=fun fest
i know who im gonna be permabanning
Looking at that video, what stands out to me is his skill order. It's something along the lines of QWEWWRQWWQ.
It's very counter-intuitive. Normally one would assume Q should come first since it does the same base damage as W, has scaling tied to rank, and has a 4 second CD. Leveling W first seems like it'd be bad since the cooldown is so long, the range is so short, and you weaken your primary poke/damage ability.
Except once you have 3 ranks in W you can nearly perma-root your opponent, which makes it brutally simple to actually land Qs. In that situation Ryze simply wins 1v1 unless you can interrupt the combo, because nobody is going to outdamage Ryze while his passive is proc'd.
holy shit i thought this guy was just playing normals vs. bronze/silver players, but he's been raping people in diamond ranked with new ryze. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=fun fest
i know who im gonna be permabanning
Looking at that video, what stands out to me is his skill order. It's something along the lines of QWEWWRQWWQ.
It's very counter-intuitive. Normally one would assume Q should come first since it does the same base damage as W, has scaling tied to rank, and has a 4 second CD. Leveling W first seems like it'd be bad since the cooldown is so long, the range is so short, and you weaken your primary poke/damage ability.
Except once you have 3 ranks in W you can nearly perma-root your opponent, which makes it brutally simple to actually land Qs. In that situation Ryze simply wins 1v1 unless you can interrupt the combo, because nobody is going to outdamage Ryze while his passive is proc'd.
I don't really know how you interrupt his combo when he builds like RoA and defensive items anyways, even if you silence him and whatnot it's not like it's easy to gib a Ryze. His root is also 600 range. 600.
holy shit i thought this guy was just playing normals vs. bronze/silver players, but he's been raping people in diamond ranked with new ryze. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=fun fest
i know who im gonna be permabanning
Looking at that video, what stands out to me is his skill order. It's something along the lines of QWEWWRQWWQ.
It's very counter-intuitive. Normally one would assume Q should come first since it does the same base damage as W, has scaling tied to rank, and has a 4 second CD. Leveling W first seems like it'd be bad since the cooldown is so long, the range is so short, and you weaken your primary poke/damage ability.
Except once you have 3 ranks in W you can nearly perma-root your opponent, which makes it brutally simple to actually land Qs. In that situation Ryze simply wins 1v1 unless you can interrupt the combo, because nobody is going to outdamage Ryze while his passive is proc'd.
I don't really know how you interrupt his combo when he builds like RoA and defensive items anyways, even if you silence him and whatnot it's not like it's easy to gib a Ryze. His root is also 600 range. 600.
He won't have RoA or defensive items during the laning phase, which is where the combo has its greatest potency. So if you can stun/silence him and heap on the damage you can potentially beat him. Alternatively you can use that opportunity to simply break out of the permaroot and disengage.
If you look at all the champions in the video they either lacked the tools to do stop Ryze from utillizing his passive, or had squandered those tools immediately prior (Cho'gath in particular was especially guilty of this). The only one who had a chance was probably Cassiopeia, but she didn't react quickly enough and Ryze sidestepped her ult.
I'm not sure if this is a straight up imbalance or if it's just a lack of respect for Ryze when his passive is about to proc.
Riot: We made Ryze Q a skillshot, because counterplay! Ryze Players: Skillshot Q sucks Ryze: Come on already. Riot: Ok ok, we make his passive and ult not ridiculously short. Ryze: Alright alright alright. Ryze Players: Lolz Skillshots? Look at this other targeted nuke we can max! With bonus infinite roots!
The way it plays, is that they really just made Ryze into a kind of AP Gnar, where if his passive is up is like if Gnar's rage bar is close to full, which is a stupid mechanic for the health of the game, but thats how you have to play the game out.
holy shit i thought this guy was just playing normals vs. bronze/silver players, but he's been raping people in diamond ranked with new ryze. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=fun fest
i know who im gonna be permabanning
Looking at that video, what stands out to me is his skill order. It's something along the lines of QWEWWRQWWQ.
It's very counter-intuitive. Normally one would assume Q should come first since it does the same base damage as W, has scaling tied to rank, and has a 4 second CD. Leveling W first seems like it'd be bad since the cooldown is so long, the range is so short, and you weaken your primary poke/damage ability.
Except once you have 3 ranks in W you can nearly perma-root your opponent, which makes it brutally simple to actually land Qs. In that situation Ryze simply wins 1v1 unless you can interrupt the combo, because nobody is going to outdamage Ryze while his passive is proc'd.
I don't really know how you interrupt his combo when he builds like RoA and defensive items anyways, even if you silence him and whatnot it's not like it's easy to gib a Ryze. His root is also 600 range. 600.
He won't have RoA or defensive items during the laning phase, which is where the combo has its greatest potency. So if you can stun/silence him and heap on the damage you can potentially beat him. Alternatively you can use that opportunity to simply break out of the permaroot and disengage.
If you look at all the champions in the video they either lacked the tools to do stop Ryze from utillizing his passive, or had squandered those tools immediately prior (Cho'gath in particular was especially guilty of this). The only one who had a chance was probably Cassiopeia, but she didn't react quickly enough and Ryze sidestepped her ult.
I'm not sure if this is a straight up imbalance or if it's just a lack of respect for Ryze when his passive is about to proc.
Ryze has full control of the lane and can trade with W (rather than saving to prevent ganks), which is a good spot for him since he can still wreck havoc in teamfights.
I never looked at the numbers in the rework, but who thought giving a 4sec reduction on every spellcast would be a viable thing? The passive takes like 20 sec and 180mana to set-up so you don't even lose out if you take don't take advantage of it. Heck, the Q skillshot makes it even better since you don't need an enemy nearby to start gaining stacks.
I think going Void and basically shutting down their frontline in teamfights is a better playstyle now than going tank and trying to jump on the backline.
I thought Ryze would be good because of the 6 second, nearly permanent-in-fights passive after 16. If you just fought til lategame, you'd machine-gun shit down regardless of who you were hitting with your Q because lol36% shred, ridiculous root time and high bases/scaling compared to amount of spell casts.
On June 06 2015 00:13 Sufficiency wrote: I think BT first has been strong since the IE nerf (IE on Lucian, for example, makes 0 sense to me).
Yeah. Double crit makes no sense. Plz. Lucian essentially has freee pseudo AS, making crit scale harder on him than most adc.
Lucians passive is just an auto attack multiplier. His free psuedo AS makes crit and AD and lifesteal and penetration scale harder on him than AS but does not alter the ideal ratio of AD/Lifesteal/penetration/crit. His abilities all have AD/AS scaling not crit scaling and that scaling is fairly high compared to other AD's
That isn't to say that crit isn't good, but it is to say that crit isn't so much better than other attributes that you should buy it if you wouldn't otherwise.
Pls stop with this bs.If it wasn't included in patch notes that ie lost 5% crit nobody would've noticed.The dps with zeal instead of finishing ie on average might be better but it doesn't give you as good of a chance to just randomly destroy someone.
Quick do the stats - does the lifesteal from BT allow you to survive that much longer to compensate for the fact you don't have 250% crit every 5 shots?
Are we really arguing IE vs BT? Both serve completely different functions. One makes you not die, and do some damage, the other makes you do tons of damage (ty Phreak) and if you kill them fast enough you also don't die.
On June 06 2015 05:22 Zdrastochye wrote: Are we really arguing IE vs BT? Both serve completely different functions. One makes you not die, and do some damage, the other makes you do tons of damage (ty Phreak) and if you kill them fast enough you also don't die.
So? Which one would you buy first, on Lucian in particular? Do you think it depends on situation whatsoever?
On June 06 2015 05:22 Zdrastochye wrote: Are we really arguing IE vs BT? Both serve completely different functions. One makes you not die, and do some damage, the other makes you do tons of damage (ty Phreak) and if you kill them fast enough you also don't die.
So? Which one would you buy first, on Lucian in particular? Do you think it depends on situation whatsoever?
generally IE but I think you can go BT if your comp revolves around snowballing the early to mid game like in SKT vs CJ game 4. bang went BT first there on lucian and I really liked how he just went ham on the sivir and then lifestealed back up to force 5v4's elsewhere on the map.
granted its a pretty niche situation though so I would just advocate IE first on lucian
Yup.
Also with IE you have flexibility between Ghostblade and Shiv/PD 2nd item.
having pick order be random is one of the dumbest things riot has done to ranked. dont know why they had a problem with the mmr based pick order but w/e
On June 06 2015 09:10 IMoperator wrote: having pick order be random is one of the dumbest things riot has done to ranked. dont know why they had a problem with the mmr based pick order but w/e
Recognising some players as more skilled than others is toxic.
It was changed for both of those reasons. Knowing someone is "better" than you caused people to be toxic and there was basically no advantage to it because for the vast vast majority of players the MMR difference was negligible.
I was finding the combos with Kalista's ult weird (in that "why can't I press any button in 4+ seconds despite having Mercs" weird), so I checked the wiki. Didn't realise they make the knock-up time scale to it ends as 2s of uncleansable/reductible cc. Well that's sweet.
I think they should switch Ryze' Ult and his passive. Make his ult like 10 seconds of zomg pewpewpewpew. Give him passive sustain.
I think that fixes him. Gates his wtf bbq kill everything a little bit more than as of now where like jhe just presses Q 4 times while running to an objective then presses R where the fight breaks loose and proceeds to fuck everyone there with like 4k single target damage and 2k AoE damage.
I think you could probably completely remove the AoE damage on his R and he would still smash face.
i mean i just dumpstered a vlad when i had no idea what ryze did apart from looking at the reddit video once people just need to not be greedy little bitches and back off when he has four orbs around him wewo COUNTERPLAY
On June 06 2015 09:10 IMoperator wrote: having pick order be random is one of the dumbest things riot has done to ranked. dont know why they had a problem with the mmr based pick order but w/e
Dude in 5th pick could be literally 10 MMR worse than 1st pick and asshole teammates could call him a fucking shitter scrub.
Only thing weird with playing Ryze, is I feel he has this insane power lull from like Level 5 thru like 11 / 12. A big part of it is itemization. Lategame you just need a Seraphs Embrace and a Stacked RoA. Thing is, in lane a lot of bruisers can just build full retard MR and smash your face regardless.
For example, I just laned against an Irelia. I FB'd her. I was like 30 creeps ahead, 2 kills. We both hit like level 7; I have 2x Dring + Tear + Catalyst + Blasting Wand. Meanwhile, Irelia has three Negatron cloaks, shoes, and a Dsword... completely fucked me in a 1v1. Nearly twice her gold but just kind of meant nothing; she took that and zoned me a little and eventually won the lane.
Still won the game because lollategameryze.. But... (Dat 4k Sustained damage w/ 2k aoe team damage in 6 seconds 2 gud.)
I guess in the future I just need to pay more attention to opponents items even when I wicked snowballing. Its weird because every other lane bully can just Rush Pen, but like Ryze wants that Tear to be stacking and that RoA asap, can't really punish the full retard MR sprint.
On June 06 2015 11:59 iCanada wrote: Yeah, he is kind of silly right now.
Only thing weird with playing Ryze, is I feel he has this insane power lull from like Level 5 thru like 11 / 12. A big part of it is itemization. Lategame you just need a Seraphs Embrace and a Stacked RoA. Thing is, in lane a lot of bruisers can just build full retard MR and smash your face regardless.
For example, I just laned against an Irelia. I FB'd her. I was like 30 creeps ahead, 2 kills. We both hit like level 7; I have 2x Dring + Tear + Catalyst + Blasting Wand. Meanwhile, Irelia has three Negatron cloaks, shoes, and a Dsword... completely fucked me in a 1v1. Nearly twice her gold but just kind of meant nothing; she took that and zoned me a little and eventually won the lane.
Still won the game because lollategameryze.. But... (Dat 4k Sustained damage w/ 2k aoe team damage in 6 seconds 2 gud.)
I guess in the future I just need to pay more attention to opponents items even when I wicked snowballing. Its weird because every other lane bully can just Rush Pen, but like Ryze wants that Tear to be stacking and that RoA asap, can't really punish the full retard MR sprint.
the ol stack negatrons in top....even if you win lane its really really bad.
The worst is when you are vs like vlad and its zed or some bs mid. If you stack MR you survive the lane, then get fucking exploded in every teamfight.
Are there any tricks when your game gets drophacked? These last few days it's happening a lot... not necessarily my games, but the servershard. I'm sick and tired of just waiting hours until I can play again
On June 06 2015 22:57 JimmiC wrote: Ever since this ekko patch I get these random lag spikes and they are really shitty. Makes playing so hard when u never know hen u are are going to freeze or be regular.
That has been happening to me too.
Randomly my ping will be like friggen 999 for no reason. Its on Riot's end as well. I've checked, my connection stays pretty peachy keen.
On June 07 2015 00:23 Celial wrote: Are there any tricks when your game gets drophacked? These last few days it's happening a lot... not necessarily my games, but the servershard. I'm sick and tired of just waiting hours until I can play again
On June 07 2015 00:23 Celial wrote: Are there any tricks when your game gets drophacked? These last few days it's happening a lot... not necessarily my games, but the servershard. I'm sick and tired of just waiting hours until I can play again
I've heard somebody say sometimes you can get around it by continuing to click and hoping you can outlast the overload.
On June 06 2015 22:57 JimmiC wrote: Ever since this ekko patch I get these random lag spikes and they are really shitty. Makes playing so hard when u never know hen u are are going to freeze or be regular.
That has been happening to me too.
Randomly my ping will be like friggen 999 for no reason. Its on Riot's end as well. I've checked, my connection stays pretty peachy keen.
Lol same here.... except its not ping issues or FPS issues, its weird packet loss that makes my character stand still even when im spamming actions and no its not my mouse. I've lost 2 games since this last patch or hotfix whatever and its really getting on my nerves
On June 07 2015 16:47 ticklishmusic wrote: You can't instantly QEQ after W, have to wait for a moment until part of the snare has happened so the timing works.
Pre 6: 14s - 12s = 2s leftover Post 6 (10% CDR): 12.6s - 10.8s = 1.8s Post11 (20% CDR): 1.6s Post 16 (30% CDR): 1.4s
So your snare needs enough levels and you have to be lvl 11 (or pick up some CDR elsewhere) to perma snare.
On June 07 2015 16:47 ticklishmusic wrote: You can't instantly QEQ after W, have to wait for a moment until part of the snare has happened so the timing works.
Pre 6: 14s - 12s = 2s leftover Post 6 (10% CDR): 12.6s - 10.8s = 1.8s Post11 (20% CDR): 1.6s Post 16 (30% CDR): 1.4s
So your snare needs enough levels and you have to be lvl 11 (or pick up some CDR elsewhere) to perma snare.
Also have ult for reset post-6
Yea thanks I thought of it then forgot to put it in lol, only for the first rotation though
On June 06 2015 11:46 FinestHour wrote: i mean i just dumpstered a vlad when i had no idea what ryze did apart from looking at the reddit video once people just need to not be greedy little bitches and back off when he has four orbs around him wewo COUNTERPLAY
Four orbs?
You need 1 orb to start the full combo at lvl 6. You are going to play around Ryze having at least 1 orb? Good luck farming.
On June 07 2015 23:43 Ketara wrote: Looks balanced.
Is this only possible since 5.10? Because I remember you guys saying new ryze was shit repeatedly.
As anyone who played aram know he was still super strong in lategame before 5.10, but this patch they buffed ult and passives duration which is what kept him somewhat in check before.
On June 07 2015 23:43 Ketara wrote: Looks balanced.
Is this only possible since 5.10? Because I remember you guys saying new ryze was shit repeatedly.
He could do this at level 16 before. Could do one less rotation at 11, I think? And the duration at 1/6 was too shit to care about.
A W CD nerf is inevitable, I think. Probably some lower E damage as well.
I really doubt they'll change the passive. The 3/4 second passive felt like ass.
Maybe they just make it like -3s instead of -4s or something. Even disregarding his WTF bullshit perma W lock currently, just the shear damage from E/Q when his passive is up is disgusting, so any CD nerf kinda useless since both Q/E are off CD instantly upoin using the other, so W be back off CD so fast regardless making it perma spammable anyways.
I think thats the way to tackle it, make the passive -2 seconds, then -3 seconds, then -4 seconds upon ult ranks or something.
^The damage itself isn't even that bad, it's not even Cassiopeia level. The issue really is mostly the snare and how early you can go completely ham with him.
3 second passive was able to hit twice with the snare , that should be fine. For the lvl 3 instakills etc, even nerfing it down to like 4 seconds wouldn't do much, usually the opponent is dead before your passive ends anyway. Personally, I'd do something with the snare instead.
The problem with Ryze is that you need to do everything right for it to be so good, probably like 95% of the players can't use him close to his potential which makes balancing him rather difficult. It's not like he's even at 50% winrate in ranked, I believe.
They could make the minimum CD reduced 0.5s instead of 0.25 and call it a day, that should be OK as well.
On June 08 2015 00:50 Shikyo wrote: 3 second passive was able to hit twice with the snare , that should be fine. For the lvl 3 instakills etc, even nerfing it down to like 4 seconds wouldn't do much, usually the opponent is dead before your passive ends anyway. Personally, I'd do something with the snare instead.
The problem with Ryze is that you need to do everything right for it to be so good, probably like 95% of the players can't use him close to his potential which makes balancing him rather difficult. It's not like he's even at 50% winrate in ranked, I believe.
Lolwut.
Potential?
You just get 4 orbs, then fucking mash your keyboard. how do you fuck that up? Thats like making shitty Poutine... Its Gravy, Fries and Cheese... Shit always tastes good.
Its not like playing Zed or something. You cannot just like derp your combo. Its impossible. Mash the damn buttons. 4 Orbs has like 30 seconds window you can hover on it. lol.
The damage is pretty ridiculous late game, actually. Single target I'd say its Casseo level, but the thing is you also have like 2k AoE damage. I've gotten 5 quadra kills just facerolling my keyboard in 15 games.,
On June 08 2015 00:50 Shikyo wrote: 3 second passive was able to hit twice with the snare , that should be fine. For the lvl 3 instakills etc, even nerfing it down to like 4 seconds wouldn't do much, usually the opponent is dead before your passive ends anyway. Personally, I'd do something with the snare instead.
The problem with Ryze is that you need to do everything right for it to be so good, probably like 95% of the players can't use him close to his potential which makes balancing him rather difficult. It's not like he's even at 50% winrate in ranked, I believe.
Lolwut.
Potential?
You just get 4 orbs, then fucking mash your keyboard. how do you fuck that up? Thats like making shitty Poutine... Its Gravy, Fries and Cheese... Shit always tastes good.
Its not like playing Zed or something. You cannot just like derp your combo. Its impossible. Mash the damn buttons. 4 Orbs has like 30 seconds window you can hover on it. lol.
If you mash your kb it ends. It needs to be done in exactly the right order.
Late game the damage is crazy yes, but he's an immobile APC who isn't even building supertanky anymore. Also, Cass has AoE as well and actual AoE hard CC.
On June 08 2015 00:50 Shikyo wrote: 3 second passive was able to hit twice with the snare , that should be fine. For the lvl 3 instakills etc, even nerfing it down to like 4 seconds wouldn't do much, usually the opponent is dead before your passive ends anyway. Personally, I'd do something with the snare instead.
The problem with Ryze is that you need to do everything right for it to be so good, probably like 95% of the players can't use him close to his potential which makes balancing him rather difficult. It's not like he's even at 50% winrate in ranked, I believe.
Lolwut.
Potential?
You just get 4 orbs, then fucking mash your keyboard. how do you fuck that up? Thats like making shitty Poutine... Its Gravy, Fries and Cheese... Shit always tastes good.
Its not like playing Zed or something. You cannot just like derp your combo. Its impossible. Mash the damn buttons. 4 Orbs has like 30 seconds window you can hover on it. lol.
If you mash your kb it ends. It needs to be done in exactly the right order.
You hit W first then you mash your keyboard.... it will always go in the right order.
On June 08 2015 01:11 kongoline wrote: ^not everybody played protoss in broodwar :D
I didn't either. Was just a bad Zerg player. (But your right, 1m2m3a4a1a2a prolly more realistic)
LOL.
I guess I dont really mash the keyboard, more rhythmically hit qwer. But still, I dont think its particularly difficult. All you have to do is hit W first, then cycle qweqweqweqweqweqweqweqweqweqweqweqweqweqweqweqweqweqwe.
Do you run any CDR? I dont pause at all, just roll over things.
Maybe thats where things get easy for me, I run CDR Blues on Ryze, because none of the items I want have it (RoA, boots, Seraphs, VoidStaff, Zhonya, Abyssal.
/shrug
It might be smart of me to just replace the CDR w/ AP or something, cuz realistically doesn't really change the damage output at all, in fact I probably do less damage.
On June 08 2015 01:23 ticklishmusic wrote: I mean there's a slight pause between hitting w and q the first time because otherwise you don't get the chain
I don't see how this makes the slightest bit of sense. Can you explain the logic behind this? Isn't the delay just in a different place - What does that matter?
On June 06 2015 11:46 FinestHour wrote: i mean i just dumpstered a vlad when i had no idea what ryze did apart from looking at the reddit video once people just need to not be greedy little bitches and back off when he has four orbs around him wewo COUNTERPLAY
Four orbs?
You need 1 orb to start the full combo at lvl 6. You are going to play around Ryze having at least 1 orb? Good luck farming.
So what's the tl;dr on Ryze? Is it a case of Riot fucking up hardcore and letting him get away with something he shouldn't be able to do? I know they buffed him this patch but I didn't think anything affected his W? Or is it because of his passive and ult getting its buffs that're allowing this stuff to happen?
On June 08 2015 11:13 Kinie wrote: So what's the tl;dr on Ryze? Is it a case of Riot fucking up hardcore and letting him get away with something he shouldn't be able to do? I know they buffed him this patch but I didn't think anything affected his W? Or is it because of his passive and ult getting its buffs that're allowing this stuff to happen?
He could do this before, but only at 16.
Being able to solo people before then gets him so far ahead he can then 1v2+. The potential was there pre-5.10, and he wasn't really 10% winrate worse than now, but the buffs were big. People also figured out what to level early. His early game went quickly from shit to godtier.
On June 08 2015 11:13 Kinie wrote: So what's the tl;dr on Ryze? Is it a case of Riot fucking up hardcore and letting him get away with something he shouldn't be able to do? I know they buffed him this patch but I didn't think anything affected his W? Or is it because of his passive and ult getting its buffs that're allowing this stuff to happen?
He could do this before, but only at 16.
Being able to solo people before then gets him so far ahead he can then 1v2+. The potential was there pre-5.10, and he wasn't really 10% winrate worse than now, but the buffs were big. People also figured out what to level early. His early game went quickly from shit to godtier.
So, people realized that now that Q isn't a point and click damage burst, they instead max the OTHER point and click damage burst, which just so happens to SNARE the target too? And oh, by the way, if you know what the fuck you're doing when you mash the keyboard they get perma-snared and the enemy has NOTHING they can do to stop it?
If it was me, I'd just nerf it so that the W snare applies a buff to the enemy target that prevents them from getting snared by Ryze W for 6/5/4/3/2 seconds.
Yeah essentially they moved his powerspike from 16 down to 6. At 6 there's very few laners he can't just straight up kill with even the most modest of leads. The problem with him is really his W. If you got 50% reduced root time for each subsequent root on the same target in x seconds time window he'd be fine I think.
I remember a Ryze 100-0ing me in two rotations (playing Maokai, he hit 6 first as I came back from buying, I walk in lane ready to hit minions and he combo kills me in around 4 seconds; he didn't even do it properly because he only snared me twice). I also faced a Ryze who maxed R > E > Q > W today, around level 10 when I had Cowl+Catalyst+dring and he had catalyst+ a late tear, I waited for 4 stacks on my passive and his just expired, W to him to start a fight knowing I'll at least use my passive twice before he triggers his, plus I activate my ult to reduce damage some more.
When I walk away after my ult runs out and a last Q, I end up around 110 HP, he's at 75. Imagine if I wasn't ahead on items or he had more stacks on his passive or he skilled properly or I missed an auto to trigger my passive (I think I triggered it 3 or 4 times, so that's 20% damage reduction + 18~24% max HP healing), I'd have gotten wrecked.
Laning's also super annoying because his mana costs early on are super low, so even if he looks like he only has 100 mana he can still deal 200~300 damage between autos and spells if you try to last hit a minion. Perma-zoned from the first time he gets to E me near my minion wave and I take ~200 damage from EQ.
On June 08 2015 11:34 FinestHour wrote: all it took was one pro in one game to release the floodgate thats never happened before no ones ever done that before in the history of video gaemz
ryze was perma ban in korean high soloQ before huni played him in lcs
On June 08 2015 12:06 kongoline wrote: wait so its really his gf ? i was convinced its xj9 hiding his identity cuz of bans on twitch/league, even playing the same champions ....
On June 08 2015 12:06 kongoline wrote: wait so its really his gf ? i was convinced its xj9 hiding his identity cuz of bans on twitch/league, even playing the same champions ....
Its him, he and his moderators in his twitch chat all deny it but its pretty obvious lol
On June 08 2015 12:06 kongoline wrote: wait so its really his gf ? i was convinced its xj9 hiding his identity cuz of bans on twitch/league, even playing the same champions ....
My bad. Sarcasm conveys poorly on the Internet. Haha.
On June 08 2015 11:13 Kinie wrote: So what's the tl;dr on Ryze? Is it a case of Riot fucking up hardcore and letting him get away with something he shouldn't be able to do? I know they buffed him this patch but I didn't think anything affected his W? Or is it because of his passive and ult getting its buffs that're allowing this stuff to happen?
On June 08 2015 11:13 Kinie wrote: So what's the tl;dr on Ryze? Is it a case of Riot fucking up hardcore and letting him get away with something he shouldn't be able to do? I know they buffed him this patch but I didn't think anything affected his W? Or is it because of his passive and ult getting its buffs that're allowing this stuff to happen?
He could do this before, but only at 16.
Being able to solo people before then gets him so far ahead he can then 1v2+. The potential was there pre-5.10, and he wasn't really 10% winrate worse than now, but the buffs were big. People also figured out what to level early. His early game went quickly from shit to godtier.
So, people realized that now that Q isn't a point and click damage burst, they instead max the OTHER point and click damage burst, which just so happens to SNARE the target too? And oh, by the way, if you know what the fuck you're doing when you mash the keyboard they get perma-snared and the enemy has NOTHING they can do to stop it?
If it was me, I'd just nerf it so that the W snare applies a buff to the enemy target that prevents them from getting snared by Ryze W for 6/5/4/3/2 seconds.
Basically. The problem with pre-Buff Ryze was he was one of the worst laners in the game. Now he is a terrible laner when he isn't close to activating passive, but then amazing when he can activate it at will. Basically, think of him as a kind of AP Gnar in that way. If you nerf his W like that you might balance him temporarily, but you still have a champion with a kit that is terrible for laning (unless its ridiculously overtuned like it is now). He needs better waveclear to have a sustainable kit longterm, or they should make his passive not be inactive/active (Gnar Style) because its just bad game design.
Current Ryze with waveclear and something like his old passive would be the most boring champ in the game.
He should/probably will be balanced around Q. Right now Q is irrelevant because you just burn it for CDs, hope it hits, and if it doesn't, too bad, WE killed them anyway. If it was dependent on chaining Qs, you've actually got to hit shit, and now Ryze is balanced.
On June 08 2015 14:08 Caiada wrote: Current Ryze with waveclear and something like his old passive would be the most boring champ in the game.
He should/probably will be balanced around Q. Right now Q is irrelevant because you just burn it for CDs, hope it hits, and if it doesn't, too bad, WE killed them anyway. If it was dependent on chaining Qs, you've actually got to hit shit, and now Ryze is balanced.
But Q is a shitty move. It cant be used for trading, or waveclear, or harass, or poke. Basically its good for contesting neutral objectives only. Basically, your Ryze is a Mundo that uses mana and has a significant amount of his power dependent on the # of orbs he has.
On June 08 2015 14:49 Ketara wrote: I thought cleavers were amazing for csing.
They are, but are also basically free now, and Dr. Mundo is basically the type of champion that Riot seems to be trying to move away from. I wouldn't mind Ryze as one of those "if I'm not 30 CS behind I'm ahead" champions, but I doubt that would be allowed for very long. Also, mid-lategame Mundo is a pretty good splitpusher with his W/R, better poker because of Q's % HP, and can chase well with Q. It just seems like that proposal is a super-extreme AP Mundo. Plus the orb management, which I think is bad based on what we have seen with Gnar (to a lesser extent, Rengar).
I don't know why its confusing the issue. It seems they don't want to give him waveclear, they took away his lane bully potential intentionally(and gave it back unintentionally, and will obviously be removing that). He only has 1 single target CC, which is really maximized in that lane bully scenario. I also doubt (nor want) they are giving Ryze a dash. So what kind of levers are you left with besides teamfight-oriented tankiness and damage?
On June 08 2015 12:06 kongoline wrote: wait so its really his gf ? i was convinced its xj9 hiding his identity cuz of bans on twitch/league, even playing the same champions ....
Come on, it's obviously him.
i never understood how he gets so much farm and carries so hard from jungle
I beat ryze as top upgot, seems to work pretty well both in harass situations and all in situations because the suppression takes a lot of the time of the passive active and the damage reduction passive, despite the fact that I'm not a good urgot and I fed the rest of the game after laning phase.
Pretty sure Vladimir etc. beat Ryze as well for similar reasons. The pool takes so much time off his passive and ult and his sustain is super powerful.
On June 08 2015 20:06 IMoperator wrote: also im trying to play ekko, how the fuck do you get past laning phase not with a massive deficit in cs? his laning seems to be really bad imo.
Stoo trying to srun with W cuz just the shield wins you trades. Use E to dodge spells then go hard.
Same as fizz really. Dodge, attack, gtfo.
You get to dodge a spell, port to them with a shield, proc your passive with the run fast and the Q slow and dip til your skills back on cd having won the trade handily. All skill shot mages should get bodied by him. You just can't be aggressive against them in lane till you're ahead.
On June 08 2015 16:47 cLutZ wrote: I don't know why its confusing the issue. It seems they don't want to give him waveclear, they took away his lane bully potential intentionally(and gave it back unintentionally, and will obviously be removing that). He only has 1 single target CC, which is really maximized in that lane bully scenario. I also doubt (nor want) they are giving Ryze a dash. So what kind of levers are you left with besides teamfight-oriented tankiness and damage?
this is good, talking about mundo, bad
I would add in a normal balanced situation where W isn't permenant the 'clarity' of the orbs makes laning super hard for him.
On June 08 2015 16:47 cLutZ wrote: I don't know why its confusing the issue. It seems they don't want to give him waveclear, they took away his lane bully potential intentionally(and gave it back unintentionally, and will obviously be removing that). He only has 1 single target CC, which is really maximized in that lane bully scenario. I also doubt (nor want) they are giving Ryze a dash. So what kind of levers are you left with besides teamfight-oriented tankiness and damage?
this is good, talking about mundo, bad
I would add in a normal balanced situation where W isn't permenant the 'clarity' of the orbs makes laning super hard for him.
Isn't he just bad again then? Ryze's q, is the lamest skill in league of legends.
On June 08 2015 16:47 cLutZ wrote: I don't know why its confusing the issue. It seems they don't want to give him waveclear, they took away his lane bully potential intentionally(and gave it back unintentionally, and will obviously be removing that). He only has 1 single target CC, which is really maximized in that lane bully scenario. I also doubt (nor want) they are giving Ryze a dash. So what kind of levers are you left with besides teamfight-oriented tankiness and damage?
this is good, talking about mundo, bad
I would add in a normal balanced situation where W isn't permenant the 'clarity' of the orbs makes laning super hard for him.
Isn't he just bad again then? Ryze's q, is the lamest skill in league of legends.
Unless they change him every single patch, making his combos be in constant flux and keeping Q interesting through means of exploration. Upside is they're already doing it.
Internet working fine (got a stream right besides), but LoL lagging into "attempting to reconnect" and ping set to 500. Is that a drophack or EUW crapping itself?
And I can't reconnect to the game, getting the pop-up that tells me to check my firewall. So... I assume it's drophack then?
On June 09 2015 07:18 Ketara wrote: How am I supposed to talk to my internet friends on TL about my amazing travel stories if OT is locked.
Because some people don't like the most popular thread on this site(or at least top 5 correct me if I'm wrong and you can show the numbers) being offtopic. Because fun is bad, or as they'll put it we crossed a line.
On June 09 2015 07:18 Ketara wrote: How am I supposed to talk to my internet friends on TL about my amazing travel stories if OT is locked.
Because some people don't like the most popular thread on this site(or at least top 5 correct me if I'm wrong and you can show the numbers) being offtopic. Because fun is bad, or as they'll put it we crossed a line.
Chill.
Get in ts tonight around 10 est if you can. Were going to talk about it with everyone at length.
OT leaking into GD, the cycle really has continued on.
Leona's new E radius is hilarious because on LAN servers she's almost perma lock/fp status ~diamond, and half of these "diamond" supports now can't hit a zenith to save their life. I tried her out myself and it's really not any harder to hit if you actually aim at the person, but I think perhaps that's ping/hardware issues for those playing in South America. Anyways, interesting thing I noted about 5.10.
- No Ryze nerfs/changes - VERY minor Ekko nerfs (basically to not let Ekko jungle be viable) - Ashe Q nerf, Cailtyn passive buff - Sivir ult nerf - Shen buffs
So unless things change (ie., Riot makes changes w/ no balance testing on them) Ryze and Ekko will remain on permaban/FP status in solo Q and pro play, Sivir may fall out of the meta finally, and Shen might return to pro play.
Well, better get used to league of dive/tank ladies and gents, looks like it's gonna be sticking around for a while.
On June 09 2015 08:29 Zdrastochye wrote: OT leaking into GD, the cycle really has continued on.
Leona's new E radius is hilarious because on LAN servers she's almost perma lock/fp status ~diamond, and half of these "diamond" supports now can't hit a zenith to save their life. I tried her out myself and it's really not any harder to hit if you actually aim at the person, but I think perhaps that's ping/hardware issues for those playing in South America. Anyways, interesting thing I noted about 5.10.
thank god(rito) for that nerf though, it was straight up retarded how big the hitbox for that thing was.
On June 09 2015 08:35 Kinie wrote: So with things that're on PBE right now, there's:
- No Ryze nerfs/changes - VERY minor Ekko nerfs (basically to not let Ekko jungle be viable) - Ashe Q nerf, Cailtyn passive buff - Sivir ult nerf - Shen buffs
So unless things change (ie., Riot makes changes w/ no balance testing on them) Ryze and Ekko will remain on permaban/FP status in solo Q and pro play, Sivir may fall out of the meta finally, and Shen might return to pro play.
Well, better get used to league of dive/tank ladies and gents, looks like it's gonna be sticking around for a while.
That would be just...irresponsible? Is that the word?
On June 09 2015 08:35 Kinie wrote: So with things that're on PBE right now, there's:
- No Ryze nerfs/changes - VERY minor Ekko nerfs (basically to not let Ekko jungle be viable) - Ashe Q nerf, Cailtyn passive buff - Sivir ult nerf - Shen buffs
So unless things change (ie., Riot makes changes w/ no balance testing on them) Ryze and Ekko will remain on permaban/FP status in solo Q and pro play, Sivir may fall out of the meta finally, and Shen might return to pro play.
Well, better get used to league of dive/tank ladies and gents, looks like it's gonna be sticking around for a while.
Clssic Riot balancing. There's a reason why LoL has such blatant metas, and it's that Riot doesn't know how to buff/nerf effectively, but also in moderation at the same time.
On June 09 2015 08:35 Kinie wrote: So with things that're on PBE right now, there's:
- No Ryze nerfs/changes New developement. Hasn't been a competitive issue, where most people came into contact with how ridiculous he is, for even a full 7 days yet. Unreasonable to expect something to be mocked up and tossed up when Riot's been winding down on development for the patch and been packing it up for live. - VERY minor Ekko nerfs (basically to not let Ekko jungle be viable) Too short a span to appropriately deal with him. His Plat+ winrate is barely over 47%. Better to let the community settle into his existence for a bit. - Ashe Q nerf, Cailtyn passive buff - Sivir ult nerf - Shen buffs
So unless things change (ie., Riot makes changes w/ no balance testing on them) Ryze and Ekko will remain on permaban/FP status in solo Q and pro play, Sivir may fall out of the meta finally, and Shen might return to pro play.
Well, better get used to league of dive/tank ladies and gents, looks like it's gonna be sticking around for a while.
On June 09 2015 08:35 Kinie wrote: So with things that're on PBE right now, there's:
- No Ryze nerfs/changes New developement. Hasn't been a competitive issue, where most people came into contact with how ridiculous he is, for even a full 7 days yet. Unreasonable to expect something to be mocked up and tossed up when Riot's been winding down on development for the patch and been packing it up for live. - VERY minor Ekko nerfs (basically to not let Ekko jungle be viable) Too short a span to appropriately deal with him. His Plat+ winrate is barely over 47%. Better to let the community settle into his existence for a bit. - Ashe Q nerf, Cailtyn passive buff - Sivir ult nerf - Shen buffs
So unless things change (ie., Riot makes changes w/ no balance testing on them) Ryze and Ekko will remain on permaban/FP status in solo Q and pro play, Sivir may fall out of the meta finally, and Shen might return to pro play.
Well, better get used to league of dive/tank ladies and gents, looks like it's gonna be sticking around for a while.
Ok I normally would agree with the whole "we only just found out about this champion issue during LCS" but it's a power spike that exists as early as level 6 and we saw that even if you play nearly perfect mechanics-wise like Piglet did on Vayne, the moment you get caught in the W perma-snare combo it doesn't matter what you do, even if you have/use QSS (which is supposed to be the anti-CC mechanic for ADCs to use).
Either disable him for competitive play, quickly throw something out there to stop it, or revert the changes you did to him until you can figure something out to stop the perma-snare combo from happening. There's already been suggestions on reddit, here, and other forums that Riot can use to stop the perma-snare from happening and not alter/change the other buffs that went through on him in 5.10.
On June 09 2015 08:35 Kinie wrote: So with things that're on PBE right now, there's:
- No Ryze nerfs/changes New developement. Hasn't been a competitive issue, where most people came into contact with how ridiculous he is, for even a full 7 days yet. Unreasonable to expect something to be mocked up and tossed up when Riot's been winding down on development for the patch and been packing it up for live. - VERY minor Ekko nerfs (basically to not let Ekko jungle be viable) Too short a span to appropriately deal with him. His Plat+ winrate is barely over 47%. Better to let the community settle into his existence for a bit. - Ashe Q nerf, Cailtyn passive buff - Sivir ult nerf - Shen buffs
So unless things change (ie., Riot makes changes w/ no balance testing on them) Ryze and Ekko will remain on permaban/FP status in solo Q and pro play, Sivir may fall out of the meta finally, and Shen might return to pro play.
Well, better get used to league of dive/tank ladies and gents, looks like it's gonna be sticking around for a while.
Ok I normally would agree with the whole "we only just found out about this champion issue during LCS" but it's a power spike that exists as early as level 6 and we saw that even if you play nearly perfect mechanics-wise like Piglet did on Vayne, the moment you get caught in the W perma-snare combo it doesn't matter what you do, even if you have/use QSS (which is supposed to be the anti-CC mechanic for ADCs to use).
Either disable him for competitive play, quickly throw something out there to stop it, or revert the changes you did to him until you can figure something out to stop the perma-snare combo from happening.
The issue with "in week" disables is that it fucks over teams preperation, because Ryze is a champion they could(and should) have been practicing.
Ekko is a whole different story though. Ekko reminds me of Kalista as one of those "SHOULD NOT HAVE EXISTED" kind of champion.
My issue with Ekko isn't so much that he is OP - I really don't think he is that strong. The problem seems to be that his kit is so counter-intuitive and so different from how most champions work that it requires a large burden of knowledge just to know what he does (especially his W and R). I can't help but to think that Ekko is poorly designed.
The problem with Ekko and all "outplay" champions is that "outplay" is just a Riot codeword for "do stuff other champs can't do." Which is ironic, since they're all about their "fun" and "antifun" philosophy, but champions like Ekko/Fizz/Leblanc/etc. with the "outplay" potential is really just not fun for people playing against those champs.
"Outplay" and "playmaking" are absurd notions when 80% of the available champions don't have the kit to do anything remotely approaching what these champs can do. So to realize Ekko is problematic all you had to do is listen to how many times the word "outplay" and variants thereof were used the champ select.
On June 09 2015 11:39 Sufficiency wrote: I don't think Ryze needs to be disabled. But he does require a specific team comp to be shutted down and that's problematic.
He is nowhere near the level that requires disabling and/or hotfix.
That doesn't even make sense. They disable new champions for the first week they go to a patch. They also disabled Shen for like a year for a bug that would affect fewer games than current Ryze and Ekko will. Basically, they should have said the second after the last LCS game was played this week that Ryze (and Ekko) would not be available until the next patch. But it doesn't even matter at the moment because they still aren't really fixing the problems in the next patch.
On June 06 2015 07:19 Saradin wrote: The guy who reported is the one who did the right thing to do, ethics-wise.
On June 04 2015 14:15 cLutZ wrote:
On June 04 2015 13:58 Saradin wrote: 'down the road' is not just Deficio. It's a warning shot for the rest of your current, and future, employees. A nip it in the bud sort of mentality.
Well its also telling potential future employees (and those with contracts upcoming) that they should demand significantly higher salaries from Riot than from comparable corps. Its somewhat short-sighted, because right now many of their employees are basically LOL-only personalities, but this could be a reason not many respected people are flowing into the dev side of the company, and it may be why Monte is so reluctant to become an LCS caster and Joe/Deman preferred migrating to other games with far less exposure.
It will be very interesting to see if Riot is a 1-hit wonder developer or if they can expand. Because many of their moves do seem to assume that their brand is built on being an elite company with ingenious ideas, instead of a few, somewhat lucky things they did in 2008, 09, 10 plus institutional momentum
If a prospective future employee can successfully demand a higher salary, more power to them. You're 'worth' what you can command, anyway.
My interpretation of Riot's moves is that they've basically put all their eggs in one basket, League of Legends. At most, they may make more products using the IP, but I don't see them branching out beyond this franchise. Here I wrote a bit about my personal guess of Riot's intention, although it's messy. Basically the lack of other games in the past 5+ years combined with the resources poured into the competitive environment tells me that Riot isn't necessarily following conventional videogame industry goals. I think that there's a bigger picture ambition here that I'm surprised at how few people discuss.
To you and everyone else defending the snitch. I hope someday something you say, that's rather outrageous, gets taken out of context and you get reported to HR or have the cops called on you. Thus tarnishing your reputation. Then you can tell me how ethical it is to take your issues to extremes by reporting people like a pussy rather than dealing with your own problems like a man.
In any event, I agree that Riot is going for the long haul with LoL as a sport. I think a lot of us take that fact for granted. There was a snippet of something on Riot's corporate website from an e-sports director or manager stating their plan for LoL to stay a viable e-sport for decades to come.
(from another thread) But I think this kind of choice directly contradicts this kind of thought process.
League champion kits have gone the way of pokemon, over designed. All of the sudden there needs to be spikes and a bunch of extra shit. They've lost sight of elegance through simplicity.
On June 09 2015 11:39 Sufficiency wrote: I don't think Ryze needs to be disabled. But he does require a specific team comp to be shutted down and that's problematic.
He is nowhere near the level that requires disabling and/or hotfix.
That doesn't even make sense. They disable new champions for the first week they go to a patch. They also disabled Shen for like a year for a bug that would affect fewer games than current Ryze and Ekko will. Basically, they should have said the second after the last LCS game was played this week that Ryze (and Ekko) would not be available until the next patch. But it doesn't even matter at the moment because they still aren't really fixing the problems in the next patch.
Last time they hotfixed a champion on live due to balance reasons was Zyra. If you think the current Ryze is at least as powerful as release Zyra you are crazy.
Maybe I misunderstood you and you are only referring to disabling Ryze in competitive. In which case I have no opinion.
On June 09 2015 12:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: The problem with Ekko and all "outplay" champions is that "outplay" is just a Riot codeword for "do stuff other champs can't do." Which is ironic, since they're all about their "fun" and "antifun" philosophy, but champions like Ekko/Fizz/Leblanc/etc. with the "outplay" potential is really just not fun for people playing against those champs.
"Outplay" and "playmaking" are absurd notions when 80% of the available champions don't have the kit to do anything remotely approaching what these champs can do. So to realize Ekko is problematic all you had to do is listen to how many times the word "outplay" and variants thereof were used the champ select.
If Ekko's W didn't grant vision for the full duration i don't think it would be as much of an issue. The fact that he has a 1800 [1600 plus radius] range vision spell that is also an engage spell is pretty nuts. Its minimum CD is 8.4 seconds, which while unlikely to be achievable[well not too far off with blue buff and one CDR item] means that almost any kind of bush play simply fails, because Ekko has a 2.5 second advantage on you
On June 09 2015 11:39 Sufficiency wrote: I don't think Ryze needs to be disabled. But he does require a specific team comp to be shutted down and that's problematic.
He is nowhere near the level that requires disabling and/or hotfix.
That doesn't even make sense. They disable new champions for the first week they go to a patch. They also disabled Shen for like a year for a bug that would affect fewer games than current Ryze and Ekko will. Basically, they should have said the second after the last LCS game was played this week that Ryze (and Ekko) would not be available until the next patch. But it doesn't even matter at the moment because they still aren't really fixing the problems in the next patch.
Last time they hotfixed a champion on live due to balance reasons was Zyra. If you think the current Ryze is at least as powerful as release Zyra you are crazy.
Maybe I misunderstood you and you are only referring to disabling Ryze in competitive. In which case I have no opinion.
I only care about competitive.
Edit, or rather, I only care about soloQ in that certain champions are so much worse in soloQ that Riot seems unwilling to properly deal with them in competitive. The obvious examples that come to mind right now are Lee Sin, Thresh, and RekSai.
On June 09 2015 11:39 Sufficiency wrote: I don't think Ryze needs to be disabled. But he does require a specific team comp to be shutted down and that's problematic.
He is nowhere near the level that requires disabling and/or hotfix.
That doesn't even make sense. They disable new champions for the first week they go to a patch. They also disabled Shen for like a year for a bug that would affect fewer games than current Ryze and Ekko will. Basically, they should have said the second after the last LCS game was played this week that Ryze (and Ekko) would not be available until the next patch. But it doesn't even matter at the moment because they still aren't really fixing the problems in the next patch.
Last time they hotfixed a champion on live due to balance reasons was Zyra. If you think the current Ryze is at least as powerful as release Zyra you are crazy.
Maybe I misunderstood you and you are only referring to disabling Ryze in competitive. In which case I have no opinion.
How is Ryze not as strong as release Zyra?
Ryze has no weak lanes. He is incredibly strong late game. Has incredible kill / map pressure. Has no real inherent weakness. Is easy as all fuck to play.
Ryze right now is just silly. Ryze atm hard carries games where he didn't hard lose lane. Ryze at the moment actually just kills every single good solo laner. No one can fight him. Absolutely no one.
On June 09 2015 11:39 Sufficiency wrote: I don't think Ryze needs to be disabled. But he does require a specific team comp to be shutted down and that's problematic.
He is nowhere near the level that requires disabling and/or hotfix.
That doesn't even make sense. They disable new champions for the first week they go to a patch. They also disabled Shen for like a year for a bug that would affect fewer games than current Ryze and Ekko will. Basically, they should have said the second after the last LCS game was played this week that Ryze (and Ekko) would not be available until the next patch. But it doesn't even matter at the moment because they still aren't really fixing the problems in the next patch.
Last time they hotfixed a champion on live due to balance reasons was Zyra. If you think the current Ryze is at least as powerful as release Zyra you are crazy.
Maybe I misunderstood you and you are only referring to disabling Ryze in competitive. In which case I have no opinion.
How is Ryze not as strong as release Zyra?
Ryze has no weak lanes. He is incredibly strong late game. Has incredible kill / map pressure. Has no real inherent weakness. Is easy as all fuck to play.
Ryze right now is just silly. Ryze atm hard carries games where he didn't hard lose lane. Ryze at the moment actually just kills every single good solo laner. No one can fight him. Absolutely no one.
IIRC he is 100% win rate currently in competitive, but it's only been a week and I really think you are overreacting. I think he is pretty strong right now, but I also feel that many champions (esp. Azir) aren't really that much behind.
Which lanes exactly does he struggle with? Who wins a duel with Ryze when his passive is up?
durl not sure but chogath,cassiopeia, and smite/tp fizz work though.
also seen some ekko gameplay from various eastern mids from youtube vids/streams
Westdoor: he kinda died alot,but that game was ryze Faker: saw a stream where he played with easyhoon who played ryze (seeing a pattern) Poohmandu: played alot strangely Pawn: found this
On June 09 2015 12:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: The problem with Ekko and all "outplay" champions is that "outplay" is just a Riot codeword for "do stuff other champs can't do." Which is ironic, since they're all about their "fun" and "antifun" philosophy, but champions like Ekko/Fizz/Leblanc/etc. with the "outplay" potential is really just not fun for people playing against those champs.
"Outplay" and "playmaking" are absurd notions when 80% of the available champions don't have the kit to do anything remotely approaching what these champs can do. So to realize Ekko is problematic all you had to do is listen to how many times the word "outplay" and variants thereof were used the champ select.
I agree, but having those game mechanics available doesn't detract from champions like ryze, ashe, nunu, etc etc.
The problem arrises when those mechanics come with bonker numbers
On June 09 2015 12:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: The problem with Ekko and all "outplay" champions is that "outplay" is just a Riot codeword for "do stuff other champs can't do." Which is ironic, since they're all about their "fun" and "antifun" philosophy, but champions like Ekko/Fizz/Leblanc/etc. with the "outplay" potential is really just not fun for people playing against those champs.
"Outplay" and "playmaking" are absurd notions when 80% of the available champions don't have the kit to do anything remotely approaching what these champs can do. So to realize Ekko is problematic all you had to do is listen to how many times the word "outplay" and variants thereof were used the champ select.
I agree, but having those game mechanics available doesn't detract from champions like ryze, ashe, nunu, etc etc.
The problem arrises when those mechanics come with bonker numbers
Your examples include 1 champion that is basically 100% OP or not used, 1 that was basically unused for 2 years, and one that has a super-unique mechanic. If it were as you say, you would be citing Anivia, Volibear, Udyr, and Taric
On June 09 2015 12:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: The problem with Ekko and all "outplay" champions is that "outplay" is just a Riot codeword for "do stuff other champs can't do." Which is ironic, since they're all about their "fun" and "antifun" philosophy, but champions like Ekko/Fizz/Leblanc/etc. with the "outplay" potential is really just not fun for people playing against those champs.
"Outplay" and "playmaking" are absurd notions when 80% of the available champions don't have the kit to do anything remotely approaching what these champs can do. So to realize Ekko is problematic all you had to do is listen to how many times the word "outplay" and variants thereof were used the champ select.
I agree, but having those game mechanics available doesn't detract from champions like ryze, ashe, nunu, etc etc.
The problem arrises when those mechanics come with bonker numbers
i think the problem is more that too many mechanics are put on individual characters
On June 09 2015 12:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: The problem with Ekko and all "outplay" champions is that "outplay" is just a Riot codeword for "do stuff other champs can't do." Which is ironic, since they're all about their "fun" and "antifun" philosophy, but champions like Ekko/Fizz/Leblanc/etc. with the "outplay" potential is really just not fun for people playing against those champs.
"Outplay" and "playmaking" are absurd notions when 80% of the available champions don't have the kit to do anything remotely approaching what these champs can do. So to realize Ekko is problematic all you had to do is listen to how many times the word "outplay" and variants thereof were used the champ select.
I agree, but having those game mechanics available doesn't detract from champions like ryze, ashe, nunu, etc etc.
The problem arrises when those mechanics come with bonker numbers
Your examples include 1 champion that is basically 100% OP or not used, 1 that was basically unused for 2 years, and one that has a super-unique mechanic. If it were as you say, you would be citing Anivia, Volibear, Udyr, and Taric
I said etc. to pretty encompass "80%" that csheep quoted, only brought up those 3 because they're in meta.
I can't play teambuilder because of ryze, its completely broken. You have to literally coordinate a 3 man to kill him and if you dont layer your cc perfectly he'll take two of them with him.
this is the most stupid broken thing I've seen playing league
Ryze looks stupid as hell. The Perma root thing cannot be played around at all.
Ekko could be gutted numbers wise, but that's not the point. One champ should not have everything he has. I just realised his ult has no cost attached. More unnecessary power for a champ that doesn't need it.
I'm quite sure Riot has jumped the shark with Ekko.
EDIT: Gypsylord just posted that they will be increasing Ekko's ult cost to 100 in 5.12. Happy days.
In early laning, knowing Ryze/Yorick (pre-Tear)/Kayle can run out of mana to cast their stuff (her ult, in Kayle's case) can allow you to punish them, especially in hard match-ups, and use that one opportunity to pull ahead. A bit like Vlad blowing pool too early in a match-up he'd have no business to lose otherwise, and getting killed.
'cept you can't because Ryze's Q (and E since it's still at level 1) cost basically nothing for 200+ damage trades w/o autos, Kayle can't always ult herself and make you lose the fight, and unless Ekko is so low that even post-ult he's going to die you need to perma-cc him to get rid of him at 6, which generally isn't available.
On June 09 2015 14:26 sob3k wrote: I can't play teambuilder because of ryze, its completely broken. You have to literally coordinate a 3 man to kill him and if you dont layer your cc perfectly he'll take two of them with him.
this is the most stupid broken thing I've seen playing league
If he doesn't get fed, his teamfighting isn't that oppressive. The main problems are people trying to play melee's in lane vs him, and people trying to 1v1 him/getting caught midgame.
Cho/Cass/Fizz/Lulu/plenty of other champions go even or beat him in lane easily enough, and in teamfights he has to get sooo close that he can quite easily get focused down.
He's strong sure, but there's some hyperbole going on too
On June 09 2015 12:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: The problem with Ekko and all "outplay" champions is that "outplay" is just a Riot codeword for "do stuff other champs can't do." Which is ironic, since they're all about their "fun" and "antifun" philosophy, but champions like Ekko/Fizz/Leblanc/etc. with the "outplay" potential is really just not fun for people playing against those champs.
"Outplay" and "playmaking" are absurd notions when 80% of the available champions don't have the kit to do anything remotely approaching what these champs can do. So to realize Ekko is problematic all you had to do is listen to how many times the word "outplay" and variants thereof were used the champ select.
I think you can get even more specific than this. As far as I can tell "outplay" is synonymous with "use blinks and/or invulnerability frames to not get blown up." It doesn't help that most of the egregious offenders in the blink department also have stupid amounts of burst damage. And for the most part, the burst damage on the blinkers is much more reliable than other champions both because less of it tends to be skillshot-based and because skillshots are much easier to hit when you fire them from wherever you want.
I think a big part of the problem is that there isn't any subset of things that is specifically better against the aggressive blinkers than the rest of the champion pool. DotA has long-duration, instant silences. League just doesn't have anything resembling that. Everything that is good against a blink is equally good or better against a Jinx. And even the stuff that's theoretically good against blinks on paper, like Maokai, often works out pretty poorly; your Maokai winds up a screen and a half away in the middle of the enemy team after trying to lock down a poking Leblanc.
Sort of in this line, what I find most egregious is the champion design that brought us Kalista and Yasuo. If Riot wants to make the game about skillshots, fine; that's a legitimate design choice. Even skillshots versus blinks isn't out of the question if handled well. But if you're going to do that, why the fuck do we now have two champions that are functionally immune to skillshots?
The "long duration, instant silences" point just took me back to S1. Memories.
Riot has been systematically reducing the power of single target hard CC for quite some time. The 3 second silences, taunts, fears, and stuns have been slowly removed or reduced. The longest remaining single target hard CCs are Rammus' Taunt and Fiddlesticks' Fear at 2.25 seconds, but few last longer than 1.5.
AoE CC hasn't been proportionally affected, so it's no surprise we see so much of it in competitive play. Unless you have an exceptional form of single target CC (e.g. hooks, swaps) it's no a strong enough reason to pick that champion.
I wouldn't call Kalista immune to skillshots. Granted a played a ton of Olaf vs. Kalista over the weeks but sufficiently fast skillshots you can hit on reaction depending on where kalista jumps after her attack.
Also it doesn't work like in DotA simply because the fights are usually decided much faster in LoL, even in a tanky meta such as atm. In DotA your carries shouldn't die in 4 seconds in most cases, as a "caster" (as in int hero) your right clicks can still hurt (see QoP or Storm), and there are much more powerful abilities to protect cc'd allies (LoL basically has Fate's Call, Intervention, Chronoshift, Tempered Fate, and shields/heals/Crucible, DotA also has stuff such as Force Staff).
On another note, what do people do with mages now that utility masteries have taken a swing of the nerf bat? After 2 minutes in lane, 75 mana is strictly worse than the old regen mastery, so for a lot of champions (Viktor, Brand, Orianna, I assume Lux, etc.) it's bad and you hit mana issues. Is it worse enough to warrant going def. instead?
On June 09 2015 23:25 Alaric wrote: Also it doesn't work like in DotA simply because the fights are usually decided much faster in LoL, even in a tanky meta such as atm. In DotA your carries shouldn't die in 4 seconds in most cases, as a "caster" (as in int hero) your right clicks can still hurt (see QoP or Storm), and there are much more powerful abilities to protect cc'd allies (LoL basically has Fate's Call, Intervention, Chronoshift, Tempered Fate, and shields/heals/Crucible, DotA also has stuff such as Force Staff).
On another note, what do people do with mages now that utility masteries have taken a swing of the nerf bat? After 2 minutes in lane, 75 mana is strictly worse than the old regen mastery, so for a lot of champions (Viktor, Brand, Orianna, I assume Lux, etc.) it's bad and you hit mana issues. Is it worse enough to warrant going def. instead?
I'm not sure I agree on the mana department. Regening 75 mana from 3mp5 take over 2 minutes. Especially when there's so many other standard mana regen sources.
3mp5 = 36 mana per minute, so 72 in 2 minutes, you'd be nitpicking saying "it needs 5 more seconds than that to beat the mastery!" And that's as soon as you start casting, so you'll morre likely than not stay in lane till after 4 minutes. Unless you pick mana regen as your first buy (so grail or tear ("regen") since noone starts idol), it's still strictly worse even after that. On champions with high costs the 75 mana isn't even a single spell.
On June 10 2015 01:49 Alaric wrote: 3mp5 = 36 mana per minute, so 72 in 2 minutes, you'd be nitpicking saying "it needs 5 more seconds than that to beat the mastery!" And that's as soon as you start casting, so you'll morre likely than not stay in lane till after 4 minutes. Unless you pick mana regen as your first buy (so grail or tear ("regen") since noone starts idol), it's still strictly worse even after that. On champions with high costs the 75 mana isn't even a single spell.
No, I just stated the fact that it took over 2 minutes. You're the one inferring that I'm trying to be misleading about how long "over" amount to. Grail makes up for the lack of flat regen by increasing the effects of the % regen. Tear mages tend to care more about the size of their mana pool than the piddling amount of regen. There's so many sources of regen in the early game that if a player needs the extra 3mp5, they were probably managing it poorly anyway.
On June 09 2015 22:44 Seuss wrote: The "long duration, instant silences" point just took me back to S1. Memories.
Riot has been systematically reducing the power of single target hard CC for quite some time. The 3 second silences, taunts, fears, and stuns have been slowly removed or reduced. The longest remaining single target hard CCs are Rammus' Taunt and Fiddlesticks' Fear at 2.25 seconds, but few last longer than 1.5.
AoE CC hasn't been proportionally affected, so it's no surprise we see so much of it in competitive play. Unless you have an exceptional form of single target CC (e.g. hooks, swaps) it's no a strong enough reason to pick that champion.
On June 09 2015 22:44 Seuss wrote: The "long duration, instant silences" point just took me back to S1. Memories.
Riot has been systematically reducing the power of single target hard CC for quite some time. The 3 second silences, taunts, fears, and stuns have been slowly removed or reduced. The longest remaining single target hard CCs are Rammus' Taunt and Fiddlesticks' Fear at 2.25 seconds, but few last longer than 1.5.
AoE CC hasn't been proportionally affected, so it's no surprise we see so much of it in competitive play. Unless you have an exceptional form of single target CC (e.g. hooks, swaps) it's no a strong enough reason to pick that champion.
is ashe arrow no longer 3s at max range?
3.5, but since it's duration is variable I assume he's taking the average of 2 1/8.
On June 09 2015 18:32 Alaric wrote: In early laning, knowing Ryze/Yorick (pre-Tear)/Kayle can run out of mana to cast their stuff (her ult, in Kayle's case) can allow you to punish them, especially in hard match-ups, and use that one opportunity to pull ahead. A bit like Vlad blowing pool too early in a match-up he'd have no business to lose otherwise, and getting killed.
'cept you can't because Ryze's Q (and E since it's still at level 1) cost basically nothing for 200+ damage trades w/o autos, Kayle can't always ult herself and make you lose the fight, and unless Ekko is so low that even post-ult he's going to die you need to perma-cc him to get rid of him at 6, which generally isn't available.
Kayle's ultimate has no mana cost...
The problem in my opinion is primarily how easy to it is to utilize his passive (compared to Gnar for instance Ryze can pretty much on the flip of a switch instantly go godmode whenever he wants) secondly there is of course near perma root, which aside from being broken as hell is the most anti-fun mechanic League has had in a long long time.
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I really like the new mana mastery, at least as a support player I'd much rather be 100% to have the mana "now" instead of having to wait for regen to kick in and considering the "wasted" regeneration when your mana bar is maxed (which it pretty much always for at least the first 2 minutes in every game and after every recall) it makes for a pretty strong mastery -- just like how Veteran Scars is a million times better than Recovery.
After changes to how regen works items make regen from runes/masteries fairly insignificant very early anyway.
Yeah, but that's exactly it: Kayle's costs are low (esp. W) and she doesn't have any cost on her ult.so even if she only has 50 mana, during laning you can't all-in her because she'll turn W on, ult herself and possibly be able to turn the fight, especially if you dive her because she's low or something.
That's about the same as laning vs Katarina early on (or Zed in general): you poked her down, but you know you don't have the mana for a full rotation while she doesn't care about that, so you have to wait and regen/last hit with your dring/level up so you can get some mana back.
Managed to lose twice with Ryze today. Turns out he can't literally 1v5 when you ping Orianna's ball left on the ground but three people are standing on it four seconds later.
I actually didn't account for that since I was primarily looking at support/top/jungle champions.
Ashe's arrow is 1-3.5s, reaching maximum stun at 2800 range. Assuming the stun duration scales linearly it reaches 2.25s at 1400 range. I'd say most Ashe arrows land from significantly shorter than that, but you can argue it still remains a notable counter-example.
Back on the main line of the discussion, I think OhTwoMise's point about silences is a really good observation. The only long duration, single target silence in the game got removed with Soraka's rework (replaced with an area silence). Outside of Soraka your only silences are Cho'gath, Blitzcrank (whose ult hardly counts save as an interrupt), Fiddlesticks, Malzahar, and Garen. In fact, no new silences have been added since LeBlanc (released in November 2010!) and hers was removed a year ago.
Similarly no point and click hard CC has been added since Lulu (2012), and it's a weakish stun of sorts since its target can still move. Meanwhile Sion, Soraka, and arguably Xerath lost their point and click CCs.
On June 10 2015 03:09 Seuss wrote: I actually didn't account for that since I was primarily looking at support/top/jungle champions.
Ashe's arrow is 1-3.5s, reaching maximum stun at 2800 range. Assuming the stun duration scales linearly it reaches 2.25s at 1400 range. I'd say most Ashe arrows land from significantly shorter than that, but you can argue it still remains a notable counter-example.
Back on the main line of the discussion, I think OhTwoMise's point about silences is a really good observation. The only long duration, single target silence in the game got removed with Soraka's rework (replaced with an area silence). Outside of Soraka your only silences are Cho'gath, Blitzcrank (whose ult hardly counts save as an interrupt), Fiddlesticks, Malzahar, and Garen. In fact, no new silences have been added since LeBlanc (released in November 2010!) and hers was removed a year ago.
Similarly no point and click hard CC has been added since Lulu (2012), and it's a weakish stun of sorts since its target can still move. Meanwhile Sion, Soraka, and arguably Xerath lost their point and click CCs.
I agree with almost the whole post and don't like this trend, just to nitpick, quinn was released way after lulu and her e is point and click cc
Riot's said multiple times in recent memory that various forms of hard CC (in this case, silences, fears and stuns) are "unfun" because it doesn't allow the other player a chance to react/counter the all-in/trade.
In terms of Lulu with her transformation CC it's meant more-so as a way to silence, slow, and in some cases interrupt the person she's targeting (ie., Kat ult). But her ulti can also provide a form of CC in the case of it's knockup, and while it's not as outwardly detrimental as the W it's still another form of CC in her kit.
The point-and-click stuns/snares have generally been turned into skillshots because it allows for an outplay (by fact of simply dodging/flashing away from them) and it's easier to balance a skill shot than point-and-click damage/CC.
Edit:
In response to Quinn's "point and click" CC it's a damage skill that slows, slightly knocks the target back (so like a .5s stun at most?), and gets marked by her passive so Quinn can attack and get a nice little burst of damage done. Most people end up using it as an escape and not as a way to blow someone up.
Depends. If she runs slightly faster than you, she can use it to close the gap, hit you twice for free, including her passive at least once, without you flashing or dashing or anything (as soon as she begins the cast, you can't move anymore; I'm not sure what type of cc it is though).
On June 10 2015 04:24 Kinie wrote: Riot's said multiple times in recent memory that various forms of hard CC (in this case, silences, fears and stuns) are "unfun" because it doesn't allow the other player a chance to react/counter the all-in/trade.
In terms of Lulu with her transformation CC it's meant more-so as a way to silence, slow, and in some cases interrupt the person she's targeting (ie., Kat ult). But her ulti can also provide a form of CC in the case of it's knockup, and while it's not as outwardly detrimental as the W it's still another form of CC in her kit.
The point-and-click stuns/snares have generally been turned into skillshots because it allows for an outplay (by fact of simply dodging/flashing away from them) and it's easier to balance a skill shot than point-and-click damage/CC.
Edit:
In response to Quinn's "point and click" CC it's a damage skill that slows, slightly knocks the target back (so like a .5s stun at most?), and gets marked by her passive so Quinn can attack and get a nice little burst of damage done. Most people end up using it as an escape and not as a way to blow someone up.
I'm familiar with Riot's reasoning behind this design direction, but I think in the context of CarnivorousSheep's complaint about the meaning of "outplay" and OhTwoMise's point about the consequences of lacking single target silences we can see that Riot's philosophy isn't without its problems.
I think Riot still wants point and click. But they want them to be the "reliable" form of CC to separate from the unreliable skillshots such as from Vi (a more recent example).
If everything is reliable, then nothing is. Since most older champions have 'reliable' CC, Riot wants an environment which the unreliable versions exist as a contrast to the reliable ones.
On June 10 2015 05:06 Sufficiency wrote: I think Riot still wants point and click. But they want them to be the "reliable" form of CC to separate from the unreliable skillshots such as from Vi (a more recent example).
If everything is reliable, then nothing is. Since most older champions have 'reliable' CC, Riot wants an environment which the unreliable versions exist as a contrast to the reliable ones.
If you look at "reliable" point and click CC (e.g. no practical counters aside from Cleanse/QSS/Mikael's/Black Shield), I count 6 total in the game:
I probably missed something somewhere, but for the most part everything else allows some control of the character (i.e. slows, roots, silences, blinds), or has some means of being countered (e.g. Maokai W, Malzahar ult, Jarvan ult). If you expand outward into reliable Roots and Silences we're still only in the single digits, and at that point you have to start discussing why Kassadin, Soraka, and Sion lost their reliable CCs.
We're so far from the number of reliable CCs being a problem that the lack thereof is actually a bigger problem.
brand change is huge and unfortunately makes the champion a massive pain in the ass to deal with. emphasizing splitting correctly instead of just using hourglass.
i don't really understand how riot tries to balance kat. every change pushes her more into a feast or famine state leblanc change will help out a lot of characters that struggle to lane against her.
orianna nerf is unnecessary and honestly adds more limitations to the character despite riot's intentions. i find frequently in early mid game i need the ball to reset so i can flash ult with it on top of me. nerf prevents this.
ryze not getting touched is unfortunate.
the best change of the patch seems to be "The rank 5 Champion Mastery emote is now visible to the enemy team."
On June 10 2015 06:35 sob3k wrote: that is a really really nice Brand buff, your ult fizzling can ruin an entire teamfight. Right now I've lost tons of ults on Ekko's pressing R.
on a tangent, interestingly enough you can also dodge a vi ult with ekko ult. it also forces it on cd :x
you can dodge a vi ult with anything that makes you untargetable yeah?
On June 10 2015 05:06 Sufficiency wrote: I think Riot still wants point and click. But they want them to be the "reliable" form of CC to separate from the unreliable skillshots such as from Vi (a more recent example).
If everything is reliable, then nothing is. Since most older champions have 'reliable' CC, Riot wants an environment which the unreliable versions exist as a contrast to the reliable ones.
If you look at "reliable" point and click CC (e.g. no practical counters aside from Cleanse/QSS/Mikael's/Black Shield), I count 6 total in the game:
I probably missed something somewhere, but for the most part everything else allows some control of the character (i.e. slows, roots, silences, blinds), or has some means of being countered (e.g. Maokai W, Malzahar ult, Jarvan ult). If you expand outward into reliable Roots and Silences we're still only in the single digits, and at that point you have to start discussing why Kassadin, Soraka, and Sion lost their reliable CCs.
We're so far from the number of reliable CCs being a problem that the lack thereof is actually a bigger problem.
WW R Vi R Malz R Mao W Nasus W Lissandra R
Are the big ones. They have mid-range and single target.