EPTOn June 07 2015 09:11 MoosyDoosy wrote:
First time playing Mafia. Sounds interesting. In!
Oh, hi First time playing Mafia. Sounds interesting. In!
Newbie Student Mafia XI
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Trfel
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Trfel
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On June 07 2015 10:19 MoosyDoosy wrote: I've visited TL for years XD You should see how I'm doing in FPL this season! (though I am set for a pretty big drop this week, I think)Oh wow, hi Trfel! Didn't know you came to TL too. :D Also pretty cool meeting you in this niche part of the TL forums. Are you here for this round too? And I've played played like 12+ games of TL Mafia before. Probably not playing this game, I've had trouble motivating myself to play mafia for the past few months, but maybe! | ||
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/in: Open | ||
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On June 07 2015 11:18 Fecalfeast wrote: To me, FPL feels really luck-based? Or more likely, that's just what I say because I don't do as well as I feel I need to I thought this round was going to be my round and I'm getting hammered | ||
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On June 07 2015 11:25 Fecalfeast wrote: They release the lineups a few days before....Hard to predict who is going to play, hard to predict who's been training just to snipe someone (DeParture vs herO) Maybe if I looked at more than just wins and losses I could do better. You do your trades based on that and that really helps a ton. | ||
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On June 07 2015 11:38 Fecalfeast wrote: Yeah, but as long as you only have 2 players who aren't likely to play next week, you can trade them out again. Trade tax isn't bad as long as you trade for players who win.No I mean, it's hard to predict who will play multiple weeks in a row. Players who do well 2 weeks in a row get benched for who-know-what reason. trade tax kills me But yeah, using past games in the season (or even last season) helps to predict who will play regularly. I feel that I have a fairly good idea, having watched SC2 for way too many years, but I'm still nowhere near as good as kitaman27 and a few others here XD | ||
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 I don't have a spare trade to get rid of Dear Byebye FPL rank | ||
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Newbies 1. Rels 2. n00bKing 3. MoosyDoosy 4. Sulfurus 5. boxerfred 6. ruXxar 7. Fake)Plants Veterans 1. Kickstart 2. Trfel 3. WaveofShadow 4. geript 5. Oatsmaster 6. batsnacks Not Playing Half the Sky (replace instead) Savant.GL (TL Banned) Fidei86 (out instead) | ||
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The deadline isn't ideal for me. I should be able to be there for most of the deadlines (I hope), but I likely won't be able to stay and wait for the flip or post after the flip. | ||
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##vote Trfel | ||
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On June 12 2015 07:18 Kickstart wrote: Why don't you like it when people answer questions directed at others?A friendly PSA: I don't like lurkers or liers or people who answer questions directed at other people. | ||
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On June 12 2015 07:36 ruXxar wrote: ........Usually you want to hear the reasoning of the person you're asking. If someone answers the question before him, you potentially open up for someone else to make a logical conclusion beforehand, and then the guy the question was directed at get an easy bandwagon onto that guys conclusions. At least that is what I think. The "at least that is what I think" pushes it over the top. I could see it as a joke, but then there's no reason to include the last sentence. It's either inherently contradictory or unnecessarily cautious. Scum lean. | ||
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On June 12 2015 07:46 ruXxar wrote: Wait....What I meant by the last sentence was that that was my number one assumption of why he made that statement. I won't pretend to be a mind reader, but I find it strange that he throws out unsubstantiated claims like that. So far kickstart is a scumlean for me. So you are serious about your explanation for not answering a question directed at someone else, because it helps them answer the question if they are scum. But in saying this, you answered a question directed at someone else, your scum read? This explanation is going to be good. | ||
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On June 12 2015 07:54 ruXxar wrote: Can you please clarify, why are you scumreading Kickstart?Yes my answer was serious. I see now how that actually denied us information from kick start. It was a mistake on my part to actually answer that question. | ||
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On June 12 2015 08:04 ruXxar wrote: Thank you very much for answering my question.I didn't like his statement about not liking liars. This whole game is based on the concept of deception. If you don't like that aspect of the game, why are you here? You might claim that you like hunting lying mafia, But it's not a given beforehand what role you will be, so that doesn't make sense either. I have no prior info about any of the players here, so he might have some personal conviction for why he said that, but to me it didn't seem like a genuine well thought through statement. ##vote ruXxar | ||
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1. Answered a question directed to someone else, while explaining why answering questions directed at others hurts town + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2015 07:36 ruXxar wrote: RuXxar provided a reasonable explanation for why it is bad to answer questions directed at other people. However, this explanation was an answer to my question directed at Kickstart. In this very post, he's doing why he says that this is bad.Usually you want to hear the reasoning of the person you're asking. If someone answers the question before him, you potentially open up for someone else to make a logical conclusion beforehand, and then the guy the question was directed at get an easy bandwagon onto that guys conclusions. At least that is what I think. He's confident enough to ignore any potential purpose that I had for this question, confident enough in Kickstart's alignment that he doesn't want to hear Kickstart's answer, but not confident enough to leave the post without stating that this is what he thinks, implying that he could be wrong. 2. The person he answered a question for is now his scumread + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2015 07:46 ruXxar wrote: When he is questioned, ruxXar throws out a scum lean. However, he does this on Kickstart, the same player he just answered a question for.What I meant by the last sentence was that that was my number one assumption of why he made that statement. I won't pretend to be a mind reader, but I find it strange that he throws out unsubstantiated claims like that. So far kickstart is a scumlean for me. Imagine that ruXxar is town. He sees Kickstart make a post, but doesn't try to look into his alignment. Then he sees me (Trfel) ask a question to Kickstart about that post, then immediately answers the question without stopping to realize that this is the same behavior criticized in his explanation (and he realizes that his play hurt town here). Only after answering my question to Kickstart does he bother to actually think about Kickstart's alignment. I can't see this coming from a town mindset, from someone who is actually interested in determining people's alignments. Furthermore, he hasn't made any alignment-related comments about anyone in the game other than Kickstart. RuXxar is being contradictory, cautious, and is showing a mindset that isn't towny at all. He's not interested in thinking about people's alignments. | ||
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On June 12 2015 08:16 Kickstart wrote: Can you please clarify what you mean in the bolded sentence?Also lol@ruxxar not finding the jokey first posts 'genuine enough'. You so silly. or scum. Ill let you decide which it is. | ||
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On June 12 2015 08:29 Kickstart wrote: Thanks.I'm joking with him it means nothing. His statement was silly and scummy, I said I would let him decide which one he wants us to classify it as. (hint: I think it is mildly scummy). On June 12 2015 08:16 MoosyDoosy wrote: Now that you know that there are three mafia, do you stand by this statement?On another note, do we know how many Mafias there are? If there are two Mafias, Oatsmaster and Kickstart may be those two and may have set this up to make everyone confused and make people like you two fight amongst yourselves. | ||
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On June 12 2015 08:19 Trfel wrote: Please tell me why I'm wrong, or vote for ruXxar.ruXxar 1. Answered a question directed to someone else, while explaining why answering questions directed at others hurts town + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2015 07:36 ruXxar wrote: RuXxar provided a reasonable explanation for why it is bad to answer questions directed at other people. However, this explanation was an answer to my question directed at Kickstart. In this very post, he's doing why he says that this is bad.Usually you want to hear the reasoning of the person you're asking. If someone answers the question before him, you potentially open up for someone else to make a logical conclusion beforehand, and then the guy the question was directed at get an easy bandwagon onto that guys conclusions. At least that is what I think. He's confident enough to ignore any potential purpose that I had for this question, confident enough in Kickstart's alignment that he doesn't want to hear Kickstart's answer, but not confident enough to leave the post without stating that this is what he thinks, implying that he could be wrong. 2. The person he answered a question for is now his scumread + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2015 07:46 ruXxar wrote: When he is questioned, ruxXar throws out a scum lean. However, he does this on Kickstart, the same player he just answered a question for.What I meant by the last sentence was that that was my number one assumption of why he made that statement. I won't pretend to be a mind reader, but I find it strange that he throws out unsubstantiated claims like that. So far kickstart is a scumlean for me. Imagine that ruXxar is town. He sees Kickstart make a post, but doesn't try to look into his alignment. Then he sees me (Trfel) ask a question to Kickstart about that post, then immediately answers the question without stopping to realize that this is the same behavior criticized in his explanation (and he realizes that his play hurt town here). Only after answering my question to Kickstart does he bother to actually think about Kickstart's alignment. I can't see this coming from a town mindset, from someone who is actually interested in determining people's alignments. Furthermore, he hasn't made any alignment-related comments about anyone in the game other than Kickstart. RuXxar is being contradictory, cautious, and is showing a mindset that isn't towny at all. He's not interested in thinking about people's alignments. | ||
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On June 12 2015 08:51 n00bKing wrote: I disagree. He wouldn't dare say this as scum, unless he actually believes that it is acceptable and beneficial for town to lie. And as town, he would only say this if he actually believes it (yes, I see the irony). Either alignment, he's saying something that he believes to be true, so this isn't alignment indicative.RuXx is on the Newbie list. How likely do you think it is that an inexperienced Mafia player would lead off the game talking about how it's cool for Town players to lie? An inexperienced Mafia member might be timid about saying hardly anything, but could be especially timid about telling everyone that there's nothing wrong with telling lies, even if you're Town. That kind of reckless boldness is a little Town-indicative to me. Someone wants to vote against him because of his needless roleclaim, fine. But voting against him because he says it's fine to lie would be a stretch. And I think voting against him because he got caught answering a question directed at someone else (while explaining why you shouldn't answer questions directed at someone else) would be a stretch. Vote for ruXxar because he only bothered to try and figure out someone's alignment after making posts deflecting my questions of that person. | ||
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Can we wait until I get an answer to my question? | ||
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On June 12 2015 10:33 Oatsmaster wrote: Pretty sure that isn't how the rule works...the rule is that whoever votes for the person who claims vt is mafia. And Bats did exactly that. He hasnt been doing anything else but advising people. Also a scumtell. | ||
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On June 12 2015 10:44 Oatsmaster wrote: I had a town lean on batsnacks due to the balance between his jokes and serious reads. Since then, batsnacks has been much more serious, and his jokes are few and far between, so this read isn't valid any more.Anyway Trfel, what makes bats town? On June 12 2015 10:51 Oatsmaster wrote: (bold added)NAI is a new thing lol. I kinda like ruxxar. It was really funny that he answered a question not directed at him asking why people shouldnt answer questions not directed at them. He doesnt do it intentionally to just create content IMO. So if he doesn't do it intentionally, then why is it towny? On June 12 2015 15:03 n00bKing wrote: This point about ruXxar continuing to press the lying issue is good. I guess I judged ruXxar too early.It's also worth noting that RuXx purposely furthered the conversation about Town players lying, AFTER he saw that some other players were reacting negatively to what he had said. If a Newbie scum player saw that what he had said was causing some raised eyebrows, he might clam up or change the subject, to get beyond the comment that had raised suspicion, and bury it. Instead, he challenges the people who expressed a contradictory viewpoint, which ensures that no readers who come along later will gloss over what he's said. You could try to say that he didn't realize it was a controversial statement when he first made it. But even after it was clear to him (based on the posts of other players) that it was a controversial statement, he stuck to it, and called more attention to it. Again, I feel like this is boldness you would seldom see from an inexperienced scum player. ##unvote On June 12 2015 16:35 Rels wrote: I really don't like this post at all. Posting without having read the thread is useless, the only thing it helps with is making it look like you're doing more work that you actually are, and it detracts from scumhunting. But making a useless post after the investigation has already started is pathetic.Hello everybody, GL HF! I'll read the thread now and comment on things. See you soon. On June 13 2015 00:22 Rels wrote: Rels, what about ruXxar's post made you say this?Alright ruxxar I was unsure how to read you. But with this post I now believe you're a super excited townie. I too believe that we should not let mafia the ability to stay silent. On June 13 2015 01:10 WaveofShadow wrote: I have no idea why someone as experienced as WaveofShadow would share a potential association case while in the same post acknowledging that association cases are bad. Please explain.I can't decide now if I think geript and bats could be scum together for this horribleness. Association cases = bad but I can't help it and I THINK it's probably not the case. One of them at least for sure though. On June 13 2015 01:44 scott31337 wrote: Why does calling out the player with only one post, who needs to get replaced, make someone town? Especially because, if you are town, he called out the easiest player to pick on who happens to be confirmed town.Good day. I'm at page 16 - So far not liking N00bking for his wordy fluff - and Rels gets a slight townread (even if it's for calling out my replacement). KS and Oats feel are two townies angry at each other. Let me catch up with the rest and a through read. I really don't like batsnacks' response to the pressure on him. Batsnacks doesn't normally react like this, he's fine under pressure. In my first game playing with him, I tunneled him for basically all of Day 1 and Night 1, and he made a post telling people to stop arguing about useless things and read the case I had posted on him. I need to read some filters, but batsnacks seems very active, concerned about his safety, but not providing actual content. Third party. | ||
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1. Lots of early posts with no content, only purpose is to make it seem like he's doing stuff + Show Spoiler + 1. Completely useless "hi" post ~10 hours after the game started, not necessary at all. 2. "LOL" in response to ruXxar's contradiction, no conclusion about his alignment at all* 3. Asks a question to ruXxar (still nothing about ruXxar's alignment) 4. Says that MoosyDoosy's first post is weird* 5. Tells n00bKing not to defend ruXxar* 6. Asks a question to Sulfurus* 7. Repeats one of Oatsmaster's comments* The things with asterisks had been said by someone else before Rels commented on them. Then he (finally) posts his case on Fake)Plants. On June 12 2015 17:53 Rels wrote: And by doing this shows that all of his previous posts amount to very little.OK I finally found a mafia. There's really no reason for Rels to post like this, it serves no purpose for scumhunting or confirming his own alignment. All it does is make it look like he's doing work, but repeating things that have already been said isn't even work. 2. Makes a case on the easiest possible target + Show Spoiler + Fake)Plants only had one post. Rels just continues to talk about this post, spending many, many posts directing people back to it. He's not showing any interest in anything else that's happening. 3. Townread on ruXxar + Show Spoiler + On June 13 2015 00:22 Rels wrote: Rels thinks that ruXxar is town for making a post with no content at all. RuXxar made a post saying that MoosyDoosy's defense of himself is really good, and then Rels townreads ruXxar for this. RuXxar's inability to defend himself but willingness to jump on someone else's defense of him is extremely scummy, and reminds me of ShoCkeyy in my last game. There is absolutely no reason for Rels to townread ruXxar because of this post.Alright ruxxar I was unsure how to read you. But with this post I now believe you're a super excited townie. I too believe that we should not let mafia the ability to stay silent. So. What do you think of plants first and only post ? Furthermore, he agrees that we shouldn't let the mafia stay silent. And he does this by asking his townread about the only other read he's made in this game, and then vanishing. Not actually acting on this whatsoever. | ||
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On June 13 2015 07:19 Rels wrote: Why haven't you been asking questions to try and get reads on the people you are unsure of?Oh hey good timing. I really disagree on the easy target. I have no idea who is mafia between geript bat and moosy, if any. On the other hand the entrance post of plants was and still is super bad. And I don't care for IRL wifom, a lie is a lie. How was Fake)Plants possibly not an easy target? | ||
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On June 13 2015 07:30 Rels wrote: What about the second question?Cause the one I wanted to ask to moosy was asked by noobking, waiting for answer now. "How was Fake)Plants possibly not an easy target?" I'd really like an answer, please. | ||
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Second, Moosy, I do think that ruX could be mafia, but I feel that Rels is more likely. Though I might actually want to lynch bats instead. His quick agreement with me is unexpected, his play doesnt feel like his town meta. | ||
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On June 13 2015 08:14 batsnacks wrote: Last time I tried was the Ver game and I was right.Your case is the best most compelling thing that has been posted yet??? Also you can't meta me remember what happened last time you tried? I have learned a thing or two since my first game of mafia ever, thank you very much. | ||
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On June 13 2015 08:23 batsnacks wrote: And you only started doing this once you started getting voted, and while your posts are numerous, they don't have that much content.You don't have to believe this is my normal town meta because it's not, but you can't believe my scum meta is to post this much. I am a 1 page per day scum poster not a post more than anyone else scum poster. | ||
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On June 13 2015 08:35 MoosyDoosy wrote: Wait... what?Got you. Alright, I said this BEFORE n00bking as well, but I can read Rels as townie. Trfel's point that Rels' early posts were filler is false because Rels said he was making posts as he read. That makes that first post invalid. Trfel's second point that Rels spotted Plants as an easy target is something that I can agree with. Plants' post seemed like something a newbie would make so Rels might have been trying to take advantage of it. Trfel's third point is something that I disagree with. I'm pretty sure that ruXxar is an excited newbie unless he does something else really strange so I don't agree with the reasoning of the post. So overall, sure it might be worth looking at Rels, but definitely not worth voting for this round. 1. Of course Rels says he was making posts as he read. The fact is that we have no way to verify this, and that there is no good town motivation to do this. 2. I could understand if Rels had a scumread on ruXxar. I could understand if Rels had a townread on ruXxar. I could understand if Rels had a null read on ruXxar. I find it hard to see how Rels was unsure about ruXxar, and then ruXxar made a content-less post that showed that he can't defend himself, and then decided to townread him solidly. Also, why did you change your mind so quickly from this post: On June 13 2015 07:52 MoosyDoosy wrote: Where you seem to feel that my case is fairly good, just that you weren't quite convinced enough to vote for Rels yet?While the case Trfel seems interesting, I'm not going to vote for you quite yet. It's simple for someone to just notice suspicious stuff while reading which explains the filler before you found the post from Plants. The rest of what Trfel says is interesting tho, so I'd still count you around as a possible Mafia. | ||
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##vote batsnacks The filter length argument isn't very reliable, especially when the filter length is created after the need for it. Batsnacks' posts are made because he needs to survive. He isn't providing the additional content that would be expected for the large number of posts he's making, most of his posts don't say very much. Town batsnacks normally plays with a mixture of jokes and serious reads. At the start of this game, his posting seemed balanced in this way, but he has made only serious posts for a very long time. The reason for this seems to be that people were scumreading him for his joke posts, and so he changed his play (see here). He didn't quote his meta, or explain why this isn't scummy, or defend himself by providing increased content. He just stopped playing in a way that he normally does, and posted more in quantity. Most importantly, look at what batsnacks says about Rels. + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2015 21:44 batsnacks wrote: (responding to Rels' case on Fake)Plants)I think plant's post is scummy but I don't exactly agree with the reasons you made, especially the IRL wifom. The post comes off to me as "Blah say something obvious, forced contribution vomit." Then he includes Rels in the "idk" category of his list post here. Then I questioned batsnacks about Rels. On June 13 2015 06:56 batsnacks wrote: He made a case on plants that wasn't optimal. I thought plants was scummy for the short duration he/she was in the game but the focus of Rels' case was the excuse plants gave, which was not the scummiest part of plant's post. That has been most of Rels contribution to the game. On June 13 2015 06:57 batsnacks wrote: ebwop also Rels doesn't appear to have re-evaluated his plants read now that scott has replaced. If Rels is mafia that could be why. Then I posted my case on Rels. On June 13 2015 07:21 batsnacks wrote: gj Trfel you found mafia ##unvote ##vote Rels On June 13 2015 07:37 batsnacks wrote: In this last post, batsnacks implies that he read Rels' filter sometime in between his list post and my case on him. This makes sense, given that I specifically asked him to provide a read on Rels. The thing that I do notice is that batsnacks is implying that reading Rels' filter made him scumread him more strongly. However, looking at the posts that he made on Rels right before I posted my case, he seems rather undecided on Rels, if anything thinking that Rels is only slightly worse than null.Yes he did Trfel makes awesome cases. Also I made that list before I started reading filters. If you follow the thread you can verify that. So, Rels made a faked post that was an easy contribution. Then he didn't re-evaluate when the player he was scumreading (largely for inactivity) was replaced, and then batsnacks read Rels' filter and Rels looked scummier. But after all of this, batsnacks still doesn't even say that Rels is scummy when I asked him. But despite all of this, my case on Rels is enough to almost instantly make batsnacks vote for Rels (but only after Damdred and geript approve of it). I'm fairly comfortable with this, though I would like to see why Damdred and WaveofShadow don't want to lynch batsnacks. Sulfurus has less than a page of filter. I've been waiting for him to start playing more actively, but he just... hasn't. I'm terrible at reading newbies, and I'm terrible at trying to figure out what is bad town and what is actual scum. I'd rather lynch someone who I feel at least a little confident in reading. Sulfurus is actually putting out a decent number of reads, and with reasonable commitment. His read progression on Kickstart is logical, and since I'm pretty sure he has no experience playing with Kickstart before, I can definitely see him scumreading Kickstart but later changing his mind after seeing Kickstart play for a longer period of time (I reacted the same way to Kickstart when I first saw his play). | ||
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On June 13 2015 12:17 Sulfurus wrote:If you don't think I scumread Bats I really do I was just hesitant before because I misread him last game but now I'm sure. What makes you sure? | ||
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On June 13 2015 14:07 scott31337 wrote: What about batsnacks' posting is towny? Self-meta?So you have a couple townreads and read bats scum, is that correct? Bats is showing himself a little more townie lately, would you agree or no? Who would you like to lynch besides Bats? | ||
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On June 13 2015 14:45 scott31337 wrote: Well, town shouldn't be pocketing, they have no need for that.A lot of his posting recently- for an example Do you think this is just a pocket or he is mafia? While batsnacks' statement had the upside of pocketing, the main reason is that he needed to say that to survive. I've already explained why his scumread and vote for Rels doesn't make sense to me, especially since batsnacks is generally skeptical of my play. I just don't feel like his posting and self-meta is genuine. Anyone can post a lot, anyone can self-meta, but it's harder to make the next step and deliver a bunch of quality reads and show a clear, towny thought process. | ||
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You gave a slight townread on ruXxar, but then put him in your could lynch category. What changed? Your explanation is based on stuff that he said before you gave your slight townread on him. One more question: On June 13 2015 08:58 scott31337 wrote: What do you mean by the bolded?Batsnacks - Been on the wagon most of the day and play is different then his normal town. His last few posts have been slightly better though so that's why I haven't voted him yet. | ||
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On June 13 2015 08:54 n00bKing wrote: Sorry, I just realized that I missed this question.I agree with you that there is no good town motivation to do that. But do you also agree with me that there is actually scum motivation to NOT do that? There is some scum motivation not to do that, but there's a lot more scum motivation TO do it. A whole lot more than the town motivation, anyway. I know you are scumreading batsnacks. What do you think about Sulfurus, Rels, and scott31337? On June 13 2015 15:17 scott31337 wrote: Formatting XDBat was the wagon with three votes when I replaced out. I asked him about the voters on him, and I see more of a defensive town at the moment. A couple of my town reads agree. But anyway, it's not in batsnacks' playstyle to be defensive at all. I already shared that in my first game ever, he actually made a post drawing attention to my case on him, and later hammered himself because posting a vote on a phone was troublesome enough to make him let himself die instead. I already showed why I disagree with your example of his posting being towny. I don't understand where you are coming from. | ||
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On June 13 2015 13:56 Trfel wrote: What makes you sure? | ||
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On June 13 2015 16:00 Sulfurus wrote: Why is him not posting much alignment indicative? Why does that have any effect on who you want to lynch?Also I feel bad for saying I would lynch Damdred when he hasn't posted much. So now he isn't on my lynch list. | ||
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On June 13 2015 16:20 n00bKing wrote: It makes him look active, and makes him look like he's doing stuff. Posts without purpose.Please explain further. What is the scum motivation to do that? On June 13 2015 16:20 n00bKing wrote: Hm, okay, I'll take a look at that game then.Rels? Dunno, man. He looks a lot to me like he did in Newbie X, when he was Town. But some of the veterans in this game are seeing stuff from him they don't like. I'm not ready to try and pass judgment on Rels, I'll just have to keep watching him. On June 13 2015 18:08 Rels wrote: Your first point is technically correct, but it doesn't mean anything. It's extremely easy for mafia!batsnacks to post this as scum. One good example of this is Onegu, who was known for a long time to only claim VT as town, and never as scum. Well, one game he did it as scum. If someone has a meta that "makes" them town, it's useless unless there's an actual reason why they can't do the same thing as scum.+ Show Spoiler + I went through batsnacks past games and I have two things to share with you all. First thing On June 13 2015 09:39 batsnacks wrote: [...] Also I only provide iching commentary when I'm town so I thank you for bringing this up. That's true. I found 3 games where I did something similar, all of them town. Posts in spoiler if you're curious. + Show Spoiler + Second thing On June 13 2015 08:23 batsnacks wrote: You don't have to believe this is my normal town meta because it's not, but you can't believe my scum meta is to post this much. I am a 1 page per day scum poster not a post more than anyone else scum poster. That's not as extreme as he's saying, but it is true. In particular, look at the size of the filters of these two games. In both he got lynched D1. Can you guess in which one he was scum ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/474082-imperial-mafia?user=batsnacks http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/469267-fantasy-football-mafia-mini-2?user=batsnacks If you don't wanna play the guessing game: he has two times more post in the first game, where he was town. Conclusion By meta I don't think BS is mafia this game. ##Unvote As for the second point, again, the post quality is important, not just the quantity. Damdred's post on batsnacks is really interesting, those are things that I didn't check. However, comparing the two games that Rels linked, I don't see batsnacks fitting Damdred's description that much. Notably because while he's always been a leading wagon, it's always been very close. Looking at Imperial Mafia (town!batsnacks), I noticed that batsnacks' filter at End of Day was extremely productive and focused, and I'm not seeing that from batsnacks this game. I'll take a look at batsnacks' scum reads now. On June 14 2015 03:08 batsnacks wrote: Why does this matter? He did something generally considered to be bad, he got lynched for it, and I'd really hope he didn't do the same thing in his next game.Here are the final vote counts from the first two days of newbie X, notice how sulfurus is off doing his own thing Were his reasons for voting those people original, or sheeping others (even if not in the final vote)? | ||
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On June 12 2015 22:12 batsnacks wrote: I just saw this post......I wasn't implying that your post was forced I was implying that plants post was seemed forced. Or do you not care that I think plants post was forced? I have no idea how I missed this the first time. Batsnacks' read progression on Rels makes a lot more sense now. Maybe batsnacks really isn't the best lynch today. | ||
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On June 13 2015 06:41 geript wrote: Geript, I understand that you don't want to give away your secret read on Damdred, but I need to understand why you are saying this, at least on some level.Nah. Damdred is 100% town. He's gotten pretty easy to read. | ||
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He was lynched Day 3, with only two pages of filter. When the pressure was on him, me barely responded at all. I just don't feel comfortable reading him. It's not just trying to tell newbie from scum, the complete lack of posts makes it a complete nightmare. I'd rather take a Day 1 lynch that isn't a shot in the dark. I really would appreciate it if geript answered my question to him here. | ||
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Geript and Damdred are both playing below the level that I would expect of them. Especially now that I found that post from batsnacks, I could lynch Rels. Damdred, if you had to lynch someone right now, who would you lynch? | ||
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##vote Rels | ||
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On June 14 2015 04:13 Sulfurus wrote: Other than batsnacks, who are you scumreading?+ Show Spoiler + On June 13 2015 22:42 Damdred wrote: Yeah bats is a completely stupid lynch, here. (Never use this again bats is to smart a player) If you look at bats last scum/town games you see a few things crop up. 1) as scum once it's clear that he is going to,be one of,l the leading wagons his care factor diminishes to a few posts randomly complaining without doing anything about it or pushing his own thoughts. In comparison here he is pushing what he thinks explaining why he's town,and,not giving,up. I liked bats when I first read his filter. He keeps pushing the thread. 2) as scum, he has developed an ability to have weak scum reads to a point. Here he has well reasoned or seemingly well reasoned reasons for calling people out. 3) resorts to trolling as scum when he's caught. He's not doing this here. Bats is town, besides meta. Biggest filter, most controversial figure d1. Okish reads. Leave the bats alone This read is so bad. Like if Bats is so smart what's stopping him from changing his meta this game. It's not like he is unaware of this meta either since he spammed the thread with his 'longest filter' defense. | ||
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On June 14 2015 04:19 WaveofShadow wrote: I have several reasons to suspect them, some of which haven't been mentioned yet, but I'm not quite ready to share them. I don't want to interfere at this time, as doing so would invalidate my read.You were voting for bats right? What does you switching to rels have anything to do with damdred or geript? And you'd be lynching them only for activity if you did and not for any other reason despite people already mentioning all sorts o fthings (about geript mainly) Rels is primarily scummy for the reasons I mentioned earlier. However, the fact that he's still caught up on Fake)Plants' opening post despite saying that scott31337's posting seemed somewhat towny is really suspect to me. Immediately jumping on geript's unvoiced suspicion (despite scumreading geript) feels rather opportunistic. | ||
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On June 14 2015 04:26 MoosyDoosy wrote: My thoughts on both of these players are on the previous page. If you have any more specific questions, feel free to ask.What about Sulfurus and batsnacks? Thoughts? | ||
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On June 13 2015 07:36 Rels wrote: (referring to Fake)Plants)I was sure 100% he was mafia. Now that he got replaced that has changed. On June 13 2015 08:40 Rels wrote: Alright scott I don't see your posts as scummy. On June 13 2015 09:07 Rels wrote: Null moosy Damdred scott On June 14 2015 01:27 Rels wrote: Yo geript. If you ever remember that reason I'll be super interested, as I hated plants' only post. I don't understand this at all. He basically says that he has no reason to scumread scott31337 any more, but doesn't townread him in his list post. And then, when geript (who he was voting for at this time) mentions a reason that he moved scott31337 to null (but says that he doesn't remember the reason), Rels is extremely interested and justifies this by referring back to his initial read on Fake)Plants. The read he already said has changed. He's just jumping on something that's there, and it's hard for me to see him really trying to figure out scott31337's alignment. | ||
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On June 14 2015 04:30 MoosyDoosy wrote: Not thoughts that invalidate my reads like that Woah, Trfel, I would say it's especially important to share your thoughts if they do invalidate your reads. Otherwise we might all be bandwagoning on someone that's a fellow townie or someone who we didn't suspect was actually Mafia.  It's sort of like the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. If you make a measurement about a particle, that measurement affects whatever property you're trying to measure (sort of, anyway, I'm not very good at physics). If someone is doing something scummy and you tell them it's scummy, when they stop doing it that doesn't really help anything. If someone is doing something scummy and you sit quietly and observe, their behavior can be extremely revealing. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler [Examples] + Criticizing MoosyDoosy's opening post (geript already did this) Suspicious of batsnacks (common suspicion), geript (WaveofShadow already said this), and MoosyDoosy (geript) Agrees with the suspicion I voiced on MoosyDoosy Immediately asked geript for his reason for being suspicious of scott31337, suddenly is more suspicious of him himself (see my previous post) It seems like Rels is like a leaf in the wind, following thread sentiment, jumping on whatever works. He townreads people who are being townread already, he scumreads people who are being scumread, and only changes when the thread sentiment shifts. The one major departure from this trend is when he townreads batsnacks. He did this before Damdred jumped in. This is a pretty big change in his read, and against the thread sentiment. However, I think that the way that Rels jumps on whatever suspicion is available every other time in the thread is quite telling. | ||
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On June 14 2015 05:04 Sulfurus wrote: I don't even......If it wasn't clear I would lynch trfel and I shouldn't have ignored him just for voting bats. Do you have any REASONS for lynching me? | ||
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On June 14 2015 05:07 n00bKing wrote: I have no clue where you get this idea.This post is pitiful. Like, PITIFUL. You're completely disregarding the whole reason Rels thought FakePlants was scum to begin with. Everything in Rels' thought progression on FakePlants/scott makes sense. First, it the reason that Rels thought that Fake)Plants was scum isn't important for this argument. Rels himself said that the reason is invalidated by scott31337's replacement, and then he kept jumping back on it whenever opportunity presented itself, despite saying that scott31337's posts weren't scummy. Please explain how this makes sense. | ||
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Very interested to hear why Sulfurus thinks I am scum. | ||
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Why would geript say that Sulfurus is mafia defending town badly if he is voting for Rels (who Sulfurus is defending)? I might just sheep you on that | ||
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Wow. | ||
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On June 14 2015 05:56 geript wrote: Wow, what a compelling argument. Guys, I guess geript is town after all.I've really been trying to be much nicer when I play, but there's a serious lack a brain cells if that argument catches on. | ||
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On June 14 2015 06:02 MoosyDoosy wrote: We should definitely not talk about this.I think the better thing to discuss in terms of roles now that we're all voting for geript is finding who the doctors should save for night time. Let the blue roles decide how to use their abilities. Talking about it openly only gives scum more information, which can be extremely valuable. | ||
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I think I've only lynched scum on Day 1 once before. And never in a newbie game. | ||
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I'll take a look at geript's filter tonight, and re-evaluate. I'm just frustrated that after all that, we ended up lynching town. I really thought we were looking good. Batsnacks is still probably town. | ||
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WaveofShadow, I don't understand how a player of your caliber can just vanish before the lynch and come back after it. You even came back after the later deadline. Can you please explain this? | ||
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On June 14 2015 10:40 WaveofShadow wrote: You know enough to be around at the deadline. If you can't be around at the deadline, I expect you to say so in advance, or have a really good reason.What the fuck does 'a player of my calibre' have to do with being present in thread, even IF 'a player of my calibre' even meant anything? While I wish that even the newest players would be around for the deadline, I have different standards for newbies and for veterans. | ||
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I still feel like Rels is pretty scummy. Sulfurus is starting to look a bit worse as well. I'm having some trouble with scott31337, and Kickstart's absence is starting to be a little concerning. Damdred might also be scum. n00bKing, WaveofShadow, both are almost certainly town. MoosyDoosy is probably town. Argh, EON too fast. | ||
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The best part is that n00bKing left a very detailed legacy post. I'll make sure to read through his filter when I get a chance. | ||
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I should be able to fully catch up by tonight at the latest. | ||
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On June 14 2015 21:52 ruXxar wrote: This makes no sense to me given this post here.So first off. I'm very disappointed that the night actually started 1 hour earlier than expected. It didn't give me enough time to analyze batsnacks accusation even though it made sense when he posted it. I can't tell you his reasons for doing so, but it felt like such an improvised and irregular post that I don't know what to make of it. All game I had him as scum, and suddenly he makes this one move which totally breaks with his character so far. I can't help but feel like i've been fooled. I want to say that I should've stuck to my gut feeling and not be swayed so easily. If I disregard that one action of his, then batsnacks is still my top scumread. On June 14 2015 06:10 ruXxar wrote: Please explain. I'm more interested in this than the case on MoosyDoosy that follows.Wow bats... I'm speechless. I had you and geript as my top two scum. I refuse to believe that you would bus your own scum teammate this hard. You really redeemed yourself here in my eyes. I'll have to change my alignment of you to town and change my vote to geript. ##Unvote batsnacks ##Vote geript MoosyDoosy, I know you've explained this a few times already, but I'm not sure I understand. On June 14 2015 07:57 MoosyDoosy wrote: You made this post without knowing that geript flipped his alignment. My impression is that you are less convinced that geript is scum, and your worry for him actually being town caused you to be less convinced that Sulfurus and Rels were scum? Is this correct?Lol, I don't think anything is certain after this. getrip was fine with suspecting both Sulfurus and Rels when necessary and he even voted for both at some point. Not only that, but both Sulfurus AND Rels were two of our top suspects as Mafia. I can't shake off the feeling that getrip just really screwed up by accident and we were jumping on it for no reason. Either way, I think that everyone should look over everything again. On June 15 2015 01:29 MoosyDoosy wrote: How can you conclude that ruXxar is town based on this? If he's town, it's a bad play to bring it up because it draws attention to it. If he's scum, it's a bad play to bring it up because he would want to keep it secret and just shoot you. And I don't see anything in his tone that gives me a good read.^.^ I was hoping that someone would pick up on it and to get a solid read based on their reaction. Glad to see you're a townie with us ruXxar. On June 15 2015 01:39 ruXxar wrote: It was a strange change in behavior. However, using Bat Traps is an indicator of batsnacks being town. Batsnacks looks significantly better after that geript push, despite the result.Actually, I think there should be more discussion in general around the batsnacks trap case. Was I the only one that found it a strange change in behavior from him? Also, wow. Those points that batsnacks raised about Rels are really strong. Rels certainly has a lot to say for himself. ##vote Rels On June 15 2015 05:50 ruXxar wrote: Teams are randomized. Plus, it's best to go one lynch at a time.Here's some food for thought. So far we have scum reads on 2 mafia, Rels and Sulfu. Both are newbies. How likely do you think that all 3 mafia are in the newbie group? Would it not make sense that at least 1 mafia is part of the veteran group? People who have played previous newbie games, what is usually the distribution of mafia on newbie/veteran side? On June 15 2015 06:59 n00bKing wrote: This part of n00bKing's post is rather ironic. But I need to disagree here. N00bKing's lynch theory was hardly the most important contribution he's made to the thread, and I see no reason to believe it. There are several reasons for lynching him, one of them being that he's townread by most everyone in the game and is rather active. This is shown by people being suspicious of him during the night, and that suspicion went nowhere fast. N00bKing was almost certainly not going to be lynched this game.I don't particularly expect to be killed tonight. But just in case that happens, here's where my thoughts are at. Briefly, let's consider what it means if I do get killed. There was one post I made that I backreferenced twice, and is probably the post that would be most strongly associated with me. It was this one: I didn't have any luck whatsoever trying to get geript out of the noose, and some players (like damdred and batsnacks) have been saying that a lot of my posts can just be safely ignored. Based on all that, I don't think the scum players would kill me, to make it look like they were trying to silence me, to FRAME one of Sulfurus/batsnacks, if they were both actually town. Rather, the scum team would only kill me if my Theory was indeed correct, and one of Sulfurus/batsnacks IS scum. So remember, if the scum team kills me, the Theory is correct. We already know that I still think the Theory is correct, and I've mentioned some possible teammates for batsnacks (damdred, Moosy) if he is the bad guy in this scenario. And I said that I also had some ideas in mind about who could be possible teammates for Sulfurus, if he is the bad guy in this scenario. So here goes. The association case that n00bKing presents is very interesting, but I generally don't like association cases. I have various levels of suspicions about the people that he suspected, though. On June 14 2015 13:08 Sulfurus wrote: This read makes no sense. I didn't scumread Rels for changing his position a lot. I created a list of Rels' reads and used that as a basis for the arguments presented below, leaving the initial work there for people to check the evidence themselves. Please read more carefully.You basically said Rels his scum for changing his position a lot which isn't even alignment indicative. Like if you like at way rels changes his vote he actually does it in a very townie way giving good logic every time he's done. You on the other hand changed your vote to Geript sporadically (without even giving a read on him at any previous point in the thread) simply because Bats found a 'slip'. On June 15 2015 08:45 Sulfurus wrote: Catching ONE scum is enough of a challenge for me, much less catching multiple. If I can find someone who looks really scummy to lynch, that's about as much as I can hope for. I've been asking questions and pushing my suspicions, so I don't really understand how you can say that I've only been pushing one person.Can someone besides trfel explain to me why he is being so universally town read? I admit looking back his tunnel on rels is better then I thought but that's it. He has spent all his time on this one player and doesn't have good reads on anyone else yet multiple players have put him at the top of their townlists. On June 15 2015 09:18 Kickstart wrote: Posts like this are useless, and give me the feeling that Kickstart isn't invested in this game. He got townread, and then left for a long time. This isn't alignment indicative, but now that he's back, he isn't pushing the thread, or asking questions (which I really would expect, given how much he missed), but he's lurking and only responding when someone called for a cop check on him (right at the start of the day). Why doesn't he simply prove himself through his actions, or find scum?Cop check on me is only useful in confirming im town. I am not mafia nor is anyone really suspicious of me of being mafia from what I can tell, aside from being somewhat concerned over my afkness, cop should check someone that they think will turn up red. You are awfully concerned with what blue roles we have and what they do and you are quite wrong in what actions they should be taking. Let the blue roles play their roles and stop trying to direct them into bad plays or outing themselves. This is a huge contrast to the Kickstart at the start of the game, and the Kickstart I have seen before. And I don't like it one bit. On June 15 2015 11:18 Kickstart wrote: Wait, MORE of this? I don't understand why town!Kickstart would make these posts that don't provide any content and don't help town at all. Pure excuses, no scumhunting whatsoever.Of course me coming back after being afk looks bad, good job pointing out the obvious. Would you prefer I stayed afk? I don't need to make excuses cause it comes down to real life stuff which isn't anyone's business. Deal with it or don't. Me apologizing is because I don't think it is fair to everyone that I was afk when I am normally much more active. I should just ignore people commenting on me coming back but it annoyed me. On June 15 2015 11:38 WaveofShadow wrote: What is the mafia incentive for pushing Rels hard at times, and at other times going with other wagons? That's a lousy way to go about a bus, and if I'm scum and Rels is town, why would I keep jumping around between flipped town geript, likely town batsnacks, and assumed town Rels?Trfel - First to jump on the wake of Bat's 'discovery.' Eh. On looking through I thought he was on Rels all day and then dropped his amazing case instantly in favor of even after this post: But he was onto batsnacks as well at one point. It does kinda look as though he almost doesn't believe his own case at times because of his initial dropoff from Rels onto bats, then as bats lost ground back onto rels again and onto Geript. He does put a LOT of effort into his rels push when he is on him though so at the same time it seems doubtful that this is a half-assed push where he was just looking for an out. Not sold either on this one. Also liked his activity around the lynch and his first post after flip. Given the lackluster way geript was playing, I was suspicious of him. I didn't want to lynch him for that alone, though, because of the weekend and because of the potential risk. However, when batsnacks caught what I thought was a scumslip, this new information convinced me to lynch geript. If I didn't re-evaluate based on new information, that would be more telling. WaveofShadow, with your geript wagon analysis in mind, what do you think about ruXxar, given that you were townreading him earlier? + Show Spoiler [Quote] + On June 15 2015 11:03 WaveofShadow wrote: Lol also this moosy vs ruxxar business. I gotta say moosy you're scaring me a little because if I'm going to get burned by one of you it looks like you'd be the one. I can visibly see you improving in the middle of this game and part of me wonders if it's because you were sandbagging all along. Rels is looking pretty bad, the evidence presented by batsnacks pushes it over the top. Rels hasn't seemed at all interested in defending himself. I'm more than happy to lynch him. Kickstart is also looking quite bad. I just don't understand how a townie can be gone for many important events, then come back and only post saying that "being afk isn't alignment indicative". No scumhunting, no questions, no analysis, just excuses. I just don't know about Sulfurus any more. For scumreading me, he seems uninterested in pushing it, but he's so inactive that I'm not sure if this even applies. I just really hope that power roles or associations sort this out. Would like to see a response from Sulfurus about the flaws I've pointed out in his scumread of me. Damdred still feels off. I can't quite put my finger on it, though, beyond a few tells that are best kept to myself for now. I need to take a careful look at his filter in the near future. Also need to look more closely at MoosyDoosy, ruXxar, and Oatsmaster. | ||
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On June 16 2015 00:46 ruXxar wrote: Wait.... what???Moosy and kick then both HARD agree that I have to bus rels and sulfur as the only chance to clear my name. The amount of content that Rels put out is just insane.... and while I don't like all of his points, he does raise some good points (particularly some of the ones against scott31337). I don't really like his response to batsnacks' case, but if he is scum, it's really impressive that he would go through all that work when he seemed to be completely doomed. ##unvote | ||
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On June 16 2015 03:35 batsnacks wrote: I need to look into that some more.You should read that thing I said about ruxxar being mafia because he voted me for 99% of d1 only to sheep me hard at the last second on a town wagon for reasons that he considers bad and a mistake. Then you should vote ruxxar because he's probably the best lynch. And I'm also thinking about lynching Kickstart or scott31337. But I have some work to do now, so I can't filter dive for at least another hour or two. And I don't really like Rels' case on MoosyDoosy at all. I'm reasonably confident that MoosyDoosy is town, and Rels' reasons weren't terribly compelling. | ||
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On June 16 2015 08:03 Damdred wrote: Have you bothered to look at the order in which these events happened.Sure got busy at work. Super large bulky posts with little activity besides that. Has good posts on rel, has the lynch ready to be pushed through. Instead of pushing counterwagon jumps off instantly on bats slip case on Geript. Someone who trfel had previously scum read. Start of today immediately was like bats case good sheep. Keeps mentioning worried about me without actually doing anything. Ie basically is soft pushing. Lack of scum hunting reliance on huge posts most won't read. Looks like trfel is doing lots when,isn't.~ Batsnacks' play was getting more towny before he caught geript in the supposed scumslip. Furthermore, the fact that he pointed this out was a pretty big indicator that he was town, also showing that he used Bat Traps (was talking with scott31337 about this in hidden text that this is an indicator of him being town that was previously missing. As for long posts, give me a break. If people don't want to read my posts, then they don't deserve to hear what I have to say... I've taken care to make them readable, and there's no reason why spreading my thoughts over several posts is any better than using a single post. Admittedly my play is more sporadic than normal, and this is because I'm home from college now. Family takes precedence over mafia games. This is the second mafia game I've played in the month and a half since I came home, and the first one was on a smurf (I smurfed in an attempt to not play to the same activity and standard that I normally do). While back at school, I had the freedom to play whenever I wanted. If you want to lynch me, come up with some actual reasons, please. | ||
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On June 13 2015 02:08 scott31337 wrote: So, geript is good as scum, but is playing worse than his mafia capabilities (and also therefore worse than his town capabilities, assuming he helps town at least a little more when he's town than when he's mafia). It's simply not alignment indicative, but scott31337 uses this as an excuse to not do anything about his geript read.Geript has four posts and very little content. I know he's good as mafia - but on the scum side of null for now. On June 13 2015 07:29 scott31337 wrote: In addition to the (at the time) easy target (MoosyDoosy), he said he could lynch everyone who could be a lynch target for the day, everyone that everyone else had been suspecting. He could be credited with leaving Rels out of the "could lynch" category, but then:Who I'm liking so far - Wave Trfel n00bKing Damdred Oats Probably wouldn't lynch today - Rels Kickstart Could Lynch - Batsnacks Geript MoosyDoosy Sulfurus RuXxar On June 14 2015 05:13 scott31337 wrote: So, nope.I can get aboard this and feeling better then a Sulf lynch - you pulled a lot of work Trfel. You the man! Reading through his filter, he only twice provided analysis on a player that is longer than one sentence. Combine that with how unoriginal he's been and how he's been willing to lynch everyone who might possibly be lynched, and he looks pretty scummy. I'm used to scott31337 being much more willing to go his own way and explain why. I feel like I kind of got pocketed when he pointed out the Bat Traps thing to me in url code earlier. It was a good point, but he never acted on it. I wish I had noticed sooner. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + Kickstart 1. Early posts don't attempt to provide reads + Show Spoiler + (first post in thread excluded as it obviously couldn't contain a read) On June 12 2015 08:14 Kickstart wrote: Liers means if you say you are going to do something but don't when it comes to forum mafia. Also good job breaking one of my rules, you answered a question directed at me! On June 12 2015 08:15 Kickstart wrote: But I might give you points for answering it correctly. Maybe. Probably not. On June 12 2015 08:16 Kickstart wrote: Also lol@ruxxar not finding the jokey first posts 'genuine enough'. You so silly. or scum. Ill let you decide which it is. On June 12 2015 08:17 Kickstart wrote: Oh also, dont forget that you have to 'actually' vote in the other thread. Generally you still say it here as well though so that people are sure to read it. On June 12 2015 08:19 Kickstart wrote: Day1 just at game start association cases are bad. Especially when I'm not scum. On June 12 2015 08:21 Kickstart wrote: And there are 3 mafia, 10 town. There are probably blue roles and possibly mafia roles but this we do not know, only the possibility that there is. On June 12 2015 08:29 Kickstart wrote: I'm joking with him it means nothing. His statement was silly and scummy, I said I would let him decide which one he wants us to classify it as. (hint: I think it is mildly scummy). On June 12 2015 10:08 Kickstart wrote: I've explained the no lying thing, read please. If you say you will do something do it - that is what is generally meant in forum mafia about lying. If you say " I will give my reads at such and such time", then you better do it, etc etc. On June 12 2015 10:09 Kickstart wrote: And town shouldn't really lie anyways. I don't know how ruxxar got in his mind that this game is about lying all over the place. Towns job is to not lie and be open and honest, only people that need to be thinking about lying this early are scum, save for some rare situations. On June 12 2015 10:17 Kickstart wrote: What case. The only case is that ruxxar misunderstood everything I said. Just an fyi, I will tunnel people to hell and back who willfully misrepresent what I say. Ask Oats. Whenever he decides to show up that is. On June 12 2015 10:18 Kickstart wrote: Look at how long it takes him to really start providing reads. For a very long time he's commenting but not going the next step of taking a stance on someone's alignment. So while he is posting, he actually isn't doing anything to move the game forward. It's best to make reads to at least get the game startedRuxxar is looking most scummy and sulfurus needlessly hoping on me as well is suspicious. Especially when he cites a non existent case as the reason. It's possible that he is simply holding some reads back, but simply scumreading ruXxar and Sulfurus suggests the opposite to me. He doesn't seem all that interested in scumreading, especially for his large volume of posts. 2. Terrible behavior since his return + Show Spoiler + Excuses, complaining, responding whenever someone scumreads him with "inactivity isn't alignment indicative". But no scumhunting, no questions, no content. He's willing to read the thread and say "this scumread of me is stupid" but not scumhunt. On June 16 2015 09:25 MoosyDoosy wrote: I have expectations for scott31337, and expectations for Kickstart. And neither of them are meeting these expectations.I feel it's similar to behavior from Sulfurus and Kickstart. All three promise to post more and provide more content on some level but always give little content, end up on wagons, and disappear for some lengths of time unless directly referred to. | ||
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On June 16 2015 09:28 batsnacks wrote: He just asked me what I thought about the fact that you hadn't used Bat Traps in this game. I responded saying that you generally only use Bat Traps as town, and that this was a good find.I cba to go looking through scott's filter for URL code could you maybe just paste all his secrets in the thread? I feel like that's an important part of what I'm trying to understand. | ||
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On June 16 2015 09:33 batsnacks wrote: If he's town, presumably to make sure that if you were scum, you wouldn't see it and then use a Bat Trap?Well he's right. Why bother to say this to you in code though? Was he defending me from you when I had votes or something? Alternatively, he could have just done that to pocket me.... and it worked, darn it. | ||
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On June 16 2015 09:39 batsnacks wrote: It was while I was voting for you, and while scott31337 was not.Trfel what was the timeframe for this? Was this d1 before you voted me? d1 after you voted me? d1 after you unvoted me? It would help a lot if you could quote the actual posts. I guess you're right, it's not really important. Kickstart is probably a better lynch. I just got really mad at the thought of getting pocketed like that. Would still like to see a response from scott31337, though, as he certainly isn't cleared. I need to go, I'll look through ruXxar's filter tonight. | ||
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Reading through ruXxar's filter now. If anyone wants to talk about anything, just let me know. | ||
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On June 16 2015 16:27 Rels wrote: This is a true statement, however I think his reduced activity makes it seem worse (he has less ability to push the thread where he wants it to go). Though he hasn't done this in the times where he has had a chance to.Hello (= Can you confirm that the way Kickstart changes opinion is super opportunistic ? Read his filter from his vote to me to the end. | ||
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1. Excuses instead of scumhunting + Show Spoiler + I've said this before. I can't emphasize how important this is. He's been lurking and posting "I'm not scum, I'm a mislynch" instead of explaining why he isn't scum or doing actual scumhunting. This isn't a townie mindset at all. 2. Inconsistency with regards to cop check on himself + Show Spoiler + On June 15 2015 09:18 Kickstart wrote: Cop check on me is only useful in confirming im town. I am not mafia nor is anyone really suspicious of me of being mafia from what I can tell, aside from being somewhat concerned over my afkness, cop should check someone that they think will turn up red. You are awfully concerned with what blue roles we have and what they do and you are quite wrong in what actions they should be taking. Let the blue roles play their roles and stop trying to direct them into bad plays or outing themselves. On June 16 2015 08:07 Kickstart wrote: Hm, what caused the change? He says that a cop check on himself is bad because he is town, but then says that he shouldn't be lynched until he gets cop checked.Ill be a misslynch guys, if you are that concerned wait for a cop check or something. Should just lynch sulfurus like you were supposed to day 1. ##Unvote ##Vote Sulfuras I don't think I should need to say why this is incorrect, but here goes anyway: 1. If he is in fact town, the cop check comes back green, and it's generally not good for the cop to claim a green check 2. There might not even be a cop 3. Imagine if everyone was given the right to wait for a cop check instead of getting lynched This isn't townie at all, he's making reasons to not lynch him that he knows are bad and that he already directly contradicted. 3. Read progression + Show Spoiler + On June 15 2015 07:17 Kickstart wrote: This is Kickstart's first post back. And he didn't give a single reason for these reads.Originally was suspicious mainly of ruxx and sulf. Sulf still scummy ruxx not so much. Hate to just come in and agree with thread sentiment but rels is scummy as well. Tbh I just skimmed through most of the EoD and the night stuff though. On June 15 2015 07:18 Kickstart wrote: Adds a vote on Rels.meant to go ahead and vote. ##Vote Rels On June 16 2015 08:07 Kickstart wrote: And then he switched his vote to Sulfurus, with no reason at all? What happened to Rels?Ill be a misslynch guys, if you are that concerned wait for a cop check or something. Should just lynch sulfurus like you were supposed to day 1. ##Unvote ##Vote Sulfuras His wagon lost momentum. But Kickstart doesn't say why he doesn't want to lynch Rels any more, he doesn't say why Sulfurus is scummy until much later. He's not interested in actually pushing Sulfurus, but complaining about getting lynched for false reasons and inactivity. I don't see him being interested in catching scum. His read on ruXxar doesn't make any sense. It's in these two posts. On June 16 2015 11:08 Kickstart wrote: The people who are extremely interested in starting this wagon on me are damdred and ruxxar it seems. Damdred I don't know how to read because he did this same retarded shit last game and was town so I don't know. Ruxxar has been scummy all game. Going through Ruxxars filter he is literally all over the place. From weird asoociated cases that make no sense, to saying sulfuras is scum to then saying if sulfuras flips red town can go ahead and lynch him next (first he is sure sulf is scum then few posts later he is sure he is town). It doesn't make any sense. Parts of his filter seem reasonable but then others he is just way out there. Checked to see if there were any shenanis from him around the grept lynch but his vote is just as weird as anyone elses. He did a complete 180 on his bats read though but not sure that indicates much. On June 16 2015 11:11 Kickstart wrote: "So, ruXxar is scummy for all of these reasons. Oh wait, but this could also be a new town player. Sulfurus is scum though because I don't feel he's a new town player trying to figure things out."ebwop: should clarify that while ruxxar being all over the place is concerning, I think it could also be typical of a new town player trying to figure things out. So while some of his actions are suspect, I think sulfurus has been more scummy in that I dont get that same feeling from his posting. ..... That said, his read on Oatsmaster isn't inherently bad, though I disagree with it. ##vote Kickstart | ||
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Trfel
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I'll re-evaluate him more closely when I get a chance, but Kickstart is far and away the best lynch John Williams  | ||
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On June 16 2015 17:09 Rels wrote: I was writing this answer, then realized I got a bit long-winded. Spoilered for those who aren't interested.Alright most people are in the US and sleeping so let's not circlejerk about KS and talk about something else. I you agree, I would like to have your opinion on this post of mine: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486978-newbie-student-mafia-xi?page=57#1139 + Show Spoiler [Answer to Rels] + Haha, well first, I'm in the US.... Should probably go to bed sometime myself XD Anyway, I'm somewhat suspicious of scott31337 myself. As to your reasons for scott31337 and MoosyDoosy being scum, I disagree. First, despite n00bKing being a flipped town, and their statement that they liked his analysis, that doesn't mean they have to follow it exactly. N00bKing's post was based on a faulty premise, that our two main wagons some time before the Day 1 lynch contained one scum, therefore Sulfurus was scum. The real contribution that n00bKing provided was the unflipped association case, which while good, is still an unflipped association case and therefore is unreliable. In the same way, scumreading MoosyDoosy and scott31337 for this reason suffers from unflipped association (relies on Sulfurus being mafia). If there's something scummy about these votes, this isn't why. Furthermore, mafia simply won't be able to get away with choosing their targets based on a dead townie's post, as doing so is terrible and ignores a ton of information that's filled the thread since then. For example, you've started looking a ton more townie since n00bKing made this post. However, Sulfurus doesn't seem likely to put up a lot of resistance to being lynched due to his inactivity. So there is mafia motivation to lynch someone else and then Sulfurus later, though this wouldn't be based on n00bKing's post. | ||
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On June 16 2015 17:30 Rels wrote: Yeah, I'll definitely need to look at scott31337 Day 3 as well.Alright TY. It's true that it is super weak. I agree that them utilizing noobking's post is NAI at best. But what I'm suspicious of is that they both looked like they wanted to jump on my wagon at any cost at the start of the day. I also made a case on scott, but for now KS is scummier. I'll update my scott case day 3 to see if I still want to lynch him or no. Anyway, I'm getting really sleepy, not sure I'm much more help here. See you guys tomorrow. | ||
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If there's anything anyone wants to talk to me about, I'd really appreciate it if you brought it up before then. | ||
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On June 17 2015 01:54 Kickstart wrote: This post is the worse of the two he just posted, though the other is pretty awful as well.Now looked at Trfels case and it is ridiculous as well. Same point about being afk and coming back and going with sentiment. Fine, that I am guilty of. The idea what I've said nothing about ruxxar and sulfurus is ridiculous as I was the first to push them both and call them scummy day 1. I suggest you go re read it instead of making shit up about me never mentioning them. The cop check thing I'm not even serious about. I think this is a ridiculous lynch attempt on me, and I just proposed that if someone is cop and was truly concerned about me they could check me. Turns out that we could have a godfather so that doesn't even matter. For anyone to propose that I am the optimal lynch today is in my mind an attempt to throw town off. First of all there are no strong scum reads or cases on me. The ones put forth all revovle around what I did once I came back from being afk for well over a day, if you can't see why someone would behave as I did after that then you aren't thinking clearly. There are targets much scummier than me. Ask yourself what happens if I get lynched and flip green? You have waisted an entire cycle on a ridiculous lynch and you will have gotten absolutely no information. And you won't even have an easy time sorting out the town from the scum on my wagon because they both will pull the same bullshit the moment I flip 'Oh well guess he was town after all, too bad he shouldn't have afked". And that is where town will be, with nothing gained. Furthermore, by now Kickstart played less than half of the game before going afk. And instead of defending himself, he just says to ignore everything that's happened and only look at the first portion of Day 1. Any discussion of his alignment would be flawed if it did not mention what he's done since returning. Seven minutes before this post, Kickstart posted this: On June 17 2015 01:47 Kickstart wrote: So yes, his cop check comment was definitely a joke.I proposed cop check if you were actually worried about me, but still your only points are that I was afk and then came back to the thread, which is fucking awful as it is in no way alignment indicative. I'm happy with this lynch. | ||
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On June 17 2015 02:44 Damdred wrote: On the contrary.Like if you want to lynch ks ok... But everyone is clamering to the cop check point and its a bad point and doesn't make anyone acum O-o It shows that Kickstart is willing to do anything to survive. If he's town, here's what he did:
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On June 17 2015 03:18 Damdred wrote: No townie would make 1st post saying not to lie, scumread some1 for disagreeing, then lie.So basically no towny would ever do this? And he's made several reads some in a list post obviously. But this doesn't make someone scum. The cop check point isn't the best | ||
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On June 17 2015 03:27 Damdred wrote: Townies do this all the time. town lies more than mafia. Why? They aren't as careful with what they say. so no that doesn't make someone scum i g2g for a bit but if town fabricates reasons for scumread on some1 i have no words | ||
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On June 17 2015 03:33 Damdred wrote: If he thinks that it is acceptable for town to sometimes lie, then he cannot scumread ruXxar for saying this. This was the main part of his case on ruXxar.I don't see how that's fabricated at all, you can make a statement, scum read someone and then contradict yourself I see it all the time On June 17 2015 03:57 Sulfurus wrote: Wait, what? I don't understand this at all....Sorry if I didn't make myself clear but this is the exact problem I was trying to fix. You see Oats is mafia but not the one you have been looking for because you guys have been too tunnel visioned on Kicks. Anyway I still think Kicks is mafia and will switch my vote to him to save a town but if there is a mafia we will lose to it will probably be Oats On June 17 2015 04:54 Rels wrote: This isn't a townie post, this is what people have been begging Kickstart to do all day. People have been like "Kickstart if you are town, do this." And only now does he say "I'm going to do this." There's no reason he can't fake this post as mafia. It doesn't mean anything unless he actually follows through.I can see why everybody is starting to switch. This post screams townie. But what's happening right now seems like mafia doing a last minute switch, especially at a time when the two people doing cases on kickstart (Trfel and me) said they weren't going to be around for deadline. On June 17 2015 05:50 MoosyDoosy wrote: This isn't very towny at all...Do I have anything new to come up with? No, because I like being consistent unlike a certain someone whose viewpoint changes with every couple of posts they make. Kickstart's post is decent enough, though. Maybe there's more to his Oatsmaster read than I thought initially, I've always had a hard time reading Oatsmaster. His inactivity is all across the board, and he's almost always extremely aggressive and scumreads people without stating his reasons all the time. I'll lynch Sulfurus here, I suppose. Kickstart's post is good enough to buy him some time, at least. I really don't think that lynching ruXxar is a good idea, I just get the feeling that he's town from his filter. He's putting in a lot of effort and I can generally see where he's coming from. ##vote Sulfurus | ||
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On June 17 2015 06:39 Rels wrote: One thing I noticed in Kickstart's post that I really liked is how his reads often fit an OMGUS perspective, however he openly acknowledged that and you could see how he tried to avoid it. That looked fairly towny, and also hard to fake.OK if even Trfel votes Sulfu, I suppose KS is not going to be the lynch today. I still think Sulfu is town. He wouldn't have hard defended me if he was mafia last day. I still think KS is mafia. One big post one hour before the deadline is not enough to make me change my mind. Especially since there is no summary of any cases, it's a lot of words to say very few reasons. Good reasons, but very few for the size of the posts. I'll just hope I'm wrong. Kickstart's tone changed significantly from the moment where the pressure on him backed off a little, but I'm not sure that is alignment indicative. Either way, with those really strange posts from Sulfurus a few hours back, I'd rather lynch him for now. | ||
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On June 17 2015 06:47 batsnacks wrote: I just don't think there's enough time.Shenanies onto scott? | ||
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So relieved now. | ||
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(note: all vote counts except the final vote count are unofficial, created by me) Vote Count #1 Rels (6): MoosyDoosy, scott31337, ruXxar, Damdred, Kickstart, ruXxar (1): batsnacks Sulfurus (1): WaveofShadow Vote Count #2 (Rels wagon loses votes) Rels (2): MoosyDoosy, ruXxar (1): batsnacks Sulfurus (1): WaveofShadow MoosyDoosy (1): ruXxar Vote Count #3 (Kickstart wagon starts) Kickstart (4): Sulfurus (3): ruXxar (1): batsnacks, Oatsmaster (1): Sulfurus Rels (0): MoosyDoosy (0): Vote Count #4 (Sulfurus wagon) Kickstart (5): Sulfurus (6): ruXxar (0): Oatsmaster (0): Rels (0): MoosyDoosy (0): After this, scott31337 switched from Kickstart to Sulfurus, and then the day ended. The wagon on Rels started fairly quickly in the day. When the wagon lost steam (vote count #2), things looked very open. The Kickstart wagon started, but only reached a maximum of five votes. There were only a few hours where the Kickstart wagon seemed significantly larger than the Sulfurus wagon. Assuming for the moment that Kickstart is scum and Rels is town, that means that mafia had an early mislynch set up, but lost the momentum. And there was about a full day in between when the Rels wagon started to lose steam and when the Sulfurus wagon really started. Looking at the Day 1 voting, Sulfurus was almost always (before the geript push) a top contender to be lynched. Given the frequency I've seen scum lynched on Day 1 (once in my mafia career), I don't feel like scum has that much thread presence. And if Kickstart is scum with Sulfurus, that means that there was only one scum buddy who would have been there in the time in question to create a new push (after the Rels push died down). And even so, this just isn't realistic. So Kickstart is very likely town here. This makes the Sulfurus wagon look really pure. Kickstart (again), Damdred, and WaveofShadow look pretty good. Batsnacks is looking quite towny this game already, and MoosyDoosy's vote is yet another point in his favor. Scott31337 switched after the outcome was clear, so his vote does not count for him. Due to how close the lynch was, it feels like scum had a lot of force on Kickstart. Rels and ruXxar look a little more suspicious here, but Oatsmaster and scott31337 look a lot worse. While it's possible that Damdred and/or WaveofShadow are scum here, it feels very unlikely. I'll be back with more analysis tonight. Good work! | ||
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On June 17 2015 07:47 Trfel wrote: Just caught an error here, whoops. The final vote count is ALSO unofficial. Sorry for any confusion.(note: all vote counts except the final vote count are unofficial, created by me) | ||
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On June 17 2015 09:38 Oatsmaster wrote: Genuinely interested here, why not?Yea OK I don't agree with that trfel. | ||
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Wheeee!!! Keep in mind the Day 2 voting analysis I posted here. Analysis of Sulfurus' Filter + Show Spoiler + Willing to vote for Kickstart early on, suggests that Kickstart is town Says that he would lynch Damdred Voted for batsnacks Rels town Would lynch Trfel Vote on Oatsmaster (final list post ignored due to WIFOM) This suggests to me that Damdred is town and batsnacks is town, and also Kickstart town. It seems to hint at Rels being scummy. I don't think it says anything about Oatsmaster, because the wagons between Sulfurus and Kickstart were about even at this point. It looked fairly bad for Sulfurus here, so his vote on Oatsmaster isn't very useful (if he was really trying to stay alive, he would have voted for Kickstart, who he was comfortable scumreading). scott31337 Day 1 Voting Analysis + Show Spoiler + Vote Count batsnacks (6): n00bKing, ruXxar, Oatsmaster, Sulfurus, Rels, Trfel Sulfurus (4): Kickstart, geript, batsnacks, WaveofShadow Not Voting: MoosyDoosy, Damdred, scott31337 This is the situation when scott31337 places his vote. He voted for Sulfurus here. At the time of his vote, there was a little less than 20 hours left in Day 1. His vote for Sulfurus here doesn't actually mean that much. There's a lot of time left in the day, and it's likely that many people will switch votes. Still, his vote on Sulfurus leaves batsnacks in the vote lead, and when Sulfurus flips, it makes him look better. The only reason that mafia!scott31337 wouldn't want to vote for Sulfurus here is in case his vote ends up making the difference and he doesn't have an excuse to switch. On June 13 2015 14:45 scott31337 wrote: He said this to me in BBCode. There's something that he can use as an excuse to switch to batsnacks later. He says this before the Rels wagon started.He has not laid any of his battraps though, which makes me wonder, he almost always does this as town. Vote Count Sulfurus (5): Kickstart, batsnacks, WaveofShadow, scott31337, MoosyDoosy Rels (3):: Trfel, Damdred, geript batsnacks (3): n00bKing, ruXxar, Sulfurus geript (2): Rels, Oatsmaster The Rels wagon is gaining steam and the batsnacks wagon is dying. It looks like the lynch will come down to Sulfurus and Rels, and it looks fairly close. Here, scott31337 switched to Rels from Sulfurus, bringing them to four votes each. The reason: On June 14 2015 05:13 scott31337 wrote: What has he said about Rels before this?I can get aboard this and feeling better then a Sulf lynch - you pulled a lot of work Trfel. You the man! On June 13 2015 01:44 scott31337 wrote: Good day. I'm at page 16 - So far not liking N00bking for his wordy fluff - and Rels gets a slight townread (even if it's for calling out my replacement). KS and Oats feel are two townies angry at each other. Let me catch up with the rest and a through read. On June 13 2015 07:29 scott31337 wrote: (rest of list post omitted)Probably wouldn't lynch today - Rels On June 13 2015 07:37 scott31337 wrote: KS and Rels are playing a lot different then my last game with either of them, which makes me wonder. Given how his post before switching to Rels, he said this: On June 14 2015 04:11 scott31337 wrote: It seems like he was preparing to look good for bussing Sulfurus, but left himself an out to vote for batsnacks if necessary, and then decided to join the Rels wagon when he had a chance. This feels rather scummy.Why does this just scream "save sulfurus" for some reason to me? Day 2 Voting Analysis + Show Spoiler + Along with Sulfurus, scott31337 voted for Kickstart to bring the wagons to Kickstart with five votes and Sulfurus with six. Despite this being close, it became clear that Sulfurus was going to be lynched, so scott31337 switched votes to Sulfurus. On June 17 2015 06:49 scott31337 wrote: And he's well aware that Sulfurus flipping red makes him look bad.If Sulf is mafia then I'll look like shit Trfel is my believer and WoS is my believer they want Sulf dead Sulf isn't doing shit Let's go Sulf then fuhq it I think this is pretty obvious. Read Progression + Show Spoiler + On June 13 2015 02:08 scott31337 wrote: He scumreads geript here, but uses the reason that geript is good at mafia to weaken his argument. As a result, he doesn't push this at all (and it would be hard to push geript, because he is a strong player).Geript has four posts and very little content. I know he's good as mafia - but on the scum side of null for now. He also scumreads MoosyDoosy and batsnacks, back when MoosyDoosy was a very easy target and batsnacks was scumread by most people. On June 13 2015 01:44 scott31337 wrote: It makes no sense whatsoever for town!scott31337 to townread Rels for scumreading the person he replaced for his one post. Assuming that scott31337 is town, he townreads Rels for scumreading someone who scott31337 knows is town and was only able to make one (useless) post. There is no reason whatsoever that Rels should get a townread for this. To me, this feels like scott31337 is attempting to pocket Rels, which makes sense given that Rels would naturally be suspicious of him after the replacement. His explanation here adds that he townread Rels for strongly believing this case, but mafia!Rels has no reason NOT to push his case so strongly because he knows that Fake)Plants is town (thus an easy mislynch) and that he almost certainly won't provide strong resistance.Good day. I'm at page 16 - So far not liking N00bking for his wordy fluff - and Rels gets a slight townread (even if it's for calling out my replacement). KS and Oats feel are two townies angry at each other. Let me catch up with the rest and a through read. On June 13 2015 02:27 scott31337 wrote: Slight townread on ruXxar. Then he doesn't mention ruXxar for a while, until:This is Rexxar's best post. The goosebumps part sounds so legitimate and would be extremely creative to fake from the posts he made earlier. Slight town read On June 13 2015 07:29 scott31337 wrote: Including basically everyone who could be lynched today in the "Could Lynch" category. Again, note that he ends up voting for Rels, despite having included him in the "Probably wouldn't lynch today" category, the only reasons being sheeping me and this post:Who I'm liking so far - Wave Trfel n00bKing Damdred Oats Probably wouldn't lynch today - Rels Kickstart Could Lynch - Batsnacks Geript MoosyDoosy Sulfurus RuXxar On June 13 2015 07:37 scott31337 wrote: KS and Rels are playing a lot different then my last game with either of them, which makes me wonder. Finally, he's always saying he could lynch geript, without actually pushing it or doing anything about it. When the votes finally switched to geript, and scott31337 switched his own vote to geript, he didn't say anything whatsoever. I need to move on, I'm running out of time, but I'm pretty confident that scott31337 is mafia. Oatsmaster Day 1 Reads + Show Spoiler + Day 1 Suspicions: batsnacks Kickstart n00bKing (later votes) geript Sulfurus and geript Damdred Day 1 Townreads geript ruXxar n00bKing Rels He's really not offering townreads, and he's throwing a LOT of suspicion around. This isn't necessarily alignment indicative, as town!Oatsmaster loves to throw suspicion around. However, his stance on Sulfurus is very suspicious. On June 13 2015 11:11 Oatsmaster wrote: if bats flips town, ill be going after sulfurus. On June 13 2015 18:40 Oatsmaster wrote: I would lynch geript if we don't lynch bats. Finally, the voting analysis of Day 1 looks suspicious. He was hard scumreading batsnacks for a very long time, and eventually the votes went to batsnacks at 6, and Sulfurus at 4. Then Rels unvoted, and it looked like the batsnacks wagon was going to collapse. Instead of waiting for Sulfurus (who he already said he would lynch after batsnacks), Oatsmaster stayed around and waited until it looked like there was a good chance of a geript wagon, and then voted geript and went to sleep. While he did townread Rels, he did this before the push on Rels began. This is Oatsmaster trying to save Sulfurus, but not looking bad if he flips. Concluding List Post! Town Kickstart batsnacks WaveofShadow Probably Town Rels (despite Sulfurus association) MoosyDoosy Damdred Dunno (need to read his filters again) ruXxar Mafia Lean Oatsmaster Mafia scott31337 | ||
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That stings. But scott31337 still needs to die. ##vote scott31337 | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 18 2015 07:04 scott31337 wrote: Are you talking to me?GG Moosy I'm not mafia though - I haven't been liking Oats for quite a bit and I agree with the Sulfurus comments you said. Unless someone comes with some crazy post, Sounds like a good start. Ruxx looks SLIGHTLY better but... Do you have any questions for me bud I could shine some clarification on? If so, please let me know if I missed anything in my case on you at the top of this page. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 18 2015 07:27 scott31337 wrote: As for your townread of Rels, I saw that explanation and I referred to it in my post. Again, there is no reason whatsoever that you would townread Rels as town. Rels' scumread of Fake)Plants was almost all of his filter by the point when you posted this. If not for his scumread of Fake)Plants (which is still what your post reads like to me), what were you townreading Rels for?So the first part, is when I townread Rels, I wrote what I meant incorrectly. I wasn't townreading him for calling out my replacement, I was townreading him even if he called out my replacement. I posted this a little bit later. For the vote, KS was looking a bit better, and yes I was a bit unsure. I only had about 20 minutes. I went with the right decision. I've been scumming Sulf for most of the game - I voted for him day 1 for a tie breaker. I admit, my vote was late and didn't swing what would happen anyway. It's also after sulf flipped I saw what might be coming "inb4 scott bussed sulfurus" - I didn't have much time. Moosy (our dead doctor) saw the above as well, including the vote. As for you scumreading Sulfurus all game, you didn't mention that at all when you switched. On June 17 2015 06:43 scott31337 wrote: Grrr I haven't like KS all game - his wall of text isn't that great but it's something....I like who's on Sulfurs better, but the last three times I've used that suggestion, Its because the mafia were on the other side and enough townies on the ML anyway I'm going with KS. On June 17 2015 06:49 scott31337 wrote: If Sulf is mafia then I'll look like shit Trfel is my believer and WoS is my believer they want Sulf dead Sulf isn't doing shit Let's go Sulf then fuhq it On June 17 2015 06:50 scott31337 wrote: You didn't mention any actual reasons that Sulfurus is scummy at all.Fuck that Ninja Sulfurus it is I'm not switching again Battraps(tm) On June 18 2015 07:35 ruXxar wrote: Sorry, I'll get to you soon enough. Last isn't always least!Trfel: why do you never read my filter? I feel kinda disappointed that you had no opinion of me .On June 18 2015 09:27 WaveofShadow wrote: Assuming that scott31337 is mafia, he replaced into the game late, and Sulfurus was one of his teammates. Neither of them had very much thread presence at all. With batsnacks posting so much and being willing to defend himself, even with scott31337's vote pushing batsnacks ahead 7 to 4, the batsnacks wagon was still likely to lose steam. But it does feel somewhat risky from a mafia mindset, and this is EXACTLY why he left himself an out to switch to batsnacks. If the batsnacks train collapsed, scott31337 comes out looking pretty good (smooth bus), and if there's a chance, he could have switched wagons and probably would have been largely unscathed.K reading through Trfel's scott post in greater detail---I agree with the fact that the amount of time left in the day means the Sulfurus vote doesn't mean a lot on the surface, but you have to consider the mafia mindset. What scummer is going to actively place a teammate in the running when he would previously have been under no threat? Why risk it at that point ESPECIALLY when it's so early? For potential towncred in a situation when we discuss it exactly like this? I would argue the potential towncred gained is no even remotely worth the risk, especially to a typical scummer, not to mention considering he barely discusses sulfurus at all he doesn't deserve a great deal of towncred for that swap to begin with. The D2 voting analysis is sorta meh, I admit it doesn't make him look amazing but I think D1 trumps this a little. Given the way he readily jumped off of the wagon at a potentially key moment, I don't feel like scott31337 put Sulfurus in much additional danger at all on Day 1. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 19 2015 03:42 batsnacks wrote: And what prevents newer mafia players from defending townies from aggressive/abrasive scum players because they know that their arguments are false?Sulfur's strategy d1 is getting on my wagon asap and townreading the other people who voted and stayed on my wagon. Sulfur is "rewarding" n00b and ruxxar with town reads because they are pushing an agenda that benefits him. Sulfur does not need to reward his scum mates to get them to push his agenda, they do it for free. K now I'm about to possibly get controversial. Re-reading sulfur's filter again, oats is town. I will show you why with sulfur's oats case: Look where sulfur says oats is discrediting n00b and Rels townie posts. Sulfur is defending their posts from the big bad bully oats. Newer mafia players do this a lot as scum; they defend townies from aggressive/abrasive town players and scum read them because they believe that the abrasive townie's attitude will make them easier to mislynch. They believe they are earning town points from saving other townie's from the bully. This also implies that Rels is town. On June 19 2015 04:36 batsnacks wrote: Despite your conclusion, this is a bad argument.I just remembered that sulfur hard defended Rels and rux from trfel d1. This is very likely a case of sulfur defending town from town, which he also did with oats and Rels/n00b. If Trfel is mafia sulfur is not going to hard defend two townies from him. Scott/Damdred final answer. On June 19 2015 05:40 Rels wrote: There's only two mafia left, and since this assumes that scott31337 is mafia, then there's only one other. Honestly, I feel like scott31337 is being more and more obviously mafia as the day goes, and I don't really see how scum could defend him here.Last thought of the day: this push is too easy. So easy. There is 6 people voting scott, and WOS was here and did nothing to interrupt that: so that's 7 people out of 9, and 2 mafia left. Statistically, there is at least one mafia on these 7, who is currently is not doing anything to make the thread move. And I can apply this theory for the whole day. Almost nothing happened, and scott was the most likely train from the very beginning. I know for a fact ruxx and Oats were here and did nothing, for example. So to me everybody is happy with the lynch going this way: town 'cause scott is super scummy, AND mafia. So it seems that the mafia team is happy with scott going down. It can mean: - scott is not defendable - scott is townie On June 19 2015 08:39 scott31337 wrote: Scott31337 is ignoring the points I've brought against him. He happily omits switching off of Sulfurus to vote for Rels, and how he provided no original reasons for voting for Rels and for geript. He keeps saying how he voted for Sulfurus at a pivotal moment, when it really wasn't that crucial (especially knowing that he and Sulfurus didn't have much thread presence, thus lacked ability to move the lynch effectively). Once again he makes activity excuses, and says that his vote looked bad.I am glad you are thinking about this option - It always has made me wonder when a lynch comes too easily without defense. In six games, I have never bussed before, but everyone thinks I'm the bus master. I explained my voting reasons before, but I'll try again - I was on Sulfurus at a pitoval point on Day 1 - but then I saw Batsnacks case and it made a lot of sense, and I voted for it. A regret now (plus among the hour being earlier then anyone thought) which sucked. For day 2 - I was in my other mafia game (Guardians) and thought this game would be over already, but it was not - it continued for another day and I was almost able to pull off a victory from triple lylo - but I was unable to - I did reading in this thread as well, posted about Oats, read about KS's comeback - and had about twenty minutes to vote. I picked KS at first, and then my top towns were on Sulfurus, so I switched votes. You're right, it looks kinda bad - I guess even worse if I left my vote on KS - Oats and Rels did. But he's dodging the facts, and he's being inconsistent in his defense. When he actually switched to Sulfurus Day 2, his posts clearly show that he was voting with his top towns and with just because Sulfurus was ninja voting, he didn't bring up any actual reasons to suspect Sulfurus at all. Last time he explained his vote switch at the end of Day 2, he added the line "I've been scumming Sulf for most of the game", which wasn't something he mentioned at all when he actually switched votes. And now he didn't bring that up in his latest explanation of the vote switch. I'm really not sure about people scumreading Damdred. I've scumread Damdred the last few games I've played, and really it's just made the games an unfriendly yelling match (and he's always been town). From what I've seen of Damdred this game, he's been a bit underwhelming but he still feels towny, primarily for the way he pushed Sulfurus. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
Vote Count 1 batsnacks (3): n00bKing, ruXxar, Oatsmaster ruXxar (1): Trfel Sulfurus (1): Kickstart Fake)Plants (1): Rels Vote Count 2 batsnacks (6): n00bKing, ruXxar, Oatsmaster, Sulfurus, Rels, Trfel Sulfurus (5): Kickstart, geript, batsnacks, WaveofShadow Vote Count 3 Sulfurus (4): Kickstart, batsnacks, WaveofShadow, MoosyDoosy Rels (4): Trfel, Damdred, geript, scott31337 batsnacks (3): n00bKing, ruXxar, Sulfurus geript (2): Rels, Oatsmaster Then the geript wagon. Damdred's votes here are very underwhelming. He only votes twice; first on Rels, and then on geript. + Show Spoiler [Day 1 posts on Sulfurus] + On June 14 2015 00:25 Damdred wrote: What was the case on sul? I just read his filter, its interesting but the only problem I see is his subtle change on bats and went along with thread sentiment a bit. Geript is weird I give you that. On June 14 2015 00:59 Damdred wrote: That's not a bad point about sulfus. But I'm not sure it's alignment indicative necessarily, some times people get side tracked. Geript yea I didn't like his filter parts of it seemed pointless, abd his argument with wave just read weird to me. I could,vote for,geript On June 14 2015 05:02 Damdred wrote: Then explain how he is trying in your opinion. And I just like the case wave, I could probably lynch sulf to. His Night 1 analysis post left Sulfurus as null. + Show Spoiler [Night 1 and Day 2] + On June 15 2015 01:12 Damdred wrote: Well firstly I always hunt scum,by hunting tow first anyone who,has played any amount of,games with me knows this. I'd lynch rox sulf and rels one of them tommorow On June 15 2015 05:31 Damdred wrote: If I was the vig I'd shoot rel and we lynch sul tomorrow. On June 15 2015 07:16 Damdred wrote: Voting rels. I will post more later 2 hours left at work On June 16 2015 05:44 Damdred wrote: I don't mind my name being thrown around I'm either moving to sul or ruxxar. I'll be more active shortly Then he does this mini push on ruXxar, but the push doesn't go anywhere. At the same time that he was saying that Kickstart probably was going to flip town, he was voting for ruXxar. On June 17 2015 03:44 Damdred wrote: Here he says that he felt that ruXxar was the scummiest.Anyway idk if Ks will flip town, but my gut says he will. I hope he doesn't and I'm wrong but rux just feels the scummiest from his geripts vote to some of his other things meh On June 17 2015 04:16 Damdred wrote: Ok so id lynch Sul instead that was a super mafia type post On June 17 2015 04:17 Damdred wrote: Look at what Sul said that town is super tunneled oj Ks. That implies that Ks is town. But then says I'll just vote Ks cause he's mafia. the two sentiments don't make sense. On June 17 2015 04:39 Damdred wrote: I'll consolidate on rux or Sul. I'd rather not lynch Ks today On the surface, this doesn't look that good for Damdred. But looking closer, his pushes make no sense from a mafia perspective. Imagine that Damdred is mafia with Sulfurus. He slightly defended Sulfurus Day 1, then joined the Rels wagon early Day 2. Then the Rels wagon collapsed, and the voting looked very open. Damdred pushed ruXxar, and there were two votes on ruXxar(a considerable amount in comparison to the other wagons), and the other person voting for ruXxar was batsnacks (generally townread). However, Damdred had already prevented himself from switching to Kickstart. Here, though, Damdred jumps to vote for his mafia buddy Sulfurus. The only person voting for Sulfurus at the time was Kickstart, who was widely scumread. While Damdred didn't push Sulfurus that much and left some room to go back to ruXxar (though this didn't seem at all likely to actually happen), I just don't see mafia!Damdred playing like this; ie, defending Sulfurus and looking for other wagons, then suddenly jumping to bus Sulfurus for no real reason, when it really didn't need to happen. Damdred could probably have just lynched Kickstart, and had a fair chance (along with batsnacks) at pushing ruXxar's lynch over Sulfurus. (ignoring the case of ruXxar also being scum because I don't see Damdred leaving his only wagon options as his two scum buddies) | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 19 2015 13:00 scott31337 wrote: Well, technically, you replied to all of it.Trfel - what did I not answer to when I replied to your case? Please help me understand what I missed so I can respond. Is my Batsnacks / Damdred / Sulf theory tinfoil crazy? However, you didn't actually address the main points, and your explanations aren't plausible when compared with your actions themselves. To start, you still haven't explained how you can townread Rels. Why does it matter that he believed his case on Fake)Plants, when Fake)Plants wasn't posting and he (presumably) knew that Fake)Plants was town? | ||
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Trfel
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Trfel
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On June 19 2015 16:04 scott31337 wrote: Not sure. I'm also suspecting Oatsmaster, looking through his filter at the moment. And I still need to take a closer look at ruXxar.I'm sorry you feel this way - Who would you like to lynch tomorrow when I flip town? There are a lot of people who seem to be suspicious of Damdred, and I'm waiting for them to really explain why. I don't see many real reasons to suspect Damdred at this point. | ||
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Trfel
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Trfel
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Day 1 Read Progression: Inconsistent, interacted suspiciously with Sulfurus + Show Spoiler + On June 13 2015 11:11 Oatsmaster wrote: btw we still have like a day lol. if bats flips town, ill be going after sulfurus. On June 13 2015 18:40 Oatsmaster wrote: I would lynch geript if we don't lynch bats. What did geript and Sulfurus do in between these two posts? On June 13 2015 15:38 Sulfurus wrote: I would definitely lynch and Kick and I would be fine with a Geript lynch. Wave was very quick and eager to lynch on me and Damdred has posted too little for me to read him as town. And no I don't think Bats has been more town recently at all. On June 13 2015 15:58 Sulfurus wrote: @trfel this post. It made me realize that just because Bats was town last time I tried to lynch doesn't mean it should stop me this time. On June 13 2015 16:00 Sulfurus wrote: Also I feel bad for saying I would lynch Damdred when he hasn't posted much. So now he isn't on my lynch list. Nothing to warrant this change. At the time that Oatsmaster switched from batsnacks to geript, the vote count was as follows: Sulfurus (6): Kickstart, geript, batsnacks, WaveofShadow, scott31337, MoosyDoosy batsnacks (5): [green]n00bKing, ruXxar, Oatsmaster, Sulfurus, Trfel geript (1): Rels By this point, it was starting to look like Sulfurus would be lynched over batsnacks. Here's some of Oatsmaster's discussion with batsnacks after MoosyDoosy voted for Sulfurus (putting him into the lead). No posts are omitted. On June 13 2015 22:14 Oatsmaster wrote: dammit bats I want to lynch mafia today but you are the scummiest. On June 13 2015 22:15 Oatsmaster wrote: argh now i feel like im nitpicking. Ok Ok fine. On June 13 2015 22:17 batsnacks wrote: I never voted him! And I did explain that no one should claim! And I am NOT the scummiest you are just caught in a logical fallacy that I WILL get you out of. On June 13 2015 22:21 Oatsmaster wrote: Here, it feels that Oatsmaster is suggesting lynching geript with batsnacks, who seven minutes ago he said was the scummiest in the thread. And batsnacks made a whole one post in this time.You did. voting thread doesnt count. If we didnt have a voting thead, you wouldve voted. Answer the question. Also, what logical fallacy? That you are useless and are not helping town at all, that you constantly complain about getting scumread and you do nothing but scumread the person everyone else thinks is mafia? Sure, logical fallacy. You would lynch geript? On June 13 2015 22:42 Damdred wrote: With the vote count at 6 to 5 with Sulfurus leading, and the only players not on one of the two wagons (Damdred and Rels) saying they won't lynch batsnacks, it's pretty obvious that batsnacks won't be lynched.Yeah bats is a completely stupid lynch, here. (Never use this again bats is to smart a player) If you look at bats last scum/town games you see a few things crop up. 1) as scum once it's clear that he is going to,be one of,l the leading wagons his care factor diminishes to a few posts randomly complaining without doing anything about it or pushing his own thoughts. In comparison here he is pushing what he thinks explaining why he's town,and,not giving,up. I liked bats when I first read his filter. He keeps pushing the thread. 2) as scum, he has developed an ability to have weak scum reads to a point. Here he has well reasoned or seemingly well reasoned reasons for calling people out. 3) resorts to trolling as scum when he's caught. He's not doing this here. Bats is town, besides meta. Biggest filter, most controversial figure d1. Okish reads. Leave the bats alone Batsnacks and ruXxar say that they are willing to lynch geript, and despite Oatsmaster still talking about how batsnacks' posts are bad, and batsnacks not saying anything useful, Oatsmaster decides to lynch geript with batsnacks. Night 1: False explanation for vote switch from batsnacks to geript + Show Spoiler + On June 14 2015 09:14 Oatsmaster wrote: Let's get moosy tmr On June 14 2015 09:36 Oatsmaster wrote: Not impressed.I quite like lynching Scot. Because Oatsmaster definitely said that batsnacks looked towny. When he was making posts like these just before switching votes from batsnacks to geript: On June 13 2015 23:00 Oatsmaster wrote: lol everyone is a better lynch than you bats, even me. well intentioned means that it feels like Rels is trying to find mafia. Not very well but still. Every other post of yours is bad bats. ... On June 13 2015 23:09 Oatsmaster wrote: Thats like the worst argument in existence. Day 2: Scumreads Sulfurus, tries to lynch anyone else + Show Spoiler + Going into Day 2, Oatsmaster was suspicious of MoosyDoosy, scott31337, Damdred, and Sulfurus. On June 15 2015 08:40 Oatsmaster wrote: that was a pretty bad kill. Why exactly is everyone voting for rels and not sulph? On June 15 2015 20:43 Oatsmaster wrote: Rels just did his go through the thread and reply to every single post thing again. And in the end, I have no idea who he thinks is scum, only numerous townreads. On June 15 2015 21:29 Oatsmaster wrote: So, Oatsmaster says that he doesn't want to lynch Rels, and suggests lynching Sulfurus instead (without voting for Sulfurus). Then he posts some suspicions of Rels. It almost feels like he's giving himself a way to jump to Rels later, if necessary.I mean, it seems really convoluted, the most strategy Ive ever had as scum was to "ok try not to lynch my partners and lynch town". On June 16 2015 08:41 Oatsmaster wrote: I really dont like this kickstart lynch, its coming up super fast and everyone is supporting it. What happened to lynching ruxxar? I thought that was pretty good. or damdred. On June 16 2015 10:17 Oatsmaster wrote: Kickstart is pretty damn obviously town and him not doing anything doesn't really diminish his start. Like this is a super easy lynch for scum to push because Kickstart 's attitude sucks and a pretty predictable response will come. Let's lynch ruxxar instead. On June 16 2015 10:18 Oatsmaster wrote: Seriously why the hell is kickstart a better lynch. Can someone like trfel give me one reason that doesn't include the words activity and promises. On June 16 2015 12:26 Oatsmaster wrote: Damdred, do you want to lynch kickstart or not? On June 16 2015 22:42 Oatsmaster wrote: So, despite scumreading Sulfurus all this time, seeing the wagons being Sulfurus and Kickstart, he doesn't vote. Then he pushes ruXxar, who he never mentioned being scummy so far Day 2 and Night 1. But Oatsmaster didn't actually vote for ruXxar, after a while he switched to Kickstart. Didn't mention Sulfurus throughout all of this.Pretty ok case I guess. Dammit I hate being a wrong but now kickstart actually looks like mafia. It's weird that sulph wants to lynch me rather than kickstart though. Also note: constant scumread of Damdred, but never does anything about it + Show Spoiler + His first mention of Damdred this game. On June 14 2015 15:18 Oatsmaster wrote: Damdred didn't call me town, he's scum. Also that completely pointless list post that has more townreads than scum reads. Sulph / damdred mafia. Scott also maybe. On June 16 2015 08:41 Oatsmaster wrote: I really dont like this kickstart lynch, its coming up super fast and everyone is supporting it. What happened to lynching ruxxar? I thought that was pretty good. or damdred. On June 17 2015 09:42 Oatsmaster wrote: These are all the times that Oatsmaster references Damdred in the timeframe here.Yeah, sorry Scott, that's not actually a case, just observation. I ddidn't explain my scum reads cause I didn't think it was all that important. Also I totally forgot about Damdred lol. Damdred mafia. Also, I never explained a reason for you to be mafia, so it can't be shit. Damdred should just know better than to townhunt rather than scumhunt After this, Oatsmaster does discuss his scumread of Damdred more, but the fact that he was constantly scumreading Damdred but not saying anything about it is strange. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 19 2015 16:55 Oatsmaster wrote: Can we agree that Damdred and ruXxar are probably NOT scum together? Reason being that on Day 2, Damdred was pretty clear about lynching between ruXxar and Sulfurus, and I can't see Damdred making his decision between his scum buddies.how should damdred interaction with sulf if hes mafia? Also, why dont you agree that the voting analysis is pretty damn useless. How is the voting analysis useful? Assuming that Kickstart is town (which I think is true based on my previous voting analysis, that mafia had 24 hours of time to make a push but nothing happened), if Damdred is scum, he played like this: 1. Pushing ruXxar with batsnacks, while the alternate wagon is Kickstart 2. Switches wagon from ruXxar to Sulfurus Which would be pretty darn stupid. Anyway, I've got a headache, and I think I'll be heading to bed pretty soon. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 19 2015 17:20 Oatsmaster wrote: Numbers 1 and 2 weren't two points. I was using the numbers to represent the order of the thought process that Damdred would need to go through as mafia.I dont care about your first point. What is the relevance of the second point? Damdred pushed town then switched when it was obvious sulf was going to get lynched lol. Can you summerize your stuff on me into a few points? the most obvious one I saw was that I switched off bats for no reason. Except if bats and geript are both town, then it doesnt matter. The other one was that I didnt really interact with sulf. I dont see how that makes me scum. Another one was that I keep calling damdred scum but not doing anything about it. Correct, but damdred hasnt flipped yet so again, no conclusions can be made unless you think that a player calling another player scum but not doing anything about it is inherently scummy. It wasn't obvious that Sulfurus was going to get lynched, and Damdred still had his ruXxar push. He could have tried to keep the lynch between ruXxar and Kickstart, but he didn't. Furthermore, Damdred defended Sulfurus on Day 1. Why would mafia!Damdred defend Sulfurus on Day 1, then bus so readily on Day 2, when it wasn't necessary? It does matter that you switched off of batsnacks and onto geript suspiciously. Even if both are town, this helped protect Sulfurus. Then, you falsely explained this vote switch. And you didn't vote for Sulfurus on Day 2, despite calling him scum all the time except when actually making a push. | ||
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Trfel
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On June 19 2015 23:05 Kickstart wrote: Please don't misunderstand. I'm not telling scott31337 to stop talking, I just didn't want to talk to him about the same things (ie my reasons for calling him scum) any longer. I'm willing to talk with him about other things.So scot n oats still scummy to me. Only thing I want to note is if scott flips town I am going to have to have a look at bats and trfel for telling him to not talk to them because they aren't listening. I mean I think scott is scum too and trfel is like shitting town rainbows any time he decides to post but yeah. On June 20 2015 02:36 Oatsmaster wrote: We're not allowed to discuss coaching in this game.Well anyway that's a scum slip because if he's town this game, he has a coach so therefore he's mafia. Wave, what wtf? On June 20 2015 02:56 WaveofShadow wrote: And why isn't it scott31337? I've made my arguments, and he seems like a solid lynch to me. If you don't want to lynch him, you need to say why. Is it just because of how much strength his wagon has?Guys get off scott. It HAS to be one of Oats/Damdred, and this point I don't really care which one you vote for. I don't have a problem with lynching Oatsmaster, but scott31337 just feels even scummier. | ||
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Trfel
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On June 20 2015 03:32 WaveofShadow wrote: I'm not really sure when scum started to actually hard push him.Alright well then if this is the case, when did the bussing start? Was there a 'tipping point' at which you think he looked too scummy to be redeemed even to the other scum? But after his votes towards the end of Day 2, I find it hard to see scum defending him. There were several people who said during Night 2 that his Day 1 voting was towny, and perhaps one of them is scum as well. But after I showed that this argument is wrong, I can't see scum defending scott31337 any more. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 20 2015 03:35 WaveofShadow wrote: I guess a lot of our difference in opinion on Damdred is because in my last few games with Damdred, I've always scumread him and I've always been wrong. While Damdred is certainly capable of being an incredible town leader, he doesn't always play to his capabilities.Ok actually, switching back to Damdred because I'm not going to be around for deadline in all likelihood, so if for some reason the entire thread changes their minds you can vote with me :D ##unvote ##Vote: Damdred Although town!Damdred is capable of playing better than he has in this game, his play reminds me of his town play, only there is less of it. And there are several smaller indicators that he is town, particularly his Day 2 voting. | ||
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Trfel
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On June 20 2015 03:42 WaveofShadow wrote: My past scumreads have been wrong because I've expected Damdred to always play like he does in his best moments. Damdred is certainly a good player, but he doesn't always play to the very high level that he's capable of. (not to pick on Damdred, I'm rarely able to play to my best...)VOTING ASIDE, because it's all most people seem to look at in this game (holy shit i sound like Oats. probably IS town) Why is Damdred town? What have you seen from him that makes him look like town Damdred? Why have your past scumreads on him been wrong? Give me something here. Damdred and I have turned our last few games together into a yelling match, which is one of the main reasons I attributed to town losing those games. If Damdred were scum here, I would expect him to do the same, as it would be an easy way to sidetrack the thread and there's minimal risk for Damdred. Instead, he does this: On June 14 2015 04:43 Damdred wrote: Which I don't really see coming from mafia!Damdred.I'm trying something new here, I'm not going to,give top town trel a hard time about being not sure about me. Instead I'll try to work with and sheep today. This plan is great When Damdred is here, he seems to be willing to lead the thread. | ||
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On June 20 2015 04:03 ruXxar wrote: Why not?I don't think oats is scum if scott is scum. | ||
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On June 20 2015 04:13 ruXxar wrote: Due to the way that sulfur tried to make an attack on oats. Scott also tried to push hard on oats. Could be a bus on oats, but I doubt it. If you go back and look sulfur made that case against oats when the train was still on kickstarter. It makes me think it was an honest attempt to get oats lynched because he was an easy target. However that doesn't make sense either, because why wouldnt sulfur just jump on the kick train? I don't know, but that's my thoughts about the situation. On June 16 2015 15:32 Sulfurus wrote: Here is Sulfurus' first mention of Oatsmaster.K I just realized that Oats is scummy. I looked through his filter and minus the fluff it's just him asking questions (interspersed with attempts to discredit towny posts) Now I'm sure n00b would be quick to remind me that asking questions is actually towny as it provides valuable scum hunting information But even if Oats has gotten anything from his posts he hasn't actually provided any of it to the thread in fact it's likely that his questions are helping mafia more then town. ##Vote: Oatsmaster At this time, the vote count was Sulfurus (3): Kickstart, Damdred, WaveofShadow Kickstart (3): Rels, ruXxar, Trfel ruXxar (1): batsnacks The people who were not voting were MoosyDoosy, Oatsmaster, scott31337, and of course Sulfurus. At this point, you're right, it was not obvious that Sulfurus was going to be lynched. But with this much time left, why doesn't Sulfurus move his vote to Oatsmaster? Sulfurus didn't seriously push Oatsmaster, and he wasn't widely townread, so his scumread of Oatsmaster didn't really change the suspicion on Oatsmaster. Sulfurus made sure to come back before the deadline and change his vote to Kickstart. At this time he scumread Oatsmaster more aggressively, but by now he was guaranteed to be lynched. I don't see why this makes Oatsmaster town. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
That's really frustrating. I thought he was mafia for sure. Oatsmaster is probably mafia. The last mafia is probably ruXxar, or maybe even Damdred, as I expect Damdred would be the best at fooling me. He just doesn't feel like mafia, though... I guess I just need to go back to the drawing board. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
Yeah, it really might be Rels. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
Rels ruXxar Damdred Kickstart batsnacks Trfel WaveofShadow Oatsmaster 8 players left, so 6 town and 2 mafia. There will be 5 town and 2 mafia after the night, and 3 town and 2 mafia if we mislynch again. That gives us one more mislynch before LYLO. So if we can get down to three suspects, we should be okay. I sort of feel like mafia is most likely between Rels, ruXxar, and Oatsmaster, though. Batsnacks, I would appreciate some reasons why you are suspicious of Damdred and WaveofShadow other than POE. How does their play follow mafia motivations? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 20 2015 09:17 WaveofShadow wrote: I guess I don't really know what to expect from town!batsnacks. This is the first game I've seen batsnacks being this active and focused on serious reads.Here's the thing about that. Bats has been pretty wrong despite taking very strong stances twice now which on its own is pretty meh, but now the fact that he's continuing on with his apparent PoE scumread of me, nevermind Damdred despite the method being obviously faulty in the first place? Something's up. As far as your townread of Damdred I am definitely not sold on that. Reasons to afk aside, the times where he has been here he has been extremely content to take a backseat, rather than what you say about him leading. Your bolded point is mostly meta-based, where you assume mafia Damdred will act a certain way even though meta is fairly easy to change in a case like this, and when you say starting a shit fight is at no risk to him when you're top town? Not really seeing how that's the case either. And I wasn't always townread when Damdred had the ability to fight me. The past few games, I've always ended up looking worse for arguing with Damdred. While it's a meta read, and it's a meta read that is easily changed, it's not worth it for mafia!Damdred to do this and hoping that I comment on it, it's better for him to cause a huge argument and derail the thread. On June 20 2015 09:39 batsnacks wrote: I just don't understand this argument. Newbie scum KNOW that their scumbuddies' arguments are wrong, so I don't see why they wouldn't defend townies from their scumbuddies' arguments. The alignment of the person making the argument doesn't matter if it's against town, scum knows that it's wrong.I did not say that every time sulf defended someone it makes them town. I would take your responses more seriously if you were responding to things I actually said instead of making huge, sweeping, wrong generalizations about what I said. I said trfel is likely not mafia because sulfur defended rux and rels from him d1 and I said that oats is likely not mafia because sulfur scum read him for attacking n00b and Rels. That is not the same as townreading everyone that sulfur defended. The advice I have gotten from a very strong town player is to avoid POE reads most of the time, as they leave you susceptible for townreading people for weak reasons. Townreading Oatsmaster because Sulfurus pushed him is definitely a weak reason. Townreading me because Sulfurus townread the people I scumread is also weak. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 20 2015 15:31 Oatsmaster wrote: If you have any questions for me, feel free to ask. If you have any reasons, feel free to share them.Guys come on, start talking. Let's discuss trfel being mafia. If you have anything else you want to talk about, let me know. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
Reasons ruXxar could be scum 1. Early on, ruXxar was slow to discuss people's alignments + Show Spoiler + I think that ruXxar's post answering my question to Kickstart while saying why you shouldn't answer questions directed at others is scummy. Others have disagreed. This isn't about that. On June 12 2015 07:22 ruXxar wrote: Well if the mafia are just going to lynch themselves then this should be an easy game! On June 12 2015 07:26 ruXxar wrote: I actually believe in the right of individual freedom, so as long as the mafia just stick to themselves and don't hurt anyone, I don't mind having them around .*slaps himself* No, stop daydreaming ruxx! On June 12 2015 07:36 ruXxar wrote: Usually you want to hear the reasoning of the person you're asking. If someone answers the question before him, you potentially open up for someone else to make a logical conclusion beforehand, and then the guy the question was directed at get an easy bandwagon onto that guys conclusions. At least that is what I think. On June 12 2015 07:39 ruXxar wrote: Why don't you like liars? Lying is a powerful tool that when used in the right situation can greatly benefit one's interests. This goes for both sides. Deception is not a thing reserved only for mafia. What you meant to say is that you don't like liars that have conflicting interests from you. On June 12 2015 07:46 ruXxar wrote: He makes a few posts at the start that don't say anything. Fine, whatever.What I meant by the last sentence was that that was my number one assumption of why he made that statement. I won't pretend to be a mind reader, but I find it strange that he throws out unsubstantiated claims like that. So far kickstart is a scumlean for me. Then he answers the question I asked to Kickstart. Then he comments on Kickstart talking about people not lying. Even here, he seems to be putting words in Kickstart's mouth (whether or not you accept his explanation). And only in the very last post, after I made a scum lean on him, does he actually say something about Kickstart's alignment. He's commenting without thinking about people's alignments. That simply isn't a town mindset. 2. Early scumread of Kickstart feels forced + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2015 08:04 ruXxar wrote: Here is where he clearly explains his scumread of Kickstart.I didn't like his statement about not liking liars. This whole game is based on the concept of deception. If you don't like that aspect of the game, why are you here? You might claim that you like hunting lying mafia, But it's not a given beforehand what role you will be, so that doesn't make sense either. I have no prior info about any of the players here, so he might have some personal conviction for why he said that, but to me it didn't seem like a genuine well thought through statement. While this read is bad, I could still see it coming from town, except for this post: On June 12 2015 07:39 ruXxar wrote: Here, his first thought is that Kickstart made a wording error. And he provides a possible slight wording change that would make Kickstart's sentence align with ruXxar's own thoughts.Why don't you like liars? Lying is a powerful tool that when used in the right situation can greatly benefit one's interests. This goes for both sides. Deception is not a thing reserved only for mafia. What you meant to say is that you don't like liars that have conflicting interests from you. RuXxar said this before he scumread Kickstart. On June 12 2015 08:14 Kickstart wrote: This is Kickstart's second post in the thread, after ruXxar had concluded that he was scumreading Kickstart.Liers means if you say you are going to do something but don't when it comes to forum mafia. Also good job breaking one of my rules, you answered a question directed at me! RuXxar gave a potential explanation for someone's behavior as town, then scumread that person before waiting for clarification or any more posts from them. To me, it feels like ruXxar forced the read to fit in. 3. Keeps saying he wants more thread activity, but does nothing about it + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2015 08:14 ruXxar wrote: I would also like your reason for Voting on me. Right now I want to make people talk so we have a wider range of information to base our lunches upon. On June 12 2015 08:56 ruXxar wrote: I'm going to bed now to get some good rest. I hope to see lots of activity when I read the thread tomorrow! In the time before he goes to bed, all he did was his previously mentioned scum lean on Kickstart. And he didn't really talk to Kickstart when Kickstart was in the thread (about 10 minutes after he said he was scumreading Kickstart). 4. Switches read on Kickstart for a weak reason + Show Spoiler + On June 13 2015 23:03 ruXxar wrote: This is pretty weak for a townread, especially given that ruXxar was scumreading Kickstart earlier.Then kickstart says this which aligns with my own thinking. This give me a townlean on kickstart. It's possible that ruXxar's initial scumread of Kickstart was to promote discussion. However, this doesn't make sense to me because ruXxar spent so many posts doing nothing and not providing reads. If he really wanted to promote discussoin, he would have been much more active and willing to provide reads instead of just commenting on things. Only the next day did ruXxar actually provide reads on people other than Kickstart. 5. Delay in responding to batsnacks' case on geript + Show Spoiler + At the time when batsnacks posted about geript's supposed scumslip, ruXxar had been posting fairly regularly and had been for a few hours. Still, it took him 30 minutes and several of his own posts before he actually commented on this, and he switched his vote from batsnacks to geript. By this time, geript had six votes and batsnacks had three; ruXxar's vote moved this to 7 to 2. On June 14 2015 06:10 ruXxar wrote: RuXxar's reasoning is really bad, too. He doesn't say that batsnacks' argument is persuasive or accurate, and really doesn't offer any commentary about it at all. He just says that he was scumreading both batsnacks and geript, but batsnacks can't be bussing geript here. So why does this make batsnacks town? Why isn't this mafia!batsnacks trying to get town!geript lynched instead of himself?Wow bats... I'm speechless. I had you and geript as my top two scum. I refuse to believe that you would bus your own scum teammate this hard. You really redeemed yourself here in my eyes. I'll have to change my alignment of you to town and change my vote to geript. ##Unvote batsnacks ##Vote geript Only later does ruXxar imply that batsnacks provided a convincing argument. On June 14 2015 21:52 ruXxar wrote: Why does he only now say that he was disappointed about the deadline being one hour earlier than he thought? Furthermore, in this post he's saying both that he wished he had more time to see through batsnacks' deception but he needs to ignore that post to scumread batsnacks. He's saying both that the post is good and that it's bad. This doesn't make sense.So first off. I'm very disappointed that the night actually started 1 hour earlier than expected. It didn't give me enough time to analyze batsnacks accusation even though it made sense when he posted it. I can't tell you his reasons for doing so, but it felt like such an improvised and irregular post that I don't know what to make of it. All game I had him as scum, and suddenly he makes this one move which totally breaks with his character so far. I can't help but feel like i've been fooled. I want to say that I should've stuck to my gut feeling and not be swayed so easily. If I disregard that one action of his, then batsnacks is still my top scumread. 6. Changing stance on Sulfurus + Show Spoiler + First, ruXxar said that he didn't see anything alignment indicative from Sulfurus' filter (on Day 1). He even scumread geript partly for his scumread of Sulfurus. During Night 2, ruXxar pointed out two of Sulfurus' posts that he didn't think came from a town mindset, and switched his read on Sulfurus to mafia.However, a few minutes later, he posts this: On June 15 2015 07:18 ruXxar wrote: He's scumreading Sulfurus primarily because of an association with Rels. This allows ruXxar to lynch Rels and then not Sulfurus later, or to change his mind on Rels and then not switch to Sulfurus. There's no mention of the points that ruXxar brought up to scumread Sulfurus during Night 1.Although I have to say, there's something that irs me greatly about his play. What irks me is that sulfurs actions are so blatantly bad. Attacking trelf, which to a lot of people is a townie, had such a low probability of working that I'd think no mafia would be stupid enough to try to use that as their defense. In his last game he played he went against the grain and was actually town, so from a meta standpoint his play makes sense sort of? Still the associations between him and rels are too strong. Scum From there, ruXxar changes his mind on Sulfurus and says that he is town. On June 16 2015 00:46 ruXxar wrote: Why is ruXxar only thinking about bussing?Here's my reasoning on sulfur: 1. Sulfur under pressure of getting lynched tries to accuse townread trfel of being mafia, and hard defends Rels. This play is so bad that I don't even think a bad mafia would make this play, but still it's possible. 2. After n00bking's epitaph where he recommended to lynch sulfur as #1, moosy went of the offensive. Moosy and kick then both HARD agree that I have to bus rels and sulfur as the only chance to clear my name. 3. I then push really hard on sulfur to get his thoughts on Rels. He STILL didn't want to change his view on Rels and vote for him. If he was mafia scum, and the #1 suspect by n00bking. Would he not also vote for rels to try to clear his name? Any sane mafia person would. 4. If I were mafia together with with sulfur, and our only chance of winning was to bus Rels as the first lynch target, would I not instruct my mafia teammate to also vote on Rels? I can only conclude that Sulfurus is Town Furthermore, this argument just doesn't make sense. If Rels is town, it falls apart completely. When ruXxar changes his read on Rels, he doesn't revisit Sulfurus at all. 7. Inconsistency with regards to the implication of Sulfurus' flip on Rels' alignment + Show Spoiler + On June 17 2015 05:55 ruXxar wrote: Sulfur: If sulfur is mafia then I don't think these 3 people are mafia : Bats, Moosy, Rels On June 17 2015 07:13 ruXxar wrote: Well. Since he flipped mafia I'm sticking to the list I posted earlier. These people are not mafia : Bats Moosy On June 17 2015 08:20 ruXxar wrote: Yeah...Actually from the way Sulfur played I can conclude that Rels is mafia. 100% 8. Jumped around a lot and posted a variety of thoughts Day 1 through Night 2, then stopped + Show Spoiler + It's generally scummy to keep changing a read for no reason. But if someone does it all the time, it's possible that they just play like this. It's not bad, it just means that you have to look at the bigger picture for mafia motivation. I've been generally ignoring the fact that ruXxar's reads keep changing all the time. However, over the course of Day 3, his reads stayed relatively constant. He's not being crazy and jumping on everything, he was basically just suspicious of scott31337, Oatsmaster, and sometimes Damdred throughout the day. Not many read switches at all. It makes me feel like ruXxar is mafia and got too lazy to keep constantly changing his reads, he saw the lynch on town and let it sit there. This is shown because he initially said that Oatsmaster is scum and scott31337 is town, but when the scott31337 wagon didn't move, he switched to scott31337 and then sat there for the rest of the day. Reasons ruXxar could be town 1. Joined the push onto batsnacks as the second vote + Show Spoiler + While ruXxar didn't do anything to actually promote discussion or push anything for the first day, he did start the next day with a push on batsnacks. These actions are consistent with his words. 2. Generally willing to make his opinions clear + Show Spoiler + First with his scumread of batsnacks, then by following that up to scumread geript. 3. Very active The last two points are simple and general, but they shouldn't be underestimated. I don't feel completely sure, but it does feel like ruXxar is reasonably likely to be mafia here. It's not that hard for mafia to provide clear reasoning, the hard part is for the reasoning to be sensible, deal with scumbuddies nonchalantly, and to be consistent enough to be understood. And ruXxar is active and clear, but his play shows faults with regards to these things. Would like to see ruXxar's response. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
I've only played with WaveofShadow once before, in Noir Mini Mafia Chapter 3. I was town, and he was scum. We caught him Day 2, and I helped with that. I caught him mostly for commenting and sharing suspicions but not actually pushing his reads, and for having his pushes not line up with his words. So I'll be looking primarily at how his words and actions line up. His first major scumread was geript. + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2015 11:14 WaveofShadow wrote: So he's scum making obvious looking town lynchbait post because nobody at all commented on it? This is shitlogic right here ladies and gents. ##vote: geript I will be so proud of myself here. On June 12 2015 14:39 WaveofShadow wrote: Back from streaming Town tier: Oats, Kickstart, Moosy Blergh tier: Almost everybody Scum tier: Geript, noobking 2 ez On June 13 2015 02:27 WaveofShadow wrote: WaveofShadow made several other posts on geript. He seemed truly interested in pushing geript, and his filter has a clear direction.Too scummy to be scum is a poor metric. Geript absolutely can be (and likely is) mafia here. While geript wasn't providing large amounts of new content, WaveofShadow was reading and responding to geript. On June 13 2015 03:12 WaveofShadow wrote: This is a clear difference from WaveofShadow's play in Noir Chapter 3 (as scum).You wish you could get me lynched bbygrl. I like your 'everyone is town' list. Especially the part where you exclude me from it. His suspicion of n00bKing wasn't pushed, but he provided an insightful reason for removing his scumread of n00bKing (that newbie mafia would stop doing the thing that was getting them scumread, while only newbie town would keep doing it). However, this is something I noticed WaveofShadow do as scum. He scumreads someone, and then says why someone else's reasons for scumreading that person are wrong. This doesn't make much sense from a town perspective. In addition to geript, (and excluding n00bKing), WaveofShadow showed suspicion towards Sulfurus and batsnacks. When he changed his read on geript (for a weird reason, see here), he was fairly early to suggest that batsnacks was town, and voted for Sulfurus. Even though his explanation for unvoting geript isn't very convincing, I don't see scum voting for Sulfurus here while saying that batsnacks (the other wagon at the time) is town. With only these two wagons, and batsnacks being in the lead, this play doesn't make sense. The last thing scum wants to do on Day 1 is to bus. And when WaveofShadow returns the next day, he does push the Sulfurus lynch. + Show Spoiler + On June 14 2015 03:46 WaveofShadow wrote: You know it's funny I remember unvoting you for feels and now that I'm back and seeing that you haven't done anything, nor am I seeing hardcore scumhunter geript I'm starting to worry again. Would not lynch above Sulf though. Nothing redeeming about that guy whatsoever. Might sheep Trfel too. Really liking him this game. I also remember Damdred and Scott pinging my radar for some reason---something along the lines of not knowing where they stand but I think scott sort of addressed it. Damdred who do YOU want to lynch today aside form 'not batsnacks?' On June 14 2015 04:50 WaveofShadow wrote: I'm tempted to sheep myself but I personally think Sulf is worse here. He keeps showing up, posting something once of no consequence and fucking off again. Why exactly do you think Rels is a better lynch? On June 14 2015 05:08 WaveofShadow wrote: 'Cause he's about to be lynched. Come on, bats. I'm fine with Sulf and Rels being the wagons for now. I'll keep my vote where it is for the moment. We should try and consolidate closer to deadline though so no room for last minute solo switches I do find it odd that WaveofShadow wasn't around for the two hours before the deadline, but he did hint at the possibility that he wouldn't be online. I missed that earlier. WaveofShadow scumread Sulfurus and Rels on Night 1, and followed up with a vote on Sulfurus early in Day 2. He continued to actually push Sulfurus. Assuming that Rels is town (which could very well be false...), I don't see why mafia!WaveofShadow would bus Sulfurus instead of voting for Rels when Rels had five votes. The Rels wagon looked solid (this was before Rels started his extreme activity thing), and WaveofShadow had scumread both of them. I'm getting sleepy now, I can't finish this tonight. But WaveofShadow pushed Sulfurus very aggressively, at times when mafia wouldn't need or want to bus. Furthermore, the way he pushed his scumreads through the first half (or so) of Day 2 is vastly different from his play as scum (Noir Chapter 3). I find it very hard to see WaveofShadow being scum here. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 20 2015 21:45 ruXxar wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 20 2015 17:16 Trfel wrote: ruXxar Reasons ruXxar could be scum Would like to see ruXxar's response. 1. Early on, ruXxar was slow to discuss people's alignments: I don't see how your quotes back up that statement. All of those quotes are from the first few pages of the game, and then there's even a scumlean in there. My reads so far this game has been : Mafia: # Kickstart scum, # Bats scum, # Moosy medic # Geript scum (I read his filter before the battrap and I already found it lacking. It was easy for me to sheep bats at that point) # n00bking town, # Trfel town, # Rels scum, # Moosy scum baiting as medic, # kickstart scum, # oatsmaster and scott scum. # scott town # wave town # batsnacks town # kickstarter town Probably not correct order,but accurate enough. To say I haven't been out there putting my neck on the line and making alignment statements is wrong. I used exactly that argument against Moosy first time around when I accused him of being wishy washy and non committal. 2. Early scumread of Kickstart feels forced Again an argument from the first 5 pages of the game, you read too much into it. 3. Keeps saying he wants more thread activity, but does nothing about it First off, my filter is twice as long as yours. Second off, if you read my filter you can see that I've actually been pushing the thread all game, not afraid to throw out new thoughts, trying to spotlight players I feel have been getting an easy pass. Whenever I've had an opinion I've thrown it out there, even to the point of making me look wishy washy sometimes because I make new realizations minutes after I post them, and most of the time they even contradict my previous thoughts. I'm not afraid to make pushes on people that other considered towny based on my own interpretation of the situation. I don't need other peoples arguments to make a push, I make them myself. When I say that I'm going to bed, it usually means I'm going from my computer to my bed, and start reading on my phone. And yes, I don't push equally as strong every day. I have a day job that requires my attention and sometimes the thread is simply at a standstill and you've run out of ideas. I find this argument to be very weak also. 4. Switches read on Kickstart for a weak reason: I actually went through geripts filter and came to the same conclusion that he did. Admit it, geripts filter was weak, and going through the filter I came to the same realizations that kickstart did. Besides the first statement about liars from kickstart, he did nothing else that made me feel he was more scummy. Again, you read too much into the first few pages of the game. 5. Delay in responding to batsnacks' case on geript I think this makes perfect sense. My top two scumreads were bats and geript. I did not think bats would bus his own teammate. This makes bats seem town. I don't see how this logic is hard to follow. 6. Changing stance on Sulfurus So this is probably the most damning evidence against me, my alignment with sulfurus. Yes, I was wrong on sulfurus. My mentality was that his plays were too obviously bad to be scum. As you say this argument falls apart if Rels is town, which I actually realized in a later post Despite that, I still clung onto the fact that sulfurus was town. Even if the evidence was right in front of me, i had somehow locked away the thought of re-evaluating sulfurus, due to my earlier conviction. That's a terrible mindset to have from my side, but that's how I thought at that point. Combine that with the fact that he'd been talking good about me all game, he actually did an excellent job in converting me to his side. I don't know if that was his plan, but I have to commend him for it, and slap myself hard for falling for it. 7. Inconsistency with regards to the implication of Sulfurus' flip on Rels' alignment Let me explain. After the flip on sulfurus, my head was in a disarray. Everything I had believed in so hard had just fallen apart. At this point im scrambling to try to make sense of things. So I put Rels on that list because the only reason I could think of that made sense with sulfurus flipped, was that rels was town. Which comes from the realization I had in point 6 above. Then I later reevaluate and think that I must've been overthinking and that sulfur was actually just defending his scum teammate all along which I outlined in this post: On June 17 2015 09:30 ruXxar wrote: Here's my thoughts. People were voting on sulf day one. Trfel makes a case on rel. Sulf calls rels his best town read and sticks too it all game. End of story. I used to believe in the too obvious too be scum theory. I don't anymore. 8. Jumped around a lot and posted a variety of thoughts Day 1 through Night 2, then stopped + Show Spoiler + I've been generally ignoring the fact that ruXxar's reads keep changing all the time. However, over the course of Day 3, his reads stayed relatively constant. He's not being crazy and jumping on everything, he was basically just suspicious of scott31337, Oatsmaster, and sometimes Damdred throughout the day. Not many read switches at all. By day 2, tell me who else you would find suspicious besides scott, oats and possibly damdred? You can't deny that oats and scott were looking the worst, you even said it yourself and almost everyone agreed on the point that either of them were scum. So this point applies to pretty much everyone on day 2. You call me lazy, but I made cases against oats and scott and I mentioned damdred multiple times. I actually thought that Scott was mafia. But then I looked at his day 1. And I had to agree with moosy, it actually looked very towny. + Show Spoiler + On June 17 2015 07:50 ruXxar wrote: Btw Scott is mafia 100%. On June 17 2015 08:33 ruXxar wrote: You're right. When i look at Scotts voting patterns it doesn't make sense, since he even voted for Rels. Yup Scott is town and Rels is mafia. I later changed my mind on scott since I didn't like his defense when pressured. ------------------------------- If something is unclear or you feel I didn't adequately respond to a point, please ask and I will clarify any questions you have. I'm very happy to have an open discussion of where we go from here. This is my current read list: #Trfel: town. #wave: town. He did make some weird posts lately though, not sure what to read into that. #damdred: uncertain, I pegged mostly his inactivity, but he said he had internet outage so I don't know. #batsnacks: town. #kickstart: town. #Rels: uncertain. He puts in a lot of effort though, which I like. #Oats: scum although I don't know why sulfurus would try to make a case against him, not sure here. I'll be re-evaluating some posts from the last day and try to create some talking points. 1. My point is that for your first several posts, you didn't say anything about anyone's alignment at all. You only did that after you saw me do it. This isn't a game-long trend. 2. "First five pages" isn't a good excuse. Why did you scumread Kickstart despite already coming up with a plausible explanation for how his play comes from town? 3. First, realize that these points I brought up are individual events, they aren't huge trends. This point refers to the first day, before you went to sleep, in which you make a large quantity of posts and several times mention wishing the thread activity would be higher, but don't actually do anything about it. The only read you gave in this time was the scum lean on Kickstart. 4. So, geript's filter was obviously weak. You and Kickstart reached the same (obvious) conclusion about it. Why does this make Kickstart town? 5. Okay, let's imagine for a moment that it's Day 1 again, and batsnacks and geript are both scum. You think that both batsnacks and geript are scum. Then, batsnacks pushes geript very hard. You don't think they are scum together. However, how do you know if batsnacks is town and geript is scum, or if batsnacks is scum and geript is town? Mafia!batsnacks has absolutely no reason not to bury town!geript with that post, and a whole ton of incentive to do this. 6. Sorry, I missed that the first time. I'm glad that you realized that Rels being town didn't fit your townread of Sulfurus. However, it's still hard to believe that you noticed this, and then didn't change your read on Sulfurus when you changed your read on Rels. 7. Okay, fair enough. 8. I'm assuming that you meant Day 3. I guess that's a pretty good point. Ok. I feel stupid now Anyway, I know I said this already, but it's important to realize that the things I brought up were single events. The generalizations of your play were the reasons to townread you. And that's why I'm not so sure about scumreading you, because I haven't found any real generally scummy trends in your play (except for connection with Sulfurus and occasionally using quick read changes in ways that benefit mafia). | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 21 2015 06:34 ruXxar wrote: More like 20 minutes now, but yes.I've also lost track of time. Is the end of night in 30 minutes? Thanks for the answers. If I'm still alive tomorrow, I'll think about it more closely. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 21 2015 06:43 ruXxar wrote: That logic is very flawed. The statement is that night kills are WIFOM. Night kill analysis can work, however every night kill has a LOT of possible explanations. Without considering all of those, you can't gain any information from night kills.Here's my thought on the mafias play. Either your or wave are going to die. If neither of you die, then one of you has to be mafia. Does that sound far fetched? I'd rather not discuss the night kill more specifically, for obvious reasons. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
Kickstart batsnacks WaveofShadow Town Lean Damdred Mafia Lean Rels ruXxar (?) Mafia Oatsmaster Nothing profound, but I didn't have much time. Oatsmaster is very likely scum for reasons previously described. Rels is a mafia lean to me because I feel that he was extremely scummy before he was super active for one day. However, since then, I don't get the impression that he's done all that much. He did go through the thread with his voting analysis, which must have taken a lot of work, however he didn't really reach many new conclusions from that. It feels sort of like he's still riding on these reads he created. While the content he put out on that day was insane, I get the impression that he's mostly just working when he needs to look better, and when he's townread he's sitting back. RuXxar is.... ruXxar. It's so hard to say. I still kind of feel like he could be mafia, though. And just for fun, remember a few posts back where ruXxar claimed to have twice the filter length of me? Technically this is true, but when you put the filters into "show all" mode and then open up all of the non-quote spoilers, my filter is relatively close to his in length (I estimated his is about 20% longer than mine). Yay for being wordy XD | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
This game just got way harder.... I just can't believe that we lost two towns in one go. I was townreading both of them... | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
In all the time I've played here, I've never seen a Mad Hatter before this game. So much for newbie games and simple roles. Maybe I should have paid more attention to all of the role discussion earlier.... | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 21 2015 07:04 ruXxar wrote: I know I said I'd talk about this if I survived, but I think I need to clear my head.Why batsnacks and not wave or Trfel.... Be back later. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 21 2015 07:09 Trfel wrote: Here are all of the possibilities I can think of for the night kill.I know I said I'd talk about this if I survived, but I think I need to clear my head. Be back later. 1. WaveofShadow is mafia and killed batsnacks to try and avoid suspicion 2. Attempt at WIFOM on WaveofShadow and/or Damdred 3. Batsnacks was one of few universal townreads left, and he was never going to be lynched 4. Batsnacks was being very active, and is an experienced player To me, it feels like the reasons for the night kill were three-fold. Batsnacks was unlynchable, universally townread, and dangerous to scum. This game, batsnacks was very active and he was reading critically. He was always willing to share his thoughts, no matter how controversial they were. Several times this game, he got everyone to sheep him. He certainly threatened to catch the mafia team single-handedly. The WIFOM (both about who didn't die) and the WIFOM suspicion on Damdred/WaveofShadow were just bonuses. On June 21 2015 08:09 ruXxar wrote: How does TL+ help you search the thread faster? (not accusing, just wondering)I'm really tempted to buy TL+ just so I can search the thread much faster jesus. On June 21 2015 12:28 Oatsmaster wrote: You mean, cases and analysis like the one that made you drop your repeated defense of Kickstart and vote for him over your scumread Sulfurus?All trfel has done this game is post cases and analysis of people which actually isn't great. WaveofShadow raised some good points about Rels, but I still can see him as scum for the reasons I mentioned. But I need to take a much more careful look at his filter. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On June 13 2015 07:14 Trfel wrote: Rels 1. Lots of early posts with no content, only purpose is to make it seem like he's doing stuff + Show Spoiler + 1. Completely useless "hi" post ~10 hours after the game started, not necessary at all. 2. "LOL" in response to ruXxar's contradiction, no conclusion about his alignment at all* 3. Asks a question to ruXxar (still nothing about ruXxar's alignment) 4. Says that MoosyDoosy's first post is weird* 5. Tells n00bKing not to defend ruXxar* 6. Asks a question to Sulfurus* 7. Repeats one of Oatsmaster's comments* The things with asterisks had been said by someone else before Rels commented on them. Then he (finally) posts his case on Fake)Plants. On June 12 2015 17:53 Rels wrote: And by doing this shows that all of his previous posts amount to very little.OK I finally found a mafia. There's really no reason for Rels to post like this, it serves no purpose for scumhunting or confirming his own alignment. All it does is make it look like he's doing work, but repeating things that have already been said isn't even work. 2. Makes a case on the easiest possible target + Show Spoiler + Fake)Plants only had one post. Rels just continues to talk about this post, spending many, many posts directing people back to it. He's not showing any interest in anything else that's happening. 3. Townread on ruXxar + Show Spoiler + On June 13 2015 00:22 Rels wrote: Rels thinks that ruXxar is town for making a post with no content at all. RuXxar made a post saying that MoosyDoosy's defense of himself is really good, and then Rels townreads ruXxar for this. RuXxar's inability to defend himself but willingness to jump on someone else's defense of him is extremely scummy, and reminds me of ShoCkeyy in my last game. There is absolutely no reason for Rels to townread ruXxar because of this post.Alright ruxxar I was unsure how to read you. But with this post I now believe you're a super excited townie. I too believe that we should not let mafia the ability to stay silent. So. What do you think of plants first and only post ? Furthermore, he agrees that we shouldn't let the mafia stay silent. And he does this by asking his townread about the only other read he's made in this game, and then vanishing. Not actually acting on this whatsoever. On June 14 2015 04:32 Trfel wrote: Rels on Fake)Plants/scott31337 (referring to Fake)Plants) I don't understand this at all. He basically says that he has no reason to scumread scott31337 any more, but doesn't townread him in his list post. And then, when geript (who he was voting for at this time) mentions a reason that he moved scott31337 to null (but says that he doesn't remember the reason), Rels is extremely interested and justifies this by referring back to his initial read on Fake)Plants. The read he already said has changed. He's just jumping on something that's there, and it's hard for me to see him really trying to figure out scott31337's alignment. On June 14 2015 04:56 Trfel wrote: Rels' Read Progression
+ Show Spoiler [Examples] + Criticizing MoosyDoosy's opening post (geript already did this) Suspicious of batsnacks (common suspicion), geript (WaveofShadow already said this), and MoosyDoosy (geript) Agrees with the suspicion I voiced on MoosyDoosy Immediately asked geript for his reason for being suspicious of scott31337, suddenly is more suspicious of him himself (see my previous post) It seems like Rels is like a leaf in the wind, following thread sentiment, jumping on whatever works. He townreads people who are being townread already, he scumreads people who are being scumread, and only changes when the thread sentiment shifts. The one major departure from this trend is when he townreads batsnacks. He did this before Damdred jumped in. This is a pretty big change in his read, and against the thread sentiment. However, I think that the way that Rels jumps on whatever suspicion is available every other time in the thread is quite telling. On June 15 2015 05:12 batsnacks wrote: Alright Rels is mafia. His read progression on sulfurus goes like this:
Chronological order: + Show Spoiler + On June 13 2015 09:00 Rels wrote: If it was any other person I would have agree with you about voting opportunistically. But Sulfu played exactly like that last game. On June 13 2015 09:07 Rels wrote: Town lean Trfel Sulfu Oats ruxxar On June 13 2015 09:11 Rels wrote: Yeah I would have agreed if someone else voted you like that. But Sulfu did that day 1 last game. On Breshke and SL. On June 13 2015 18:33 Rels wrote: I agree. But quality is not the reason I'm unvoting him. No idea who I want to lynch. Two of my three town reads are voting sulfurus. I'm suspicious of Sulfu for two reasons: - The "case" on KS on his first post doesn't exist - The vote on BS is opportunist On June 13 2015 20:59 Rels wrote: If nobody changes vote and I have to choose between the two wagons I'll vote Sulfu. ##Vote geript These were some of the suspicions raised on Rels through Day 1 and the start of Day 2. They are quite strong, and Rels didn't answer in a way that alleviated the suspicions. What he did do, though was an incredible burst of activity that made everyone read him as town. Furthermore, the Day 2 voting shows that he scumread Kickstart over Sulfurus. When Rels started going through all of the filters, his reads were as follows: + Show Spoiler + On June 15 2015 21:20 Rels wrote: Now it's time for some analyzis. I will read the filters of each players in the game and post an analyzis of him. For fun here is my mind before doing the filter diving: Town Sulfurus Trfel WaveofShadow Town lean ruxxar Damdred Oatsmaster batsnacks Scum lean Kickstart Scum moosy scott Gonna afk 30 minutes to eat, then the analyzis will start. We'll see after that if the list has changed. He analyzed Kickstart first. And he concluded that Kickstart is mafia. His scumread of Kickstart seems to be strengthened a bit by this filter dive. He scumread scott31337 as well. Then he townread Sulfurus, me (Trfel), and WaveofShadow. And a town lean on ruXxar. He arrived at a mafia lean on MoosyDoosy, and he's less certain of him than when he started. Null read on batsnacks. Null on Damdred. Town lean on Oatsmaster due to a clear train of thought and lots of comments. So, all of this analysis resulted in him moving Damdred and batsnacks from town lean to null, moving Kickstart from scum lean to scum, and moving MoosyDoosy from scum to scum lean. This isn't terribly impressive for the work that went into it. The advantage is that he now has cases and explanations for all of his thoughts. From here, I'll record his major pushes and read changes. Yes, this is somewhat subjective.
It feels like there are three separate sections to Rels' filter. The first part, where he wasn't posting all that much and there were several cases posted on him. The second part, where he reread the thread and then analyzed all of the filters. And the third part, his play since then. In the third part, he's posted far more frequently than the first one, but I haven't noticed a large amount of analysis. He's being active, but he feels almost like he's only doing enough work to scrape by. Probably the best example of this is how his mega analysis resulted in a lot of things to follow up on (his null reads and his scum reads), but all he did was continue to push Kickstart. I don't understand the complete lack of attention he was giving to everyone but Kickstart through this time. The large voting records that he created are another example of this. While they were certainly a lot of work, I'm not sure what they accomplished, really. He said that he wanted to do it to investigate ruXxar's alignment, but the analysis that he provided could have been obtained far easier just from reading ruXxar's filter. I'm not sure why he did this, and it feels like it's just to look towny. It sort of feels like he just stepped up his work when he needed to get townread, and he's been doing work more with the motivation to seem active rather than truly solving the game. Note: this post is one-sided, the other side was presented by WaveofShadow previously. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
I'd really appreciate people's thoughts on the above post about Rels. See you tomorrow. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
Normally cop claims make the game easier, you just lynch the red check and if it's wrong, lynch the claimed cop. But at MYLO or LYLO, that doesn't work. Before the cop claim, I was scumreading Oatsmaster fairly strongly, and I was pretty convinced that WaveofShadow was town. Setup Analysis + Show Spoiler + We know for a fact that town had a Doctor and a Mad Hatter. Doctor is a very strong power role, and Mad Hatter seems to be of about medium strength (about the same as a vigilante). We don't really know what roles mafia has. However, most (13 player normal) mafia games are two moderately strong town power roles versus one strong mafia role and one weak mafia role. One example of this is the setup normally used in minis, accepted as a very standard setup. The newbie setup is as follows: This game uses a variable open setup. When the game begins, one of the following setups will be chosen: Cop is a strong role, Doctor is a strong role, Vigilante is a moderately strong role, and Veteran is a bit weaker. The setup is at most two strong roles versus one and a half scum roles (Godfather is weaker).A) 1 Town Cop, 1 Town Doctor, 8 Vanilla Townies, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Godfather, 1 Mafia Goon B) 1 Town Cop, 1 Town Veteran, 8 Vanilla Townies, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Godfather, 1 Mafia Goon C) 1 Town Vigilante, 1 Town Doctor, 8 Vanilla Townies, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Godfather, 1 Mafia Goon D) 1 Town Vigilante, 1 Town Veteran, 8 Vanilla Townies, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Godfather, 1 Mafia Goon Here are a list of the roles in the 13 player normal games with the last post in the past three months (bumps excluded, also note that all setups are 10 town versus 3 mafia):
In contrast, two of the listed games (I Still Cant Believe It's Not Themed Mafia and Game of Thrones Mini Mafia) had a mafia role with no purpose. Framer in the first game, Godfather in the second. It feels like having a Cop in addition to a Doctor and Mad Hatter is very unlikely. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
I'm still analyzing stuff. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
It still hurts. I refuse to make a similarly terrible mistake again. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 21 2015 17:37 Oatsmaster wrote: Im cop, red checked wave yesterday. greenchecked bats n1, kickstart n2. Oatsmaster on batsnacks + Show Spoiler + Oatsmaster scumread batsnacks from early in Day 1, and pushed this scumread consistently. However, as the lynch deadline drew closer, he switched his vote from batsnacks to geript. This progression doesn't make much sense, as I described previously: + Show Spoiler + Here's some of Oatsmaster's discussion with batsnacks after MoosyDoosy voted for Sulfurus (putting him into the lead). No posts are omitted. On June 13 2015 22:14 Oatsmaster wrote: dammit bats I want to lynch mafia today but you are the scummiest. On June 13 2015 22:15 Oatsmaster wrote: argh now i feel like im nitpicking. Ok Ok fine. On June 13 2015 22:17 batsnacks wrote: I never voted him! And I did explain that no one should claim! And I am NOT the scummiest you are just caught in a logical fallacy that I WILL get you out of. On June 13 2015 22:21 Oatsmaster wrote: Here, it feels that Oatsmaster is suggesting lynching geript with batsnacks, who seven minutes ago he said was the scummiest in the thread. And batsnacks made a whole one post in this time.You did. voting thread doesnt count. If we didnt have a voting thead, you wouldve voted. Answer the question. Also, what logical fallacy? That you are useless and are not helping town at all, that you constantly complain about getting scumread and you do nothing but scumread the person everyone else thinks is mafia? Sure, logical fallacy. You would lynch geript? On June 13 2015 22:42 Damdred wrote: Yeah bats is a completely stupid lynch, here. (Never use this again bats is to smart a player) If you look at bats last scum/town games you see a few things crop up. 1) as scum once it's clear that he is going to,be one of,l the leading wagons his care factor diminishes to a few posts randomly complaining without doing anything about it or pushing his own thoughts. In comparison here he is pushing what he thinks explaining why he's town,and,not giving,up. I liked bats when I first read his filter. He keeps pushing the thread. 2) as scum, he has developed an ability to have weak scum reads to a point. Here he has well reasoned or seemingly well reasoned reasons for calling people out. 3) resorts to trolling as scum when he's caught. He's not doing this here. Bats is town, besides meta. Biggest filter, most controversial figure d1. Okish reads. Leave the bats alone So, Oatsmaster had enough doubts about his scumread of batsnacks to agree to lynch geript with him. And this was all before batsnacks caught geript's supposed scumslip. Oatsmaster didn't return until after End of Day. This quote didn't make any sense before his cop claim. And now it makes even less sense. If batsnacks looked towny, why does he cop check him Night 1? It's nonsensical. (please, no one but Oatsmaster answer this...) Imagine that this quote is somehow a mistake, that someone else hacked Oatsmaster's account and posted this. Then you have Oatsmaster scumreading and pushing batsnacks all game, then suddenly unvoting him and voting geript with batsnacks, then cop checking batsnacks Night 1. It STILL doesn't make sense. Oatsmaster on Kickstart + Show Spoiler + On June 17 2015 08:39 Oatsmaster wrote: So checking Kickstart Night 2 does fit his filter. And he disagreed with the voting analysis that I posted which I feel proved that Kickstart is town. He never bothered to discuss my argument, though, which I would have expected for someone intending to cop check Kickstart that night. "Yea OK I don't agree with that trfel." isn't very helpful for discussion.I really dont think anyone should be given a townread for that lynch without kickstart flipping. Sulph looked really bad the whole game, it might just have been a bus. Also, both sulph and kickstart expressed an interest in lynching me. Which is really weird. Scott switched really late, like 10 minutes before the deadline and you guys are calling him town?!?? A lot of Oatsmaster's Night 2 posts were about people making townreads based on the Sulfurus flip. Oatsmaster continually said that townreads shouldn't be made without knowing Kickstart's alignment. So, when he comes back on Day 3 (supposedly knowing that Kickstart is town), the first thing he says is that Sulfurus was definitely being bussed by mafia. When he knows that it was a town versus mafia lynch where the votes were 6 to 5 pretty close to the deadline (check it yourself if you don't believe me, using host-created vote counts won't show it). Choice of Cop Checks + Show Spoiler + As I described previously, Oatsmaster was scumreading and slow pushing Damdred for quite some time. However, he never truly pushed Damdred until after scott31337 was lynched. The question is, why didn't he cop check Damdred? Here's his explanation: On June 21 2015 18:38 Oatsmaster wrote: So, Oatsmaster thought that Damdred was mafia anyway, and he doesn't seem to think that he needed any help pushing for Damdred's lynch at all. Well, the whole game didn't think that Damdred was mafia, this is obviously false. I didn't, at least (and my reasons for this were clearly stated, though Oatsmaster didn't bother talking about this).Dude why would I check damdred if I think he's mafia anyway. The whole game thought he was mafia. And it wasn't mylo/lylo. I checked wos cause I was pretty sure he was mafia and nobody would believe my push. Dude it wasn't a trap, it was to see if anyone would go on it. And to not slip that I'm cop. Cause it would be super weird for me to suddenly town read someone I've kinda semi scum read the whole game. Again, why would I fake such a "bad" check. On June 17 2015 15:28 Oatsmaster wrote: If Damdred is clearly scum and the entire game says so, why is Oatsmaster bothering to try and set a trap for him, and why is he disappointed when Damdred doesn't fall into it? This doesn't make sense.You tried, you called him mafia and scummy a few times but that kinda shriveled. damn it, you didnt get caught by my trap. Hey kickstart, if damdred is mafia, you arent. Can you explain the smartest possible reads possible assuming Im town kickstart? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 19 2015 16:58 Trfel wrote: Here is my previous case on Oatsmaster. The cop claim does nothing at all to explain these points from a town perspective. It's still a very valid case.Oatsmaster Day 1 Read Progression: Inconsistent, interacted suspiciously with Sulfurus + Show Spoiler + On June 13 2015 11:11 Oatsmaster wrote: btw we still have like a day lol. if bats flips town, ill be going after sulfurus. On June 13 2015 18:40 Oatsmaster wrote: I would lynch geript if we don't lynch bats. What did geript and Sulfurus do in between these two posts? On June 13 2015 15:38 Sulfurus wrote: I would definitely lynch and Kick and I would be fine with a Geript lynch. Wave was very quick and eager to lynch on me and Damdred has posted too little for me to read him as town. And no I don't think Bats has been more town recently at all. On June 13 2015 15:58 Sulfurus wrote: @trfel this post. It made me realize that just because Bats was town last time I tried to lynch doesn't mean it should stop me this time. On June 13 2015 16:00 Sulfurus wrote: Also I feel bad for saying I would lynch Damdred when he hasn't posted much. So now he isn't on my lynch list. Nothing to warrant this change. At the time that Oatsmaster switched from batsnacks to geript, the vote count was as follows: Sulfurus (6): Kickstart, geript, batsnacks, WaveofShadow, scott31337, MoosyDoosy batsnacks (5): n00bKing, ruXxar, Oatsmaster, Sulfurus, Trfel geript (1): Rels By this point, it was starting to look like Sulfurus would be lynched over batsnacks. Here's some of Oatsmaster's discussion with batsnacks after MoosyDoosy voted for Sulfurus (putting him into the lead). No posts are omitted. On June 13 2015 22:14 Oatsmaster wrote: dammit bats I want to lynch mafia today but you are the scummiest. On June 13 2015 22:15 Oatsmaster wrote: argh now i feel like im nitpicking. Ok Ok fine. On June 13 2015 22:17 batsnacks wrote: I never voted him! And I did explain that no one should claim! And I am NOT the scummiest you are just caught in a logical fallacy that I WILL get you out of. On June 13 2015 22:21 Oatsmaster wrote: Here, it feels that Oatsmaster is suggesting lynching geript with batsnacks, who seven minutes ago he said was the scummiest in the thread. And batsnacks made a whole one post in this time.You did. voting thread doesnt count. If we didnt have a voting thead, you wouldve voted. Answer the question. Also, what logical fallacy? That you are useless and are not helping town at all, that you constantly complain about getting scumread and you do nothing but scumread the person everyone else thinks is mafia? Sure, logical fallacy. You would lynch geript? On June 13 2015 22:42 Damdred wrote: With the vote count at 6 to 5 with Sulfurus leading, and the only players not on one of the two wagons (Damdred and Rels) saying they won't lynch batsnacks, it's pretty obvious that batsnacks won't be lynched.Yeah bats is a completely stupid lynch, here. (Never use this again bats is to smart a player) If you look at bats last scum/town games you see a few things crop up. 1) as scum once it's clear that he is going to,be one of,l the leading wagons his care factor diminishes to a few posts randomly complaining without doing anything about it or pushing his own thoughts. In comparison here he is pushing what he thinks explaining why he's town,and,not giving,up. I liked bats when I first read his filter. He keeps pushing the thread. 2) as scum, he has developed an ability to have weak scum reads to a point. Here he has well reasoned or seemingly well reasoned reasons for calling people out. 3) resorts to trolling as scum when he's caught. He's not doing this here. Bats is town, besides meta. Biggest filter, most controversial figure d1. Okish reads. Leave the bats alone Batsnacks and ruXxar say that they are willing to lynch geript, and despite Oatsmaster still talking about how batsnacks' posts are bad, and batsnacks not saying anything useful, Oatsmaster decides to lynch geript with batsnacks. Night 1: False explanation for vote switch from batsnacks to geript + Show Spoiler + On June 14 2015 09:14 Oatsmaster wrote: Let's get moosy tmr On June 14 2015 09:36 Oatsmaster wrote: Not impressed.I quite like lynching Scot. Because Oatsmaster definitely said that batsnacks looked towny. When he was making posts like these just before switching votes from batsnacks to geript: On June 13 2015 23:00 Oatsmaster wrote: lol everyone is a better lynch than you bats, even me. well intentioned means that it feels like Rels is trying to find mafia. Not very well but still. Every other post of yours is bad bats. ... On June 13 2015 23:09 Oatsmaster wrote: Thats like the worst argument in existence. Day 2: Scumreads Sulfurus, tries to lynch anyone else + Show Spoiler + Going into Day 2, Oatsmaster was suspicious of MoosyDoosy, scott31337, Damdred, and Sulfurus. On June 15 2015 08:40 Oatsmaster wrote: that was a pretty bad kill. Why exactly is everyone voting for rels and not sulph? On June 15 2015 20:43 Oatsmaster wrote: Rels just did his go through the thread and reply to every single post thing again. And in the end, I have no idea who he thinks is scum, only numerous townreads. On June 15 2015 21:29 Oatsmaster wrote: So, Oatsmaster says that he doesn't want to lynch Rels, and suggests lynching Sulfurus instead (without voting for Sulfurus). Then he posts some suspicions of Rels. It almost feels like he's giving himself a way to jump to Rels later, if necessary.I mean, it seems really convoluted, the most strategy Ive ever had as scum was to "ok try not to lynch my partners and lynch town". On June 16 2015 08:41 Oatsmaster wrote: I really dont like this kickstart lynch, its coming up super fast and everyone is supporting it. What happened to lynching ruxxar? I thought that was pretty good. or damdred. On June 16 2015 10:17 Oatsmaster wrote: Kickstart is pretty damn obviously town and him not doing anything doesn't really diminish his start. Like this is a super easy lynch for scum to push because Kickstart 's attitude sucks and a pretty predictable response will come. Let's lynch ruxxar instead. On June 16 2015 10:18 Oatsmaster wrote: Seriously why the hell is kickstart a better lynch. Can someone like trfel give me one reason that doesn't include the words activity and promises. On June 16 2015 12:26 Oatsmaster wrote: Damdred, do you want to lynch kickstart or not? On June 16 2015 22:42 Oatsmaster wrote: So, despite scumreading Sulfurus all this time, seeing the wagons being Sulfurus and Kickstart, he doesn't vote. Then he pushes ruXxar, who he never mentioned being scummy so far Day 2 and Night 1. But Oatsmaster didn't actually vote for ruXxar, after a while he switched to Kickstart. Didn't mention Sulfurus throughout all of this.Pretty ok case I guess. Dammit I hate being a wrong but now kickstart actually looks like mafia. It's weird that sulph wants to lynch me rather than kickstart though. Also note: constant scumread of Damdred, but never does anything about it + Show Spoiler + His first mention of Damdred this game. On June 14 2015 15:18 Oatsmaster wrote: Damdred didn't call me town, he's scum. Also that completely pointless list post that has more townreads than scum reads. Sulph / damdred mafia. Scott also maybe. On June 16 2015 08:41 Oatsmaster wrote: I really dont like this kickstart lynch, its coming up super fast and everyone is supporting it. What happened to lynching ruxxar? I thought that was pretty good. or damdred. On June 17 2015 09:42 Oatsmaster wrote: These are all the times that Oatsmaster references Damdred in the timeframe here.Yeah, sorry Scott, that's not actually a case, just observation. I ddidn't explain my scum reads cause I didn't think it was all that important. Also I totally forgot about Damdred lol. Damdred mafia. Also, I never explained a reason for you to be mafia, so it can't be shit. Damdred should just know better than to townhunt rather than scumhunt After this, Oatsmaster does discuss his scumread of Damdred more, but the fact that he was constantly scumreading Damdred but not saying anything about it is strange. On June 21 2015 23:03 WaveofShadow wrote: This is an extremely good point. I can't think of many good reasons why town!Oatsmaster, as cop, would wait for this long to claim, which validates this point even more.So I just noticed something interesting. The timing of oats claim comes after he can be sure town doesn't have a cop. He waits for everyone in the town to have posted to confirm rather than claim early in the day. You ask 'but wave, everyone had posted already waayyy before oats claimed!' Look at the timing of trfels post. He posts and leaves before the idea of cop claiming comes up. Oats waits until he posts the second time to be absolutely sure its safe. (This actually means trfel is probably town?) Anyway, the main analysis. Starting from the bottom of page 110, at the start of Day 4. Basically everyone was extremely suspicious of Oatsmaster at the start of Day 4, and suspicions of Oatsmaster had been around for quite some time. + Show Spoiler [Examples] + On June 21 2015 07:12 ruXxar wrote: Why was damdred your top scum, even over oats? On June 21 2015 08:12 Kickstart wrote: (note that Oatsmaster claims to have checked Kickstart as town)Don't like the position we are in. Oats deserves to die but if he is town then he fucked all of us by deciding to not play this game. If he is town now is the time for him to do something, otherwise he is still the best lynch. On June 21 2015 08:36 Rels wrote: OK this idea was apparently bad. 4 people were for a Damdred lynch last day: batsnacks, me, WOS and Oats. Can see very well Oats as scum, but not WOS. On June 21 2015 10:04 Kickstart wrote: First of all whatever rels quoted me saying about scott isn't even close to the same thing. Dunno what universe he is in. Rels+oats scum team imo. Oats saying be not liking his play is too much of a compliment to himself. He hasn't been playing. My filter looks like that because you are scum. Just go through Oats filter, it is pathetic how he has played and miraculous that he hasn't been lynched. I told town they would be sorry if oats lived till mylo/lylo and yet here we are. Wave and trfel arent scummy atm at all and if they are are scum fine they can win. Oats is most scummy followed by rels/ruxxar and like I been saying forever oats needs to be lynched. On June 21 2015 10:08 Kickstart wrote: Ill make this real easy in fact. I refuse to move my vote. So you can vote with me and hit mafia or vote whoever mafia is trying to push and lose the game. ##vote Oatsmaster The push on Kickstart doesn't make any sense from a town perspective at all. Given how widely Oatsmaster was being scumread, and how this was only getting worse since the day began, there's no way that Oatsmaster can get out of this without a claim. + Show Spoiler + On June 21 2015 19:04 Oatsmaster wrote: I didn't claim because if I managed to get wave lynche, and I don't die, it's almost auto. On June 21 2015 23:15 Oatsmaster wrote: Dude, i claimed because everyone called me mafia. On June 22 2015 07:44 Oatsmaster wrote: So, Oatsmaster didn't claim right at the start of the day because if he avoided getting lynched himself, and got WaveofShadow lynched anyway, it would make it much better for town later. This logic is plausible, however it doesn't fit this case.But the point of not claiming is because we have a much much much easier time tomorrow if I managed to get wave lynched without claiming. On June 21 2015 17:37 Oatsmaster wrote: (key part in bold)The thing that would make you town is to actually talk about sulf during the night which you didnt do, and instantly vote for him day 2 OR make a case that actually includes more than a d2 quote. Anyway, you cant just say "its not scummy" when I have explained why its scummy, what in the world is the bolded thing even saying? "oh i can do whatever I want, you cant call it scummy." what bullshit. How do you find scum then? I chose you because you are mafia. Im cop, red checked wave yesterday. greenchecked bats n1, kickstart n2. Damn it, thought I could talk my way outta this. Still gotta find the last mafia. So he really thought he could avoid getting lynched, and get WaveofShadow lynched instead. And he's frustrated that he couldn't, forcing him to claim. So, what did he do to defend himself, and what did he do to convince people that WaveofShadow was scum? On June 21 2015 09:24 Oatsmaster wrote: Bold added on the important part.So I doubt bats was a hatter snipe. Wave is more scummy than kickstart though. Man I actually have to go through his filter and make a case. Life sucks. Also he will be pushing my ass for really bad reasons. Can I preempt his omgus? On June 21 2015 10:13 Oatsmaster wrote: So he's willing to make a case on WaveofShadow to actually prove it (which was also requested by several people), and he's willing to defend himself against cases posted on him.I'm town though. If you can post a coherent list of things I did and why that makes me scummy then I will take you seriously. So, Kickstart (who Oatsmaster supposedly knows is town) made a case, and ruXxar immediately quoted it and agreed with it. Here's the case: On June 21 2015 11:03 Kickstart wrote: And here's the response:Sure you are. Lets gather a list of who Oats has called scummy. Day1 Starts the game off with a retarded push on bats and thus starts the day1 nonsense where bats was a very possible lynch candidate. Here again he is pushing the retarded bats read but notice him also hedging his bet on geript, WHO HE VOTES FOR LATER ANYWAYS. First time he says I'm scum, in his typical shit reasons fashion. Though I guess with oats him giving a shit reason is a rarity cause as you will see he usually doesn't give any reason at all. Voted on noobs, justification being noobs had just posted long advice posts instead of scumhunting. He later took his vote off with a good point about noob continuing to post advice even after called out. But again scum could easily make such a point. Notice the continual hedging of his reads and the flip flops. Here he does it while setting up to move his vote on geript. Notice also that up until this point he has only ever pushed for votes on people that are all confirmed town, 3 people not one of them scum. 4 town he pushed on if you count myself as I do. Still in day 1, still willing to lynch whoever has the wagons and still hasn't pushed any original and meaningful reads. More nonsense on day 1, again all on confirmed towns: Night1/Day2 Oats posting around flips is ridiculous in general but this one is pretty good. After only arguing with bats for the entirety of day and bats being the main person he pushes, after the geript flip here is his defense for hoping on the geript wagon: LOL at the blatant lies. Read his day1 filter and aside from the meaningless points his filter is only him 'pressuring'/arguing with/about bats. But he thought he was town, riiiiiiiiiiight. He also picks up his calling almost everyone mafia. I didn't mention it earlier but he did earlier and here call sulfurus possible mafia, but note that he does not stick to this read or even push sulf at any point in the game. Even when sulf was lynched his vote wasn't there. Just his usual causing a shitstorm and being non-committal and non-helpful. Then we have the whole day2 vote situation in which oats looks bad in every way imaginable around this flip. First, hes been calling sulf scum but doesn't push the sulf lynch and his vote didn't even end up there it stayed on me. The wagon on me is picking up steam, he goes from being so ridiculously against it to just saying ok fine and voting me and leaving his vote there: all that only to then do this: If I looked so towny and sulf looks so bad why the fuck wasn't his vote on sulf. Day3 After the vote he gets even more ridiculous saying that no one can be confirmed town after this lynch. I'm just annoyed looking through his filter. Instead of trying to figure anything out or do anything productive when we just got the godfather to flip he just shits up the thread. But when all else fails, oats goes back to his usual just calling everyone mafia with no reasons: After the sulf flip he tries to paint me and damdred as the most likely scum at this point? That is just so retarded it still boggles my mind. I was the first vote on sulf and damdred was the second and oats tries to argue for a long time that neither of us really thought he was scum and our votes mean nothing because we could have bused him. Just ridiculous. Anyways to shorten this down , oats tries to push on damdred or scott for the next lynch, both of which are confirmed town now. Now look at his current play and of all the people to say are scummy he is trying to push wave or me as being the scummiest???? Get real. I suggest you all to read his filter. The only thing that ever made me reconsider was his early talking about sulf but then when it counted it amounted to literally nothing. If oats is town here then we just blame the loss on him because his play has been ridiculous. Again, read his filter, the whole thing is bad. On June 21 2015 11:20 Oatsmaster wrote: He's not actually invested in defending himself, and he's not actually putting in effort.Lol kick, why would I switch to you if I'm mafia. Can you explain that? Why don't I just lynch sulf especially since I can make up a real good reason why he's mafia. The bad thing about this is that I definitely will look like town if I'm mafia. I think wave is mafia because he didn't die. I think you are mafia because the only thing on your mind the past 3 days is lynching me. When there are still 2 mafia alive. Why do you say I'm hedging my vote just cause I call more than one person mafia at a time? Also how am I the only person to think that Scott and damdred were mafia. Everyone in the game thought they were mafia. On June 21 2015 13:33 Oatsmaster wrote: I was reading waves filter and he is totally mafia. I can't quite write why, but his actions after geript got lynched are weird. He said he tried to get the lynch off geript? Nope. And he didn't even repeat his sulph scum read until day 2 when sulph made a horrific post. This reads a lot to me like wave asking his teammate to buck it up but then sulph just can't so he bussed. On June 21 2015 13:34 Oatsmaster wrote: So, here's his WaveofShadow case. And it doesn't have any substance.Also he only has 11 pages in filter. Worse argument in existence. First, WaveofShadow didn't say that he tried to get the lynch off of geript, he wasn't around for the deadline. On June 14 2015 08:24 WaveofShadow wrote: Oatsmaster never found a quote that actually shows this.Yeah only thing I'll say about this but I feel like Geript was going down regardless of any errors. I certainly wasn't around to shout anything. Second, pushing a player with extremely low activity when they aren't there right at the start of a day is really stupid. One thing that's stupider is pushing a player with extremely low activity when they aren't there during the night. This scumread doesn't make sense at all. Filter length definitely isn't a stand-alone argument. I don't get the impression that Oatsmaster was seriously trying to get out of the lynch, at least not to the level he said he was. A few other random points: On June 21 2015 12:41 Oatsmaster wrote: Also, he asks about no lynching only after it's obvious that he isn't getting anywhere with the discussion.Btw can we nolynch? We should no lynch if we can. On June 21 2015 12:46 Kickstart wrote: This is a good point, and makes sense with his claim to have cop checked Kickstart.Don't see why Oats is trying so hard to convince me. Like of all the players to convince that he is town surely I'm like the worst to try and convince. Then, Oatsmaster claims cop. Until this point, WaveofShadow was looking really towny. I already analyzed the ways that his play this game differs from my experience playing with him where he was scum. The way he played Day 4 until the cop claim continued like this. The tone of Oatsmaster's post where he's claiming cop feels a bit strange, but mostly believable. He sounds confident, yet frustrated that he was forced to claim. I'm not sure what to make of the argument between them. WaveofShadow getting mad feels suspicious, as there's no reason for town!WaveofShadow to get mad arguing with mafia!Oatsmaster when he knows for a fact that Oatsmaster is mafia. However, Oatsmaster continues to push false arguments. His explanation of the fake push on Kickstart is a bit hard to believe, and this: On June 21 2015 19:05 Oatsmaster wrote: is nonsense. If WaveofShadow is town, he knows that Oatsmaster is scum, because town would never fake a red check in MYLO. WaveofShadow has no reason to question Oatsmaster at all, except to further prove that he is town.Like wave isn't asking any of the obvious questions especially since I'm clearly lying if he's town. His reaction isn't like that at all. And this is what WaveofShadow does later, when he shows how Oatsmaster waited for everyone to post (suggesting that they weren't the cop) before he claimed. As to the final point about claiming bad checks, Oatsmaster's been using the WIFOM defense all throughout the day. First by saying that he only looks scummy because he doesn't know alignments, he wouldn't take an uncertain stance on his scum buddy, and now that he wouldn't fake claim cop with bad checks. It's a bad argument. As for the red check on WaveofShadow, and not an easier target, unless Oatsmaster decided to do this very early on, he didn't have much choice. His vote was on WaveofShadow, and at MYLO the town cop would need a really good reason to ever not vote for their red check. Furthermore, I doubt that Oatsmaster could pull off a cop fakeclaim on someone else, because WaveofShadow would probably be able to see through it. Claiming a red check on WaveofShadow is a great way to discredit the strongest player in the game. WaveofShadow has been consistently towny all game. In contrast, Oatsmaster has been scummy for a while, and his play doesn't align with his cop claim and his supposed checks. ##vote Oatsmaster | ||
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I'll look for the final mafia another time, for now I need sleep. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + The game had town Roleblocker, Cop, and Mason pair versus mafia Roleblocker and Godfather. So, this is four town power roles. However, a mason pair isn't very strong, the only real use is to claim (and even this can be unreliable). Overall, I'd say both masons are about the strength of one weaker normal blue role. Furthermore, town Roleblockers are really weird. At the start of the game they are extremely weak, being as likely to hit town power roles as mafia carrying KP. Looking at the setup, the town has roleblocker as a possible role option, but no watcher/tracker. Therefore, in this setup mafia will be using their least suspected player to deliver KP, making the roleblocker extremely weak until there are few people left, when it's extremely strong. Despite this game having four power roles, they're generally weaker. This game is balanced, despite mafia having the same, standard roleblocker/godfather setup as in all of the other, standard, two power role games. Mad Hatter feels like a moderately strong role. Compare it to vigilante. When the Mad Hatter gets lynched, it's like a vigilante who gets to fire in the day. Otherwise, it's like a vigilante who gets to hold their bullet until the end of the game, but doesn't have to worry about being killed early. The disadvantage of the mad hatter is that their action is far less immediate than the vigilante's, and the vigilante can sometimes provide a confirmed town (which the mad hatter can rarely do). Doctor is an extremely strong power role throughout the game. Can help confirm people, can help keep top townies alive, can block mafia KP, can force mafia to choose sub-optimal night kills. No downside to targeting town power roles (actually, an upside), and no downside to targeting mafia. Cop is fairly strong, but I've heard that Doctor is a bit stronger. It's hard to see town having the blue power of Cop/Doctor/Mad Hatter. Still, if Oatsmaster is the cop, then he's the cop. The setup analysis is something to use to help make a decision, but it's not a stand-alone argument. It's important, but much less important than standard forms of analysis. If the only reason you think that Oatsmaster is scum is because of the power role balance, then you need to rethink that read. | ||
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On June 22 2015 18:01 Oatsmaster wrote: Why does it look like this? He got mad, and yes that is scummy. But his post about the timing of your claim is a really good point and perfectly matches what town!WaveofShadow should be trying to do.Look at the reaction from wave. Does that look like the reaction of a townie getting fake redchecked? It looks like the reaction of mafia that got caught. On June 22 2015 16:57 Oatsmaster wrote: Ok, so you admit that you checked Kickstart to help with association reads but didn't actually follow through with this.Let's go with bats first.I thought he was town during d1 but when geript flipped town, I thought I should check bats to make sure that he wasnt fooling me because it didn't look like he was gonna get lynched the next day anyway. 2nd day. I thought it was a bus because it would've be suspicious for people to lynch kickstart when sulph was really obvious mafia. I don't think mafia tried to lynch Kickstart over sulph. Knowing Kickstart's alignment then makes it easier to find the mafia team. Also he wasn't on the chopping block or shooting block so imo it was a great check. I didn't do jack with this in terms of analysing other dudes though. Life is tough 3rd day, At this point, I'm running outta checks. It's still not lylo though so I'm not checking damdred, there are better check and I have explained why. I set a trap for damdred earlier in the day though. I'm pretty sure Scott hasn't gotten lynched at that point so I was setting a trap just to confirm him for people who have no idea. Then Day 3, when you supposedly knew that Kickstart was town, why were you still yelling at people to not make association reads for the Sulfurus lynch? So there were some people who had no idea that Damdred was mafia. Then why did you say you didn't want to check Damdred because everyone knew he was mafia and it was too obvious? | ||
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On June 23 2015 03:14 WaveofShadow wrote: The natural reaction is to get mad.I don't see why getting mad is scummy in the slightest tbh. When someone misrepresents your play and is posting lie about you, what is the natural reaction to that? I guess that's a fair point, it's natural to get somewhat mad even if you know that they are scum and intentionally twisting your play to seem scummier. Still, I would think that catching scum would give you a feeling of victory, which would overwhelm the anger at being misrepresented, though I guess still having two mafia left weakens this, too. | ||
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On June 23 2015 03:16 Rels wrote: I don't really care about the last scum right now. What I care about is getting this lynch right, and I think I have. I just need Oatsmaster to come back and talk to me for a bit more. Then I care about talking with everyone until we have an agreement, because we need to vote together.No you were my 100% town read until a few hours ago. When I found that Trfel's missing game I had the feeling I was missing something. Like he did a case on everyone but not a "super scummy" Sulfurus. You and Trfel had opposite opinions all game too. That's almost look like that's on purpose. On me, Damdred, Sulfurus, scott ... you were two of the most town read players, but never killed and never on the same page. And lastly, I find weird that you had NO thoughts regarding the last scum, given that if you are really town, you must have thought about the game during 24 hours knowing Oats is mafia. Voilà, here is my feeling. Oatsmaster or WaveofShadow is scum. One of them is getting lynched today, and all that really matters right now is finding out which one. It doesn't matter if I catch the second scum if I'm wrong on today's lynch, then the game ENDS. The last scum can be found at the night phase. And at the next day, and if we no lynch then, the day after that. | ||
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Sorry. | ||
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On June 22 2015 18:14 Oatsmaster wrote: I think WaveofShadow's point actually makes the most sense here. You weren't just claiming a red check on him, but you were misrepresenting his play. There are countless examples of it, and several of them have been pointed out.Trfel, tell me. If someone claims a recheck on you, you will just go off on him right? Is your reaction anything like waves? No town reaction is like that. I will be gone for an hour, maybe an hour and a half, sometime between now and the deadline. I should still be around for the deadline, though. | ||
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It feels kind of lonely, though... makes me nervous. | ||
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Seriously, I feel like there was a ton of good town play this game. This felt like the best newbie game I've ever played in. Town tended to care quite a bit, and no one truly gave up. People were also readily willing to discuss things with others and were open to new ideas. I really hope to play again with everyone who played this game, preferably as town. I had a lot of fun this game, and I hope everyone else did, too. | ||
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But it didn't change the overall point, combined with everything else, Oatsmaster's cop claim just didn't quite fit. | ||
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Dodging the Sulfurus lynch Day 1 felt like a pretty big deal. Sniping the Doctor with the rolecop (though that probably wasn't necessary ) and then the huge gamble with the Mad Hatter were pretty crucial as well. And Oatsmaster's fake claim still made it really close. | ||
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On June 23 2015 07:21 Onegu wrote: It's Sulfurus' second game.This is Sulfurus 2-3rd game. And Trfel only has like 6-7 I think But I have like 14-15 games played Still nothing compared to the rest of you guys.However, this was my second time playing as scum, so I felt very much like a newbie. | ||
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On June 23 2015 07:24 raynpelikoneet wrote: Yeah.Trfel have you really played only 2 games as scum? My first one was pretty miserable, basically everyone knew I was scum at the start of Night 1, and I got cop checked that night. If anyone has any advice for me, I'm listening. | ||
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On June 23 2015 07:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: Pretty sure I wasn't playing mafia at all when the Cell games were played. Either way, I'm positive I didn't play in them.I think you were mafia in the first Cell game aswell no? | ||
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On June 23 2015 07:30 ritoky wrote: Wait, really?Don't incriminate your well hidden partner (wave) with your vote analysis I find it funny that I found out wave was mafia cuz of your vote analysis. I thought the vote analysis made WaveofShadow look good, and made me look bad. I was partially posting it to try and show that I wasn't scared of voting analysis. | ||
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On June 23 2015 08:58 Oatsmaster wrote: At least in my case, it was intentional XDOh yeah, people kept asking me questions after I explicitly said I was sleeping and won't be back before the flip. That was pretty funny. | ||
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On June 23 2015 09:39 ruXxar wrote: His post was doing a whole lot of nothing.Yeah.. I didn't understand your mafia read on moosy's first post at all. It looked like just an excited newbie like me. On June 12 2015 08:16 MoosyDoosy wrote: The first two sentences are useless. He's overwhelmed, and he is looking forward to the game. This doesn't help us find mafia.I am just rather overwhelmed by the amount of (cross) analysis occurring right now. ^.^ Although this is my first time around, I can already tell this will be great. Down to business. So @ruXxar, your reasoning for voting for Kickstart is his statement about lying in a game of Mafia? And @Trfel, can you please share why you're suspecting @ruXxar? I would have to agree with ruXxar's point that it is generally annoying when someone answers a question directed at you. Although I don't see why Kickstart went so far as to vote for Oatsmaster right off the bat. Unless he's the Mafia and trying to mislead us. On another note, do we know how many Mafias there are? If there are two Mafias, Oatsmaster and Kickstart may be those two and may have set this up to make everyone confused and make people like you two fight amongst yourselves. Down to business. This also doesn't help us find mafia. He then asked two questions which didn't go much of anywhere, and he took guesses at the answers, like he's already trying to justify asking the questions or show that he's trying to think about the game. This really doesn't help with doing anything other than saying "Ha, I got it right!" later, which doesn't fit a mindset of actually solving the game. Then he asked about the number of mafia in the game (which is clearly stated in the OP), and gave an unflipped association argument that didn't go anywhere. While in the same post (I think) saying that the association analysis is overwhelming him. Anyway, I think that's what makes it scumy. I was going to question MoosyDoosy about this myself, later, but I wanted to push my points on ruXxar to their conclusion (whatever that would be) first. On June 23 2015 09:55 ruXxar wrote: Also, LOL I think that's going to be my new mafia tell from now on. Too perfect play => mafia. Have fun with that | ||
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On June 23 2015 14:31 Rels wrote: There is, I'm actually listening to it right now Wow this is over! I want to thank my coach ritoki for the many many hours he helped me try to make sense of everything. Thanks coach will be rooting for you every time now!Now apparently there was a podcast on fucking how wos can be mafia. I hope it's recorded cause I wanna hear that Finally thanks onegu and ff for hosting http://www.twitch.tv/waveofshadow/b/671630829 Here's the main part, anyway. Hopefully you will play mafia again, and hopefully I get town with you next time XD | ||
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On June 23 2015 14:56 Rels wrote: Hahaha, I haven't been night killed in months XDSure! Ofc if Im mafia you may die N1 (= | ||
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