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Certain topics are blacklisted from Patch Discussion and they include: |
Welcome to the Patch Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around the most recent patch and gameplay on the live client.
Non-gameplay discussion should go in the General Discussion thread.
Non-League of Legends dicsussion should go in the LiquidLegends Lounge.
Certain topics are blacklisted from Patch Discussion and they include:- "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
- "What is a tank" (and other vague monikers)
- Unjustified game theory / speculative discussion about the game
- Complaints about balance and game design
Additionally, the TL LoL Ten Commandments are available for you to reference if you have any questions about this subforum.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
There is no new champion this patch.
Patch 5.16: Live on Aug. 19th, 2015
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
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I hope this clears things up on building triforce on Vayne.
On August 10 2015 11:33 LiquidPiglet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 11:21 WannabePiglet wrote:
@Piglet How do i play Vayne as well as you do? And why triforce third item? just good ..... dont hate triforce
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I'm in the mood for some Lucian with these patch notes. He needs some love. range buff would've been nicer 
Liss buff seems huge. Also Darius seems a bit overloaded.
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It's super good on Vayne; I just don't see it on Jungle because it doesn't work out with Devourer. Same reason Shyv shouldn't get it.
Darius looks like he does a lot, but chunking his W CD, reducing his movespeed, and removing a lot of early kill potential means they had to add something. He needs to do a lot when in range.
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On August 20 2015 05:23 Caiada wrote:
It's super good on Vayne; I just don't see it on Jungle because it doesn't work out with Devourer. Same reason Shyv shouldn't get it.
I suppose that's fair - I was more approaching the comparison from the side of traditional ADC builds, which wasn't what prompted the discussion.
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So I was reading these and seeing the new juggernaut items and thinking they basically push Mundo right out of the game.
Then I read the Warmogs and Spirit Visage changes and was happy again. That base HP regen buff.
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Sterak's Gage: Increases health and BASE attack damage.
The triforce synergy sounds amazing.
On second thought, this is pretty weird, they're kinda adding a new scaling stat: now we'll have ap, ad, and base ad.
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I'll test jungle garen, though it seems like they didn't buff garens damage much at all lategame except on single targets, and nerfed it midgame, blizzard please
that streakers item looks good for people like Vi.
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E is definitely better at 16 if you're getting any AD. 300 + 3.8 AD compared to 360 + 2.75 AD. Base at 16 is already 109, so you're 60ish ahead. You break even with no damage at 13, slightly behind at 10? I'm too lazy for additional math right now. If you're getting cleaver, you're definitely slightly ahead at 10, especially so against a single target.
True damage ult seems like too much variance in theory, and calc above assumes you get all ticks off.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On August 20 2015 06:12 Slayer91 wrote:
I'll test jungle garen, though it seems like they didn't buff garens damage much at all lategame except on single targets, and nerfed it midgame, blizzard please
that streakers item looks good for people like Vi.
Do the scip thing and record the first clear
and then record a few games
Im curious
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On August 20 2015 06:22 Caiada wrote:
E is definitely better at 16 if you're getting any AD. 300 + 3.8 AD compared to 360 + 2.75 AD. Base at 16 is already 109, so you're 60ish ahead. You break even with no damage at 13, slightly behind at 10? I'm too lazy for additional math right now. If you're getting cleaver, you're definitely slightly ahead at 10, especially so against a single target.
True damage ult seems like too much variance in theory, and calc above assumes you get all ticks off.
Old E was 6 hits, 3.3 AD. So your math is off.
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On August 20 2015 06:25 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 06:22 Caiada wrote:
E is definitely better at 16 if you're getting any AD. 300 + 3.8 AD compared to 360 + 2.75 AD. Base at 16 is already 109, so you're 60ish ahead. You break even with no damage at 13, slightly behind at 10? I'm too lazy for additional math right now. If you're getting cleaver, you're definitely slightly ahead at 10, especially so against a single target.
True damage ult seems like too much variance in theory, and calc above assumes you get all ticks off. Old E was 6 stacks, 3.3 AD. So your math is off.
I'm dumb. I adjusted the base but not the scaling...
Ok, so. Base at 16 for old is ~720. Base at 16 now is ~715. Rounding because I'm a lazy fucker. 60 behind at 13, so and so forth. So you're like 15 ahead with just a Cleaver.
Marginal at best, and doubtful it's worth building more than Sterak/Cleaver.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Alright, dont have league on this computer but looking at Skarner just theorycraft wise, he looks pretty sick
the main thing that caught my eye is the 0.9 AD ratio on his Q
All of his stuff now scales with things but I think the AD ratio is his most impressive scaling by far (well, next to CDR)
so I think its time to go back to Warrior and I wonder whether you even need Righteous Glory super fast, I guess it depends on just how well the new crystal things work for regenerating his mana. I think I could definitely enjoy Hexdrinker on Skarner now too.
Anyone tried him yet? Any thoughts?
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I can test him for you scip if I can be bothered when patch hits tomorrow.
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On August 20 2015 06:12 Slayer91 wrote:
I'll test jungle garen, though it seems like they didn't buff garens damage much at all lategame except on single targets, and nerfed it midgame, blizzard please
that streakers item looks good for people like Vi.
I dunno, eating 1800 HP in the face within 5 seconds as Vi tends to make me wanna gtfo the fight, not stay in it and keep trucking, unless the whole enemy team is low. 
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On August 20 2015 06:44 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 06:12 Slayer91 wrote:
I'll test jungle garen, though it seems like they didn't buff garens damage much at all lategame except on single targets, and nerfed it midgame, blizzard please
that streakers item looks good for people like Vi. I dunno, eating 1800 HP in the face within 5 seconds as Vi tends to make me wanna gtfo the fight, not stay in it and keep trucking, unless the whole enemy team is low.
thats if you lose 1800 and the enemy team kindly lets you run away
most likely you are going to lose the rest of it so a 30% max hp shield is a good deterent and also if you have trinity you can get like +100 damage on your trinity procs pretty sick
especially if you are trying to go ham it basically means you have like 900 more hp in a duel where they can't outkite the shield.
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On August 20 2015 06:37 Scip wrote:
Alright, dont have league on this computer but looking at Skarner just theorycraft wise, he looks pretty sick
the main thing that caught my eye is the 0.9 AD ratio on his Q
All of his stuff now scales with things but I think the AD ratio is his most impressive scaling by far (well, next to CDR)
so I think its time to go back to Warrior and I wonder whether you even need Righteous Glory super fast, I guess it depends on just how well the new crystal things work for regenerating his mana. I think I could definitely enjoy Hexdrinker on Skarner now too.
Anyone tried him yet? Any thoughts?
Skarner is gonna be absolutely bonkers. His new passive is really good from what I've seen and so is his E, plus damage boosts on his Q.
Remember, Skarner has really good base stats, so he's a bad champ the Q change buffs him a lot.
Skarner at worlds here we go.
Edit: I'll upload stuff as soon as the patch goes live, but I'll have to wait till tomorrow for that.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Alright, I havent scrolled far down the list before I posted about Skarner. That Steraks Gage looks fairly impressive to me. Youre often very clearly the focus of a lot of teams and if you get full value off of the shield it is definitely very cost efficient indeed. And since your Q scales off of total AD it is definitely worth trying. Might even want to get this before Righteous glory depending on how mana works out on Skarner now.
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Oh yeah, the new itemization is also really good for him. Of course normal style will still work, but I also wanna try some sort of splitpush stuff with him, the new items seem really good for that.
Edit: Top lane Skarner could also be viable now.
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Skarner is my pick for most likely to actually be used, of the four. Morde needs development time; whether Garen was buffed or not depends a lot on who is actually the 'Villain'; and Darius is not the sort that fits my idea of a good meta top right now. But he'll be a beast in soloq.
I think, if anything, the crystal things will be too good and too important. Sterak shield will probably also be toned down, if I were making more wild guesses.
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Could be steraks shield decays in 2 seconds so you can just wait it out
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On August 20 2015 07:07 Caiada wrote:But he'll[Darius] be a beast in soloq.
Unlikely they compensated his base damage and ratios so badly to not make bloodrage op, something that you can't take advantage of in a 1v1, lane strength I would say is generally more important in solo Q and his was basically removed.
they gave Morde a shitload of damage but he already did a shitload of damage it was just ap, crucially they didn't give him any new tools to actually get his full combo down, which was the problem with old Morde.
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Oh, it's bonus AD on Q currently. Yeah that explains how it's a buff.
The fact that his spire-passive is applied while people are cc'd by E or R doesn't seem huge, though. There's the backswing of your auto and stuff so E gives less than 1s of additional MS (then you add mercs in the mix), and you can't auto during the ult. The MS boost to bring people back into your team faster is nice though.
Sterak's buff is 8 seconds, so I assume the shield decays over the same duration.
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Darius is basically a cleanup god now though. That sort of shit always does well in average soloq.
Morde now being capable of having what amounts to a dedicated babysitter is pretty nice in theory.
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On August 20 2015 07:20 Caiada wrote:
Darius is basically a cleanup god now though. That sort of shit always does well in average soloq.
Morde now being capable of having what amounts to a dedicated babysitter is pretty nice in theory.
yea but is it better enough to justify him being not strong in lane anymore, seems unlikely because he's already decent at cleanup if he wins lane which is the majority of the time. Not to mention his already poor initiation was nerfed as they reduced the active frames on E specifically it can now be flashed on reaction which was previously impossible.
I mean I'll totally give him a spin tomorrow because bloodrage sounds hilarious but I'm really not looking foreword to playing him into auto attack tops who can just sit on you now that the hilt of Q does ~35 damage at rank 1
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I'd love to see supports intentionally KSing kills against teams with garen to avoid important targets getting villain
I mean squishies are gonna take like 50% more damage anyway and then tanks with like 1500 missing HP are automatically in kill range because fuck mr and 10% max hp true damage bonus on a spin
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If the variance on villainy works out, it could be a pretty notable buff.
On August 20 2015 07:25 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 07:20 Caiada wrote:
Darius is basically a cleanup god now though. That sort of shit always does well in average soloq.
Morde now being capable of having what amounts to a dedicated babysitter is pretty nice in theory. yea but is it better enough to justify him being not strong in lane anymore, seems unlikely because he's already decent at cleanup if he wins lane which is the majority of the time. Not to mention his already poor initiation was nerfed as they reduced the active frames on E specifically it can now be flashed on reaction which was previously impossible. I mean I'll totally give him a spin tomorrow because bloodrage sounds hilarious but I'm really not looking foreword to playing him into auto attack tops who can just sit on you now that the hilt of Q does ~35 damage at rank 1
Hilt Q is gonna be so sad. I didn't really have much trouble hitting it, but I forgot they added a cast time. That works out with the full combo now slowing massively and the increased AA range, but it's gonna be sad times vs a Riven/Fiora and similar matchups.
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he sounds like fish food as well
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It's not just the hilt damage. Previously you'd be able to Q them while they approach (and because of his passive you don't want to fight him at level 1 anyway, even to absorb a hilt Q), or even just aa-W-aa, use the passive 5% MS buff + W slow to walk backward a bit and hit Q with the blade, for example.
0.75s delay on Q is longer than Rupture (0.625s), Nevermove, and other such spells. I'm pretty sure once your opponent is made aware of it, he can dodge Q or tank the hilt pretty easily. And you won't be able to easily hit good Qs after an Apprehend either, even less AoE ones.
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E-AA, walk back slightly while they're slowed and your Q is casting, hit Q, and another AA-W. That was my usual combo anyway. E is a 90% 1 second slow, so as soon as you hit it, smash Q and you can easily walk into blade range unless they have a dash up. Being able to move to keep the hitbox on them makes it not as devastating a change as it sounds.
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Wait, you can move during the "delay", it's not a still cast time?
Live version is pretty much instant but you still retain momentum during the cast so it's more or less like a cast-while-moving spell.
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yea that makes a big difference I'll report back after I get to play him tomorrow unless someone can confirm
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On August 20 2015 08:03 Alaric wrote:
Wait, you can move during the "delay", it's not a still cast time?
Live version is pretty much instant but you still retain momentum during the cast so it's more or less like a cast-while-moving spell.
Yep. It's basically the same as before but with a .75 second delay. Example: + Show Spoiler +
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They went through with the Viktor gutting
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Any patch that buffs LeBlanc is a good patch in my book. The Viktor nerfs look excessive as do the Skarner buffs. Other than that, I can't complain.
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Oh well. Hopefully before worlds they sort out all the mids with too good waveclear *cough cough Azir fart sneeze*.
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I'd love an explanation of why the Viktor change gutted him.
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On August 20 2015 07:15 Slayer91 wrote:
Could be steraks shield decays in 2 seconds so you can just wait it out
so triforce/tank fizz has his own version of zhonya's now?
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On August 20 2015 09:12 Ketara wrote:
I'd love an explanation of why the Viktor change gutted him.
TL;DR:
Put a champion who had "early reliable waveclear" as one of his main strengths (including laning strength) 600~800 gold behind from the very first recall has more ramifications than just "nerfing his early game a bit".
(And I'll rant again and again about changing an early-midgame champion and trying to shove him forcefully into the "late game" slot that's already fucking overcrowded.)
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To wait out enough of the shield to not be efficient would be a pretty good reaction time, and it's also a couple seconds where you're getting free reign with a 25% base AD buff for a couple Tforce procs.
On August 20 2015 09:12 Ketara wrote:
I'd love an explanation of why the Viktor change gutted him.
They already thought he was average at best, so of course they think so, lol.
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On August 20 2015 09:21 Caiada wrote:To wait out enough of the shield to not be efficient would be a pretty good reaction time, and it's also a couple seconds where you're getting free reign with a 25% base AD buff for a couple Tforce procs. Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 09:12 Ketara wrote:
I'd love an explanation of why the Viktor change gutted him. They already thought he was average at best, so of course they think so, lol.
Even if he was OP the deficit would be pretty huge. At level 15 with 2 (or 3) augments, you're down 25 AP! That more than a full kill worth of AP deficit. And this is the low point of the disadvantage. Before you buy your second augment you're down 20+1 AP/level. Its 40-1/level after second. So getting ahead as Viktor gets you almost nothing in terms of stats unless you simply forgo your augments
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Weren't you the guys who originally said the new Hexcore was a terrible item and shouldn't be upgraded till 6th item anyway though?
I think I remember that.
I also think I remember Fenix and Bjergsen rushing to 2 cores on it immediately in some recent series.
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Febiven rushed two upgrades in recent soloq game, so did Nukeduck, though he got Sorc first. Incarnation's rushed two. Keane does. Only one who didn't was Fox, who gets a NLR instead. Weirdo.
On Darius, they actually reduced the CD of W and I was misreading notes. Thought that looked wrong. That's pretty nice given the power of the slow and his love of CDR, makes up for losing the damage a bit. A 3s AA reset with a 90% slow will be fun, if he ever gets in range.
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On August 20 2015 09:58 Ketara wrote:
Weren't you the guys who originally said the new Hexcore was a terrible item and shouldn't be upgraded till 6th item anyway though?
I was indeed incorrect as to the utility of the speed up augment. But no one said to not upgrade it. 1 -> Power was the recommendation I made because the raw stats on it were low, 1000 AP for 25-30 AP is low considering you can buy 40 for 860.
Now the marginal stat increases on it are even lower until 13th level.
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Also Gou I sent you a PM broski.
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From the other thread since we're supposed to talk about this stuff here now
On August 20 2015 05:27 Alaric wrote:
Wtf. Of course Randuin's a nerf, it's nerfed against everyone but Ashe, since people won't always crit and it's way worse against damage sources that aren't crit.
And Righteous Glory became cheaper in exchange for the catalyst passive. You don't upgrade to Righteous till you're ready to make plays, so you rarely finish it first item, especially in soloQ. The "nerf" won't matter a lot of the time due to that.
Its also worth noting that its a flat damage reduction against Ashe and so is actually more powerful than against other champions(until they hit 100% crit)
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On August 20 2015 08:10 Caiada wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 08:03 Alaric wrote:
Wait, you can move during the "delay", it's not a still cast time?
Live version is pretty much instant but you still retain momentum during the cast so it's more or less like a cast-while-moving spell. Yep. It's basically the same as before but with a .75 second delay. Example: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2BVaeASMmA
Well, at the very least, that looks visually terrible.
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On August 20 2015 14:37 TheHumanSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 08:10 Caiada wrote:On August 20 2015 08:03 Alaric wrote:
Wait, you can move during the "delay", it's not a still cast time?
Live version is pretty much instant but you still retain momentum during the cast so it's more or less like a cast-while-moving spell. Yep. It's basically the same as before but with a .75 second delay. Example: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2BVaeASMmA Well, at the very least, that looks visually terrible.
Does it? I thought it doesn't look too bad. Even makes Darius easier since it gives you range indicators.
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On August 20 2015 09:58 Ketara wrote:
Weren't you the guys who originally said the new Hexcore was a terrible item and shouldn't be upgraded till 6th item anyway though?
I think I remember that.
I also think I remember Fenix and Bjergsen rushing to 2 cores on it immediately in some recent series.
You know it's because of that shit that people stop bothering. Word-warping and stuff.
I said the completed hexcore wasn't worth it compared to finishing other items (unless the ult speed was crucial to hitting it, and it's situational), and the Mk. II hexcore isn't cost-efficient until level... I don't remember, 11 or 13, so you'd have to justify its utility to buy it before that. Turns out sometimes it's the case! I know against a Xerath I definitely want the speed boost if I want to compete with him for example.
The Darius example made me realise how narrow the blade is compared to the hilt. I didn't think in terms of width of the blade, but more "this particular point is on the blade, I'll align it with the enemy model" when I played him.
The indicator is distracting though. At least it makes me think that spell's gotta be a big deal to be telegraphed like that. And maybe it is post-rework! I dunno, gotta try him. But if you start piling Sion, Maokai, Orianna, Darius, etc. in a teamfight you're going to have a pretty cluttered ground.
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no one mentions that the new hydra and armor items may bring Renekton back
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On August 20 2015 17:43 M2 wrote:
no one mentions that the new hydra and armor items may bring Renekton back
Shh, let sleepers lie.
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the more I read the patch notes the more I can't understand why Garen was gutted so much:
P- straight nerf
Q - straight nerf and its a hard nurf
W- straight nerf, mostly about the tenacity part, why? the champ did not have so much utility anyway
E- I cant understand, perhaps its a nerf and buff together
R - buffed
So, if R buff enough to even slightly compensate so many nerfs on all other abilities and Garen was not even strong or something, I dont get it
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On August 20 2015 17:43 M2 wrote:
no one mentions that the new hydra and armor items may bring Renekton back
His problem was always he had a great early game and a bad lategame, and the items don't change that.
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On August 20 2015 20:52 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 17:43 M2 wrote:
no one mentions that the new hydra and armor items may bring Renekton back His problem was always he had a great early game and a bad lategame, and the items don't change that.
They kind of do. The issue was he couldn't get away with building Hydra without losing late game durability and doing respectable damage. Now he takes a smaller hit to durability.
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On August 20 2015 20:46 M2 wrote:
the more I read the patch notes the more I can't understand why Garen was gutted so much:
P- straight nerf
Q - straight nerf and its a hard nurf
W- straight nerf, mostly about the tenacity part, why? the champ did not have so much utility anyway
E- I cant understand, perhaps its a nerf and buff together
R - buffed
Yea they nerfed a lot but he got ostensibly a damage buff on E and R and a bit more tankiness with the flat resists+health stack option
They buffed his E damage first couple ranks and lowered cds so as I said jungle garen might be good but top lane garen is most likely straight nerfed.
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On August 20 2015 21:22 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 20:46 M2 wrote:
the more I read the patch notes the more I can't understand why Garen was gutted so much:
P- straight nerf
Q - straight nerf and its a hard nurf
W- straight nerf, mostly about the tenacity part, why? the champ did not have so much utility anyway
E- I cant understand, perhaps its a nerf and buff together
R - buffed
Yea they nerfed a lot but he got ostensibly a damage buff on E and R and a bit more tankiness with the flat resists+health stack option They buffed his E damage first couple ranks and lowered cds so as I said jungle garen might be good but top lane garen is most likely straight nerfed.
What would you build now on Garen if you want to be front line? Until now I was going black cleaver and then tanky stuff. If I wanted to be more lose on damage I was adding brutalizer or hexadrinker or last whisper, so Black Cleaver and one more damage or half/damage item all else tanky.
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Anybody with a defensive steroid, especially armor/mr but also kind of health, can now afford at least two hybrid items. That's a big deal for guys like Renekton/Garen/Jax and also anybody who goes Tforce.
On Darius, hitting Q *is* a big deal now. Well it was always kind of a big deal in lane, but now especially so because hilt hits don't give a passive stack and the damage difference is larger. Blade Q with Cleaver/Maw/Titanic or Sterak is a lot of damage in a large AoE. And a heal. And a 4 second CD if you have no other CDR.
As somebody who played a lot of Darius already, he definitely got off the best besides Skarner.
Edit: More fun Darius facts after custom game testing:
Bonus AD from passive scales like so: 40/40/40/45/45/45/50/60/70/80/90/100/110/120/140/160/180/200
Q bonus from blade damage now applies to minions. Nice little change for scrubs like me who miss stupid CS because of low Q damage.
Passive scales with bonus AD, so Sterak's is 50/50. Titanic/Cleaver/Maw/DMP seems ideal?
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On August 20 2015 21:26 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 21:22 Slayer91 wrote:On August 20 2015 20:46 M2 wrote:
the more I read the patch notes the more I can't understand why Garen was gutted so much:
P- straight nerf
Q - straight nerf and its a hard nurf
W- straight nerf, mostly about the tenacity part, why? the champ did not have so much utility anyway
E- I cant understand, perhaps its a nerf and buff together
R - buffed
Yea they nerfed a lot but he got ostensibly a damage buff on E and R and a bit more tankiness with the flat resists+health stack option They buffed his E damage first couple ranks and lowered cds so as I said jungle garen might be good but top lane garen is most likely straight nerfed. What would you build now on Garen if you want to be front line? Until now I was going black cleaver and then tanky stuff. If I wanted to be more lose on damage I was adding brutalizer or hexadrinker or last whisper, so Black Cleaver and one more damage or half/damage item all else tanky.
I always played garen on the basis that my ad scaling was shitty and I had to rely on my base damages. I'd go sunfire, mercs or tabi, hexdrinker for mr (SV or Bveil or locket also vs heavy AP) then randuins and thornmail with LW when I needed damage.
I suspect you'll do similar now but BC becomes better than LW probably (q+1/2 E is fully stacked at lvl 16) so you'll get cinderhulk+BC+deadmans plate+hexdrinker-->randuins probably
steraks+trinity works probably if you want to go heavy damage with warrior but I tend to play him super tanky
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I am ready for the garen videos where he all ins someone and randomly bot dies and he loses the 1v1 because of the villain shit.
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On August 20 2015 22:41 nafta wrote:
I am ready for the garen videos where he all ins someone and randomly bot dies and he loses the 1v1 because of the villain shit.
They specifically said it doesn't suddenly change like that.
Villainy's also set up so it won't change mid combat, sudden change of Villain screwing you over shouldn't be a thing. from http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/08/red-post-collection-juggernaut-reworks.html#3
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Doesn't say so in the patch notes so k.
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It says nothing at all about the specific functionality in the patch notes, why the fuck would it? Go read the red posts instead of assuming it just randomly changes whenever.
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wow sorry for expecting important facts in patch notes
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It doesn't even seem to say what the Villain mechanic is in the patch notes wtf.
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It's in the notes for his R what it actually does.
I'd rather they be concise. People can test those sorts of things easily enough just by playing a game or two and seeing that the villainy thing doesn't randomly change upon every kill.
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On August 20 2015 23:01 Numy wrote:
It doesn't even seem to say what the Villain mechanic is in the patch notes wtf.
"So like there's a thing, a passive, that we added to Garen so if like someone on the enemy team is fed you're kinda good against them. It's a good guy versus bad guy kind of thing. It's really cool and we promise that it'll make Garen fun and thematic and dynamic and not just the champ you play in the beginner tutorial."
I'll bet that within a couple days someone will find it's hilariously bugged, like someone suicides to a jungle camp then he gets extra damage, IDK.
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On August 20 2015 23:09 Caiada wrote:
It's in the notes for his R what it actually does.
I'd rather they be concise. People can test those sorts of things easily enough just by playing a game or two and seeing that the villainy thing doesn't randomly change upon every kill.
Without a way to easily test these kind of things I'd rather they actually be detailed than give notes that hardly tell you much.
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I feel like getting bloodrage on Darius, the passive mechanic that should make him to be able to do actual damage, is really really hard. The Decimate blade windup is extremely slow, and makes you lose out on one or two aa's of stacks;
He feel pretty awkward at the moment tbh.
I think the right combo would be: pull them in and slow them with e, aa, slow them again and aa reset with w, aa, aa/decimate, aa, ult.
I think Black Cleaver/Trinity Force, Deadman's Plate is mandatory on him to actually get to bloodrage.
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On August 20 2015 23:09 Caiada wrote:
It's in the notes for his R what it actually does.
I'd rather they be concise. People can test those sorts of things easily enough just by playing a game or two and seeing that the villainy thing doesn't randomly change upon every kill.
Why even give patch notes?Just say "hey guys we think x is in a better place now we changed him up a bit" and let people find out for themselves.
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On August 20 2015 23:33 Uldridge wrote:
I feel like getting bloodrage on Darius, the passive mechanic that should make him to be able to do actual damage, is really really hard. The Decimate blade windup is extremely slow, and makes you lose out on one or two aa's of stacks;
He feel pretty awkward at the moment tbh.
I think the right combo would be: pull them in and slow them with e, aa, slow them again and aa reset with w, aa, aa/decimate, aa, ult.
I think Black Cleaver/Trinity Force, Deadman's Plate is mandatory on him to actually get to bloodrage.
Q feels bad vs dashes, but otherwise, it's not that bad if you're spreading out autos. Hitting the blade is now notably harder unless you hold on to E or give up an AA though.
Bloodrage feels like it relies a lot on getting the first Ult kill or on really long weird fights that don't really happen regularly.
Cleaver is now applied by passive ticks, both the movespeed and pen, which I hadn't thought of. It should absolutely be first, yeah.
Leveling E is probably more useful than W now. It was always very close because of the damage increase of W leveling, but with the passive working with pen, E levels reducing the CD so much, and W only reducing the cooldown, I'm leaning towards E in most matchups. Unless they can't get away from W, in which case, a 5 second W is pretty good.
Titanic is an AA reset. So, obvious choice for second item, maybe first for all-ins or if you just want to push forever.
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Skarner perma banned before I even got a chance to play today LOL
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On August 20 2015 22:48 Caiada wrote:
It says nothing at all about the specific functionality in the patch notes, why the fuck would it? Go read the red posts instead of assuming it just randomly changes whenever.
I read both patch notes and those red posts, there's nothing about how it works, there's only "Enemies with the most recent kills is branded a Villain. Garen hates those." in patch notes and "Villainy's also set up so it won't change mid combat" in red posts summary. So what does it mean, that there's a cooldown? villain won't change as long as Garen is in "in combat" state? what if he is out of combat for 3 sec for example? If someone tested this please tell me because no time this week to check it out in game and Garen was kinda my new main (thx Slayer91)
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On August 21 2015 02:47 Chemiczny84 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 22:48 Caiada wrote:
It says nothing at all about the specific functionality in the patch notes, why the fuck would it? Go read the red posts instead of assuming it just randomly changes whenever. I read both patch notes and those red posts, there's nothing about how it works, there's only "Enemies with the most recent kills is branded a Villain. Garen hates those." in patch notes and "Villainy's also set up so it won't change mid combat" in red posts summary. So what does it mean, that there's a cooldown? villain won't change as long as Garen is in "in combat" state? what if he is out of combat for 3 sec for example? If someone tested this please tell me because no time this week to check it out in game and Garen was kinda my new main (thx Slayer91)
It's probably who has the longest active kill streak(maybe largest multikill adds into it?), which it wouldn't be able to properly update until fighting is over.
At least, if I was told to program it, that's how I would do it.
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Yeah but it is not described anywhre, the best I found was "AFAIK the villain is chosen to be the one with most kills in the last few minutes" which is a quote from a random redditor
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I really don't like how Riot's new design philosophy seems to be unique champions via everyone gets some sort of gimmicky minigame. (I've said this before)
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On August 21 2015 03:55 ticklishmusic wrote:
I really don't like how Riot's new design philosophy seems to be unique champions via everyone gets some sort of gimmicky minigame. (I've said this before)
Who else is there besides Bard? Fiora? I like it more than overloading a champion by adding everything to them, like Gnar or Kalista.
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Yea. I like new Skarner in every aspect aside from how his power is vested a lot in the pillars. And bard chimes are also a nuisance.
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The pillars are interesting. Let's them add a lot of potentially bullshitty things. It's not my favorite implementation because it has the possibility to be really centralizing in a not-fun way for all the other players in the game. If they're too good, they're obtrusive.
Darius is more interesting because he has a bunch of power locked behind getting an ult off or surviving a long fight and it's almost purely up to him playing according to the situation.
I'm open to anything that lets them put ridiculous power on champions in a fun way. GP's barrels, Fiora's vitals. We'll see where Skarner ends up after his almost inevitable nerf.
I gotta say though.... It makes me pretty scared for wtf ever they have in mind for Shyv.
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On August 21 2015 04:38 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 03:55 ticklishmusic wrote:
I really don't like how Riot's new design philosophy seems to be unique champions via everyone gets some sort of gimmicky minigame. (I've said this before) Who else is there besides Bard? Fiora? I like it more than overloading a champion by adding everything to them, like Gnar or Kalista.
Bard: run around, collect scrolls (and let your AD 2v1)
Kalista: tag team shoot stuff, etc (speaking of, Leona + Kalista is the most hilariously stupid lane ever)
Cass: stack your passive for more AP
Garen: kill the bad guy
Gnar: manage the rage bar
Fiora: hit the weakpoint
Skarner: hey, remember Twisted Treeline and Dominion?
Darius: let me stack bloodrage pls
Gangplank: I'm a pirate so barrels and gold doubloons (err, silver)
Some of it is fun and interesting, but a lot of it just screams gimmicky to me. What happened to really cool kits like Lee Sin and Lulu?
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Why would they change shyvana? She is like their 2nd or third best designed manaless champ?
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I think there's room in the game for both simple and more complicated kits. Calling something gimmicky is trivial; what's the actual problem? That's not rhetorical. I dunno what the actual problem with it is.
I like Shyv a lot obviously, but she's basically just a big ball of 'run at you and kill you or die trying.' I could see why they would want to change that. Dragon form has a lot of potential to do weird cool shit with. More Darius than Skarner or Garen, I hope.
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First impressions on garen aren't too good. Jungle clear is barely any better and it feels like your skill points except in R don't do anything.
You gain like 30 damage (total) if you rank E
You gain 25 damage if you rank Q
neither reduce cd anymore and you don't get anymore silence duration on q and the movement increase is nerfed
BC felt weak you are too squishy even with cinderhulk bc and his ad scaling isnt really good probably steraks is better and deadmans is good
ults on villain are good and lategame your E does good damage (not tHAT much more than old E and it takes longer to be as good) but probably he's nerfed because of W and Q nerfs.
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i think mordekaiser is stronger than anticipated
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Riot is buffing every champion that can make play right before Worlds l o l.
Syndra looks so strong, and Zed is back.
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On August 21 2015 04:53 Caiada wrote:
I think there's room in the game for both simple and more complicated kits. Calling something gimmicky is trivial; what's the actual problem? That's not rhetorical. I dunno what the actual problem with it is.
I like Shyv a lot obviously, but she's basically just a big ball of 'run at you and kill you or die trying.' I could see why they would want to change that. Dragon form has a lot of potential to do weird cool shit with. More Darius than Skarner or Garen, I hope.
The actual problem, IMO, is that it causes power levels to be unreliable. That is fine for pro play, like with Gnar, but IMO Gnar is a bad champion for the game just fundamentally because the rage transformation is just stupid for everything below LCS. I prefer when things are balanced for pro play, but when Gnar is a top 2-3 champion in his role for the last 8 months, and is not a high-skill champion, and has meh soloqueue winrates, I see that as a design flaw, and I also suspect Riot is hesitant to nerf him (which they should) because he would get even worse in soloqueue. RekSai is very similar in that way.
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Ok after watching QT play Morde, it's hilarious. I dunno if it's good (laning is really iffy), but it's hilarious. One Tforce/Sterak buffed Q lasthit one-shot a Rengar and his ghost cleaned up the fight.
I only see unreliable power levels as a problem if they're too easy to play around. Gnar's a great example; his bar is still too easy to manipulate in your favor especially at a pro level. And there's a large disparity.
Fiora's a nicer design. She either outplays her opponent and looks really good, or she fails to and looks bad. Darius. You either get a nice ult and are a big threat in the fight, or you don't and threaten to get 5 stacks, or you're behind and die. It feels wrapped up more in playing an individual fight well than something like Gnar where if you prep it right, you're 100% guaranteed to be Mega.
Then again, I look at everything at the pro level cause I suck at the game too much to worry about design for the rest of us.
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So Skarner is op. It's not even the fact that he's does so much more damage and he's better at ganking/fighting, which he is. It's his clear that gets me. There's no way they didn't notice how fast and how little damage Skarner takes on his first clear while testing him.
I'm still playing around with Morde. They suggest getting a relic shield first which makes sense since his laning phase is pretty bad.
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On August 21 2015 05:13 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 04:53 Caiada wrote:
I think there's room in the game for both simple and more complicated kits. Calling something gimmicky is trivial; what's the actual problem? That's not rhetorical. I dunno what the actual problem with it is.
I like Shyv a lot obviously, but she's basically just a big ball of 'run at you and kill you or die trying.' I could see why they would want to change that. Dragon form has a lot of potential to do weird cool shit with. More Darius than Skarner or Garen, I hope. The actual problem, IMO, is that it causes power levels to be unreliable. That is fine for pro play, like with Gnar, but IMO Gnar is a bad champion for the game just fundamentally because the rage transformation is just stupid for everything below LCS. I prefer when things are balanced for pro play, but when Gnar is a top 2-3 champion in his role for the last 8 months, and is not a high-skill champion, and has meh soloqueue winrates, I see that as a design flaw, and I also suspect Riot is hesitant to nerf him (which they should) because he would get even worse in soloqueue. RekSai is very similar in that way.
I can't even imagine what kind of nerf it would take for Rek'sai to be bad in competitive, tremor sense is perhaps the best ability in the game when you are coordinated
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On August 21 2015 04:53 Caiada wrote:
I think there's room in the game for both simple and more complicated kits. Calling something gimmicky is trivial; what's the actual problem? That's not rhetorical. I dunno what the actual problem with it is.
I like Shyv a lot obviously, but she's basically just a big ball of 'run at you and kill you or die trying.' I could see why they would want to change that. Dragon form has a lot of potential to do weird cool shit with. More Darius than Skarner or Garen, I hope.
Obviously they'll have you running around the map to collect dragon genes to level up your dragon form.
+ Show Spoiler [reference] +
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Man that was a good game.
ty for that phyvo.
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On August 21 2015 05:15 Caiada wrote:
Ok after watching QT play Morde, it's hilarious. I dunno if it's good (laning is really iffy), but it's hilarious. One Tforce/Sterak buffed Q lasthit one-shot a Rengar and his ghost cleaned up the fight.
I only see unreliable power levels as a problem if they're too easy to play around. Gnar's a great example; his bar is still too easy to manipulate in your favor especially at a pro level. And there's a large disparity.
Fiora's a nicer design. She either outplays her opponent and looks really good, or she fails to and looks bad. Darius. You either get a nice ult and are a big threat in the fight, or you don't and threaten to get 5 stacks, or you're behind and die. It feels wrapped up more in playing an individual fight well than something like Gnar where if you prep it right, you're 100% guaranteed to be Mega.
Then again, I look at everything at the pro level cause I suck at the game too much to worry about design for the rest of us.
On August 21 2015 05:17 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 05:13 cLutZ wrote:On August 21 2015 04:53 Caiada wrote:
I think there's room in the game for both simple and more complicated kits. Calling something gimmicky is trivial; what's the actual problem? That's not rhetorical. I dunno what the actual problem with it is.
I like Shyv a lot obviously, but she's basically just a big ball of 'run at you and kill you or die trying.' I could see why they would want to change that. Dragon form has a lot of potential to do weird cool shit with. More Darius than Skarner or Garen, I hope. The actual problem, IMO, is that it causes power levels to be unreliable. That is fine for pro play, like with Gnar, but IMO Gnar is a bad champion for the game just fundamentally because the rage transformation is just stupid for everything below LCS. I prefer when things are balanced for pro play, but when Gnar is a top 2-3 champion in his role for the last 8 months, and is not a high-skill champion, and has meh soloqueue winrates, I see that as a design flaw, and I also suspect Riot is hesitant to nerf him (which they should) because he would get even worse in soloqueue. RekSai is very similar in that way. I can't even imagine what kind of nerf it would take for Rek'sai to be bad in competitive, tremor sense is perhaps the best ability in the game when you are coordinated
Same. That is the problem though, because they need to nerf Gnar and RekSai for the competitive scene to open up a little bit, but they really don't because that would make them trash tier in soloqueue (which I dont care about), and historically they seem to delay for a long time nerfs on champions in that situation (except olaf, which, actually, great job on that last ult change Riot).
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So Sterak's increases Base AD and therefore Trifoce proc damage and stuff?
That sounds incredibly stupid to me but OK. What's the point of calling it a base stat if it gets increased?
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United States37500 Posts
Played new Garen in Top vs Riven (enemy Lee Jungle) and felt rather underwhelming. Yes, E does more damage but I used Q a lot more as a "poke" and I could really tell that Riven was far more mobile due to the silence nerf. meh
General thoughts about the new items? More specifically, I want to know what champion(s) you guys think are good with Deadman's Plate, Sterak's Gage, Titanic Hydra.
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On August 21 2015 05:47 NeoIllusions wrote:
Played new Garen in Top vs Riven (enemy Lee Jungle) and felt rather underwhelming. Yes, E does more damage but I used Q a lot more as a "poke" and I could really tell that Riven was far more mobile due to the silence nerf. meh
General thoughts about the new items? More specifically, I want to know what champion(s) you guys think are good with Deadman's Plate, Sterak's Gage, Titanic Hydra.
deadman's is like my go to jungle armor item right now over randuins. hecarim/vi/shyv.
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DMP is basically a Randuin's replacement if you're only going one armor item. Treat it as such. Worth getting early on tanks that make strong use of the speed to initiate but don't necessarily want RG.
Sterak is good on Garen, decent on Darius, disgusting on Skarner. Have yet to try it on Jax but looks promising? Probably really good on Irelia if you won't just be splitting all game. Worthy of consideration on every Tforce user aside from like... Ezreal. Probably worth mentioning as a fringe item against burst on Tforce ADCs. The real show is on guys like Skarner though. Less cool outside of Tforce, but still good. Seems like a solid pickup on cinderhulk junglers to be an unkillable meatwall.
Titanic's health scaling feels really strong. It's also an AA reset, which is pretty nice. Fantastic on Darius; unsure of anybody else.
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On August 21 2015 05:47 NeoIllusions wrote:
Played new Garen in Top vs Riven (enemy Lee Jungle) and felt rather underwhelming. Yes, E does more damage but I used Q a lot more as a "poke" and I could really tell that Riven was far more mobile due to the silence nerf. meh
General thoughts about the new items? More specifically, I want to know what champion(s) you guys think are good with Deadman's Plate, Sterak's Gage, Titanic Hydra.
Yeah garen used to rek riven past level 11 but it's probably not the case any more
steraks is good on most engaging melees who aren't pure tanks, deadmans similarly. havent tried hydra yet
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I checked the Darius in my last game. BC/Titanic/DMP/boots at that point, something like 3800 HP, and the Titanic Crescent did 400+ damage according to the tooltip. CD is 20s rather than 10 but that thing's gotta hurt.
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Go play Darius or Skarner and go Tforce/Sterak/Titanic. You only get the 2 autos and it's the most selfish of builds, but boy are those some good autos.
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On August 21 2015 05:17 Sonnington wrote:
So Skarner is op. It's not even the fact that he's does so much more damage and he's better at ganking/fighting, which he is. It's his clear that gets me. There's no way they didn't notice how fast and how little damage Skarner takes on his first clear while testing him.
I'm still playing around with Morde. They suggest getting a relic shield first which makes sense since his laning phase is pretty bad.
honestly wouldn't be surprised if they overbuffed him so that people will play him and they plan to tune him down by 5.18
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Thought I'd save people some work comparing garens.
BASE STATS: Lost 11.75hp/lvl 31.33g/lvl Gains 1ad/lvl 36 g/lvl ad 0.3 armour/lvl or 6g/lvl
Result: ++10.67g/lvl
Passive: No change
Q: Flat nerf of 1s Silence, 1s movement speed.
W: Resist buff when fully stacked until 300 bonus resists. Nearly always a buff. Tenacity removed so a nerf.
R: Straight buff against villain.
OLD GAREN E
Level 1: 60 2.1*AD
Level 3: 135 2.4*AD
Level 5: 210 2.7*AD
Level 7: 285 3.0*AD
Level 9: 360 3.3*AD
NEW GAREN E - SINGLE TARGET
Level 1: 70 1.7*AD 93 2.27*AD
Level 3: 90 1.75*AD 120 2.33*AD
Level 4: 108 2.1*AD 144 2.8*AD
Level 5: 132 2.16*AD 176 2.88*AD
Level 7: 187 2.59*AD 249 3.45*AD
Level 9: 210 2.66*AD 280 3.55*AD
Level 10: 240 3.04*AD 320 4.05*AD
Level 13: 270 3.42*AD 360 4.56*AD
Level 16: 300 3.8*AD 400 5.07*AD
As you can see its a straight nerf in any AoE situation except at level 16+ with >120AD. (50% AD-->E advantage so if you have 120 more AD new garen will E will do 50 more).
Because the laning phase and jungling both heavily use the AoE E it's a nerf for those phases of the game. In many teamfights you'll be hitting more than one target and it's a nerf for that unless you target the villain.
On a single target after level 10 you have a 75% AD-40 damage lead, after level 13 you have a 126% AD lead and after level 16 you have a 40+177% AD lead.
Parsing rough ADs around those levels as 100/150/200 you can expect about ~35 more damage after level 10, ~200 more damage after level 13 and ~400 more damage at level 16.
One issue is that assumes you hit for the full 3 seconds while the silence lasts only 1.5 seconds.
This seems just to be a nerf to garens early and midgame but better lategame although it can be hard to isolate targets and also to focus the villain.
Jungling felt a bit weak considering only average ganks and weak clearing. Laning got nerfed so his hard matchups are even harder.
My guess: Probably not worth picking anymore. rip
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On August 21 2015 04:54 Slayer91 wrote:
First impressions on garen aren't too good. Jungle clear is barely any better and it feels like your skill points except in R don't do anything.
You gain like 30 damage (total) if you rank E
You gain 25 damage if you rank Q
neither reduce cd anymore and you don't get anymore silence duration on q and the movement increase is nerfed
BC felt weak you are too squishy even with cinderhulk bc and his ad scaling isnt really good probably steraks is better and deadmans is good
ults on villain are good and lategame your E does good damage (not tHAT much more than old E and it takes longer to be as good) but probably he's nerfed because of W and Q nerfs.
Agreed, Garen feels weaker then he used to. I don't like the whole villain mechanic because it does nothing for you for a decent chunk of the game and damage against squishies (which'll be the villain lategame) was never Garen's core problem. They even excaberated his core problems with the Q and W nerfs. If they'd have given him the jump on Q and kept everything the same it would've been great but..
Overall, I'm sad.
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I actually didn't think he needed any buffs, was probably an OP or strong top lane champion but I can understand why they wanted to change him, no counterplay for sure, if you were viktor good luck doing anything in the game m8 garen can just flank your team go on you and you're dun m8. You can't even kill him because he's going to be taking 30% reduced damage for the whole duration that he can one shot you in while gutting your damage with silence.
From a gameplay point of view the changes are probably fine but they just nerfed his early and midgame so much for no good reason I would say. It's bad enough when somebody picks rumble or gnar and you can't get on them for the entire game, at least before at level 13 you had 4.5 s move boost and 2.5 s silence and could start to come back against many ranged champs.
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They were way too conservative on his spin numbers. The single-target stuff is just not reliable at all for the fights he is taking at any point in the game. Worse though, it just doesn't feel Garen-y, and it's nerfed for what *was* fun, just sitting in their team or a minion wave spinning in their faces.
I hope they make the spin a lot more ridiculous in 5.17.
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From a game design perspective I think it's dumb taking away from Q and W 2 abilities which already didn't have a great identity and adding it to the E, feels like he's all E R top heavy if you know what I mean.
2 ability champ doesn't feel good conceptually. He was well rounded with great strength in all 5 slots before.
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I had hoped that in their rework they would've focused more on his Q/W and passive. I understand that a champion with a silence who can oneshot you is dumb and they wanted to move away from that, but he could be played as a kind of harrier champion, weaving in and out of fights untill you're weak enough to kill. He'd probably need another cleanse for that to happen though, and from reading the lol forums thread on his rework apparantly his redesigners thought Garen was unpeelable (??). Often didn't work but it's an interesting niche that right now is kind of solely occupied by Nidalee, and I wouldn't call that a piece of great design.
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Teut your garen posts are so sexy.
Can I be your little sister forever?
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I think it's fine to have Q/W be simple and not that unique, as long there are suitably fun/interesting things in the rest of the kit. Other decently well designed champs are already kinda like this. I think Darius is/was great and his W is basically just an AA reset with a slow.
It's a little too cautious to think that every skill needs to be a key piece of champion identity when, as long as you have cool shit like Garen's E/R, the rest can just work in service to those.
That being said, W is too boring for me. But it was always a bit too boring for me, so nothing new there.
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On August 21 2015 10:18 Ketara wrote:
Teut your garen posts are so sexy.
Can I be your little sister forever?
I can't accept given that I'd get involved with some very jealous Thai/farang girls.
Jax with steraks seems real good. Pretty much just 1v5'd with trinity/steraks/FoTM/CDR boots/hexdrinker
3400 hp+340 FoTM+1020 Steraks shield+hex shield and like +60 base damage which is like 300+trinity procs
R gives so much resists too like +100/+80 or something stupid
jax with 15k EHP is lols
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I want Teut to make a Garen guide.
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So I've played a few games as Morde "ADC." First game was with Sona. We got shit on early then eventually came back during team fights. Second game was with a Garen, we got less shit on and carried moderately hard. Third game I had a Volibear support and we absolutely dumped on the lane. You really need a tanky/initiation support. Which should be fairly obvious, but when you get it, it's a really potent combination.
It makes me wonder what kind of champ select mind games people will come up with. I really don't like having him in the bot lane.
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Lulu counters Morde pretty hard, she's picked plenty now but probably gonna get picked even more
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How many of the damage/hp items should i buy on Renekton?
There's black cleaver, titanic hydra and sterak's gage, and I am not sure how many of them is good enough damage.
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Counter to Morde? Pick Vayne and harass him constantly while he pushes, get a gank. You now win the game because you're a Vayne with a pretty free lane. He's honestly not good enough to be worth countering any more than that. If Q weren't overtuned, I don't think he'd be popular. He'd probably be good enough to consider, especially in fast push, but certainly not popular.
On August 21 2015 14:02 gobbledydook wrote:
How many of the damage/hp items should i buy on Renekton?
There's black cleaver, titanic hydra and sterak's gage, and I am not sure how many of them is good enough damage.
Depends on the game and your comp more than anything. I'd say at least Titanic/Cleaver. They're very efficient together. I'm not sure his base AD and base AD scaling is enough to justify Sterak's cost though.
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Doesn't Renekton want to be buying resists over HP?
If you want somebody who likes damage+HP, seems like Jax is your man. Or Rammus. Or Shyvana maybe?
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On August 21 2015 05:47 NeoIllusions wrote:
Played new Garen in Top vs Riven (enemy Lee Jungle) and felt rather underwhelming. Yes, E does more damage but I used Q a lot more as a "poke" and I could really tell that Riven was far more mobile due to the silence nerf. meh
General thoughts about the new items? More specifically, I want to know what champion(s) you guys think are good with Deadman's Plate, Sterak's Gage, Titanic Hydra.
Dead man plate on Olaf,Mundo,vi, and singed all have been working out pretty well for me. Singed is an absolute terror with it but Olaf fits into his build path better
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On August 21 2015 14:46 Ketara wrote:
Doesn't Renekton want to be buying resists over HP?
If you want somebody who likes damage+HP, seems like Jax is your man. Or Rammus. Or Shyvana maybe?
What about a build that looks like titanic hydra/cleaver/visage/dead man's plate/guardian angel? Sounds like enough resists for everything and enough hp to get good hydra procs...
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United States37500 Posts
On August 21 2015 14:02 gobbledydook wrote:
How many of the damage/hp items should i buy on Renekton?
There's black cleaver, titanic hydra and sterak's gage, and I am not sure how many of them is good enough damage.
I think all three of those items are great on Renek. Round off your six items with Deadman's and Banshee's/Visage.
I build my bruisers with more offensive than defensive, especially in solo queue where you can't always trust your team to do damage. In 5s, I would be ok building full tank if our comp called for it (or if you're playing something like Top Maokai). If you find three off items is too many, I'd probably drop Sterak's Gage for another resist item.
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Prob wouldn't get GA on Renek. You can still get ye olde sunfire.
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United States37500 Posts
Sunfire is the shittiest passive out of the armor items by far now. Esp if you plan to get a Hydra of some sort, you don't need the Immolate.
Deadman's, Omen, Thornmail, pick 1-3.
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Man, is that what the armor items are now?
Are the new armor items just better than the old ones?
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On August 21 2015 17:01 Ketara wrote:
Man, is that what the armor items are now?
Are the new armor items just better than the old ones?
Randuins is still legit good(in certain situations which are pretty common but not necessarily common enough to say it's better) but yes the new armor items are "just plain better".
DMP has move move speed on it at full momentum than boots 2 and does over 3 seconds worth of sunfire damage to enemies and slows them when you discharge.
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Tornmail is shit item now IMO, maybe only rammus or someone else like him (cant recall) can take advantage of that item to justify the cost.
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You can't get the DMP discharge if somebody slows you on the way in right?
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Considering Jax's resistances from ult don't update after the cast, do you wait for Sterak's shield to get triggered before ulting or do you ult as normal? You've got to eat 1800 damage at higher levels to trigger it (and that's post-resistnces) so it's probably not worth it compared to just casting it as you walk in now that I think about it...
(Also the wiki says his ult's passive triggers on-hit effects like Muramana.
So with Sated Devourer you hit once, apply Muramana's damage, then hit again, apply Muramana's damage twice, apply ult stacks twice triggering the magic damage, which triggers Muramana... once or twice? So a single aa-W combo would trigger Muramana's effect at least 4 times, maybe 5? That's some brutal burst. But you need Muramana + Sated Devourer from jungle Jax so can't work.)
You get the DMP discharge no matter what, but it only slows if you're at 100 stacks. Which means if you don't mind ulting early as Olaf to avoid getting slowed, you get that 100 damage + slow discharge for sure.
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So, with the help of Gahlo, Goumindong and the fact that several of my classes were cancelled this week, I made a thing. I went a little overboard.
It's a comprehensive Lux spreadsheet:
+ Show Spoiler +
After I spent way WAY too long making and bugtesting it, I plugged in a typical Lux build (Athenes Hat Void Zhonya Sorcshoes) to see what was better as a 6th item between Morello, Liandry and Ludens Echo.
That only took about 5 minutes.
Here's what I found:
+ Show Spoiler +
For damage: (vs. typical late game ADC stats)
Morellos was the best for sustained damage. (unsurprising)
Liandry beat Ludens at burst not counting the Liandry burn damage at all. (slightly surprising)
Ludens beat Liandry at poke DPS, but Liandry beat Ludens at DPS once you're in auto attack range and counting damage from passive.
For defense:
Ludens gets you 37 more flat movespeed.
Liandry gets you about 400 more Effective HP vs. standard enemy pen values.
For regen:
Luden/Liandry can actually stay in a teamfight without going OOM longer than Morellos (very surprising, the bonus CDR on Morellos drains mana faster than the bonus regen replaces it)
Although without counting mana costs in your poke DPS Morellos has better sustained poke damage than Ludens, when you factor in the extra mana spent due to more CDR, Ludens is actually more efficient at poke damage, and Liandry is just barely under Morello (also very surprising)
If you add a blue buff and compare the three with blue buff, Ludens/Liandry's sustained damage just beats Morello handedly. (unsurprising)
Conclusions:
Liandry is a better 6th item if you anticipate short dive-centric fights.
Ludens is a better 6th item if you anticipate poke wars.
Morellos is really only good as a 6th item if you need the Grievous Wounds debuff, but if you need it the damage loss by not getting one of the above two is more than acceptable.
WHAT DO YOU THINK GUYS? AM I CRAZY?
Also if anybody wants to show me somewhere I can put it so you can download it and dick around and see if I did anything wrong I'll put it up and you can play with it too.
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Technically Morello's gives you more shields and cc so better survivability.
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Not liking the size thing on DMP, it's a very "noisy", distracting effect to have pop in a close fight.
@Ketara: good job, now make one for GP so I don't have to. Chop chop.
edit: now that I think about it, this seems like exactly the kind of calculator that ought to already exists somewhere on the internet. Did you look before you did all this work? :p
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On August 21 2015 20:24 Alaric wrote:
Technically Morello's gives you more shields and cc so better survivability.
Well, using my fancy Lux spreadsheet, I can tell you that the extra shields from Morellos CDR only beats Liandry HP after 35 seconds.
And I mean that's what CDR runes are for, of course.
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Is liandrys just super underrated as an item now? You no longer take a massive ap hit grabbing it, and haunting guise is obviously a good item to get early. There seems to be much more use in getting an early haunting guise on a lot of champs now, and you don't feel as bad upgrading it eventually.
I hate not being able to play and test all this stuff
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On August 21 2015 20:46 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 20:24 Alaric wrote:
Technically Morello's gives you more shields and cc so better survivability. Well, using my fancy Lux spreadsheet, I can tell you that the extra shields from Morellos CDR only beats Liandry HP after 35 seconds. And I mean that's what CDR runes are for, of course.
Don't be selfish, remember it's AoE and you can cc people diving your buddies too!
(I think Viktor, Kassadin, Orianna, etc. would maybe benefit more from the CDR so they can shield more often, for example, but their cooldowns are arguably already shorter on these spells.)
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On August 21 2015 21:18 JazzVortical wrote:Is liandrys just super underrated as an item now? You no longer take a massive ap hit grabbing it, and haunting guise is obviously a good item to get early. There seems to be much more use in getting an early haunting guise on a lot of champs now, and you don't feel as bad upgrading it eventually. I hate not being able to play and test all this stuff
It's pretty underrated and should be considered a lot more frequently than it is, particularly as a last item. I also think Liandry's-heavy champs like Karthus/Zyra/Brand/Mal/Kog are notably better this patch because of the prevalence of all these big health items.
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On August 21 2015 18:37 Alaric wrote:Considering Jax's resistances from ult don't update after the cast, do you wait for Sterak's shield to get triggered before ulting or do you ult as normal? You've got to eat 1800 damage at higher levels to trigger it (and that's post-resistnces) so it's probably not worth it compared to just casting it as you walk in now that I think about it... (Also the wiki says his ult's passive triggers on-hit effects like Muramana. So with Sated Devourer you hit once, apply Muramana's damage, then hit again, apply Muramana's damage twice, apply ult stacks twice triggering the magic damage, which triggers Muramana... once or twice? So a single aa-W combo would trigger Muramana's effect at least 4 times, maybe 5? That's some brutal burst. But you need Muramana + Sated Devourer from jungle Jax so can't work.) You get the DMP discharge no matter what, but it only slows if you're at 100 stacks. Which means if you don't mind ulting early as Olaf to avoid getting slowed, you get that 100 damage + slow discharge for sure.
Jax ult scales with bonus AD and Sterak's gives base AD so Sterak post-shield buff doesn't matter for when you ult.
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On August 21 2015 21:37 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 20:46 Ketara wrote:On August 21 2015 20:24 Alaric wrote:
Technically Morello's gives you more shields and cc so better survivability. Well, using my fancy Lux spreadsheet, I can tell you that the extra shields from Morellos CDR only beats Liandry HP after 35 seconds. And I mean that's what CDR runes are for, of course. Don't be selfish, remember it's AoE and you can cc people diving your buddies too! (I think Viktor, Kassadin, Orianna, etc. would maybe benefit more from the CDR so they can shield more often, for example, but their cooldowns are arguably already shorter on these spells.)
Saying that you're going to get more shielding on allies because of the shorter cooldown is conjecture though.
You could also say that you're going to get more shielding on allies with Liandries because the health will let you survive the enemy team long enough to cast a second shield, or you could say that you're going to get more shielding on allies with Ludens because the movespeed will help you dodge an Ahri charm that would have resulted in you dying without getting a shield off.
That's not to say that more CDR doesn't have some utility that isn't represented by pure math, which I know is your point and is totes true.
But running the numbers makes me think that it's probably valuable to take CDR/level blues and then just get either Ludens or Liandry (or both and skip Zhonya).
Then getting Morello vs. a Vlad/Mundo isn't such an efficient buy, but you should know if you're going to need that in champ select and then you can change your rune page to MR.
I originally started on this spreadsheet project because I wanted to correctly calculate how good Liandries is, and while I did a lot more than just that, I can tell you with some certainty that Liandry is really fucking good now.
The burn damage is still kind of shitty if you're not a champion like Brand/Rumble/Singed/etc, but apparently for Lux at least Liandry is outdamaging Ludens without counting the burn at all, and also has the burn and 300 HP on it.
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On August 21 2015 18:37 Alaric wrote:Considering Jax's resistances from ult don't update after the cast, do you wait for Sterak's shield to get triggered before ulting or do you ult as normal? You've got to eat 1800 damage at higher levels to trigger it (and that's post-resistnces) so it's probably not worth it compared to just casting it as you walk in now that I think about it... (Also the wiki says his ult's passive triggers on-hit effects like Muramana. So with Sated Devourer you hit once, apply Muramana's damage, then hit again, apply Muramana's damage twice, apply ult stacks twice triggering the magic damage, which triggers Muramana... once or twice? So a single aa-W combo would trigger Muramana's effect at least 4 times, maybe 5? That's some brutal burst. But you need Muramana + Sated Devourer from jungle Jax so can't work.) You get the DMP discharge no matter what, but it only slows if you're at 100 stacks. Which means if you don't mind ulting early as Olaf to avoid getting slowed, you get that 100 damage + slow discharge for sure.
1800 is max level, you want to have around 3600 hp by that point anyway. Losing half your hp is nothing in a teamfight
you should be able to tell when you're getting bursted, it lasts 8 seconds shouldn't be too hard to time
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I remember reading last thread about Fiora items but I can't remember. As your "defensive" item what are people going these days? Hydra -> BC -> LW seems like core offensive if I'm understanding right but with all these new tank items i don't know what is good anymore.
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Liandry's burn was always really good; it was just never justifiable because you were missing possibly 70 AP getting it over even Zhonya's. Now you lose 20 AP worst-case and get a very good mpen passive and a *really* good burn. I've been singing its praises for like 3 patches now, lol. Tear/Liandry's/Rylai's Karthus is the future :V
On August 21 2015 22:11 Numy wrote:
I remember reading last thread about Fiora items but I can't remember. As your "defensive" item what are people going these days? Hydra -> BC -> LW seems like core offensive if I'm understanding right but with all these new tank items i don't know what is good anymore.
Seems a bit early for LW if you need defensive stuff, I would usually get BT third. That is often enough defense to survive a while. Otherwise, DMP is probably ideal for an armor item because movespeed, and Maw or Visage for MR, depending on just how tanky you need to be. Alaric also made me aware Titanic Hydra's health scaling is really really good, so if you're predicting fights to not last enough to get a lot of QAAs off, definitely get it.
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United States11390 Posts
On August 21 2015 22:11 Numy wrote:
I remember reading last thread about Fiora items but I can't remember. As your "defensive" item what are people going these days? Hydra -> BC -> LW seems like core offensive if I'm understanding right but with all these new tank items i don't know what is good anymore.
BT is great third item as the extra sustain is amazing though a bunch of koreans lately have also been playing around with ER too. Hexdrinker is also situationally good vs ap threats too.
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Oh sorry I didn't mean you get LW that early. Just as a general "offensive trio" that I thought I'd want on her. Hexdrinker is something I've been experimenting on a lot of my champs, idk why I forgot about it :<. Ok I'll try out BT and DMP if I need armour.
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On August 21 2015 22:13 Caiada wrote:Liandry's burn was always really good; it was just never justifiable because you were missing possibly 70 AP getting it over even Zhonya's. Now you lose 20 AP worst-case and get a very good mpen passive and a *really* good burn. I've been singing its praises for like 3 patches now, lol. Tear/Liandry's/Rylai's Karthus is the future :V Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 22:11 Numy wrote:
I remember reading last thread about Fiora items but I can't remember. As your "defensive" item what are people going these days? Hydra -> BC -> LW seems like core offensive if I'm understanding right but with all these new tank items i don't know what is good anymore. Seems a bit early for LW if you need defensive stuff, I would usually get BT third. That is often enough defense to survive a while. Otherwise, DMP is probably ideal for an armor item because movespeed, and Maw or Visage for MR, depending on just how tanky you need to be. Alaric also made me aware Titanic Hydra's health scaling is really really good, so if you're predicting fights to not last enough to get a lot of QAAs off, definitely get it.
The burn damage is heavily dependent on champion kit. The difference in how much damage the burn is going to do between Rumble and Lux is huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge.
Lux is a good poster child for Ludens vs. Liandry though, because Lux is heavily favored towards Ludens (can get 1 proc per rotation so its a big increase to her overall DPS), and heavily disfavored towards Liandry (long cooldowns and no good ways to slow people), and by the numbers Liandry is still looking to be better on her in teamfight damage.
For poking Ludens is better, but that's because on Lux you're poking with only one spell and its getting a Ludens proc every single time.
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On August 21 2015 22:31 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 22:13 Caiada wrote:Liandry's burn was always really good; it was just never justifiable because you were missing possibly 70 AP getting it over even Zhonya's. Now you lose 20 AP worst-case and get a very good mpen passive and a *really* good burn. I've been singing its praises for like 3 patches now, lol. Tear/Liandry's/Rylai's Karthus is the future :V On August 21 2015 22:11 Numy wrote:
I remember reading last thread about Fiora items but I can't remember. As your "defensive" item what are people going these days? Hydra -> BC -> LW seems like core offensive if I'm understanding right but with all these new tank items i don't know what is good anymore. Seems a bit early for LW if you need defensive stuff, I would usually get BT third. That is often enough defense to survive a while. Otherwise, DMP is probably ideal for an armor item because movespeed, and Maw or Visage for MR, depending on just how tanky you need to be. Alaric also made me aware Titanic Hydra's health scaling is really really good, so if you're predicting fights to not last enough to get a lot of QAAs off, definitely get it. The burn damage is heavily dependent on champion kit. The difference in how much damage the burn is going to do between Rumble and Lux is huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge.
Oh, yeah, for sure. But the champs its good on, it's pretty damn good on. But now like... Ori can get Liandry's. And Karthus can. AP Kog. Those are the only ones I play, but there's others. It was basically only good on Mal/Brand/Rumble/maybe Zyra before.
I only play Lux in ARAM, where Liandry's burn is hilarious. But Lux in ARAM is always hilarious.
Edit: One thing I haven't seen considered a lot when talking about Randuin's vs DMP is the aspd slow on Randuin's. It doesn't make up the difference in EHP, I'm pretty sure, but it's notable, especially with FH nerfs.
Statikk looking into buffing Darius Q damage. Seems appropriate; the rest of the kit feels pretty solid but Q base is so low now. Probably slightly nerf the scaling so he doesn't ohko kids with Titanic/Q/W/Ult.
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on paper Dead Man's Plate seems like the least impressive/exciting of the new items but from first impressions using them in actual games it definitely felt the strongest.
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Playing around with the target stats some more, it looks like the tankier the target gets, the better Liandry is in comparison to Ludens.
Liandry is interesting maths wise because the flat Mpen favors low MR targets, but the burn favors high HP targets, so it's best against tanks who are just stacking HP.
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On August 22 2015 00:24 Ketara wrote:
Playing around with the target stats some more, it looks like the tankier the target gets, the better Liandry is in comparison to Ludens.
Liandry is interesting maths wise because the flat Mpen favors low MR targets, but the burn favors high HP targets, so it's best against tanks who are just stacking HP.
I thought it was obvious liandrys is better vs tanks...
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Not necessarily, because the more MR the target has the less the flat mpen changes the damage.
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On August 22 2015 01:04 Ketara wrote:
Not necessarily, because the more MR the target has the less the flat mpen changes the damage.
And Probably that the flat MPen is generally more damage than the burn make it a slightly surprising result.
Its probably a combination of two things. As an opponent gets more MR they will have more HP left over after every ability and so take more burn damage. Small amounts of MR change can mean large amount of post combo HP which has a large percentage increase on the burn damage.
Ludens of course doesn't have that tempering effect and so doesn't scale as well against high MR targets. Plus the pen is still legit strong. With no Mpen in runes, void staff, and sorc shoes, the 15 MPen on iandrys is worth a 7.8% damage increase against a 200 MR target. If your combo does more than 1282 + 1.9 AP (and most AP champs will do that. Lux certainly does) then the MR shred portion of Liandrys alone is worth more than the Ludens proc.
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The pen is definitely underrated, though Luden's is a bit undervalued in that particular scenario because it's often a siege and poking tool, which is not gonna use your full combo and values the AoE a little.
QT's playing a Morde game and had -1 AP until he bought a Sheen. The numbers, they're spaghetti. Also, he really does not get the dragon... It's basically just a tower-tanking tool, and if you happen to get in a fight, cool, it AoE's hard. Just smash it into the turret, take it and roam though. It's got 3k health; it should be a free turret unless they defend hard; if they do, your jungler comes after the dragon and you dive them.
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Trying out Fiora again, really like her except her ulti. That feels so meh. What runes are you guys running on her?
Morde drag is def just tower tanking it seems. It's kind of impossible to counter push unless you got lots of ranged dps.
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Can you promote the dragon ghost?
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On August 22 2015 02:54 Goumindong wrote:
Can you promote the dragon ghost?
And does it get Baron buff?
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With riots spaghetti code you never know
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huh i got chat restricted once no reward 4 me boys this year u showed me riot
man really 2 threads thats too hard my bad amigos
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Fiora runes? I go standard AD stuff because I keep putting off CDR blues. AD reds/quints, MR blues, health/armor yellows. Scaling CDR blues are probably better excepting difficult matchups.
Flame/TrAce go 6 flat CDR blues, 5%, which makes enough sense. Leaves room in your build to get SV/BC and not overcap.
The delayed payoff of the ult feels really shitty if you're behind or if you don't even get it off. It's fun turning shit you otherwise wouldn't be able to turn though.
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I've played the new fiora a fair bit and her damage is just ludicrous from level 3 onwards. You can easily allin and beat even the strongest lane bullies thanks to cc immunity.
I get Tiamat and leave it at that then into lucidity boots and BC if I'm ahead.
Having 40 CDR makes your chase and escaping with q absolutely lol worthy. After that finish hydra and build whatever you want.
If your enemy is at 60 % health in lane after two vital procs click r on them and kill them as they helplessly try to run or get outdamaged hard
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Ye I noticed in my games I could bully super hard in the early levels if you just use your immunity right. Sounds like I need to buy some CDR runes. I still have the rune setup from season 2 I think with AD Reds/quits,MR Blues,AR yellows. Unfortunately my team shit the bed every game but still managed to get some sweet early kills off in those games. The Q seems super strong. Are you guys maxing W second or E?
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Q with champions or in a wave is hilarious. So much gapclose. And it procs on-hits. Such a crazy fun skill.
I go E second for the slow; 2 seconds off the CD on it is alright too. W damage increase is pretty meh, and CD doesn't decrease much.
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On August 21 2015 21:18 JazzVortical wrote:Is liandrys just super underrated as an item now? You no longer take a massive ap hit grabbing it, and haunting guise is obviously a good item to get early. There seems to be much more use in getting an early haunting guise on a lot of champs now, and you don't feel as bad upgrading it eventually. I hate not being able to play and test all this stuff
There was a reddit thread, and I didn't check the math or content so don't ask, that proclaimed that Liandry iss the 2nd most damaging AP item now.
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i dont believe them
they are probably assuming that you dont just fire all spells in 1 rotation
ok boys you can keep liandries debuff up at all times and focus the team member with the highest hp
just like in diablo3 boys so easy
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You don't get Liandry's on champs that don't have something that either procs it constantly
(Brand/Malz/Zyra/Rumble/Anivia but it's bad on her/probably Swain but I don't care about Swain)
or have low CD spammable AoE spells (Karthus/Ori/Lissandra/AP Kog)
The stats are ridiculously efficient anyway.
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On August 22 2015 05:31 Numy wrote:
Ye I noticed in my games I could bully super hard in the early levels if you just use your immunity right. Sounds like I need to buy some CDR runes. I still have the rune setup from season 2 I think with AD Reds/quits,MR Blues,AR yellows. Unfortunately my team shit the bed every game but still managed to get some sweet early kills off in those games. The Q seems super strong. Are you guys maxing W second or E?
E second. Points in E reduces the CD by 2 seconds per level, gives a better slow, and more crit damage. In contrast, the W only reduces the CD by 1 second and gives 40 more damage per level.
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On August 22 2015 10:07 Slayer91 wrote:
i dont believe them
they are probably assuming that you dont just fire all spells in 1 rotation
ok boys you can keep liandries debuff up at all times and focus the team member with the highest hp
just like in diablo3 boys so easy
Okay, so here's some analysis from my fancy new Lux spreadsheet:
If we take a typical level 18 Lux with Morello+Deathcap+Void+Ludens+Liandry (all the big damage items), and look at her attacking a typical ADC.
Her burst combo does 2741 damage.
Her sustained DPS is 384.
What I'm gonna do is do these same calculations five times, but each time remove one of those five items so we can see in what order each of the five items is increasing her damage:
+ Show Spoiler +
Without Deathcap
Burst: 2028
Sustained: 276
Without Void
Burst: 1994
Sustained: 275
Without Liandry
Burst: 2198
Sustained: 305
Without Morello
Burst: 2480
Sustained: 269
Without Ludens
Burst: 2219
Sustained: 304
So, here's the conclusions of which item is having the biggest effect on her damage.
For Burst:
#1 - Void
#2 - Deathcap
#3 - Liandry
#4 - Ludens
#5 - Morello
For Sustained:
#1 - Morello
#2 - Void
#3 - Deathcap
#4 - Ludens
#5 - Liandry
Note that these figures are vs. squishy target stats. If you change it to being vs. a tank, the amount that Void > Deathcap increases, while the amount that Liandry > Ludens decreases. But even vs. typical tank stats the placements are the same.
There's four important things to note here.
First, Lux's kit heavily favors Ludens over Liandry, and yet Liandry is still doing more damage.
Second, I didn't include the Liandry burn damage at all, and Liandry is still doing quite well. Including the burn Liandry would place higher than Ludens in DPS since the difference was only 1 DPS.
Third, Liandry is doing this while also having arguably the best defensive stats of any of these items (300 HP)
Fourth, it took me less than 10 minutes to make this post I LOVE THIS SPREADSHEET.
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So the new Darius is quite a bit of fun. I really like him. Not quite used to the reduction in laning power, but I'll get used to it.
As far as items go, it seems like you guys were thinking Black Cleaver and Titanic Hydra, which makes sense to me. But what about defensive items? Obviously it's going to be different from game to game, but I was thinking as sort of a "bread and butter", Warmogs, Spirit Visage (Except I know that ALL of you are going to say Banshee's Veil on this one!) and Dead Man's Plate.
Thoughts?
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Dunno about Warmog's, it's not like you can easily leave a fight to replenish your health then go back in with Darius.
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On August 22 2015 12:38 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 10:07 Slayer91 wrote:
i dont believe them
they are probably assuming that you dont just fire all spells in 1 rotation
ok boys you can keep liandries debuff up at all times and focus the team member with the highest hp
just like in diablo3 boys so easy Okay, so here's some analysis from my fancy new Lux spreadsheet: If we take a typical level 18 Lux with Morello+Deathcap+Void+Ludens+Liandry (all the big damage items), and look at her attacking a typical ADC. Her burst combo does 2741 damage. Her sustained DPS is 384. What I'm gonna do is do these same calculations five times, but each time remove one of those five items so we can see in what order each of the five items is increasing her damage: + Show Spoiler +
Without Deathcap
Burst: 2028
Sustained: 276
Without Void
Burst: 1994
Sustained: 275
Without Liandry
Burst: 2198
Sustained: 305
Without Morello
Burst: 2480
Sustained: 269
Without Ludens
Burst: 2219
Sustained: 304
So, here's the conclusions of which item is having the biggest effect on her damage. For Burst:#1 - Void #2 - Deathcap #3 - Liandry #4 - Ludens #5 - Morello For Sustained:#1 - Morello #2 - Void #3 - Deathcap #4 - Ludens #5 - Liandry Note that these figures are vs. squishy target stats. If you change it to being vs. a tank, the amount that Void > Deathcap increases, while the amount that Liandry > Ludens decreases. But even vs. typical tank stats the placements are the same. There's four important things to note here. First, Lux's kit heavily favors Ludens over Liandry, and yet Liandry is still doing more damage. Second, I didn't include the Liandry burn damage at all, and Liandry is still doing quite well. Including the burn Liandry would place higher than Ludens in DPS since the difference was only 1 DPS. Third, Liandry is doing this while also having arguably the best defensive stats of any of these items (300 HP) Fourth, it took me less than 10 minutes to make this post I LOVE THIS SPREADSHEET.
10% ms is better than 300 hp most of the time for a champion like lux as a defensive stat.
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It probably is. Depends on the enemy team lineup I think.
The point of the post is more for Liandry as an item though, using Lux as an example because I have the fancy spreadsheet to make it easy, but also because Lux's kit just plain doesn't like Liandry.
If it's that strong on her, it's going to be a competitive buy on basically any AP Mage in the right situation.
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ludens is better for poke damage when you hit one spell too especially with the bounce
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On August 22 2015 15:38 Frudgey wrote:
So the new Darius is quite a bit of fun. I really like him. Not quite used to the reduction in laning power, but I'll get used to it.
As far as items go, it seems like you guys were thinking Black Cleaver and Titanic Hydra, which makes sense to me. But what about defensive items? Obviously it's going to be different from game to game, but I was thinking as sort of a "bread and butter", Warmogs, Spirit Visage (Except I know that ALL of you are going to say Banshee's Veil on this one!) and Dead Man's Plate.
Thoughts?
Warmogs, if you build it at all, should be later in the build. You run the issue of just having a large stack of health with BC, TH, and Warmogs that gets you blown up by % damage.
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I just tried Sterak's Gage on Renekton, since I was fed and I already had titanic + cleaver. It's crap. All my abilities scale on bonus ad not base ad, the 900~ shield doesn't help with getting kited, I rather have something like Randuins or Dead Man's Plate to stick and be tanky.
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Yeah, Sterak's outside of Tforce/possibly IBG users and the small amount of guys who scale entirely off base AD is a pretty sad item. But for those guys, fun times.
For Darius, Tforce/Sterak's/Titanic is very funny. It's not good, because I don't really like Tforce on him, but it's hilarious the one time you Q/Tforce AA with W/Titanic AA.
Defensively, I think DMP is mandatory. Visage with his Q heal and the CDR is 100% better than BV, imo. CDR is too good on him. You want to get them in range and never let them leave until you either ult or hit 5 stacks and kill them. Randuin's is a nice second armor item. Sterak's is middling on him; Passive and Ult scale off bonus AD. Maw is always an option. Warmog's is probably good 4th item vs poke, but if the regen wasn't that big of a deal before, I doubt it will be now unless it's a poke comp from hell. Cleaver/Titanic/SV or DMP/whichever you didn't buy and a situational 5th item is probably ideal.
Edit: champion.gg stats, take with a grain of salt
Morde is the highest winrate ADC in the game. It's now his only winning role. He's also listed as Top/Mid/Support/ADC, lol. Protip: Don't support.
People learned how to play Fiora and the buffs helped. She's at 55%.
Skarner is pure bullshit, but everybody knows that.
Darius is significantly undertuned. I'm agreeing after playing with his wimpy Q. Hopefully buffs help.
Garen winrate skyrocketed. How??? The answer is probably items and playrate.
Decent buffs for Liss. Nobody's picking up Liandry though v.v High base and Q spam is somehow not convincing enough.
GP is now a full 5% over pre-rework. Knew it'd be good. Did not think barrels would prove themselves so OP though.
TK is finally getting to 50% and has shown up Jungle
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Steraks is absolutely nuts good on Wukong.
So much extra ult damage.
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On August 22 2015 20:57 Slayer91 wrote:
ludens is better for poke damage when you hit one spell too especially with the bounce
Sure but the question was "is Liandrys the second best damage item now?"
Against low to moderate MR Liandrys is trivially first or second for damage (since void used to be second for pretty much all situations since it shreds more MR than void till about 45 MR And has the same AP plus the burn) once you've got them then it's trivially third since Void was second and if you have void Liandrys is as powerful as another hypothetical void until a decent amount of MR)
Even against high MR targets Liandrys penetration is quite powerful and will only be outperformed by Ludens if targets have zero MR to penetrate or if you are poking and hitting low HP targets.
Frankly Sorc/guise should be core on almost all mages right now then you get void/cap/ludens/zhonya to finish your damage build for whatever you particularly need to do(wave clear, move speed etc)
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You often can't afford to go 3 only offensive items first though.
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Yeah. The exception to that generic AP build is if you use Liandry's poorly, which is actually fewer mages than you'd think, or if you want Abyssal.
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On August 23 2015 05:37 Numy wrote:
You often can't afford to go 3 only offensive items first though.
You often can, depending on the match up and state of the game.
That said, the health from guise/liandrys is deceptively good as a form of early defence. Sometimes you can 'get away with it'.
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On August 23 2015 05:48 Caiada wrote:
Yeah. The exception to that generic AP build is if you use Liandry's poorly, which is actually fewer mages than you'd think, or if you want Abyssal.
The range on abyssal isn't long enough for most mids to reliably use. Additionally because abyssal stacks before % pen (as its shred) it does not have a positive interaction with Void and so will do less damage than Liandrys if you have void as well
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Does cleansing Ahri charm get rid of the damage amp? Wait they removed the amp when they gave her Q movespeed didn't they.
I suppose this is a Fizz question too.
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I think cleanse only removes stuff like that if they are part of a movement debuff (like Wither).
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On August 23 2015 22:27 Ketara wrote:
Does cleansing Ahri charm get rid of the damage amp? Wait they removed the amp when they gave her Q movespeed didn't they.
I suppose this is a Fizz question too.
qss will clear all debuffs cleanse wont
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Wait they removed the amp when they gave her Q movespeed didn't they.
Yes, in 5.2.
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On August 24 2015 03:02 JimmiC wrote:
Champion.gg tells me that reworks at least changed shit up a bunch. Gio now winningest top. Skarnerer winningest jungle (65% oh my). Morde top adc. Then worst top mid and support, all morde!! Hue hue
Edit. Also 70% win rate ranking e>w>q. Please discuss.
Gio?
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You don't get much per point in Q for Skarner now that there's only the total AD ratio (and the AP one). +1 mana, -0.25s on the cooldown, and overall you go from 0.66 AD to 0.9 AD, which is a lot lower than most spells with base often tripling.
Maxed E gives you more potential stuns (AoE), and a lot more damage if you trigger the mark, up to 305 at level 5, which is a super high base.
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So I tried Triforce second item on Morde last night and it felt really bad in comparison to Rylai's. He has high base damage, but his triforce procs were really unimpressive. The movespeed he gains is trivial in comparison to the slow from Rylai's. I'd much rather have a 20%-40% slow than 8% flat move speed and the rage passive. The attack speed made it easier to cs, I guess. It definitely wasn't worth it though considering Morde has good waveclear anyway. Having 100 AP from Rylais will do more damage than 30 AP and 30 AD, and Rylai's has 400hp rather than 250hp. Oh, and it's 700 gold cheaper.
I guess there's no denying he'll take towers faster with a Triforce. For everything else Rylai's is better.
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Alright, first, don't buy it second item; that's idiotic. You rush Tforce on basically every user except jungle guys because they need Warrior/Cinderhulk.
He's got the highest base AD in the game. A Tforce proc is 220 damage at lvl12, and you proc it constantly with two low CD spells.
So about ~95 AP and 150 health need to make up for that and 30 AD, accounting for Rylai's being cheaper.
~95 AP is 247 damage if you get all three hits of Q off on one guy. It's 14 damage for every second you're in range of a guy, doubled if you and the target are both in range. Not particularly significant. It's 57 damage on E. It's about 2% max health on ult; the ratio on ult is pretty bad tbh. 2% max health is like 30 damage on a generic 1.5k health target, which I think is a bit high for first item spikes, actually, but whatever. Best case scenario.
Two Tforce procs and 30 AD on full Q/E combo at level 12 is an additional 440+135 damage. 575 damage. Full Rylai's Q/E/R is an additional 247+30+57 damage. 334 damage, plus an additional 14 for every second you're in range with W on. You'd need the fight to last 17 seconds *if you only get two Tforce procs*. 8 and a half if both you and your support are in range and somehow still only get two Tforce procs. Well, actually twice as long because it only lasts 4 seconds and the CD is at best around 9 at this point.
I'm ignoring the Aspd and Crit here, as well. 1 in 10 hits will you get you an additional 140 damage over Rylai's. It's not significant enough to rely on for item choices though. And it should also be noted that as you level the gap only increases. Every level is an additional 10 damage.
TL;DR Tforce off ridiculous base AD is actually pretty fucking good if you do math.
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I feel like after the gd split the quality of posting in this thread went way up and the quality of posting in the other thread went way down.
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Morde's Q isn't "low cooldown" because you need to auto twice (assuming you hit the first one as soon as you press Q) and he has 0.601 base AS with bad AS/level. You can easily add 2 to 3 more seconds on the cooldown, it's still around 7, but that's basically double the base cd of the ability. And that's if you can chain them all.
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On August 25 2015 00:23 Alaric wrote:
Morde's Q isn't "low cooldown" because you need to auto twice (assuming you hit the first one as soon as you press Q) and he has 0.601 base AS with bad AS/level. You can easily had 2 to 3 more seconds on the cooldown, it's still around 7, but that's basically double the base cd of the ability. And that's if you can chain them all.
That's true, yeah. I was thinking more of E.
Even if you're just getting two off Q and E, it's much better. And a ton of his AP ratio is also wrapped up in getting all three Q hits off, which is not often realistic.
On August 25 2015 00:23 Ketara wrote:
I feel like after the gd split the quality of posting in this thread went way up and the quality of posting in the other thread went way down.
Definitely.
Gunblade, mentioned in the other thread, is a more interesting option than Rylai's. It's a lot of sustain, an equivalent slow, and more damage. Tforce for tankier builds later in the game and Gunblade as the burst/high damage option seems legit.
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i noticed players in the Chinese and Korean playoffs building Rod of Ages on Lulu a lot and it felt really good the times i've tried it so far. it might not be unlimited mana like Athene's, but with the Catalyst passive most of the time it seems like enough (800 mana fully stacked now). eventually getting 40 extra AP for the same price is a pretty big deal and without doing the math i'm pretty sure the HP crushes 25 MR for survivability even against magic damage.
you're pretty much locked in to CDR boots and scaling CDR glyphs (although i did see one top laner follow it up with Morello's), but there's nothing wrong with that at all on her. my KDA's the past two games have been so ridiculous i'm starting to wonder if i should buy a Mejai's 2nd item before Luden's.
what's the argument against Mejai's on Lulu anyway? it seems like she shares a lot of the safety/self-peel + AP scaling traits that Janna has and with Whimsy it's probably even easier to run around the map racking up assists.
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On August 25 2015 01:00 chalice wrote:
i noticed players in the Chinese and Korean playoffs building Rod of Ages on Lulu a lot and it felt really good the times i've tried it so far. it might not be unlimited mana like Athene's, but with the Catalyst passive most of the time it seems like enough (800 mana fully stacked now). eventually getting 40 extra AP for the same price is a pretty big deal and without doing the math i'm pretty sure the HP crushes 25 MR for survivability even against magic damage.
you're pretty much locked in to CDR boots and scaling CDR glyphs (although i did see one top laner follow it up with Morello's), but there's nothing wrong with that at all on her. my KDA's the past two games have been so ridiculous i'm starting to wonder if i should buy a Mejai's 2nd item before Luden's.
what's the argument against Mejai's on Lulu anyway? it seems like she shares a lot of the safety/self-peel + AP scaling traits that Janna has and with Whimsy it's probably even easier to run around the map racking up assists.
I don't really think Mejai's has a place in the game anymore. Before the exuse was "I had more than a Blasting Wand's gold but less than a NLR." but now that NLR is 1250g I'd rather just buy that and turn it into a real item with a good passive that I don't have to worry about dying and losing stacks from.
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On August 25 2015 00:19 Caiada wrote:
Alright, first, don't buy it second item; that's idiotic. You rush Tforce on basically every user except jungle guys because they need Warrior/Cinderhulk.
He's got the highest base AD in the game. A Tforce proc is 220 damage at lvl12, and you proc it constantly with two low CD spells.
So about ~95 AP and 150 health need to make up for that and 30 AD, accounting for Rylai's being cheaper.
~95 AP is 247 damage if you get all three hits of Q off on one guy. It's 14 damage for every second you're in range of a guy, doubled if you and the target are both in range. Not particularly significant. It's 57 damage on E. It's about 2% max health on ult; the ratio on ult is pretty bad tbh. 2% max health is like 30 damage on a generic 1.5k health target, which I think is a bit high for first item spikes, actually, but whatever. Best case scenario.
Two Tforce procs and 30 AD on full Q/E combo at level 12 is an additional 440+135 damage. 575 damage. Full Rylai's Q/E/R is an additional 247+30+57 damage. 334 damage, plus an additional 14 for every second you're in range with W on. You'd need the fight to last 17 seconds *if you only get two Tforce procs*. 8 and a half if both you and your support are in range and somehow still only get two Tforce procs. Well, actually twice as long because it only lasts 4 seconds and the CD is at best around 9 at this point.
I'm ignoring the Aspd and Crit here, as well. 1 in 10 hits will you get you an additional 140 damage over Rylai's. It's not significant enough to rely on for item choices though. And it should also be noted that as you level the gap only increases. Every level is an additional 10 damage.
TL;DR Tforce off ridiculous base AD is actually pretty fucking good if you do math.
Ok, I'll bite on this one because I'm sick of seeing these posts. Yeah, triforce does more damage on every champion with two procs than Rylais does. That includes Brand. Brand has a max AP ratio of 3.45. That's only 345 damage from Rylai's. 103 damage from triforce, but if you get two procs of triforce in you deal 348, and 452 damage total.
First off, your math is wrong. I'm not sure what math you're doing. So lets fix that before I explain why your logic is faulty.
+ Show Spoiler [Boring Math] +Morde has a total AP ratio on Q and E of 3.2 and AD ratio of 4.50(this is with a max level Q, his AD ratio on Q scales better than his AP ratio, so AD gets better with higher ranks.)
Ok, so lets assume Morde is having a 1v1 duel to the death. that's 320 extra damage with Rylai's and 231 with Triforce on his Q and E ability damage alone. Two procs of Triforce deal an additional 440. So we're at 671 on Triforce vs 320 with Rylai's. That's more than double!
His ult will deal an additional 4% max hp damage with a Rylai's vs 1.2% with Triforce. The 2.8% difference is a bit of a moot point, at level 12, it's about 30-40 extra damage.
W is a bit harder to calculate because it deals double damage with two people standing next to each other. I'm also not entirely sure how it works. Do the two circles explode independently and double the damage or just the AOE? Do the AOE explosions hit three targets independently when it explodes or 3 targets total? Lets assume the explosion damage doesn't stack and is only going to hit one target. If Morde and an ally double the damage onto a single target for the full duration and explode the circles that's an additional 2.7 AP ratio. Lets also ignore the fact that the circles can heal both Morde and an ally for .9AP ratio a piece.
That's an additional 270 damage on Rylai's and 81 damage on Triforce. Because it's highly unlikely Morde will ever get a full combo and 2 triforce procs off on a single target without help from ally CC(unless he has Rylai's), the total max damage would be.
Rylai's full combo additional damage if R deals an additional 60 damage = 650
Triforce comparison damage with 2 triforce procs = 782
Triforce wins by 132 damage. Lets say the AOE on W isn't doubled, and only Morde is hitting the enemy for the full duration. Triforce will deal an addition 207 damage in that case. So you definitely have to get that second triforce hit in.
TLDR of this section: Triforce beats out Rylai's in a 1v1 and 2v1 duel where the enemy allows you to auto them with Triforce procs twice.
I just wanted to at least get the proper math done here. Even though it's a rather moot point because the scenario described will almost certainly never happen. This is all ignoring that Morde has 325 base move speed. Even with the Triforce he's not speed racer by any means. This ignores when he uses his E it self roots him so anyone with a brain just isn't going to let him use E point blank without putting distance between them. This ignores that everyone in the game has more innate mobility or some form of CC better than Morde. It takes for granted that Morde will never deal any damage to anyone without being in melee range or going all in. It takes for granted that his W and E are AOE spells and aren't going to deal damage to multiple targets at a single time. It takes for granted that Morde will get two procs of Triforce off. Hell, I'd give Brand a better chance, at least he has a two second stun and is a ranged champ. And like I mentioned before, it ignores the fact he has a heal that can heal up to a .9ap ratio to both him and his ally.
So, those are all important factors to consider, but I think the most important factor is the slow. If we're talking about a straight 1v1 duel. Your chances of getting 2-3 auto attacks off on an enemy go up dramatically when you can apply a 40% slow with E and a reapplying 20% slow with R or W. Morde's problem isn't that he's lacking in damage, The dude can deal 1000-2000 damage with the third hit of his Q alone. His problem is he can't stick to enemies to deal that damage. Rylai's is easily the best tool in the game to do that with.
I'm so sick of Caiada posts. Not only is the logic seriously flawed and he's factoring how good items are on Magma Chamber where everyone is apparently just fighting to the death melee. But he didn't even get the math right. That's really the kicker for me.
Isn't this the definition of bad theory crafting? Basing your reasoning on completely improbable circumstances and using wrong numbers? To me, it seems like this is the quintessential Caiada post, contradictory, low on logic, low on content in a seemingly apparent attempt to inflame the person he's responding to. Maybe I'm wrong, I just see little value in Caiada posts.
Edit: Oops forgot to factor in explosion ratio.
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According to the wiki Rylai's slow applies on Morde Q as well.
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If you can expand on the value besides 'the slow is better', I'd love to see why. Go Gunblade if you're that desperate for a slow.
The math was wrong on ult/W, yeah. It's still better if you get even two AAs off. When the fuck are you not getting two AAs off with at least one free AA reset, 2 if you build correctly? When the hell are you hitting 3 people with a 250 radius PBAoE? How often does that heal actually matter for either of you when you hit someone with it? How does an additional .3 AP ratio make 95 AP of gold value better than even one Tforce proc? Especially on a champ that's been reliant on burst since his release because of how ult works.
If you're picking Morde with a support that cannot setup at least two AAs, one of you has picked wrong. There is nothing more to it.
But fuck, if you want Rylai's, go ahead and get it. The champion.gg most winning build has fucking both, so there ya go.
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Myeah, Morde these days assumes a duo lane, usually with hard engage, and as mordes Q is pretty much all of his damage, if you can't get it off at least three times in a fight you might as well reconsider playing him altogether. Watching qtpie he had no problems with steraks into tf and exhaust over ignite/heal in lane.
It's not like you play Morde to rush the backline either, you just Q whatever's closest (maybe R the adc if you've got an assassin) and at that point in the game getting even two full rotations of q simply does not require a Rylais.
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Played my first match as Skarner ever and uhhhh...
If they were going for "making it feel powerful", I feel like they succeeded but I'm not sure if killing their ADC in half a second 1v1 despite QSSing ult is intended.
User was warned for this post
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On August 25 2015 04:09 Seuss wrote:
According to the wiki Rylai's slow applies on Morde Q as well.
Eeeeh? That surprises me. I built rylai's on Morde a couple of times and I never noticed... but after testing, you're right.
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On August 25 2015 05:34 Shikyo wrote:
Played my first match as Skarner ever and uhhhh...
there is this DRM in the last serious sam game where if the game detected a pirated copy, after a while the game would spawn a giant invincible superfast scorpion that chased you everywhere through the level until you died
whenever i see skarner in 5.16 i get flashbacks to serious sam
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On August 25 2015 05:16 Osmoses wrote:
Myeah, Morde these days assumes a duo lane, usually with hard engage, and as mordes Q is pretty much all of his damage, if you can't get it off at least three times in a fight you might as well reconsider playing him altogether. Watching qtpie he had no problems with steraks into tf and exhaust over ignite/heal in lane.
It's not like you play Morde to rush the backline either, you just Q whatever's closest (maybe R the adc if you've got an assassin) and at that point in the game getting even two full rotations of q simply does not require a Rylais.
He's very strong midgame where AD's don't have enough damage to kill him and he still does a pretty decent amount of damage to tanks because they can't shrug off his damage yet.
Then lategame he turns into some sort of weird crappy assassin where you gotta pray that somehow you blow up a carry and get their ghost.
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On August 25 2015 05:37 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 04:09 Seuss wrote:
According to the wiki Rylai's slow applies on Morde Q as well. Eeeeh? That surprises me. I built rylai's on Morde a couple of times and I never noticed... but after testing, you're right.
Yeah it basically counts as a single target spell (SEE: Ekko).
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On August 25 2015 05:37 suicideyear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 05:34 Shikyo wrote:
Played my first match as Skarner ever and uhhhh... there is this DRM in the last serious sam game where if the game detected a pirated copy, after a while the game would spawn a giant invincible superfast scorpion that chased you everywhere through the level until you died whenever i see skarner in 5.16 i get flashbacks to serious sam
great post LOL
also even shikyo thinks skerner is op
alert riot that should be enough to convince them they need an instant hotfix.
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I think many things are op, but if I think something played by me is op there's a serious issue.
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There's a different thread where you can talk about how OP Skarner is, along with how Victor is not a good competitive pick.
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On August 25 2015 04:41 Caiada wrote:
If you can expand on the value besides 'the slow is better', I'd love to see why. Go Gunblade if you're that desperate for a slow.
Already did. See the paragraph where I point out the things you ignore and take for granted... oh you address that later. I guess this statement is just erroneous.
The math was wrong on ult/W, yeah.
No, the ult math is dependent on the target since it's max % HP. So you technically can't be wrong, you just threw in a random number there. You were wrong on the Q damage for both Triforce and Rylai's. I think you believe Rylai's is 95AP and you didn't factor in the AP from Triforce onto Morde's Q. I couldn't follow what you were saying with W, so I'll take your word for it that you were wrong.
It's still better if you get even two AAs off.
It's not two AAs. It's two triforce procs. Big difference there. Big, big difference there.
When the fuck are you not getting two AAs off with at least one free AA reset, 2 if you build correctly?
Free AA reset? Opposed to the expensive ones? Pretty erroneous information overall since triforce has a 1.5 second CD and CD starts after you auto. I italicized the part I just don't understand.
When the hell are you hitting 3 people with a 250 radius PBAoE?
You have two 500 diameter circles. You hit three people when the enemy groups up.
How often does that heal actually matter for either of you when you hit someone with it?
The heal also procs off of minions. How often will a .3ap - .9ap ratio heal with a 12- 8 second CD? I don't know, as often as it matters for Sona and Nami I suppose.
How does an additional .3 AP ratio make 95 AP of gold value better than even one Tforce proc? Especially on a champ that's been reliant on burst since his release because of how ult works.
I don't know where 95AP of gold comes from. I don't really understand the question. I think the gist of it is, Triforce = more damages = more gooder. While I'm saying it doesn't matter how much damage in theory you can do if you can't stick to a target.
If you're picking Morde with a support that cannot setup at least two AAs, one of you has picked wrong. There is nothing more to it.
Weird logic. Does this mean if your team doesn't pick around you and set things up for you, you're basically fucked? Just build a Triforce and don't build a Rylais, at least you'll know you're playing properly even if your team isn't? Does this mean I have to go into every game trusting my teammates to play properly? Did I just enter the Fantasy Zone?
+ Show Spoiler +
But fuck, if you want Rylai's, go ahead and get it. The champion.gg most winning build has fucking both, so there ya go.
Well I'll be. That's the most reasonable thing you've said in this entire discussion. Unfortunately that's not theory crafting, that's just presenting a stat.
Alright, first, don't buy it second item; that's idiotic.
Damn you idiots, Svenskeren and Alex Ich! I'll never trust your builds again!
http://www.probuilds.net/guide/EUW/2260038861/19543261
http://www.probuilds.net/guide/NA/1926410165/65009177
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70 AP over Tforce plus 700 gold of AP is about 95 AP. 100 if you're generous, I suppose?
lol
I don't give a shit what pros are building, especially two guys who don't play ADC.
And yes, if you're picking a niche immobile mage as a replacement for your ADC, you need people to help you. What a shock.
Q is an AA reset, Titanic can be as well, which I'm reasonably sure is the ideal build for scenarios where you should actually pick Morde. It's irrelevant regardless; if you're playing Morde and cannot get two Tforce-empowered autos, you're either picking the wrong target, have the wrong support, or are bad.
I threw out a reasonable assumption for target health that was a best-case scenario for Rylai's first item, but I don't think you actually read the post. From the looks of it, you saw my username and immediately typed furiously.
If you can tell me why building for utility over damage is a good thing besides if you're for whatever reason playing solo ADC and have a team with no CC, again, I'd love to hear it.
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On August 25 2015 07:20 Caiada wrote:
70 AP over Tforce plus 700 gold of AP is about 95 AP. 100 if you're generous, I suppose?
Oh, it took me a minute, but I see what you're talking about. Your math wasn't wrong, you just didn't elaborate properly and your syntax is off. For some reason you assumed the reader knew you were subtracting the AP from Triforce and Rylai's then adding 25AP due to the 703 gold difference and then comparing the item's damage from there. Although, gold saved != AP. That's a bit of a silly assumption. The 700 gold you save just means you power spike faster.
I don't give a shit what pros are building, especially two guys who don't play ADC.
Yeah, high level opinion doesn't matter. In your words, 'they're idiotic.' In that case lets throw away champion.gg stats as well so you can personally theorycraft some more.
And yes, if you're picking a niche immobile mage as a replacement for your ADC, you need people to help you. What a shock.
I can now see why you say you're bad at the game if you believe others are required to set you up for victory. I guess we have stepped into the Fantasy Zone where teammates will just always do what you want them to.
Q is an AA reset, Titanic can be as well, which I'm reasonably sure is the ideal build for scenarios where you should actually pick Morde. It's irrelevant regardless;
I don't think you understand that the cool down on Triforce starts on the empowered auto attack or maybe you didn't know there's a 1.5 second cool down on Triforce. Or maybe you're assuming I didn't know that and you're just trying to make a disingenuous counterpoint? In any event, this AA reset thing is erroneous to keep harping on.
if you're playing Morde and cannot get two Tforce-empowered autos, 1. you're either picking the wrong target, 2. have the wrong support, or 3. are bad.
This is pretty funny. Let me rephrase, 1.'assumes enemies will always be in AA range of melee champs that have no strong mobility spells or CC', 2.'your support isn't helping you enough', 3.'you're bad if you think it's hard to auto attack the enemy on a melee champion with, again, no CC or strong mobility spells.' I'll keep that in mind.
I threw out a reasonable assumption for target health that was a best-case scenario for Rylai's first item, but I don't think you actually read the post. From the looks of it, you saw my username and immediately typed furiously.
I think this is in regards to the ult damage? I can't be sure since you didn't specify. I never questioned the number you came up with for ult damage. I even said that in my last post that I wasn't criticizing the number you gave. For the record, I usually ignore your posts because, again, I think your posts are of little value, logically erroneous, and contradictory in a way to inflame the person you're responding to. I'm just tired of seeing them and I've decided to tear this one apart.
If you can tell me why building for utility over damage is a good thing besides if you're for whatever reason playing solo ADC and have a team with no CC, again, I'd love to hear it.
I've already explained thoroughly in these two posts,
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-strategy/492928-patch-516-im-the-juggernaut-patch-discussion?page=10#185
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-strategy/492928-patch-516-im-the-juggernaut-patch-discussion?page=10#192
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See Essence Reaver actually being built in a game it should totally be built out of flask.
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On August 25 2015 06:39 Zess wrote:
There's a different thread where you can talk about how OP Skarner is, along with how Victor is not a good competitive pick.
Wait what?
I thought this was the thread for that now? I'm confused.
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I think he's talking about the champion threads?
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Nah, I meant that you should use the general GD thread for "non-productive" game discussion, such as generally saying that Skarner is OP/should be hotfixed/balance QQ, that Victor isn't a good pick (i.e. Alaric and Goumindong's favorite topic), and other such tangents.
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I love the non productive comment lol.
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On August 25 2015 12:33 Ketara wrote:
I love the non productive comment lol.
I mean, to be fair, it is an unproductive conversation. Both sides believe one thing and refuse to entertain the other position.
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On August 25 2015 12:04 Zess wrote:
Nah, I meant that you should use the general GD thread for "non-productive" game discussion, such as generally saying that Skarner is OP/should be hotfixed/balance QQ, that Victor isn't a good pick (i.e. Alaric and Goumindong's favorite topic), and other such tangents.
I mean if you didn't make a contest of one-upping each other with self-pats and pseudo-smug distortions of what was said and spend more time trying to make fun our so-called opinions than actually discussing the topic, yeah maybe it wouldn't appear so much.
But you go ahead and whine about how unproductive the threads are. It actually took something like 2-3 weeks before I started getting actual answers when I said I didn't see what explained the picks rather than "hurr durr moron he the best mid now he high AP ratio", but you go and blame the guy looking for analysis and not the kind of competitive dick-sucking that mirrors the blind copying of pro picks on soloQ.
It's getting stale from the few people that were doing it consistently, and now every week there's someone else jumping on the train like a battered meme. Drop it or provide something constructive?
On August 25 2015 17:15 M2 wrote:
Why is Garen nerfed on PBE? especially his Q? Isnt his rework nerf enough?
There's a red post saying he's basically too hard to kite or something for all the damage he brings.
Which is kind of amusing since I saw a bunch of other posts from people confronted with Garen more than once in a blue moon for the first time and saying that the rework made him broken, "faster than Hecarim" and stuff like that (while mentioning a 6-slotted Garen with Alacrity enchantment on swifties, bleh)... when Garen's mobility hasn't been changed at all. They actually nerfed it by reducing the duration on Q's MS buff, iirc.
If his mobility is too hard to stop, it's more likely coming from Dead Man's Plate and not Garen himself, since it's what's really new this patch. I don't necessarily see it as bad to nerf the champion over the item this time in this case, unless DMP proves broken and nerfed without Garen being compensated for the nerfs later down the line.
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Why is Garen nerfed on PBE? especially his Q? Isnt his rework nerf enough?
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thing is garen was almost certainly op before and nobody realized it, they are giving us a nerfed garen (though probably slightly stronger later) and everyones like wow so strong
thats my theory, I could be wrong, DMP is pretty good on garen.
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Basically the same as the previous Skarner rework. People didn't play him, he got nerfed but people played him again, got nerfed again into next rework. It's kinda stupid.
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On August 25 2015 20:51 Slayer91 wrote:
thing is garen was almost certainly op before and nobody realized it, they are giving us a nerfed garen (though probably slightly stronger later) and everyones like wow so strong
thats my theory, I could be wrong, DMP is pretty good on garen.
The new items certainly add a lot to his power. It's much easier to build the kind of mixed defense/damage that garen wants. But he was still pretty strong in the current meta.
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On August 25 2015 22:25 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 20:51 Slayer91 wrote:
thing is garen was almost certainly op before and nobody realized it, they are giving us a nerfed garen (though probably slightly stronger later) and everyones like wow so strong
thats my theory, I could be wrong, DMP is pretty good on garen. The new items certainly add a lot to his power. It's much easier to build the kind of mixed defense/damage that garen wants. But he was still pretty strong in the current meta.
Nah, not really. He used to be able to do a really good defense/damage build as well.
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On August 25 2015 22:38 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 22:25 Goumindong wrote:On August 25 2015 20:51 Slayer91 wrote:
thing is garen was almost certainly op before and nobody realized it, they are giving us a nerfed garen (though probably slightly stronger later) and everyones like wow so strong
thats my theory, I could be wrong, DMP is pretty good on garen. The new items certainly add a lot to his power. It's much easier to build the kind of mixed defense/damage that garen wants. But he was still pretty strong in the current meta. Nah, not really. He used to be able to do a really good defense/damage build as well.
Well no. He could build offensive and defensive items but those are less efficient than hybrid items. And there were only two, maybe three, decent hybrid items for him. One of which was newish (Cleaver, Maw, BT). This means that, by necessity he will or can have more raw stats after a set amount of gold.
Now there are 4+ good hybrid items. And more than one hybrid item if the enemy doesn't have a strong Magic damage presence.
DMP Is really good on him but so is titanic (and Steraks)
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On August 25 2015 22:45 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 22:38 Fildun wrote:On August 25 2015 22:25 Goumindong wrote:On August 25 2015 20:51 Slayer91 wrote:
thing is garen was almost certainly op before and nobody realized it, they are giving us a nerfed garen (though probably slightly stronger later) and everyones like wow so strong
thats my theory, I could be wrong, DMP is pretty good on garen. The new items certainly add a lot to his power. It's much easier to build the kind of mixed defense/damage that garen wants. But he was still pretty strong in the current meta. Nah, not really. He used to be able to do a really good defense/damage build as well. Well no. He could build offensive and defensive items but those are less efficient than hybrid items. And there were only two, maybe three, decent hybrid items for him. One of which was newish (Cleaver, Maw, BT). This means that, by necessity he will or can have more raw stats after a set amount of gold. Now there are 4+ good hybrid items. And more than one hybrid item if the enemy doesn't have a strong Magic damage presence. DMP Is really good on him but so is titanic (and Steraks)
What build do you go then? Old build used to be Sunfire/Randuins/Maw/Boots/Thornmail/LW, which gives a lot of damage and tankyness. In the new build you replace Randuins with DMP, which is basically the same except you get random mobies. Besides that I don't see how any of the new items are better than the old ones so please explain all these claims you make.
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There's probably something better than sunfire on garen. Not like he needs waveclear.
Also why LW over BC?
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On August 25 2015 22:57 Ketara wrote:
There's probably something better than sunfire on garen. Not like he needs waveclear.
Also why LW over BC?
It's cheaper and gives more damage.
Sunfire really helps for trading in lane though plus the stats are really good vs AD lanes. I guess you could replace it with Titanic in your full build but as first item vs AD I'd still build it.
Edit:
On August 25 2015 23:01 Prog wrote:
I'd go DMP over Sunfire (keep Randuins) and BC over LW. With the way the new spin ticks more frequently lategame BC is better.
With DMP over Sunfire I find that you lack damage in the early-midgame.
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I'd go DMP over Sunfire (keep Randuins) and BC over LW. With the way the new spin ticks more frequently lategame BC is better.
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The new randuins anti crit passive is kinda huge.
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Sunfire was cheap and added some dps, which is always good (long cooldowns and he doesn't exactly have good damage or mobility when they're down).
Is it still worth it to build thornmail? For raw armour I assume it's best in slot since Randuin's is down to 60 and FH to 70 iirc, but it's not like the return damage is great now.
Another random question, can't test now: can he still go through minions during E? Tooltip isn't clear if they removed the MS penalty while he does it, or if they removed it altogether.
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Pretty sure if you're against somebody building crit that randuins was buffed, not nerfed.
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On August 25 2015 23:05 Ketara wrote:
The new randuins anti crit passive is kinda huge.
It's really not though. It reduces crits by 10%, so when an ADC has about 50% crit it reduces the damage done by the ADC by about 5%.
Randuins gives 400 HP and 60 armor, DMP gives 600 HP and 50 armor. The stats (in terms of EHP) favour DMP slightly, also because it's better against magic damage.
In terms of passive/actives you have a 35% slow for 4 seconds on a long cooldown plus a 5% damage reduction vs ADC's versus a free mobies, some damage plus a 75% slow for 1 second on first hit.
DMP is just straight better imo.
Edit:
On August 25 2015 23:21 nafta wrote:
Randuins is better on engage tanks and dmp is better on bruisers.
Well yes, but I was talking about Garen here. Obviously on stuff like Gragas/Sejuani Randuins is better.
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Randuins is better on engage tanks and dmp is better on bruisers.
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On August 25 2015 23:17 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 23:05 Ketara wrote:
The new randuins anti crit passive is kinda huge. It's really not though. It reduces crits by 10%, so when an ADC has about 50% crit it reduces the damage done by the ADC by about 5%. Randuins gives 400 HP and 60 armor, DMP gives 600 HP and 50 armor. The stats (in terms of EHP) favour DMP slightly, also because it's better against magic damage. In terms of passive/actives you have a 35% slow for 4 seconds on a long cooldown plus a 5% damage reduction vs ADC's versus a free mobies, some damage plus a 75% slow for 1 second on first hit. DMP is just straight better imo. Edit: Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 23:21 nafta wrote:
Randuins is better on engage tanks and dmp is better on bruisers. Well yes, but I was talking about Garen here. Obviously on stuff like Gragas/Sejuani Randuins is better.
Also it kind of screams anti-Zeke's-item. Zeke's is stupidly strong lol.
DMP (and Olaf coming back a bit) is kind of forcing people to draft extra hard CC.
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On August 25 2015 23:17 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 23:05 Ketara wrote:
The new randuins anti crit passive is kinda huge. It's really not though. It reduces crits by 10%, so when an ADC has about 50% crit it reduces the damage done by the ADC by about 5%. Randuins gives 400 HP and 60 armor, DMP gives 600 HP and 50 armor. The stats (in terms of EHP) favour DMP slightly, also because it's better against magic damage. In terms of passive/actives you have a 35% slow for 4 seconds on a long cooldown plus a 5% damage reduction vs ADC's versus a free mobies, some damage plus a 75% slow for 1 second on first hit. DMP is just straight better imo. Edit: Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 23:21 nafta wrote:
Randuins is better on engage tanks and dmp is better on bruisers. Well yes, but I was talking about Garen here. Obviously on stuff like Gragas/Sejuani Randuins is better.
I'm not trying to compare the two items. But do you realize how much armor you'd need to reduce the adcs damage by 5%?
Not to mention its more than that. If 50% of their attacks are crits and the crits are doing 200% damage, then 66% of their damage is crit damage and the crit reduction is reducing their overall damage by 6.6%.
Only its even more than that because of the IE passive and things like Zekes and whatever. It's often more like a 7-8% damage reduction which is worth a lot of armor.
I'm too sick to do better math than that, I'm sure somebody else can help me out.
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On August 25 2015 22:55 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 22:45 Goumindong wrote:On August 25 2015 22:38 Fildun wrote:On August 25 2015 22:25 Goumindong wrote:On August 25 2015 20:51 Slayer91 wrote:
thing is garen was almost certainly op before and nobody realized it, they are giving us a nerfed garen (though probably slightly stronger later) and everyones like wow so strong
thats my theory, I could be wrong, DMP is pretty good on garen. The new items certainly add a lot to his power. It's much easier to build the kind of mixed defense/damage that garen wants. But he was still pretty strong in the current meta. Nah, not really. He used to be able to do a really good defense/damage build as well. Well no. He could build offensive and defensive items but those are less efficient than hybrid items. And there were only two, maybe three, decent hybrid items for him. One of which was newish (Cleaver, Maw, BT). This means that, by necessity he will or can have more raw stats after a set amount of gold. Now there are 4+ good hybrid items. And more than one hybrid item if the enemy doesn't have a strong Magic damage presence. DMP Is really good on him but so is titanic (and Steraks) What build do you go then? Old build used to be Sunfire/Randuins/Maw/Boots/Thornmail/LW, which gives a lot of damage and tankyness. In the new build you replace Randuins with DMP, which is basically the same except you get random mobies. Besides that I don't see how any of the new items are better than the old ones so please explain all these claims you make.
Yea see this build has three full tank items, one hybrid, and one pure damage. The fact that you have sunfire in there when garen is neither a split pusher nor has any lack of wave clear is really telling for his weak itemization options before the last patch.
You can go cleaver, maw, DMP, titanic, randuins, boots and have more tank, more damage, and more utility. If you need more of a certain defense you can drop one of the offensive mix for another pure defensive item. So on so forth.
So you spin through the front line, stacking BC for your allies. Then DMP auto, q, titanic, (ult if necessary) a squishy and you've won the fight because you've done 1500 raw damage in the space of basically one auto attack not including your ult.
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On August 25 2015 23:37 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 23:17 Fildun wrote:On August 25 2015 23:05 Ketara wrote:
The new randuins anti crit passive is kinda huge. It's really not though. It reduces crits by 10%, so when an ADC has about 50% crit it reduces the damage done by the ADC by about 5%. Randuins gives 400 HP and 60 armor, DMP gives 600 HP and 50 armor. The stats (in terms of EHP) favour DMP slightly, also because it's better against magic damage. In terms of passive/actives you have a 35% slow for 4 seconds on a long cooldown plus a 5% damage reduction vs ADC's versus a free mobies, some damage plus a 75% slow for 1 second on first hit. DMP is just straight better imo. Edit: On August 25 2015 23:21 nafta wrote:
Randuins is better on engage tanks and dmp is better on bruisers. Well yes, but I was talking about Garen here. Obviously on stuff like Gragas/Sejuani Randuins is better. I'm not trying to compare the two items. But do you realize how much armor you'd need to reduce the adcs damage by 5% I'm too sick to do better math than that, I'm sure somebody else can help me out.
About 10 armor going from 90 to 100. Going from 190 armor to 210 is a 6.8% reduction. Doing the algebra it's clear its 5 + 5 armor/100 you already have to get 5% more DR than you already have.
Its slightly more than that if they have LW or an ally stacking BC but not ever quite double even with both and BC fully stacked. If they have flat pen figure as if your armor is already reduced which makes it easier.
Edit: unless I did something wrong it should be about 8+5 per 100 with LW and 10+5 per 100 with BC as well.
Edit2: so I am on a phone excuse my ugly algebra.
We solve 1.0v*(100+(1-R)*Armor)= 100+(1-R)*(Armor+Extra)
Where armor is what we already have, v is the % increase we want to figure for, r is the enemies % pen, and extra is the thing we are solving for.
So 100+v + 1.0v(1-R)* Armor = 100+(1-R)*(Armor+Extra)
v + 1.0v(1-R)* Armor = (1-R)*(Armor+Extra)
v/(1-R) + 1.0v* Armor = (Armor+Extra)
v/(1-R)+ .0v*Armor = Extra
So for 5% it's 5 divided by the armor reduction plus 5 per 100 base. For a 10% reduction same deal but now it's 10+10 per 100
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I don't really see a space for sunfire anymore outside of pure tanks in rare scenarios. The mobility of DMP and two decent second and third armor items in Randuin's and Thornmail respectively seem to replace it on most.
I think Randuin's passive is a bit undertuned though. Looks barely better on EHP than DMP and only versus high-crit targets with a lot of pen. Not remotely worth it unless you've already built DMP.
Titanic being a proper AA reset and scaling significantly off of health is a big deal too. Probably the item I underrated most, after playing with it. Darius with two quick AA resets is a lot of quick damage in a more usable AoE than I expected.
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Titanic does not feel great on Garen though, simply because you can't use it while spinning.
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On August 26 2015 00:06 Prog wrote:
Titanic does not feel great on Garen though, simply because you can't use it while spinning.
Use it right after you q for even more "f you" damage on your instant damage.
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Coming back after quite some time. How are some of my old faves doing? Namely: Yi, Kha, Riven, Teemo, Cait, Elise, Zac, Soraka?
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United States15536 Posts
On August 26 2015 00:22 Requizen wrote:
Coming back after quite some time. How are some of my old faves doing? Namely: Yi, Kha, Riven, Teemo, Cait, Elise, Zac, Soraka?
From my narrow, jungle-y perspective Elise I believe is still good (even after the recent nerf) and Zac is a favorite of mine and the buff makes him even better (which is to say, fun but still not top tier).
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Yi still desstroying at lower level. Hell almost every Yi I face in gold destroys. Riven still doing riven things. Elise got buffed so she's good again but then nerfed straight away. Zac got some buffs, idk if he's good. Kha has long been forgotten. Rest i don't know.
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Teemo throws shrooms and can throw them further by making them bounce over a previously placed mushroom to plant them at a distance now.
Also relevant.
Zac is the same, 'cept he jumps from even farther now (think at level 7 or 9 he actually beats Noc's ult).
Soraka was reworked, you can't mash Q and zone people now, nor can you give mana back. Instead you give your health to allies at a high rate and land skillshot Q to heal yourself, and your silence is a field you place on the ground, good zoning, big "fuck you" to some characters.
Riven's gonna be broken again because armour was reduced across the board with compensations only coming late.
Elise is broken because they buffed Cocoon massively, and she has better sustain and dps through spiderlings (their attacks deal magical damage now).
I dunno if you were still here when AP Yi got deleted.
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On August 25 2015 23:08 Alaric wrote:
Another random question, can't test now: can he still go through minions during E? Tooltip isn't clear if they removed the MS penalty while he does it, or if they removed it altogether.
He still goes through minions when spinning.
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On August 26 2015 00:28 Alaric wrote:Teemo throws shrooms and can throw them further by making them bounce over a previously placed mushroom to plant them at a distance now. Also relevant. Zac is the same, 'cept he jumps from even farther now (think at level 7 or 9 he actually beats Noc's ult). Soraka was reworked, you can't mash Q and zone people now, nor can you give mana back. Instead you give your health to allies at a high rate and land skillshot Q to heal yourself, and your silence is a field you place on the ground, good zoning, big "fuck you" to some characters. Riven's gonna be broken again because armour was reduced across the board with compensations only coming late. Elise is broken because they buffed Cocoon massively, and she has better sustain and dps through spiderlings (their attacks deal magical damage now). I dunno if you were still here when AP Yi got deleted.
Hahaha what you can move while stealthed in bushes as Teemo now? That's huuuuuuuge for lane plays holy crap.
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38 Ping when I was playing at 88 ping. This is glorious....
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On August 26 2015 00:22 Requizen wrote:
Coming back after quite some time. How are some of my old faves doing? Namely: Yi, Kha, Riven, Teemo, Cait, Elise, Zac, Soraka?
Yi is Yi, he either goes off or blows up.
Kha is sleeper strong.
Riven remains the same as she ever was. If you play her well you can carry, if you don't you're effectively useless.
Teemo is still satan
Cait is largely useless imo. ADC is in a rough spot right now and that hurts Cait more than most.
Elise was op last patch, strong this patch.
Zac is... ???
Soraka is full "Their X, our X." Her presence is either oppressive or laughable.
On August 26 2015 00:34 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 00:28 Alaric wrote:Teemo throws shrooms and can throw them further by making them bounce over a previously placed mushroom to plant them at a distance now. Also relevant. Zac is the same, 'cept he jumps from even farther now (think at level 7 or 9 he actually beats Noc's ult). Soraka was reworked, you can't mash Q and zone people now, nor can you give mana back. Instead you give your health to allies at a high rate and land skillshot Q to heal yourself, and your silence is a field you place on the ground, good zoning, big "fuck you" to some characters. Riven's gonna be broken again because armour was reduced across the board with compensations only coming late. Elise is broken because they buffed Cocoon massively, and she has better sustain and dps through spiderlings (their attacks deal magical damage now). I dunno if you were still here when AP Yi got deleted. Hahaha what you can move while stealthed in bushes as Teemo now? That's huuuuuuuge for lane plays holy crap.
http://liquidlegends.net/forum/shopkeepers-inn/199350-sfw-random-pics-and-vids?page=304#6064
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Yeah I'm going to play so much Teemo now
Batman is back boiz
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On August 26 2015 00:04 Caiada wrote:
Titanic being a proper AA reset and scaling significantly off of health is a big deal too. Probably the item I underrated most, after playing with it. Darius with two quick AA resets is a lot of quick damage in a more usable AoE than I expected.
The damage on titanic is really amazingly high. It's like buying another ability that does 40+10% max health plus 1.0 AD.
At 3000 HP that is going to be nearly more damage than an AA+Q combo. (More if you're lowish on AD or Highish on HP). Titanic more than doubles that combo damage considering the AD. No other item on the game gets close to that kind of power increase for any champion. Except maybe deathcap on abilities like zyra plants, but certainly not across an entire ability set.
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On August 25 2015 22:25 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 20:51 Slayer91 wrote:
thing is garen was almost certainly op before and nobody realized it, they are giving us a nerfed garen (though probably slightly stronger later) and everyones like wow so strong
thats my theory, I could be wrong, DMP is pretty good on garen. The new items certainly add a lot to his power. It's much easier to build the kind of mixed defense/damage that garen wants. But he was still pretty strong in the current meta.
Don't think the new items add that much to his power, but rito added to his power organically with the post 16 extra E power. I'd need to test more so I can't back this up too strongly.
On August 25 2015 22:57 Ketara wrote:
There's probably something better than sunfire on garen. Not like he needs waveclear.
Also why LW over BC?
I explained this many times in the garen thread. It was just better. Things are different with more E ticks and new BC combined, it's probably not worth to get LW anymore. You got sunfire because garens ad ratios were only average and he lacked sustained damage, sunfire was the best way to add to his damage/DPS while still building tanky. Was a must have.
On August 25 2015 23:38 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 22:55 Fildun wrote:On August 25 2015 22:45 Goumindong wrote:On August 25 2015 22:38 Fildun wrote:On August 25 2015 22:25 Goumindong wrote:On August 25 2015 20:51 Slayer91 wrote:
thing is garen was almost certainly op before and nobody realized it, they are giving us a nerfed garen (though probably slightly stronger later) and everyones like wow so strong
thats my theory, I could be wrong, DMP is pretty good on garen. The new items certainly add a lot to his power. It's much easier to build the kind of mixed defense/damage that garen wants. But he was still pretty strong in the current meta. Nah, not really. He used to be able to do a really good defense/damage build as well. Well no. He could build offensive and defensive items but those are less efficient than hybrid items. And there were only two, maybe three, decent hybrid items for him. One of which was newish (Cleaver, Maw, BT). This means that, by necessity he will or can have more raw stats after a set amount of gold. Now there are 4+ good hybrid items. And more than one hybrid item if the enemy doesn't have a strong Magic damage presence. DMP Is really good on him but so is titanic (and Steraks) What build do you go then? Old build used to be Sunfire/Randuins/Maw/Boots/Thornmail/LW, which gives a lot of damage and tankyness. In the new build you replace Randuins with DMP, which is basically the same except you get random mobies. Besides that I don't see how any of the new items are better than the old ones so please explain all these claims you make. Yea see this build has three full tank items, one hybrid, and one pure damage. The fact that you have sunfire in there when garen is neither a split pusher nor has any lack of wave clear is really telling for his weak itemization options before the last patch. You can go cleaver, maw, DMP, titanic, randuins, boots and have more tank, more damage, and more utility. If you need more of a certain defense you can drop one of the offensive mix for another pure defensive item. So on so forth. So you spin through the front line, stacking BC for your allies. Then DMP auto, q, titanic, (ult if necessary) a squishy and you've won the fight because you've done 1500 raw damage in the space of basically one auto attack not including your ult.
Don't know why you view sunfire as a split pushing item. It is useful for champs who split push but it's not its only use. Garen had a 4.5s 45% move buff and a 2.5 second silence so he got a lot of guaranteed (garenteed) damage from sunfire more than most champs (malphite still uses it better maybe).
Old build was cheap as fuck so yeah it's gonna seem worse when you replace 2k gold items with 3k gold items. If they didnt have much ap I often went triple randuins though so I guess you have a point LOL. Still triple rand and thornmail was +310 armour (+30% scaling w and masteries so like +400) and 1500 hp.
Haven't tried going garen without sunfire, probably sucks even harder now with shittier midgame damage.
About the crit argument you guys are having, I had a glance but I'm gonna invalidate all your math if you didn't take into account IE crit damage increase. With 55% crit (IE+PD) Crits should deal 75% of an adcs pure auto damage. So its -7.5% damage. Also take into account LW reduces the effect of armour. New randuins should be a significant improvement in EHP but I didn't do the meth.
Also does anyone know how it scales with the reinforced armour mastery? Changes things slightly.
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The math I didnshould let you plug in any % you want with any % of DPS reduction. Edit: I considered correcting the amount of damage reduction but it wasn't worth it. At 50% crit with no crit damage multiple besides base crits are 66% of your damage so 10% crit red is about 6.6 % reduction
The thing that looks wonky (but isn't once you think about it) is that the % reductions cancel out on the scaling (IE the armor portion) but not the "base" portion (Ie the fact that at zero armor you take 100% damage)
I would agree with you on the sunfire but the actual amount of damage is so low. It's max 40 DPS. It's like a third to a quarter of the damage you would expect thot mail to do. (An ADC which does 300 DPS will do 100 DPS to himself). Which is really tiny compared with titanic adding some 720 damage to your AA-Q (titanic) combo or the effect of not dying for longer with a stronger tank item
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On August 26 2015 03:45 Goumindong wrote:
The math I didnshould let you plug in any % you want with any % of DPS reduction. Edit: I considered correcting the amount of damage reduction but it wasn't worth it. At 50% crit with no crit damage multiple besides base crits are 66% of your damage so 10% crit red is about 6.6 % reduction
The thing that looks wonky (but isn't once you think about it) is that the % reductions cancel out on the scaling (IE the armor portion) but not the "base" portion (Ie the fact that at zero armor you take 100% damage)
I would agree with you on the sunfire but the actual amount of damage is so low. It's max 40 DPS. It's like a third to a quarter of the damage you would expect thot mail to do. (An ADC which does 300 DPS will do 100 DPS to himself). Which is really tiny compared with titanic adding some 720 damage to your AA-Q (titanic) combo or the effect of not dying for longer with a stronger tank item
the amount of damage sunfire does in lane or in an early teamfight can be quite big though, for a fairly low cost and good balance of stat
you can always sell it later
the AA-Q-Titanic combo is wonky
most of the time you need to Q first to gapclose so its more likely a Q-titanic combo
i havent played much with the new items though, maybe titanic first garen is good actually
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The fact that it's multiplicative has a small effect but very small once you consider that the base is with the new mastery. I.E at 50% no mult crit the DPS reduction is about 6.66% and with the mastery like 6.3%. Not a large difference.
55% crit plus .5 bonus crit mod (so IE and PD) crits make up about 75% of your DPS (not including abilities/botrk)
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I said that like 3 posts ago wat
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I did some random testing on Garen in a few games with Titanic once I realized how well the active scaled. The double reset thing isn't as reasonable to pull off or as useful as on Darius. The attack windup feels a bit long to do it quickly and often you just want to Q into range, compared to Darius where E slow into W slow keeps them in range easily for the full combo. There's probably some better way to combo it on Garen, but you'll need to be in range already.
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On August 26 2015 04:02 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 03:45 Goumindong wrote:
The math I didnshould let you plug in any % you want with any % of DPS reduction. Edit: I considered correcting the amount of damage reduction but it wasn't worth it. At 50% crit with no crit damage multiple besides base crits are 66% of your damage so 10% crit red is about 6.6 % reduction
The thing that looks wonky (but isn't once you think about it) is that the % reductions cancel out on the scaling (IE the armor portion) but not the "base" portion (Ie the fact that at zero armor you take 100% damage)
I would agree with you on the sunfire but the actual amount of damage is so low. It's max 40 DPS. It's like a third to a quarter of the damage you would expect thot mail to do. (An ADC which does 300 DPS will do 100 DPS to himself). Which is really tiny compared with titanic adding some 720 damage to your AA-Q (titanic) combo or the effect of not dying for longer with a stronger tank item the amount of damage sunfire does in lane or in an early teamfight can be quite big though, for a fairly low cost and good balance of stat you can always sell it later the AA-Q-Titanic combo is wonky most of the time you need to Q first to gapclose so its more likely a Q-titanic combo i havent played much with the new items though, maybe titanic first garen is good actually
Titanic splash will be higher than sunfire damage. And if you don't get that first AA off then q-titanic is even larger increase in damage.
Not sure it's a first item (I would think BC or DMP) but it's definitely up there.
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On August 26 2015 04:14 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 04:02 Slayer91 wrote:On August 26 2015 03:45 Goumindong wrote:
The math I didnshould let you plug in any % you want with any % of DPS reduction. Edit: I considered correcting the amount of damage reduction but it wasn't worth it. At 50% crit with no crit damage multiple besides base crits are 66% of your damage so 10% crit red is about 6.6 % reduction
The thing that looks wonky (but isn't once you think about it) is that the % reductions cancel out on the scaling (IE the armor portion) but not the "base" portion (Ie the fact that at zero armor you take 100% damage)
I would agree with you on the sunfire but the actual amount of damage is so low. It's max 40 DPS. It's like a third to a quarter of the damage you would expect thot mail to do. (An ADC which does 300 DPS will do 100 DPS to himself). Which is really tiny compared with titanic adding some 720 damage to your AA-Q (titanic) combo or the effect of not dying for longer with a stronger tank item the amount of damage sunfire does in lane or in an early teamfight can be quite big though, for a fairly low cost and good balance of stat you can always sell it later the AA-Q-Titanic combo is wonky most of the time you need to Q first to gapclose so its more likely a Q-titanic combo i havent played much with the new items though, maybe titanic first garen is good actually Titanic splash will be higher than sunfire damage. And if you don't get that first AA off then q-titanic is even larger increase in damage. Not sure it's a first item (I would think BC or DMP) but it's definitely up there.
Titanic splash is useless during spin so sunfire damage will probably be higher, especially considering you don't attack on attack cooldown.
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On August 26 2015 04:16 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 04:14 Goumindong wrote:On August 26 2015 04:02 Slayer91 wrote:On August 26 2015 03:45 Goumindong wrote:
The math I didnshould let you plug in any % you want with any % of DPS reduction. Edit: I considered correcting the amount of damage reduction but it wasn't worth it. At 50% crit with no crit damage multiple besides base crits are 66% of your damage so 10% crit red is about 6.6 % reduction
The thing that looks wonky (but isn't once you think about it) is that the % reductions cancel out on the scaling (IE the armor portion) but not the "base" portion (Ie the fact that at zero armor you take 100% damage)
I would agree with you on the sunfire but the actual amount of damage is so low. It's max 40 DPS. It's like a third to a quarter of the damage you would expect thot mail to do. (An ADC which does 300 DPS will do 100 DPS to himself). Which is really tiny compared with titanic adding some 720 damage to your AA-Q (titanic) combo or the effect of not dying for longer with a stronger tank item the amount of damage sunfire does in lane or in an early teamfight can be quite big though, for a fairly low cost and good balance of stat you can always sell it later the AA-Q-Titanic combo is wonky most of the time you need to Q first to gapclose so its more likely a Q-titanic combo i havent played much with the new items though, maybe titanic first garen is good actually Titanic splash will be higher than sunfire damage. And if you don't get that first AA off then q-titanic is even larger increase in damage. Not sure it's a first item (I would think BC or DMP) but it's definitely up there. Titanic splash is useless during spin so sunfire damage will probably be higher, especially considering you don't attack on attack cooldown.
Keep in mind that Titanic has AD, so it will be empowering the spin by a signficant amount.
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thats trade off for the sunfire armour though so it's silly to count that
I mean its more cost of ad but sunfire is cheaper
sunfire aoe damage and titanic hydra active are similar in price range I'd guess
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Now that you get free armor for killing minions you should be de-prioritizing it a little anyway (You may be less tanky overall but the marginal advantage of buying armor has been reduced)
Maybe this will make sense. I am not sure how you could justify sunfire over DMP. One fully charged DMP auto will do as much or more than 3 seconds of sunfire damage (depending on when you get the cape) while it has more armor and HP and also 60 move speed and a slow (so after you q a guy you're guaranteed more autos or a good spin) all for nearly the same price.
And then once you have DMP I am not sure how you can justify a sunfire at all in terms of cost. It's more efficient to buy a chain vest, Giants belt, and a pick axe than it is to upgrade to sunfire. Then turn the pickaxe into something useful later (titanic) and the Giants/chain into DMP.
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I hope you do realize that you'll never get a fully charged DMP auto off in lane? As first item Sunfire is just better (we already gave all the reasoning), I don't really see what point you're trying to make here. In a hypothetical 6 item endgame build it's probably better, but that's not what League is about.
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On August 26 2015 05:33 Fildun wrote:
I hope you do realize that you'll never get a fully charged DMP auto off in lane? As first item Sunfire is just better (we already gave all the reasoning), I don't really see what point you're trying to make here. In a hypothetical 6 item endgame build it's probably better, but that's not what League is about.
You do realize that components and a pickaxe is better than sunfire so there is literally no reason to complete it. Those items build into better lategame items with zero disadvantage at any point.
So if the other build is better early and better late it's just plain better.
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If you're building for lane... why Sunfire? There are items with more efficient stats, better passives and actives and that transition better into builds that are a lot more useful this patch.
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On August 26 2015 05:42 Caiada wrote:
If you're building for lane... why Sunfire? There are items with more efficient stats, better passives and actives and that transition better into builds that are a lot more useful this patch.
like what
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Leaning towards Cleaver or Titanic. Cleaver for the movespeed and because it's useful throughout the game because CDR/Pen. Titanic for more damage that scales better, waveclear you don't really need, AA reset of some marginal utility.
I think I would only go Sunfire if there were a risk I would lose all-ins vs some strong AD top. Rengar, maybe Gnar, similar shit. I rush Cleaver on him since I started actually playing him, so idk who else. I think it's pretty clearly a decent first item, but it's a lot of wasted gold value once that point is done with.
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If you're worried about an AD top why not components for DMP and pickaxe then finish the DMP and turn the pickaxe into something useful?
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Should get some actual math analysis of what you get at different gold levels building what into this discussion.
Gou your algebra post was hard to read. Let's say our Garen is at 200 armor and the enemy ADC has IE and PD so crits are 75% of his damage, and also has LW. How much armor is the crit passive worth?
Also how much is it worth at 300 armor?
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This is easier:
ADC damage is 0.55*2.5+0.45 so 1.825 (xadxattack speed)
ADC damage with crit passive is 0.55*2.5*0.9+0.45 so 1.6875
Armourpen: .94*0.65=61.1% of armour is counted
200-->122.2
300-->183.3
Damage base: 1.825/2.222 or 2.833=0.821 or 0.644
Damage crit passive: 1.6875/2.222 or 1.6875/2.833=0.759 or 0.596
Result
@200 armour crit passive reduces damage taken by 7.5%
@300 armour crit passive reduces damage taken by 7.5%
standard
comparison to armour:
1.6875/2.222=1.825/x
x=2.4/-->1.4/0.611=2.29 or 229 armour
1.6875/2.833=1.825/x
x=3.06-->2.06/0.611=3.37 or 337 total armour
Result
@200 armour Randuins passive is as good as 29 armour
@300 armour Randuins passive is as good as 37 armour
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That's not telling us how much armor that 8% is equivalent to though.
Which would tell us if its a buff or nerf vs old randuins.
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Comparison vs old:
+150 gold
-10 armour (-200 gold)
-100 hp (-267 gold)
mew Randuins passive has to be worth 317 gold for it to be cost effective compared to old Randuins.
It easily reaches that after adc has IE PD LW but that's the best case scenario since not everyone who does physical damage has lw and 55% crit.
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Vest/Belt/Pickaxe is 2625. You get 25 AD/380 health/40 armor.
Sunfire is 2600. You get 450 health/45armor and the passive. I usually do 9 as first item time. You can assume faster if you get a kill, slower if you're denied. We'll just assume even. At level 9, the passive is 34 damage per second.
Cleaver's another option, though you will finish it 400 gold later. 40 AD/400 health, 20% CDR, 20 movespeed when you're spinning on guys or spinning away through a wave if you have to. It's a little less than boots 1 of value, so if you wanted to really reach on your approximate gold values, you could add boots to the above two combos.
Titanic is another 300 gold on top of cleaver. 400 health/50 AD/100% health regen and the passive/active. Too lazy to look up exact health values; let's assume 1700. I think that's close. Passive adds an additional 17 damage per AA. Pretty garbage. Active is better; it adds 210. About 7 seconds of Sunfire damage. Of course, if you're going Sunfire, you've got 700 gold to put into stats. Best case is like 20 AD if you go two longswords. More realistic is 760g for Ruby/Long Sword to go into Cleaver. They're close enough, literally a few cs.
Garen's full AD Ratio is 302.5% at level 9. The component combo that was brought up is 25AD over sunfire for the same cost. Assuming you get just the Q AA off and immediately spin on top of him, that's 76 damage. You'll get >3 ticks if you get the full spin off, which likely puts Sunfire marginally ahead in an all-in scenario in addition to the 5 armor. They're probably a lot closer than they should be, given that Sunfire is actually a finished item and falls off heavily. If you AA-QAA, you apply more damage more quickly with the component combo. In a 1v1, at least. There are probably scenarios where the AoE of Sunfire is more important. Pulls ahead on two targets. Dragon fights, big TP skirmishes, and such.
I'm getting tired of math so quickie assessment of other options:
Cleaver is 15 AD more and is probably more damage than the above because of that shred. Really ahead if that 1.6 seconds off Q lets you get one more off. Weaker 1v1s/vs high physical damage.
Titanic is comparable amounts of AD to Cleaver per gold spent, same amount of health, so uh. Close enough? If you're not valuing CDR highly, Titanic is almost certainly better. The shred would need to add ~230 damage to make up for the Titanic AA. Maybe it does? You would get both anyway, it's a question of when/vs who.
Disclaimer: I'm tired so the math probably sucks. I also did not account for situational 1 on 1 spin damage increase or the 100 range on Sunfire possibly getting you an additional tick.
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Scenarios where you are chasing the target waiting for next QE is when sunfire does a lot of damage.
These situations happen more frequently than you think but may not justify sunfire unless its highly likely.
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On August 26 2015 09:15 Slayer91 wrote:
Comparison vs old:
+150 gold
-10 armour (-200 gold)
-100 hp (-267 gold)
mew Randuins passive has to be worth 317 gold for it to be cost effective compared to old Randuins.
It easily reaches that after adc has IE PD LW but that's the best case scenario since not everyone who does physical damage has lw and 55% crit.
But that was my original statement. If somebody is building crit randuins was buffed, not nerfed.
What if the ADC is only half of the incoming damage you're taking, is it still a buff?
Could we say that if 2 people on the enemy team have crit then randuins is super valuable?
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On August 26 2015 09:16 Slayer91 wrote:
Scenarios where you are chasing the target waiting for next QE is when sunfire does a lot of damage.
These situations happen more frequently than you think but may not justify sunfire unless its highly likely.
Yeah, the 100 range on Sunfire is a bit difficult to judge in those cases. Probably better in scenarios where you're just chasing the guy off the wave over and over, which happened to me a lot with the poor gap closer thing.
Other things I didn't mention:
The moment you hit 10, you get higher potential spin damage, slightly increasing the value of AD/the value of Cleaver shred/the amount of times you get 7 ticks because they happen faster.
Sterak's. It's 22 AD and 500 health for the same cost as Sunfire, plus a sizable shield. But they probably just back off in the 1v1. If you flash on them, you have a very efficient bundle of stats with which to kill them, and the shield probably blocks a tower shot often enough to consider.
DMP. Feels like a bad first item if you're playing to kill people. I always want to kill people as Garen :V
Oh and the component build gets you DMP first finished item and gets you into Titanic next easily. Titanic/DMP is almost certainly better at that point in the game than Sunfire/anything.
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New morde is such an enigma.I still have no clue what his power level is.Obviously he is niche so can't just try to put him in any teamcomp but it just seems so random.Leaning more towards gimick that works cuz people are retarded though.
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With IE and PD the damage passive decreases damage by about 7.5% (0.9246575342465753 is the multiplier)
In order to hit that multiplier we need to increase armor for an 8.1% reduction (1/x)
Here is our formula
v/(1-R)+ .0v*Armor = Extra
v=8.1 (so .0v = .081)
Armor = 200
1-R = .611
Base Portion:
8.1/.611 = 13.2
Armor Portion:
.081 x 200 = 16.2
.081 x 300 = 24.3
So at 200 armor the passive is worth 29.4 armor vs an ADC's auto attacks only
At 300 armor we do the same thing but we get 37.5 armor since the armor portion is larger.
We can figure an additional BC fully stacked into that which changes the base portion to 8.1/.4277 which adds 5.73 armor onto the totals for both. So about 35 and 43 armor respectively
With no penetration we subtract 5.1 armor from each. So about 24 and 32 armor respectively
Edit: If we figured that you also have the defensive mastery crit reduction this changes things slightly but not enough to matter. The damage reduction multiplier becomes 0.9266666666666667 and so the 1/x reduction is 7.9% So the final armor values are reduced by about 3% in all cases. A total of 1.1 armor for the full BC stacked 300 armor comparison.
Vs Ashe these numbers are a lot higher of course since she always crits. Its worth 36.6 armor at 200 armor and 46.6 at 300 (with just LW) ed: With full BC stacks its worth 43/53 armor at 200/300 base armor! Get fucked Ashe!
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On August 26 2015 09:33 nafta wrote:
New morde is such an enigma.I still have no clue what his power level is.Obviously he is niche so can't just try to put him in any teamcomp but it just seems so random.Leaning more towards gimick that works cuz people are retarded though.
I think you need a super engage comp. He already can't do too much to tanks (3rd q is still less damage than an ADC) and needs his ghost to be effective. You probably want like a full engage team with olaf or something to get your ghost off and let you get in range of important targets. If your team gets zoned by tanks what can you do lol
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So we can say that the passive is roughly worth 30 armor against the ADC, which is worth roughly 600 gold, so if the ADC is half of the incoming damage on you it's about equivalent cost effectiveness to old Randuins.
Which means if more than one person on the enemy team has crit, or if it's a team where the ADC is the majority of their damage, or if the enemy team has a Zekes, then Randuins is probably super value.
Those aren't exact figures mind, just reasonable ballparks.
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On August 26 2015 09:40 Ketara wrote:
So we can say that the passive is roughly worth 30 armor against the ADC, which is worth roughly 600 gold, so if the ADC is half of the incoming damage on you it's about equivalent cost effectiveness to old Randuins.
Which means if more than one person on the enemy team has crit, or if it's a team where the ADC is the majority of their damage, or if the enemy team has a Zekes, then Randuins is probably super value.
Those aren't exact figures mind, just reasonable ballparks.
Or Ashe. Always build vs Ashe.
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Indeed. Ashe Yasuobro really fucking buy that Randuins.
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I dub Ketara forger of spreadsheets, he should make one for Garen and stuff
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You realize the Lux spreadsheet took me a good 30 hours to make.
I'm not just gonna make another one.
Maybe if you paid me QQ.
Would be pretty easy to use it to calculate efficiency of defensive stats on other champions though, since you can just plug in values for armor and MR and HP. It's damage where you'd need a different spreadsheet.
How can I upload this so people can download and use it?
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[
Garen's full AD Ratio is 302.5% at level 9.
AA-Q-E (full ticks) at level 9 should be at least a 4.815 ratio.
E ticks 7 times for a rank 1 tick damage of .345 AD minimum = 2.418
AA = 1.0
Q Hits like a normal AA but does .4 Bonus -> 1.4 AD
Sum = 4.815
Just Q-E does 3.815 AD.
AA-Q->full E = 4.815 AD. AA-Q-Full E-AA = 5.815
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If the target is alone this goes up to 5.62/6.62
If you ranked E to max rank this goes up to 5.025/6.025 and 5.9/6.9 vs a target who is alone.
Listing rank 1/rank 5 because not actually sure you shouldn't be ranking W for the DR reduction duration increase or Q for the move speed duration when i started the analysis. Leveling up E gets you between 19 and 38 base damage and .04 -> .08 AD scaling. The AD scaling increase is basically non existent. If you have 300 AD and are level 10 you will add 100-130 damage for a total effective level up increase of 63. Which would be a really good level up value but you need to have a shit tonne of stats to make it work. Level up E last it looks like because you're never going to have enough AD or enough spins until very late to make it worth it.
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you rarely get auto q e though
hilariously maxing W>Q>E might be viable lol
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I didn't count the single AA on Q I was using for worst case scenario, because I'm bad. That's another 25 damage on top of the 76 number, which keeps them pretty even until you get multiple AAs. 402.5% with rank 5 E.
Level 10 Spin vs Q damage is 105 extra base compared to 100, without the 1v1 increase. It's debatable; Q is probably more consistent because of the movement speed. There's probably an argument for all three.
But the AD ratio is honestly not different enough to change much. It marginally puts the builds that get AD closer to Sunfire.
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On August 26 2015 10:18 Slayer91 wrote:
you rarely get auto q e though
hilariously maxing W>Q>E might be viable lol
Well yea but even a Q-E is 3.8 AD scaling and you should probably be able to get an AA off on the end of that too.
edit: Probably Q,E,W>Q>E or E,Q, W>Q>E if you're going to do it. Giving up the spin or Q at level 1 seems too dangerous
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The bonuses for levelling E at low levels are pretty shit.
When you only get 5 spins its 19+4% AD on level up, where Q is 25 and a longer movespeed duration. Even if you get a full spin off on an isolated target the damage bonus for an E level outdoes the damage bonus for a Q level by like, less than 5.
When you're getting 10 spins levelling E is def. worth it.
Edit: At what level do you get to 7 spins? 7 spins appears to be the point where an E level outdamages a Q level against a not-isolated target.
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7. I did the full table in the Garen thread for Slayer.
Edit: I mean, even if the damage is higher i am not sure its so much higher that, if you're building for either lane domination or mid game team fights you wouldn't want both the greater move speed duration on Q and the greater DR duration on W than the extra damage on E.
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I'm not sure the damage reduction is all that great for lane though?
I mean, you're regenning from your passive anyway, losing HP in a trade for Garen is pretty inconsequential.
Seems like for lane levelling Q would be the best?
I dunno. I could imagine a world where vs. different champions the skill order changes dramatically, since you get such tiny bonuses from all of them.
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losing hp isn't inconsequential at all you have to have passive up to regen and even then its a minor amount until level11
you can't cs while regenning unless you have them zoned, it's a bad situation if you are relying on it.
The idea is having 3 more seconds of damage reduction should be quite significant as it gives them no window to do their full damage, against someone who trades in a burst like maokai rumble or something you should be able to reduce their whole damage output by more than you would gain damage if you maxed E.
Q max should be best against ranged champs now
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Yeah that's why I'm saying I can easily picture it being that your skill order completely changes vs. different champions.
But if you were going for the best damage, wouldn't you do Q till Q level 3, and then max E?
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On August 26 2015 10:49 Ketara wrote:
Yeah that's why I'm saying I can easily picture it being that your skill order completely changes vs. different champions.
But if you were going for the best damage, wouldn't you do Q till Q level 3, and then max E?
Max damage at level 7+ is still E max. Since you get the damage retroactively when you add spins. You're just slightly weaker until 7 when you do that.
Providing, of course that leveling up the Q for speed up doesn't get you more auto attacks/more effective spin ticks.
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On August 26 2015 09:54 Ketara wrote:
You realize the Lux spreadsheet took me a good 30 hours to make.
I'm not just gonna make another one.
Maybe if you paid me QQ.
Would be pretty easy to use it to calculate efficiency of defensive stats on other champions though, since you can just plug in values for armor and MR and HP. It's damage where you'd need a different spreadsheet.
How can I upload this so people can download and use it?
Put it in google spreadsheets and set it people with link can view. Then you can make a copy of it to your own google drive and play around with it.
Or you can basically do the same thing with Dropbox.
I can try and put together a Garen one on the weekend if people are still arguing about it, but I'm up to my neck in financial models so I'm not sure more Excel is what I want to be doing in my free time.
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Does anyone know if Garens Villain mechanic takes dragon as priority? I just had a game where my teammates got a bunch of kills away from me while I was taking dragon but then I became the villain.
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On August 26 2015 17:26 Numy wrote:
Does anyone know if Garens Villain mechanic takes dragon as priority? I just had a game where my teammates got a bunch of kills away from me while I was taking dragon but then I became the villain.
I think its kind of simpler, the villain is the one who made the last kill, perhaps drake and baron counts
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Had some really good games as Amumu lately. Since the champ thread is super old and dead, anyone have any tips, or is he the same old mummy? I was thinking of getting mass MPen runes to help his damage output a bit, but I'm not sure if it's worth it.
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On August 26 2015 23:27 Requizen wrote:
Had some really good games as Amumu lately. Since the champ thread is super old and dead, anyone have any tips, or is he the same old mummy? I was thinking of getting mass MPen runes to help his damage output a bit, but I'm not sure if it's worth it.
http://champion.gg/champion/Amumu
Champion.gg is the quick and dirty for when you want to get dirty quick. Beware stats pulled from low game totals though. Now git good so we can duo later.
Most common build I see is Guize>Rylais>Cinderhulk>Abyssal/FH because full soloq.
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On August 26 2015 23:28 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 23:27 Requizen wrote:
Had some really good games as Amumu lately. Since the champ thread is super old and dead, anyone have any tips, or is he the same old mummy? I was thinking of getting mass MPen runes to help his damage output a bit, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. http://champion.gg/champion/AmumuChampion.gg is the quick and dirty for when you want to get dirty quick. Beware stats pulled from low game totals though. Now git good so we can duo later. Most common build I see is Guize>Rylais>Cinderhulk>Abyssal/FH because full soloq.
Yeah I've given up on carrying the game as Assassins. I just suck butts at them, as usual. Good to know some things haven't changed
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On August 26 2015 23:36 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 23:28 Gahlo wrote:On August 26 2015 23:27 Requizen wrote:
Had some really good games as Amumu lately. Since the champ thread is super old and dead, anyone have any tips, or is he the same old mummy? I was thinking of getting mass MPen runes to help his damage output a bit, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. http://champion.gg/champion/AmumuChampion.gg is the quick and dirty for when you want to get dirty quick. Beware stats pulled from low game totals though. Now git good so we can duo later. Most common build I see is Guize>Rylais>Cinderhulk>Abyssal/FH because full soloq. Yeah I've given up on carrying the game as Assassins. I just suck butts at them, as usual. Good to know some things haven't changed
Also, you may have went a [i]tad/i] overboard on the armor with that one Amumu game. Building MR against Vlad and Vel is a good skill toi have.
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On August 26 2015 23:11 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 17:26 Numy wrote:
Does anyone know if Garens Villain mechanic takes dragon as priority? I just had a game where my teammates got a bunch of kills away from me while I was taking dragon but then I became the villain. I think its kind of simpler, the villain is the one who made the last kill, perhaps drake and baron counts
It can't be as I was just playing a game where a Gnar that had 2 more kills then Lee was the villain even though the Lee was the one that got the last kill. I even asked in chat and no one knew, said it may be because Gnar had more kills but that doesn't follow how it's been described?
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On August 26 2015 23:38 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 23:36 Requizen wrote:On August 26 2015 23:28 Gahlo wrote:On August 26 2015 23:27 Requizen wrote:
Had some really good games as Amumu lately. Since the champ thread is super old and dead, anyone have any tips, or is he the same old mummy? I was thinking of getting mass MPen runes to help his damage output a bit, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. http://champion.gg/champion/AmumuChampion.gg is the quick and dirty for when you want to get dirty quick. Beware stats pulled from low game totals though. Now git good so we can duo later. Most common build I see is Guize>Rylais>Cinderhulk>Abyssal/FH because full soloq. Yeah I've given up on carrying the game as Assassins. I just suck butts at them, as usual. Good to know some things haven't changed Also, you may have went a [i]tad/i] overboard on the armor with that one Amumu game. Building MR against Vlad and Vel is a good skill toi have.
Considering how fed the Kalista and Shaco were, I still stand by my decision.
Though I probably could have gone Randuins instead of Thornmail to get some extra health.
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On August 26 2015 23:27 Requizen wrote:
Had some really good games as Amumu lately. Since the champ thread is super old and dead, anyone have any tips, or is he the same old mummy? I was thinking of getting mass MPen runes to help his damage output a bit, but I'm not sure if it's worth it.
I've been going runeglaive and then whatever mix between tank and hybrid so maybe locket because it's op and then zhonyas/abyssal/rylais type stuff
Theres no point going tank amumu because sejuani does it straight up better
for some reason the highest winrate amumu is completely retarded and maxes W first. I get 3 points in E and max Q, and I also aim for max cdr with 20% from runes/masteries and 20% from items. A 1k 500 damage nuke+stun+gap closer too good to have on a long cd.
AP blues probably not worth just for clearing. But then who knows it's early vs lategame thing.
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On August 26 2015 23:48 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 23:27 Requizen wrote:
Had some really good games as Amumu lately. Since the champ thread is super old and dead, anyone have any tips, or is he the same old mummy? I was thinking of getting mass MPen runes to help his damage output a bit, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I've been going runeglaive and then whatever mix between tank and hybrid so maybe locket because it's op and then zhonyas/abyssal/rylais type stuff Theres no point going tank amumu because sejuani does it straight up better for some reason the highest winrate amumu is completely retarded and maxes W first. I get 3 points in E and max Q, and I also aim for max cdr with 20% from runes/masteries and 20% from items. A 1k 500 damage nuke+stun+gap closer too good to have on a long cd. AP blues probably not worth just for clearing.
I'm still getting used to the new Jungle items. I was getting Cinderhulk just to boost clear time, but I guess that's kinda redundant on Amumu past a few levels. I really, really like the new Jungle item paradigm, but it is a lot to take in at once.
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On August 26 2015 23:27 Requizen wrote:
Had some really good games as Amumu lately. Since the champ thread is super old and dead, anyone have any tips, or is he the same old mummy? I was thinking of getting mass MPen runes to help his damage output a bit, but I'm not sure if it's worth it.
I have a rune page with mpen marks/glyphs/quints that I would sometimes use on amumu last season. I haven't really used it much this season: the new jungle is such a pain to clear that I get better results with runes giving faster/healthier clears.
I tried zeke one game as a cheap way to itemize damage on amumu and it looked promising. Has anyone else tried it?
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The argument against Zeke's on non-supports is that you're never close enough to a carry to use the active. On the other hand it's easy to build and pretty gold efficient, and the active cranks it up to like 3x gold efficiency or something ridiculous.
I used to build IBG on Amumu for damage, but Zeke's is likely superior.
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On August 26 2015 23:55 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 23:48 Slayer91 wrote:On August 26 2015 23:27 Requizen wrote:
Had some really good games as Amumu lately. Since the champ thread is super old and dead, anyone have any tips, or is he the same old mummy? I was thinking of getting mass MPen runes to help his damage output a bit, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I've been going runeglaive and then whatever mix between tank and hybrid so maybe locket because it's op and then zhonyas/abyssal/rylais type stuff Theres no point going tank amumu because sejuani does it straight up better for some reason the highest winrate amumu is completely retarded and maxes W first. I get 3 points in E and max Q, and I also aim for max cdr with 20% from runes/masteries and 20% from items. A 1k 500 damage nuke+stun+gap closer too good to have on a long cd. AP blues probably not worth just for clearing. I'm still getting used to the new Jungle items. I was getting Cinderhulk just to boost clear time, but I guess that's kinda redundant on Amumu past a few levels. I really, really like the new Jungle item paradigm, but it is a lot to take in at once.
QW-->runeglaive auto-->wait 2 seconds-->E+runeglaive
pretty much clears out the camp it's faster than cinderhulk
On August 27 2015 00:15 ticklishmusic wrote:
The argument against Zeke's on non-supports is that you're never close enough to a carry to use the active. On the other hand it's easy to build and pretty gold efficient, and the active cranks it up to like 3x gold efficiency or something ridiculous.
I used to build IBG on Amumu for damage, but Zeke's is likely superior.
IBG was good on amumu because he had mana issues, runeglaive does the same thing now
zekes probably not that good on amumu though, most of what you do is at the start of the fight so you want to itemize for that, having zhonyas and staying alive is better than the chance of a zekes proc for your adc
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On August 27 2015 00:27 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 23:55 Requizen wrote:On August 26 2015 23:48 Slayer91 wrote:On August 26 2015 23:27 Requizen wrote:
Had some really good games as Amumu lately. Since the champ thread is super old and dead, anyone have any tips, or is he the same old mummy? I was thinking of getting mass MPen runes to help his damage output a bit, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I've been going runeglaive and then whatever mix between tank and hybrid so maybe locket because it's op and then zhonyas/abyssal/rylais type stuff Theres no point going tank amumu because sejuani does it straight up better for some reason the highest winrate amumu is completely retarded and maxes W first. I get 3 points in E and max Q, and I also aim for max cdr with 20% from runes/masteries and 20% from items. A 1k 500 damage nuke+stun+gap closer too good to have on a long cd. AP blues probably not worth just for clearing. I'm still getting used to the new Jungle items. I was getting Cinderhulk just to boost clear time, but I guess that's kinda redundant on Amumu past a few levels. I really, really like the new Jungle item paradigm, but it is a lot to take in at once. QW-->runeglaive auto-->wait 2 seconds-->E+runeglaive pretty much clears out the camp it's faster than cinderhulk Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 00:15 ticklishmusic wrote:
The argument against Zeke's on non-supports is that you're never close enough to a carry to use the active. On the other hand it's easy to build and pretty gold efficient, and the active cranks it up to like 3x gold efficiency or something ridiculous.
I used to build IBG on Amumu for damage, but Zeke's is likely superior. IBG was good on amumu because he had mana issues, runeglaive does the same thing now zekes probably not that good on amumu though, most of what you do is at the start of the fight so you want to itemize for that, having zhonyas and staying alive is better than the chance of a zekes proc for your adc
What about the Machete upgrades? Seems to me that Stalker's for ganking or Ranger's for clearing seem to be the best options, are there reasons to take Poacher's or Skirmisher's?
I feel like between Q and Ult, Amumu doesn't need the extra ganking power, but then again he doesn't need the extra clearing power. Maybe Chilling Smite is better anyway just to have the extra slow?
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Yeah I don't think I've played Amumu with Runeglaive before-- does it make mana completely trivial, or would adding Zeke's still help out there (8% of more max mana, a little more dps? The 10% cdr would let you swap out some cdr runes for some early game stuff maybe.
Probably best to conduit your mid though, 50% crit doesn't do a huge amount for your AD until he's 2 items or more. Amumu + mid with conduit active is a whole shit load of aoe magic dmg. Seems like it could be pretty strong early-mid, then pick up Zhonyas when enemies start getting blow up potential.
^I'd say chilling smite, make a followup bandage really ez
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You still have to pay for it. I haven't had any serious mana issues with amumu since I've been building it, thats about 20 games or so.
I used to be a problem for me so much that I'd have to get a glacial shroud at some point.
Runeglaive gives you that 2 Q buffer mana that tends to kill you at the end of a teamfight (or lose you some kills) and also the sustained mana which allows you to clear jungle and still be able to gank on the fly. More mana will only be useful for rare super extended teamfights or times where you miss like 4 Q's trying to engage.
I imagine the reason Q max last was so popular on amumu is because a 120 mana ~6s cd was burning your mana too quickly.
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On August 27 2015 00:31 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 00:27 Slayer91 wrote:On August 26 2015 23:55 Requizen wrote:On August 26 2015 23:48 Slayer91 wrote:On August 26 2015 23:27 Requizen wrote:
Had some really good games as Amumu lately. Since the champ thread is super old and dead, anyone have any tips, or is he the same old mummy? I was thinking of getting mass MPen runes to help his damage output a bit, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I've been going runeglaive and then whatever mix between tank and hybrid so maybe locket because it's op and then zhonyas/abyssal/rylais type stuff Theres no point going tank amumu because sejuani does it straight up better for some reason the highest winrate amumu is completely retarded and maxes W first. I get 3 points in E and max Q, and I also aim for max cdr with 20% from runes/masteries and 20% from items. A 1k 500 damage nuke+stun+gap closer too good to have on a long cd. AP blues probably not worth just for clearing. I'm still getting used to the new Jungle items. I was getting Cinderhulk just to boost clear time, but I guess that's kinda redundant on Amumu past a few levels. I really, really like the new Jungle item paradigm, but it is a lot to take in at once. QW-->runeglaive auto-->wait 2 seconds-->E+runeglaive pretty much clears out the camp it's faster than cinderhulk On August 27 2015 00:15 ticklishmusic wrote:
The argument against Zeke's on non-supports is that you're never close enough to a carry to use the active. On the other hand it's easy to build and pretty gold efficient, and the active cranks it up to like 3x gold efficiency or something ridiculous.
I used to build IBG on Amumu for damage, but Zeke's is likely superior. IBG was good on amumu because he had mana issues, runeglaive does the same thing now zekes probably not that good on amumu though, most of what you do is at the start of the fight so you want to itemize for that, having zhonyas and staying alive is better than the chance of a zekes proc for your adc What about the Machete upgrades? Seems to me that Stalker's for ganking or Ranger's for clearing seem to be the best options, are there reasons to take Poacher's or Skirmisher's? I feel like between Q and Ult, Amumu doesn't need the extra ganking power, but then again he doesn't need the extra clearing power. Maybe Chilling Smite is better anyway just to have the extra slow?
For mummy I'd guess stalkers always.
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If you don't really badly need purple smite, it's almost always better to have blue or red.
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And if you really badly need purple smite you maybe want to consider playing a different jungle champ.
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On August 27 2015 00:50 Caiada wrote:
If you don't really badly need purple smite, it's almost always better to have blue or red.
Would Red really do a lot for Amumu? He's not really an Auto Attach champion, and should be tanky enough that the damage reduction isn't totally necessary.
What champs really enjoy Red Smite? Assassins that don't need Blue Smite?
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Australia18228 Posts
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On August 27 2015 01:12 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 00:50 Caiada wrote:
If you don't really badly need purple smite, it's almost always better to have blue or red. Would Red really do a lot for Amumu? He's not really an Auto Attach champion, and should be tanky enough that the damage reduction isn't totally necessary. What champs really enjoy Red Smite? Assassins that don't need Blue Smite?
Not a whole lot. It used to be much better. Was very popular on top-laners until nerfs happened.
Think it's decent on Shyv, but she usually wants blue. Same with Lee. Hec goes it sometimes. Those are the only ones that even come to mind of the popular junglers.
On Amumu specifically, I think I'd go blue almost all of the time to hit Qs easier.
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On August 27 2015 01:25 Osmoses wrote:
Yi/Rengo?
Oh, Yi, definitely. Rengar probably goes purple to get 6 faster but probably decent on him.
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This champion gg site is dangerous, I'm just looking at all the characters I want to play now haha.
I want to try out Hec, Rammus, Gragas, Nid, and Voli jungle now. I've actually gotten Jungle quite consistently in my games recently, which is nice. Do people still Mao jungle or is he just Top now?
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Hec jungle is not very good anymore because of the increased mana cost on his Q
Voli and Rammus is ok
Gragas and Nid super strong (better in competitive from my xp though)
Mao is definitely more of a top, tree is still super slow at clearing.
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On August 27 2015 01:43 ticklishmusic wrote:
Rammus is ok
I chortled
But yeah, I'll probably play around on Bear and Armordillo
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I mean, I still jungled Mao on my smurf while Gold III duoing with a Silver II (and with MPen/armour/MR/AD runes to boot), so it can work. But clearly not optimal.
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On August 27 2015 00:52 Ketara wrote:
And if you really badly need purple smite you maybe want to consider playing a different jungle champ.
I generally agree with this sentiment though you kind of need it on xin, xin may be strong enough to justify his cancer clear.
I always go blue smite on mumu and rammus. Anyone with AoE clear doesn't really need it because it doesn't help you clear the big creep and the sustain is meh, just get a crystalline flask if you need sustain that badly.
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I remember Oddone basically saying, if you don't need to AA the small camps in your clear, you shouldn't get purple smite. That's the very general rule I use, though there's probably exceptions.
Xin feels like he'd be super bullshit with the new items.
His most winning build is still Devourer ????
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Before warrior used to be good because of warrior+ghostblade true damage one shotting, but it was squishy and you needed like to rush double giants belt or sometihng
cinderhulk+ghostblade into tank was good as well
I think new devouurer is just superior to both now, 2 hit q knockup is good and it does more dps than anything else, so you can go full tank and be fine or get wits end or botrk or ghostblade as another damage item and do tons of damage.
Don't know which of the new items you want, DMP is ok but he already has a slow and they don't stack, titanic doesn't seem like it would be too good either. Steraks is good but you want to get some health first because it's not really that cost effective otherwise.
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Makes sense. I just realized it's been like a year since I actually played jungle Xin.
I was thinking something troll as shit like Warrior/Tforce/Sterak's. Dive in and hope you kill something squishy and get out before Sterak shield and your ult resists wear off. Titanic as an additional AA reset is probably decent.
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Xin can be summed as "please let me get three autos off" so it makes sense Devourer which gives on hit damage would be good
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You can get titanic with new devourerrs and go tanky with DMP and maybe some lifesteal and because titanic has a true AS reset you can aa-titanic for an instant knock up if you have Devourer.
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On August 27 2015 03:30 Caiada wrote:
I remember Oddone basically saying, if you don't need to AA the small camps in your clear, you shouldn't get purple smite. That's the very general rule I use, though there's probably exceptions.
Xin feels like he'd be super bullshit with the new items.
His most winning build is still Devourer ????
Sated Q pops up in 2 attacks instead of 3
Sated W heals in 2 attacks instead of 3
Both of those factors make it really strong on him.
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Yeah, but how long does it take to get to 30 stacks, even if you buy it as soon as you have the gold? Unless you're super snowballing for stacks, or ignoring all lanes and hard farming until full, it would take some time.
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average time for devourer is 20-25 minutes, you should be farming anyway so unless your team is getting destroyed and they are camping your jungle it should be fine
You don't NEED the sated to be good with devourer, but it obviously helps
On August 27 2015 03:44 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 03:30 Caiada wrote:
I remember Oddone basically saying, if you don't need to AA the small camps in your clear, you shouldn't get purple smite. That's the very general rule I use, though there's probably exceptions.
Xin feels like he'd be super bullshit with the new items.
His most winning build is still Devourer ???? Sated Q pops up in 2 attacks instead of 3 Sated W heals in 2 attacks instead of 3 Both of those factors make it really strong on him.
who cares about the heal though, like 50 more hp yay
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Alright, I popped into a custom game to see how quick Xin could do the double reset with Titanic. Turns out, it's really fucking quick. You get three autos off in the space of about a second. With Sated Devourer, that's an instant knockup.
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Remember that scuttlecrabs are +2 and dragon is +5, so it is pretty easy to stack up even if you aren't full AFK farming your jungle. If you see easy ganks and can snowball your lanes then you can almost always count on +10 from two dragons as well as uncontested scuttlecrab control.
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On August 27 2015 03:47 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, but how long does it take to get to 30 stacks, even if you buy it as soon as you have the gold? Unless you're super snowballing for stacks, or ignoring all lanes and hard farming until full, it would take some time.
Since Scuttles and Dragon give 2 and 5 stacks respectively, there is a lot of team play potential to getting stacks with Sated as opposed to Feral Flare and old Devourer. In addition the stack cap also curbs junglers from overfarming while they try to "go infinite".
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I dunno, why would you afk farm with Xin anyway, isn't he supposed to have good ganks early on (so before you get Devourer, 'ight)? Plus I assume his clear isn't too hot because is only AoE is E unless you get the purple smite, and he burns mana quickly if you reduce your cooldowns and spam iirc.
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I don't know where all the trailblazer hate is coming from. Trailblazer is a great item when you need to keep your mana and HP up in the jungle. It's especially good on Mumu who has mana problems. It's overall a safer option to buy. Chilling smite is better if you're committed to snowballing the game through ganks, but Mumu's ganks are mediocre until he gets his ult. His ult is also on a really long cd which gives him time to farm the jungle between ganks. If you want to snowball the game through ganking then you should probably pick a different jungler.
There's that, and like 95% of players on champion.gg and probuilds are building trailblazer.
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I take purple smite on almost everyone. (Not Elise).
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On August 27 2015 04:52 Sonnington wrote:
I don't know where all the trailblazer hate is coming from. Trailblazer is a great item when you need to keep your mana and HP up in the jungle. It's especially good on Mumu who has mana problems. It's overall a safer option to buy. Chilling smite is better if you're committed to snowballing the game through ganks, but Mumu's ganks are mediocre until he gets his ult. His ult is also on a really long cd which gives him time to farm the jungle between ganks. If you want to snowball the game through ganking then you should probably pick a different jungler.
There's that, and like 95% of players on champion.gg and probuilds are building trailblazer.
What Slayer was saying is that if you run Runeglaive Enchantment instead of Cinderhulk, you don't have Mana problems.
Of course, Cinderhulk gives you more defensive stats, but Runeglaive has more damage with the Sheen proc, so take that into account.
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Amumu with red buff ganks just fine, especially with his MR shred and good base damage on Q. Just try to walk up to people if positioning allows, and you'll at least burn their flash (and maybe get a kill if you hit a bandage after they do).
It's like Maokai where you wouldn't start a gank with W.
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What champions if any would use Scavenging Smite? It looks like it's designed for people who just want to counterjungle? I can't see a real reason to pick it over any of the other ones.
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On August 27 2015 04:58 Requizen wrote:
What champions if any would use Scavenging Smite? It looks like it's designed for people who just want to counterjungle? I can't see a real reason to pick it over any of the other ones.
Nobody. I don't think there's been one compelling use for it ever and it just screams "ward your jungle and collapse on me."
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White smite is garbage. Practically nobody picks it. Maybe on Nunu in troll scenarios where you just want to be a dick, and even then, you're Nunu. You do that anyway.
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So is the champion.gg site wonky? It lists Kayle, Warwick, and Diana in the top 6 junglers in the game. Maybe it's just one of those skewed stats because only people who are really good with those junglers play them?
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people who pick nunu already want to be a dick.
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Kayle is actually good. Sated is ridiculous on her in soloq. Warwick? He's easy and barely anybody plays him. Probably skews things.
Diana's stats are skewed by her high banrate and the weirdness of their 'performance' formula. I don't put much stock in that particular stat.
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On August 27 2015 05:04 Caiada wrote:
Kayle is actually good. Sated is ridiculous on her in soloq. Warwick? He's easy and barely anybody plays him. Probably skews things.
Diana's stats are skewed by her high banrate and the weirdness of their 'performance' formula. I don't put much stock in that particular stat.
Man I'd love Diana to be a good jungler though. I tried it a lot previously and it was always just a little bad in places, I'd be super stoked if she became a really solid pick for me.
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On August 27 2015 05:04 Caiada wrote:
Kayle is actually good. Sated is ridiculous on her in soloq. Warwick? He's easy and barely anybody plays him. Probably skews things.
Diana's stats are skewed by her high banrate and the weirdness of their 'performance' formula. I don't put much stock in that particular stat.
Is Diana getting banned a lot? I've never seen her banned in any of my games, but that might also be ELO differences. In which league are you?
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Diana is a pretty good jungler from my experience, I remember spamming a few games with her when Runeglaive came out. Would be interesting to see how she works with DMP, seems like that would be pretty good on her. Adds a lot of stickiness and tank stats.
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On August 27 2015 05:09 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 05:04 Caiada wrote:
Kayle is actually good. Sated is ridiculous on her in soloq. Warwick? He's easy and barely anybody plays him. Probably skews things.
Diana's stats are skewed by her high banrate and the weirdness of their 'performance' formula. I don't put much stock in that particular stat. Man I'd love Diana to be a good jungler though. I tried it a lot previously and it was always just a little bad in places, I'd be super stoked if she became a really solid pick for me.
Jungle Diana is legit. Runeglaive and 1250g NLR are godlike on her.
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On August 27 2015 05:21 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 05:04 Caiada wrote:
Kayle is actually good. Sated is ridiculous on her in soloq. Warwick? He's easy and barely anybody plays him. Probably skews things.
Diana's stats are skewed by her high banrate and the weirdness of their 'performance' formula. I don't put much stock in that particular stat. Is Diana getting banned a lot? I've never seen her banned in any of my games, but that might also be ELO differences. In which league are you?
Oh, this is just according to champion.gg stats. That's why I think it's a wonky stat. She's the third most banned mid right now, but people aren't really banning mid champs at the moment.
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On August 27 2015 05:45 ticklishmusic wrote:
Diana is a pretty good jungler from my experience, I remember spamming a few games with her when Runeglaive came out. Would be interesting to see how she works with DMP, seems like that would be pretty good on her. Adds a lot of stickiness and tank stats.
Chilling Smite on her? And then into tanky AP things?
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United States37500 Posts
On August 27 2015 05:02 Requizen wrote:
So is the champion.gg site wonky? It lists Kayle, Warwick, and Diana in the top 6 junglers in the game. Maybe it's just one of those skewed stats because only people who are really good with those junglers play them?
Sounds about right for solo q though. Kayle and Diana are both at a very good place right now and they have the DPS to be carries from the jungle. WW is just a really safe pick and easy initiation. Chances are the enemy team won't punish your lanes all that hard while you afk farm your way to level 6 for reliable ganks.
On August 27 2015 05:58 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 05:45 ticklishmusic wrote:
Diana is a pretty good jungler from my experience, I remember spamming a few games with her when Runeglaive came out. Would be interesting to see how she works with DMP, seems like that would be pretty good on her. Adds a lot of stickiness and tank stats. Chilling Smite on her? And then into tanky AP things?
Stalker's or Ranger's. Build NLR items. Nashor's if you want the CDR.
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If you want to counterjungle, it's often more about smart positioning and invading, and ability to 1v1 / shove out of his own jungle the enemy jungler.
If you move smartly you won't need the shorter smite to steal a camp (and you're rarely going to steal them all anyway), and if you're going to go fight the other guy and force him to recall before his laners collapse the red smite is more powerful.
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On August 27 2015 05:59 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 05:02 Requizen wrote:
So is the champion.gg site wonky? It lists Kayle, Warwick, and Diana in the top 6 junglers in the game. Maybe it's just one of those skewed stats because only people who are really good with those junglers play them? Sounds about right for solo q though. Kayle and Diana are both at a very good place right now and they have the DPS to be carries from the jungle. WW is just a really safe pick and easy initiation. Chances are the enemy team won't punish your lanes all that hard while you afk farm your way to level 6 for reliable ganks. Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 05:58 Requizen wrote:On August 27 2015 05:45 ticklishmusic wrote:
Diana is a pretty good jungler from my experience, I remember spamming a few games with her when Runeglaive came out. Would be interesting to see how she works with DMP, seems like that would be pretty good on her. Adds a lot of stickiness and tank stats. Chilling Smite on her? And then into tanky AP things? Stalker's or Ranger's. Build NLR items. Nashor's if you want the CDR.
Hm... maybe I'll try this tonight.
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On August 27 2015 04:56 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 04:52 Sonnington wrote:
I don't know where all the trailblazer hate is coming from. Trailblazer is a great item when you need to keep your mana and HP up in the jungle. It's especially good on Mumu who has mana problems. It's overall a safer option to buy. Chilling smite is better if you're committed to snowballing the game through ganks, but Mumu's ganks are mediocre until he gets his ult. His ult is also on a really long cd which gives him time to farm the jungle between ganks. If you want to snowball the game through ganking then you should probably pick a different jungler.
There's that, and like 95% of players on champion.gg and probuilds are building trailblazer. What Slayer was saying is that if you run Runeglaive Enchantment instead of Cinderhulk, you don't have Mana problems. Of course, Cinderhulk gives you more defensive stats, but Runeglaive has more damage with the Sheen proc, so take that into account.
I'm more referring to the general consensus on the item and using Mumu as an example. Regardless of the enchant, trailblazer is the most popular jungle item on the mummy by far and shouldn't be discounted for the reasons given.
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On August 27 2015 05:02 Requizen wrote:
So is the champion.gg site wonky? It lists Kayle, Warwick, and Diana in the top 6 junglers in the game. Maybe it's just one of those skewed stats because only people who are really good with those junglers play them?
Only ever trust win rate. Lots of sites have these weird "performance" ratings which is like a culmination of their CS and KDA and damage and etc etc etc. And all of that is dumb and useless. Win rate is what matters. It doesn't matter how they do it.
E.G. Champion.gg says that the top 6 junglers are
Skarner, Shyvanna, Xin Zhao, Kayle, Warwick, Diana
The actual top 6 junglers are Skarner, Xin Zhao, Amumu, Warick, Kayle, Rammus
Shyvanna is 16 in win rate. Diana is 8. Maybe droping low play %'s is fair, but even if you do that its a long ways to Shyvanna
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Man, boy did Olaf ever suck late Season 2. So glad Riot buffed him so he was a good pick.
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Olaf was decent to good late season 2, he didn't receive any changes to become a beast in season 3, it was all changes to other champs and items that made him into what ended up Olaf'd.
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On August 27 2015 06:52 Gahlo wrote:
Man, boy did Olaf ever suck late Season 2. So glad Riot buffed him so he was a good pick.
Huh?
User was warned for this post
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On August 27 2015 06:00 Alaric wrote:
If you want to counterjungle, it's often more about smart positioning and invading, and ability to 1v1 / shove out of his own jungle the enemy jungler.
If you move smartly you won't need the shorter smite to steal a camp (and you're rarely going to steal them all anyway), and if you're going to go fight the other guy and force him to recall before his laners collapse the red smite is more powerful.
Here's a terrible idea: What if using the white smite on a camp increased its respawn time by some flat amount of time? It's not a mechanic riot would ever implement, but it might make counter jungling feel more like it used to.
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Scip said that purple smite sucks so I never take it on anything, even Xin. I really like my red on him.
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On August 27 2015 07:44 Eiii wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 06:00 Alaric wrote:
If you want to counterjungle, it's often more about smart positioning and invading, and ability to 1v1 / shove out of his own jungle the enemy jungler.
If you move smartly you won't need the shorter smite to steal a camp (and you're rarely going to steal them all anyway), and if you're going to go fight the other guy and force him to recall before his laners collapse the red smite is more powerful. Here's a terrible idea: What if using the white smite on a camp increased its respawn time by some flat amount of time? It's not a mechanic riot would ever implement, but it might make counter jungling feel more like it used to.
I still think it's incredibly dumb to differentiate jungle sides as left/right. I don't like things like this that interact differently depending on which side of the river you're on.
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either you quoted the wrong person or you think I was saying something completely different than what I actually meant.
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Oh, I misinterpret what you meant too, but I thought it was a good idea.
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In general purple smite is a trap.
It ONLY helps you clear faster if your champion autos the small creeps after killing the big ones. If your AOE skills kill the small creeps while you're autoing the big ones it does not help you clear.
Even on champions who do auto small creeps, much of the time smiting Gromp will speed up your clear more than smiting another camp anyway, and Gromp doesn't have small creeps to AOE, so the increase in speed isn't as much as you might think it is.
Furthermore, if you're autoing small creeps, you're probably clearing really fucking slowly, which probably means you are not playing a competitive jungler. Everybody "can" jungle, but there's a clear speed bar that separates reasonable junglers from cheese picks, even in solo queue. The slower you're clearing the more there needs to be something in your champion kit that makes up for it, like when Sejuani was an unstoppable monster after early game, making up for her falling behind a little in her first 2-3 clears.
So basically what you're getting out of purple smite is the regen. And if you're getting it for regen, why not just buy a couple potions and get a more useful smite? 200g in potions over the course of the game is VERY worth if it gives you the combat smites from Stalkers or Skirmishers. You might feel like you don't "need" the Stalkers smite slow, but once you actually start playing with it you realize that it's super useful on everybody, it's just more necessary on some than others.
Basically, getting purple smite is kind of dumb, and if you feel like you NEED it, you should maybe think about playing a different champion in the first place.
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I don't think it's a trap. Having higher hp/mana when ganking is usually very good.
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That's why I buy potions ggwp
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The other reason why it's a trap is because pro players build it a lot, so you might look at what people do on probuilds and just do that.
But I think we've seen over the years that professional players make a lot of really questionable build decisions, and this is one of them. Junglers are usually the worst offenders for some reason too.
Over time pro junglers are very slowly starting to move to Stalkers/Skirmishers instead of Trailblazer, but it's taking a long time for them to pick something up that's really goddamn obvious. In the LPL finals they were only building it on Gragas, who got Bami's Cinder before even picking it up. In the EU LCS finals they only built it on Gragas and Nidalee. In NA they were still building it on everybody, although Gragas and Nidalee were 2/3rds of the jungle picks so maybe NA isn't too terrible.
Do Gragas and Nidalee auto small creeps?
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Something something Aegis/Locket.
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On August 27 2015 09:11 AlterKot wrote:
That's why I buy potions ggwp
you could spend a lot of money on those
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How much do you think the chilling smite is worth over the course of a game?
I think it's probably easily worth 2-300 gold.
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On August 27 2015 09:44 Slayer91 wrote:you could spend a lot of money on those
Is that money worth more than having a chilling/challenging smite? lets run the numbers ohwait
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Yes, it must be a trap, that's why people win more games on Vi, Jarvan, and Shyvanna win more solo queue games when they build Trailblazer over Stalkers.
http://champion.gg/champion/Shyvana
http://champion.gg/champion/Vi
http://champion.gg/champion/JarvanIV
Simply put, Stalkers is better on gank heavy junglers who want to snowball the game early. While Trailblazer is better on junglers who want to farm more. Especially when they need to farm until level 6. It's simply a safer item to buy than the Stalker's blade. It keeps you on the map for longer periods of time with sustain, adds emergency wave clear to your team, and can prevent minion damage during fights.
The only smite that's a 'trap' is the Poacher's blade.
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1400 game sample size vs 170, a 1% increase, a bunch of different build changes between those, only one point of comparison.
hmmmmmmmmmmm
Did you know Poacher's has a 100% winrate in LCS games I've watched where it gets built?
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What is that game?Hai lost with it vs tdk
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There is no way someone actually bought poachers in LCS....
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On August 27 2015 10:07 nafta wrote:
What is that game?Hai lost with it vs tdk
Ah shit, you're right. I forgot they threw that shit massively.
nvm guys, false alarm, poacher's sucks
On August 27 2015 10:07 cLutZ wrote:
There is no way someone actually bought poachers in LCS....
Yeah, Hai built it vs TDK. They actually got pretty significantly ahead iirc.
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Yeah sorry Sonnington but you're pretty wrong here.
Would be interested in seeing how you think trailblazer improves shyvanas clear.
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Vi is a mana whore when clearing and she'll at least Q when she ganks, which is her most costly ability. She definitely likes having Trailblazer, getting more mana regen, and saving at least an E per camp since she doesn't need to AoE down the small minions as much.
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I don't jungle much, but when I do I pick up Trailblazer on basically everything but Gragas (haven't played new Skarner, but I bet its wasted on him) because it makes you able to be much noobier and if you play the Amumu/Sej/etc types your real goal is basically to not die before 6 and exert the minimum necessary lane pressure for your team not to autolose and tilt.
I'm sure people who are good at jungling might prefer other options for hardcarrying out of the role, but trailblazer is the best option for surviving.
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Vi and Jarvan are two champions whom I wouldn't judge a Trailblazer pick so harshly, although come now Alaric, an E on every camp? You don't smite every camp.
But Vi and Jarvan are also sort of on the verge of not being competitive right now I feel. They're certainly not competitive competitive. They're probably solo queue competitive, but you have to wonder why you're not playing Reksai.
To be fair though Reksai is hard as fuck to play, I hate playing him. I like playing Vi.
Also to be fair Stalkers on Jarvan was one of the big reasons Stalkers got nerfed in the first place, if you recall. It's really good on Jarvan.
I'd bet Skirmishers is pretty good on Vi.
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purple smite is overpowered.
purple>blue>red>white
On August 27 2015 10:47 Ketara wrote:
Vi and Jarvan are two champions whom I wouldn't judge a Trailblazer pick so harshly, although come now Alaric, an E on every camp? You don't smite every camp.
But Vi and Jarvan are also sort of on the verge of not being competitive right now I feel. They're certainly not competitive competitive. They're probably solo queue competitive, but you have to wonder why you're not playing Reksai.
To be fair though Reksai is hard as fuck to play, I hate playing him. I like playing Vi.
Also to be fair Stalkers on Jarvan was one of the big reasons Stalkers got nerfed in the first place, if you recall. It's really good on Jarvan.
I'd bet Skirmishers is pretty good on Vi.
vi is still an A tier jungler in soloq
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On August 27 2015 10:12 Ketara wrote:
Yeah sorry Sonnington but you're pretty wrong here.
Would be interested in seeing how you think trailblazer improves shyvanas clear.
Which part am I wrong about? Or are you just troll posting?
I've only played Shyvanna once this season and it looks like I built Stalker's blade. I would assume Trailblazer works on her to reduce damage from monsters, helps her clear faster before she has points in her W, and sustain her HP.
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Shyvana W 100-0's small mobs at Rank 2 W. I guess if you're terribly concerned about your pre-3 clear, it's great.
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United States37500 Posts
Shyvana's jungle clear is at a rate where she doesn't nearly benefit with Ranger's as compared to other junglers. Not to mention she's manaless.
My main issue with her is that you farm up a storm and you'll have good items but it's sticking to targets that Flash/dash away. Which is why Stalker's is best on her imoimo.
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On August 27 2015 10:56 Frolossus wrote:purple smite is overpowered. purple>blue>red>white Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 10:47 Ketara wrote:
Vi and Jarvan are two champions whom I wouldn't judge a Trailblazer pick so harshly, although come now Alaric, an E on every camp? You don't smite every camp.
But Vi and Jarvan are also sort of on the verge of not being competitive right now I feel. They're certainly not competitive competitive. They're probably solo queue competitive, but you have to wonder why you're not playing Reksai.
To be fair though Reksai is hard as fuck to play, I hate playing him. I like playing Vi.
Also to be fair Stalkers on Jarvan was one of the big reasons Stalkers got nerfed in the first place, if you recall. It's really good on Jarvan.
I'd bet Skirmishers is pretty good on Vi. vi is still an A tier jungler in soloq
Maybe if there's an S and A+ tier. I'd rather play a champion that can take a harder beating if I'm going in hard or just straight up kill a target regardless.
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On August 27 2015 11:29 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 10:56 Frolossus wrote:purple smite is overpowered. purple>blue>red>white On August 27 2015 10:47 Ketara wrote:
Vi and Jarvan are two champions whom I wouldn't judge a Trailblazer pick so harshly, although come now Alaric, an E on every camp? You don't smite every camp.
But Vi and Jarvan are also sort of on the verge of not being competitive right now I feel. They're certainly not competitive competitive. They're probably solo queue competitive, but you have to wonder why you're not playing Reksai.
To be fair though Reksai is hard as fuck to play, I hate playing him. I like playing Vi.
Also to be fair Stalkers on Jarvan was one of the big reasons Stalkers got nerfed in the first place, if you recall. It's really good on Jarvan.
I'd bet Skirmishers is pretty good on Vi. vi is still an A tier jungler in soloq Maybe if there's an S and A+ tier. I'd rather play a champion that can take a harder beating if I'm going in hard or just straight up kill a target regardless.
that's the point, you don't pick vi to tank you pick her to hard carry with ~4.5 damage items
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On August 27 2015 11:30 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 11:29 Gahlo wrote:On August 27 2015 10:56 Frolossus wrote:purple smite is overpowered. purple>blue>red>white On August 27 2015 10:47 Ketara wrote:
Vi and Jarvan are two champions whom I wouldn't judge a Trailblazer pick so harshly, although come now Alaric, an E on every camp? You don't smite every camp.
But Vi and Jarvan are also sort of on the verge of not being competitive right now I feel. They're certainly not competitive competitive. They're probably solo queue competitive, but you have to wonder why you're not playing Reksai.
To be fair though Reksai is hard as fuck to play, I hate playing him. I like playing Vi.
Also to be fair Stalkers on Jarvan was one of the big reasons Stalkers got nerfed in the first place, if you recall. It's really good on Jarvan.
I'd bet Skirmishers is pretty good on Vi. vi is still an A tier jungler in soloq Maybe if there's an S and A+ tier. I'd rather play a champion that can take a harder beating if I'm going in hard or just straight up kill a target regardless. that's the point, you don't pick vi to tank you pick her to hard carry with ~4.5 damage items
Which brings up again, why am I picking Vi? you can do that with much less on a lot of other champions.
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On August 27 2015 11:31 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 11:30 Frolossus wrote:On August 27 2015 11:29 Gahlo wrote:On August 27 2015 10:56 Frolossus wrote:purple smite is overpowered. purple>blue>red>white On August 27 2015 10:47 Ketara wrote:
Vi and Jarvan are two champions whom I wouldn't judge a Trailblazer pick so harshly, although come now Alaric, an E on every camp? You don't smite every camp.
But Vi and Jarvan are also sort of on the verge of not being competitive right now I feel. They're certainly not competitive competitive. They're probably solo queue competitive, but you have to wonder why you're not playing Reksai.
To be fair though Reksai is hard as fuck to play, I hate playing him. I like playing Vi.
Also to be fair Stalkers on Jarvan was one of the big reasons Stalkers got nerfed in the first place, if you recall. It's really good on Jarvan.
I'd bet Skirmishers is pretty good on Vi. vi is still an A tier jungler in soloq Maybe if there's an S and A+ tier. I'd rather play a champion that can take a harder beating if I'm going in hard or just straight up kill a target regardless. that's the point, you don't pick vi to tank you pick her to hard carry with ~4.5 damage items Which brings up again, why am I picking Vi? you can do that with much less on a lot of other champions.
cause vi does more damage than other things and has amazing ganks?
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Assassin Vi is probably more legit than ever with Sterak's making Tforce better and dives not always instantly suicidal. Point-and-click single target threat elimination, even if you don't kill them, has its utility.
It's just that, well... Rek'sai does like, at least three other things better.
With Shyv, I'm thinking of just building for teamfights, lately. Skip BotRK for Titanic, get Mallet immediately after. 1100 health and a lot of cleave, some extra AD. You duel worse though, and Titanic/Sated is much less insta-kill than BotRK/Sated. I suppose it's a question of role and how much damage you need compared to the tankiness.
Titanic/Sated has style points though, for sure.
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Vi is in a good place competitively. She is a niche jungler that is probably the best in her niche but not so good that it crowds out champions from generalist roles (Rek Sai).
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On August 27 2015 11:21 Caiada wrote:
Shyvana W 100-0's small mobs at Rank 2 W. I guess if you're terribly concerned about your pre-3 clear, it's great.
You mean the pre 3 clear where you don't have trailblazer yet?
Like I said I wouldn't judge a trailblazer Vi or Jarvan too harshly, although I would question it. Scip might laugh at you though.
Trailblazer on Shyvana is somewhat lulzworthy though.
In general I've gained a lot of elo jungling just doing exactly what Scip says. He's a pretty smart guy. He just only knows how to PvE  .
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Guys lets make jungle tier lists to settle this discussion once and for all 
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On August 27 2015 13:15 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 11:21 Caiada wrote:
Shyvana W 100-0's small mobs at Rank 2 W. I guess if you're terribly concerned about your pre-3 clear, it's great. You mean the pre 3 clear where you don't have trailblazer yet? Like I said I wouldn't judge a trailblazer Vi or Jarvan too harshly, although I would question it. Scip might laugh at you though. Trailblazer on Shyvana is somewhat lulzworthy though. In general I've gained a lot of elo jungling just doing exactly what Scip says. He's a pretty smart guy. He just only knows how to PvE .
That was the joke :V
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Yes I know. Stay positive <3
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On August 27 2015 10:47 Ketara wrote:
Vi and Jarvan are two champions whom I wouldn't judge a Trailblazer pick so harshly, although come now Alaric, an E on every camp? You don't smite every camp.
But Vi and Jarvan are also sort of on the verge of not being competitive right now I feel. They're certainly not competitive competitive. They're probably solo queue competitive, but you have to wonder why you're not playing Reksai.
To be fair though Reksai is hard as fuck to play, I hate playing him. I like playing Vi.
Also to be fair Stalkers on Jarvan was one of the big reasons Stalkers got nerfed in the first place, if you recall. It's really good on Jarvan.
I'd bet Skirmishers is pretty good on Vi.
I meant to say "per camp you smite", yeah.
Skirmisher's good on her if you move and pressure in such a way that you make skirmishes happen over 5v5 fights, or if you goal in those is to duel the other guy.
If you're just going to initiate and lock a squishy down for your team to delete, it's not as important though.
Oh, and since you prefer female champions, I feel compelled to inform you that Rek'Sai is a "she".
Vi's level 1 ult cd is brutal though.
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Perspective of someone coming back who's still bad at the game:
Played a bunch of different junglers last night. Hec didn't really work, Rammus did alright but couldn't solo carry bads, Diana was great except I think I need to go defensive runes/masteries because I kept blowing up as soon as team fights started, even with Zhonya's.
You know who carried like a champ? Volibear. Like, dang. I know who my new main is.
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But what will the Otter think of him?
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3 questions
1) How does tower kill gold distribution work? Do you need to be near the tower? Does it differ between outer/inner/base towers?
2) Does GP ult cross map give experience to things he kills if he's not in experience range?
3) Does Fiora need vision to do damage from Q? i.e. she Q's right next to a bush someone is standing in but she doesn't have vision in it, does it do damage?
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On August 27 2015 23:05 Alaric wrote:
But what will the Otter think of him?
Volibear:
"What are you doing?"
"I'm a bear."
"Why did you throw that guy?"
"Sometimes you just gotta be a bear and throw people."
"Go slap that guy in the face!"
"You got it sweetie"
Vlad:
"These blood puns are terrible, I hate this guy"
Rammus:
"Do you think this guy's voice actor was just like some janitor they dragged in to say 4 words?"
"Maybe?"
"LOOK AT HIS LITTLE WADDLING WALK I LOVE IT"
Hecarim:
"You said he was a pony this is not a pony"
She went to bed before Diana games
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She didn't like Hecarim because you don't have Arcade Hecarim.
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It's gonna be hard to show her LCS while Phreak is casting if she's struggling with Vlad.
Also you should try jungling Singed. Sure it's less effective than Volibear but he's the better flipper by far.
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On August 27 2015 23:18 Alaric wrote:
It's gonna be hard to show her LCS while Phreak is casting if she's struggling with Vlad.
Also you should try jungling Singed. Sure it's less effective than Volibear but he's the better flipper by far.
Next time I play top I'll Singed. She's less amused by laning because running in circles isn't as exciting as exploring the jungle and ganking people.
For that matter, I enjoy jungling for the same reasons.
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On August 27 2015 23:18 Ketara wrote:
She didn't like Hecarim because you don't have Arcade Hecarim.
She did look at the skin and said it was the best one, but I don't want to buy RP right now.
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You should jungle Sejuani anyway, she's the real jungler.
Alternatively, Zac. Bitches love Zac.
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On August 27 2015 23:19 Ketara wrote:
You should jungle Sejuani anyway, she's the real jungler.
Alternatively, Zac. Bitches love Zac.
Tried that
"Who are you"
"I'm Zac! I'm made of goo"
"These sound effects are disgusting why are you doing this"
"Well, it's fun!"
"JUMP ON THAT PERSON'S FACE"
It went ok.
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I think we need a thread of Otters champion reactions.
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On August 27 2015 23:19 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 23:18 Alaric wrote:
It's gonna be hard to show her LCS while Phreak is casting if she's struggling with Vlad.
Also you should try jungling Singed. Sure it's less effective than Volibear but he's the better flipper by far. For that matter, I enjoy jungling for the same reasons.
All I read is that you're a pussy laner.
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On August 27 2015 23:22 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 23:19 Requizen wrote:On August 27 2015 23:18 Alaric wrote:
It's gonna be hard to show her LCS while Phreak is casting if she's struggling with Vlad.
Also you should try jungling Singed. Sure it's less effective than Volibear but he's the better flipper by far. For that matter, I enjoy jungling for the same reasons. All I read is that you're a pussy laner.
I really am. I'm crap at playing squishy champions so I end up playing tanky things and just running around slap fighting people until mid/late. Also leads to me being bad at carrying from lane :\
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Somebody playing on NA show him how to turn even Maokai or Malphite into a trainfreight of pain from level 3.
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I tried playing Heca jungle once. Squishy as shit. Team got all mad my ganks ended up feeding the enemy laners.
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On August 28 2015 00:05 Osmoses wrote:
I tried playing Heca jungle once. Squishy as shit. Team got all mad my ganks ended up feeding the enemy laners.
Yeah totes. He's one of those characters who is really sick good when he gets huge but is pretty underwhelming otherwise in my experience. Probably could get better at him and get better results... but eh. Bear.
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On August 27 2015 23:28 Alaric wrote:
Somebody playing on NA show him how to turn even Maokai or Malphite into a trainfreight of pain from level 3.
I know just the perfect CN top lane sub for this...
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On August 27 2015 23:03 Requizen wrote:
Perspective of someone coming back who's still bad at the game:
Played a bunch of different junglers last night. Hec didn't really work, Rammus did alright but couldn't solo carry bads, Diana was great except I think I need to go defensive runes/masteries because I kept blowing up as soon as team fights started, even with Zhonya's.
You know who carried like a champ? Volibear. Like, dang. I know who my new main is.
what problems did you have on hecarim?
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On August 28 2015 00:20 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 23:03 Requizen wrote:
Perspective of someone coming back who's still bad at the game:
Played a bunch of different junglers last night. Hec didn't really work, Rammus did alright but couldn't solo carry bads, Diana was great except I think I need to go defensive runes/masteries because I kept blowing up as soon as team fights started, even with Zhonya's.
You know who carried like a champ? Volibear. Like, dang. I know who my new main is. what problems did you have on hecarim?
Just general dying too easily. Even with W up in fights I would explode.
Then again, maybe it was how I set up. Went Offensive Masteries and Chilling Smite/Runeglaive instead of Trailblazer/Cinder. Though, in the past, I often felt that if you went too tanky early on you had no effect on the game other than your (admittedly mediocre) ult.
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On August 28 2015 00:28 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 00:20 Frolossus wrote:On August 27 2015 23:03 Requizen wrote:
Perspective of someone coming back who's still bad at the game:
Played a bunch of different junglers last night. Hec didn't really work, Rammus did alright but couldn't solo carry bads, Diana was great except I think I need to go defensive runes/masteries because I kept blowing up as soon as team fights started, even with Zhonya's.
You know who carried like a champ? Volibear. Like, dang. I know who my new main is. what problems did you have on hecarim? Just general dying too easily. Even with W up in fights I would explode. Then again, maybe it was how I set up. Went Offensive Masteries and Chilling Smite/Runeglaive instead of Trailblazer/Cinder. Though, in the past, I often felt that if you went too tanky early on you had no effect on the game other than your (admittedly mediocre) ult.
you could go giants belt immediately after warrior if you're really struggling but you should be fine just rushing triforce.
spend your time farming and play cleanup crew. try to enter fights with ghost + e and use ult to follow up after someone flashes.
if you come in late you don't take as much damage.
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On August 28 2015 00:35 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 00:28 Requizen wrote:On August 28 2015 00:20 Frolossus wrote:On August 27 2015 23:03 Requizen wrote:
Perspective of someone coming back who's still bad at the game:
Played a bunch of different junglers last night. Hec didn't really work, Rammus did alright but couldn't solo carry bads, Diana was great except I think I need to go defensive runes/masteries because I kept blowing up as soon as team fights started, even with Zhonya's.
You know who carried like a champ? Volibear. Like, dang. I know who my new main is. what problems did you have on hecarim? Just general dying too easily. Even with W up in fights I would explode. Then again, maybe it was how I set up. Went Offensive Masteries and Chilling Smite/Runeglaive instead of Trailblazer/Cinder. Though, in the past, I often felt that if you went too tanky early on you had no effect on the game other than your (admittedly mediocre) ult. you could go giants belt immediately after warrior if you're really struggling but you should be fine just rushing triforce. spend your time farming and play cleanup crew. try to enter fights with ghost + e and use ult to follow up after someone flashes. if you come in late you don't take as much damage.
Why Warrior? I understand better AD scaling and CDR is great on him, but if I want damage don't you think Runeglaive is better with the Q spamming?
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On August 28 2015 00:37 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 00:35 Frolossus wrote:On August 28 2015 00:28 Requizen wrote:On August 28 2015 00:20 Frolossus wrote:On August 27 2015 23:03 Requizen wrote:
Perspective of someone coming back who's still bad at the game:
Played a bunch of different junglers last night. Hec didn't really work, Rammus did alright but couldn't solo carry bads, Diana was great except I think I need to go defensive runes/masteries because I kept blowing up as soon as team fights started, even with Zhonya's.
You know who carried like a champ? Volibear. Like, dang. I know who my new main is. what problems did you have on hecarim? Just general dying too easily. Even with W up in fights I would explode. Then again, maybe it was how I set up. Went Offensive Masteries and Chilling Smite/Runeglaive instead of Trailblazer/Cinder. Though, in the past, I often felt that if you went too tanky early on you had no effect on the game other than your (admittedly mediocre) ult. you could go giants belt immediately after warrior if you're really struggling but you should be fine just rushing triforce. spend your time farming and play cleanup crew. try to enter fights with ghost + e and use ult to follow up after someone flashes. if you come in late you don't take as much damage. Why Warrior? I understand better AD scaling and CDR is great on him, but if I want damage don't you think Runeglaive is better with the Q spamming?
you want it for cdr and armor pen. also if you intend to build triforce which is probably his best damage item you can't get runeglaive
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Plus you tend to run ArPen runes (iirc ArPen+MS quints is the basic set of runes for jungle Hecarim), so with Warrior on top if makes your spellblade effects from Sheen/Triforce hurt, while Runeglaive is magical damage so it's not nearly as much.
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The old Heca top used to go cinderhulk into triforce. Is that not viable in the jungle?
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On August 27 2015 23:07 Complete wrote:
3 questions
1) How does tower kill gold distribution work? Do you need to be near the tower? Does it differ between outer/inner/base towers?
2) Does GP ult cross map give experience to things he kills if he's not in experience range?
3) Does Fiora need vision to do damage from Q? i.e. she Q's right next to a bush someone is standing in but she doesn't have vision in it, does it do damage?
1) there is a base amount: 100 gold/person that you get always. There is a bonus amount 250 gold that is split between all members in range of the tower when it falls. If you watch LCS when they fast push they will retreat the other members to give the one person they want to have an advantage solo gold.
2) I believe so, yes. As it is with any ability. If you like nid spear then flash away and the nid spear hits way out of xp range you still get the xp.
3) not a clue but I suspect yes. There are very few collision skill shot or dashes that do not do damage to things you can't see. I can only think of non-targeted abilities that work like that
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was there an ninja buff to Darius in his hotfix buff? I think the handle is healing now becasue I lost a level 2 allin due to the heal taking me by surprise, but it's possible I fucked up
anyone else notice this?
tested, I fucked up, no heal, although the bleed damage like goes up like 66% from the bloodrage ad trying to test if it auto updates, but it's hard with the way dot damage shows up on the screen now, any ideas?
I think it is?
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On August 28 2015 04:20 Slusher wrote:
was there an ninja buff to Darius in his hotfix buff? I think the handle is healing now becasue I lost a level 2 allin due to the heal taking me by surprise, but it's possible I fucked up
anyone else notice this?
Unless they fucked up, which is very likely, it should only be the blade healing. Bit of custom game testing just now only had the blade healing, at least. Could be wonky hitbox.
The Q buff made him pretty legit now. Positive winrate everywhere.
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ye I'm in a custom as well I def fucked up
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What's people thoughts on Warmog's on assassins that can get enough HP for it late game? I know it sounds super odd, but I've been having some moderate succes on Kassadin with it, it was completely trash on a RoA Leblanc build I tried for giggles. I suppose it could work on assassins with good consistant damage (Kassadin's new AP ratio on ult is bonkers when you can do it in face multiple times), the basic idea was to kill a high priority target and then bail out to heal up rather than relying on Hourglass to be off CD/or getting it off before being locked down.
It'll probably be much smarter on assassins that use GA/BV as a defensive tool instead of Hourglass or against a heavy poke team.
Probably a stupid question, but I rarely play assassins even tho I enjoy them so I'd love to hear what you guys who actually know how to play them think.
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Doesn't seem good for consistent damage assassins (like Kassadin) because you won't ever be out of the fight long enough to make use of it. Similarly it seems weak for clean up because your risky actions are in the start of the fight not the end of the fight and Warmogs is a lot weaker in the start of a fight.
Against heavy poke it can work. Because the regen really is insane. But its probably a lot better on a heavy poke champion that can get the HP rather than an assassin.
Because then a heavy poke champion can walk forward. Use their poke and not worry about getting hit as much. Then just retreat back a bit behind the line and good as new if they do.
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Against mixed phys/magic damage I can see the benefit but Banshee seems like a far superior option if the enemy is magic heavy.
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If it's absolutely any case where you're massively concerned about poke, Warmog's is pretty much the best item in the game if you meet the health threshold. I don't think that's a big niche right now though and outside of it, it's hit or miss.
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So, any dedicated Rek'Sai players here?
I decided to start playing void queen again and since I'm obssessed with sated of course I got it on her + all the new items. I've had one game where my early game was fine regardless, but in later two I was pretty much irrelevant until getting sated + titanic + dead man's, but her late game is pretty insane. I generally farm a lot and I used to play warrior's into full tank, I might try doing that as well. Generally speaking I just want to experiment with Rek'Sai but I also don't want to get demoted to plat again in proccess so I'm wondering if anyone got experience or ideas I can use.
I plan on creating a Rek'Sai thread at some point if that helps.
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I feel like QSS is really underbought on bruisers. Darius thinks he can 1v2? QSS at 4 stacks and watch him dunk for 200 dmg. Fizz trying to godmode? Eat that fish. TF Stun+Q+Kite ad infinitum? Naw lube up son it's gonna be a LONG 6 seconds bro.
Everyone has a plan until you cleanse their only cc and punch them in the face with your bear hands.
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On August 29 2015 18:36 Slayer91 wrote:
I feel like QSS is really underbought on bruisers. Darius thinks he can 1v2? QSS at 4 stacks and watch him dunk for 200 dmg. Fizz trying to godmode? Eat that fish. TF Stun+Q+Kite ad infinitum? Naw lube up son it's gonna be a LONG 6 seconds bro.
Everyone has a plan until you cleanse their only cc and punch them in the face with your bear hands.
I guess it's a tempo thing. It doesn't add anything other than a little MR and the active, so it has to be really worth the active to be worthwhile. And most solo queue players just mindlessly follow the same build every time.
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On August 30 2015 00:44 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 18:36 Slayer91 wrote:
I feel like QSS is really underbought on bruisers. Darius thinks he can 1v2? QSS at 4 stacks and watch him dunk for 200 dmg. Fizz trying to godmode? Eat that fish. TF Stun+Q+Kite ad infinitum? Naw lube up son it's gonna be a LONG 6 seconds bro.
Everyone has a plan until you cleanse their only cc and punch them in the face with your bear hands. I guess it's a tempo thing. It doesn't add anything other than a little MR and the active, so it has to be really worth the active to be worthwhile. And most solo queue players just mindlessly follow the same build every time.
Not to mention that since the DoT got changed to physical it doesn't even help reduce the damage you take until you pop it anyway.
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And in a ton of cases, those 650g worth of stats you're trading or getting closer to your next item are a lot more important. I actually think it's kind of overbought on guys who aren't Vayne/Fiora and other champions who operate on razor-thin margins.
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On August 30 2015 01:09 Caiada wrote:
And in a ton of cases, those 650g worth of stats you're trading or getting closer to your next item are a lot more important. I actually think it's kind of overbought on guys who aren't Vayne/Fiora and other champions who operate on razor-thin margins.
You go from never being able to kill TF from being able to dick all over him whenever you see him
What other item allows you to do this for 650 gold
It allows you to frontline without worried about fizz ult and getting one shot.
It allowed to to frontline without darius getting a reset on you and snowballing from the 5 stack thing.
It allows you to completely negate shit like malz ult and skarner ult which his whole champ is based around.
I mean that can save it for a backliner but then thats pressure on them to make a catch, before if you build damage and they don't they can just focus you and you'll die faster than their tank so they win the teamfight so you have to play defensive.
I'm not saying it's always a good buy but so many champs rely completely on a single cc spell to deal with you, if that's taken away you're suddenly 2x the threat because they need another champ with skills ready to deal with you and this is without committing to even using QSS yet.
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On August 29 2015 08:56 AlterKot wrote:
So, any dedicated Rek'Sai players here?
I decided to start playing void queen again and since I'm obssessed with sated of course I got it on her + all the new items. I've had one game where my early game was fine regardless, but in later two I was pretty much irrelevant until getting sated + titanic + dead man's, but her late game is pretty insane. I generally farm a lot and I used to play warrior's into full tank, I might try doing that as well. Generally speaking I just want to experiment with Rek'Sai but I also don't want to get demoted to plat again in proccess so I'm wondering if anyone got experience or ideas I can use.
I plan on creating a Rek'Sai thread at some point if that helps.
not much of a reksai player but maybe you ganked too much early and didn't get stated before or at 20 minutes?
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Do some math to figure out whats the best or take the hit to your lp it doesnt matter anyway,
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On August 30 2015 01:41 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 08:56 AlterKot wrote:
So, any dedicated Rek'Sai players here?
I decided to start playing void queen again and since I'm obssessed with sated of course I got it on her + all the new items. I've had one game where my early game was fine regardless, but in later two I was pretty much irrelevant until getting sated + titanic + dead man's, but her late game is pretty insane. I generally farm a lot and I used to play warrior's into full tank, I might try doing that as well. Generally speaking I just want to experiment with Rek'Sai but I also don't want to get demoted to plat again in proccess so I'm wondering if anyone got experience or ideas I can use.
I plan on creating a Rek'Sai thread at some point if that helps. not much of a reksai player but maybe you ganked too much early and didn't get stated before or at 20 minutes?
Imo, if you haven't had an impact on the game as Rek'Sai by 20 minutes you might as well have picked a different champion. Imo it's either Warrior or Cinderhulk depending on how you're doing. If it's iffy you pick up Ruby/Longsword and use whichever doesn't go into the jungle item as part of BC's Phage.
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On August 30 2015 02:03 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2015 01:41 Frolossus wrote:On August 29 2015 08:56 AlterKot wrote:
So, any dedicated Rek'Sai players here?
I decided to start playing void queen again and since I'm obssessed with sated of course I got it on her + all the new items. I've had one game where my early game was fine regardless, but in later two I was pretty much irrelevant until getting sated + titanic + dead man's, but her late game is pretty insane. I generally farm a lot and I used to play warrior's into full tank, I might try doing that as well. Generally speaking I just want to experiment with Rek'Sai but I also don't want to get demoted to plat again in proccess so I'm wondering if anyone got experience or ideas I can use.
I plan on creating a Rek'Sai thread at some point if that helps. not much of a reksai player but maybe you ganked too much early and didn't get stated before or at 20 minutes? Imo, if you haven't had an impact on the game as Rek'Sai by 20 minutes you might as well have picked a different champion. Imo it's either Warrior or Cinderhulk depending on how you're doing. If it's iffy you pick up Ruby/Longsword and use whichever doesn't go into the jungle item as part of BC's Phage.
you can have an impact while still being sated at 20 minutes. it just means you don't want to sit in a bush waiting for a gank to happen. your ganks should be reactive not proactive. know where the enemy jungler is and be doing the camps around where he's gonna gank then be there to stop it and pick up kills. or gank after the enemy already used summs. but your time should be farming and moving around the map looking for these opportunities.
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On August 30 2015 01:40 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2015 01:09 Caiada wrote:
And in a ton of cases, those 650g worth of stats you're trading or getting closer to your next item are a lot more important. I actually think it's kind of overbought on guys who aren't Vayne/Fiora and other champions who operate on razor-thin margins. You go from never being able to kill TF from being able to dick all over him whenever you see him What other item allows you to do this for 650 gold It allows you to frontline without worried about fizz ult and getting one shot. It allowed to to frontline without darius getting a reset on you and snowballing from the 5 stack thing. It allows you to completely negate shit like malz ult and skarner ult which his whole champ is based around. I mean that can save it for a backliner but then thats pressure on them to make a catch, before if you build damage and they don't they can just focus you and you'll die faster than their tank so they win the teamfight so you have to play defensive. I'm not saying it's always a good buy but so many champs rely completely on a single cc spell to deal with you, if that's taken away you're suddenly 2x the threat because they need another champ with skills ready to deal with you and this is without committing to even using QSS yet.
the people that want to do things like this already take cleanse tho, which is a much better substitute then buying an item that can only be upgraded into 1 very shit item unless you are fiora or an adc.
if they didnt buff teleport to the pont of absurdity then I could see this strat being used more often, people did used to take stuff like cleanse/flash and ghost/cleanse on bruisers before
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On August 30 2015 09:40 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2015 01:40 Slayer91 wrote:On August 30 2015 01:09 Caiada wrote:
And in a ton of cases, those 650g worth of stats you're trading or getting closer to your next item are a lot more important. I actually think it's kind of overbought on guys who aren't Vayne/Fiora and other champions who operate on razor-thin margins. You go from never being able to kill TF from being able to dick all over him whenever you see him What other item allows you to do this for 650 gold It allows you to frontline without worried about fizz ult and getting one shot. It allowed to to frontline without darius getting a reset on you and snowballing from the 5 stack thing. It allows you to completely negate shit like malz ult and skarner ult which his whole champ is based around. I mean that can save it for a backliner but then thats pressure on them to make a catch, before if you build damage and they don't they can just focus you and you'll die faster than their tank so they win the teamfight so you have to play defensive. I'm not saying it's always a good buy but so many champs rely completely on a single cc spell to deal with you, if that's taken away you're suddenly 2x the threat because they need another champ with skills ready to deal with you and this is without committing to even using QSS yet. the people that want to do things like this already take cleanse tho, which is a much better substitute then buying an item that can only be upgraded into 1 very shit item unless you are fiora or an adc. if they didnt buff teleport to the pont of absurdity then I could see this strat being used more often, people did used to take stuff like cleanse/flash and ghost/cleanse on bruisers before
I specifically said on bruisers
xin udyr etcetc
flash/tp/smite are all worth more than the cost of qss too. It's not like a midlaner who wants to go full damage and doesn't want to get rekt by skarner 6 or rammus or something, so he wants cleanse the whole game, you can build it situationally on any strong diving bruiser and I argue its underbought.
Yeah you're stuck if you're getting full items but how many games do you reach full items? Can always sell it at that point you're already full items you dont care about the gold waste lol.
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QSS has a much shorter CD than cleanse though, the lower CD/higher availability makes it really worth. You derp, end up trading your cleanse for their ults-- they'll have ults up in about a minute, but you'll have no cleans for another 3 minutes.
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I heard there was a hotfix patch that broke Darius Q to make it do the animation twice and heal twice.
What other patch notes are in the hotfix? Skarner nerfs?
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On August 30 2015 14:03 obesechicken13 wrote:
I heard there was a hotfix patch that broke Darius Q to make it do the animation twice and heal twice.
What other patch notes are in the hotfix? Skarner nerfs?
Probably something like that happened, because as a top laner I faced quite a few dariuses & garens the last several days and darius was a piece of cake to beat in the beginning and then suddenly I started to lose trades/lanes, so I thought people learned how to deal with him, but most likely he was boosted
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On August 31 2015 18:12 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2015 14:03 obesechicken13 wrote:
I heard there was a hotfix patch that broke Darius Q to make it do the animation twice and heal twice.
What other patch notes are in the hotfix? Skarner nerfs? Probably something like that happened, because as a top laner I faced quite a few dariuses & garens the last several days and darius was a piece of cake to beat in the beginning and then suddenly I started to lose trades/lanes, so I thought people learned how to deal with him, but most likely he was boosted
Sure it isn't "just" the 10->15% heal? It's effectively a 50% buff after all.
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His Q base is also back to old levels with the hotfix, which was the biggest thing keeping him from being able to trade well.
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The survivability and ability to turn ganks around when you hit a double blade-Q though, people get baited then you have a massive heal which buys you some pots ticks, then you fall back a bit and wait for the cooldown while your jungle fights, hit another one to stay around 30-40% health and now you can cast E and take the fight.
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Couple questions:
#1 - How does activating Zekes work? Is it only damage from the support (person with the item) that turns it on? Does damaging minions turn it on?
#2 - Is Ardent Censer any good since it got buffed? Are people using it at all now?
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Ardent is pretty much only seen with Kog and only after Zeke's. I think it's still good, but between Zeke's and other support buys (and not many popular supports use it well), it's not seen often.
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Basically I'm wondering if it's any good on support Lux since it's been buffed.
She can make really good use of it with all the shields, but before the buff it wasn't strong enough to take anyway. Is it strong enough to make it a reasonable pick now?
And splain how Zekes works plx.
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Zekes gives you AP,armour and CDR then makes your ADC a god. It's the most broken "support" item in the game atm.
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This is from the wiki but it falls in line with my experience using the item so I thought I might as well just quote it.
Unique: When within 1000-units of each other, you and your Conduit will generate 1 charge every second, up to 100, with a bonus 4/2 charges whenever you or your ally attack, and 8/4 on spell cast.
At 100 charge, dealing damage grants you and your Conduit 20% increased Ability Power and +50% Critical Strike Chance for 8 seconds.
All current charge is lost if you move further than 1000-units apart or hold onto 100 charge for longer than X seconds.
I have no idea what value "X" is though.
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Ardent is probably a good second choice on Lux. AoE buffing is pretty good. Seems obvious, tbh.
I have no idea how Zeke's actually works >.> Tooltip implies it procs on any damage, but the wording for whether it's support or ADC is super vague.
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I'm pretty sure it's both.
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Have you guys never actually built it in a game...?
If you don't know the answer to my question you probably shouldn't reply to it lol
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Look, if you take it that way people can just answer you "you can't play atm so why would we bother, you'll test it yourself once you're back". So no need to be an ass.
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That doesn't make any sense Alaric.
If I could test it myself I wouldn't need to ask the question in the first place.
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Alright, I actually tested it. I figured I'd just answer the Ardent question since I actually knew that one, but was pretty curious about Zeke's.
Zeke's procs on both minion damage and champ damage from either the builder or the conduit target.
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But you won't be able to play for a few months so it's not like you'll be able to use the kowledge, making the question useless. Point in case: just don't be an ass when you're asking people for help.
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TY Caiada.
Hmm.
I wonder how people are using it in pro games if it activates when the conduit target does damage.
Does it charge fast enough that it doesn't make any difference? Or does the ADC have to not poke/waveclear till they want to engage?
Seems like for the same reason it'd be a lot better on supports that don't really poke like braum and Janna.
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Also does damaging towers activate it?
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On September 01 2015 23:12 Ketara wrote:
TY Caiada.
Hmm.
I wonder how people are using it in pro games if it activates when the conduit target does damage.
Does it charge fast enough that it doesn't make any difference? Or does the ADC have to not poke/waveclear till they want to engage?
Seems like for the same reason it'd be a lot better on supports that don't really poke like braum and Janna.
It's an interesting situation. The charge is much slower after 5.15 but it was a lot quicker on 5.14 where people are picking it heavily. They instead made it last 2 seconds longer. I think the idea is it is up in enough fights long enough to be worth it.
After the new charge time, I get the feeling it's too inconsistent, but we haven't seen any games after 5.15, so, not sure. It's probably still worth the gold value because the base stats are efficient and crit is... crit.
Oh and the X seconds is just the duration of the stacks. Didn't actually time it because bots don't cooperate, but it looked like ~8 seconds.
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It's not necessarily like Luden's where you'd rather trigger it on your first cast so the next ones will build toward a second activation during the fight's window: Zeke's last 8 seconds, which is plenty, and if it only triggers 2-3 seconds into the fight, considering what with initiation, cc and stuff you're unlikely to stand still autoing during that time you haven't lost much.
It's a bit like Gnar's passive: "Guys we're at 70 charges, 10 seconds and 2 spell casts and Zeke's goes off, now's a good time to start looking for an initiation".
You can't calculate as much when you're getting engaged on, but it's not that easy for your opponent to keep track of your stacks either, and a champion like Braum will generate 25+ stacks within 3 seconds if he blows RWE as you get initiated upon, so unless this happens right after the buff wears off it's very easy to trigger Zeke's passive while the fight is still going on.
(Same as Ryze's passive, it's better to let the charges drop than trigger it if the situation's bad anyway, because you can start stacking back up quicker than by having the 8s effect to wait.
If your opponent attacks while you're at 100 charges, you'll have the steroid for the fight. If you trigger it, they wait 5-6 seconds then go in, and you're unlikely to get it back before the end of the fight. If you drop to 0 and they try to attack, you're already closer to getting it.)
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It definitely seems to me like the more often the support is dealing damage in a siege, the more unwieldy it is to time the charges well.
I'll have to rewatch some of the regional final games and see how they're using it.
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Oh and as far as I can see, it doesn't proc on tower damage.
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On September 01 2015 23:18 Ketara wrote:
Also does damaging towers activate it?
Yes (I believe)
And it does tend to take awhile to charge it up, maybe ~20-30 seconds as a very rough estimate. You can get to the lower end if you spam a few spells and get to auto off minions or camps, but otherwise it's effectively a moderate cooldown. The Gnar ult is a pretty good comparison.
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On September 01 2015 23:29 Ketara wrote:
It definitely seems to me like the more often the support is dealing damage in a siege, the more unwieldy it is to time the charges well.
I'll have to rewatch some of the regional final games and see how they're using it.
Timing charges d doesn't mean much. The thing charges so fast and fight tend to last long enough in scrappy games that you'll always get it charged unless they time it perfectly to go on you as your first charge wears off.
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So...
In LCK finals nobody built it, but the games were all really short.
In LPL it's built for:
Braum + Vayne
In EU LCS it's built for:
Janna + Tristana twice
In NA LCS it's built for:
Braum + Tristana
Janna + Jinx
There's lots of games where supports build the glacial shroud, but they don't upgrade it even at 35-40 mins. The only game where a support rushes it is the LPL Braum + Vayne game, which makes sense to me, that'd be a really easy duo to manipulate when it goes off.
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On September 01 2015 22:53 Ketara wrote:
Have you guys never actually built it in a game...?
If you don't know the answer to my question you probably shouldn't reply to it lol
I said "pretty sure" because of that thing that happens where you're convinced that it works one way but not so convinced so that when other people are absolutely clueless you think "well I guess there's a chance I could be wrong".
That kind of answer has been acceptable to give in the past. I also wasn't thinking about you being in some nowhere portion of Thailand and not being able to test anything yourself. I'm not a mind reader here.
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Azir works with Sated Devourer, joy of joys. Oh and more nerfs, great.
Quarter-second delay on barrels likely lowers GP's raw mechanic requirements quite a bit. I think that'll end up being a big deal.
Everything else is pretty minor.
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Yet another set of meaningless "nerfs" for azir lol.
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