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Rayn=bird, birds are beatiful innocent creatures.
Robick= towns puppet prince, not mafias.
Holy= A proven scum player, is capable of bussing and providing cases as red, his temper flares and willingness to over contribute imply hes town though, for the moment.
Marv= If town, hes making a point of manipulating both factions, he really seems to be playing into the legacy of himself this game, which isnt something I typically see Marv do to be honest / : hes just really playing up the marvellous in marvelosity. Like hes not just setting traps, hes talking about them / : which kinda defeats the purpose, or maybe not, who knows (Marv knows : P). Null
Palmar: Still not sure about him, early interactions have left uneasy because a) I still feel his immediate interactions with Rayn were somewhat artificial and b) he responded to my questions well enough, but I'm not sure why he treated me as seriously as he did when he has a precedent of responding to better accusations with anger and mockery. Null leaning scummy.
Prplhz=eh(feels genericaly townie)
Phagga=eh(feels genericaly scummy, will elaborate on if anyone cares, may elaborate anyways cause I do what I want : P)
Thrawn=baaaaah (Holy flare/rayn shepard is best shepard)
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On March 27 2014 06:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Actually just fuck it.
See you in 24 hours or so.
Policy.
##unvote
##vote prplhz
I don't even give a fuck if he is mafia or not because if he is not he is still playing towards mafia win condition.
I am not going to post until one of us dies.
This is retarded rayn.
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please do elaborate on phagga gumshoe.
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The only thing I really remember about his game is that during the rayn/holy shitstorm with thrawn chiming in occasionally, he was the one person who had the wits to actually just ask rayn what rayn's read on robik was based on, that looks sort of good.
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On March 27 2014 06:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Actually just fuck it.
See you in 24 hours or so.
Policy.
##unvote
##vote prplhz
I don't even give a fuck if he is mafia or not because if he is not he is still playing towards mafia win condition.
I am not going to post until one of us dies.
quit being a whiny baby
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oh come on rayn don't be like that. i'm sorry?
can someone defuse this situation?
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Marv this is going to be really boring if you wait for me to go to sleep or something, it's much more fun if you try to get me lynched while I'm still here.
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On March 27 2014 06:46 prplhz wrote:
oh come on rayn don't be like that. i'm sorry?
can someone defuse this situation?
I tried calling him a retard, do you think I helped?
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dunno maybe reducing tension isn't your strong side
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On March 27 2014 03:39 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2014 03:33 raynpelikoneet wrote:On March 27 2014 03:30 Palmar wrote:
Do you think marv's push against me is genuine? I don't know because i don't know what his push on you is. But he looks quite normal town!marv to me so my guess would be yes. Maybe we learn more when he tells us what his push is. You realize scummarv talks about things exactly the same way as town marv, the only difference is the quality of their contributions when they actually have something to add to the discussion?
This is basically completely untrue
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On March 27 2014 03:40 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2014 03:32 IAmRobik wrote:
why does marv have 5 pages of filter and 0 memorable content, whereas thrawn and phagga and gumshoe have 2 and have contributed a boatload more to the game? Hey Robik i tell you something. Forget about marv for now. He can appear useless for the first 40 hours if he chooses so. He will provide content when he thinks it needs to be provided and he'll have explanations for his actions. There is no way you can bully him into doing something you want by yelling him, voting for him, or by anything. When he does his stuff if it's not reasonable then he might be mafia. Right now there is nothing mafia-esque in his play.
Palmar, why does rayn get it and you don't? You've played with me like 15 times by now.
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On March 27 2014 06:24 IAmRobik wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2014 06:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Also Robik, the game is 36 pages long.
Your reads are from page 19. Nothing has changed since then regarding your reads? I got lazy and have been keeping up with the thread instead of catching up. I still haven't read 20-27/8. The other reads are up to date. They were posted on pg 29....they took what happened on pages 27/8 when I came back into the thread into account. Besides that, the past few pages are just people building post coutns and reiterating their opinions. Like...there's been so little new information presented.
Tell me, how do you know there has been little information presented if you have not read 8 pages of content?
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On March 27 2014 07:29 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2014 06:24 IAmRobik wrote:On March 27 2014 06:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Also Robik, the game is 36 pages long.
Your reads are from page 19. Nothing has changed since then regarding your reads? I got lazy and have been keeping up with the thread instead of catching up. I still haven't read 20-27/8. The other reads are up to date. They were posted on pg 29....they took what happened on pages 27/8 when I came back into the thread into account. Besides that, the past few pages are just people building post coutns and reiterating their opinions. Like...there's been so little new information presented. Tell me, how do you know there has been little information presented if you have not read 8 pages of content?
Did I not word what I said properly? I said that I was lazy and didn't read 20-27/8 yet. I said that I did read pages 28-present and think that there has been nothing new presented in those pages. I still have time to read 20-28. There were a lot of pages to catch up on when I woke up and got to work and opened the thread. I just got home and am sitting in my bathtub. I will probably read those pages tonight. I do also ahve almost a full day tomorrow. There's time yet to see if there is more information provided in those pages i missed.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Ok, so we're coming up to halfway through the day, I guess it's time for a list post so you all know what I'm thinking. I know I've trolled around some, but that's basically just because I can. So in roughly descending order, and with some probably interchangeable:
rayn: I have zero reason to think he's mafia atm. I've read his alignment literally 100% correctly in the last 6 months. Don't need reasons.
IAmRobik: Actually maybe he's too high here as per my last post. Feels quite off that he would get lazy in a game. But meh, he's in 2 games. I basically agree with rayn's point about how he presented his rayn town-read. His weird language thing with Palmar. It's all pretty kooky but kooky in an interesting way at least. Not worried atm at least.
Holyflare: Logical progression of thoughts, decent thrawn case I guess. Swore twice that I noticed in what I saw as natural situations. I can't be bothered to quote them but I could if I really searched. The net of it being it didn't feel forced like his emotion does as mafia sometimes. That'll do for him for today.
gumshoe: Again similar to how rayn mentioned, stuck up for himself and persisted really stubbornly and unnecessarily if he was mafia. Trying to figure things out yo.
phagga: Interchangeable with prplhz below tbh. phagga has never been a "big impact" player so the fact that he's trundling along doesn't worry me unduly, and nothing he's said has pinged me. Sensible enough observations, I remember him taking a decently clear stance on the rayn/holy thing (that he understood rayn but rayn was being antagonistic)
prplhz: Looks like he's intentionally trying to be infuriating. Looks like he's trying to be casual. Too much? Like it's not that hard to give him a town read because he seems IDGAF, but it's almost to the point of negligence of playing the game properly at all. But there's two ppl scummier so by default that makes him town for the moment.
thrawn: I mostly get the case against him. Although in some ways I don't get it. I find it quite hard to explain actually. Actually his return to the thread is dire. "woops i could have been lying but it turns out I wasn't" - what? If you're town you should know know know you're not lying? Also on his return has not tried to push anything forward, has not done anything else after that rayn debacle, has not renewed his read on rayn. I like him for mafia much more than I did before he posted a couple times last page or whenever it was. For balance, here's a couple of things that just made me think he was town due to flippancy or whatever you want to call it:
On March 26 2014 15:01 thrawn2112 wrote:
Rayn what's my shitlogic? I didn't even explain my vote or read on you until after you called me mafia What is this shitlogic you are talking about?
please give quotes, and they have to come from before you decided I was mafia for being "dumb" for the story of your thrawn-read to make sense
(there won't be any)
On March 26 2014 15:54 thrawn2112 wrote:
wtf are you talking about? you're just saying words
do you really wanna stand by the statement that town thrawn doesn't jump to conclusions?
Palmar: Well, firstly Robik made whatever his point was on Palmar, which I thought was a bit nonsense but as it was on Palmar it may be the greatest point ever. Holyflare summarised some decent points against Palmar also. So that's other stuff.
Mainly Palmar is not playing the game at all. He has 6 pages of filter, but he's literally not playing. The big problem is that he is pretending to play. You'll find quotes littered from me across various games giving 3 scenarios for Palmar:
1) he tries hard and he is productive. He is town.
2) he blatantly doesn't give a shit and doesn't hide the fact he is not productive. He is town.
3) he looks like he's playing the game a bit but in reality is unproductive. He is mafia.
What we have this game is scenario 3. Take the start of the game. rayn did some random townclaim that literally is not worth mentioning, and is also not really the type of thing that Palmar gives a fuck about. But Palmar asks him about previous games, but then "remembers" that he has townclaimed as town before and didn't do so as mafia. It's dead content, he could have just thought for 2 seconds and remembered this instead of bringing something irrelevant to the thread.
If you recall, I asked for a clarification from Palmar earlier about what he remembered and what he looked up, because I wanted to know if he went away and found things that contradicted his "theory", or he in fact already knew them. And by and large he already knew them.
Palmar asked me a really standard, flat question about how I viewed Holyflare, to see if I had been reading the thread attentively. That's literally not how you ever read me, and anyone who knows me passingly knows that. I will produce good content in my own time (or not), and I do not need to be "quizzed" on reading comprehension of the thread. It's just an empty way of looking like he's involved and caring about what's going on. But he doesn't.
Palmar offers to speak to Robik about Robik's read on him - look, Palmar cares! But when Robik tries to open a dialogue with Palmar, repeatedly, he's not responded to. Palmar doesn't care.
I say he doesn't because it's quite clear. His reads are all empty one liners, hiding behind a facade of joviality but he's literally not trying to move the game on. Speaking of his read on me, look how weak and spineless it is. I start calling him scum, and we get
On March 26 2014 22:19 Palmar wrote:
Are you scum marv?
Fine, whatever. Kinda half-hearted but I guess any alignment can post this way. I basically continue because I'm pretty interested in *how* Palmar is going to omgus me (plus it's fun to antagonise Palmar a bit).
I push Palmar on his read on me:
On March 27 2014 01:56 Palmar wrote:
and remember marv, I slow-cook my OMGUS
I disagree with him, and say he doesn't, so:
On March 27 2014 01:59 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2014 01:57 marvellosity wrote:On March 27 2014 01:56 Palmar wrote:
and remember marv, I slow-cook my OMGUS no you don't. You really don't. you're right I guess ##vote marvellosity
So he votes me. The point of all this is that Palmar is not leading the way in any of this. He half-heartedly calls me mafia when I start saying he's mafia, and he literally only votes for me when I tell him to. Palmar as town, if he's playing seriously, tries to genuinely find out what I'm doing, or he'll just full-blown omgus me. None of this in-the-middle, in-between-omgus-because-marv-told-me-to nonsense.
Regarding gumshoe
They had this thing at the beginning of the game. Kinda culminated in
On March 26 2014 09:36 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2014 09:30 gumshoe wrote:On March 26 2014 09:26 Palmar wrote:
Also regarding genuine, no matter my alignment I would always be genuine right now. There is a reason I asked rayn the question, and that reason exists whether or not I am mafia or town. So why do you say I am not genuine? I agree with you, a reason does exist, when the reason is some other than "Asking this question of rayn because I think hes scummy" I consider it not genuine and I'm forced to consider other reasonings other than the prefered default. As for why your not literally genuine, 2 reasons 1) I dont believe you couldnt come up with a reason for him asking me that question. 2) Going by the first bit. I dont understand why youd ask that question knowing how easy it is to answer. 3) Your quick acceptance indicated your confusion was meh, possibly non existant. If the bolded is true I am mafia for asking that question, no matter what. The only answer you accept as genuine can not possibly be given at that point in the thread because it's completely unreasonable to think rayn is scummy at that point. Thus by your own definition I must be mafia for asking that question and there is no need for you to follow up on it, as any answer I give will always make me mafia in your eyes. ##Vote gumshoe
Just as a brief recap into Palmar's usual modus operandi, he'll usually try to delve into someone's motives as much as he can, and when he's decided someone is mafia, they're gonna be mafia, he'll have some (a lot) of faith in his own read usually. Anyways so yeah, voting gumshoe. Shortly after in the conversation:
On March 26 2014 10:03 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2014 09:59 gumshoe wrote:On March 26 2014 09:56 Palmar wrote:
Which questions did I not cover?
And you still need to explain why the magic phrase "I was trying to create discussion" is a get out of jail free card. Not until you answer definitively yes or no. That is the question, the only question I have of you. which one, whether or not I was trying to create discussion? Seeing as I posted as much in the next post after I asked rayn the question I thought the answer should be default, did you not notice that? And no, it's an opportunity to do something that may or may not provide something useful, so yes I was creating discussion and no that wasn't the sole purpose of the question. Do I get to go home now officer?
This bolded part (and also his general tone in his posts after he votes gumshoe, you can go check for yourselves) actually mostly seems to imply that gumshoe is in fact town, and Palmar is defending his stance against a town gumshoe. Not that gumshoe is mafia (supposedly) and twisting what Palmar is doing to a scummy narrative.
Later on he decides:
On March 26 2014 22:12 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2014 22:10 phagga wrote:On March 26 2014 21:58 Palmar wrote:On March 26 2014 19:27 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Palmar what do you think gumshoe's alignment is and how sure you are of it? probably town Why do you think gumshoe is town? Because he was an asshole to me, I don't think scumshoe would be an asshole to me.
Palmar has changed his opinion for no particular reason. It's weak, and it's weak reasoning, given what has come before.
Some other thing of note:
On March 26 2014 21:58 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2014 19:27 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Palmar what do you think gumshoe's alignment is and how sure you are of it? probably town
Town-Palmar almost never answers questions on alignment with a simple statement read like this. If he does so, it's in a jokey-trolly way, like "prplhz confirmed town hero" or "Holyflare is not my scumbuddy". Palmar is a massive proponent of always explaining why your read is what it is, but he neglects to do so until pushed.
tldr: Palmar doesn't care about finding mafia, even though he kinda tries to make it look like he's interested. He has no real reads on anyone even though he's given superficial reads which require no thought. He's inconsistent in a spineless way re:gumshoe. His attitude towards me has been pretty spineless because frankly he doesn't know how to deal with me, whereas if he were town he'd smack me down rather than practically have me make him vote me. The dude is mafia.
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Right now I am reading through the thread and posting my thoughts in notepad as i read. I'm currenty up to the point where rayn makes his game post but I found som,ething interesting about holyflare's first conversation with robik so i wanna post what I've already got.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=4#63 palmar makes the first "real" post of the game by asking about rayn's meta. further posts from palmar indicate that he's done his own research. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=4#73I have no idea how to read people who open like this. Best just to ignore it unless gumshoe keeps talking about it. So here ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=4#78 ) palmar asked what to me looks like a forced question, but his follow up of "getting a thread moving is hard" suggests that he knows he just asked a forced question, out of necessity to start discussion. I think Palmar is town so far. Here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=5#81) rayn is setting a trap for gumshoe, trying to catch gumshoe based off of what rayn knows scum gum would do. I think that is townie and slightly difficult to fake as scum. I like the way gumshoe is interacting with palmar. He doesn't seem scared or anything like that. Unfortunately this palmar/gum/rayn thing starts getting really boring and I'm not developing any reads off of what I'm reading. I think what is going on is that gumshoe and palmar are town, and gumshoe is not understanding that A) palmar's stuff is forced, but it's sorta forced on purpose so that he can start discussion and B) palmar's expectations of answers rayn might give are different that gumshoe's expectations of palmar's expectations of answers that rayn might give. So far I think palmar/rayn and gumshoe are all town, and I'm the least sure about gumshoe because he's kinda hard to read. It might just be the way he talks. Here's ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=6#101 ) marv's first real post of the game and I do not like. Does marv really expect that gumshoe must be voting for palmar this early based on what gumshoe has said? This question seems a little stupid for marv. annnnnd palmar votes for gumshoe. this was unexpected. dunno what to think. marv comes in talking about this gum/palmar stuff and tbh it's a very annoying read, lots of arguing over "who thought who thought what" and it's hard to follow. so I'm gonna skim the rest of this "part" of the thread. And here's (page 8/9) Robik! He's being an ass, he's acting like he's the shit, he's making early game reads based on nothing, and he's expecting everyone to take everything he says for granted. Seems like town robik to me. Holyflare does something interesting. On page 9 he lays into robik, grilling robik over robik's town read on rayn. Every question that holyflare asks robik comes with the assumption that rayn does not deserve the town read that robik's giving him. So why hasn't holyflare discussed his read on rayn, if he doesn't think that rayn is townie? He's pointing out all these problems with rayn's play but he himself does not care about his percieved problems with rayn's play. Scum points. Here ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=9#176 ) is what I'm talking about. After reading that post you would assume that hf has a scumread on rayn, but he doesn't mention it. Robik says that hf's point against palmar (rayn's town claim) is bad. I agree, I also took rayn's post as a town claim. Interesting that holyflar did not (or couldn't) see it that way. Annnd here's (page 10) rayn's game post. i don't want to read this section of the thread lol.
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i'm probably not gonne be responding to any questions until i've finished going through the whole thread in the way i did the the above post.
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PAART 2
+ Show Spoiler +I'm reading all this stuff again and rayn's posts make a lot more sense than they did when I read them the first time. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=13#242ehhhh fuck i really hate being buddied like this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=13#251this post is very different than how hf acted last game when he caught dp Phagga comes into the thread at pg 13 and starts asking me questions. the questions seem alright i guess? I mean it looks like he is really trying to figure out what I'm talking about. I'm slightly town on phagga. Oh, before I forget, holyflare accused robik of lying, but i haven't seen him say anything about his read on robik in awhile. I'll see how long it takes him to remember his robik scum-red. It didn't take long ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=15#287 ) I'm kinda confused about what hf's reads are at this point. He hasn't retracted his scumread of robik but he's not really trying to develop that read. He's telling rayn that rayn is being hypocritical for attacking thrawn for something that rayn is also doing, does this mean holyflare thinks both rayn and thrawn are scummy? That seems like a werid position because hf had been buddying me up till this point, and I don't think that anyone can be reading the game and think that BOHT rayn and I could be mafia. HF makes other posts before the one I just linked that suspect hes thinks i might have done something fishy... but he's not really talking about his thrawn-read. All of it just seems weird, like hf is calling everyone and nobody mafia. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=17#337So here's the "lie" I told? I have no idea what hf is talking about. There's no lie there. I voted rayn after asking rayn a question, therefore.... what? In the very post that hf quoted, i said "the initial reason I voted for him which I haven';t explained until now" which means that my actual reason for voting for rayn had nothing to do with anything I posted in the thread at the time i voted for rayn. The real, main reason I voted for rayn was because the game post felt extremely fake. All of it. It was too happy, or wierd, idk how to describe it. But it didn't feel right, it felt extremely forced and bad. The reason I eneded up unvoting rayn later on is that I remembered something that happened in the PM game. town rayn was trying to make a fake qt and I thought that the qt didn't look real, to me it was obvious that rayn was faking his posts. This is closer to how I felt after reading rayn's "game" post. It matched my memory of town rayn faking posts, which is understandble because when writing a "game" where people need to figure out if you're lying, you are naturually going to write in a way that makes it difficult for them to do so. So it should be obvious to anyone who's read these notes that I am scumreading hf. The scumreads he decides to talk about seem to change with the whim of the thread, and his cases (against palmar and me) are bad. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=20#390posts like these are what I don't understand about holyflare's play. He'll have a scumread on someone, then drop that scumread to take up another scumread, then agree with points that his scumread is making, and all these things seem to happen so that holyflare fits in well with the thread's current opinion. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=23#448lol, prplhz. objectively it's a "scummy and useless" thing to say but tbh I town read him for posts like that. does mafia go "i don't have a single read so far" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=23#453marv let me know fi you still want answers to this. i don't really care to talk about any of that also. GODDAMMIT MARV. i hate buddying. there's no reason for you to play nice with me.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
It's not buddying, and there's plenty of reason to play nice with you.
I can bury you and get you lynched practically without question, and if you're town that's no good to me. Please don't ever tell me there's no reason for something I've done, because you don't know that.
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the problem is that it makes me confused about your alignment
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part 3
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=24#464this reinforces my town read on rayn. it shows his thought process, like he's thinking about the game as a puzzle, which is how townies approach the game rather than scum who know alignments (page 25) I have a hard time believing marv is serious about this palmar vote. palmar seems kinda townie to me so far. also, marv is refusing to talk to palmar and is not explaining why he thinks palmar is mafia. he's playing it off like he's above having to do those things, but he isn't and he should know that. eh. but marv is just so casual about all of this. i dont know what to think about him atm. Ok, around pages 27-29 my reads on holyflare, palmar, and marv have flip flopped several times, most of it being related to associative tells based on hf and marv pointing out some questionable things that palmar said. So my reads on all 3 of them have weakend (except marv really, i've never had a real read on him) but the reads are still the same. I think i'm losing my townread on phagga. he asked some reasonable stuff at the beginning but he's barely around, and hardly around for very long. it's not very difficult for scum to only say smart things if they don't actually say very many things. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=30#591lol, prplhz is still hilarious and I still think he's town. the only way he's mafia is if he's going for the "let's only do things and post things that everyone will think is too scummy to be scum" plan gumshoe comes in around pages 32/33 and sorta defends me and i'm not sure how I feel about it. i think this ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=33#658 ) post might be the tipping point, the point where's he's defending me too hard. my problem with gum's position is that it doesn't seem like he's wondering if I could be mafia, he's only seeing things from town-thrawn's PoV. He should at least TRY to see if there is a scum thrawn PoV. sooo scum points for gumshoe http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=34#662then gumshoe caves in and starts scumreading me... was that all it took? he spent two pages defending me and suddenly he flips his read because of a meta statement from rayn that gumshow ust took for granted?
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EPT
