EPTNormal Mini Mafia LVI
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
Signups 1. Chezinu 2. VisceraEyes 3. YouKnowZhou 4. 27ninjabunnies 5. Snickers 6. goodkarma 7. Lazermonkey 8. Release 9. mderg 10. Artanis[Xp] 11. Oatsmaster 12. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
i do feel im pretty ready for this game tho, esp becuz i am a smurf | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that. What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote: I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote: So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
The Kenpachi rule, named after its author Kenpachi, is a TL adage reflecting the idea that without a clear and better motivation for a vote, it is almost certainly a scumtell when a player votes a player who claimed VT at the start of the game. Kenpachi's rule, in broader form, is: Without a blantant display of humor, a vote on a vt claim comes almost always from a scum player. The core of Kenpachi rule is that a vt claim by its nature is not suspicious to a town player, who isn't hunting for blues. Without a clear motivation for a vt claim, it looks odd to scum, who want to attack someone safely. A corollary of the Kenpachi rule is the reverse phenomenon: the first vt claim is almost always sincere. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 16 2014 10:33 goodkarma wrote: These definitions don't exactly match up... You can search it on TL for urself, but it's not about claiming townie, as 27ninjabunnies asserts. The rule is about claiming vanilla townie. Basicly, scum want to jump on something, and a VT claim looks basicly not intresting to a townie who isn't hunting for blues. It looks unique though to someone who is hunting for blues: scum. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 16 2014 10:47 goodkarma wrote: But knowing all of this, couldn't you say you're VT regardless of alignment, bait someone's suspicion and then claim Kenpachi rule? I'm having trouble understanding why at the very start of the game scum would be more prone to jumping on something that looks scummy. I mean if scum's job is to blend in, why be the first to vote and make a case? There's always scrutiny that comes with doing so... I understand your concern. Let me elucedate: Kenpachi's rule actually works. Your concerned bcuz you assume a townie would vote a vt claim so scum could claim vt then a townie votes and gets "baited". Your concern is wrong bcuz a townie would never do this. this is part of the kenpachi's rule. the next part is that you assume it looks scummy, which it isn't. scum would never claim vt bcuz scum wants to be able to fakeclaim blue at lylo or sumthing. scum wants to blend in but they are jumpy silly folk. kenpachi rule always works, bcuz it never fails. tyvm | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 16 2014 10:58 Snickers wrote: Hello everyone. I am not sure how to quote someone so if the above quote was wrong please tell me how. (I checked preview and it looked right) What does BH stand for? For awhile i thought VT stood for vigilante not vanilla town. Also this kenpachi rule is useless. BH stands for "Blazinghand": he is a mafia-guy who is mean to newbies and throws around his "vet" status in games and thinks he is way better then everyone else. ne1 who thinks I am BH also thinks I am town tho cuz BH's favorite thing is to fake claim blue roles every game when he is scum. He would never claim vt as scum bcuz he wants to fake claim blue rofl | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote: i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
Well, because 27nb is in fact scum, jumped on me for kenpachi rule reasons, and snickers brought up a legit concern for 27nb who doesn't know whether I am blue or green (only knows that i'm not scum with him/her). So, there you have it. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 16 2014 11:27 goodkarma wrote: This reminds me of something you once said in Les Mafia: Did something change? Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 16 2014 11:39 27ninjabunnies wrote: You are soooooo wrong on me. It's super bad. And tbh, idc what you think of yourself, but you haven't impressed me ass the "best" in TL Mafia. I caught your mafia self d1. Get rekt! And as I said, Kenpachi rule is useless and stupid, and it will be highly disproved this game. I have no need to backtrack, and I had not backtracked anywhere. I'm going forward with this lynch and into the abyss you go! People will come into the thread, and nobody will vote me, and you'll be very sad  Then, I'll post an awesome case about halfway through the day going post by post and breaking down your weak fluffy illogic into perfect cubes of understanding, piercing your veil of lies with spears of logic and reason. And then everyone, lost without me, will lynch you, and when you flip scum they will bow down, not before me, but before Kenpachi (RIP) and his glorious Rule. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 16 2014 11:43 Snickers wrote: Can you explain why a townie would never do that. Also what does lylo stand for. I know it is a phase at the end of the game. I can probably figure out why a scum would fake claim blue if i knew the definition. A townie isn't drawn to a VT claim in the way scum is. As a townie, when you see a VT claim, you think "huh, I guess that's a bit weird", but it's not the main thing on your mind. Scum, however jumps on it cause that's what scum does. Also, it's extremely worth noting that Kenpachi Rule Extended applies even to 27nb's current case. LYLO means "LYnch or LOse". It's when if town mislynches, town loses. So, 2 townies and 1 scum together are at LYLO, or 3 townies and 2 scum. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 16 2014 11:53 27ninjabunnies wrote: Do I need t drill this into this thick skull of yours? I don't care AT ALL you claimed VT. I said it was super weird, yes, but that's not why im reading you as scum.. Seriously, learn to freaking read, and stop putting words in my mouth. Gotta do your research my friend. Kenpachi Rule Extended isn't about vt claims. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 16 2014 12:16 slOosh wrote: Alright, let's cut it out with the "Kenpachi Rule" and associated nomenclature. It isn't immediately clear to everyone and is muddling up the discussion. Let's get this straight. Bunnies, you think YKZ is scum because of the phrase "limited information"? His post paraphrased as "I'm not listening to you because you are town"? YKZ, you think bunnies is scum for her initial call out of your post "I'm vt"? Please try to be a bit more clear with your posts please. Look at all the scummy stuff I've posted since my original post. Any real townie would be all over me for things like "I'm allowed to lie" and my blanatant lying etc but all YKZ is on is my OG post because he is scum. Any real townie would be all up on dis, think about it | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
I mean, if a guy is making a case on me (you're not, but 27nb is), why ignore all the weird shit I said after my first post? Or the fact that I like abjectly lied to the thread with intent to decieve? This is not the behavior that someone actually trying to hunt scum and thought bh was scum would exhibit after voting bh. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 16 2014 12:43 slOosh wrote: Wait. So if bunnies did a "proper follow up", what would you have done? "oh it was a trap all the scummy things I did ignore that"? Depends how proper we're talking, but I'd probably just find some other reason to push him unless it was a really dang good follow-up. That being said, if it was REALLY REALLY REALLY good, I'd probably get kinda mad, dig my heels in, and try to get him lynched anyways JUST BECAUSE. But I'd eventually realize it was dunderheaded and lynch someone else instead. I hope. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 17 2014 02:39 Release wrote: @Lazer (and everyone else): His actions alone are bad. The repetitiveness of the badness and refusal to change his play after being corrected manifest his mafia agenda. "blazinghand is stubborn, therefore he is mafia" and "blazinghand has scumslipped, therefore he is mafia" are both sentences that are like always super doops wrong. I certainly can be stubborn as mafia, but I'm always stubborn. And the scumslip thing, come on guys. I legit don't scumslip as scum, and scumslip all the time as town, ask like anyone who has played more than 2 games with me. Also, I'm just generally a stubborn bastard no matter what I roll; again, ask anyone who has played with me. I will say this though: although I don't particularly like that Release is all over me like a dog on a butt-flavored biscuit, I gotta give him credit: he IS all over me. He went through my filter and tried to find anything he could possibly construe as scummy and slapped it down in a big honkin filter dive case. Now, it's a big honkin WRONG filter drive case, but it's still a lot of effort. Maybe he was explicitly dodging Kenpachi Rule Extended, but he still gets mondo credit for putting in effort imo. Is release scummy for jumping in and just repeating what other people said? Eh, maybe. It's certainly a easy move for scum to make, but it's also worth noting that it's a move town would make. Suppose Release comes in and sees this horrible back and forth between me and 27nb, and for some weird reason becomes convinced I'm scum as a result. He wants to drop a vote on me, but also there's like no-one voting me, so he drops a hella big case. He does work, he does research. I give him credit for this, at least. Yes, it would have been good if he had an original idea, but if he didn't, he didn't. There's only so much to be said about me. Maybe you think he's scum because you think I'm scum and this is the most poorly executed bus ever, but really, 1) it would be a terrible way to do it, and 2) as SloOsh said (and he gets mucho townie points for this) you don't draw associative tells between unflipped players. Back onto the 27nb thing, Check it out. If you look at 27nb's filter, you see the initial push on me, and you see some interactions on me in places where I directly call out 27nb, but that's it as far as interactions with me. Check out some of the posts I made after the post that set off 27nb's "flag" so to speak about me being scummy: On June 16 2014 11:05 YouKnowZhou wrote: BH stands for "Blazinghand": he is a mafia-guy who is mean to newbies and throws around his "vet" status in games and thinks he is way better then everyone else. ne1 who thinks I am BH also thinks I am town tho cuz BH's favorite thing is to fake claim blue roles every game when he is scum. He would never claim vt as scum bcuz he wants to fake claim blue rofl In this post i'm explicitly stating I'm not BH and trying to fake not being me. Even worse, I'm setting up the "bh claiming vt must be town" meme and I later "accidentally" reveal myself to be BH. If I were someone who thought YKZ was scum and saw this, I'd be all over it. I'd point out that it's awfully CONVENIENT to say that and then "accidentally" reveal yourself to be bh. I'd write a case, or at least a post, or heck, at least a SENTENCE, about this. Since I'm already suspicious of YKZ, since I supposedly have a scumread on YKZ, responding to this would be a NATURAL thing to do if I was town and voting YKZ. And yet, no response from 27nb (who was in thread at the time) next.. On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote: Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is. Look at what I'm saying here. I'm literally admitting to lying to and deceiving the thread. I then say it's okay to lie and that the ends justify the means. Jesus christ on a stick with a cherry on top, how do you not flip out over this if you're town and think I'm scum? You'd be like "look, BH is obviously willing to lie. He was trying to pretend to be someone else while smurfing, which is a CLASSIC BH move when smurfing as scum. He even admits it, right here, in an attempt to defuse the situation. You can't let this slide guys, this is proof BH is scum" anyone who thinks I'm suspicious and has a vote on me, after reading that I admit to lying and trying to decieve the thread, would be ALL OVER this post. You want to know how 27nb responds, though? Here, I'll show you. On June 16 2014 11:39 27ninjabunnies wrote: You are soooooo wrong on me. It's super bad. And tbh, idc what you think of yourself, but you haven't impressed me ass the "best" in TL Mafia. I caught your mafia self d1. Get rekt! And as I said, Kenpachi rule is useless and stupid, and it will be highly disproved this game. I have no need to backtrack, and I had not backtracked anywhere. I'm going forward with this lynch and into the abyss you go! All 27nb sees is the part of the post directed at her. She argues about like backtracking or whatever, and says she's going forward with this lynch while literally ignoring possibly the most damning statement a player could make. If she was really town and really thought I was scum, at this point she'd say, not "blah blah kenpachi rule backtracking, your'e so bad and i'm so good", she'd say, "ah hah! Caught you in a lie, blazinghand, this is exactly what scum do!" You can see she's clearly not in a mindset of hunting scum, or hell, even actually PUSHING The wagon. She is putting on a big SHOW of pushing the wagon, but she's not actually doing it. She's not pointing out what I'm posting, or why I'm scum, just shouting about like one sentence in one post. She's not hunting scum. She's making noise. This is because she lacks the town mindset, the mindset that someone who really thought I was scum would have. Because 27nb is scum. vote her, for justice. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 17 2014 03:13 slOosh wrote: Hmm, not quite feeling the flaming spears of logic and justice yet. I think my most recent post demonstrates that 27nb's attention is drawn towards statements about her, rather than incriminating things I say-- even a bad townie would naturally respond to me saying things like "I lied to decieve town because I thought I could get away with it", whereas scum regardless of badness would naturally respond to me saying kenpachi rule but NOT respond to additional evidence. It's not a matter of skill, it's a matter of mindset. A townie, even a new townie (I remember being one), when thyey have a scumread on someone and that person does something really scummy, they RESPOND to it. they add it to their case. It's the natural thought process of a town player REGARDLESS of skill. 27nb is not showing this natural thought process. Look at her responses to my posts. Is she responding to things I say that are scummy or inconsistent and pointing out their inconsistency? Or is she just shouting about my first post whenever she gets the chance, and not actually trying to convince people to lynch me based on new evidence that emerges? A townie who was really tunnelled on me would LOVE to point out new scummy things I say, because he's still trying to formulate and develop a case. 27nb is always talking about me, sure, but look at WHAT she's responding to. Not the stuff a townie would. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 17 2014 03:36 slOosh wrote: Alright YKZ - the million dollar question. What's your read on Artanis? Townie, for this post: On June 17 2014 00:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Snickers, you mentioned that you felt Release made a good post before, now you accuse him of twisting your words to hurt you. What's your overall read on him? If he were scum and just trying to get a counterwagon rolling he wouldn't ask a nuanced question on someone's changing opinion of his push target. The case on Release isn't good, obviously, but the follow-up indicates town mindset. You don't see scum making a post like this. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 17 2014 14:15 goodkarma wrote: I know BH can get busy etc., but given that he has literally done nothing but tunnel one player at this point using a rather baseless argument, I believe he's playing more to his scumgame than his towngame. As such, he earns my vote.: ##Vote: YouKnowZhou YouKnowZhou doesn't seem very interested in figuring out other players, YouKnowZhou doesn't seem to care about literally anything but jumping at ninja repeatedly with the same argument, YouKnowZhou is scum by his own argument.: In short, YKZ holds ninja to be scum because ninja didn't evolve her case, while YKZ really hasn't evolved his... It's still about Kenpachi rule, and he holds ninja to a different standard than he is holding himself. A standard which makes her scum while he somehow is not... First off Kenpachi rule clearly doesn't apply to me since 27nb hasn't claimed VT and Kenpachi Rule Extended doesn't apply either since I've addressed her continuing filter (and her continuing non-addressal of my filter). Secondly I tunnel who I want, when I want, and there's nothing you or anyone else can do to stop my tunnelling. Stop your so-called "thought process" for a moment here and think about this possibility: 27nb is scum. Why would I devote my time to all you guys silly cases on people like artanis or Release-- oh wait, I already did that, and pointed out my reads, and hey, looks like 27nb is STILL SCUM. I'd like you to take a moment to contemplate what you're saying here. You're saying that I, YKZ (supposedly Blazinghand) am tunnelling someone, and that the fact that I'm monomaniacally focused on my target indicates that I am... wait for it... scum? ._. You forget the real situation, which is that I'm monomaniacally focused on my target because my target is in fact scum.. Put yourself in my shoes. You have caught scum. Who are you gonna vote? Are you gonna vote, push on, and develop your case on scum? Or are you gonna do something useless and awful? Well, many people call me useless and awful, but I'm not. Instead of being useless and awful, I'm voting 27nb and have shown that 27nb's continued mindset was in fact indicative of a scum alignment. So... I'm still voting 27nb. Would you look at that, my logic makes sense, unlike the logic of, say, illogical people. Now, you are a logical person, GK. I know this because you and me, we're like *this* (makes gesture). So as a logical person, I want you to take a look at how I play as scum (you've known my scum play well) and how I play as town, and realize that the logical side is my side. I will say that I still have to digest 27nb's back-off in response to the lynch on her getting traction. It seems like such an obviously scummy move that it almost falls into "too scummy to be scum" territory, though of course such territory is meaningless anyways. I can't get why she'd do this as scum, except of course to make me think that thought. I'll sleep on it, I suppose. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 17 2014 14:42 goodkarma wrote: Barring that someone jumps up and down screaming he/she's scum, yes there's generally some degree of vote distribution. And that's where consolidating becomes key to help prevent the sway of scum influence on the vote and produce as much information as possible. And while I, and I am sure several others here, are more than happy to answer questions such as this one they're better suited for asking a coach in a newbie game. Here, they're just going to distract from whatever you have to say and fluff your filter, so I would urge you to use them sparingly and only when you absolutely need to know something you can't find out from somewhere like mafiascum.net wiki. I do believe that there's a decent chance Release could be scum. However, unlike YKZ he's willing to come in and answer questions. He's continuing to post and and YKZ is not. It doesn't sit very well with me seeing him voting for the same guy I am, but association based deductions day one is not something I can realistically do. Independent of everything else YKZ is looking scummier to me right now than Release. Therefore he gets my vote. wtf, I answer like every question, even the "million dollar question" Probably like at least 10% of my freaking filter is dealing with the inane questions of hopeless proles who are begging for my time. believe it or not, GK, I was not placed into this game to serve you. I am not a servant. I am not a slave. I am not an indentured servant who is working off the debt he accrued paying for his passage to the "new world". No, I'm Blazinghand, the best player on TL Mafia, Claimer Extraordinary and Intelligent, He Who Doesn't Always Make Cases, But When He Does He Doesn't, The Catcher of the Three, The RNG Lyncher of Odin. Can you mess with those titles? You can't, that's right. So if you want me to answer your alleged "questions" or respond to your so-called "posts" you'll need to do better than that. Actually, I guess you wouldn't need to do better than this post, since I am in fact responding to it, but you get the idea. I've written the best, most coherent case in this entire thread. There are nations that bow down before me (metaphorically speaking) because of the amazing case I've written on 27nb. In fact, GK, why aren't you answering my questions, huh? Oh, that's right, I guess I didn't ask any. Well, fair enough, you win this round. But the point I'm getting at is: My filter stands for itself and my positions stand for themselves. 27nb has done nothing, I repeat, nothing to make me think that she is town this game, except maybe back off of me in a weird way. As far as I can see, I see no reason not to lynch her, and as far as I can see, I don't see why you don't see a reason not to lynch her. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 17 2014 15:42 goodkarma wrote: And the Artanis comment I suppose is an opinion, but one I'd argue doesn't really say much about his alignment. you could argue that, but you would be wrong. Also, you want to unvote me, trust me. Just gimme a day and I'll fulfill all your wildest dreams good night sweet prince | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?user=Oatsmaster Now you might say, "YKZ, as far as I can tell, Oats has not in fact posted at all this game. What if he's just afk?" Well, he could just be afk. I'm willing to admit that. But on the other hand, what if he is both AFK and scum? IMO we can't trust Kurumi to modkill him, given Kurumi's track record on modkills that I don't actually know anything about. And even worse, what if Kurumi replaces him? Yes, that would be the worst by far. Can we really trust Oatsmaster? No, we can't. His silence is speaking for him. It is saying "I am possibly a pretty good lynch u guyz" But yeah gonna check out mderg since people seem to have a million boners for lynching him I guess. anyone got questions for me? I'll answer any question as long as it's coupled with a summary of the case on mderg. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
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On June 18 2014 05:22 slOosh wrote: Ehh I've been leaning against YKZ the whole time. He brought up Oats as a possible lurker lynch when people were considering mderg, and his "what's this mderg stuff about" looks like he wants other people to talk about it more, but isn't interested in bringing it up himself. Furthermore, there's no actual effort to convince people that bunnies is scum and we should be lynching her. His whole D1 gambit was to catch bunnies, and he already gave up on it. I didn't give up on it, it's 100% solid based on kenpachi rule and kenpachi rule extended. The fact that you guys don't believe in kenpachi rule extended doesn't make it wrong, it just makes you wrong. I'm not unvoting bunnies, and in the end you'll all apologize for being so wrong, or thank me for my leadership. One way or another, I'll be victorious and my notoriety will only increase. Long live kenpachi | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 18 2014 05:28 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Hi Koshi. ##Vote Koshi Replacements have been overwhelmingly mafia as of late. Plus I'm still salty from Cell I. You've cited nothing that discerns scum BH from town BH. He loves policy and he overexaggerates his opinion to get people lynched. He stopped trying to convince people to lynch bunnies because he no longer believed that when he stopped doing that. The gambit on catching bunnies can be from either alignment, I'm not sure what you're drawing from that. Where's bunnies right now, when we have more stuff to discuss? Sure, I'm not engaging the thread and talking about mderg (though nobody wants to summarise mderg stuff for me and I'm too lazy/busy at dinner to deal with it right now) but 27nb is conveniently gone! Yes, 27nb who could only think about my first post, who kenpachi rule, then kenpachi rule extended so hard, that if 27nb is scum you would all have to admit that kenpachi rule is the best policy. And yet here we are, with no votes on 27nb, and you know why? It's because you are weak. You are afraid, you don't trust the kenpachi rule. I understand, it's scary to put your faith in a rule. But when it comes down to it, kenpachi rule WORKS. Historically. People dislike the kenpachi rule, but try finding a better method of lynching people D1. RNG might cut it, but not in a game like this with a single faction. The only thing you can trust on D1 is Kenpachi Rule in a game like this imo | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 18 2014 05:30 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Oh wait, you're still voting bunnies? Yes, and I will only ever unvote if absolutely necessary to avoid some kind of awful lynch. That being said, as the shenannigan king I feel obligated to read about the cases and be ready for shenannies. I forgot to mention, the only thing better than certain policy lynch are shenannies, which have like a 67% success ratio on D1 for some reason. So I will bring the shenannies, if necessary, to save the day. Priority #1 though is 27nb. What has 27nb done that's been remotely useful all game? Nothing (though I'm too lazy to reread her filter to see). Look at that unvote on me when she realizes I can beat her 1 on 1? Look at that. Now, if you're town and you see scum rallying votes against you, do you just like unvote? Hell no. You double down, ratchet up the pressure, and go all in, so to speak. And yet here she is bailing under the pressure, and she even says "I know this won't stop the votes on me" to make the votes on her stop. A brilliant ploy, and you all got suckered by it. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
kpr = kenpachi rule or kenpachi rule extended applies odr = only a direct response to a mention, not new info lcp = low or no content post, or post providing rules or jargon info def = defense post a2a = asking someone else about a post already written, or asking for a reply rep = reply to a direct question aug = adding new info about new posts to an existing case ogi = original info, case, or line of questioning http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22363732 joke http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22363775 asking about vt claim (kpr) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22363812 kpr ogi http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22363825 kpr http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22363828 kpr http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22363881 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22363953 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22363963 def http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22363979 a2a http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22364070 kpr http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22364138 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22364203 lcp def http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22364205 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22364250 a2a http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22364269 def http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22364275 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22364313 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22364322 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22364345 def http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22364353 def http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22364387 def http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22364398 rep http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22364439 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22364462 kpr rep http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22364535 def rep http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22365083 rep ogi - but the original info she posts is "Snickers could be town or mafia" which isn't really much of a case imo http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22365086 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22369105 a2a http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22369141 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22369238 def http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22370427 rep about associations. kpr rep @lazer http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22370830 def a2a aug - after I call her out, she addresses a very small portion of my filter beyond the first post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22370988 def http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22371000 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22371135 def http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22371207 ogi talking about associative tells http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22371224 def http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22371287 def http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22371536 ogi says I'm town for reading artanis as town, unvotes me http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22371652 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22371923 rep aug about how I'm town http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22373297 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22374269 a2a not clear what about http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22374392 lcp martyring http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22374405 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22374919 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22374933 ogi "artanis is town" almost no explanation http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22375435 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22375865 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22376936 lcp http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22377612 ogi "release is town" no explanation http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22378272 lcp The vast, vast majority of 27nb's posts fall into one of 3 categories: 1. defenses and direct replies to people questioning her 2. attacks that fall under the kenpachi rule or kenpachi rule extended 3. super low content posts just hanging out, chatting, etc. The posts that 27nb has written that state direct opinions or add new info are these, and this is including kenpachi rule posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22363775 asking about vt claim (kpr) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22363812 kpr ogi http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22365083 rep ogi - but the original info she posts is "Snickers could be town or mafia" which isn't really much of a case imo http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22370427 rep about associations. kpr rep @lazer http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22370830 def a2a aug - after I call her out, she addresses a very small portion of my filter beyond the first post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22371207 ogi talking about associative tells http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22371536 ogi says I'm town for reading artanis as town, unvotes me http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22371923 rep aug about how I'm town http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22374933 ogi "artanis is town" almost no explanation http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22377612 ogi "release is town" no explanation Looks like a lot of posts, right? But most of these are about associative tells, or are calling people town with little or NO explanation, or are pushing me (kenpachi rule), or backtracking that push when she realizes she'll get lynched for it. if yout ake out the parts about associative tells, which are worthless, you get: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22363775 asking about vt claim (kpr) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22363812 kpr ogi http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22365083 rep ogi - but the original info she posts is "Snickers could be town or mafia" which isn't really much of a case imo http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22370830 def a2a aug - after I call her out, she addresses a very small portion of my filter beyond the first post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22371536 ogi says I'm town for reading artanis as town, unvotes me http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22371923 rep aug about how I'm town http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22374933 ogi "artanis is town" almost no explanation http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22377612 ogi "release is town" no explanation So basically 27nb calls me scum, then unvotes me when things go south, and calls artanis and release town without a good explanation. It's not the worst d1 filter (oatsmaster is the worst) but the fact of the matter is, people are calling 27nb active and townie for having 4 pages of no-content posts and direct responses to questions, or open-ended questions she doesn't follow up. She never pushed on the rest of my fitler, she never made a real, good scumread case, and even now she doesn't have a vote down. You're confusing posting and spamming for activity. I know you do this, because as scum it's my biggest strength: i post a lot of bullcrap and flood the thread with it and people think "BH is an active player, working hard, etc" even though I'm scum. 27nb is trying to pull the same trick this game, but it won't work, because you can't pull that trick on the master. In terms of word count, I probably have her beat even with 1/4 the posts, and for "useful input count" i have her beat EASILY because I actually have a case out. A good case. A case on 27nb that grows stronger. DO NOT BE AFRAID OF HER FILTER. IT IS LONG BUT EMPTY. look. She's trying to fool us. Don't let it happen. Vote 27nb. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
Lesser people are daunted by such a large filter, but I am not. I am Blazinghand, the best player on TL Mafia, Claimer Extraordinary and Intelligent, He Who Doesn't Always Make Cases, But When He Does He Doesn't, The Catcher of the Three, The RNG Lyncher of Odin. Diving such a filter is a paltry task, and when it comes down to it, let me assure you: 27nb has written next to nothing. She pushed me, unpushed me, then made no scumreads, talked vaguely about associative tells, and threw out a town/null read or two. That's it. Her filter is meaningless, she has done nothing, pushed nothing, taken no stances. We have to lynch her, it is NECESSARY because it is JUSTICE. Lynch 27nb. Kenpachi understands. Lynch her not just for kenpachi, but for her filter, which I have summarized for you. Lynch her for not giving reads, for not contributing, hell, or not developing her case on me AT ALL. Lynch for putting up the facsimile of a townie but not actually hunting scum. 27nb's filter isn't the filter of an active townie, it's a simulacrum of a filter of an active townie. Read it, and the illusion shatters. Lynch her. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 18 2014 08:54 Lazermonkey wrote: There isn't super much to be said. Bunnies has been active. I read YKZ's post about how Bunnies's post in reality wasn't good. I don't agree with it. If we would have such high standard as YKZ has then there are more players that should be regarded as very scummy. Such as mderp and VE... My entire post is about how Bunnies has not in fact actually done anything with that activity. Also, Kenpachi Rule. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
I don't think we need to continue blaming 27nb, the sole party at fault for this mislynch, because that wouldn't be productive. Let's move forwards and do our best to win, despite the massively scummy town play from 27nb. | ||
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You have forgotten a situation besides sloosh scum for gk kill. That situation is that scum is super amazingly astoundingly bad and incompetent. In fact I think we can confidently say that the scumteam this game is super low tier in terms of intelligence, knowledge, and competence. They are laughable and honestly I'm ashamed of even posting in the same thread as these chuckleheads. Honestly they are just idiots. They didn't even rb me. It's sad, or at least it would be, if it were not so funny. | ||
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oh shii maybe scumteam IS good then, I dun goofed. can't fakeclaim blue any more to try to draw nks | ||
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On June 20 2014 06:09 VisceraEyes wrote: That was way less than twelve hours scum. brb dinner 10 hours | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 20 2014 06:19 Lazermonkey wrote: Yo, I'm here for a short while. If there are any questions, just ask. You note that you're only slightly suspicious of me. However, I successfully pushed a mislynch all D1 basically to the exclusion of giving any other reads of substance, and haven't posted anything but fluff since 27nb flipped town. Why aren't you interested in voting me? | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 20 2014 06:29 Lazermonkey wrote: I didn't read much into your filter the first day TBH. You weren't a contender for the lynch. I do think that what you pointed out makes you look bad and thats why I said I was slightly suspicious of you. But pushing the misslynch of a townie IS something that townies do alot aswell. Right now I'm trying to understand the case on you in order to get a better read on you. I'd consider a case on me to have two main components: 1) I pushed a mislynch D1 2) That comprises the vast majority of my filter. Aside from a couple one-off notes I have not really engaged or given reads on anyone else, not even in the intervening 36 hours since the mislynch happened. Now, if 27nb flipped scum, there would be no suspicion on me basically at all. People would congratulate me for my excellent tunnelling of scum. As luck would have it, 27nb wasn't scum, just profoundly scummy town. And I am a bit tied up eating dinner at the moment so I don't really have time to put together a case on someone, or even write an adequate defense (though honestly the only adequate defense here would be for me to catch scum and then everyone be like "wow look a scum"). People are too lazy and unmotivated to catch scum, so they're just gonna lynch the me. I'm a legendary scum player. I'm so good that most people are naturally suspicious of me no matter what I do. This is acceptable. Ideally though once I'm done with dinner I come back and wow all you guys so hard that you can't even imagine lynching me. I'm the only town leader around here and without me the thread grinds to a halt, it seems. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 20 2014 06:40 Lazermonkey wrote: Yhea this is my impression from you aswell. The fact that you haven't done shit since lynch isn't helping you either. You haven't done any scumhuting at all. Its pretty obvious you aren't helping town at this point. But you attitude is suicidal as scum which makes you hard to get a good grip of. I wouldn't be super sad to see you die but I would rather kill VE or Koshi still. Man my attitude is fine, I just legit am eating dinner and can't like read thread, make cases, read etc. Now, you might be wondering, "YKZ, how come you have been eating dinner for over 36 hours now?" to which I can only answer, it's a really good dinner. If I had the ability to give reads I would. Now, if I could just make up reads or something and that would keep me alive, I'd consider it, but I'd rather not lead town astray. Like, sure, maybe I could say "mderg is scum let's lynch him" and we'd lynch him, but I don't actually know whether or not he is scum. I haven't read his filter, and since I'm at dinner, I really can't. All I can say is, I'm done with dinner in about 9 hours, and then I'll wow everyone with a wombo mondo case and people will lynch the guy I want to lynch, whoever that turns out to be. Believe me, if I had the ability to analyze and give accurate reads right now, I'd do it. This is a really good dinner. | ||
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United States262 Posts
On June 20 2014 06:48 Snickers wrote: Yo ykz and chezinu. Care to explain how you are playing to win. I think the only way you are playing to win is if your mafia. You guys must get a high off of being confusing. Given that I'm getting lynched, and nobody wants to get lynched in this setup, your argument falls apart instantly. /dunked Seriously though I'd do more but I'm at dinner, I'll get back in 9 hours and wow you | ||
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On June 20 2014 07:00 Snickers wrote: When I look at the thread 4 to 5 hours from now and I continue seeing dumbness. I'm going to make one more post to vote someone then afk till lynch. I already contributed enough , especially compared to some players. ##vote snickers reasons reasons reasons etc etc pretend I wrote something awesome | ||
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On June 20 2014 17:33 Artanis[Xp] wrote: BH, do you believe you're playing towards your win condition? Ok, clearly you don't understand my dinner joke. When I say I'm away at dinner, what I really mean is, "I have IRL reasons for not being at the thread right now." Most of my posting for the past 48 hours has been via phone. Since I am completely and totally willing to lie about being afk as scum, I don't bother explaining why I'm AFK as town. Instead I just say I'm at dinner. If you want me to give details about WHY I have been mostly afk for 48 hours, I'll be glad to provide you with them, but let's be real here: I have lied about reasons for being AFK before as scum. I am 100% willing to say that I got dumped by my gf, or my mom died, or I had a work emergency, or WHATEVER to not get lynched as scum. I've done it before. I've pretended to have mental breakdowns. I've pretended that I don't believe in myself any more. I've pretended that I am busy with work 12 hours a day due to a deadline. So here's what I'll tell you: if I am town, I have had a good reason to be very very low activity for 48 hours. If you want me to share that reason, feel free to ask, but the reason is MEANINGLESS because I am the one player on TL who notoriously ruthlessly lies about IRL things. Hilariously enough, I wish I didn't lie about IRL things when I was scum, because it would make a situation like this easier for me, but I can't not use that move as scum, because not using every tactic available to me would be playing against my win condition when I roll scum. So, Artanis[Xp], not only am I playing towards my wincon, I'm one of the few people who really does. Do you still want my story? I'm busy trying to form reads and catch up seriously on 48 hours of thread. I need to reread how the D1 wagons formed. If I don't solve this problem, I get lynched. So, tell me, do you have a better question for me? | ||
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On June 20 2014 18:01 Artanis[Xp] wrote: That's all I needed to know. You've spent the very little time you've had cracking jokes and making that post rather than trying to do anything useful. ##vote YouKnowZhou I don't understand your reasoning. Please state it more plainly, I don't have time to parse your posts while also rereading the thread. | ||
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On June 20 2014 18:05 Artanis[Xp] wrote: A) You've had very little time to spend on the thread, presumably since the end of Day 1 as you did post a decent bit before that. B) You've spent it making promises or arguing about things that are not related to catching mafia or getting reads. C) You claim to not be playing against your win condition. B and C are contradictory if your alignment is in fact town. What promises? Please be specific. A link or a quote would be acceptable. I believe I promised I'd return to the thread around now after dinner and make a case. I'm in the process of doing that. If I made other promises besides that, I hereby rescind those promises as communist lies. | ||
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On June 20 2014 18:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Yeah, that counts under making promises. I don't understand why you keep spending time replying to these posts if your time is limited. It's not helping me get a read on you, and I doubt it's helping you get a read on me. Get to your supposedly legendary case. Limiting factor on my case-writing isn't the bandwidth of my fingers, it's my processing power, and honestly when you ask me questions I feel a strong urge to respond. Also, what, do you expect me to NOT respond to your questions? If you want, I can ignore you, but people typically don't like that. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
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YKZ, Artanis, mderg, Chez, Koshi, Sloosh, GK with counterrwagons YKZ with one vote (Release) and mderg with 4 votes (snickers, VE, 27nb, Lazermonkey) GK was shot overnight and generally the thread has died since then. Given the majority with which 27nb was lynched, we can reasonably conclude that even if mderg is in fact scum, scum wouldn't have to all vote for 27nb to save mderg. Still, we should take a look at what happened in the time leading up to the 27nb lynch to get an idea of which votes made sense and which didn't. I'm going to exclude GK from this analysis, since he died, and myself, since I think everyone is pretty clear on my stated motivations for this lynch. In terms of major pivots on the 27nb case, it begins with my KPR case early in the day, and is augmented with a pbp analysis (link) a few hours before the deadline. Before the pbp analysis, the only voter is mderg. He voted in his first post, about halfway through Day 1 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=12#231(link) that was noteworthy for being generally unfocused. His other statements in that post are YKZ Town, Snickers strange, pre-flip assoc is bad, Release is non-perfect, sloosh is town, artanis case on release makes sense but sloosh case on him also made sense blah blah. He's giving lots of opinions and spends not a huge amount of time on his vote target, bunnies. I'd also like to add some lines from his inital post here, the post in which he votes bunnies. The whole thing with YKZ and bunnies is really strange. It feels like they´re both wrong, bunnies more so thab YKZ, though. I don´t think bunnies case was well substantiated at all, scumslips just almost never happen in forum mafia. I also don´t think the Kenpachi rule is as foolproof as YKZ said. It has some solid reasoning behind it but claiming that it always works seems stupid. They´ve kinda been repeating themselves quite often, so there´s not that much to get from this. ... So I think out of bunnies and YKZ only bunnies can really be scum. It certainly is possible. Especially the heavy focus on YKZ´s "scumslip" seems suspicious. Not calling out YKZ´s scummy posts is not really alignment indicative. Not immediately noticing things that might look scummy to some can happen as both alignments. I also dislike how she agrees with Artanis that Release is scummy but doesn´t think he´s scum because she wants to be right about YKZ and her association read. ... ##vote 27ninjabunnies I'm sure others have pointed this out, but take a look at what's going on in this post. First off, mderg talks a LOT about how 27nb is probably not scum, and neither am I. If you didn't see his vote there at the bottom of the post, and just read the post itself, you would have NO IDEA that he was voting 27nb. Here, try reading his post without the ##vote at the bottom. What does it sounds like to you? + Show Spoiler + On June 17 2014 09:11 mderg wrote: I almost forgot about this due to the world cup  The whole thing with YKZ and bunnies is really strange. It feels like they´re both wrong, bunnies more so thab YKZ, though. I don´t think bunnies case was well substantiated at all, scumslips just almost never happen in forum mafia. I also don´t think the Kenpachi rule is as foolproof as YKZ said. It has some solid reasoning behind it but claiming that it always works seems stupid. They´ve kinda been repeating themselves quite often, so there´s not that much to get from this. I think YKZ is town because of the follow up on bunnies I don´t think scum would so blatantly say that he acted scummy and someone should have pointed it out. This feels like a trap made by town. He´s also claimed vt early on which I find weird but unlikely to be scum play. So I think out of bunnies and YKZ only bunnies can really be scum. It certainly is possible. Especially the heavy focus on YKZ´s "scumslip" seems suspicious. Not calling out YKZ´s scummy posts is not really alignment indicative. Not immediately noticing things that might look scummy to some can happen as both alignments. I also dislike how she agrees with Artanis that Release is scummy but doesn´t think he´s scum because she wants to be right about YKZ and her association read. It also feels like townreading Artanis is some kind of "You´re scumreading me, so I´ll townread you". I think Snickers has been posting strangely. As if he wanted to play the newbie card without stating that he´s new. His general thought process doesn´t show a scum mindset, though. I didn´t really like where he talked about associations between bunnies and VKZ. IMO pre-flip associations are bad most of the time. Release had a not so perfect entrance to this thread. At first glance his case on YKZ seemed good but it basically comes down to the few points bunnies has made on YKZ and that he stuck to the Kenpachi rule for so long. That´s not very much considering the length of his posts. What kinda speaks in his favor is how suddenly several people jumped on him after Artanis made his case on him. Still kinda neutral on him, maybe a bit scummy. I´m having a townread on sloosh right now. Mainly because his posting feels different from Detention where we were scum together. He´s asking questions and seems to be trying to get behind the reasons from the others. I think Artanis´case on Release made sense but slooshs case on him also made sense even though it´s not that strong. The fact that he almost completely ignored the back and forth between YKZ and bunnies is slightly suspicious. But it´s true that the back and forth was repetitive and I don´t think there was anything that´s really scummy in it. I agree with his reason for scumreading bunnies, it´s something I´m also sumreading her for. Slight townread on him. Not much on the others, yet. I´ll hopefully post more tomorrow. Yeah, if you read that, you don't think "I guess he probably votes bunnies at the end there, that makes sense to me". No, you don't think that at all. Not even a LITTLE bit. There's nothign that even remotely a case on bunnies there. And look at his response to people attacking him after this: On June 18 2014 05:38 mderg wrote: I was pretty heavily leaning scum on bunnies, so voting her seems logical, doesn´t it? I was also pretty sure that I´d be here today, just not how much time I could invest. On June 18 2014 06:42 mderg wrote: My vote stays on bunnies today. Nothing today that changed my mind and I need some sleep now. We should definitely look into VE and Snickers, though. He was NOT leaning scum on bunnies. He acted like he thought both me and bunnies were town (which of course scum would know). He never actually writes a case on bunnies. He defends himself a bit sporadically and doesn't elaborate on his case on bunnies, and it's noteworthy that although he claims a townread on me, he doesn't defend me, the vote leader, during D2. His vote on 27nb and general defense afterwards are a pretty low tier D1, and he doesn't justify the vote, or his case on VE today, well at all. I wonder if he was not anticipating me looking so bad today, and now he's in a tough position of wanting to vote a townie on the block, but not being able to, since he "townreads" me. This would explain the lack of defense, and the fact that he has barely posted in the last 36 hours except to townread me then ask if I play like this usually. I'd characterise mderg's play as disinterested and unfocused. An acceptable lynch for these reasons, especially the lack of staking out a solid defense (or even a solid "I changed my mind on this") post on me since, basically any time since his initial townread on em. Take a look at his "case" on bunnies. In his filter, it's clear that the bunnies vote doesn't come from the thoughts he posted in the thread. Probably he was just posting a reads thing to look good as scum, and one of his scumbuddies reminded him he needed to vote. Like shit, man, who forgets to call someone scum or write a case? He even acts like he was leaning scum on bunnies or he had some sort of reason, even after he explicitly calls my case on bunnies unconvincing IN THE POST THAT HE VOTES BUNNIES IN. I don't even need to read the other votes up (though I will, in due time) because if you look at mderg, the way he voted bunnies is in no way related to a town thought process. Take a look at the spoilered quote, his vote post (at the time his only post in the thread) with the ##vote taken out. There's NO WAY the ##vote follows from that post. It's out of place because he doesn't have an actually town scumhunting and thought process to refer to. He's scum. ##unvote ##vote mderg Q: I am lazy and dont' want to read your long post. A: read this spoilered post by mderg, his first post, and his only voting post from D1. I have removed the ##vote from it, and reading it, you have no freaking clue that he's gonna vote 27nb. It looks like he's townreading 27nb. And then he votes her. He is scum. I have boldfaced the parts in which he refers to bunnies as town. + Show Spoiler + On June 17 2014 09:11 mderg wrote: I almost forgot about this due to the world cup The whole thing with YKZ and bunnies is really strange. It feels like they´re both wrong [about each other being scum], bunnies more so thab YKZ, though. I don´t think bunnies case was well substantiated at all, scumslips just almost never happen in forum mafia. I also don´t think the Kenpachi rule is as foolproof as YKZ said. It has some solid reasoning behind it but claiming that it always works seems stupid. They´ve kinda been repeating themselves quite often, so there´s not that much to get from this. I think YKZ is town because of the follow up on bunnies I don´t think scum would so blatantly say that he acted scummy and someone should have pointed it out. This feels like a trap made by town. He´s also claimed vt early on which I find weird but unlikely to be scum play. So I think out of bunnies and YKZ only bunnies can really be scum. It certainly is possible. Especially the heavy focus on YKZ´s "scumslip" seems suspicious. Not calling out YKZ´s scummy posts is not really alignment indicative. Not immediately noticing things that might look scummy to some can happen as both alignments. I also dislike how she agrees with Artanis that Release is scummy but doesn´t think he´s scum because she wants to be right about YKZ and her association read. It also feels like townreading Artanis is some kind of "You´re scumreading me, so I´ll townread you". I think Snickers has been posting strangely. As if he wanted to play the newbie card without stating that he´s new. His general thought process doesn´t show a scum mindset, though. I didn´t really like where he talked about associations between bunnies and VKZ. IMO pre-flip associations are bad most of the time. Release had a not so perfect entrance to this thread. At first glance his case on YKZ seemed good but it basically comes down to the few points bunnies has made on YKZ and that he stuck to the Kenpachi rule for so long. That´s not very much considering the length of his posts. What kinda speaks in his favor is how suddenly several people jumped on him after Artanis made his case on him. Still kinda neutral on him, maybe a bit scummy. I´m having a townread on sloosh right now. Mainly because his posting feels different from Detention where we were scum together. He´s asking questions and seems to be trying to get behind the reasons from the others. I think Artanis´case on Release made sense but slooshs case on him also made sense even though it´s not that strong. The fact that he almost completely ignored the back and forth between YKZ and bunnies is slightly suspicious. But it´s true that the back and forth was repetitive and I don´t think there was anything that´s really scummy in it. I agree with his reason for scumreading bunnies, it´s something I´m also sumreading her for. Slight townread on him. Not much on the others, yet. I´ll hopefully post more tomorrow. ##vote ??? | ||
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On June 20 2014 18:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote: slOosh, you were scumbuddies with mderg in Detention. Do you feel he's playing similarly in this game? BH, you were the host that game. What do you recall of his play and do you see similarities? What do you think of my case? | ||
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I note immediately he's making a lot more small posts, which is different. I'm guessing that's a function of the world cup happening now. Other than that I really don't have time to read a freaking filter from a different game. When I host I just make sure my players are 1) not eating each other alive and 2) active. I don't do damn analysis except for on British Empire Mini Mafia II which will TOTALLY HAPPEN I PROMISE | ||
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On June 20 2014 18:56 Artanis[Xp] wrote: It's made me heavily doubt mderg's alignment, but it hasn't convinced me yet, ergo I'm looking for how he usually plays as scum/town for comparison. Yeah, we're gonna have a problem with that then. I generally only use meta when it supports my case, and now that I'm looking at his filter in detention, it looks like the issue here (he forgot that he was townreading 27nb and then voted her for no reason) didn't happen there. I am not making a behavioral analysis on mderg, but it's not exactly a scumslip case either. It's a case based on the fact that his train of thought really does NOT make sense. In Detention Mafia he has some scumtells and some nonsensical things he says, but nothing like this. I do think he's still scum though despite that. I attribute the change in playing style (conversational in Detention, non-conversational here) to World Cup. | ||
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In Detention as scum mderg posts this: On May 28 2014 06:33 mderg wrote: this post seems honest to me. I don´t think anyone would make this defense, if it wasn´t actually the truth. It´s just too far of from anything I would have expected as defense. to defend a town player who's under fire. It's a great defense-of-town post for a scum player to make, because it wont' convince anyone, but it's the kind of thing you can say about anyone who's scummy and still kinda be true, and you'll get credit for being right after the fact. Now check out his post on me this game: On June 20 2014 18:30 mderg wrote: I´m not sure what to think of bh. I did read him as town but over the last days I didn´t get the impression that he was really trying to help town here which would normally lead me to believe he´s scum. But he has put himself so much into the spotlight in an obviously negative way that I find it hard to believe he could be scum. I guess I have to wait for his awesome case. It's the same logic. He sees a townie under fire and tries to get some credit by playing the "this play is too honest and brazen to be scum, look how scummy it is, he must be town" card. In my opinion, all though this does not on its own make mderg scum, it fits into his pattern of play as a scum player. Who else defends me in a situation like this (besides goodkarma, who scum conveniently shot?). Yes, he is setting himself up for towncred... ^--- I can pick out like 10+ things like this comparing ANY TWO FILTERS and make a meta case. I'm that good. Like, if you want, I'll do it for mderg. But it doesn't mean anything that I can do it, except that I'm good at it. | ||
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I generally agree, with the caveat that you should vote mderg, not ykz. Of course, the 2 people on the Koshi wagon would probably argue that their wagon is a "main wagon" as well. On June 20 2014 19:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote: BH, I'm not a newbie player. I know that similarities does not necessarily mean the same alignment, but previous games can give you insights into their mind. Particularly a scum qt can be enlightening. It told me mderg is someone that thinks before he posts as scum, which is a point against him being scum this game. I'm not up for a mderg lynch at this point in time. I am up for a Koshi lynch though. ##Unvote ##Vote Koshi I would note that the "mderg made a mistake" thing isn't the only difference that happened this game. Look at the actual filters themselves. In detention, as scum, mderg is conversational, active, posting a lot, and generally going back and forth with the town a lot. In this game he has fewer, bigger posts with large gaps between them. Why don't you mention this? You don't mention this because you know as well as I do the the change in amount of content and amount of conversationalism from mderg is a symptom of him watching the world cup (or whatever it is he's doing) and having less time for mafia. Of course, if he has less time for mafia, as scum he'd be far more prone to mistakes, and he'd make mistakes he didn't make in detention mafia, like forgetting who he was townreading in the same post as his vote post. The fact of the matter is, even setting aside that particular piece of meta, and even saying "mderg doesn't normally do this as scum" about his play this game, there's no way that the post I'm talking about comes from a town player. Is it like, a little weird that mderg would make such a screw up as scum? Sure, he didn't screw up the same way last game, when he had a LOT more time to play. But you know what explanation makes even LESS sense? It would make much less sense if he were town. Read that post again, and ask yourself, "does a 27nb vote make sense at the end of this post?" the answer is no, it does not make sense. mderg is scum. | ||
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On June 21 2014 04:28 Chezinu wrote: Love it's all about love and friendship. What do you think about lazermonkey? How do you feel about being spare for the sake of being a replacement? Imo it makes sense to give replacements a full cycle to get into the game and contribute. Let Koshi live for today. What do you think about mderg? | ||
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On June 21 2014 05:20 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I thought his case was pretty decent. I feel like my reads are utter shit this game though, so just gonna go and sheep you. ##Unvote ##Vote YouKnowZhou After I flip, lynch Artanis[Xp] just for this post, honestly. I'd consider him after mderg but before snickers. | ||
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On June 21 2014 05:48 slOosh wrote: Could I get your thoughts on VE please? I was legit gonna just give you a flippant response, because it's hilarious, but you DID say please so I can't let you down. About his activity today, he's mostly posted a large case on Mderg, called me scummy ish, then voted me but not mderg despite my amazing case on mderg, to which he has not actually responded. He also seems to be defending the intelligence of the scumteam (link), which makes me think he could be scum, especially since VE doesn't think I'm smarter than him. He's been unusually unuseful this game, but honestly I consider mderg's earlier shit to be substantially worse. VE is reasonably likely to be shot for bluehunting/vetshooting reasons, so I'd give him another day. I'd vote him if it was him or me of course, but i don't consider him a priority. The other thing that sticks out is him refusing to read me, then giving me a scumread when I'm AFK for a while. Very opportunistic, but honestly VE is not very smart and could have come to that conclusion based on my inactivity. There are plenty of people just voting me because I'm kinda a dick rather than actual scumhunting reasons, which will make it tough to actually catch scum on my wagon if I do end up flipping today. Since mderg wasn't in any real danger of getting lynched over 27nb, the townie, it also ties in with VE's relaxed D1. No need to throw your hat into the ring or give a read on BH if your'e scum and there's a mislynch train rolling. All this though is substantially shakier than the mderg read. Nothing here screams scum, just a few things whispering it. I'd rather we lynch Mderg. | ||
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On June 21 2014 06:02 Lazermonkey wrote: Please look at Koshi's filter and look ät all thé scum hunting he has done... Owait. Vote him. As a matter of policy, I do not lynch players right after they replace in. I leave them alone for a full cycle. I find this typically works pretty well; people need time to get their shit together usually. | ||
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On June 21 2014 06:05 VisceraEyes wrote: I like how BH didn't even SAY what he thinks about me in spite of writing two whole paragraphs on it. This lynch is fucking amazing. Not a good lynch today. | ||
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If you're voting me, treat me as conftown and let's discuss the next lynch. What do you think of mderg? | ||
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On June 19 2014 20:40 VisceraEyes wrote: Ready To Read BH Yet? Meeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhh........................I think he might be mafia. He hasn't had any direct interactions with me due to timing and our respective AFK periods, but frankly the bunnies push felt contrived to begin with, and that he stuck with it only to see her flip green raises red flags to me. He makes a special point to say how GODLY he is at Mafia too, insinuating how BAD he is at town right? Sounds like preknowledge of his main target's flip to me. It's a weak read, but he's my worst read. I put it off because I was scurd, but now I might get lynched and it doesn't matter if I scurd anymore. I think he's mafia based on what's in the thread. Does this accurately summarize your reason for scumreading me? Also, can you be specific about who you like and don't like on the wagons? | ||
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On June 20 2014 22:56 Lazermonkey wrote: This is also a good point brought up. Everyone that is voting mderg should explain why they vote him very very clearly and why the reason you vote him makes him scum. Explain how that action isn't likely to have come out of a newbie town player also. Lazermonkey, is this the big reason you are not voting mderg? What about the fact that he's clearly busier this game, does that negate that statement for you? Do you still read him as "confused townie"? Are you still "slightly scummy" on me? Why or why not? | ||
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On June 21 2014 06:49 VisceraEyes wrote: What do you care? I'm too stupid to be reasoned with. Come on, man, I'm gonna get lynched anyways, just answer the question so I can develop some reads before I flip. I don't want to leave nothing behind when I become conftown. Don't be a dick. | ||
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On June 21 2014 06:50 Release wrote: YKZ, you say that mderg was unfocused which I believe is accurate. However, you say "If you didn't see his vote there at the bottom of the post, and just read the post itself, you would have NO IDEA that he was voting 27nb." For whom do you think he should have voted considering what he says in his posts? He doesn't give a real scumread in his post. If you remove the ##vote from the post it actually makes more sense. He shouldn't have considered voting anyone based on what he wrote. Take a look at the post without the ##vote 27nb, and you realize that the##vote 27nb doesn't actually make sense. | ||
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On June 21 2014 06:54 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Looking at the first post Release quoted of Snickers, it reminds me of mderg's post but it looks worse to me. Mderg's post mentioned all relevant posts whereas Snickers goes off giving null reads on people who hardly posted so far. What's also interesting is how Snickers changed his read on you after momentum swung in favour of that read, with VE and goodkarma chiming in, which is mighty coincidental. It's unfortunate that he's a smurf/new player so I can't check meta As I mentioned, I do want to lynch Snickers. I like the Release case but I doubt there's any real way to make Snickers happen over me today. I'd prefer mderg; I think he's more likely to flip town; but the inconsistencies that Release has pointed out make Snickers a more acceptable lynch today. Artanis, would you lynch Snickers today? | ||
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Even with the two of us together, it's just 2 votes on Snicks, which isn't any better than the 2 votes on mderg, whom I would rather lynch. Release isn't voting Snicks, so I'd rather keep my vote on mderg. If it turns out lynching Snicks becomes a real possibilty (ie Release votes him etc) then I'm on board, but until then I think mderg is a better choice. I'll see if I can find stuff in mderg's later filter that might be more convincing. Aside from the fact that it seems mderg wouldn't make this mistake as scum since he was more careful in the previous game, do you have any other hesitations about him being scum? Or is the case itself just not convincing enough, hesitations nonwithstanding? | ||
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On June 21 2014 07:10 Artanis[Xp] wrote: There's been a lot of things that made me think of mderg as town. The way he had the same idea about 27nb's reasons for reading me as town, the meta, the way he commented on all relevant things when he entered the thread and got straight to the point all felt townie to me. From the two games I read of him, I felt he played worse when he was town than when he was scum. I don't feel the current cases are convincing of him being scum, but rather of him playing poorly, which I would sooner attribute to him being town. The carefulness factors into that. I understand what your'e getting at, though I won't pretend I am convinced. I'm willing to get on board with a Snickers wagon, he's my second favorite lynch choice and if it saves me, it saves me. The mderg case isn't perfect, and the biggest imperfection is the 2 factor change in meta from last game (carefulness, conversationalism) when he was scum. I chaulk this up to him being busy with world cup, but I will admit that the "he's actually town" explanation is in fact plausible. I also think some of the stuff snickers has done (ie peacing out, claiming he has 'contributed enough for the day') really raises my hackles. He has contributed less, and in a way is objectively more scummy than mderg because of how he addresses people (giving out nullreads, etc). If it weren't for mderg's nonsensical vote I'd be on snickers (as I was earlier today). I still think, however, that the nonsensical vote counts for something. It feels like a 'scumslip' argument, but I don't really think it is. It's about whether or not you'd really have a coherent thought process through your post as town or scum. You say he's a careful guy, more careful as scum than as town, and this is often the case. I know it's the case for me. IT's why scumslips are generally false arguments. I think this vote is more about revealing his intentions and the integrity of his thought process. It's not about caution or brazneness. but about whether or not he's thinking through the thoughts he puts into his posts. | ||
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On June 21 2014 07:20 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I can tell from the way he's interacted with slOosh in his filter why he does. He's also made it explicit why he likes Release. I'm not sure how he got the initial reads of me being towny and those two being scummy though as he flipped all three of those reads throughout the day in a very linear fashion, but I'm willing to scribble that up to not reading properly the first time around. I think we can definitively say that VE during his first pass of the thread wasn't paying a huge amount of attention (ex: the confusion about YKZ/BH). | ||
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Also, I'm having trouble finding a mention of my case on mderg in your filter. Can you point me towwards it, or offer some input? On June 21 2014 07:08 Lazermonkey wrote: Its been a full cycle now. Not even kidding. I know, but I consider him to have replaced in at the 27nb lynch. He didn't really have time to formulate reads or do anything D1. After D2 ends, then he's fair game, but that's just the policy I roll with. It works. It could entirely be true that Koshi is scum, but on the whole it makes sense to not lynch people for a full cycle after they get in, and that doesn't mean "not lynch him until 3 hours before the end of the day, then lynch him" because that's BSey. The point is, the guy gets a free pass on a lynch for one day. I understand you disagree, but don't worry, Koshi isn't getting lynched today anyways. Once I'm gone, who will oppose you? | ||
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On June 21 2014 07:22 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I am not afraid of getting lynched at all. I've never gotten mislynched as town before, it's not happening now. Speaking of which, BH, do you still want me lynched for that one post? Hilariously enough, you utterly abdicating critical thinking responsibility for your vote on me does not even put you in my top 4 scumreads right now. I wish it did. But it doesn't. What a game! Barring some changes, you're probably not in my list of "lynch these people first" that I'll leave when I die. | ||
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On June 21 2014 07:26 Chezinu wrote: Why would I read cases? Who do you think I am? super duper chezinu tier tldr mderg's first post is a bunch of relevant townreads. he votes a townread in that post, 27nb. what do you think of mderg | ||
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okay. snickers does the same thing, but with nullreads. then he votes and peaces out of the thread d2. what do you think of snickers | ||
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bad but not scum? | ||
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##unvote ##vote Snickers | ||
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On June 21 2014 07:55 mderg wrote: I can definitely get behind a Snickers lynch. Since VE is will not be lynched today my vote on him would just be wasted. I don´t want bh to be lynched either because I had a townread on him and, he´s not as townie to me anymore but he is driving discussion forward. Snickers on the other hand I´ve found suspicious for some time. The case Release made is also bringing up some good points. This seems like a way better lynch than bh. ##vote Snickers your approval fills me with shame.  On June 21 2014 07:56 Chezinu wrote: mderg vs VE would give the most information to me personally. I still haven't solved the puzzle. mderg is just bad though in your opinion, right? How would it give you more info? | ||
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On June 21 2014 08:08 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Release, what are your thoughts on mderg's vote just now? You had similar reservations to him being scummy as I did. I'll chime in. It makes me like mderg less. I still see him as opportunistic, and despite my thing about "no unflipped associations", I suddenly worry that mderg scum, snickers town and he's setting me up to get MLed tomorrow. mderg scum snickers scum might make sense as well if he's bussing / going for cred; his vote put snickers in the lead and was a "game changer". That said, I am no longer confident that I can lynch him today. People seem to like him. | ||
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On June 21 2014 08:21 Release wrote: I think the most important rule in mafia is to vote for mafia. His filter does not indicate an inclination for voting Snickers, which is why I think its awful, but not as awful as completely afking. His play gave us information. This information can be very easily used against him. To be honest, complete afk so blatantly is also information too. I think Mderg just shoved his way past YKZ on my scumlist, and now, I'm fine lynching Mderg or Snickers, but will still be voting snickers pending further information. Fair enough, but please be ready for an mderg consolidation if it turns out he and I are the leading wagons. If you're not able to consolidate onto mderg, with VE in the lead, I will vote for VE to get him lynched instead of me since any chance of lynching scum is better than none, but I'd much much rather lynch mderg or snicks today. Will you be around until the deadline? | ||
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On June 21 2014 08:24 Release wrote: Ok for some reason, YKZ is still being lynched today which is not correct. For that: ##Unvote ##Vote Mderg Works for me. Snickers would also be acceptable. I prefer either to VE. ##unvote ##vote mderg | ||
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On June 21 2014 08:43 Chezinu wrote: mderg, if you are special - now is the time to say it. If your just a regular townie, now is the time to accept your fate. or... he's scum? | ||
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On June 21 2014 08:48 VisceraEyes wrote: For someone who made a request of me to "get a read on me", BH seems to already be leaning fairly town on me. So why the appeal to emotion? And IF he thinks I'm town, what use is there for him to discredit me? Meh, questions for another day I suppose. I'll answer his questions, but for town and NOT for BH. BH is on my shitlist now. Indefinitely. Yes, it accurately summarizes my reasons for scumreading you. Specifically I like slOosh and Release on your wagon and I disliked Snickers and you on the mderg wagon. I'm not really reading Koshi as supertown yet which concerns me, but I dislike him less than I dislike you and Snickers. wow thanks for answering my questions only after like a million hours and after I explicitly called you out for it, and just before the lynch, and also only after it became clear I wasn't getting lynched. So helpful. I'd rather lynch mderg and snicks than you, VE, but since it seems you were here and just waiting for the least useful time to reply (rather than just be mean in response to my questions) all I gotta say is: if we could easily switch to you, I'd do it, and gladly. I don't even care that you're more likely to flip town than mderg or snicks, I just want to see you die. | ||
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On June 21 2014 08:52 VisceraEyes wrote: OH I'M FUCKING SORRY I HAD SHIT TO DO UNTIL RIGHT NOW BH, FOR SOMEONE WHO ATE DINNER FOR FORTYEIGHT HOURS YOU'RE REALLY GETTING BENT OUT OF SHAPE ABOUT THIS That post took you 30 seconds to right, tops. Instead of helping, you wrote this: On June 21 2014 06:49 VisceraEyes wrote: What do you care? I'm too stupid to be reasoned with. And then peaced until the MOST CONVENIENT possible time for you to be unhelpful. I sincerely hope you are scum, VE, because if you are town, this is possibly the most pitiful showing I've seen from you to date. You're usually such a strong player! We may not get along, but we interact and stuff. | ||
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On June 21 2014 08:56 VisceraEyes wrote: It's strong enough to lynch him over other people Artanis, that's about as certain as I can be. Same with mderg, but as I said before the people I'm townreading are more inclined to lynch BH. The difference between this lynch and the last was A) I wasn't around in the waning hours of the day last cycle and B) I'm not SUPER TOWN on the opposing wagon this cycle, in fact the opposite. So you have a townread on SloOsh and Snickers, the other two voters on my wagon? | ||
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On June 21 2014 08:58 VisceraEyes wrote: Release was on you earlier, that's who I was referring to. And now he's not. Now he's voting WITH me. And yeah, Sloosh you like, but you think snickers is scum On June 21 2014 08:48 VisceraEyes wrote: Specifically I like slOosh and Release on your wagon and I disliked Snickers and you on the mderg wagon. I'm not really reading Koshi as supertown yet which concerns me, but I dislike him less than I dislike you and Snickers. So what's the deal VE? Why me over mderg? Or are your explanations as fallacious as your timing? | ||
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he doesn't make sense. his timing is off. and his explanation for voting me over mderg clearly doesn't hold up | ||
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On June 21 2014 09:13 VisceraEyes wrote: Actually, this could make slOosh mafia. Anyway, I'm going to be utterly silent this cycle in the name of not destroying the thread screaming at BH. Don't go too crazy guys. Dude, I've been nothing but helpful since I returned to the thread. I'm sorry if I have aggravated you, I know I got a little heated back there. How about we bury the hatchet and try to interact meaningfully, rather than providing anyone an excuse to opt out of the discourse? Surely if you're town, you wouldn't mind a polite discussion with the town leader. | ||
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On June 21 2014 08:59 YouKnowZhou wrote: And now he's not. Now he's voting WITH me. And yeah, Sloosh you like, but you think snickers is scum So what's the deal VE? Why me over mderg? Or are your explanations as fallacious as your timing? If you're willing to extend to me the courtesy of assuming I'm town for a moment, let me explain what this lynch looked like to me. It looked like I had caught scum and finally forced town to accept it. You were hedghing your bets, calling both me and mderg scum. If you are in fact scum, this isn't a bad move. Now, things are close and it looks like you could get me lynched instead of your scumbuddy, so you vote me. You need a good reason, so you say you like the people on my wagon better. When I say "okay, fine, I'm getting lynched, let's interact a bit beforehand so I can develop reads and leave something for town", everyone interacts with me, except you, who snaps at me and goes afk. Now, finally I manage to convince people to lynch mderg. After it becomes clear my life is no longer in danger, you return to the thread and respond to my questions. You can no longer afford to just ignore me until the lynch deadline. Then, when I ask you about your vote on me, you talk about the people on my wagon. 1 of the 2 people you had a townread on is now voting with me instead of against me, and of the 2 people left, one of them is Snickers, on whom you have a scumread. And yet your vote stays on me. What this looks like to me is a poorly rationalized vote on the counterwagon to a scumbuddy. I think you were trying to defend mderg, kill me, and ignore my attempts to form reads until the lynch ended and I was dead. Then, when I turned things around, you came back to do damage control. It looks to me like you're scum with mderg. You had him pegged as scum and voted me instead of him, which would have been fine since you had me for scum, but your reasoning didn't add up, and your timing was very, very oppotunistic. So here's my question for you, VE. Do you see how I, as town, perceive this? What is your response to the issues I've raised in this post, issues to which you didn't respond in the previous post I raised them in? | ||
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So his vote makes at least a little sense from a town perspective and I do not see a scum motivation for it. | ||
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>I say I dont' remember that game >open up filter, find something to meta read to prove that meta read isn't valuable >get criticized for it mfw | ||
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Man, that didn't take like any time at all to do. Chill out. | ||
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I'd do it again, too, and you should all be glad I would. There's nothing I won't do to win this game. | ||
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On June 22 2014 07:10 Artanis[Xp] wrote: We lynched who I wanted to lynch though. Both times. OK you get to be Prime Minister, but I'm clearly the President, cause I never made a post like this: On June 21 2014 05:20 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I thought his case was pretty decent. I feel like my reads are utter shit this game though, so just gonna go and sheep you. ##Unvote ##Vote YouKnowZhou So one of us has shown great leadership (me) and is therefore clearly a member of the executive branch. I gotta give you credit for eventually doing my bidding and corralling votes, but my confidence and executive style really means I'm Mr. President. | ||
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On June 22 2014 07:17 slOosh wrote: Convenient that YKZ is interested in popping in to defend himself, but not at all in coming up with scum reads. In any case my case can be summarized as "YKZ didn't really want to lynch mderg D2". You guys can reread D2 for yourselves and decide if it's true or I'm making stuff up. If anyone has questions for me, I'll answer them, but in order to avoid getting shot or not shot strategically, my cases will all come just before deadline. :D | ||
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On June 22 2014 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Do explain me how you were right on two lynches in a row when one of them flipped town. Well, 2 ways. First, 27nb was objectively scummy so the lynch on her was objectively good (link), even if it SO HAPPENED that she flipped town this time. I'm sure you, who wrote the same case as I did write after I did (link), would agree that 27nb needed to be lynched. We did what was necessary. Secondly, both times the person I wanted to lynch got lynched, and might makes right . Town following my lead is objectively correct. | ||
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On June 22 2014 07:38 YouKnowZhou wrote: Well, 2 ways. First, 27nb was objectively scummy so the lynch on her was objectively good (link), even if it SO HAPPENED that she flipped town this time. I'm sure you, who wrote the same case as I did write after I did (link), would agree that 27nb needed to be lynched. We did what was necessary. Secondly, both times the person I wanted to lynch got lynched, and might makes right . Town following my lead is objectively correct.EBWOP | ||
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On June 22 2014 07:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I'm going to estimate the chance of this being similar to the chance of England winning this year's world cup. Snickers is probably going to be targeted by... a cop check, or a vigi shot if for some reason we have one. But certainly not by scum. | ||
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On June 22 2014 07:59 Artanis[Xp] wrote: No, no no no no no. Snickers is town. Cop checks or vigi shots would be wasted on him. There are much much better targets. Honestly, if people think I'm scum it would be better if the cop would check me, were it not for peoples' opinion of me. Since I claimed VT D1, though, I'm sure this request will result in noises from the usual suspects that I'm the Godfather and I chose VT or some other ridiculousness. Even if the cop claimed just before deadline and said "bh is green" or something and then got shot and flipped cop, people would still make noises that I'm playing some kind of really long game with all kinds of amazing plans that result in all this happening. In a way, I'm gratified that people think this of my scumgame, but it is at times annoying. | ||
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1. Lazermonkey is probably not scum for his vote on me at the deadline. My arguments are here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22414143 but basically it boils down to the fact that scum have nothing to gain from this move. His last minute vote doesn't further a scum agenda. Now, the alternative is that it reveals a scum mindset, but I don't see that either. As scum you don't feel a need to make a last-minute vote that's literally of no consequence. Town may feel an irrational need to "consolidate" even if it does nothing, and I think that explains his motivations better. Remember, there's almost NO time between his vote and the deadline, I was barely barely able to sneak in a post saying that if his vote hammered me, he should be read into. But his vote didn't hammer me, couldn't have hammered me, and could have only looked bad. 2. Koshi should not be lynched during D2, probably. His reads in this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=40#790 are fairly crappy but look at what he's doing. He's analyzing Lazermo's vote pattern. His read on sloosh isn't great but taking time to talk about inconsistencies in of all things, consolidation, indicates to me that Koshi is making an effort at trying to understand Lazermo. Reading this post made me say "lazermonkey is probably not scum" instead of "lazermonkey is not scum" in the previous paragraph. That and his interaction with Lazermo during D2 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=30#599 make me think that he is in fact genuinely trying to figure out the game. I don't like that his filter doesn't have a hyooj amount of content but people trying to lynch Koshi should be aware there are more likelty targers. 3. VE should not be left off the hook. Remember, during the time when I was trying to get in a last set of reads (sorta) before getting lynched, when I was chipping in an we were having real discussion? Suddenly, VE is "angry" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=33#651 and afks until right before the deadline. I explain how VE's actions during the last few hours of D2 are pretty clearly scum-motivated here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=38#758 . His response is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#762 Take a look at how he responds. He talks about sloosh looking good, and leaves out the fact that I have had to prod him multiple times over everything, doesn't address the fact that his reasoning was that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and disliked snickers and me on mderg: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721 Remember, later on, when VE is in the thread, Release, one of the two guys he likes, is on mderg, and Snickers, one of the guys he doesn't like, is on me. So, he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). It is, however, more convenient, just like VE's fake anger (until he got called out for it and realized I was being super reasonable), or VE's afking right after I start engaging my thread, up until riight before the deadline. In fact, it's also interesting that he tries to shut down snickers' posting here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#766 but hey, dont' worry guys, after he gets called out, half an hour later VE says it was a joke. Of course, I don't see ANYTHING joking about that read at all, so I guess I'm missing something, but it's awfully convenient http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22411055. Also, note that VE was pretending to be mad at me up until he realized it was looking bad, then decided to stop being mad at me just long enough to address the case I made against him. All these convenient afks, fake anger, and convenient "jokes" telling people to stop engaging the thread are all things that VE has tried to brush off, but this coupled with VE's low contribution amount this game (don't look at his filter size-- even though he has 3 pages he has spent a lot of it being afk or pretending to be mad at me) it's basically clear he's scum. 4. not snickers, ve first sorry out of time | ||
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On June 22 2014 08:59 VisceraEyes wrote: In fact if a vigi wants to shoot me that would really help out town a lot probably because I'm so stupid and scummy. oh how martyr, how too late, clearly VE scum | ||
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I'll have something together on my top scumread, whether that's VE or no, in a couple hours. In the meantime, I'm available for questions and will weigh on anything or anyone that you guys want. I'm going to sit down with D2 wagons and examine flips, then read filters, but I'll be checking recent posts in thread as well. | ||
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On June 23 2014 07:17 slOosh wrote: So Lazer, mderg started N1 / D2 with scum reads on VE and Snickers, and that's what he went with. Could you explain your interpretation of this scum strategies? I've been having some trouble articulating my thoughts on this as well. So, when I do association, I try in general to do it the other way. If we look at flipped scum mderg, here's what we see: It's noteworthy that mderg scumreads VE (link) and votes him, and only votes me when it's clear only mderg or I can be lynched D2. That being said, in my opinion the most valuable associative tells are not based on what the flipped mafia did, but what other people did TO the flipped mafia before the flip. As I have mentioned before (link), this is a much more valuable form of information. The dying scum's goal is typically to throw off town and make it difficult to find his allies after he flips. this isn't to say there isn't info to be gained from mderg's filter, but the info to be gained from how other people interacted with him is much greater, in general. | ||
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So, I made some noises (link) about the possibility of VE being town earlier. However, having taken a look a the facts, I do not believe the fact that VE backed off from me should significantly impact my read on him. I initially thought the backing-off may be deserving of a townread since a scum VE could potentially get me lynched with effort, and the "fake anger" strategy was working well. However, I believe I was selling short how good a job I had done of appearing co-operative. I had made it so even a scum VE would have to tone down the anger, would have to not ratchet things up and continue yelling at me. I'm going to refer to my end-of-day case here, so please read it: (link). VE has not since responded to it, and I'm going to address his semi-responses and cast a vote on VE. I'm also going to talk about the posts he has made since I made that post, at the very last moments of the night. The relevant part is here: On June 22 2014 08:59 YouKnowZhou wrote: 3. VE should not be left off the hook. Remember, during the time when I was trying to get in a last set of reads (sorta) before getting lynched, when I was chipping in an we were having real discussion? Suddenly, VE is "angry" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=33#651 and afks until right before the deadline. I explain how VE's actions during the last few hours of D2 are pretty clearly scum-motivated here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=38#758 . His response is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#762 Take a look at how he responds. He talks about sloosh looking good, and leaves out the fact that I have had to prod him multiple times over everything, doesn't address the fact that his reasoning was that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and disliked snickers and me on mderg: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721 Remember, later on, when VE is in the thread, Release, one of the two guys he likes, is on mderg, and Snickers, one of the guys he doesn't like, is on me. So, he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). It is, however, more convenient, just like VE's fake anger (until he got called out for it and realized I was being super reasonable), or VE's afking right after I start engaging my thread, up until riight before the deadline. In fact, it's also interesting that he tries to shut down snickers' posting here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#766 but hey, dont' worry guys, after he gets called out, half an hour later VE says it was a joke. Of course, I don't see ANYTHING joking about that read at all, so I guess I'm missing something, but it's awfully convenient http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22411055. Also, note that VE was pretending to be mad at me up until he realized it was looking bad, then decided to stop being mad at me just long enough to address the case I made against him. All these convenient afks, fake anger, and convenient "jokes" telling people to stop engaging the thread are all things that VE has tried to brush off, but this coupled with VE's low contribution amount this game (don't look at his filter size-- even though he has 3 pages he has spent a lot of it being afk or pretending to be mad at me) it's basically clear he's scum. First off, let's look at VE's "last minute" post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=828&topic_id=458796 This post, in which VE asks for a vigi shot, is in the very very last second of the night. I tried to make my post at the very last second before the deadline, but VE actually slipped this in between my post and the deadline. Now, you may think, "it makes sense for VE to ask to be shot. After all, maybe he's worried he'd get lynched as a townie and doesn't want to waste town's time". That's true, but look at the timing; there's absolutely no way that VE is going to get shot when he posts at that time, when it's too late for anyone to do anything. So what's the purpose? I can't find one other than "it makes VE look a tiny bit better", but honestly it's so see-through that the only thing I can think of is that VE is just trying to make noises that he thinks a townie would make, and he screwed up. Who asks for a vigi shot when it's too late for vigis to shoot? Remember, ve was in the thread about 10 minutes earlier (link) as well as throughout the night, he had plenty of time to ask for a shot and he didn't until it would make no difference. Next, VE retcons (link) how he was feeling about mderg during D2. It's true, VE made a scumread on mderg, but who was VE voting, even when his stated reasons for voting changed conditions? It was me, not mderg. Ve made all the noises about wanting to lynch mderg, and he even said that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and he wasn't voting mderg because Snickers and I were voting mderg. (link). Then, when release votes mderg and snickers votes ykz, VE stands by his vote. Remember, it was "2 townreads on the ykz wagon, 2 scumreads on the mderg wagon, that's my main reason here." When one of his townreads votes for mderg and one of his scumreads votes for me, what's the deal then VE? This has never adequately been explained, except when he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). So, VE made a lot of NOISE about being fine about the mderg wagon. I totally agree with him that he certainly liked to WRITE that he was fine about the mderg wagon. He definitely made up reasons that he voted me over mderg. But when those conditions changed, and his reasons didn't make sense any more, he didn't swap to mderg, or even try to re-evaluate. No, instead he "got mad" at me (link) and "happened" to be afk during the crucial time leading up to the lynch. But enough about D2; let's talk about D3. VE lays out his scumreads for today, which are me and Sloosh he says he's conflicted, and his heart says bh and his head says sloosh (link). He then asks for help. He doesn't have questions, he doesn't have cases to write. He doesn't ask me to clarify anything (Despite apparently now being cool with cooperating with me) and he doesn't try to address sloosh in any way. When artanis replies, VE responds by quoting his nk speculation in which he's telling me he's "giving me a pass" for D3. (link). This is in contradiction with his previous post, but I consider this contradiction to be a towntell rather than a scumtell. The issue with this post isn't that he contradicts himself (townies often do this) but that when someone offers an opinion, he just drops a quote and doesn't press on. Then, he just says "chez ur on the table today" (link) and it's like fairly clear at this point VE is just trying to figure out which way the wind is blowing. I'm amazed he hasn't made a koshi case yet . So here's where things get interesting. He's back onto the "gk kill means something" train (link) and trying to give himself credit for the mderg lynch again, but look at what he says about GK specificallyOn June 22 2014 10:17 VisceraEyes wrote: This was the post that solidified my read on mderg - he mentioned something I also noticed (and mentioned actually) and he ended up dying in the night. However beyond this you're right, at the end of the day he ended up on the "mderg town" side of things. :/ Frankly the only thing I can see GK being killed for is either a busted role-hunt or to implicate me somehow (he ended up scummy on me at the end of the day). Good to know. At this point, VE is not in fact looking at GK's post and trying to evaluate it for merit. He's not saying "i'm gonna read this case or post with fresh eyes, as though GK were still alive, since GK was shot and is conftown". Instead, he's focusing his opinion on the scum part of the thing, the fact that GK was killed. GK could be killed for all kinds of reasons, and it can be valuable to speculate about it at times, but look at VE here. He's not using dead GK as some kind of resource to read, looking at the cases and posts like someone who's townie would. Instead of looking for GK's logic, his mind goes to reasons scum would shoot GK. I consider this to be a minor point in comparison to the end-of-D2 stuff. But it's a point. Buddying me (link) but more importantly an attack on sloosh. Why defend a scumread, VE? He defends himself, but not against my case (link). The taking credit thing is clever and annoying but not on its own an issue. It's really wroth noting that the 2nd post, about original posts, is spot-on. During D2 VE is mostly just chucking out rando reads without following them up, probably looking to see what sticks before writing a case. After losing his partner, VE wants to not overstep his leadership, which means toning down the nasty and buddying with me, and being like water and changing his shape to fill the container. As I wrote this post, he decides to vote me and of course does not write or reference a case: (link) On June 23 2014 12:16 VisceraEyes wrote: slOosh do you still think BH is mafia? Release does. And I think I'm rescinding his pass for his BS last night. ##Vote: YouKnowZhou I'll just leave that post in which VE votes me with no explanation, next to this quote from VE just 10 hours earlier: On June 23 2014 02:42 VisceraEyes wrote: This isn't true at all, something HAS changed. THIS cycle instead of having only one townie tunnel on his resume, BH has now pushed and voted for scum. That HAS changed and you don't just get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without explaining why he does that as mderg's mafia partner. So I guess VE, besides all the points against you, something HAS changed. I have now pushed and voted for scum. You don't jsut get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without some explaining why I do that as mderg's mafia partner , in the words of a wise man. ##vote VisceraEyes | ||
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On June 23 2014 12:47 Snickers wrote: So i never even thought about that but YKZ how much do you think people will want to lynch you if we lynched VE and he turned town. This does not push the thread forward but I think it is interesting. Also this reminded me that i think you were going to comment on my play or something to that effect. Are you still going to or do you have more time demanding things. I can comment on your play if you'd like. I think you're putting effort in and are not my #1 scumread so I have very little interest in lynching you today. I don't care one whit how I look if I'm wrong, I'm lynching who I think is scum, and that's VE. If I lynch anyone else, I'm much less likely to hit scum. So, not relevant for 2 reasons, both of which are "my goal is to lynch scum, not appease dumb townies and opportunistic scum" | ||
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On June 23 2014 07:43 slOosh wrote: This is only true when the scum anticipates dying. mderg's vote against VE came early D2. It's categorically true as the correct way to read associative tells. You read what the people wrote about the flipped scum, not what the flipped scum wrote about people, because the quality of info is higher. You will read lots of townie opinions about the flipped scum, which aren't intentionally deceptive, rather than a bunch of opinions that are intended to mislead. I ALWAYS (take a look at my link in the quoted post) read what people wrote about the lynched scum, rather than vice versa. This is because this is the most reliable form of info and leads to good scumreads. What mderg said is dust; words are wind. Look at what was said ABOUT mderg. On June 23 2014 07:45 slOosh wrote: It was one directional, it that you explained why VE's actions fit a VE mderg scum team. I'm asking how mderg's actions, namely voting VE, makes sense in a VE mderg scum team. So the one-directionality of LM's analysis here is a feature, not a bug. Do you understand what i'm getting at here, and why my method of using associative tells has a much lower error rate? On June 23 2014 13:24 slOosh wrote: YKZ could I ask who your #2 scumread is? Yes. However, I am pretty unwilling to vote ANYONE but VE. I am not interested in discussing my secondary scumreads except to appear helpful to other townies and not get lynched, and to encourage them to read the VE case. I am writing this response Here is my response: the vast majority of my attention is on VE, and nobody else is close to VE in terms of how scumy I think them. I wouldn't mind lynching snicks for some of the shit he did D2, but he has been writing a large amount of text so I'm going to evaluate how he is going forwards. I'm vaguely aware I ought to get around to making a serious read on Koshi, but I can't imagine what I could read that would be even a tiny bit more convincing than what I've seen from VE. If people post more cases I'll pay attention and see if I find anything convincing, but I anticipat On June 23 2014 13:24 slOosh wrote: YKZ could I ask who your #2 scumread is? Yes. However, I am pretty unwilling to vote ANYONE but VE. I am not interested in discussing my secondary scumreads except to appear helpful to other townies and not get lynched, and to encourage them to read the VE case. I am writing this response to you because I want you to take a look at my case against VE and analyze it critically and put serious effort into it. I get that you're voting me, whatever. Just respond to my case in more detail than you have, and you will ensure my co-operation for the rest of the day. Listen to me, read what I have to say, and respond. I'm assuming you accept my terms. Here is my response: the vast majority of my attention is on VE, and nobody else is close to VE in terms of how scumy I think them. I wouldn't mind lynching snicks for some of the shit he did D2, but he has been writing a large amount of text so I'm going to evaluate how he is going forwards. I'm vaguely aware I ought to get around to making a serious read on Koshi, but I can't imagine what I could read that would be even a tiny bit more convincing than what I've seen from VE. If people post more cases I'll pay attention and see if I find anything convincing, but I anticipate nothing will get me to move off VE. I'd say, snicks, for reasons related to D2, and then maybe Koshi, in terms of reads that aren't VE. e nothing will get me to move off VE. I'd say, snicks, for reasons related to D2, and then maybe Koshi, in terms of reads that aren't VE. Niether is a good lynch today. | ||
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On June 23 2014 13:35 Chezinu wrote: You know I love you. It's sad that you neglected to mention how VE had been spreading the lie that there were only 2 mafia this game. It is like he was saying that to cope with only have two active mafia and I thought I only trolled the hosts. I cannot wait until the cop reveals that rolecheck from last night. Are you as excited as I am Koshi? Eh, any kind of "slip" is as llikely to come from town as scum, if not more, so I don't think it's relevant to my case. Thank you, though, for your attempt at helping. As a VT, it's not my position to judge when blues should claim. I don't have the info they do. Generally they should claim to avert a mislynch or if they have a red check, but honestly ball is in their court for that judgement. I just hope they have appropriately crumbed any checks in case they get shot. | ||
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On June 23 2014 14:01 Snickers wrote: YKZ if you have time, what is your view on goodkarma being killed? Is there actual information that it gives or is the information such a long shot, that it is not worth evaluating compared to what people post in the thread. If it does give information can you comment on it. I'm glad to weigh in, though I'm afraid I don't have a lot to add to what has been said, so I'll just clarify what I believe so that people know. I basically have no thoughts on gk being killed. Maybe it was a bluesnipe, maybe it was because he and I have a pyschic link where we spare each other in games, or maybe it's cause people thought he was town and he was an unlikely protect target. Since it's possible he was killed for his reads, it is prudent to examine his filter. Highlights are: he knows I'm BH since we are connected, he calls release and me scummy and votes me. he criticizes me. I reach out to him with my Words and he relents. He briefly questions Release, implying he htinks release is scum. he votes 27nb. Then, during the endgame shenannies, he goes after VE. he says: On June 18 2014 08:32 goodkarma wrote: ##Vote: VE It's pretty clear he's not interested in keeping up with this game and is spewing whatever comes off the top of his head. Not clearly scum-aligned thought process, but a clear liability. And there's also that he lied about his history, which is pretty durned scummy. Then he swaps to 27nb when VE isn't a real option, and calls 27nb and mderg both "bad lynches" So, what do I make of this? Well, first off, I would be surprised if scum shot gk for his reads, because he was defending mderg, who was scum, even though VE is probably scum GK attacked him, which means gk was wrong on at least one serious read gk's case on VE came from a townie. the historical lies and top of the head stuff aligns iwth how VE was playing today. I'm not saying gk was shot for this case, because the shot clearly wasn't based on his reads. I'm saying that whatever you can say about GK's case against VE, you can at least say this: he meant it and was honest, as he is modconfirmed town. And honestly, reading that little snippet, that could be written about VE's action today, couldn't it? the wisdom of GK speaks to us even in his death. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 23 2014 14:49 Release wrote: See above, and if you are too lazy, I feel like he's grasping at straws, casting suspicion and trying to see what sticks. I thought Artanis commented earlier but I just wanted to catchall. Think of it what you will. I think the goodkarma kill was to kill someone not involved in controversy/chaos, a situation in which the majority of the us were. He attacked me and YKZ early in the day before focusing on VE. At that point, he hadn't said too much except this . There is the possibility that mafia silenced him before he could say more, but I'm more inclined to believe the first sentence in this paragraph. And for a note: I'm reading VE similarly to mderg, in that I feel his posts are somewhat suspicious but understandable in accordance with a town agenda. Also, the blatant meaning of his words do not nearly indicate as much mafia as mderg's did. Yeah and I'll leave this here until something new comes up: ##Vote Lazermonkey Given that GK spoke out strongly in defense of mderg, it's highly unlikely he was shot because of his reads, since one of them was obviously wrong. That doesn't mean he was wrong on VE, however. The points he makes in that post are factually accurate, and we also know that his motives were pure. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 23 2014 15:01 Release wrote: Absolutely. But it's not a particularly strong read nor is it necessarily correct as to VE's alignment. His "clear liability" has held, but mafia and therefore worthy of a vote? I don't believe so at this moment. I'd like to talk to you about your read on VE. you said early on that his lurkiness was bad, but not as bad as mine (link) and mid day 2 you say his activity indicates otherwise (otherwise what?) and that he's generating discusison, then you ask for opinions on him and never follow up (link) At the end of Night 2, you said VE is climbing back into your suspicious territory, where he apparently always lives (link) and you ask Snickers to look into him (because you think VE is scum? this isn't clear to me) (link). You defend VE from lazer and note that lazer is a more serious candidate than VE (though now I'm pretty sure Ve is leading in the votes) (link). Lastly, you finish by saying you read him similar to mderg, who flipped scum, but then you say in the same para that VE isn't as mafia as mderg, and vote Lazermo (link). So I guess my question is, can you give me a straight read on VE? He has always been "scummy" or "risinginly scummy" in your book, and you ask people about him a lot, but you never write a concrete case against him, or even interrogate him seriously. What's going on here, Release? what do you really think of VE? | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 23 2014 15:14 YouKnowZhou wrote: I'd like to talk to you about your read on VE. you said early on that his lurkiness was bad, but not as bad as mine (link) and mid day 2 you say his activity indicates otherwise (otherwise what?) and that he's generating discusison, then you ask for opinions on him and never follow up (link) At the end of Night 2, you said VE is climbing back into your suspicious territory, where he apparently always lives (link) and you ask Snickers to look into him (because you think VE is scum? this isn't clear to me) (link). You defend VE from lazer and note that lazer is a more serious candidate than VE (though now I'm pretty sure Ve is leading in the votes) (link). Lastly, you finish by saying you read him similar to mderg, who flipped scum, but then you say in the same para that VE isn't as mafia as mderg, and vote Lazermo (link). So I guess my question is, can you give me a straight read on VE? He has always been "scummy" or "risinginly scummy" in your book, and you ask people about him a lot, but you never write a concrete case against him, or even interrogate him seriously. What's going on here, Release? what do you really think of VE? Also, I would like you to directly address and respond to the specific concerns I bring up in my case against VE. If I'm wrong, (and I don't think I am, but then again, nobody who is really wrong thinks they're wrong), I want to know I am wrong. Tell me why this case doesn't make sense, or why VE is townie anyways, or why Lazermo is a better lynch along these parameters, but please, tell me this is wrong if you think it is wrong. Read the case (link). Let me know what you think. Be straight with me, as I am trying to be with you. On June 23 2014 12:33 YouKnowZhou wrote: tl;dr VE is scum, for reasons I outlined earlier. Let's lynch him. So, I made some noises (link) about the possibility of VE being town earlier. However, having taken a look a the facts, I do not believe the fact that VE backed off from me should significantly impact my read on him. I initially thought the backing-off may be deserving of a townread since a scum VE could potentially get me lynched with effort, and the "fake anger" strategy was working well. However, I believe I was selling short how good a job I had done of appearing co-operative. I had made it so even a scum VE would have to tone down the anger, would have to not ratchet things up and continue yelling at me. I'm going to refer to my end-of-day case here, so please read it: (link). VE has not since responded to it, and I'm going to address his semi-responses and cast a vote on VE. I'm also going to talk about the posts he has made since I made that post, at the very last moments of the night. The relevant part is here: First off, let's look at VE's "last minute" post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=828&topic_id=458796 This post, in which VE asks for a vigi shot, is in the very very last second of the night. I tried to make my post at the very last second before the deadline, but VE actually slipped this in between my post and the deadline. Now, you may think, "it makes sense for VE to ask to be shot. After all, maybe he's worried he'd get lynched as a townie and doesn't want to waste town's time". That's true, but look at the timing; there's absolutely no way that VE is going to get shot when he posts at that time, when it's too late for anyone to do anything. So what's the purpose? I can't find one other than "it makes VE look a tiny bit better", but honestly it's so see-through that the only thing I can think of is that VE is just trying to make noises that he thinks a townie would make, and he screwed up. Who asks for a vigi shot when it's too late for vigis to shoot? Remember, ve was in the thread about 10 minutes earlier (link) as well as throughout the night, he had plenty of time to ask for a shot and he didn't until it would make no difference. Next, VE retcons (link) how he was feeling about mderg during D2. It's true, VE made a scumread on mderg, but who was VE voting, even when his stated reasons for voting changed conditions? It was me, not mderg. Ve made all the noises about wanting to lynch mderg, and he even said that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and he wasn't voting mderg because Snickers and I were voting mderg. (link). Then, when release votes mderg and snickers votes ykz, VE stands by his vote. Remember, it was "2 townreads on the ykz wagon, 2 scumreads on the mderg wagon, that's my main reason here." When one of his townreads votes for mderg and one of his scumreads votes for me, what's the deal then VE? This has never adequately been explained, except when he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). So, VE made a lot of NOISE about being fine about the mderg wagon. I totally agree with him that he certainly liked to WRITE that he was fine about the mderg wagon. He definitely made up reasons that he voted me over mderg. But when those conditions changed, and his reasons didn't make sense any more, he didn't swap to mderg, or even try to re-evaluate. No, instead he "got mad" at me (link) and "happened" to be afk during the crucial time leading up to the lynch. But enough about D2; let's talk about D3. VE lays out his scumreads for today, which are me and Sloosh he says he's conflicted, and his heart says bh and his head says sloosh (link). He then asks for help. He doesn't have questions, he doesn't have cases to write. He doesn't ask me to clarify anything (Despite apparently now being cool with cooperating with me) and he doesn't try to address sloosh in any way. When artanis replies, VE responds by quoting his nk speculation in which he's telling me he's "giving me a pass" for D3. (link). This is in contradiction with his previous post, but I consider this contradiction to be a towntell rather than a scumtell. The issue with this post isn't that he contradicts himself (townies often do this) but that when someone offers an opinion, he just drops a quote and doesn't press on. Then, he just says "chez ur on the table today" (link) and it's like fairly clear at this point VE is just trying to figure out which way the wind is blowing. I'm amazed he hasn't made a koshi case yet . So here's where things get interesting. He's back onto the "gk kill means something" train (link) and trying to give himself credit for the mderg lynch again, but look at what he says about GK specificallyAt this point, VE is not in fact looking at GK's post and trying to evaluate it for merit. He's not saying "i'm gonna read this case or post with fresh eyes, as though GK were still alive, since GK was shot and is conftown". Instead, he's focusing his opinion on the scum part of the thing, the fact that GK was killed. GK could be killed for all kinds of reasons, and it can be valuable to speculate about it at times, but look at VE here. He's not using dead GK as some kind of resource to read, looking at the cases and posts like someone who's townie would. Instead of looking for GK's logic, his mind goes to reasons scum would shoot GK. I consider this to be a minor point in comparison to the end-of-D2 stuff. But it's a point. Buddying me (link) but more importantly an attack on sloosh. Why defend a scumread, VE? He defends himself, but not against my case (link). The taking credit thing is clever and annoying but not on its own an issue. It's really wroth noting that the 2nd post, about original posts, is spot-on. During D2 VE is mostly just chucking out rando reads without following them up, probably looking to see what sticks before writing a case. After losing his partner, VE wants to not overstep his leadership, which means toning down the nasty and buddying with me, and being like water and changing his shape to fill the container. As I wrote this post, he decides to vote me and of course does not write or reference a case: (link) I'll just leave that post in which VE votes me with no explanation, next to this quote from VE just 10 hours earlier: So I guess VE, besides all the points against you, something HAS changed. I have now pushed and voted for scum. You don't jsut get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without some explaining why I do that as mderg's mafia partner , in the words of a wise man. ##vote VisceraEyes | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 23 2014 15:20 Release wrote: VE has always been on of my candidates for mafia outside you. Although you disagree, I don' think he has done anything blatantly mafia and therefore he has only remained a candidate, and not worthy of a vote. Lazer on the other hand when I revisited his filter went from strong town Day 1 to useless D2 and D3, which pushes him ahead of VE, and snickers. I'll leave this here while I visit address your case. This gives me no indication that you have in fact read my case. I understand that you do not agree with my case. But surely you think my vote could be better used then, right? The case reflects my thoughts. Please, refute it and convince me, using whatever logic that has convinced you, that my case is wrong. I would like to hear it. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 23 2014 15:24 Snickers wrote: Also YKZ any thoughts on this? I understand if you do not want to read my unreadable post, so this is a bit more friendly. Here are my thoughts. VE has deffo lied about his willingness to lynch mderg, and his reasons for doing so. The fact that he has taken credit for things is supremely annoying given how unhelpful he has been this game, but is not on its own imo indicative of scum. I agree that he has not driven / led the game like he has the potential to as a town player. He has carefully opted out of interactions with a player like me with well-timed "afks" and "anger" and thus has not stepped into a position of leadership as much as you would expect of him. The fake anger was also broken off as soon as it was clear it was no longer useful to him and making him look bad. The extra helpfulness is not in and of itself a towntell imo since he's not using that co-operation with me to really do anything. Where is he ever asking for my input on anything? In a universe where VE was town, even if he thinks I'm scum he'd try to keep me talking about what he wanted to talk about (as many people do; everyone asks me questions) and try to learn more about my motivations. Lastly, it's obvious VE didn't actually want to vote mderg. His reasons about "who's on what wagon" obviously broke down, then he post-hoc rationalized that "sloosh was his rock" which is not the explanation he gave before. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 23 2014 16:43 VisceraEyes wrote: BH literally mever puts this much effort into games as town. Ninight. Unless you're trying to make a meta case against me for being pro-town, I don't see where this is going. On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: @"fake anger" I think it's more believable that your arrogance was a play than his fake anger. When you make claims of grandeur, you imply that you will not listen to others' reasons, which is exactly what you did on day 1. It's more likely that you wanted to waste time and cause VE to appear more suspicious than he actually is. since first p.graph in quote addresses afk, read above. Of course it's believable that my arroganice is anti-town and his anger was legit, but look at it this way: When push comes to shove, I'm always here, asking questions, pushing my cases, interacting with people, and pushing the thread forward. The fact of the matter is, my arrogance, however annoying it might be, has never inhibited my ability to push my reads, be available and helpful during lynches, or make sure that in the event of my death town has all the tools it needs to win. VE, on the other hand, conveniently only gets mad when it serves him (ie, to afk during the mderg vs BH lynch right after I return to the thread and start being helpful). Note that as soon as it's night time and no longer useful for him to be mad, it goes away, until I make a case against him again and he starts all this fake frustration that people view as townie. His emotions are literally always the most useful for his current purpose (lurk, not lurk, etc). Which paragraph in the quote? You say "Read above" but I am having trouble seeing what you refer to. Could you post a link or a quote so that I know what you are talking about, please? I'm not sure what you're referring to in this section below: can you please link or qutoe what you're responding to? On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: @ 2nd: Don't know why he would include the part about you. The nested quote doesn't but the quote does? Even if you're talking about the nested quote, he agrees with himself and his statements are not contradictory. I do concede that the imcompleteness of the nested quote implicates VE for not being candid, but it's a stretch to say mafia for this. You say that VE is "not being candid" (again, not sure what your'e talking about here) but that it's a stretch for mafia to say this. I'd say that lack of honesty is more of a stretch for a townie. On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: Sloosh rock? Yeah it's suspicious but it still sounds like his reasoning is the nested quote. He only mentioned me and sloosh in response to your question, which seems definitely secondary to his original reason. It SOUNDS like his reasoning in the nested quote, but look. His reasoning originally was based on 4 reads. He didn't say anything about sloosh being special or "his rock" until I pointed out that 2 of his reads moved-- and then he CHANGES his explanation from "I think these 2 guys are scum and these 2 guys are town" to "sloosh is the only read that matters". Clearly, his vote didn't come from his explanation, but the other way around: he needed an explanation to justify his vote, so he changed his explanation. Don't you see this? Town makes votes based on explanation, scum makes a vote, then makes an explanation to justify it. VE's explanation no longer made sense so he made a new one, something that SOUNDS like the old one so peopel don't notice but is different enough to justify a vote on me. On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: Sarcasm? It's a stretch to say it's serious. Town necessarily should be included in discussion. It is direct contradiction, and no one should (and didn't) agree without question. Why is it a stretch? There's literally nothing in there to indicate it's sarcastic. Why is the second part (don't post any more, or you're scum) sarcastic, but not the first part (your posting makes you look townie)? Can you explain what makes part of VE's sentence sarcastic and the other part not? Look, it wasn't like he ended the sentence with a bunch of exclam points or a LOOOOL or something. He said it absolutely straight, and this is the internet. You're really tying yourself into a knot to say that this is a stretch. On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: afk. Read above. Not sure what your'e referring to here. Can you quote or link? On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: The point is that the Vigi thing CANT be a real call fora v igi shot. The WHOLE POINT is that the vigi cannot react quickly enough to do so. That being said, this is a super minor point in the case. vigi sounds like sarcasm, especially "stupid and scummy" = emulating YKZ. Vigi cannot possibly react quickly enough to actually do so. On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: @next paragraph: read my sloosh rock paragraph. Again, suspicious yes. But it sounds more like he was led into this by you, not alone. He wasn't LED into it by me, I asked him a direct question, like I've asked a ton of people in this game, and responded to it by retroactively changing his explanation for why he voted me. Remember, he had a different explanation, and when I proved that wrong, he made up a new one. If Sloosh was really his rock, he'd have said so the first time. He didnt. On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: nested quote... D3 for referece---------------------- I don't understand this part of your post. On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: first two points OK. But if he gives you a pass, means that he suspects Sloosh more. I've been passing on you as long as you discuss stuff. A pass =\= townread. Not sure what your'e referring to with "first two points", but how could he possibly suspect Sloosh, who is his "rock"? Of course, it's plausible his reads have evolved and sloosh is no longer a townrread for him, but note he is now voting me along with sloosh, despite during D2 seeming to care a lot about who was on what wagon. On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote:The point about chez is understandable. Chez writes hidden messages. Not too hard for Chez to reveal the meaning of his messages, but VE wants more information? Understandable. this precedes this Consistent enough. I agree that the second part is rather useless. Attack on sloosh, seems to defend you as a corollary. His pass on you expired? Or he got tired of waiting to see which way the wind was blowing, saw some votes on me, and decided he could slip a vote in. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 23 2014 15:20 Snickers wrote: Release and YKZ if you are still around. What do you make of the day one posts. Sloosh highlighted the alignment of players. I do not think all of mafia would of been on 27nb. So i think it is very likely that, not to call you out but release lazermonkey or ve is scum. So it is obvious i think Ve is the most likely out of the mentioned three. Release is most likely not. As with lazermonkey, I read his filter and I thought it looked townie, somebody just mentioned he was playing well day one then dropped off day two or vice versa. So you most def do not want me to harp VE. If you have not yet, look at my post where I comment on where mderg says "honestly". I think mderg slipped so much with words it may have clued us in on other scum. Here's my VCA for the end of D1. I've highlighed our 3 flips that we'd have, which is 27nb and gk for town, and mderg for scum. D1 final votecount 27ninjabunnies (7): YouKnowZhou, Artanis[Xp], mderg, Chezinu, Koshi, slOosh, goodkarma YouKnowZhou (1): Release mderg (4): Snickers, VisceraEyes, 27ninjabunnies, Lazermonkey Two big wagons. One on a town, one on a scum. The wagons are 3 votes apart, so with 2 or 3 scum we can expect they have the option to split their votes rather than all vote 27nb to protect mderg. It's worth noting that the gk shot is suggestive that scum wasn't too worried about mderg during N1. If the scumteam was all on 27nb (say there are 3 scum) then they would imo be worried about mderg and be less likely shoot a big mderg defender, gk. This would be because they'd see that mderg has basically half of the town's votes on him and only scum voting could save him. if they had 1 or 2 votes on the mderg wagon, they see it as scum-driven and are not worried about mderg getting lynched d2 so they shoot gk n1. All this, however, is only in probabilities, not absolutes. I do not typically consider VCA to be a major component of my cases, and it's certainly not the kind of thing to convince me VE is scuml; my case against VE is here: (link). However, if this is the kind of thing you like (VCA and nk speculation), you can infer from the gk kill that scum is probably not concerned too much with shooting people killing mderg, which means there probably were not 4 townies voting mderg, which means VE is more likely to be scum. But seriously though, read my case (link) | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 24 2014 00:09 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Have you read VE in recent games? He really doesn't step up to this leadership position you expect of him anymore. He plays a lot more passive than he has in the past. I think the reason he wanted to lynch you over mderg is definitely fishy, but I can imagine a town VE just being sick of you. You did play a very antagonistic game earlier on. That said, I can also easily see the scum motivation and it's definitely a real option. The amount of people that want to lynch VE gives me pause. Need to re-eval but brain is not working. If what you say about VE's leadership potential is true, then I suppose that part of my case doesn't add up. However, it's worth noting that VE's changing reasons for his vote for me and his "anger" towards me are both superbly timed if his goal was to not help town and have a good excuse for doing so. Yes, it's imaginable that town VE was just being sick of me. In fact, I would expect scum VE to only ever feign anger in a game when town VE would imaginably be sick of me. Whatever I may say about myself, VE is a perfectly competent player. When he's scum, you're not gonna find him like, making huge mistakes and doing vastly scummy things. He's not gonna be angry at me for literally no reason. He'll only do it when he has a reason, but he'll do it strategically, to help himself. This is part of the point: he got mad and afked right when I came back into the thread and started asking earnest, friendly questions; I said that I accepted being lynched and wanted to have a discussion before I flipped, and he responded by swearing at me. If I came back and said "you guys all suck, I'm the best, bow down before me" then sure, the anger is believable. But I came back to help, was being helpful, and VE just happened to get angry and "Ragequit" the thread from when I came back to moments before the lynch. Convenient, explainable by potential town motivation, and super unhelpful to town. It's an amazing play for scum VE, and honestly it's still not 100% clear that I'll be able to lynch him for it. It was superbly executed, and though like any well done scum play there's lots of niggling things that dont' make sense to a townie, but are hard to pin down. I promise you that scum VE will not typically look like obvscum. The best you'll ever be able to say about scum VE (when he's having a good game) is that yeah, he doesn't look super town, but you don't think he's the best lynch choice right now. Yeah, what he said makes a lot of sense for scum to say, but you could see town saying it. Yeah, he's scummy, but you dont' want to lynch him. He'll have an off game or two where he gets easily lynched as scum; we all do. But typically, a scum VE is not easily caught. This is not an easy catch. But it's a catch. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 24 2014 01:02 VisceraEyes wrote: 1) I was absent during the main pushes of her lynch. This is the least active day of mine and this is evident in the thread. I can't push something when I'm not looking at the thread, similarly I can't push /against/ something if I'm not looking at the thread. You call 27nb supertown here, well after the case against her is underway: On June 16 2014 14:42 VisceraEyes wrote: So while I may or may not share the opinion that "The Kenpachi Rule" actually works or whatever, it's pretty much scientifically proven that you cannot discover the alignment of a player based on whether he is properly applying the tenets of the rule or not. That he's spoken at all makes me not want to lynch YKZ, and I think that bunnies is like supertown based on what she's saying and how she's arguing. I'm more interested in lynching people like BH sitting back and tossing in occasional kindling like the following and are content to sit back and watch it all burn. 8 hours later, you're in the thread (link) 10 hours after that, you're in the thread calling sloosh (who much later would be your rock) scum (link) what's telling though is that 8 hours after, you are (link) in the thread and have time to, and I quote: So I wrote this big post about why I think slOosh is mafia because he thinks Artanis is mafia, but then as I started picking apart slOosh's reasoning... And this is about 12 hours out from the deadline when 27nb is lynched. Look at this big post you wrote (then uwnrote) and your picking apart of reasoning, but nothing to stop the lynch on the supertown? Not even a word? I give you credit for asking people about mderg, but you never follow it up to call people out or pick apart reasoning, and you stand by and let your supertown read get lynched. When you are asked about it, you claim you weren't around, but let's be real here: you wrote a big post, then didn't post it, according to you, and picked apart reasoning, according to you, so clearly you had town. You claimed you espoused a clear townread of the 27nb wagon (link) but you clearly didn't advocate it. And yet here you are to pick up towncred when your townread dies, eh? and you say that your absence didn't cause a mislynch on its own (link) and it's true you made a decent mderg wagon (not enough to actually get him lynched, but still). However, you never weighed in on 27nb. You made a supoertown read on her early in the day, then ignored her as she got lynched. Yes, I lynched her and was wrong. But you got her alignment right, and did nothing to save her, and she flipped and proved you right. And you were afk, but had time to write a huge post, and never posted it. How convenient for you; or perhaps more likely you're scum. On June 24 2014 01:02 VisceraEyes wrote: 2) There's followup. I give reasoning for thinking he's susupicious (you may not like the amount, but it's there) and I ask a couple of times where votes are/why people aren't voting. Pretty standard "I don't have time to actually push here, but I think you should be lynching X" stuff D1. On D2, I make a case (which Snickers will tell you is his case, but I made it not even knowing Snickers was SUSPICIOUS of mderg) and yes, I vote for BH. But my active, stated stance is "I like both of these lynches". That is explicit in my posts, that's the active stance I take. It's not that I don't WANT to make a choice between them, it's that I don't have to because I think they both scum. You SAY you're fine with both lynches, but when your explanation for voting me over mderg goes away, you still vote for me. And you also conveniently get mad and afk at the critical time. You can make all the noise you want about how you wanted to vote for mderg, but when it comes down to it, you didn't vote mderg, and your lack of voting does not make sense. On June 24 2014 01:02 VisceraEyes wrote: 3) This is true, and unless you think BH is like supertown (lol) then I don't know what the problem is. Ultimately your case boils down to you don't like my playstyle, which is NOT news, we've had friction before I think. However if you're on my team this game, you should really move your vote off me and onto BH. Not gonna happen for anyone here, VE. If you guys want to check out a more fleshed-out case about VE's lack of consistency on the underlying reasons for his vote, and his convenient-for-him afking and rage, check out my case here: (link) | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 24 2014 01:52 VisceraEyes wrote: 1) While this is true, it doesn't make me scum nor would I spend my posts doing this if I were scum. WIFOM or whatever, but I'm just sayin. 2) I don't think coming in and poking fun at the way BH is reacting to things a "big attempt". Basically it was just me coming into the thread and reaffirming that I was on the right lynch. I never made ANY attempt to pull votes OFF mderg, which is the tack you have to think I was going for, but that's not what I did and that's not the effect of my "push" on BH. I made it clear that I wanted to lynch both of them. 3) Okay I'll disregard because subjective. LM if you're town you REALLY have to not vote for me here. I don't know if BH is scum, but I DO know that he's wrong about me. I'm town, and I THINK BH is scum. If I'm wrong whatever, that's fine. But I KNOW FOR A FACT that he's wrong about me and you should not lynch me. 2) you didn't just "come in and poke fun". You were in the thread half an hour before (link) and two hours before (link) you decided to make this post and AFK until the deadline: On June 21 2014 06:49 VisceraEyes wrote: What do you care? I'm too stupid to be reasoned with. It's obvious you were available, and now that your'e claiming that your anger was "poking fun", I don't get why you happened to just afk until right before the deadline, unless of course you are scum. Your explanation doesnt' make sense, and your claim that you just dropped by the thread is a lie, you had been in the thread for some time when you made that post. In fact, you posted at the same time as I made the post you responded to, then waited, then made the angry post, then afked, if we want to be clear about the timeline. On June 24 2014 03:57 Lazermonkey wrote: YKZ, I skimmed through your filter very fast but couldn't find what I was looking for. What do you think about Release? You mention him and talk with him alot. You seem to disagree with alot of his opinions. Do you think he is scum or just bad? Release is being annoyingly difficult to interact with. He's incoherent and it's not clear what he's talking about. I'm not gonna let this stop me from interacting with him. He made some nicer posts earlier ( case on snicks, I believe, that I thought revealed a good town though process) that make me unwilling to lynch him unless he continues to prove difficult to interact with. The fact that when directly called out, he responds to me, however poorly formatted that response may be, indicates to me that he's at least tryint to engage with people this game. I'm unwilling to lynch him today. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 24 2014 04:04 VisceraEyes wrote: Still town BH. You're STILL wrong. <3 This is not a reasonable defense. Calling oneself town is not convincing. Saying things like "I know that I'm town, so we shouldn't lynch me" (which you're doing a soft version of here in the thread) is meaningless. The fact that people find it meaningful is annoying. On June 24 2014 04:06 slOosh wrote: So I've given YKZ's case an honest read. If my understanding is correct, this is what it is distilled down: - VE said his preference for YKZ over mderg was based on what the wagons looked like. Namely town reads (slOosh, Release) on YKZ, not town reads (Snickers and YKZ) on mderg - Towards the lynch deadline, a couple of votes shuffled around, such that Release and Snickers switched wagons - VE stayed on mderg Is a correct interpretation of what you are saying? On June 24 2014 04:10 slOosh wrote: Right, in which case I find the case quite weak. He was ok with both, and he used the people on the wagon as tiebreakers. Town could do that, scum could pretend to do that as town. Null. This is one of a few parts of the case, but remember, VE didn't just stay on mderg, he then changed his reasoning for staying on mderg. If he said "eh, with 1 scum and 1 town on each wagon, I'm gonna go with my own judgement and vote YKZ, I think he's scum for reason X" there would be no case. Instead, he gave no explanation, and when called out for it, he said "oh, the only one of those reads I cared about was sloosh, sloosh is my rock". VE wanted a reason to not vote for his scumbuddy besides "I think YKZ is scum", and he wanted something that would SOUND like he was being consistent, so he continued with his "I'm working off of a townread voting pattern" solution but only for Sloosh. The fact that he felt a need to retroactively change the reason for his vote indicates to me that he's scum. Also, his fake anger and afk, and his non-defense of 27nb both factor into this. Think about it, of all the things I said, me reaching out to other players and being reasonable is possibly the least incendiary thing I've ever said in any game ever. I said that I accepted death, and that I wanted to leave something behind when I die, and VE responded by faking anger and afking until right before deadline. This is not a real anger, it's a well-timed anger (and he was not, as he said, just poking into the thread-- he had been posting earlier, when I made the post that addressed him) designed to prevent him from looking bad. It looks like it may have even worked on you guys. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 24 2014 04:19 VisceraEyes wrote: So I think there's at least one mafia between me, Lazermonkey and Snickers because we all WERE on mderg on D1 and WERE NOT on mderg D2. This is a very thoughtful point and is an indication that VE may in fact be town. On June 24 2014 05:00 Snickers wrote: So whatever you guys do,make sure to consolidate. Also anybody that has voted Lazermonkey since the beginning really look at how ve is reacting to pressure. I'm paying close attention. It's worth noting that VE seems to only vote me during times when it seems I might get lynched by the natural flow of votes, and when he meets the staunch resistance of the fact that (in my opinion at least) I'm fairly obviously town, off he goes. VE has spent this day looking for an easy wagon, and now he found one in lazermo. The reasoning he gave behind the vote is rock solid, though, so what I'm going to do now is go read up on lazermo and give my opinion. Let me know if you guys have any questions for me. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
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On June 24 2014 05:01 VisceraEyes wrote: Yes look at how concerned he is that he's going to die. LOL Look at how he tries to get the lynch off a townie and instead onto scum! SO SCUMMY!!! You've made 4 or 5 posts now basically saying "I personally know I am town, so don't lynch me" and that makes me much more comfortable in my vote on you. | ||
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On June 24 2014 05:06 VisceraEyes wrote: Like now it doesn't matter what you do BH. Who fucking cares what your opinion of Lazer is, in Lazer v VE you've made your fucking bed. There are votes enough for Lazer to lynch him instead of me. Fucking deal wit it. I'll say what I believe is right and vote who I believe is scum. You can say or do what you want but nothing will silence my voice or snuff out the ringing clarity of truth in my words. | ||
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On June 24 2014 05:16 VisceraEyes wrote: You say that, but I made a case on him and repeatedly stated that I was fine with him being lynched. I don't care how many times you say that I wasn't a factor in his lynch because my vote was on someone else, the facts and my posts speak for themselves. You made a case on him, said you were fine with him being lynched, then you didn't push him or vote him, and voted for his counterwagon even after your stated reason for voting the counterwagon went away. I know I overuse the phrase, but that's pretty much classic scum play. You voted mderg day 1, then day 2 you didn't vote him and made noises about how he was scum, but didn't follow it up, voted someone else, and day 2 was the day that mattered. | ||
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In any case, he didn't write a real case on LM anyways other than "LM didn't explain his vote and LM, like me, didn't vote mderg when it mattered" Let's off VE first. Also VE, don't knock the classics. They're classics for a reason | ||
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On June 21 2014 08:59 Lazermonkey wrote: ... I Mderg is probably a crappy lynch. But there are still too few voters on YKZ... w/e. ##Unvote ##Vote: YKZ There was NO CHANCE this vote would lynch me, based on when he made it. There's also no chance that this vote would possibly look good if he was scum. I could imagine town being like "w/e fuck it I'm voting who I want even if it makes no difference" but I can't imagine scum making such a boneheaded move. There's no chance to save mderg there, and if he's scum he knows mderg will flip scum. Why make a move like that? Sure, it's not like some amazing pro-town vote, especially since it's on me and not mderg, but look at the thought process here. Imagine your'e Lazermo. You post a lot, you read the thread, but you're not particulariy "with it". You think YKZ is scum overt mderg, who is CLEARLY town. You try some shenannies onto like VE but that doesn't work out, and in the end you realize your vote will make no difference. Your townread, mderg, is getting lynched, and the counterwagon is your scumread, YKZ. It's too late. You can't do a thing. All you have left is a final act of defiance, futile defiance, but defiance nonetheless. You cast your worthless vote. That makes sense to me. I see that. Now, imagine you're scum Lazermo. Your scumbuddy mderg is getting lynched, and the counterwagon is a townie. Your vote is parked on VE, a nonconsequential wagon. You literally can't save mderg, and voting ykz will only make you look bad. Do you vote ykz? of course not! You're not a moron. So, this vote makes Lazermo town. | ||
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On June 24 2014 05:55 YouKnowZhou wrote: IMO, in a way Lazermo's saving grace is his utterly nonsensical vote on me: There was NO CHANCE this vote would lynch me, based on when he made it. There's also no chance that this vote would possibly look good if he was scum. I could imagine town being like "w/e fuck it I'm voting who I want even if it makes no difference" but I can't imagine scum making such a boneheaded move. There's no chance to save mderg there, and if he's scum he knows mderg will flip scum. Why make a move like that? Sure, it's not like some amazing pro-town vote, especially since it's on me and not mderg, but look at the thought process here. Imagine your'e Lazermo. You post a lot, you read the thread, but you're not particulariy "with it". You think YKZ is scum overt mderg, who is CLEARLY town. You try some shenannies onto like VE but that doesn't work out, and in the end you realize your vote will make no difference. Your townread, mderg, is getting lynched, and the counterwagon is your scumread, YKZ. It's too late. You can't do a thing. All you have left is a final act of defiance, futile defiance, but defiance nonetheless. You cast your worthless vote. That makes sense to me. I see that. Now, imagine you're scum Lazermo. Your scumbuddy mderg is getting lynched, and the counterwagon is a townie. Your vote is parked on VE, a nonconsequential wagon. You literally can't save mderg, and voting ykz will only make you look bad. Do you vote ykz? of course not! You're not a moron. So, this vote makes Lazermo town. Release, VisceraEyes, slOosh, Chezinu: you are currently voting Lazermo. I'd like you to tell me why my defense of Lazermo is wrong, or unvote him. If you've already addressed this, please link or quote where it has been addressed. Thanks! | ||
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On June 24 2014 06:19 slOosh wrote: Or you're scum Lazermonkey, your vote will still look terrible on VE, and you vote YKZ to do the "oh scum wouldn't do that" maneuver. Or you're scum Lazermonkey, the votes are flying around and it isn't too clear what the votecounts are, so you do it because you think you can save mderg. I mean, there's a lot more scenarios than the ones you display here. There is no "oh scum wouldn't do that" manoeuvre though, that's just wifom. You're just saying "this thing that only makes sense for a townie to do, makes sense for scum to do because it makes sense for a townie to do", but I'm talking about mindset here. Look, it's plausible that LM decided to do something insane that provides no tangible benefit, lots of potential downside, and plenty of potential getting-lynched-tomorrow-side, as scum, on the off chance we'd have this convo. Typically though, that's not how scum rolls. And regarding vote count confusion, here's where the last vote count was: (link). Mderg had 5 votes, and I had 3. Mderg votes me, bringing me up to 4. Then LM votes me, bringing me up to 5, at the last second, and sincee mderg hit 5 first, mderg is lynched. Now, it's possible LM was a confused scum, but the only other vote that happened in the final 10 minutes of the game was Mderg's. If Mderg and LM were scum together, Mderg and LM would be in the QT and Mderg would say something like "ok, I just voted for YKZ. If we can get one more townie to vote YKZ, you can hammer and we can kill him." LM as scum would be keenly aware of the votecount. It's still possible that he got confused anyways, or he thought another townie had voted when in fact they hadn't, but the final 10 mintues were not actually confusing at all. 10 minutes before the lynch, it's 5-3. Mderg votes me, making it 5-4, 9 minutes before the lynch, and nobody votes until the very deadline, where LM brings it to 5-5 and mderg is flipped. I think both scenarios are possible, but not likely. | ||
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On June 24 2014 06:08 Release wrote: Town: Claiming that the other is lying when one responds other (BH on VE). Claiming that the other is lying/misleading/blatantly wrong when reasons are made (VE on BH). There's no real benefit to working on associative tells between unflipped players. How about we flip VE first, THEN speculate on it? On June 24 2014 05:59 Release wrote: No. His vote doesn't matter. He could do whatever the fuck he wants and Mderg will still get lynched. I feel going any further than to say inconsequential vote ---> not alignment indicative is a stretch and probably WIFOMable. Obviously he COULD vote anyone, and it wouldn't make a difference. This is an assumption that's built into my case. Pointing this fact out doesn't weakn my case. Thanks for the response to my other, longer post. I'll get to that shortly. | ||
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On June 24 2014 07:22 slOosh wrote: On a clean reread sure things are clear, but at the time it may not have been, as evidenced by this post here. You wouldn't post this unless you were actually considering that you could die. Yeah, I considered it possible I would die. It's true, I suddenly hit 5 votes, and expected a potential 6th vote somehow. I only had moments and had to compress all the info I could into a post that I could squeeze out before the hosts flipped the lynch, potentially me. I chose my words wisely. It wasn't "lazermo is scum for the vote" or anything like that, it was a request to read his filter. And it's also a request that ended in "if I die now" because if I lived, you wouldn't need to. It's possible Lazermo is scum; my town read on him is not as rock solid as my scumread on VE. I certainly wanted to cover all my bases in the event I was lynched. But remember, at the end of the day, I didn't know if a 6th vote was gonna suddenly show up from a scum player. If you assume LM is scum, then he WOULD know. He wouldn't be afraid. Remember, the ONLY vote since the 10-minute-out votecount was from mderg. If we assume LM is scum, he knows exactly what's going on. I didn't know if someone was gonna show up and hammer me, so I had to hedge. LM as scum would know there was no hammer coming from a teammate, and would not be confused about votes with mderg in the QT with him, mderg who is the only other person who has voted isnce the last votecount. | ||
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On June 24 2014 07:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote: BH, given all the information so far, could you lay your scumread on VE out for me one more time for old time's sake? Absolutely. Do you want it in one paragraph or one page? | ||
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On June 24 2014 07:36 Lazermonkey wrote: Btw I'm could still be persuade to maybe lynch Koshi. VE still a good lynch though but since he decided to actually talk and give a bunch of reads when he pretty GGed if he was scum makes me a little bit worrysome. Note that he just dropped some reads, he's not here developing them. The dude has an hour and a half, with which he could be bouncing ideas off of people and developing his reads. Instead he drops a post that looks a lot like a "i'm townie and gonna die" post, but what is he doing otherwise? Everything VE does to help town is only like directly in response to people lynching him. On June 24 2014 07:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Also, please share your opinion on Koshi. Sorry Kurumi ;_; d'oh totally forgot. I'll do this as well. | ||
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On June 24 2014 07:40 Artanis[Xp] wrote: A short paragraph per point that you think proves that he's scum would be nice. Not the fluff, just the strong arguments. Awww yisss only the strong stuff OK so here's where I'm at on VE. I'll say the main points then expound on each. VE's anger and unanger align very well with not engaging the town, and strike me as fake. Remember, during the time when I was trying to get in a last set of reads (sorta) before getting lynched, when I was chipping in an we were having real discussion? Suddenly, VE is "angry" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=33#651 and afks until right before the deadline. VE was AFK during the crucial period of the D2 lynch, apparently due to anger. VE now claims he was just "poking in" to confirm that he was on the right wagon, but he had been in the thread half an hour earlier when I made the post, and a little over an hour before that to talk about other things. VE was in the thread. VE voted mderg D1, but didn't vote Mderg D2. His reasons for not voting Mderg are nebulous. He talks about sloosh looking good, and leaves out the fact that I have had to prod him multiple times over everything, doesn't address the fact that his reasoning was that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and disliked snickers and me on mderg: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721 Remember, later on, when VE is in the thread, Release, one of the two guys he likes, is on mderg, and Snickers, one of the guys he doesn't like, is on me. So, he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). It is, however, more convenient, just like VE's fake anger (until he got called out for it and realized I was being super reasonable), or VE's afking right after I start engaging my thread, up until riight before the deadline. VE is low energy and not engaging the thread except as a response to people trying to lynch him. This is more general but it ties in with "VE soft pushing mderg". VE doesn't seem to have the courage of his convictions. I don't see him making a hard push on mderg (yes, he wrote a case, but with what followup? And then D2 he's not even on the guy...) Even when he's getting lynched, instead of engaging with the thread, VE just drops a few reads that are already in his filter and says "everything BH says is lies". I've already called this out of course. During D3, VE has waffled a lot on his reads on me and sloosh, and mostly just trying to see who is easiest to lynch. VE was unusually directionless today. I got a pass, Sloosh was his rock, no, wait, sloosh is scummy, never mind, BH gets no pass, actually let's lynch LM. Why? Because of a reason that applies to VE also, but also LM voted for VE so VE doesn't like that. There's no attempt to provide clarity or even suss out the truth, just figure out who beisdes him he can get lynched today. VE tries to shut down town discussion. I know I can be a jerk, but VE has repeatedly (jokingly, in a fit of anger, w/e-- I think it's calculated) tried to shut down town discussions. Whether it's me on my deathbed trying to leave reads, or (snicks I think) trying to write big posts at night. Oh yes, going back on it, VE has all kinds of explanations. He's joking, it was sarcastic, he was just "poking in the thread". But whatever explanation he has, he's trying to stop players who are scummy looking from explaining themselves, writing cases, or giving reads. His provocation of me was particularly hilarious. If I weren't on top of my game this game, I probably would have taken the bait. yeah that's about it I think, maybe I left something out but I think I got it. | ||
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On June 24 2014 08:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Maybe your average scum, not VE scum. VE scum either actually fights the lynch or just leaves the thread. VE town rubs it in everyone's face that he's the wrong lynch. Weak insubstantiated meta claim of reproducible town behavior trumped by actual case, imo. Koshi! So, I've made some noises about Koshi as a potential 3rd tier scumread and have been asked to clarify that read. I know I defended him pretty strongly during D2 on policy grounds, and have basically ignored him today, D3, in my attempts to lynch VE. This post rectifies the situation. First, I think we can check Koshi's D1 27nb vote. He was casting a vote cause he just replaced in and D1 was about to end. He calls out VE for lack of a structured case on mderg, which I like (link). It shows thread-reading. He has questions for snickers and release, and calls them scum, based on "scum never votes together" which is not great logic. He discusses Mderg, waits for big plays, then sits around. I would say that his lack of a vote on me at the end of D2 is not relevant. It does allow is to reasonably rule out an LM-Koshi scumtea. If they were both scum together, they could have hammered me to save mderg. Alternatively, they would have not voted me at all if that was too risky. The "one votes, the other does not, letting mderg die" thing is pretty silly. In fact, Since Koshi was on mderg, after the swap from mderg, Koshi could have voted me and hammered me. It would have made a ginormous amount of sense but he could have, and he didn't. Overall, Koshi's play hasn't been big, but acceptable. The part that for me looks like a contrived bus is his vote for VE. He makes the post here: On June 23 2014 22:05 Koshi wrote: I actually like this BH case again. The only thing I don't like is the vigi part. BH is like 99% town for me. I don't even understand why VE/Sloosh/Release are voting for him or calling him scum. If he is alive in lylo I would reconsider but I have never seen BH play this normal. I like this normal play. Sheeping BH pretty good. ##unvote ##vote: VE Last 2 scums could be VE/Lazermonkey. SloOsh still very possible as well. But he likes me so I like him. I am friendly like that. Chezinu, your play is not exciting me at all. Add more Chezazzle to it. After scumreading LM, who is the big counterwagon, he is convinced by my case on VE. He also says he doesn't understand why VE is voting me (though if VE is scum, it's very obvious why VE would vote me). He doesn't explain himself thoroughly and hasn't made many scumreads on VE. I'm glad he's voting VE, but then he makes a really really big post after voting VE about how he wants to lynch LM (link) and then he doesn't vote LM. Imo, whatever waferlike reasons I had before for thinking Koshi scum, this really nails it for me. Why is he voting VE? He says he's convinced by the non-vigi proportion of my case, but he's not arguing for a VE lynch in the thread, he's arguing for an LM lynch, and his vote is still on VE even as LM is the counterwagon. Then he's like "well they could both be scum together". This is like an infinitely less skillfull version of what VE was doing D2. Okay, so I started this post about how we shouldn't lynch Koshi today but actually I'd be okay with it. If our options are LM vs Koshi, I'm voting Koshi. However, since we're lynching VE, let's lynch VE. Koshi tomorrow. | ||
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On June 24 2014 08:34 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So can we lynch Koshi for wanting to lynch Lazer then voting VE and generally being useless? BH, can you imagine a scenario in which VE has simply played poorly rather than being scummy? His anger struck you as fake, but could be a genuine response given your antagonistic beginnings and the frustration erupting from that. Checking in from your phone is possible, I do it sometimes too and you can not have the time to really interact but still want to be there. I think your point regarding the voting of mderg holds water and I would like to hear VE respond to it. VE being low energy is common nowadays, the waffling to see who is easiest to lynch is a subjective statement. He could also simply be evaluating his reads. The town discussion point is also up for debate. Anti town does not equal scum. I get what you're saying. If you're asking if I'm 100% sure that VE is scum, the answer is no. I'm fairly certain he's scum, I think that I'd be pretty surprised if he flips town in half an hour. That being said, Koshi is pretty bad to, and if by some weird happenstance he flips today, I would be surprised if he flips town-- not as surprised, but surprised. Whichever one of these dudes dies I'm lynching the other one tomorrow, and I think that's probably our scumteam. By D4 we can probably expect some blue claims which will close this out pretty easily if I'm wrong on Koshi. So, VE could be faking anger and AFKness that happens to coincide with the least useful way to be angry and afk, and the best way to avoid town discourse. I find it unlikely given that he didn't erupt at my antagonism, but after it was gone and I was being friendly to the thread, and that it died down when it became clear that avoiding me made him look bad. It's possible, though. I think most players on TL Mafia make the mistake of accepting anger and emotions as real. I see why his non-intellectual posts have cast doubt. I think that his decision to not respond, given that his response ended up being like 1 line anyways, was not motivated by phone posting. It was motivated by him saying "this is easier if I just act mad". The low energy thing is a smaller point in the scheme of things. I admit it's possible VE is just having slow games. I would be much more surprised if he was having "be intentionally unhelpful to people" games though, so the anti-town stuff I think is solid. In a case so big, not every point is gonna be picture perfect. But there it is. | ||
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I am very, very glad that we have Koshi as a counterwagon; he at least is likely to flip scum. But come on, guys, look at VE. He's so much scummier. omg. | ||
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On June 24 2014 08:51 Lazermonkey wrote: Its 10 minutes untill lynch. No, I'm not going to post it now. just link them or quote them, and do it before the flip. | ||
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On June 24 2014 08:53 slOosh wrote: You said you were gonna push whoever survives tomorrow anyways, why so antsy? party cause Ve is more likely to flip scum but... also cause I want ve DEAD. I want him to die, to get lynched at my hands. I want this lynch to go my way. I want to be able to mockingly say "who's the town leader now? looks you failed on both qualifications" after he flips I want him to be SAD. On June 24 2014 08:53 Artanis[Xp] wrote: It doesn't matter if you think it's stinking meta, it's accurate. Since when do you care about the way in which someone gives off towntells? It's either accurate or it isn't, and I'm pretty sure it's accurate. The faking anger/afk thing is all projection and something you can't be certain of. [citation needed] | ||
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On June 24 2014 08:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I think those posts actually make Koshi a lot scummier than he was before though. That second post especially as he ends up making a case on Lazer but never votes him. I agree with Artanis. The entire source for my scumread on Koshi is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=54#1067 Otherwise he wouldn't be my 2nd choice for lynch today | ||
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On June 24 2014 08:58 Artanis[Xp] wrote: 3 minutes left and I mentioned the game names already. Hydra Mini Mafia for scum VE getting caught, Shadow Mini Mafia for Town VE martyring. Oh, I must have missed it. Well, eminently fakeable. I'm staying on VE, he'll flip, and I'll finally have peace. It will be glorious, oh yes. | ||
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On June 24 2014 08:58 VisceraEyes wrote: And this is why you're objectively a bad player. Because you play for yourself and not to win. Only if you're town, that is. If you're scum, masterful job chap. I'm gonna be real here VE, another non-trivial reason I'm lynching you and not Koshi is I'm tired of dealing with your attitude. Even if you and Koshi were equal scumreads in my eyes, I'd lynch you first. Hell, even if Koshi was slightly scummier. Your tone and your treatment of me this game sicken me. | ||
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##vote Koshi | ||
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I hate myself so much. I just want VE to not speak for 72 hours. Actually, you know what, you guys will lynch Koshi tomorrow anyways, I should move back to VE. Or not. Someone tell me why I should move back to VE please | ||
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Yeah you're right I should just get rid of you first, Koshi tomorrow. You had your chance to be useful. I just wish we could double lynch today ##unvote ##vote VisceraEyes | ||
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On June 24 2014 09:09 Koshi wrote: Another 42 minutes............. What can I say. All my scumreads are on me. I know I made a case on lm and didnt vote him. How fucking bad do you thibk I am?? Your vote was on VE, you didn't make a case on VE, then you wrote this big case on LM and said you really wanted to lynch him, but apparently you didn't cause you kept your vote on VE. If you think about it, this is exactly the kind of thing we're lynching VE for doing lol | ||
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On June 24 2014 09:11 slOosh wrote: Like no one else finding Lazermonkey's recent posts super off? Like, somehow these posts look like pushing? Yeah LM clearly didn't read Koshi's filter. I feel bad about defending LM now. He's not even Koshi or VE tier lynchworthy imo tho s/adequately/even a tiny bit | ||
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On June 24 2014 09:14 YouKnowZhou wrote: Yeah LM clearly didn't read Koshi's filter. I feel bad about defending LM now. He's not even Koshi or VE tier lynchworthy imo tho s/adequately/even a tiny bit EBWOP | ||
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On June 24 2014 09:33 VisceraEyes wrote: Like BH even tries to switch off mderg onto me man, I don't know how much clearer I can make this. Um not true. | ||
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On June 24 2014 09:33 VisceraEyes wrote: Like BH even tries to switch off mderg onto me man, I don't know how much clearer I can make this. This is literally a lie. I am trying to get not-me lynched, but I specify (can't find the post right now) that VE is my least favorite non-me wagon. Then, VE does his return to the thread stuff and I realize he's scum-- you'll notice a lot of the evidence in my case has appeared by this point. I point this out, but it's too late to swap, so I am going for him after mderg, which I am. | ||
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On June 24 2014 09:39 Lazermonkey wrote: I'll leave the vote on Koshi I think. I really think scum VE would not play this way. Its just too suicidal. Look man, VE has basically given up. He knows he is being lynched. He's setting the stage for scum #3 and he's trying to avoid giving away hints. Instead, he's just calling people bad, and trying to get a wagon going on anyone not him. It's perfect because it gives away no info, nothing useful to town. he's not too scummy to be scum, he's perfectly scummy to be scum. | ||
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I'm gonna go grab dinner, leave requests for end-of-night reads, answers, etc here in the thread for me. | ||
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I still like kosh for a lynch. I'm still unwilling to lynch lm because of the latevote. I've generally found art town and he is my top townread | ||
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On June 25 2014 08:24 Snickers wrote: Yea I think it would be a lot better to lynch Lazermonkey because he forgot that he voted mderg day one. I already explained why I thought it was suspicious. Could you link or.quote this for me please | ||
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To reiterate on kosh he really didn't give reasoning for his VE vote and the lm ca see came sty a very wired time. His other actions I don't really care about. Whining isn't a scum tell unless it is accompanied by lack of play. His d3 votes don't name sense. What I take away most from VE filter.is.his scrutiny of people.who voted mdetg d one and not two. We should | ||
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On June 25 2014 09:01 Lazermonkey wrote: Well, that sucks. I'm guessing that's why we had no nk N2. Sooo. Who did he save? Sloosh | ||
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On June 22 2014 03:04 Koshi wrote: I agree with Artanis that VE is town from mderg filter. I was a bit too focused on the mderg scumread into voting BH earlier. It would be pretty insane scumplay to buss each other with big cases into moving away from each other right before lynch. For me scummers are: Lazermonkey/Sloosh Then he votes LM, which makes sense On June 22 2014 20:14 Koshi wrote: Lynching people who are doing absolutely nothing is really good. Never fails really. Always mafia. ##vote: Lazermonkey When he starts mentioning VE again, he asks for reasons that VE is not mafia then votes VE based on my case, with almost no explanation On June 23 2014 22:05 Koshi wrote: I actually like this BH case again. The only thing I don't like is the vigi part. BH is like 99% town for me. I don't even understand why VE/Sloosh/Release are voting for him or calling him scum. If he is alive in lylo I would reconsider but I have never seen BH play this normal. I like this normal play. Sheeping BH pretty good. ##unvote ##vote: VE Last 2 scums could be VE/Lazermonkey. SloOsh still very possible as well. But he likes me so I like him. I am friendly like that. Chezinu, your play is not exciting me at all. Add more Chezazzle to it. Even at this point I consider Koshi to be chill. I don't mind this vote in a vacuum. The 180 on VE is surprising, but I've put in work. The problem here is that the explanation is lacking. Well, don't worry, Koshi shows up shortly thereafter with some mad explanation:(link). In his large post about 6 hours later, Koshi is writing about how LM is town and how he wants to lynch LM, rather than about VE. People call him out and he defends himself but never pushes VE futher. The lack of followup isn't a main poitn, actually. Really it's just the "vote VE, big case on LM". I don't like it. Koshi is imo a higher prio target than LM, whose latevote on D2 only really makes sense from a town perspective. ##vote Koshi | ||
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I continue to believe that Koshi is scum. As I said earlier: On June 24 2014 08:26 YouKnowZhou wrote:The part that for me looks like a contrived bus is his vote for VE. He makes the post here: After scumreading LM, who is the big counterwagon, he is convinced by my case on VE. He also says he doesn't understand why VE is voting me (though if VE is scum, it's very obvious why VE would vote me). He doesn't explain himself thoroughly and hasn't made many scumreads on VE. I'm glad he's voting VE, but then he makes a really really big post after voting VE about how he wants to lynch LM (link) and then he doesn't vote LM. Imo, whatever waferlike reasons I had before for thinking Koshi scum, this really nails it for me. Why is he voting VE? He says he's convinced by the non-vigi proportion of my case, but he's not arguing for a VE lynch in the thread, he's arguing for an LM lynch, and his vote is still on VE even as LM is the counterwagon. Then he's like "well they could both be scum together". This is like an infinitely less skillfull version of what VE was doing D2. Okay, so I started this post about how we shouldn't lynch Koshi today but actually I'd be okay with it. If our options are LM vs Koshi, I'm voting Koshi. However, since we're lynching VE, let's lynch VE. Koshi tomorrow. Now, it turns out that VE flipped town, so clearly Koshi was not bussing VE. But the underlying problem here, which is that Koshi's posting and voting don't align, still applies. | ||
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On June 26 2014 05:56 Lazermonkey wrote: Waitwat. Did you really check me? What did you get for result? Don't you mean "so you know I am vanilla"? | ||
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Yeah chez is the role cop. Am I like the only person who noticed this? He literally announced his check | ||
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What is the main evidence for your read on him? ##unvote ##vote lazermonkey | ||
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On June 26 2014 06:51 Lazermonkey wrote: I actually urge you to look at SlOosh filter. I mean, Also look at my filter and look for stuff about SlOosh. Even if you are 100% sure I'm scum you still need to figure out the other scum. I've explained several times why I think he is scum already, including: - Defends mderg alot. Yet he gives very weak/no reasoning on why he is defending mderg. It boils down to him saying that he doesn't like the mderg lynch. - ALL of his major pushes has been on people that are town (Artanis, VE, Bunnies, me) except for YKZ. And since I think YKZ supertown, this also implies that SlOosh has only really pushed town this game. I'm aware of the fact that you don't know my alignment nor do you know YKZ's alignment but keep this point in mind when I flip since this should also increase your townread on YKZ. - Is very eager to vote YKZ over me D3. Yet now he completly drops his read on YKZ to focus only on me. Isn't this convenient given that I am the number 1 lynch target? I'd also like to point out, once again, that I think Release's reason for thinking that SlOosh is town is BS. While asking question IS good, it is very non-commital. Telling people to stop creating chaos is also good but once again, non-commital. Look LM what I'm trying to get at here is that if you're dead anyways, let's just make the best of it. I still think you have a decent chance of flipping town, but let's be real here: there's a red check on you. You have to be lynched. So I'm not 100% sure you're scum, but I *am* 100% sure you're getting lynched today. The first step to being productive with the next 24 hours is going to be you accepting that you're getting lynched and making the best of it. So when it comes down to it, your case on sloOsh consists of him pushing townies and defending mderg with faulty reasoning, and on D4 focusing you over me (I'm assuming you're talking about before chez claimed a goon check on you). Does this accurately characterize your reasons for wanting to lynch him? | ||
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On June 26 2014 07:17 Chezinu wrote: Are you for realz!?!??! I never said I got a goon check!!! ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU FRAMES HIMS WITH THE GOON CHECK?!?!? You obviously didn't get medic, you can't get godfather, and if there was a roleblocker scum would have roleblocked artanis last night and shot you (remember, you didn't specify his medic type, so they'd need to RB him to be sure he didnt' save you again) so there wouldn't be a live chezinu to clarify his checks. Admittedly you could have gotten back framer, which I didn't consider. | ||
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On June 26 2014 07:24 Chezinu wrote: Wow, you really did think through about killing me, didn't you? Well, you have been obviously the cop for a while. The only reason I didn't call you the cop at night was in case scum somehow didn't know-- if you could live another night and get another check, that's good. When you were alive and Artanis died, I tried to think about why scum wouldn't just rb the medic and shoot the cop, and the only reasonable answer is that they actually couldn't. | ||
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On June 26 2014 07:25 Lazermonkey wrote: Sure, I'm cool with dying. Yes, that's basically the reason I think SlOosh is scum. Given your response, it seems like you are not sharing my views, am I correct? Some more things: -Snickers, I remember someone giving pretty solid arguments for why he was town. I don't really remember who or where but I remember getting convinced. His reads are just super off but yhea. Probably town here, agree/disagree? -Release, I think his play is also really off. At first I thought that he was pretty confirmed town for his mderg vote but his vote actually came after mderg super wierd vote on Snickers. I'm getting a feeling that Release might have understood that mderg just fucked up too bad to be able to save in a good way at that point. I was summarizing. I'll take a look at the faulty reasoning of mderg defense, which is typically more telling of scum than just happening to push townies imo. The question isn't what a player does, but HOW the player does it. town can be right and town can be wrong, but they are right or wrong for reasons that make sense, at least to a townie. If SloOsh was really defending mderg for reasons that don't make sense then that's a solid reason for a scumread. I did not like release before D3. However, throughout D3 he was willing to engage me and we had many long conversations, when I feel like as scum he just wouldn't have interacted in such a meaningful way. That being said, I'll take a look at my interactions with him and see if anything seemed off. Snickers' chief point against him (in addition to some blantantly anti town play) is that he voted for mderg D1 but not D2, just like you and VE did. I don't like him. On June 26 2014 07:46 Lazermonkey wrote: Went back and analyzed both Artanis's and GK's filter. While we can only speculate on why they got shot we do know that they got shot for a reason People have already tried to get a grip of the GK-shot. Most people had him as townie after D1 IIRC so it makes a bit of sense to shoot him none the less. He was also suspcious of mderg. What I haven't seen someone say (and this may be because I simply missed it, CBA to look through all pages really...) is that he was pushing Release quite a bit. This makes Release look a little worse IMO. As for Artanis's filter its kinda hard. I think he got shot simply for the fact that he was a town read for basically everyone. In terms of the Artanis shot, it seems very straightforward to me. He was the doc and scum needed to shoot him. The fact that scum shot him and not Chez means they probably didn't have an RB, else they'd have RBed him and killed the cop right away. Also, yes, like literally everyone had a townread on Artanis. | ||
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On June 26 2014 11:07 Snickers wrote: Day 2 votes I was busy so I had to consolidate early. W/e you make out of that. Anyway time for me to come clean. I do not know if this is the best move, but I think it will be good for me and chezinu to compare notes. I am the Detective. Here was the message when I was afraid of dying. Day one I checked YKZ and he was reported back town. Day two I checked Lazer and he came town. Day three I checked SLoosh and he became town. I originally thought my the trick to my role was trying to guess who was getting lynched. So I thought YKZ was getting lycnhed day two. I thought Lazer day three Then I figured out that after I have lived for awhile, it is more about good checks. Anyway I checked sloosh after learning this. So Chezinu does this help you? Hopefully Lazer is scum. From Day 2: On June 21 2014 05:25 Snickers wrote: ##Unvote mderg ##Vote YouKnowZhou I have to go to work and will not be home till after the lynch. This is me consolidating my post. If YKZ flips town, everybody needs to evaluate my points on release. Even if YKZ is mafia i can still see Release being mafia. Also i told someone I would say my reads on VE. Day one he did nothing to help town. I do not even understand how he could think he did something useful. Have not focused on him after day one, but i still think he is not being useful. Also any town that voted for 27nb as their final vote for day one needs to really take a look at release if YKZ flips town. Also after today's lynch if I am still alive, I will look into the voting timings on day one and day two. Day one was very close for mderg being lynched instead of bunnies. I think it was goodkarma that voted 27nb cause his vote was of no use, but if release voted mderg and goodkarma, I think it would have been mderg that got lynched. Also Koshi if you are town try to at least make it seem like you are contributing. ##unvote ##vote snickers | ||
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On June 26 2014 16:08 Snickers wrote: Lol worst play of the game above . Ykz is slipping now that there is pressure. This doesn't look like an explanation to me. | ||
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On June 26 2014 16:19 Snickers wrote: Read the role of detective. Oh, I guess D1 you could have thought you were insane. Well, I suppose that's sensible. And if you were scum trying to fakeclaim, you might have picked more dead people "checks" so you'd be less useful. I'm going to read through your filter and see if your shit stacks up and makes sense with your reads though. With three green checks you've gotta either know you're sane or you're insane and getting fucked with by a framer. I'll unvote you for NOW ##unvote But you're about to get scrutinized like you've never been scrutinized in your life | ||
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On June 27 2014 03:02 Snickers wrote: Also just thought about something interesting. I am not 100% sure about this but lets consider something. YKZ hard pushes 27nb on day one. Relatively early. Same thing day two with VE. Now day three he has not pushed anyone yet, but only six hour till deadline? His biggest move so far was defending Lazer. Looking likely those two are scum. > claims to be cop > doesn't know what day it is, or who has been lynched on what day Amazingly, It's not even like he's scum for this, either. I'm sure scum would be keenly aware that it is in fact Day 4. I wish I could call Snickers scum. There just aren't words appropriate for a mafia game for me to say that would adequately define my opinion of a case against me based on the fact that D1 and D2 I mislynched 27nb and VE, and now on "D3" I'm defending LM. Like, not only is it not D3, but on D2 it was mderg that was lynched, and oh my god I can't even deal with this guy | ||
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On June 27 2014 03:30 Snickers wrote: lol thats the first decent size mistake i made in this game. A lot of a mistake than all the people that did not even read the roles. Anyway, day one hard pushed 27nb early Day two was hard pushing me I guess, will look into it when I get time before the lynch. Day three hard push ve early. Day four defend lazer early. And it is weird that Lazer says YKZ is town before me and chezinu. So, wait, your characterization of my D2 is that I pushed... you? not mderg? | ||
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On June 27 2014 03:34 Snickers wrote: No I do not get how you pick up on good things and know terms well but you can not read a post. The difference between you and koshi is that koshi is consistent and you are not. Well, believe it or not buddy I do my best to refine my reads based on new evidence. For example, I became willing to lynch LM when chez claimed a goon check on him, even though I thought LM was town. Then, when you claimed a green check on LM annd chez backtracked the goon check (it's still not clear to me-- maybe chez gets checks for goons and VTs as the same, "vanilla", or something), I am no longer willing to lynch LM. Is it weird that I was willing to vote for him? Yeah, but from my point of view, it's not. You're the one who had a green check on him, all I knew is I thought he was town, but if someone claims a red check on him, you gotta lynch him. That's just how it works. Now look, You have 3 green checks. Me, LM, Sloosh, right? If you're sane, we're all either town, godfathers, or scum who got framed. We could all be town, or up to 2 of us could be scum (assuming 3 total scum). If you're insane, then at least one of us must be town who got framed, since you have 3 checks. If both you and chez I am strongly inclined to believe scum has some sort of PR that interferes with checks. When I think about the possiblity of like a GF AND a Framer though I think that's a little silly. Goon/GF/Framer is a setup where 2 of the 3 scum are immune to the alignment cop, and 1 (or 2? does goon return vanilla or goon?) are immune to the role cop. Compared to Alignment Cop, Role Cop is kinda a shit role unless it distinguishes goons from VTs. What seems more likely would be Goon/GF-or-Framer/Foo, where Foo is like, another goon, or maybe a Medic or something just to keep scum on their toes. If a Role Cop checks a goon, does he get back a different result than if he checks a VT? | ||
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He's just decided to be flippant and unhelpful because he knows he's in no danger of being lynched today. He gave us his checks, so we can ignore him. I agree that the only really likely outcome for a true claim from Snickers is that he's the sane cop. I anticipate 1 incorrect check, from either a gf or a framer. | ||
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Lm I'm free in about an hour. Got some time around then? ##unvote ##vote lazermonkey | ||
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So, We have a few hours left and I think our best bet here is lynching LM. I say this because I think it's fairly unlikely that Chezinu or Snickers is fakeclaiming. Chez made it obvious he was the cop earlier, and a scum player wouldn't fakeclaim with three green checks on living players. If we remove Chezinu, YKZ, Snickers, LM, and Sloosh from the equation, that leaves us with Koshi and Release as "not checked by a cop" unless I'm misunderstanding chezinu. I'd really like to know exactly who he checked besides Artanis. That would really help, chezinu. With 2 cops we can reasonably assume 1 cop-fooling role, be it Godfather or Framer. Since LM returned "Goon" on night 1 or 3 (on night 2 chez checked artanis), and "Green" on night 2, it means either he was framed N2 and is scum, or he was framed N1 or N3 (whenever chez checked him) and is town. It's not possible he's the godfather, since the godfather would return a role that matches his alignment (ie, green and VT). The other possibility is that Snickers is the insane cop, in which case his green checks are red checks, and the reason there are 3 is that his target was framed 1+ times. This is actually not as unlikely as it sounds; scum could have easily framed me for alignment N1 and the remaining 2 scum couild be LM and Sloosh (assuming one of them wasn't framed as well). However, what this means is that no matter what, the scum role has to be Framer, not godfather. The Framer can change someone's appearance in terms of alignment as they see fit, and I assume this means both role and alignment, which means we can't REALLY capital-T Trust any of the checks. However, if we take a look at possibitiles, we see: 1. LM is a VT and he was framed N1 or N3 to look like a Goon. 2. LM is a VT and he was framed both N2 and N3 to look like a Goon, and Snickers is Insane 3. LM is scum and he was framed N2 to look green 4. LM is scum and Snickers is insane If he flips VT, I think 1 is most likely. scum wouldnt' frame the same guy over and over again, especially if he was town. This would make me and Sloosh more likely to be town imo since it means snickers is sane. However, if he flips scum, I think it's more likely thbat Snicjkers is insane. Again, outside of some specific moves (like if someone is an obvious "We need to check this guy" sort of guy) I expect scum would frame themselves rather than townies. A cop getting a green check is not catastrophic. green checks can be shot. A cop getting a red check, however, is very bad. Based on my assumption of "scum frames townies not as often as they frame themselves" we can guess snick sanity based on LM alignment. Lazermo, I'm here and we have 2 hours to keep things rolling. What do you think of this grouping of people? Do not lynch: Chez, YKZ, Snickers Let's look more at: Sloosh, Release Lynch: Koshi | ||
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On June 27 2014 06:50 Release wrote: What about the fact that others told him that he was wrong and he still insisted that he was right? And I *was* right. Yes, *this time* my heuristic failed, but FACT: it is right 90% of the time. I stand behidn the 27nb lynch. I am willing to use kenpachi rule and kenpachi rule extended, and yes, SOMETIMES, i lycnh town. I'll own that. Just because 27nb happened to flip town doesn't mean I'm wrong. The people who defended 27nb happened to be correct, but they were not right. In fact, I should take a look at who defended her for reasons that didn't make sense. Maybe scum looking to collect easy towncred, right? When it comes down to it, I get it, you aren't as experienced and knowledgeable as me, which means you don't get Kenpachi Rule or the fact that happening to be incorrect. Day 1, I caught scum 90% of the time. If I buy for $5 a bet that 90% of the time I get 10 dollars, and 10% of the time I lose 10 dollars. During that 10% of the time I'll look silly, but on average I will make money. And when I lose my money, you can laugh all you want but I made the right choice. I insist that I am right because I am right. | ||
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On June 27 2014 07:02 Chezinu wrote: Beginning of game, everyone said I was town. Then Art confirmed me town before he died. So, to be clear, you are not the rolecop, and therefore do not have a check on LM? | ||
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On June 27 2014 07:07 Release wrote: YKZ explain this to me: If you claim vt at the start of the day, and someone votes for you for some uncontiguous reason, does it still count as an appropriate application of the kenpachi rule? If you make your first post claiming VT, and the person votes you for some other thing in that post, and their entire case is based off of the first post you made in the game (even if it never references your VT claim), it falls under kenpachi rule extended. | ||
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On June 27 2014 07:07 Chezinu wrote: Yup! Couldn't resist the troll... but unlike Caller I will tell you before lynch goes through. If that's the case, I no longer see a reason to lynch LM. His lynch is no longer inevitable, so we must evit it. ##unvote ##vote Koshi Let's get Koshi. My case still stands: On June 25 2014 20:15 YouKnowZhou wrote: As has been mentioned, Koshi posts thhis: Then he votes LM, which makes sense When he starts mentioning VE again, he asks for reasons that VE is not mafia then votes VE based on my case, with almost no explanation Even at this point I consider Koshi to be chill. I don't mind this vote in a vacuum. The 180 on VE is surprising, but I've put in work. The problem here is that the explanation is lacking. Well, don't worry, Koshi shows up shortly thereafter with some mad explanation:(link). In his large post about 6 hours later, Koshi is writing about how LM is town and how he wants to lynch LM, rather than about VE. People call him out and he defends himself but never pushes VE futher. The lack of followup isn't a main poitn, actually. Really it's just the "vote VE, big case on LM". I don't like it. Koshi is imo a higher prio target than LM, whose latevote on D2 only really makes sense from a town perspective. ##vote Koshi and honestly, LM has a GREEN CHECK on him and nothing against that, and he made that latevote D2 that still makes NO SENSE unless he was town. Let's not lynch him, really. | ||
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Sloosh, your vote was on Koshi yesterday. Today, LM has a Green check on him, and now you're voting him over Koshi. Can you please explain why (before the flip)? | ||
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On June 27 2014 07:15 slOosh wrote: Ha! Like we were only voting Lazermonkey because of a red check. Priceless. Okay, but I want to be clear here: yesterday, your vote was on Koshi. You did switch back and forth between the two of them a bit, but in the end, your vote was on Koshi. Was it just for consolidation reasons, or did you actually think he was a better lynch than LM? What changed your mind today? Are you ignoring the green check (which is reasonable, but if you are, please own it)? | ||
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On June 27 2014 07:28 Snickers wrote: Woops I meant very sure Lazer is scum because of his erratic play as of late. Anyway time for me to post all of my current reads. Chezinu-town. YKZ-Very suspicious Lazer-scum Release-town Koshi-town Sloosh-town Also if I die tonight instead of chezinu, be very suspicious. Given that chezinu has in fact unclaimed, why be suspicious? You're the real cop, why wouldn't scum shoot you, especially with the medic dead? Or are you also fakeclaiming ._. On June 27 2014 07:21 slOosh wrote: I voted Koshi because I wanted to keep VE. I even said to Koshi that I thought he was town. Lazermonkey was always a better lynch. I'm dismissing the green check for now because of the possibility of framer / godfather. Fair enough. Besides you and me everyone else who ever voted Koshi is either dead or LM. And I also agree that we can reasonably dismiss insanity (of course you think this, as the other guy who got checked). However, the casual dismissal of the possibility of insanity means you think that I'm town, or you think I was framed/GF as well. I'm not accusing you of drawing associative tells between unflipped players, but until LM flips you personally should not be able to casually rule out the fact that snickers could be insane. After all, maybe LM and I are scum (you seem to think we're both scum) and you just got framed N3. That would actually explain things JUST as easily as LM being scum and being framed/gf, and it would explain things WAY easier than LM and I being scum and both of us being frame/gf in time with snickers' checks. The fact that you reject the simplest explanation that aligns with your scumreads on me and LM (snickers is insane, you got framed) makes me more suspect of your thought process. LM, I want you to look into Sloosh and see if what he has said has really made sense. D1 he voted VE, then near the end moved to 27nb. D2 he voted me, and parked there all day. D3 he voted me for a while then flopped between Kosh and LM. Today he has been reliably on you, LM. What do you think of him? You said you expected Release/Koshi to be scum over him (link) but also that he hard defended mderg without a clear good reason (link) which in my book would be a premium tier scumtell. Please elaborate, LM. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
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Right now we are 7 alive, with 2 scum. If we mislynch today we go into 3-2 lylo. If you have 3 scumreads and worried you might be wrong, and that 2 of them are town and 1 scum, the order you lynch them in matters a lot. So why are you eager to lynch me over Koshi today, but would reconsider if and only if LM flips town? I don't understand your thought process here. Please respond before the flip. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 27 2014 07:55 Lazermonkey wrote: And everyone is gone... Well, if it's just you and me, LM, do you have any questions or directions for me? You've seen my read list and you know what I'm thinking about, and I promise to 100% not ignore your input if you flip town. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 27 2014 08:01 Release wrote: At this point, since Koshi has not returned since the Korea Belgium game, and he is probably asleep (earlier than he has been in past days), his lack of input is more harmful as compared to you who is always around the deadline. I'd probably lynch Koshi first (but of course I would have to consider his next day input). Since the end of day 2, LM's play seems to be characteristic of try to get someone lynched (particularly SloOsh whom I thought was unreasonably thrown into his scumlist when Koshi questioned him, and when LM made his bigger post. You have been on my scumlist since Day 1. I thought that was awful play, and I still think it is awful play to ignore everyone and just hide behind "Kenpachi rule is God" So when you were talking about Koshi as a third consideration over an LM/YKZ lynch if one of the two of us flips town, what you really meant was that you wanted to lynch LM first, then decide between me and koshi? Or am I misunderstanding your priorities here? | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 27 2014 08:08 Release wrote: Lynch whichever of you I thought was scummier. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped town, then decide between Koshi and the other. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped mafia, then lynch the other. it just so happens to be that "scummier" is LM today, and "the other" is by default, you (YKZ) Ok, I see what you're saying. I'm just confused because 2 hours ago you said this: On June 27 2014 05:42 Release wrote: Koshi is the mafia candidate outside you and YKZ that would become a lynch candidate if you or YKZ flip town. His play this game has not been particularly good (and at times absolutely useless). However, I still think that his play has been more meaningful than your's. But this makes sense. In your mind, you are thinking "I expect YKZ and LM to be scum together. A large amount of my scumread on them is an associative tell between unflipped players. If one of them flips town, my scumread on the other becomes weaker, more on par with my scumread on Koshi-- so I'll need to re-evaluate." Is that accurate? | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 27 2014 08:06 Snickers wrote: So did I post my reads too soon? Owell hopefully we got another medic to protect me. Anyway this game would be alot easier if town played well. And seriously when are you guys going to read the rules. There could be two medics. If there are two medics in a game where scum has 1 kp I will figuratively eat my hat. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 27 2014 08:12 Snickers wrote: OK everyone that is in this thread at this moment. Anwser this for me please. What is the likliness that all of scum voted together day one. If Lazer flips town, that is why I think release is scum. Also if release we then lynch release sloosh is probably scum for his ding ding ding comment. Sloosh did seem suspicious to me becasue of his votes. Already answered this question for you: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=51#1007 On June 24 2014 03:57 YouKnowZhou wrote: Here's my VCA for the end of D1. I've highlighed our 3 flips that we'd have, which is 27nb and gk for town, and mderg for scum. D1 final votecount 27ninjabunnies (7): YouKnowZhou, Artanis[Xp], mderg, Chezinu, Koshi, slOosh, goodkarma YouKnowZhou (1): Release mderg (4): Snickers, VisceraEyes, 27ninjabunnies, Lazermonkey Two big wagons. One on a town, one on a scum. The wagons are 3 votes apart, so with 2 or 3 scum we can expect they have the option to split their votes rather than all vote 27nb to protect mderg. It's worth noting that the gk shot is suggestive that scum wasn't too worried about mderg during N1. If the scumteam was all on 27nb (say there are 3 scum) then they would imo be worried about mderg and be less likely shoot a big mderg defender, gk. This would be because they'd see that mderg has basically half of the town's votes on him and only scum voting could save him. if they had 1 or 2 votes on the mderg wagon, they see it as scum-driven and are not worried about mderg getting lynched d2 so they shoot gk n1. All this, however, is only in probabilities, not absolutes. I do not typically consider VCA to be a major component of my cases, and it's certainly not the kind of thing to convince me VE is scuml; my case against VE is here: (link). However, if this is the kind of thing you like (VCA and nk speculation), you can infer from the gk kill that scum is probably not concerned too much with shooting people killing mderg, which means there probably were not 4 townies voting mderg, which means VE is more likely to be scum. But seriously though, read my case (link) tl;dr it is unlikely that scum were all on the 27nb wagon | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
Don't give up. Keep talking. Keep giving reads. We need to play on after you're dead. If you're town, don't be mad. be vigilant. Tell me something I acn use tomorrow; anything. On June 27 2014 08:21 Release wrote: Not quite. It's not that my scumread on the other becomes weaker. It's the fact that there are 2 mafia left. It is stupid for me not to consider who the other mafia might be, therefore I must decide between the two remaining mafia. I think you might be reading too much into "I would probably lynch Koshi tomorrow." That is contingent upon his contributing nothing at the end of today and not doing anything tomorrow. Like I said: "(but of course I would have to consider his next day input)." Fair enough. Take a moment, if you would, to look at how Koshi and how LM have played today. Has LM tried to get basically anyone who's not him lynched? Yeah, but I can't blame him. But at least Koshi is giving reads. He wants town to go onw hen he dies. And Koshji? Koshi has done literally nothing but complain about possibly being lynched, defending himself, voting LM,a nd as asoon as it's clear his life is no longer in imminent danger, Koshi is GONE. He doesn't care about what happens. Yeah, he's probably REALLY actually watching soccer games and stuff, but look. The guy only defends himself and gets pissy about potentially getting lynched. Who here has been the better townie? The answer is LM. We should lynch Koshi today. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 27 2014 08:21 Release wrote: Not quite. It's not that my scumread on the other becomes weaker. It's the fact that there are 2 mafia left. It is stupid for me not to consider who the other mafia might be, therefore I must decide between the two remaining mafia. I think you might be reading too much into "I would probably lynch Koshi tomorrow." That is contingent upon his contributing nothing at the end of today and not doing anything tomorrow. Like I said: "(but of course I would have to consider his next day input)." Ok, I understand. You're saying "I want to lynch one of YKZ/LM, but if we hit LYLO we need to reconsider everything and not fuck up". That makes total sense to me. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 27 2014 08:34 Snickers wrote: So anyone thought that YKZ is trying to save Lazer so much because if lazer flips scum we would all most likely go after him. His push style has found a weakness. Also the comment sloosh made about we will take about it later is prty scummy. One of the many reasons I am lynching Lazer. Do you honestly think I wouldn't have bussed Lazer by this point as scum? ._. Look man, I'm here to talk with Lazer because I have a townread on him. I'm pretty sure he's gonna flip town and tomorrow we're at LYLO. We need to pump this guy for all the info we can get out of him in the next half hour before he flips. Obviously none of you are even remotely interested in saving him, and if my goal was simply to look good, I'd find great reasons to vote LM. If I were scum with him, I'd bus him, win solo, and then spend every game bragging about how good I am at scum and how I'm willing to bus awful teammates. When it comes down to it, LM is likely to flip town. You guys are all just wrong and I'm right. This lynch is my fault for failing to convince you guys, since I'm the smartest player here. The responsibility falls solely on me, the town leader, for failing to corral the necessary votes to save LM. LM: I am sorry. I really am. But you can't afford to dispair now. Keep talking. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 27 2014 08:02 Lazermonkey wrote: I think the list is good. The only thing is that atm I'm not sure Koshi is the best lynch. Release and SlOosh recent actions make them look really bad. I would probably say that Release is on par with Koshi for best lynch with SlOosh slightly behind. I undertand what you're sayinga bout Release and Sloosh, but look at it this way. Right nwo, this wagon has basically been set in stone all day. Underailable, as it were. Release and sloosh at least are hanging out and chatting. They may wrongly think the two of us are scum, but the fact of the matter is, as scum they wouldn't feel obligated to hang out here and talk with us. It doesn't automatically make them town, but look at Kosh. He clearly is satisfied with this lynch and doesn't even want to try to move the twon forward. He doesn't stand out in your mind as doing bad things because he's not doing anything at all. When you take into account the deafening silence of the Koshi, and the fact that most of his effort is spent defending himself and whining, isn't he the most likely to flip scum? | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 27 2014 08:41 Lazermonkey wrote: The fact that Release and SlOosh simply did nothing is also telling I'd say. No matter how much scum you think I am, there is still a point in keeping up the work. It seemed like SlOosh even wanted to apear contributing by pushing me when it was obvious I was getting lynched. I said numerous times that I was cool with dying. I was giving out reads and asked them to ask question but SlOosh (and Release) just didn't give a fuck at all. OK, but at least these guys are actively not giving a fuck. Look at it like this. Koshi in the past 24 hours has: asked chez for checks, defended against my case on him, voted you, said he was a vt, asked a question, and that's it. That's all he's done. sloosh and release may be grating on the nerves but at least they're playing the game. Koshi seems less suspicious simply because he's posting less; an excellent strategem | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 27 2014 08:45 Snickers wrote: Ok since you two are so sure that each other are town, Why not be voting release instead of koshi? I do not understand that. I have been here giving Lazer a fair chance I feel and it is seriously annoying when he says I have bad logic. I have been the most logical person in this game. Notice how late I threw my vote on him. Within two hours of deadline. I am almost 100% positive you are both scum since you are voting koshi instead of release. You guys probably thought koshi would be the easier to get followers. Yeah dude there's like basically no chance LM isn't getting lynched today. Look, LM is alive for 10 minutes. ask him a question and assume he's town for 10 damn minutes, and play the game. If he flips scum, you lose nothing. If hef lips town, you get the opinion of a conftown on something. Do it. You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. On June 27 2014 08:48 Release wrote: And you only bring this up now? I've maintained that I thought he was mafia throughout the game. Yeah, you just love my cases too much not to vote VE with me You think he was waiting to see which way the wind was blowing? | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 27 2014 08:51 Snickers wrote: You guys have no clue how to think logically if you ask me. After the game, I should post the general idea of a philosophy paper I wrote my senior year in high school. You guys assume way too much. That is almost rule one when it comes to logically thinking. You may be scum so this post is pointless but w/e. Yeah well I didn't ask you. When I want literally the worst possible opinion that a human being can make, I'll ask you your opinion on my logic or philosophy. If you want my opinion, I'll send you a stick figure I drew in elementary school, I'm sure you'll have lots to learn from it since it's so much higher level than you. Seriously dude, interact with LM and pretend he's town for like 7 freakin minutes will you? | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 27 2014 08:55 Snickers wrote: Seriously dude, you aint funny. The panic is real. 4 minutes. LM could flip town. this is a guy you have a green check on. Just ask him one real question, something, anything. he'll be conftown soon. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 27 2014 08:56 Snickers wrote: Lazer what do you want me to do? And here is my last request. Why are you voting koshi over release? he's voting koshi because I am. He thinks release is a better lynch, but he'll do anything to up his chance of survival, which is still 0. haven't you been reading the thread? | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
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YouKnowZhou
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New night, same deal: leave me questions and they'll be answered by the end of the night. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
Look guys, there are a lot of things that could have gone down with night actions, and maybe it's possible Sloosh is the GF or he was a scum player who was framed, or some other weird set of circumstances (snickers insane and LM and I were framed, etc). But when it comes down to it, we should not be lynching into green checks today. We shouldn't have lynched into green checks tomorrow. Assuming there's no cc for snickers (and at this point, I'd be pretty surprised if there was, and suspicious of any cc of snickers), we should not lynch into his green checks today, and we shouldn't lync snicks. I've decided we should lynch Release over Koshi, for reasons I'll explain later in this post. It looks like during the night people (including people who thought I was scum defending scum LM...) have decided I am scum and want to lynch me. Here's what I gotta say to anyone who seriously wants to lynch me: You're welcome to try. You will fail. I'm better than you; I'm more convincing, I'm more experienced, I'm one of the best players on TL Mafia, and this is LYLO. I won't lie down and say "well, treat me as conftown after I flip" because if I flip, it's game over. The fact of the matter is, I'm an extremely convincing player, and I'm only MORE convincing when I can use real facts to defend myself and accuse my enemies. Chapter 1 - All Systems Green First off, here are reasons not to lynch me or sloosh tomorrow (assuming snicks gets shot, which he will). Imagine for a moment, you're not in this game, but you're observing it. It's D4, and the cop reveals 3 green checks. For some reason, the entire game decides to lynch one of his green checks, and one of his other green checks hard defends the other one to the point that people start thinking the 2nd guy is scum too. The first guy flips scum, and D5 the cop is dead and people want to lynch the 2nd greencheck now. If you saw town systematically lynching through the greenchecks of the flipped cop, your first thought would be "wat". Your second thought would be "man, I wonder what these guys are thinking. There's no way I could possibly be so awful when I play this game". The fact of the matter is, if you lynch me, you will be that town who decided the best pool of people to lynch into on D4 and D5 LYLO was the pool of people the cop got green on. You will never live it down. In retrospect, lynching VE was a mistake for a number of reasons, but the biggest of them was that despite being pigheaded, strident, and generally disagreeable and ragey, VE is in fact highly intelligent. Sure, he didn't like LM, but I am sure if he were alive his advice wouldn't be "let's systematically lynch the greenchecks" because honestly that plan is awful. "Now wait, Blazinghand", you say, "I'm not saying we should lynch all the greenchecks. I'm just saying that yesterday we needed to lynch LM because he was scummy, and you were scummy for defendhing him, your scumbuddy. Now, he flipped town, so you're scummy for defending someone who was lynched and flipped town. You HAPPEN to have a greencheck on you, but that won't stop us from lynching you." Ok, look, you can have whatever reason you want for systematically lynching through the greenchecks. Maybe you think Snickers is insane, which is possible. But boy, after the first one flips green, you should probably stop and think "maybe, just maybe, we're totally wrong about this thing. Maybe it's actually a bad idea to do this." I'll admit, on some level I want to lynch slOosh. He could be scum. But the fact of the matter is, there's a green check on him. If it comes down to it, we can deal with him in 3-player LYLO after lynching his buddy. If release flips GF, then we can be assured that both Sloosh and I are town, since this game is exceedingly unlikely to have both GF *and* Framer (since cop would be effectively useless, and anti-role, then). If release flips Framer, then we can cast doubt on the green checks for reasons related to him potentially framing me or Sloosh as scum. If Release flips Goon, then the last scum is either GF or Framer and we also probably can't trust the checks. Do you see what I'm getting at here? Unless you believe in a BH/Sloosh scumteam, there's at least one scum amongst Koshi/Release, and if we lynch that scum first (similar odds there), then we can go into LYLO potentially with tons of info. Our odds aren't worse, and they're potentially much, much better. I'd like to point out the non-trivial chance that Me and Sloosh are both town and the green checks (which so far have been 100% accurate) are accurate on us. Don't lynch into the green checks tomorrow. At the endgame, you know what's gonna happen, right? VE will be in here and say "wow, BH is such an idiot for lynching me, because without me there was nobody to tell town not to be idiotic. somehow you jubjubs lynched only into the cop's green checks? Are you kidding me? And BH, you talk about how "pro" you are at mafia but you and one of your top townreads got lynched while you had green checks on you. I can't believe this." And he'll be right, too. As the only experienced, intelligent player here, it's my job to lead the town. I failed yesterday, but I won't fail today. Intermezzo - my townreads Snickers: we all know snickers is town unless cced so we're not lynching him, ever. Sloosh: although the VCA wiggles its eyebrows suggestively, there's a greencheck on this guy. Also, despite whatever uselessness he does, I feel like his awfulness is distinct enough he's likely to be town. Also, that little VCA chart thing impressed me. Sloosh is in zero danger of being lynched. If he's scum, he doesn't need to post a freakin VCA chart, all he has to do is yell that I'm scum (as he had been doing for days...) and hang out and post a tiny bit. Mostly though it's the green check. Chezinu: as a matter of principle I don't try to make reads on chez and just treat him as town. If I'm the cop, I check him. The fact that snickers never checked chezinu but instead checked like sloosh, is frankly awful. If our blues misplay and fail to shoot or check chezinu all game, I'm willing to accept a loss any time he rolls scum. I don't even want to policy this guy ever because honestly there are bigger fish. I will not lynch chezinu unless someone claims a scum check on him, or it's like 2-1 lylo and there's a conftown, and it's me vs chez or something like that where I know he's scum. Chapter Two - Vote Count Anal Sloosh, like the reliable greencheck he is, provided a color-coded VCA chart for us. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22454200 The Day 1 lynch is pretty straightforward. 7 votes on 27nb, 3 on mderg, 1 on me. Snickers we can consider town because of his cop claim, so we have to ask ourselves: Did all scum unnecessarily vote together on 27nb? Sure, I was pushing that wagon all day and maybe mderg hopped one arly ish, but if the third scum is Chez, Koshi, or Sloosh, they really did NOT have to be on 27nb to save snickers. no, in my opinion the 7-4-1 result indicates a wagon that did not need all 3 scum to be on it. Even in the event of all 3 scum being on 27nb, I expect at least one scum to not commit to lynching a VT over his buddy when it's so lopsided and jump off. Since everyone on mderg is town, we can reasonably expect Release to be scum from D1 VCA. Looking at the D2 wagon, I see two possibilties. Since it would have been trivial for Koshi, Release, or Chez to jump on to me (maybe not in terms of explanation, but that 1 vote would have swung it even without LM voting), I immediatley wonder if sloosh and snickers were somehow scum and voted together with mderg to try to save him. That being said, Snickers is town and there's a greencheck against sloosh. If I were scum going into D2 I'd want to bus mderg, as he was the counterwagon to a D1 wagon on a VT, and was pretty close in the running. None of the people who voted mderg D1 are dead during D2, except of course 27nb, so you can expect him to at least be a candidate D2. So who was added to the mderg wagon, who voted mderg D2 and not D1, who might have been scum looking for a chance to bus? Well, I see Release and Koshi on that wagon, which again lines up with what I said in the preamble. These guys saw an opportunity to bus a goon and went for it. This is exceptionally true for Release. Release voted me D1, when I wasn't a legit wagon, instead of mderg, who was. On D2, you see Release voting mderg, instead of me, the guy he wanted to lynch D1. Remember, during D1 27nb had not yet flipped town, so during D2 Release should have been more suspicious of me. Yet he moves his vote to mderg, who is probably on the way out as the counterwagon to 27nb D1. In my opinion, this discrepancy in voting indicates that Release's motivations are not thought through from a perspective of "I want to lynch YKZ" but "I want to lynch mderg, but only when it's clear he's going to be lynched". The only part that doesn't fit for me is why Release wouldn't swap over to me, given that he voted me D2. I really think he'd take the opportunity to save his teammate and look consistent with his D1 play. Still, There were SOME shenannies around the deadline, but he must have known mderg would vote me. The evidence of the green check by snickers on sloosh is bigger imo than the evidence of "scum on the mderg wagon could have swapped". Perhaps it would look too bad to swap from a scum wagon to a town wagon late in the day, and they figured mderg was going down eventually anyways. D3 and D4 were both pretty onesided. To all of you who voted for LM D4, it's worth noting that Artanis and VE, whose votes couldn't swing the wagon anyways during D3, ended up voting Koshi over LM, yet somehow we ended up lynching LM who had a greencheck on him ._. Coda - From Beyond the Grave Due to VCA from D1, I believe Release to be a better target for today's lynch than Koshi. However, I would like to bring in some support from Lazermonkey, who I think we can all agree is town (I assume; a green check wouldn't convince you "players" (I use the term generously) that he was town, perhaps a townflip from the mod may not). Here, briefly, is LM's case on Release, supplemented with my own words I've encorporated phrases from the following posts, to make one hybrid case. I find Snickers fake-claiming unlikely. Partly because of what YKZ pointed out earlier and partly why would you claim to have a town read on me at this state of the game as scum? Chez and Snickers are likely town (and also are the guys that will get shot, thus wasting lynches on them is bad). SlOosh I dislike but his green check means that he is likely town. This leaves Release and Koshi. On June 27 2014 06:25 Release wrote: Because it feels like I make a post then everyone ignores it (and therefore my posts are meaningless). When someone mentions my name, they want my opinion and therefore my posts are not meaningless. Interpret that however you please. Pretty much YKZ's D1 is what makes him scum. Because when the thread is filled with tunneling, OMGUS, and is primarily focused on a single battle, asking questions leads us to consider other options. I agree that his passiveness is noteworthy, but even with that, I do not think that it outweighs what I perceive to be his information-gathering agenda. + Show Spoiler + having said that, if he says absolutely nothing until the end of the day and you do flip town, that would make me feel that he is suspicious to similar levels as that which I felt about Snickers D2 (which in hindsight was just timing issues). Afk complete peace out is not tolerable, even more so than 48 hour dinner since YKZ actually did something prior to D2 deadline First part seems like you are justifying the fact that you aren't giving out reads in a very bad way. That is at least how I interpret it. So basically, YKZ being wrong=>YKZ is scum. Do you really believe this logic yourself. Also, have you even considered what he has done since then?`He was the fucking dude that got mderg lynched. Are you not reading or refusing to understand? I never said that asking questions and such was bad. It seems like you're really stretching to give a scumread and not be helpful and at the same time call other people scum. Look at it this way: If you were town, you' dbe willing to play the game. Yet here you are, stonewalling my precious time left alive. Now that Chezinu has unclaimed... Chezinu fake-claimed so I don't have a red check on myself. Therefore, you should unvote me. The list for people that we are allowed to chose from (to kill) is -Release -Koshi These guys are most likely the scum. On June 27 2014 08:01 Release wrote: At this point, since Koshi has not returned since the Korea Belgium game, and he is probably asleep (earlier than he has been in past days), his lack of input is more harmful as compared to you who is always around the deadline. I'd probably lynch Koshi first (but of course I would have to consider his next day input). Since the end of day 2, LM's play seems to be characteristic of try to get someone lynched (particularly SloOsh whom I thought was unreasonably thrown into his scumlist when Koshi questioned him, and when LM made his bigger post. You have been on my scumlist since Day 1. I thought that was awful play, and I still think it is awful play to ignore everyone and just hide behind "Kenpachi rule is God" Yhea, getting people lycnhed is totally not something town would want to do.. Owait. This push on YKZ is awful. That's just how the guy plays, he wants to lynch his targets. We all do, youc an't call him scum for that. bad reasoning. You're scum. Looks like I won't live. I'm honestly pretty sad right now. I know that there are 2 scum on my wagon but it also means that there are 3 dumb townies on my wagon as well. As for my wills: -Anyone thinking that YKZ could be scum after this is so so so so so wrong. And stupid. -Snickers, just do whatever YKZ tells you to. Your logic sucks but thats something we can take in postgame. -Koshi/Release is the next lynch. Maybe SlOosh if he really fucks over. -Chezinu and Snickers town. Why Release? The fact that Release simply did nothing is also telling I'd say. No matter how much scum you think I am, there is still a point in keeping up the work. It seemed like SlOosh even wanted to apear contributing by pushing me when it was obvious I was getting lynched. I said numerous times that I was cool with dying. I was giving out reads and asked them to ask question but Release just didn't give a fuck at all. He didn't ask questions, let me speak, etc. He just wanted me to flip so he could get to lylo. @YKZ: I mean, I would like to believe that about Koshi. But he could just be bad town. Like I said, I don't really know Koshi's meta but I really think you should check him. Does he generally play like this, ie super defending and passive? Or is he actually good? Also, while Koshi is lurking SlOosh and Release seems to be trying to contribute but in reality just tunnel. I still think Release is just as scummy as Koshi. He's the best lynch for tomorrow + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=73#1459 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=76#1506 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=78#1548 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=79#1565 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=79#1569 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=79#1572 | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
no wait let's lynch Release. ##vote Release | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
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YouKnowZhou
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On June 27 2014 09:27 slOosh wrote: I believe a YKZ lynch is most sensible yes. While I was wrong on Lazermonkey, I believe he is wrong on YKZ. There is plenty of reason to hard defend a lynch on town if the lynch will still go through. On June 28 2014 13:04 slOosh wrote: ##Vote YouKnowZhou Chezinu plz This from a guy who thought an LM/YKZ scumteam was so likely. People even drew associative tells! Though did it only briefly. Look, sloosh, you me and chez need to vote together. If one of us doesn't vote with the other 2, we lose. This means you need to get in here and explain your case in enough summarized detail for chez to understand it (since you must have a townread on chez). This will give me an opportunity to respond. I'll convince you I'm town, and we'll lynch release. So please; elaborate on "Chezinu plz" for me and chez. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 28 2014 10:33 Chezinu wrote: PS: Can I have another tldr Chez tier? Cause yeah... I won't read.. I never read snicker's block either. >Release' D1 vote opts out of the discourse. It's also unlikely all scum voted 27nb D1. Release voted "not 27nb" but also voted "not mderg" (you'd expect at least 1 scum not to be on that 27nb wagon, since not all 3 were needed to save mderg; every player currently alive voted for 27nb day 1 except release, who voted ykz) >Release vote on mderg D2 makes sense as a bus. Release voted YKZ D1, but on D2 he moves to mderg even though it's between YKZ and mderg. Also, for a while it was between YKZ and all kinds of other players >Release ignores and basically doesn't engage with the dying LM despite being in thread >Some Process of Elimination stuff: Don't lynch BH/Sloosh because of green checks; don't lynch chez. Between Koshi and Release Release makes more sense since he wasn't on the 27nb wagon D1 | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 28 2014 16:03 slOosh wrote: So you are saying Koshi is the last scum? Why the switch to Release all of a sudden after going on about Koshi? On June 28 2014 08:59 YouKnowZhou wrote: Preamble - Throwning down Look guys, there are a lot of things that could have gone down with night actions, and maybe it's possible Sloosh is the GF or he was a scum player who was framed, or some other weird set of circumstances (snickers insane and LM and I were framed, etc). But when it comes down to it, we should not be lynching into green checks today. We shouldn't have lynched into green checks tomorrow. Assuming there's no cc for snickers (and at this point, I'd be pretty surprised if there was, and suspicious of any cc of snickers), we should not lynch into his green checks today, and we shouldn't lync snicks. I've decided we should lynch Release over Koshi, for reasons I'll explain later in this post. It looks like during the night people (including people who thought I was scum defending scum LM...) have decided I am scum and want to lynch me. Here's what I gotta say to anyone who seriously wants to lynch me: You're welcome to try. You will fail. I'm better than you; I'm more convincing, I'm more experienced, I'm one of the best players on TL Mafia, and this is LYLO. I won't lie down and say "well, treat me as conftown after I flip" because if I flip, it's game over. The fact of the matter is, I'm an extremely convincing player, and I'm only MORE convincing when I can use real facts to defend myself and accuse my enemies. Chapter 1 - All Systems Green First off, here are reasons not to lynch me or sloosh tomorrow (assuming snicks gets shot, which he will). Imagine for a moment, you're not in this game, but you're observing it. It's D4, and the cop reveals 3 green checks. For some reason, the entire game decides to lynch one of his green checks, and one of his other green checks hard defends the other one to the point that people start thinking the 2nd guy is scum too. The first guy flips scum, and D5 the cop is dead and people want to lynch the 2nd greencheck now. If you saw town systematically lynching through the greenchecks of the flipped cop, your first thought would be "wat". Your second thought would be "man, I wonder what these guys are thinking. There's no way I could possibly be so awful when I play this game". The fact of the matter is, if you lynch me, you will be that town who decided the best pool of people to lynch into on D4 and D5 LYLO was the pool of people the cop got green on. You will never live it down. In retrospect, lynching VE was a mistake for a number of reasons, but the biggest of them was that despite being pigheaded, strident, and generally disagreeable and ragey, VE is in fact highly intelligent. Sure, he didn't like LM, but I am sure if he were alive his advice wouldn't be "let's systematically lynch the greenchecks" because honestly that plan is awful. "Now wait, Blazinghand", you say, "I'm not saying we should lynch all the greenchecks. I'm just saying that yesterday we needed to lynch LM because he was scummy, and you were scummy for defendhing him, your scumbuddy. Now, he flipped town, so you're scummy for defending someone who was lynched and flipped town. You HAPPEN to have a greencheck on you, but that won't stop us from lynching you." Ok, look, you can have whatever reason you want for systematically lynching through the greenchecks. Maybe you think Snickers is insane, which is possible. But boy, after the first one flips green, you should probably stop and think "maybe, just maybe, we're totally wrong about this thing. Maybe it's actually a bad idea to do this." I'll admit, on some level I want to lynch slOosh. He could be scum. But the fact of the matter is, there's a green check on him. If it comes down to it, we can deal with him in 3-player LYLO after lynching his buddy. If release flips GF, then we can be assured that both Sloosh and I are town, since this game is exceedingly unlikely to have both GF *and* Framer (since cop would be effectively useless, and anti-role, then). If release flips Framer, then we can cast doubt on the green checks for reasons related to him potentially framing me or Sloosh as scum. If Release flips Goon, then the last scum is either GF or Framer and we also probably can't trust the checks. Do you see what I'm getting at here? Unless you believe in a BH/Sloosh scumteam, there's at least one scum amongst Koshi/Release, and if we lynch that scum first (similar odds there), then we can go into LYLO potentially with tons of info. Our odds aren't worse, and they're potentially much, much better. I'd like to point out the non-trivial chance that Me and Sloosh are both town and the green checks (which so far have been 100% accurate) are accurate on us. Don't lynch into the green checks tomorrow. At the endgame, you know what's gonna happen, right? VE will be in here and say "wow, BH is such an idiot for lynching me, because without me there was nobody to tell town not to be idiotic. somehow you jubjubs lynched only into the cop's green checks? Are you kidding me? And BH, you talk about how "pro" you are at mafia but you and one of your top townreads got lynched while you had green checks on you. I can't believe this." And he'll be right, too. As the only experienced, intelligent player here, it's my job to lead the town. I failed yesterday, but I won't fail today. Intermezzo - my townreads Snickers: we all know snickers is town unless cced so we're not lynching him, ever. Sloosh: although the VCA wiggles its eyebrows suggestively, there's a greencheck on this guy. Also, despite whatever uselessness he does, I feel like his awfulness is distinct enough he's likely to be town. Also, that little VCA chart thing impressed me. Sloosh is in zero danger of being lynched. If he's scum, he doesn't need to post a freakin VCA chart, all he has to do is yell that I'm scum (as he had been doing for days...) and hang out and post a tiny bit. Mostly though it's the green check. Chezinu: as a matter of principle I don't try to make reads on chez and just treat him as town. If I'm the cop, I check him. The fact that snickers never checked chezinu but instead checked like sloosh, is frankly awful. If our blues misplay and fail to shoot or check chezinu all game, I'm willing to accept a loss any time he rolls scum. I don't even want to policy this guy ever because honestly there are bigger fish. I will not lynch chezinu unless someone claims a scum check on him, or it's like 2-1 lylo and there's a conftown, and it's me vs chez or something like that where I know he's scum. Chapter Two - Vote Count Anal Sloosh, like the reliable greencheck he is, provided a color-coded VCA chart for us. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22454200 The Day 1 lynch is pretty straightforward. 7 votes on 27nb, 3 on mderg, 1 on me. Snickers we can consider town because of his cop claim, so we have to ask ourselves: Did all scum unnecessarily vote together on 27nb? Sure, I was pushing that wagon all day and maybe mderg hopped one arly ish, but if the third scum is Chez, Koshi, or Sloosh, they really did NOT have to be on 27nb to save snickers. no, in my opinion the 7-4-1 result indicates a wagon that did not need all 3 scum to be on it. Even in the event of all 3 scum being on 27nb, I expect at least one scum to not commit to lynching a VT over his buddy when it's so lopsided and jump off. Since everyone on mderg is town, we can reasonably expect Release to be scum from D1 VCA. Looking at the D2 wagon, I see two possibilties. Since it would have been trivial for Koshi, Release, or Chez to jump on to me (maybe not in terms of explanation, but that 1 vote would have swung it even without LM voting), I immediatley wonder if sloosh and snickers were somehow scum and voted together with mderg to try to save him. That being said, Snickers is town and there's a greencheck against sloosh. If I were scum going into D2 I'd want to bus mderg, as he was the counterwagon to a D1 wagon on a VT, and was pretty close in the running. None of the people who voted mderg D1 are dead during D2, except of course 27nb, so you can expect him to at least be a candidate D2. So who was added to the mderg wagon, who voted mderg D2 and not D1, who might have been scum looking for a chance to bus? Well, I see Release and Koshi on that wagon, which again lines up with what I said in the preamble. These guys saw an opportunity to bus a goon and went for it. This is exceptionally true for Release. Release voted me D1, when I wasn't a legit wagon, instead of mderg, who was. On D2, you see Release voting mderg, instead of me, the guy he wanted to lynch D1. Remember, during D1 27nb had not yet flipped town, so during D2 Release should have been more suspicious of me. Yet he moves his vote to mderg, who is probably on the way out as the counterwagon to 27nb D1. In my opinion, this discrepancy in voting indicates that Release's motivations are not thought through from a perspective of "I want to lynch YKZ" but "I want to lynch mderg, but only when it's clear he's going to be lynched". The only part that doesn't fit for me is why Release wouldn't swap over to me, given that he voted me D2. I really think he'd take the opportunity to save his teammate and look consistent with his D1 play. Still, There were SOME shenannies around the deadline, but he must have known mderg would vote me. The evidence of the green check by snickers on sloosh is bigger imo than the evidence of "scum on the mderg wagon could have swapped". Perhaps it would look too bad to swap from a scum wagon to a town wagon late in the day, and they figured mderg was going down eventually anyways. D3 and D4 were both pretty onesided. To all of you who voted for LM D4, it's worth noting that Artanis and VE, whose votes couldn't swing the wagon anyways during D3, ended up voting Koshi over LM, yet somehow we ended up lynching LM who had a greencheck on him ._. Coda - From Beyond the Grave Due to VCA from D1, I believe Release to be a better target for today's lynch than Koshi. However, I would like to bring in some support from Lazermonkey, who I think we can all agree is town (I assume; a green check wouldn't convince you "players" (I use the term generously) that he was town, perhaps a townflip from the mod may not). Here, briefly, is LM's case on Release, supplemented with my own words I've encorporated phrases from the following posts, to make one hybrid case. I find Snickers fake-claiming unlikely. Partly because of what YKZ pointed out earlier and partly why would you claim to have a town read on me at this state of the game as scum? Chez and Snickers are likely town (and also are the guys that will get shot, thus wasting lynches on them is bad). SlOosh I dislike but his green check means that he is likely town. This leaves Release and Koshi. First part seems like you are justifying the fact that you aren't giving out reads in a very bad way. That is at least how I interpret it. So basically, YKZ being wrong=>YKZ is scum. Do you really believe this logic yourself. Also, have you even considered what he has done since then?`He was the fucking dude that got mderg lynched. Are you not reading or refusing to understand? I never said that asking questions and such was bad. It seems like you're really stretching to give a scumread and not be helpful and at the same time call other people scum. Look at it this way: If you were town, you' dbe willing to play the game. Yet here you are, stonewalling my precious time left alive. Now that Chezinu has unclaimed... Chezinu fake-claimed so I don't have a red check on myself. Therefore, you should unvote me. The list for people that we are allowed to chose from (to kill) is -Release -Koshi These guys are most likely the scum. Yhea, getting people lycnhed is totally not something town would want to do.. Owait. This push on YKZ is awful. That's just how the guy plays, he wants to lynch his targets. We all do, youc an't call him scum for that. bad reasoning. You're scum. Looks like I won't live. I'm honestly pretty sad right now. I know that there are 2 scum on my wagon but it also means that there are 3 dumb townies on my wagon as well. As for my wills: -Anyone thinking that YKZ could be scum after this is so so so so so wrong. And stupid. -Snickers, just do whatever YKZ tells you to. Your logic sucks but thats something we can take in postgame. -Koshi/Release is the next lynch. Maybe SlOosh if he really fucks over. -Chezinu and Snickers town. Why Release? The fact that Release simply did nothing is also telling I'd say. No matter how much scum you think I am, there is still a point in keeping up the work. It seemed like SlOosh even wanted to apear contributing by pushing me when it was obvious I was getting lynched. I said numerous times that I was cool with dying. I was giving out reads and asked them to ask question but Release just didn't give a fuck at all. He didn't ask questions, let me speak, etc. He just wanted me to flip so he could get to lylo. @YKZ: I mean, I would like to believe that about Koshi. But he could just be bad town. Like I said, I don't really know Koshi's meta but I really think you should check him. Does he generally play like this, ie super defending and passive? Or is he actually good? Also, while Koshi is lurking SlOosh and Release seems to be trying to contribute but in reality just tunnel. I still think Release is just as scummy as Koshi. He's the best lynch for tomorrow + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=73#1459 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=76#1506 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=78#1548 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=79#1565 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=79#1569 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=79#1572 But, to be more specific, because of Release' day 1 vote, and the swap from voting me D1 to voting mderg D2 in a mderg-vs-me race, when I should have looked worse D2 than I did D1. Remember what I did D2? I took a 48 hour dinner after lynching a townie. Not sure how this convinced Release, who was happy throwing away his vote on a non-wagon on me D1, to vote to lynch mderg over me. Obviously he pretended to be convinced by the case, but this reversal doesn't make sense. Although Koshi has been uniformly terrible and his actions during the VE/LM debacle are pretty awful, and he's been afk, it doesn't make sense to me that all 3 scum woudl vote 27nb D1, which means Release is more likely to be scum. I also ned to look over release' long back-and-forths with me throughout the VE lynch day, I wonder if they make sense from a town perspective. In any case, I'm not lynching into the green checks, and I'm not lynching Chez. The VCA for D1 and D2 and the words of LM that we know were town-motivated make me want to lynch Release. But hey, I've done nothing here but repeat the case I quoted. I recommend you check it out. Remember, Sloosh, if you think Chez is town, you need to convince him to vote me with you if you want to lynch scum-me. It's 3 town, 2 scum today. This means that all 3 town NEED to vote together to get a lynch. This also means that if you hear someone say something, there's like a 50% chance it's coming from scum. Tell me what I can say to clarify or help you. Also, please tell me the chief reasons you think I'm scum. I think you're town, I want to do everything I can to convince you that I too am town, because I *need* you. Unless all 3 of us vote together, we lose. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
Everyone who didn't vote 27nb is dead except release. He didn't even bus mderg, he voted me. And the next day, between me and mderg, he voted mderg when it counted, despite being willing to vote me D1. I'm not even sure that last bit is a scumtell but the point is: it's gotta be Release, there's no scumteam without him. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
Also, I'm not done with you. Unless we vote together, it's over. This is true. You obviously understand this since you're talking to chez. But the fact of the matter is, you're lynching into green checks, again. This is patently awful play. When this game is over, some observer, or even the host, is going to ask what we were doing lynching the green checks. Also, I know I was basically absent from the end of N1 to about halfway through D2, but this is because my nephew had an epileptic seizure. The kid has epilipsy, but hasn't had an episode for a couple years. the doctors were ramping down his dosage and he seized overnight, and my brother was in Chico. my dad called the doctor while I stayed with him and we took him to the neurologist, and basically didn't have time to actually be at the computer. I wish I did, but all I had was my phone, so I basically just made flippant remarks to ease the stress. There, is that better? That's the reason I randomly disappeared for 48 hours. My fucking loser brother can't hold down a job and can't even keep custody of his kid who has special needs, so sometimes I gotta clean up after messes that aren't mine. So there, I did what all you idiots do, which is talk about IRL things. Is this better than Dinner? Is this more convincing? No, you don't give a shit. none of the IRL things matter. I was away for 48 hours, but that was then, and this is now. when my life was on the line, I contributed. When VE was being lynched, I contributed. And when EVERYONE was wrong (or scum) and pushing LM, I was there to try to make the best of it. It doesn't matter if I was eating a long long dinner or if my nephew needed someone to take care of him during a medical emergency. all that matters is how I played before, and how I played after. I played for the town. Everything I've done this game, I've done to foster a good environment. I've kept less active people involved. I've forced people to give opinions when they were quiet. I've driven most of the lynches and god damn it, everyone knows my reads and where I stand. yeah, it's easy for me to look bad because i'm outspoken, because I don't hide or vascillate or waffle. I'm here to talk and I push my reads, because that's what I do. I was wrong, twice-- on 27nb and VE. But I was also right twice, on mderg and on LM. And when I was right OR wrong, I made sure the thread stayed active. When I thought I'd die D2, I tried to leave behind reads and engage the thread. i've done everything I can to make this decision easy for you. and gods be damned, I'm gonna make the best of this, too. sloosh, I stayed up 2 hours waiting for your reply so you better have replied to this post by the time I wake up. Also I didn't read the vote by vote thing, I was just looking at your helpful vca diagram, i'm looking at what happened at the end of the day. and honestly it's worth noting that Release was on me D1, and NOT on me D2. you can't deny this. And let's be real here, I play a good scum, but 1) everything I've done is pro town. most of this town's good atmosphere and environment is due to me and me alone 2) there's a freaking green check on me, just like there was on LM, and just like there is on you, sloosh. 3) i also play a good town. A damn good town. and you need to engage me and discuss with me and not say "roll credits" because you OWE it to me. You OWE it to me to talk to me and give me a chance to convince you. You're not 100% on me being scum, which means you have to admit it; you could be wrong. which means we need to keep talking. If I'm scum, catch me. I'm good scum, as you say. Then read my games history and show how I'm like my scum games. If I'm town, that will show; and if I'm scum, that will show. We're not done, sloosh. Respond to the Release vote on D1. Respond to what I say about myself. Respond to the green check. you KNOW it's wrong to go lynching down the list of green checks. you KNOW it. yes, I could be a gf or a framer who framed himself, sure. But maybe the scum pr is an rb (unlikely given the gk kill, but super common non-conseq doc + 1x cop setup). this would mean there's no cop-fooling role, which means you and I are town. Chezinu understands this as well as I do. we gotta get our shit together. I've done everything I can to work for the town, and you've been tunnelled on me forever. I bet if LM flipped scum, you'd call e scum for it, and if he flipped town, youd' call me town for it. please, sloosh, THINK for a moment. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 29 2014 01:22 Chezinu wrote: Ok guys, This is the last troll of this game. Like almost seriously! Koshi is mafia! ##Unvote ##Vote Koshi also, we gots time guys. Cause you know, I checked him yesterday. I understand that you think all scum voted together day one. Voting kosh makes sense then. What I don't get is why? I feel like you think those quote somehow explain it or are convincing but I still don't understand. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 29 2014 04:26 slOosh wrote: I've bolded the parts that haven't been addressed You come over here and discuss my concerns, not dismissing them all and talking about something I find not only lackluster but straight up twisted and convoluted. "mderg getting lynched" "scum voting counterwagon for no reason". Garbage argument. Also Chezinu please, like either YKZ or Koshi is fine with me, we just need the votes on the same people at deadline. Are we doing Koshi today or YKZ today? Likewise for Release. I totally understand that I haven't addressed much of your post, but I want to know your response to my thoughts on the D1 wagon. I'll work on a more qdequate response now. On June 29 2014 04:36 slOosh wrote: Gonna play follow the Chez now. It's our only hope. ##Unvote YouKnowZhou ##Vote Koshi not as good as Release, but works for me ##unvote ##vote Koshi | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 29 2014 06:24 Chezinu wrote: "Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall." Today is Day 5. It was once said that Day 5 is key. But is it key to destruction or key to victory? It is the key to the locked closet of my heart. Tell me, Chezinu, what exactly about VE flipping town indicated to you that all scum were on 27nb? I am having trouble making the connection. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 29 2014 06:26 Chezinu wrote: Nothing absolutely nothing. MUHAHAHHAHAHHA!!! Ok. Then, let's talk about release, the only living non-voter of 27nb. Here's my chez tier tldr: On June 28 2014 14:55 YouKnowZhou wrote: >Release' D1 vote opts out of the discourse. It's also unlikely all scum voted 27nb D1. Release voted "not 27nb" but also voted "not mderg" (you'd expect at least 1 scum not to be on that 27nb wagon, since not all 3 were needed to save mderg; every player currently alive voted for 27nb day 1 except release, who voted ykz) >Release vote on mderg D2 makes sense as a bus. Release voted YKZ D1, but on D2 he moves to mderg even though it's between YKZ and mderg. Also, for a while it was between YKZ and all kinds of other players >Release ignores and basically doesn't engage with the dying LM despite being in thread >Some Process of Elimination stuff: Don't lynch BH/Sloosh because of green checks; don't lynch chez. Between Koshi and Release Release makes more sense since he wasn't on the 27nb wagon D1 | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 29 2014 06:32 Chezinu wrote: I never knowingly played with release before. But I have played with Koshi. I had red/blue read on Koshi earlier in the game. Especially, when he mentioned the comment about town only having a doctor. I then fakeclaimed to draw him out. He didn't call me out. Koshi's lurkiness and silence then in your opinion was either an attempt to dodge shots (as a blue) or because he was scum, based on your experience with typical Koshi. Since after 2 cop claims and a dead doc he didn't cc, it means he's not blue, so he must be scum. the Red/Blue read is based on his lack of contribution in general? | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
Vote Count - Day 5: Koshi (2): Chezinu, YKZ YouKnowZhou (2): Release Slosh Rekease (1): Koshi and I'm pretty sure Kosh is leading to get lynched, but when you me and chez are not voting together, that means scum controls the lynch. You obviously think Chez is town, right? If you think I'm on a scumteam with apparently Release (since you don't want to lynch Koshi) that means that right now you, your "townread" Koshi, and Chezinu are all on different wagons. You should really be writing a more thought out / convincing case. Even YOU have to admit that just voting me in this circumstance is an awful move | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 30 2014 06:17 slOosh wrote: Also, Chez, please kill YKZ, it will be more fun that way. Also, I figured out why I wasn't dead n1. Goodkarma -> Goodkarma -> Scum trying to spell Gosu. But they failed. Why aren't you trying to convince Koshi to vote for me? In your world he is also town But more seriously dude here's what's gonna happen, in the last few seconds of the day koshi is gonna vote me. 100% it's the optimal move for him as scum easy win. The whole point here in lylo is we need all 3 townies voting together or else bullshit happens | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 30 2014 06:20 slOosh wrote: So you didn't respond to my post but you were watching thread whole time? Ok. Uh, yes. Don't you seem me posting in the other parts of TL Mafia right now? Look dude I don't really have anything I can say to your post other than that you shouldn't be lynching into the damn green checks. Like, this all seems fairly obvious to me, but maybe I've missed something here. Chezinu is town, and we have 2 green checks. Let's lynch the remaining 2 guys? yes? | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 30 2014 06:28 slOosh wrote: Koshi remember this? Please remember this. KOSHI Dude, Koshi's gonna vote for me anyways, because we're the only 2 real wagons. Even if Koshi were somehow town he'd vote for me because otherwise he gets lynched. Are you even paying attention? | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
Now you can say that last bit is wifom, but trust me sloosh, if I were scum I'd have shot you long ago just to avoid situations like this. I'd probably have shot VE instead of trying to lynch him, and there's no way in hell I'd have shot chez, who lacks the leadership traits to really oppose me in thread. You have multiple times praised my scumplay and noted the various things I do as scum, but as scum I fucking shoot people who want to lynch me. Most people due stupid shit like hunt blues or try to wifom their shots. I pull no punches. I shoot anyone who wants to lynch me, and when they're dead people aren't smart enough to pick up on it. Do you really think these NKs are the NKs I'd make? | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 30 2014 07:11 slOosh wrote: I'm not 100% sure yes, but I am reasonably sure. You still won't engage me in proper discussion on my terms and are setting up strawmans that don't really have anything to do with alignments. I'm not interested when "talking" means "distracting chatter". Sloosh, why are you alive? Come on man, you know how I play as scum. why are you alive? | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 30 2014 07:19 slOosh wrote: B/c I've been wrong a whole bunch of times? Seems straightforward. And I actually have no idea how you play as scum, I'm just aware of the reputation that BH plays a decent scum game. Well, not that you should trust people telling you about their own scum meta, but basically as scum I always ensure my team wins by shitting up the thread and getting people really really angry. I use my ability to make many posts and argue a lot to prevent town from playing constructively, and rely on the length of my filter to make myself look useful. Also, I aim my NK at people who suspect me, shooting the towniest, loudest people who don't like me. I'd never waste a shot on chezinu, and I'd never ever not shoot VE or you. A lot of what makes me good as scum is that I always shoot people who suspect me. This sounds like a dumb strategy, but by definition it makes it easier to survive. People might notice that everyone who had a strong scumread on me is dead, but they never draw conclusions, even though everyone is aware this is my top scum strategy. It makes situations like lylo very easy. Amazingly, you're underestimating my scumplay by not assuming I'd just shoot you. Most poeple don't know how to use the nk. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
Look, look for just a moment here sloosh. since there's a green check on me you're assuming either 1) we have a framer or 2) we have a godfather. That means that I could claim, say, doctor, and show up as a doctor to rolecop checks if I were the gf or had a framer. If you think I'm scum, you think there's one of thos eroles. You KNOW that I ALWAYS claim blue. What better time to do it when I can RETURN blue to a rolecop check? Jesus christ man, think about it! If I were scum this would be the WORST possible game to NOT claim blue. And I claim VT right out th egate as scum? No fucking way. Now, it turns out there was no rolecop but STILL if I were scum I couldn't know that. I am LEGENDARY for claiming blue as scum. In your view, I'm either the gf or have a framer (or am a framer). So why would I throw away this, the BEST possible chance for claiming blue as scum, with a vt claim? | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
Oh, nice try pretending to forget who you shot lol. I'll play along! Remember: Chez was shot by scum N2, and saved by Artanis, the doctor. Get with the program, Release. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 30 2014 07:44 Release wrote: Artanis never claimed to save Chez Oh come on, are you kidding me? Artanis listed Chez as his top townread the night after, right before he died with NO explanation. He obviously saved Chez. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 30 2014 07:54 Release wrote: here "There's also one comment in his filter that makes me near certain that he's town." Aka Chezinu's filter, not Artanis's. This implies that Artanis did not save Chezinu; otherwise, it would be a breadcrumb in Artanis's filter that would cause Chezinu to be "near certain ... town" His TOP townread! Look, whoever artanis saved was literally confirmed town to artanis, right? So that would be his TOP townread! I don't even know why I'm arguing this with you, actually; you're scum. The only person whose opinion matters is Sloosh. You and Koshi can vote how you want, I need to make sure me chez and sloosh vote together. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
Why would I spend all my time pushing discussion forward when I thought I was dying, or when LM was gonna die? ugh everyone competent except for me is dead, and koshi will be back at the deadline to vote me what a game | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 30 2014 08:46 slOosh wrote: Man ... if I didn't switch we'd be lynching BH I am thoroughly convinced that Koshi will be back in the final seconds of the day to lynch me | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 30 2014 09:00 Release wrote: Your scumbuddy is still going down. fascinating, looks like someone already "knew" what koshi would flip. | ||
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YouKnowZhou
United States262 Posts
On June 30 2014 09:00 Koshi wrote: ##unvote ##vote: YouKnowZhou Chez worst scumbuddy. gg oh, you can't possibly allow this, this is past the deadline | ||
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