Normal Mini Mafia LVI

On June 16 2014 10:47 goodkarma wrote:


But knowing all of this, couldn't you say you're VT regardless of alignment, bait someone's suspicion and then claim Kenpachi rule?

I'm having trouble understanding why at the very start of the game scum would be more prone to jumping on something that looks scummy. I mean if scum's job is to blend in, why be the first to vote and make a case? There's always scrutiny that comes with doing so...

On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:


What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute!

On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:


See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.

I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally.

I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage.

Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole.

On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.

Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.

My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.

It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.

Please comment on my thoughts

On June 16 2014 10:47 goodkarma wrote:


But knowing all of this, couldn't you say you're VT regardless of alignment, bait someone's suspicion and then claim Kenpachi rule?

I'm having trouble understanding why at the very start of the game scum would be more prone to jumping on something that looks scummy. I mean if scum's job is to blend in, why be the first to vote and make a case? There's always scrutiny that comes with doing so...

On June 16 2014 09:45 slOosh wrote:
Bunnies (ninja? 27?), who is smurf and why should we lynch him?

On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.

Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.

My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.

It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.

Please comment on my thoughts

On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:


See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.

I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally.

I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage.

Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole.

On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.

1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.

2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.

Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.

3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"

4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.

5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.

On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.

Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!

Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.

I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.

i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now.

On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3

WTG buddy!

hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.

So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..

But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.

That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1.

On June 17 2014 05:58 Snickers wrote:


Please explain why i am newbie.

People keep throwing around a lot of comments with assumptions. I'm just trying to clear that up. Release completely missed the fact that 27nb said vt twice before her lynch post. In my opinion releases huge first comment is based off something that is wrong. This does not mean it has zero merit. Release was complaining something along the line of ykz being misleading. I think it is misleading to boost a huge case on something and not even notice that 27nb did something that may(I think it does) against his case. It seems release is not intelligent or is trying to mislead

On June 17 2014 03:00 YouKnowZhou wrote:


"blazinghand is stubborn, therefore he is mafia" and "blazinghand has scumslipped, therefore he is mafia" are both sentences that are like always super doops wrong. I certainly can be stubborn as mafia, but I'm always stubborn. And the scumslip thing, come on guys. I legit don't scumslip as scum, and scumslip all the time as town, ask like anyone who has played more than 2 games with me. Also, I'm just generally a stubborn bastard no matter what I roll; again, ask anyone who has played with me.

I will say this though: although I don't particularly like that Release is all over me like a dog on a butt-flavored biscuit, I gotta give him credit: he IS all over me. He went through my filter and tried to find anything he could possibly construe as scummy and slapped it down in a big honkin filter dive case. Now, it's a big honkin WRONG filter drive case, but it's still a lot of effort. Maybe he was explicitly dodging Kenpachi Rule Extended, but he still gets mondo credit for putting in effort imo. Is release scummy for jumping in and just repeating what other people said? Eh, maybe. It's certainly a easy move for scum to make, but it's also worth noting that it's a move town would make.

Suppose Release comes in and sees this horrible back and forth between me and 27nb, and for some weird reason becomes convinced I'm scum as a result. He wants to drop a vote on me, but also there's like no-one voting me, so he drops a hella big case. He does work, he does research. I give him credit for this, at least. Yes, it would have been good if he had an original idea, but if he didn't, he didn't. There's only so much to be said about me. Maybe you think he's scum because you think I'm scum and this is the most poorly executed bus ever, but really, 1) it would be a terrible way to do it, and 2) as SloOsh said (and he gets mucho townie points for this) you don't draw associative tells between unflipped players.

Back onto the 27nb thing, Check it out. If you look at 27nb's filter, you see the initial push on me, and you see some interactions on me in places where I directly call out 27nb, but that's it as far as interactions with me. Check out some of the posts I made after the post that set off 27nb's "flag" so to speak about me being scummy:


In this post i'm explicitly stating I'm not BH and trying to fake not being me. Even worse, I'm setting up the "bh claiming vt must be town" meme and I later "accidentally" reveal myself to be BH. If I were someone who thought YKZ was scum and saw this, I'd be all over it. I'd point out that it's awfully CONVENIENT to say that and then "accidentally" reveal yourself to be bh. I'd write a case, or at least a post, or heck, at least a SENTENCE, about this. Since I'm already suspicious of YKZ, since I supposedly have a scumread on YKZ, responding to this would be a NATURAL thing to do if I was town and voting YKZ.

And yet, no response from 27nb (who was in thread at the time)

next..



Look at what I'm saying here. I'm literally admitting to lying to and deceiving the thread. I then say it's okay to lie and that the ends justify the means. Jesus christ on a stick with a cherry on top, how do you not flip out over this if you're town and think I'm scum? You'd be like "look, BH is obviously willing to lie. He was trying to pretend to be someone else while smurfing, which is a CLASSIC BH move when smurfing as scum. He even admits it, right here, in an attempt to defuse the situation. You can't let this slide guys, this is proof BH is scum"

anyone who thinks I'm suspicious and has a vote on me, after reading that I admit to lying and trying to decieve the thread, would be ALL OVER this post. You want to know how 27nb responds, though?

Here, I'll show you.




All 27nb sees is the part of the post directed at her. She argues about like backtracking or whatever, and says she's going forward with this lynch while literally ignoring possibly the most damning statement a player could make. If she was really town and really thought I was scum, at this point she'd say, not "blah blah kenpachi rule backtracking, your'e so bad and i'm so good", she'd say, "ah hah! Caught you in a lie, blazinghand, this is exactly what scum do!"

You can see she's clearly not in a mindset of hunting scum, or hell, even actually PUSHING The wagon. She is putting on a big SHOW of pushing the wagon, but she's not actually doing it. She's not pointing out what I'm posting, or why I'm scum, just shouting about like one sentence in one post. She's not hunting scum. She's making noise.

This is because she lacks the town mindset, the mindset that someone who really thought I was scum would have. Because 27nb is scum.

vote her, for justice.

On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:

Boring because you both just kept repeating the same things but in different words and it wasn't going anywhere for me to get a read on either of you.

I don't know your alignment and I'm not going to make an association between unflipped players. People did that in cell. You supported that as mafia. Why are you trying to create associations now?


This gives me a slight scumread on you. Wanting to be right is an easy reason to lean back on without actually saying anything.


Boring. You could've introduced a discussion about anyone that had an opinion on the case for bullshit reasons. You also keep repeating yourself in the post as well. If you want me to actually read your posts thoroughly, be more to the point. I'm not interested in your description of what you provided and what you want. It won't help me get a more accurate read on you.


Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that.

On June 17 2014 03:19 Lazermonkey wrote:
@Release: I'm sorry, I missread your post a little bit. Your argument is actually quite different from Bunnies. I do, however, still fail to understand how YKZ actions make him scum. Your argument seems like WIFOM to me. It's like you assume that YKZ is already scum and then try to justify his actions from that point of you. Have you even considered YKZ's actions from a town PoV?

Assuming that he is trying to create chaos by missinterpreting Bunnies is a big leap of faith.

I also do think that there is merit to the Kenpachi rule in this case. Even if Bunnies said nummerous times that the VT claim wasn't the reason she voted for YKZ, she still pointed out two times:


Looking at these two posts, you get the impression that Bunnies is indeed suspicious of YKZ because of the claim. Bunnies later on refutes this by saying that her suspicion of YKZ had nothing to do with the VT claim, HOWEVER:

Note the bolded part. It doesn't say "look, this is a really scummy thing YKZ said", it says "look, this is another point I don't like". If she didn't care about him claiming VT, why say that it was another part she didn't like? If there is something that I find null in someones filter I don't say "Hey, this is wierd". I just don't say a thing about it. And the thing is that Bunnies doesn't say anything about this untill YKZ votes her with because of the Kenpachi rule. It is therefore impossible for us to know whether she is talking the truth or not about not caring about the VT thing. Her actions in the thread does, however, indicate that this was something she cared about. Which makes me belive that all this was just a massive backpaddle by Bunnies after she got caught doing scummy stuff.

##Vote: 27ninjabunnies

On June 17 2014 03:22 YouKnowZhou wrote:


I think my most recent post demonstrates that 27nb's attention is drawn towards statements about her, rather than incriminating things I say-- even a bad townie would naturally respond to me saying things like "I lied to decieve town because I thought I could get away with it", whereas scum regardless of badness would naturally respond to me saying kenpachi rule but NOT respond to additional evidence. It's not a matter of skill, it's a matter of mindset. A townie, even a new townie (I remember being one), when thyey have a scumread on someone and that person does something really scummy, they RESPOND to it. they add it to their case. It's the natural thought process of a town player REGARDLESS of skill.

27nb is not showing this natural thought process. Look at her responses to my posts. Is she responding to things I say that are scummy or inconsistent and pointing out their inconsistency? Or is she just shouting about my first post whenever she gets the chance, and not actually trying to convince people to lynch me based on new evidence that emerges? A townie who was really tunnelled on me would LOVE to point out new scummy things I say, because he's still trying to formulate and develop a case. 27nb is always talking about me, sure, but look at WHAT she's responding to. Not the stuff a townie would.

On June 17 2014 03:48 27ninjabunnies wrote:



Understandable:

also ##Unvote

I know this is not going to get votes off of me, and I'm fine with that.

But YKZ's last few posts have been a bit towny, especially his read on Artansis.

I'm starting to worry we are two town fighting. I also don't want my judgement clouded by my vote on YKZ and would like to hear more from other people.

On June 17 2014 07:05 goodkarma wrote:


I'm not really sure what else to say here except that there's a large variance of degrees. How I see it, you have release saying "I'm leaning YKZ scum" on first quote and saying "I am unequivocally convinced YKZ is scum" on second one. Release has since posted something in disagreement, but this is what I see when looking at that post. What's more, when would town ever say "...what needs to be said to incriminate..."? That's some super-scummy wording. Town looks to determine who's scum, not to make someone look like scum.

Further, when thinking back on my own games the way Release has posted is almost exactly how I handled my first mafia game. I posted a huge case on an easy target then AFK'ed, only posting when I felt I had to. Looking at a few of his past games (when he was town), he had a much easier to follow flow with his posts. Every post in this game feels very calculated, and given how I personally liked to post in previous games as scum, it's easy for me to see how as an insecure newbie scum he would feel inclined to stack as much together as he could into a few very carefully planted posts.

On June 17 2014 07:29 VisceraEyes wrote:

I think this post makes slOosh scum. DETAILS AT ELEVEN!!!

On June 16 2014 17:12 Release wrote:

First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true).

So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null.

The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb).

Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon.




That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia.

Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis.




And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival).

-----------------------Line for separation--------------------------




@1: That was a question, separate from her vote.

@2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP)

@3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town.
next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch.

@4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia.

@5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip."
this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination.

See below:






Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\

+ Show Spoiler +