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mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 27 2014 16:24 GMT
#204
I don´t like this lynch at all. I don´t see what he did as alignment indicative because it doesn´t really make sense as either town or scum. So why is it more likely to be done by scum than by town?


fuba: Weren´t you against this lynch? Why the vote on jabberwockzerg now?
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 27 2014 16:36 GMT
#208
I don´t think obvious lies make people scum. It´s just too easy to figure out to actually make it scummy.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 27 2014 16:45 GMT
#210
Well, I don´t think his lie makes him scum. I honestly think scum would think more carefully about lying like that. I mean everyone who was on his scum team would have known he lied no matter what. So even if he didn´t know the scum team was made public, it would have been easy to see that he was lying.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 27 2014 16:53 GMT
#215
On May 28 2014 01:49 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2014 01:45 mderg wrote:
Well, I don´t think his lie makes him scum. I honestly think scum would think more carefully about lying like that. I mean everyone who was on his scum team would have known he lied no matter what. So even if he didn´t know the scum team was made public, it would have been easy to see that he was lying.


There's only one person in this game who was on his team, and that was amiko.

But i dont see amiko being even remotely active in this game right now, so your point there is invalid.

This game hasn´t even been going for a day. So amiko not being active in this doesn´t mean it has to stay that way.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 27 2014 16:55 GMT
#217
On May 28 2014 01:52 Palmar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2014 01:24 mderg wrote:
I don´t like this lynch at all. I don´t see what he did as alignment indicative because it doesn´t really make sense as either town or scum. So why is it more likely to be done by scum than by town?


fuba: Weren´t you against this lynch? Why the vote on jabberwockzerg now?


We're lynching this guy if this jabber lynch is wrong for not reading the case and defending him anyway.

Of course I read the case.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 27 2014 16:57 GMT
#220
On May 28 2014 01:52 fuba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2014 01:36 mderg wrote:
I don´t think obvious lies make people scum. It´s just too easy to figure out to actually make it scummy.

It wasn't an obvious lie to him. I mean, he knew it was a lie, but he didn't know that we would all know it was a lie.

The only thing that's making me uneasy is that if he is scum, he chose this defense -_-

The only way it wouldn´t get noticed is, if amiko was scum with him (assuming amiko reads this carefully). So by thinking logically it´s not unlikely we´d figure out he was lying.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 27 2014 17:00 GMT
#221
On May 28 2014 01:55 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2014 01:53 mderg wrote:
On May 28 2014 01:49 27ninjabunnies wrote:
On May 28 2014 01:45 mderg wrote:
Well, I don´t think his lie makes him scum. I honestly think scum would think more carefully about lying like that. I mean everyone who was on his scum team would have known he lied no matter what. So even if he didn´t know the scum team was made public, it would have been easy to see that he was lying.


There's only one person in this game who was on his team, and that was amiko.

But i dont see amiko being even remotely active in this game right now, so your point there is invalid.

This game hasn´t even been going for a day. So amiko not being active in this doesn´t mean it has to stay that way.


Oh yes, i know this, so i would love to hear what Amiko has to say when he does start commenting. But my point is how would his previous eating cheese and rice team call him out on it when one of them isnt even in this game, and the other isnt being active.

So i called him out on it. I think it was a slip

It might be a slip but I think it´s more likely that it´s not a slip and just bad play.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 27 2014 17:19 GMT
#224
On May 28 2014 02:15 fuba wrote:
Mderg - who would you lynch over jabber?

Right now I´d go with you because I didn´t like how you changed your opinion on jabber but didn´t bother to explain the reason for that until you were asked.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 27 2014 17:25 GMT
#228
On May 28 2014 02:20 slOosh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2014 15:31 fuba wrote:
But the last game was Classroom, the game that got remade. And since jabber was scum in that game, he knew that Chrom wasn't. Which means that he knew chrom wasn't scum, but suggested that possibility anyway. While I can't give an exact reason for scum|jabber to lie, I don't see any reason for town|jabber to.

...Though now that I think of it, unless the scumteam is the exact three people it was last time, then jabber would be incredibly unlikely to intentionally lie about who was on it, since at least one scum from last game would be town this game and would point out that he's lying. So either this was just a mistake on his part or I'm misunderstanding some part of the interaction. Either way, I'm pretty sure I've talked myself out of this...

##Unvote

Show nested quote +
On May 27 2014 21:37 fuba wrote:
On May 27 2014 21:07 Chromatically wrote:
On May 27 2014 11:56 HaruRH wrote:
On May 27 2014 11:54 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Delicately, must I awkwardly introduce all of my posts and then just get on with them


I think that doing anything else other than leaving the subject as it is will make you an even likelier target for scrumm. Change the topic quickly

I don't like this choice of words so soon after you voted him, though. This makes it seem like you know he is town.


On May 27 2014 15:31 fuba wrote:
But the last game was Classroom, the game that got remade. And since jabber was scum in that game, he knew that Chrom wasn't. Which means that he knew chrom wasn't scum, but suggested that possibility anyway. While I can't give an exact reason for scum|jabber to lie, I don't see any reason for town|jabber to.

...Though now that I think of it, unless the scumteam is the exact three people it was last time, then jabber would be incredibly unlikely to intentionally lie about who was on it, since at least one scum from last game would be town this game and would point out that he's lying. So either this was just a mistake on his part or I'm misunderstanding some part of the interaction. Either way, I'm pretty sure I've talked myself out of this...

##Unvote

I disagree with this because it doesn't make sense as either alignment. It's clearly a bad move for town, and also for scum because it serves no purpose other than to make yourself look suspicious. However, it's more likely to come from scum because scum has factors like nervousness, wanting to look good/push something, artificial reads, etc that would cause them to slip up and lie for no reason.

I don't really see scum as more likely to post something like that so carelessly, particularly because I can see no reason to do so. It seems like too much oversight with no payoff.

Show nested quote +
On May 27 2014 21:42 fuba wrote:
Bleh, I'll do another read through the thread when I have time after class. The lynch just seems wrong to me :S

Show nested quote +
On May 28 2014 00:50 fuba wrote:
##Vote: jabberwockzerg


What changed?


He actually answered that already. I don´t like that he didn´t give the reason for that without being asked.
On May 28 2014 01:33 fuba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2014 01:24 mderg wrote:
I don´t like this lynch at all. I don´t see what he did as alignment indicative because it doesn´t really make sense as either town or scum. So why is it more likely to be done by scum than by town?


fuba: Weren´t you against this lynch? Why the vote on jabberwockzerg now?

My position was that since it made no sense to lie as either alignment, I felt it was more likely a mistake. And I felt that this mistake was more likely to come from town rather than scum. His defense, however, is that he was actually hiding information and encouraging a possibility that he knew for a fact was incorrect. That makes it scummy.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 27 2014 17:42 GMT
#233
On May 28 2014 02:33 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2014 02:00 mderg wrote:
On May 28 2014 01:55 27ninjabunnies wrote:
On May 28 2014 01:53 mderg wrote:
On May 28 2014 01:49 27ninjabunnies wrote:
On May 28 2014 01:45 mderg wrote:
Well, I don´t think his lie makes him scum. I honestly think scum would think more carefully about lying like that. I mean everyone who was on his scum team would have known he lied no matter what. So even if he didn´t know the scum team was made public, it would have been easy to see that he was lying.


There's only one person in this game who was on his team, and that was amiko.

But i dont see amiko being even remotely active in this game right now, so your point there is invalid.

This game hasn´t even been going for a day. So amiko not being active in this doesn´t mean it has to stay that way.


Oh yes, i know this, so i would love to hear what Amiko has to say when he does start commenting. But my point is how would his previous eating cheese and rice team call him out on it when one of them isnt even in this game, and the other isnt being active.

So i called him out on it. I think it was a slip

It might be a slip but I think it´s more likely that it´s not a slip and just bad play.


Explain further. What about it makes it just a bad play?


Are you asking about why it´s bad play or why i think it´s not scummy but bad play?

I´l answer both


I don´t think that makes him scum because even considering that he missed the alignments of the last game being published it´s not unlikely to be figured out that he lied. Unless he is scum with amiko or somehow knows that amiko won´t notice it there is quite a huge risk of the lie being discovered.

Why it´s bad play should be obvious with the situation he´s in right now. It makes him suspicious which he doesn´t want as either alignment.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 27 2014 18:11 GMT
#246
On May 28 2014 03:04 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2014 02:42 mderg wrote:
On May 28 2014 02:33 27ninjabunnies wrote:
On May 28 2014 02:00 mderg wrote:
On May 28 2014 01:55 27ninjabunnies wrote:
On May 28 2014 01:53 mderg wrote:
On May 28 2014 01:49 27ninjabunnies wrote:
On May 28 2014 01:45 mderg wrote:
Well, I don´t think his lie makes him scum. I honestly think scum would think more carefully about lying like that. I mean everyone who was on his scum team would have known he lied no matter what. So even if he didn´t know the scum team was made public, it would have been easy to see that he was lying.


There's only one person in this game who was on his team, and that was amiko.

But i dont see amiko being even remotely active in this game right now, so your point there is invalid.

This game hasn´t even been going for a day. So amiko not being active in this doesn´t mean it has to stay that way.


Oh yes, i know this, so i would love to hear what Amiko has to say when he does start commenting. But my point is how would his previous eating cheese and rice team call him out on it when one of them isnt even in this game, and the other isnt being active.

So i called him out on it. I think it was a slip

It might be a slip but I think it´s more likely that it´s not a slip and just bad play.


Explain further. What about it makes it just a bad play?


Are you asking about why it´s bad play or why i think it´s not scummy but bad play?

I´l answer both


I don´t think that makes him scum because even considering that he missed the alignments of the last game being published it´s not unlikely to be figured out that he lied. Unless he is scum with amiko or somehow knows that amiko won´t notice it there is quite a huge risk of the lie being discovered.

Why it´s bad play should be obvious with the situation he´s in right now. It makes him suspicious which he doesn´t want as either alignment.


You are right. Unless amiko is with him, his play would be called out.

However, what was I supposed to do, let it slide and hope that amiko comments on it?

That's not something I would do.

I think it´s good that you pointed it out but how everyone instantly jumps on him that´s what I don´t like.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 27 2014 18:12 GMT
#247
On May 28 2014 03:01 Alakaslam wrote:
Jabberwockzerg's play is illogical to a clear extreme, mderg defends him so hard nonetheless, that to me this also screams scum. Mderg, if you are to defend jwz, I recommend being more specific in your refutation of the points laid against him.

I think I´ve been pretty clear in my defense.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 27 2014 21:33 GMT
#295
On May 28 2014 03:32 Amiko wrote:
@mderg:
I can understand you having some hesitation on the initial jabberwockzerg points, though I think it's not a bad argument. What do you think of jabberwock's followup post(s)?

For fuba, I understand that you didn't like that he voted for jabber without an explanation. I agree that we needed to press him for a reason, but do you feel like him voting without an explanation was scummy?
I take it you do from this post (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=12#224), but I'd have to disagree, I feel that players give reads/votes without explanation as either town or scum. Could you explain your thoughts on this a little more and if your feelings on fuba come from anywhere else?

I don´t think his followup posts were as scummy as most people here make it sound.

On May 27 2014 11:50 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2014 11:44 27ninjabunnies wrote:
On May 27 2014 11:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Counter point: he could have been super into last game because he was mafia, and isn't as into being vanilla town.


So let me spell it out. It has to do with this post here.

You were a squirrel eating nuts last game, were you not?

Yet here, you say he could have been super into the last game because he was also sniffing the maple.

Yet, he wasnt. You were. And you didnt know that that knowledge was made public to us.

So either you are defending Chrom/slightly bussing here because he is your partner in crime, or you are again down among the badgers as you said chrom was leading more towards being a grim reaper in a town full of sickness, and you want to get him lynched.

Clearing this up, I didn't mean mafia specifically, just non vanilla. Was this bad wording? Yes. Stupid of me? Yes. Learning experience, definitely

this post seems honest to me. I don´t think anyone would make this defense, if it wasn´t actually the truth. It´s just too far of from anything I would have expected as defense.


On May 28 2014 01:14 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2014 20:59 Chromatically wrote:
Also, read this whole page again: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=5

bunnies starts by (presumably) joking about me being scum, not a serious push as evidenced by not voting.

On May 27 2014 11:19 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Both of you make a fair point, but I agree with bunnies.
If he's lurking (he probably is) he'll be quick to post something, which we can further use as more information comes to light

This is jabber's passive-agressive response. "he probably is" heavily implies that jabber has a strong scumread on me, which clearly doesn't make sense given that I've made one completely non-alignment indicative post. From a scum perspective, it makes sense for jabber to try to go with the flow of the thread and throw suspicion on me, but accidentally take it too far.

On May 27 2014 11:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Counter point: he could have been super into last game because he was mafia, and isn't as into being vanilla town.

On May 27 2014 11:21 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Definitely leaving towards scum though

Again, here he makes it seem as if he strongly thinks I'm scum, which just doesn't make sense unless he has a preset idea of what he wants to push my alignment as.

Lovely.
I was trying to get the game moving along, I was pretty pumped to start interrogating and scum reading, which isn't how I acted last game, when I was scum.
Lying about who was scum last game, I was trying to conceal information. I didn't realize that last game's roles were known, it would be beneficial for me if no one knew I was Mafia, just because there would be no real patterns of my play, and I could remain a wild card, which I thought could help me later.

this is the post most people seem to see as the strongest scumtell.
I don´t agree with his reasoning for withholding information but being wrong doesn´t make you scum. Although I agree that this post looks kinda bad it´s not like townies never make strange plays like this.


Overall it´s just strange how almost everyone jumps on the wagon. IMO most lynches like this end up being wrong.

I´d like to see a bit more from jabber. If he gives some more reads and defends himself a bit more, it might be clearer whether this was just a misstep or actually a scumslip. Right now I´m not convinced that it´s a scumslip, though.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 27 2014 21:40 GMT
#296
I really need some sleep now.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 28 2014 13:07 GMT
#448
On May 28 2014 11:08 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2014 10:59 Chromatically wrote:
this is quite possibly the finest scumhunting tl has seen in ages


Hey im scumhunting....

So im thinking,

Team for mafia:

Jabber/Sqrt/mderg

Or

Jabber/palmer/mderg

Something like that,

Id lynch both jabber and mderg though

I don´t get how defending jabber like I did would make any sense, if we were both scum. That would be like the worst mafia play ever. Me being scum only makes sense, if jabber flips town. I could see mafia reasons for that. But hard defending a scummate who will almost certainly be lynched anyway doesn´t seem like scum play.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 28 2014 14:43 GMT
#455
On May 28 2014 23:23 Chromatically wrote:
mderg, what would you say your objective is for today? What outcome would you be most happy with??

Well, my objective is to lynch scum but I don´t think that´s what you want to hear. It´s difficult to find a proper answer to that question because it´s not like I have someone I really want to lynch. I still don´t want jabber to be lynched.

The outcome I would be most happy with would be lynching someone who is not jabber and scum. But since my defense for jabber didn´t seem to convince people I don´t think someone else will be lynched.
I´d also be happy, if jabber flipped scum. That would make me wrong but it would put us in a good position.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 28 2014 19:25 GMT
#500
I want to say fuba. I already wrote something about him before.
On May 28 2014 02:19 mderg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2014 02:15 fuba wrote:
Mderg - who would you lynch over jabber?

Right now I´d go with you because I didn´t like how you changed your opinion on jabber but didn´t bother to explain the reason for that until you were asked.

The problem with that is that after that he basically wasn´t here anymore. This makes it difficult to actually make a solid case based on proper reasoning.

I also want to see more from jabber. If he´s town, we could at least gain something from his reads.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 28 2014 20:29 GMT
#540
Regarding HaruRH:

I agree with Amiko that Haru´s play has been strange.
The part about the odds is not something I would take seriously. To me it seemed like some kind of joke post.
The second point Amiko raises about Haru is definitely strange play. It kinda seemed like throwing a fake lifeline to jabber in order to have some point against him regardless of how jabber continues to play.
The third point is something that could go either way. It´s difficult to get a clear read out of setup discussion.

So it´s definitely worth it to keep a closer eye on HaruRH.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 28 2014 20:37 GMT
#541
On May 29 2014 05:21 Amiko wrote:
Oh, I had a point on Palmar I intended to raise and I just don't want to forget about it, and sqrt/others you can consider it if you want:

I do townread Palmar for his play d1. But, I do think his meta works against a townread on him.
Palmar self-described himself as follows in the "game of champions"
Show nested quote +
"Traditionally I am a very strong town player and a mediocre scum player. My greatest strengths in mafia is first and foremost a very strong day 1, and the ability to lead and influence towns."

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/59/puzzles-other-games/3-game-mafia-champions-ww-invitational-game-thread-1428519/index2.html
I won't talk about that game very much because I don't want to make Palmar cry (I didn't read the whole thing anyway, but I am not sure the players did either) (j/k you guys were pretty cool).

On a meta-level, I don't think I'd say Palmar has led town D1, it feels more like he has played a supportive role by encouraging the lynch on JWZ. It does make it a little more possible that he is opportunistic mafia pushing for a lynch. I still feel better about my townread, though.

I agree that it works against him but I generally hate everything that´s based on self meta. So I take this with a grain of salt.
mderg
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany1740 Posts
May 28 2014 20:47 GMT
#544
How am I supposed to do that? You should all realize that something is wrong with that lynch, if every vote is on jabber. It would feel stupid to repeat the reasons why I defended jabber but I can´t give anything else, if he doesn´t post.
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