Welcome to the Patch General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends and the most recent patch. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread. While posting standards tend to be rather lax in this thread, pointless spam will not be tolerated.
I don't understand what they're trying to do with runeglaive. It's an item for mages, but it no longer converts damage to magic. It no longer does AoE damage, but instead does more single target damage to monsters? It's just flat out a shitty version of lich bane now. Other than Nidalee and maybe Diana, who's going to want to build this? Just bring back magus.
The entire idea of runeglaive is stupid. AP junglers by far weakest point is their awful and unsafe first and second clear. Everyone wrecks the jungle once they have their fully completed item. The mana buff helps but no way is it enough.
Reworked Fiora is practically a completely new champ, this is almost Sion level rework. She at least keeps her vision. I am against that, just add a new champ and leave the old one with some minor customization there.
On July 22 2015 05:50 M2 wrote: Reworked Fiora is practically a completely new champ, this is almost Sion level rework. She at least keeps her vision. I am against that, just add a new champ and leave the old one with some minor customization there.
I don't think its that different but you can't just faceroll anyone lategame now qq
On July 22 2015 05:39 nafta wrote: I really don't understand why can't riot add a customizable hud.Is it really too much to ask?
Na, they said every time "we know you're going to love it after a couple games to get used to it, and you can resize the elements, so we won't give you the ability to move the elements around".
Y'know, my screen is a rectangle, so I'd like to play with a rectangle, not a damn diagonal. Especially when I naturally look more toward the left and the top than the bottom and the right. But hey, you know better than me where I'm going to put my eyes and which info I prioritise.
About Eve's nerf, Nautilus got nerfed for ~20% then 25% on W, and WW hit a net 25% damage nerf on rank 5 Q once too.
On July 22 2015 05:50 M2 wrote: Reworked Fiora is practically a completely new champ, this is almost Sion level rework. She at least keeps her vision. I am against that, just add a new champ and leave the old one with some minor customization there.
I don't think its that different but you can't just faceroll anyone lategame now qq
Yeah, only 4 abilities and 1 passive got completely different, the rest is all the same xD
So I've been playing a bunch of cinderhulk ekko, and I've been playing around with the idea of Liandrys as his damage item.
It seems really synergy in theory.
1. Ekko Q slows and reapplies for max tics and max power. 2. Ekko W gives him fat execution power on his autos below 30% hp, so as liandries starts being bad his W starts chunking. You want to get enemies down to 30% as fast as you can. 3. Pen is good for his strong base damage and % HP dmg. 4. It gives 300hp which is boosted by cinderhulk. 5. New liandries is just straight up great for its cost after rework.
I've been having success building zero damage items though, and being stupidly tanky, so we'll see if its worth it.
The only things fundamentally different about Fiora are the passive and ult.
Never understood how insane people get about huds. It made sense in WoW, where there were a billion different things to track. Almost understood it in SC2, at least for spectators. But League? There's really not that much info to pop on a hud. All I give a shit about is if the map and CDs are in a relatively sensible position and everything else is as far out of the viewing space as possible.
If you're going to go for a damage item on bruiser types at the moment, Liandry's is definitely high on the list. It's terrifically efficient. You could probably go Cinderhulk->Liandry's->Rylai's->full tank.
I actually like her new E, I just don't get either the passive or the ultimate. It feels like a more extreme version of ZAC blobs in lane, and 270° around a target is just goofy.
On July 22 2015 06:23 Caiada wrote: The only things fundamentally different are the passive and ult.
Never understood how insane people get about huds. It made sense in WoW, where there were a billion different things to track. Almost understood it in SC2, at least for spectators. But League? There's really not that much info to pop on a hud. All I give a shit about is if things are in a relatively sensible position and are as far out of the viewing space as possible.
If you're going to go for a damage item on bruiser types at the moment, Liandry's is definitely high on the list. It's terrifically efficient. You could probably go Cinderhulk->Liandry's->Rylai's->full tank.
They change the places of items and champion icons to the other side of the screen.Why do I need to get used to a new hud for no reason other than "cuz we decided you wanted this"?
Some people will like it some won't it is normal but hey I for example prefer the old one with just the added ult timers.
On July 22 2015 06:23 Caiada wrote: The only things fundamentally different are the passive and ult.
Never understood how insane people get about huds. It made sense in WoW, where there were a billion different things to track. Almost understood it in SC2, at least for spectators. But League? There's really not that much info to pop on a hud. All I give a shit about is if things are in a relatively sensible position and are as far out of the viewing space as possible.
If you're going to go for a damage item on bruiser types at the moment, Liandry's is definitely high on the list. It's terrifically efficient. You could probably go Cinderhulk->Liandry's->Rylai's->full tank.
They change the places of items and champion icons to the other side of the screen.Why do I need to get used to a new hud for no reason other than "cuz we decided you wanted this"?
Some people will like it some won't it is normal but hey I for example prefer the old one with just the added ult timers.
Getting a bunch of crap out of the viewing area and prettying it up seems like a noble enough goal to me.
We found this story pretty funny, so we're going to tell it. Basically last patch we did update a lot of the Death Recap system so it would play nice with champion damage, but we didn't fix a bug where Death Recap had inverted the priority listing for damage types. In other words, Death Recap was properly calculating the damage you were taking from champion spells, but it was not stack ranking them properly. Instead of displaying the top three highest sources of damage, it was showing you the bottom three.
On July 22 2015 06:23 Caiada wrote: The only things fundamentally different are the passive and ult.
Never understood how insane people get about huds. It made sense in WoW, where there were a billion different things to track. Almost understood it in SC2, at least for spectators. But League? There's really not that much info to pop on a hud. All I give a shit about is if things are in a relatively sensible position and are as far out of the viewing space as possible.
If you're going to go for a damage item on bruiser types at the moment, Liandry's is definitely high on the list. It's terrifically efficient. You could probably go Cinderhulk->Liandry's->Rylai's->full tank.
They change the places of items and champion icons to the other side of the screen.Why do I need to get used to a new hud for no reason other than "cuz we decided you wanted this"?
Some people will like it some won't it is normal but hey I for example prefer the old one with just the added ult timers.
On July 22 2015 06:23 Caiada wrote: The only things fundamentally different are the passive and ult.
Never understood how insane people get about huds. It made sense in WoW, where there were a billion different things to track. Almost understood it in SC2, at least for spectators. But League? There's really not that much info to pop on a hud. All I give a shit about is if things are in a relatively sensible position and are as far out of the viewing space as possible.
If you're going to go for a damage item on bruiser types at the moment, Liandry's is definitely high on the list. It's terrifically efficient. You could probably go Cinderhulk->Liandry's->Rylai's->full tank.
They change the places of items and champion icons to the other side of the screen.Why do I need to get used to a new hud for no reason other than "cuz we decided you wanted this"?
Some people will like it some won't it is normal but hey I for example prefer the old one with just the added ult timers.
Getting a bunch of crap out of the viewing area and prettying it up seems like a noble enough goal to me.
They are just moving it from taking the sides to taking space in the middle...
If you have problems seeing things in league you need to learn to use a mouse.
The Fiora rework has basically ruined her. She used to be a melee AD carry/assassin. Now she's just going to be built like every other AD bruiser. I can't see any reason to not build triforce/bork into full tank. There's definitely no point to building her full AD.
And BTW, Guinsoo was supposed to come back last year and do the Fiora rework. Anyone know what happened to him?
On July 22 2015 06:40 Sonnington wrote: The Fiora rework has basically ruined her. She used to be a melee AD carry/assassin. Now she's just going to be built like every other AD bruiser. I can't see any reason to not build triforce/bork into full tank. There's definitely no point to building her full AD.
And BTW, Guinsoo was supposed to come back last year and do the Fiora rework. Anyone know what happened to him?
She used to be a melee carry, which we've all know doesn't fucking work in League...now she is actually something.
Yeah, she is def triforce tanky now, and its better than her shit state pre-rework.
She'll probably go Triforce->Ghostblade->BotRK. Even then, I'm iffy on BotRK. She's a splitpushing duelist, why's that somehow necessitate going tank? Especially when people were arguing last post that GP should go full damage just because of his E....
People get stuck on generic item choices so fucking often. Itemization in this game isn't that complicated, but Jesus. The moment a melee that doesn't have the word assassin in big bold letters on their kit dies people think they should go full tank for no reason.
Let's say hypothetically that her true damage scales with AD. Now you have no reason to go generic Irelia build.
Edit: PBE update is up. True damage scales with AD. What a surprise.
Also, Qing a target has a 4 sec base CD at max rank. Holy hell. Too bad E looks shittier than I thought.
On July 22 2015 06:24 FinestHour wrote: ah yes nothing gives me more pleasure than some T R U E D A M A G E and some C O U N T E R P L A Y with my rework
You used a complete sentence structure, that's rare iirc. Is that the %max HP part fueling your motivation?
As for the HUD their items' cooldowns buff bar is awkward imo, so having my items in a place where I can easily check them is still important. Moving them to the right is meh. On the other hand, the champion stats are moved even more to the left.
You also have to look at the HUD in a full screen's context. A lot of stuff is crammed in the bottom right corner, as an excuse for the map being a bottom left-top right diagonal overall, so they want these corners freed. But all they do with that is overcharge the rest of the bottom of the screen! And you go tell that to top laners, I'm sure they'll love having their vision toward the river and tribrush obscured by all these cool HUD elements compared to before, even with the minimap to check incoming presence.
On July 22 2015 06:20 JimmiC wrote: Seams like another good patch that is gonna shake things up yet again.
Korea hasn't played any games on 5.13 yet, and here is 5.14 :|
Competitive is always 2 weeks behind.
I think the issue is that there's a patch every two weeks. How can any of these changes be well thought out if the status of the previous patch hasn't even been tested?
Right, the coolest champion to play, Fiora... Who was perhaps the only character who could do go to brush at low hp -> triple kill with ravenous hydra lifesteal and ult and resets etc. and who I played almost all the time... Reworked to hell like this.
Her ult is just amazingly garbage. It's worse than most normal skills in the game, let alone other ults.
I honestly think that Fiora's only viable as a support now. She has a lot of CC and damage reduction and an AoE heal. What a "duelist". Way to ruin another champion, Riot.
...And honestly, that new splash art is Urgot level ugly when her last one was one of my favorites. Way to go boys.
On July 22 2015 07:27 Shikyo wrote: I honestly think that Fiora's only viable as a support now. She has a lot of CC and damage reduction and an AoE heal. What a "duelist". Way to ruin another champion, Riot.
The Fiora change seems weird... I sort of wonder if the change to the ult should have been better as LC's ult in Dota 2, where if she duels someone and wins the duel, she gets flat bonus AD, and if she loses the duel, whoever kills her gets flat bonus AD.
On July 22 2015 07:40 Kinie wrote: The Fiora change seems weird... I sort of wonder if the change to the ult should have been better as LC's ult in Dota 2, where if she duels someone and wins the duel, she gets flat bonus AD, and if she loses the duel, whoever kills her gets flat bonus AD.
The support part is a bit of a joke but I absolutely believe that she'll be a much worse champion assuming the wiki skills are correct, that's such a strange opinion? Lunge dealing less damage and her losing the damage from W without which she already dealt 0 dmg(I even maxed W first vs like Maokai who practically never autos), along with E becoming massively worse and her practically getting no ult...
The only thing I really wanted was her passive applying on when you attack shielded champions. I don't think her strength was such that it needed to be nerfed.
v Well the entire patch isn't out yet at least over here but the Fiora changes are scheduled to be released in 2 weeks apparently.
I'd like to be less negative about GP as well but I really don't feel like he'll enjoy not having the passive bonus damage either. I wonder why Riot is so against passive bonus AD on physical melee champions and then there's Zed.
On July 22 2015 07:27 Shikyo wrote: Right, the coolest champion to play, Fiora... Who was perhaps the only character who could do go to brush at low hp -> triple kill with ravenous hydra lifesteal and ult and resets etc. and who I played almost all the time... Reworked to hell like this.
Her ult is just amazingly garbage. It's worse than most normal skills in the game, let alone other ults.
I honestly think that Fiora's only viable as a support now. She has a lot of CC and damage reduction and an AoE heal. What a "duelist". Way to ruin another champion, Riot.
...And honestly, that new splash art is Urgot level ugly when her last one was one of my favorites. Way to go boys.
Riot is doing that to all the splashes. All the pretty ladies have to look ugly now.
Even though it's a joke, I'm going to play devil's advocate. She has two slows and true damage to set up ganks really easily and deal upfront burst. She isn't going to be doing significantly more damage with items now. As a support, players will be more likely to ignore her as she ults them which gives her a higher likelyhood of getting off a channeled ult. Which seems to be an amazing utility spell.
The rework really reminds me of Irelia, but much worse.
On July 22 2015 07:27 Shikyo wrote: Right, the coolest champion to play, Fiora... Who was perhaps the only character who could do go to brush at low hp -> triple kill with ravenous hydra lifesteal and ult and resets etc. and who I played almost all the time... Reworked to hell like this.
Her ult is just amazingly garbage. It's worse than most normal skills in the game, let alone other ults.
I honestly think that Fiora's only viable as a support now. She has a lot of CC and damage reduction and an AoE heal. What a "duelist". Way to ruin another champion, Riot.
...And honestly, that new splash art is Urgot level ugly when her last one was one of my favorites. Way to go boys.
Riot is doing that to all the splashes. All the pretty ladies have to look ugly now.
She isn't going to be doing significantly more damage with items now.
Q on a 4 second CD applying on-hits with 1.15 bonus AD ratio and her passive %health true damage scaling with AD and being an AD champion with a 4 second gap closer means she won't be doing significantly more damage with items.
It was only announced, Zess, so probably in 2 to 4 weeks.
On July 22 2015 07:06 FinestHour wrote: for the record i think the rework was actually good in terms of new abilities and playstyle
but man all that P E R C E N T H E A L T H T R U E D A M A G E
I'm genuinely curious about your thoughts regarding the healing part of her ult then. After all, she's supposed to be a duelist but that part is healing as part of/sometimes after the duel, and AoE in a way that specifically benefits allies standing in the same place.
to me its a clear indication that they wanna add additional benefit/incentive to promote grouping up 5v5 etc as that character, lets you choose if u wanna sit top or joining earlier depending on team and item path etc etc more choices aka more S T A T E G I C D I V E R S I T Y afk top 40 min 1v1god go jax trynd or join fight sooner rumble new fiora with little tankier build irelia etc
I actually think her ultimate (and entire kit) looks amazing. In a 1v1 you can trigger 3 procs pretty much instantly, 1 from regular passive then ult and use E as an auto reset to get second and third immediately. That's alot of damage and healing from her passive alone. In teamfights you just need to proc one of the weak points to trigger it's healing aura for your team.
From what I've seen on streams she looks like a blast to play.
EDIT: I used wrong values...disregard all scaling...
Her passive true damage scaling is ok, but its base is solid too. With 300 ad she will do around 15% %mx true damage per passive proc. This is compared to vaynes 8%+60 every 3 attacks. With 150AD she will do like 8-10%, which seems like enough.
Her Q has low base damage, and medium scaling, it does a bit less damage than unisolated khazix Q, nowhere near a panth Q. However, it is very very low CD mobility. At max CDR if it hits a champion it has a 2.4 second CD....insanely mobile.
W has decent base damage, but most importantly it dodges hard CC and outputs a stun. This is incredibly incredibly strong in a 1v1 situation. Many Many champions cannot win a duel if their main skill is negated, plus a stun.
E is interesting because it disincentivizes crit over 50%. Honestly its not very impressive as a skill, but it makes her a bit stickier.
Ult does massive true damage, and gives a huge MS boost. Like 60% true damage at 300AD. The heal is enormous at max, like 300hp a second for 5 seconds, 1500hp total. Considering you get it if she ults and you burst the target, its SUPER strong teamfight tool. The AD scaling on the heal is not fantastic compared to the base, you still get like 230 heal even at 150ad.
Honestly this all depends on how able she its to passive proc. It seems to me that her scaling isn't strong enough to warrant a full damage build, she really wants max CDR for her Q mobility, and enough tankiness to survive to continue to passive proc.
With NO ad built at all she will do ~8% true per passive proc...So a maxed vayne W every hit. With base damages and 40% CDR she should be able to bounce around and melt people while being incredibly tanky. I mean that kills anyone regardless of defensive stats in 7-12 hits.
I just don't see the point of going full tank, when you can kill literally anyone they send at you while splitting. CDR boots, brut and runes/masteries get you close enough to max CDR. I suppose if you're behind. I'd probably still go Tforce->Brut->Maw->Mallet.
Are you sure you're not confusing total AD and bonus AD, sobek?
On July 22 2015 08:25 FinestHour wrote: to me its a clear indication that they wanna add additional benefit/incentive to promote grouping up 5v5 etc as that character, lets you choose if u wanna sit top or joining earlier depending on team and item path etc etc more choices aka more S T A T E G I C D I V E R S I T Y afk top 40 min 1v1god go jax trynd or join fight sooner rumble new fiora with little tankier build irelia etc
Oh, so because it brings something new to the table compared to similar (eg. "diving bruiser") champions? It makes sense, although it still annoys me wrt the whole "grand duelist" theme. I don't know if Irelia really wants to "join" fights. I mean, she sure does, but Rumble, or even champions like Malphite are totally fine with straight-up 5v5 grouped fights early, while Irelia is more about skirmishes, catching people isolated, or setting up flanks, so sieging or posturing about objectives isn't really her thing in comparison.
On July 22 2015 08:25 FinestHour wrote: to me its a clear indication that they wanna add additional benefit/incentive to promote grouping up 5v5 etc as that character, lets you choose if u wanna sit top or joining earlier depending on team and item path etc etc more choices aka more S T A T E G I C D I V E R S I T Y afk top 40 min 1v1god go jax trynd or join fight sooner rumble new fiora with little tankier build irelia etc
Oh, so because it brings something new to the table compared to similar (eg. "diving bruiser") champions? It makes sense, although it still annoys me wrt the whole "grand duelist" theme. I don't know if Irelia really wants to "join" fights. I mean, she sure does, but Rumble, or even champions like Malphite are totally fine with straight-up 5v5 grouped fights early, while Irelia is more about skirmishes, catching people isolated, or setting up flanks, so sieging or posturing about objectives isn't really her thing in comparison.
oh, I was going by the surrenderat20, but now the wiki has different values
So no flat scaling whatsoever....huh, well I don't have time to reevaluate
On July 22 2015 09:17 Caiada wrote: I just don't see the point of going full tank, when you can kill literally anyone they send at you while splitting. CDR boots, brut and runes/masteries get you close enough to max CDR. I suppose if you're behind. I'd probably still go Tforce->Brut->Maw->Mallet.
there are a ton of stupidly good duelists if built damage that aren't very useful or particularly good
On July 22 2015 07:27 Shikyo wrote: Right, the coolest champion to play, Fiora... Who was perhaps the only character who could do go to brush at low hp -> triple kill with ravenous hydra lifesteal and ult and resets etc. and who I played almost all the time... Reworked to hell like this.
Her ult is just amazingly garbage. It's worse than most normal skills in the game, let alone other ults.
I honestly think that Fiora's only viable as a support now. She has a lot of CC and damage reduction and an AoE heal. What a "duelist". Way to ruin another champion, Riot.
...And honestly, that new splash art is Urgot level ugly when her last one was one of my favorites. Way to go boys.
Riot is doing that to all the splashes. All the pretty ladies have to look ugly now.
She isn't going to be doing significantly more damage with items now.
Q on a 4 second CD applying on-hits with 1.15 bonus AD ratio and her passive %health true damage scaling with AD and being an AD champion with a 4 second gap closer means she won't be doing significantly more damage with items.
Incomprehensible.
You forgot the most important part, she's melee and she doesn't have an untargetable skill or Trynd ult. She doesn't have a damage amp like Zed/Yi nor good escapes like Zed used to.
I was just looking at her PBE abilities and had some time to think about this without just a knee jerk reaction. This kit is just like Irelia, but worse. You have a gap closer to enemies, but it targets enemy champions, so you can't use it to farm. It's also only 400 units rather than 650. It's yet to be seen if she can use it as an escape. She deals true damage which also heals her, but it's a random debuff most of the time making it less reliable than Irelia. She gains CC/damage immunity with the chance to slow/stun on a skillshot. Irelia gains tenacity passively and has a chance to slow/stun on auto, so both are much more reliable.
Fiora has a weird, 'Don't fight me in my ult' ability. While Irelia has a guaranteed wave clear/heal/snipe ult. I think the biggest problem is her lack of waveclear. I thought she'd go classic triforce into bork. Bork so she can get off her 4 procs during her ult easier, but she's going to need a hydra for waveclear. Unless lunge AOE damage, which I doubt.
Fiora parries all incoming damage and disables for the next 0.75 seconds and then slashes in the target direction
The wording on this is pretty interesting. It stops -all- damage and cc for .75 seconds? That's actually really significant if you can play that out properly.
It can even block true damage since they mention Darius' ult. And her Q is ground-targeted now, although with only 400 range it's possible that it doesn't jump walls.
On July 22 2015 09:46 Alaric wrote: It can even block true damage since they mention Darius' ult. And her Q is ground-targeted now, although with only 400 range it's possible that it doesn't jump walls.
ekkos E only has 325 range but it can cross the fat wall from outside of base to wolves that you can barely flash.
On July 22 2015 07:27 Shikyo wrote: Right, the coolest champion to play, Fiora... Who was perhaps the only character who could do go to brush at low hp -> triple kill with ravenous hydra lifesteal and ult and resets etc. and who I played almost all the time... Reworked to hell like this.
Her ult is just amazingly garbage. It's worse than most normal skills in the game, let alone other ults.
I honestly think that Fiora's only viable as a support now. She has a lot of CC and damage reduction and an AoE heal. What a "duelist". Way to ruin another champion, Riot.
...And honestly, that new splash art is Urgot level ugly when her last one was one of my favorites. Way to go boys.
Riot is doing that to all the splashes. All the pretty ladies have to look ugly now.
She isn't going to be doing significantly more damage with items now.
Q on a 4 second CD applying on-hits with 1.15 bonus AD ratio and her passive %health true damage scaling with AD and being an AD champion with a 4 second gap closer means she won't be doing significantly more damage with items.
Incomprehensible.
You forgot the most important part, she's melee and she doesn't have an untargetable skill or Trynd ult. She doesn't have a damage amp like Zed/Yi nor good escapes like Zed used to.
I was just looking at her PBE abilities and had some time to think about this without just a knee jerk reaction. This kit is just like Irelia, but worse. You have a gap closer to enemies, but it targets enemy champions, so you can't use it to farm. It's also only 400 units rather than 650. It's yet to be seen if she can use it as an escape. She deals true damage which also heals her, but it's a random debuff most of the time making it less reliable than Irelia. She gains CC/damage immunity with the chance to slow/stun on a skillshot. Irelia gains tenacity passively and has a chance to slow/stun on auto, so both are much more reliable.
Fiora has a weird, 'Don't fight me in my ult' ability. While Irelia has a guaranteed wave clear/heal/snipe ult. I think the biggest problem is her lack of waveclear. I thought she'd go classic triforce into bork. Bork so she can get off her 4 procs during her ult easier, but she's going to need a hydra for waveclear. Unless lunge AOE damage, which I doubt.
Fiora parries all incoming damage and disables for the next 0.75 seconds and then slashes in the target direction
The wording on this is pretty interesting. It stops -all- damage and cc for .75 seconds? That's actually really significant if you can play that out properly.
Yeah, that's why I kind of got the impression you didn't really read much of it.
W parries all damage for .75 seconds, yes. Kinda the whole point of the E rework. It slows 50% regardless of what you dodge, and even still E is another 65% slow. Botrk is redundant, only necessary for possible duels and because Q procs it.
Q can be targeted anywhere. It then attacks the nearest target, whatever it is, probably prioritizing champions but explicitly prioritizing things in kill range. You know it can be targeted anywhere because it only gets the refund if it hits something.
The passive is much more damage than Irelia. She'll duel much better than Irelia. She has an escape, Irelia does not. Her ult is a lot more potential damage than Irelia's and is teamfight presence (or skirmish, at least.) In exchange, no free tenacity, a whole lot less healing, and a harder lane phase.
Hydra applying on Q makes it an obvious choice over BotRK, especially given she makes shit use of attack speed and needs the passive to split.
That's the definition of knee jerk. You saw true damage on a melee with a gapclosing Q and immediately assumed shittier Irelia and poor item scaling.
On July 22 2015 07:27 Shikyo wrote: Right, the coolest champion to play, Fiora... Who was perhaps the only character who could do go to brush at low hp -> triple kill with ravenous hydra lifesteal and ult and resets etc. and who I played almost all the time... Reworked to hell like this.
Her ult is just amazingly garbage. It's worse than most normal skills in the game, let alone other ults.
I honestly think that Fiora's only viable as a support now. She has a lot of CC and damage reduction and an AoE heal. What a "duelist". Way to ruin another champion, Riot.
...And honestly, that new splash art is Urgot level ugly when her last one was one of my favorites. Way to go boys.
Riot is doing that to all the splashes. All the pretty ladies have to look ugly now.
She isn't going to be doing significantly more damage with items now.
Q on a 4 second CD applying on-hits with 1.15 bonus AD ratio and her passive %health true damage scaling with AD and being an AD champion with a 4 second gap closer means she won't be doing significantly more damage with items.
Incomprehensible.
You forgot the most important part, she's melee and she doesn't have an untargetable skill or Trynd ult. She doesn't have a damage amp like Zed/Yi nor good escapes like Zed used to.
I was just looking at her PBE abilities and had some time to think about this without just a knee jerk reaction. This kit is just like Irelia, but worse. You have a gap closer to enemies, but it targets enemy champions, so you can't use it to farm. It's also only 400 units rather than 650. It's yet to be seen if she can use it as an escape. She deals true damage which also heals her, but it's a random debuff most of the time making it less reliable than Irelia. She gains CC/damage immunity with the chance to slow/stun on a skillshot. Irelia gains tenacity passively and has a chance to slow/stun on auto, so both are much more reliable.
Fiora has a weird, 'Don't fight me in my ult' ability. While Irelia has a guaranteed wave clear/heal/snipe ult. I think the biggest problem is her lack of waveclear. I thought she'd go classic triforce into bork. Bork so she can get off her 4 procs during her ult easier, but she's going to need a hydra for waveclear. Unless lunge AOE damage, which I doubt.
Fiora parries all incoming damage and disables for the next 0.75 seconds and then slashes in the target direction
The wording on this is pretty interesting. It stops -all- damage and cc for .75 seconds? That's actually really significant if you can play that out properly.
Having just played two games of Fiora on the PBE:
Her Q can be used to farm. It also procs hydra. It can also be used to escape over thin walls, though I haven't managed to, say, jump the wall to wraiths that tricky Nidalees can use. It prioritizes champions and then stuff in kill range.
I'm not sure if W stops *all* damage, but it stops just about everything. Doesn't help much vs DoT (ignite) or DoT-like damage (laser turrets) though. W can also act as AoE farm to a small extent if you level it but I think that's a bad idea.
Her R *is* weird. So far I've had a much easier time proccing it by killing things than by hitting all 4 sides because when people run away her minigame gets very difficult. The healing is very powerful even if it's thematically confusing.
Also, her passive "weak points" do stay in place and do not rotate with enemy champion movement.
So I guess time to just play Soraka, get an early zeke's, and give my two item ADC permanent 100% crit chance in team fights? Like, why would they think that this item is a good idea?
Ekko's E is a blink, so as long as you can cross over half of a terrain element you'll get placed on the other side. Dashes don't work that way because if their range is too short to cross the whole wall you'll simply faceplant into it, so you can't use that "over half" rule with them, see: Graves, Shen, etc. Riven's an exception but that's because Riot pampers her for whatever the heck reason they deem fit, something about "expressing skill".
On July 22 2015 10:20 Alaric wrote: Ekko's E is a blink, so as long as you can cross over half of a terrain element you'll get placed on the other side. Dashes don't work that way because if their range is too short to cross the whole wall you'll simply faceplant into it, so you can't use that "over half" rule with them, see: Graves, Shen, etc. Riven's an exception but that's because Riot pampers her for whatever the heck reason they deem fit, something about "expressing skill".
no, he can cross the fat wolf wall with only the dash part, it just very a very generous dash
On July 22 2015 10:20 Alaric wrote: Ekko's E is a blink, so as long as you can cross over half of a terrain element you'll get placed on the other side. Dashes don't work that way because if their range is too short to cross the whole wall you'll simply faceplant into it, so you can't use that "over half" rule with them, see: Graves, Shen, etc. Riven's an exception but that's because Riot pampers her for whatever the heck reason they deem fit, something about "expressing skill".
And Nidalee's isn't, has a range of 375, and still hops walls.
On July 22 2015 10:11 GolemMadness wrote: So I guess time to just play Soraka, get an early zeke's, and give my two item ADC permanent 100% crit chance in team fights? Like, why would they think that this item is a good idea?
I'm pretty sure it increases your linked targets existing crit chance by 50%...so like if they have 50% crit it boosts it to 75% total. If they have 20% they get 30% total. If they have 0% they get nothing. Thats what I heard.
On July 22 2015 07:27 Shikyo wrote: Right, the coolest champion to play, Fiora... Who was perhaps the only character who could do go to brush at low hp -> triple kill with ravenous hydra lifesteal and ult and resets etc. and who I played almost all the time... Reworked to hell like this.
Her ult is just amazingly garbage. It's worse than most normal skills in the game, let alone other ults.
I honestly think that Fiora's only viable as a support now. She has a lot of CC and damage reduction and an AoE heal. What a "duelist". Way to ruin another champion, Riot.
...And honestly, that new splash art is Urgot level ugly when her last one was one of my favorites. Way to go boys.
Riot is doing that to all the splashes. All the pretty ladies have to look ugly now.
She isn't going to be doing significantly more damage with items now.
Q on a 4 second CD applying on-hits with 1.15 bonus AD ratio and her passive %health true damage scaling with AD and being an AD champion with a 4 second gap closer means she won't be doing significantly more damage with items.
Incomprehensible.
You forgot the most important part, she's melee and she doesn't have an untargetable skill or Trynd ult. She doesn't have a damage amp like Zed/Yi nor good escapes like Zed used to.
I was just looking at her PBE abilities and had some time to think about this without just a knee jerk reaction. This kit is just like Irelia, but worse. You have a gap closer to enemies, but it targets enemy champions, so you can't use it to farm. It's also only 400 units rather than 650. It's yet to be seen if she can use it as an escape. She deals true damage which also heals her, but it's a random debuff most of the time making it less reliable than Irelia. She gains CC/damage immunity with the chance to slow/stun on a skillshot. Irelia gains tenacity passively and has a chance to slow/stun on auto, so both are much more reliable.
Fiora has a weird, 'Don't fight me in my ult' ability. While Irelia has a guaranteed wave clear/heal/snipe ult. I think the biggest problem is her lack of waveclear. I thought she'd go classic triforce into bork. Bork so she can get off her 4 procs during her ult easier, but she's going to need a hydra for waveclear. Unless lunge AOE damage, which I doubt.
Fiora parries all incoming damage and disables for the next 0.75 seconds and then slashes in the target direction
The wording on this is pretty interesting. It stops -all- damage and cc for .75 seconds? That's actually really significant if you can play that out properly.
Having just played two games of Fiora on the PBE:
Her Q can be used to farm. It also procs hydra. It can also be used to escape over thin walls, though I haven't managed to, say, jump the wall to wraiths that tricky Nidalees can use. It prioritizes champions and then stuff in kill range.
I'm not sure if W stops *all* damage, but it stops just about everything. Doesn't help much vs DoT (ignite) or DoT-like damage (laser turrets) though. W can also act as AoE farm to a small extent if you level it but I think that's a bad idea.
Her R *is* weird. So far I've had a much easier time proccing it by killing things than by hitting all 4 sides because when people run away her minigame gets very difficult. The healing is very powerful even if it's thematically confusing.
Also, her passive "weak points" do stay in place and do not rotate with enemy champion movement.
edit: guess I was beaten to the punch.
Oh, you're supposed to attack different sides of the hit box to proc her passive? That doesn't seem very likely to happen. Does the ult AOE follow the enemy while they move?
On July 22 2015 07:27 Shikyo wrote: Right, the coolest champion to play, Fiora... Who was perhaps the only character who could do go to brush at low hp -> triple kill with ravenous hydra lifesteal and ult and resets etc. and who I played almost all the time... Reworked to hell like this.
Her ult is just amazingly garbage. It's worse than most normal skills in the game, let alone other ults.
I honestly think that Fiora's only viable as a support now. She has a lot of CC and damage reduction and an AoE heal. What a "duelist". Way to ruin another champion, Riot.
...And honestly, that new splash art is Urgot level ugly when her last one was one of my favorites. Way to go boys.
Riot is doing that to all the splashes. All the pretty ladies have to look ugly now.
She isn't going to be doing significantly more damage with items now.
Q on a 4 second CD applying on-hits with 1.15 bonus AD ratio and her passive %health true damage scaling with AD and being an AD champion with a 4 second gap closer means she won't be doing significantly more damage with items.
Incomprehensible.
You forgot the most important part, she's melee and she doesn't have an untargetable skill or Trynd ult. She doesn't have a damage amp like Zed/Yi nor good escapes like Zed used to.
I was just looking at her PBE abilities and had some time to think about this without just a knee jerk reaction. This kit is just like Irelia, but worse. You have a gap closer to enemies, but it targets enemy champions, so you can't use it to farm. It's also only 400 units rather than 650. It's yet to be seen if she can use it as an escape. She deals true damage which also heals her, but it's a random debuff most of the time making it less reliable than Irelia. She gains CC/damage immunity with the chance to slow/stun on a skillshot. Irelia gains tenacity passively and has a chance to slow/stun on auto, so both are much more reliable.
Fiora has a weird, 'Don't fight me in my ult' ability. While Irelia has a guaranteed wave clear/heal/snipe ult. I think the biggest problem is her lack of waveclear. I thought she'd go classic triforce into bork. Bork so she can get off her 4 procs during her ult easier, but she's going to need a hydra for waveclear. Unless lunge AOE damage, which I doubt.
Fiora parries all incoming damage and disables for the next 0.75 seconds and then slashes in the target direction
The wording on this is pretty interesting. It stops -all- damage and cc for .75 seconds? That's actually really significant if you can play that out properly.
Having just played two games of Fiora on the PBE:
Her Q can be used to farm. It also procs hydra. It can also be used to escape over thin walls, though I haven't managed to, say, jump the wall to wraiths that tricky Nidalees can use. It prioritizes champions and then stuff in kill range.
I'm not sure if W stops *all* damage, but it stops just about everything. Doesn't help much vs DoT (ignite) or DoT-like damage (laser turrets) though. W can also act as AoE farm to a small extent if you level it but I think that's a bad idea.
Her R *is* weird. So far I've had a much easier time proccing it by killing things than by hitting all 4 sides because when people run away her minigame gets very difficult. The healing is very powerful even if it's thematically confusing.
Also, her passive "weak points" do stay in place and do not rotate with enemy champion movement.
edit: guess I was beaten to the punch.
So it says her W prioritizes weak points...does that mean if they have a weak point on their side away from you, and you Q onto them, it teleports you behind them to hit it?
On July 22 2015 07:27 Shikyo wrote: Right, the coolest champion to play, Fiora... Who was perhaps the only character who could do go to brush at low hp -> triple kill with ravenous hydra lifesteal and ult and resets etc. and who I played almost all the time... Reworked to hell like this.
Her ult is just amazingly garbage. It's worse than most normal skills in the game, let alone other ults.
I honestly think that Fiora's only viable as a support now. She has a lot of CC and damage reduction and an AoE heal. What a "duelist". Way to ruin another champion, Riot.
...And honestly, that new splash art is Urgot level ugly when her last one was one of my favorites. Way to go boys.
Riot is doing that to all the splashes. All the pretty ladies have to look ugly now.
She isn't going to be doing significantly more damage with items now.
Q on a 4 second CD applying on-hits with 1.15 bonus AD ratio and her passive %health true damage scaling with AD and being an AD champion with a 4 second gap closer means she won't be doing significantly more damage with items.
Incomprehensible.
You forgot the most important part, she's melee and she doesn't have an untargetable skill or Trynd ult. She doesn't have a damage amp like Zed/Yi nor good escapes like Zed used to.
I was just looking at her PBE abilities and had some time to think about this without just a knee jerk reaction. This kit is just like Irelia, but worse. You have a gap closer to enemies, but it targets enemy champions, so you can't use it to farm. It's also only 400 units rather than 650. It's yet to be seen if she can use it as an escape. She deals true damage which also heals her, but it's a random debuff most of the time making it less reliable than Irelia. She gains CC/damage immunity with the chance to slow/stun on a skillshot. Irelia gains tenacity passively and has a chance to slow/stun on auto, so both are much more reliable.
Fiora has a weird, 'Don't fight me in my ult' ability. While Irelia has a guaranteed wave clear/heal/snipe ult. I think the biggest problem is her lack of waveclear. I thought she'd go classic triforce into bork. Bork so she can get off her 4 procs during her ult easier, but she's going to need a hydra for waveclear. Unless lunge AOE damage, which I doubt.
Fiora parries all incoming damage and disables for the next 0.75 seconds and then slashes in the target direction
The wording on this is pretty interesting. It stops -all- damage and cc for .75 seconds? That's actually really significant if you can play that out properly.
Having just played two games of Fiora on the PBE:
Her Q can be used to farm. It also procs hydra. It can also be used to escape over thin walls, though I haven't managed to, say, jump the wall to wraiths that tricky Nidalees can use. It prioritizes champions and then stuff in kill range.
I'm not sure if W stops *all* damage, but it stops just about everything. Doesn't help much vs DoT (ignite) or DoT-like damage (laser turrets) though. W can also act as AoE farm to a small extent if you level it but I think that's a bad idea.
Her R *is* weird. So far I've had a much easier time proccing it by killing things than by hitting all 4 sides because when people run away her minigame gets very difficult. The healing is very powerful even if it's thematically confusing.
Also, her passive "weak points" do stay in place and do not rotate with enemy champion movement.
edit: guess I was beaten to the punch.
Oh, you're supposed to attack different sides of the hit box to proc her passive? That doesn't seem very likely to happen. Does the ult AOE follow the enemy while they move?
On July 22 2015 10:11 GolemMadness wrote: So I guess time to just play Soraka, get an early zeke's, and give my two item ADC permanent 100% crit chance in team fights? Like, why would they think that this item is a good idea?
I'm pretty sure it increases your linked targets existing crit chance by 50%...so like if they have 50% crit it boosts it to 75% total. If they have 20% they get 30% total. If they have 0% they get nothing. Thats what I heard.
Heard from whom? It just says that it gives 50% crit chance.
Once again, reddit brings forth some interesting ideas. If Fiora rework goes through as is, people are talking about going 40% CDR with her and calling the build Unlimited Bladeworks.
On July 22 2015 10:11 GolemMadness wrote: So I guess time to just play Soraka, get an early zeke's, and give my two item ADC permanent 100% crit chance in team fights? Like, why would they think that this item is a good idea?
I'm pretty sure it increases your linked targets existing crit chance by 50%...so like if they have 50% crit it boosts it to 75% total. If they have 20% they get 30% total. If they have 0% they get nothing. Thats what I heard.
Heard from whom? It just says that it gives 50% crit chance.
He's wrong. They specifically stated new Zeke's gives 50% additive crit chance.
He is streaming right now but a whole bunch of adware just popped up and playing ad messages on the background including "Your computer is infected by a virus!"
They hate Eve and nerf her anytime she starts seeing play. Which is kind of funny since they nerfed her into a joke pick then reworked her and had to gut everything about her kit afterwards. Now they still hate her enough to keep nerfing lol. Talk about a failed rework.
Fiora's old splash was already pretty terrible (and the supposed French accent was quite ridiculously off mark too). Sobek talked about her numbers, but they scale with her level, so a level 18 Fiora with 150 bonus AD (not unrealistic with 2 of Hydra/Triforce/BC/IE and masteries/runes) would deal 9.75% maxHP true damage per vital, up to 39% if she manages to trigger all 4 on her ult-tank busting at its finest. Each strike heals her for 122 HP and her ult would heal for 230/s for 5 seconds.
At level 13 with 100 bonus AD (she'd have more, mind you), it's 7% per vital, up to 28% "at once" with her ult and 92 HP per hit + 170 HP/s for 5s.
With no bonus AD whatsoever it's still only 3% -> 12% so she's gonna need to build some AD to get the benefits of vitals (and her ult's healing, she still gets 30~60% bonus MS whenever she's in the zone so if she triggers it and is dangerous enough you really don't want to stick around or lob skillshots at her till you lure her out), but the current scaling is really high (and the potential to one-shot a squishy with that kind of AD with her full ult is there).
These are numbers so they can be tuned, but her AD ratio on the true damage scales very aggressively at the later levels, and the heal is actually pretty strong (consider that based on the video, once she hits a vital she gets a new one 2-3s later; it's more important in the midgame since her passive's heal isn't backloaded in levels and unless your comp runs a burst mage (not popular atm, save for support Annie-stuff) people will live longer, letting you trigger it more often in a fight).
With such numbers/potential, though, I'd see her as similar to Garen in how she can handle fights and her targets, with less tankiness but more damage overall (especially dps, and less reliance on her ult) and more team utility. That is, she can help kill tanks really fast and run at squishies to scare them/burst them down if they wander too close, and she's very very resilient to damage if she gets her way, but she has to mind her positioning between the frontline and the backline. 1v5 she gets killed rather than kited though.
On July 22 2015 11:16 Gahlo wrote: That tower just got wrecked, holy.
I think making the tower not consume the buff somehow is even worse, if you attack an inhib it doesn't consume the buff and you get another .8 attacks a second for several seconds, that is, until the buff timer runs out. I guess there's another alternative but I'm not sure what would make sense.
Wow that new one looks horrible. Why would you remove the hair style and go for this generic ass shit? The "sass" is gone lol. She used to be this hot "edgy" girl that would wreck your face with a blade and now she's this old white woman wtf. I HATE when they rework champs like this so much. Destroys their old identity and gives them a completely new one. Why not just make a new champ instead?
After testing the new HUD in an ARAM, it's trash (also the ARAM is so much more zoomed in wtf).
Icons in champion stats are uselessly detailed for their size so you lose in clarity/readibility. The score isn't at the top anymore but shoved in the bottom right-corner with an even smaller font than before, along with your cs. They switched champion portrait+items with stats. So now champion stats are the leftmost thing on the screen (eg. further from the rest), 'cause the champion portrait is way more important and has to be more accessible to the eye, right?
The "tab" menu is all crammed now, so even if icons are the same size (or slightly bigger it looks like?) I had a really hard time just finding an opponent's build by tapping tap and glancing.
Yes, sure, I know, I'll get better used to it after a few games. BUT HOLY SHIT IS IT STILL BAD DESPITE THAT.
Death recap is still bugged since minions deal true damage to me.
Mentioned this in the FAQ. We are adding additional sliders for more individual control over UI scaling, but we will not be creating a fully modular UI. B/c of setup differences and accessibility needs, we will always provide limited adjustments, but ultimately we want you to play the game, not the UI. The competitive integrity angle is important as well, though it's more relevant to information haves and have-nots. It comes down to this: we want players to focus their energy into playing and improving at the game, not researching and tweaking their UI into an "optimal" state.
This is one of the people who is making this.I mean I legit got cancer from reading this.Keep in mind runes and masteries exist.
On July 22 2015 08:34 Jek wrote: I actually think her ultimate (and entire kit) looks amazing. In a 1v1 you can trigger 3 procs pretty much instantly, 1 from regular passive then ult and use E as an auto reset to get second and third immediately. That's alot of damage and healing from her passive alone. In teamfights you just need to proc one of the weak points to trigger it's healing aura for your team.
From what I've seen on streams she looks like a blast to play.
Relevant flair Janna.
On July 22 2015 10:11 GolemMadness wrote: So I guess time to just play Soraka, get an early zeke's, and give my two item ADC permanent 100% crit chance in team fights? Like, why would they think that this item is a good idea?
Seems like a perfect time to play Yasuo. Have a hydra, 100% boost to dps for 6 seconds :D Or an IE, 43% increase in dps.
Here's my opinion first glance on Fiora rework that will turn out to be totally wrong when it's released:
The Fiora rework seems really weird to me.
I get the thought process behind it. Fiora on live is a really dumb champion.
But the way they're doing it, while well intentioned, just seems odd to me.
They're giving her a ton of %HP true damage, the ability to block targeted CC similar to Braum (Lunge in the way of it and Riposte), and her healing aura on the ult will have more value if it's placed inside your team, rather than inside the enemy.
This makes it seem like the best place for her will be killing tanks and protecting your backline, which is just such a weird place for Fiora to be. It doesn't feel like Fiora.
As a diver, she'll be best buddying up with lots of other divers. If 3 people are focusing the same guy she doesn't really have to hit all 4 marks for her ult, you just all jump on somebody and delete them and then get the aura under you to fight the enemy team on after. So the more dive there is, the more value her ult will have.
So I feel like if her numbers are reasonable, she'll be good in teams with 2-3 diving champions as sort of a utility assist diver. If she's the only diver she'll probably be lackluster unless her numbers are overtuned, or she'll end up killing the tank that's on your carry with all her true damage.
It just doesn't feel like Fiora anymore to me.
But hey, I don't want this to be in the game anymore anyway. + Show Spoiler +
Just because Fiora gets %true damage, it doesn't make her a tank. I've tried tank Yi and Jayce before and several people have tried tank Vayne. It sucks. Most of your damage does not come from true damage, and if you try to build tank, you'll get outdamaged by the fucking Alistar with 2 damaging abilities, 1 single target because he survives longer and can sit further in the fight with his sunfire ticking. Or the Sejuani who used to have 12% single target max health with some base damage, and 12% plus base of her health magic damage in an AoE on a 7 second cooldown.
I feel Yanger brought up a good point to me. All they really had to do with make her omnislash hit creeps too and touch up some of her other abilities like riposte. This complete rework seems odd. I have a bigger issue with the visuals than gameplay though. She used to be smoking hot and now she's old white woman :<
He said her place is to kill tanks, not to tank herself, which is true. Get BC and Hydra or something, ult the Shyvana or Sion diving your team, using the ult's and passive's speed boosts, dash from Q and slow from E to trigger the Vitals asap, and you're looking at ~30% of the enemy's HP in true damage (more at later levels), on top of whatever else you do (like other Vitals struck before, the crit from E, etc.)
You could compare it to Garen saving his ult to execute the super tank diving his backline as a way to protect it (I did the math awhile back and his level 3 ult kills a Shyvana with 150 MR once she reaches 1/6th of her HP, so equivalent to ~16% maxHP true damage). She doesn't need to build tanky to do that, although in that case you'll probably require a frontliner on your team either way.
Oh, and Riposte blocks what hits her, so she can't intercept projectiles with it the way Braum (and Yasuo) does. And Numy and I have different tastes in women.
On July 22 2015 22:38 Alaric wrote: He said her place is to kill tanks, not to tank herself, which is true. Get BC and Hydra or something, ult the Shyvana or Sion diving your team, using the ult's and passive's speed boosts, dash from Q and slow from E to trigger the Vitals asap, and you're looking at ~30% of the enemy's HP in true damage, on top of whatever else you do (like other Vitals struck before, the crit from E, etc.)
You could compare it to Garen saving his ult to execute the super tank diving his backline as a way to protect it (I did the math awhile back and his level 3 ult kills a Shyvana with 150 MR once she reaches 1/6th of her HP, so equivalent to ~16% maxHP true damage). She doesn't need to build tanky to do that, although in that case you'll probably require a frontliner on your team either way.
Oh, and Riposte blocks what hits her, so she can't intercept projectiles with it the way Braum (and Yasuo) does. And Numy and I have different tastes in women.
Not him, other people are clearly saying Tank Fiora will be a thing.
I love legs. I love thighs. I love dark hair. I love that whole black hair slightly over face thing. I loved how dangerous she looked. Those things are all gone :<. The old her would put on a strapon and show you how to use your genitals. That's hot man.
As for her gameplay. The only viable top laners are ones that either go full tank and deal shitton of damage or build 1/2 damage items into full tank. Her kit looks like it fits into the latter perfectly fine. I don't quite like her ultimate as it feels contrary to the rest of her kit design(Ie: splitpusher). Instead of further her strengths it feels like they tried to hemorrhage a bit on it. Maybe if it gave huge arpen like Yasuo ulti if you hit all 4 I'd like it more or a big slow.
Funny thing you can't see your dominion points in game because of the new hud.This is to you guys who say riot tests things.
Looks in mobas overrated imo.As long as they shit isn't just bad to look at it is fine.There are a lot of champs that are ugly but still work really well in game she doesn't.
On July 22 2015 23:21 Caiada wrote: I just can't believe people defend Fiora's old ult. Baffling.
Well I don't think they'd be anything wrong with it if it hit creeps. Maybe it's just all my years of dota but I find nothing wrong with champs having powerful skills. The whole "counterplay" argument to me feels a bit hollow as there are some aspects of Mobas where the only correct "counterplay" is just to not be in that position in the first place. The current passive doesn't seem to add any more "counterplay" either as it's fixed orientation so there's no way to "protect" the spots other than just moving away which is well the same "counterplay" as before.
Not on the ult itself, but its synergy with Hydra, splitting up when Fiora casts it, while remaining close enough that she'll hit different champions (especially tankier ones, that support Soraka can gtfo the AoE) counteracts the splash damage. She's also predictable in that she'll reappear on top of her initial target.
I'm not saying it's the same since you can respectively Flash it or outright cancel it (less cases after recent fix but still there), but the best way to lower the impact of Malphite's and Brand's ultimates is also to spread out.
You have a weak spot on the top side, Fiora's to your left. She'll Q you to get to it. Instead you move up with her. The Q misses. Counterplay.
If you're one single player in a lane with current Fiora ahead enough to matter, she would kill you 100%. Flash->Q-Ult dead. All you can do is Zhonya's, which likely keeps you in close enough range to die anyway. I don't even care about teamfights. If you skirmish with her and stay too close, but also not far enough away, you're both probably dead.
It's one of the most boring abilities in the game. Zero interaction, zero interesting plays, just R and hope your gold value's high enough.
On July 23 2015 00:47 Numy wrote: Is anyone else on EUW having issue moving items in their inventory and displaying their ping? Am I missing a button or something.
Inventory works fine for me so far and ping/fps with ctrl f works too. I did have the options menu go a bit crazy and put checkboxes where there weren't any though.
Just played with the new UI for the first time. Honestly, don't have much issue with it. Yeah, I couldn't find things at times, but it's still new so I didn't expect to find everything easily. Felt kind of silly to still have the time and ping readouts in the top when they pulled everything else up there down.
About Fiora's redo: The kit is ugh, whatever... but the models are fucking awful.
On July 23 2015 00:47 Numy wrote: Is anyone else on EUW having issue moving items in their inventory and displaying their ping? Am I missing a button or something.
Inventory works fine for me so far and ping/fps with ctrl f works too. I did have the options menu go a bit crazy and put checkboxes where there weren't any though.
Are you playing with minimap on right or left? Hovering over my inventory doesn't even do anything.
On July 23 2015 00:47 Numy wrote: Is anyone else on EUW having issue moving items in their inventory and displaying their ping? Am I missing a button or something.
Inventory works fine for me so far and ping/fps with ctrl f works too. I did have the options menu go a bit crazy and put checkboxes where there weren't any though.
Are you playing with minimap on right or left? Hovering over my inventory doesn't even do anything.
On July 22 2015 23:21 Caiada wrote: I just can't believe people defend Fiora's old ult. Baffling.
I don't like the old Ulti. It was a copout like "we have this melee carry, but melee carries suck because they blow up in teamfights. I know! Let's make her untargetable."
On July 22 2015 23:21 Caiada wrote: I just can't believe people defend Fiora's old ult. Baffling.
Well I don't think they'd be anything wrong with it if it hit creeps. Maybe it's just all my years of dota but I find nothing wrong with champs having powerful skills. The whole "counterplay" argument to me feels a bit hollow as there are some aspects of Mobas where the only correct "counterplay" is just to not be in that position in the first place. The current passive doesn't seem to add any more "counterplay" either as it's fixed orientation so there's no way to "protect" the spots other than just moving away which is well the same "counterplay" as before.
I think theoretically you can flash behind her her as she gets to you
On July 22 2015 23:50 Caiada wrote: If you're one single player in a lane with current Fiora ahead enough to matter, she would kill you 100%. Flash->Q-Ult dead. All you can do is Zhonya's, which likely keeps you in close enough range to die anyway. I don't even care about teamfights. If you skirmish with her and stay too close, but also not far enough away, you're both probably dead.
That situation only has no counterplay because the ult can't hit creeps, so there's no way to disperse the damage in a 1v1 scenario. And the skill only behaves that way (as opposed to how the DotA skill it's based on functions) because they specifically wanted to improve usability for the Fiora player and remove counterplay options for the opponent in the first place.
Obviously when you remove a major component of the skill's counterplay, you're left with a very one-dimensional skill.
After a few games with the UI, I really don't see the issue. The one thing I thought I'd miss, champions on the left, is a non-issue after playing with it. You just look at what's onscreen. The character info is condensed in a pretty nice way, particularly turning all the long-winded stuff into icons until you mouse over. Being able to look at the minimap and still see shit like score is nice. The scoreboard is a big functionality improvement with timers and stuff and being able to click-drag champs, though hiding the mute function threw me off at first. The eye candy makes it look a lot nicer. Only things I'm iffy on are item CDs (I liked the position over my skills) and the weird spot for the timer. The timer isn't that relevant with most stuff being on the scoreboard, but it's just weird to have it way up there.
On July 22 2015 22:47 Numy wrote: I love legs. I love thighs. I love dark hair. I love that whole black hair slightly over face thing. I loved how dangerous she looked. Those things are all gone :<. The old her would put on a strapon and show you how to use your genitals. That's hot man.
Would that count as a riposte?
Old fiora was much better mid and possibly bot than top lane, tanks kind of rekked her.
On July 22 2015 22:47 Numy wrote: I love legs. I love thighs. I love dark hair. I love that whole black hair slightly over face thing. I loved how dangerous she looked. Those things are all gone :<. The old her would put on a strapon and show you how to use your genitals. That's hot man.
Would that count as a riposte?
Old fiora was much better mid and possibly bot than top lane, tanks kind of rekked her.
On July 22 2015 22:47 Numy wrote: I love legs. I love thighs. I love dark hair. I love that whole black hair slightly over face thing. I loved how dangerous she looked. Those things are all gone :<. The old her would put on a strapon and show you how to use your genitals. That's hot man.
Would that count as a riposte?
Old fiora was much better mid and possibly bot than top lane, tanks kind of rekked her.
pls stop trying to make fiora bot happen
i already made it happen i got pentakills and shit just because i feed in 5's when im hungry as shit doesnt mean its bad
Fiora is not going to be a tank killer for your backline in teamfights. That is not a niche in this game. A bunch of sycophants said the same thing about returned Olaf.
Ended up with GP in ARAM. They had Jinx so barrels were hard as fuck to use. Basically have to setup a chain before the fight, using bushes, and they have to walk nearby, or you can NEVER use a barrel.
So after playing a couple of games rather than just sitting around in options menus these are the things that annoy me the most.
The disable hud animations option seems to do nothing now and everything on the hud has some fascination with glowing at annoying times.
The scale of the ui is much larger than before and if I want it to not take up the entire screen then I have to accept having small numbers to read. Everything also just feels really compacted, champion icons especially.
I miss having the c menu pop up and being able to read stats from it quickly.
I don't get why they removed names from the scoreboard unless you hover.
I like being able to rearrange the scoreboard and the new minimap though.
The announcer doesn't annoy me too much, it's more a combo: between the accent, the music (it's not too loud, but definitely has more "presence" than the ambient Howling Abyss one) and the sounds of the game, it's not too easy to get what he says sometimes. The parts that annoy me most are the big-ass zoom (I disliked how HA is zoomed out by default because it fucks with your "edge of max range" casts, though... can't they just use the default cam?), and how hard to see this version of "Mark" is. Several times I've gotten clipped by one I should have seen coming, but that colour on the ground + the tinier particle make it really harder to see.
On July 23 2015 03:01 Alaric wrote: Because they're too silly to realise that 300 true damage every 5 seconds is nothing to a dude with 3k+ HP. Your point?
If she could perform that function in teamfights, I don't see how they could make her laning damage to Maokai, etc less. And then she is just an overtuned champion.
On July 22 2015 22:47 Numy wrote: I love legs. I love thighs. I love dark hair. I love that whole black hair slightly over face thing. I loved how dangerous she looked. Those things are all gone :<. The old her would put on a strapon and show you how to use your genitals. That's hot man.
New ultimate skin: Femdom/Pegging Fiora. Oh god why...
at least the nightraven skin is still nice and headmaster. but i agree, i miss the hair over the face
On July 23 2015 03:31 Seuss wrote: The truth of the matter is that anything which kills a tank fast kills non-tanks as fast if not faster. That's why there's no anti-tank niche.
They can work around that with the %health true damage, and make her not solely a tank killer by making it require a ton of AD.
She'll probably be overtuned, but the theory's there.
On July 23 2015 03:01 Alaric wrote: Because they're too silly to realise that 300 true damage every 5 seconds is nothing to a dude with 3k+ HP. Your point?
If she could perform that function in teamfights, I don't see how they could make her laning damage to Maokai, etc less. And then she is just an overtuned champion.
Her base % are low, and her ratios scale with levels, so it doesn't actually look that strong in laning (in a burst situation; as far as sustained damage goes, the whole "random direction to hit from for the bonus" makes it way too volatile to evaluate like that; it looks like its uptime is permanent though, unless Vitals disappear when they're far from Fiora).
You also neglect the %max HP nature of the damage. Olaf's is negligible if people stack HP, Fiora's always relevant. Her ult also brings higher burst potential since Olaf's gated by a cooldown (although depending on RNG it looks like even without her ult she could spam it if a Vital doesn't take too long to activate).
Monte, it depends: the thing is that tank-busting tools are usually made to deal quickly with higher HP pools, such as %current health damage, or to bypass resistances stacking, such as true damage. The former reduces the EHP gap quickly (relatively speaking), but once it's done the squishy still dies way faster to your "sustained damage" than the tank. The latter needs a decent base value so as not to feel too pointless if people stack HP, meaning a squishy who didn't still lose a good chunk of his HP.
You'd need to mix and match mechanics to account for the differences a single one doesn't cover, and you'd end up with stuff like %current health true damage, bonus armour/MR penetration (like Yasuo, but without the silly crit scaling to 2-shot low HP pools), or a combination of "bonus pen" and %health damage so that you can use low enough values to only deal moderate damage to squishies (relative to their EHP) while still taking a large chunk of tanks.
But then you end up with a kit that's really hard to itemise against.
On July 23 2015 03:31 Seuss wrote: The truth of the matter is that anything which kills a tank fast kills non-tanks as fast if not faster. That's why there's no anti-tank niche.
They can work around that with the %health true damage, and make her not solely a tank killer by making it require a ton of AD.
She'll probably be overtuned, but the theory's there.
I don't think she will be overtuned, I just think that in order for her to preform that weird niche people are imagining, she necessarily would be overtuned.
Just to clarify, the people who said Olaf would do this role said it was because of his AS Steroids, not Reckless Swing.
On July 23 2015 03:01 Alaric wrote: Because they're too silly to realise that 300 true damage every 5 seconds is nothing to a dude with 3k+ HP. Your point?
If she could perform that function in teamfights, I don't see how they could make her laning damage to Maokai, etc less. And then she is just an overtuned champion.
Her base % are low, and her ratios scale with levels, so it doesn't actually look that strong in laning (in a burst situation; as far as sustained damage goes, the whole "random direction to hit from for the bonus" makes it way too volatile to evaluate like that; it looks like its uptime is permanent though, unless Vitals disappear when they're far from Fiora).
You also neglect the %max HP nature of the damage. Olaf's is negligible if people stack HP, Fiora's always relevant. Her ult also brings higher burst potential since Olaf's gated by a cooldown (although depending on RNG it looks like even without her ult she could spam it if a Vital doesn't take too long to activate).
Monte, it depends: the thing is that tank-busting tools are usually made to deal quickly with higher HP pools, such as %current health damage, or to bypass resistances stacking, such as true damage. The former reduces the EHP gap quickly (relatively speaking), but once it's done the squishy still dies way faster to your "sustained damage" than the tank. The latter needs a decent base value so as not to feel too pointless if people stack HP, meaning a squishy who didn't still lose a good chunk of his HP.
You'd need to mix and match mechanics to account for the differences a single one doesn't cover, and you'd end up with stuff like %current health true damage, bonus armour/MR penetration (like Yasuo, but without the silly crit scaling to 2-shot low HP pools), or a combination of "bonus pen" and %health damage so that you can use low enough values to only deal moderate damage to squishies (relative to their EHP) while still taking a large chunk of tanks.
But then you end up with a kit that's really hard to itemise against.
Also hard to itemize against in lane. I do think you have a decent idea with making her need several offensive items to really be a tankbuster. Also under that balancing pathway you would give her really bad base/scaling MR so she is weak to poke comps, which would be coming online during her power trough. I could see that working, but it is a powercurve that Riot traditionally doesn't support.
On July 23 2015 03:31 Seuss wrote: The truth of the matter is that anything which kills a tank fast kills non-tanks as fast if not faster. That's why there's no anti-tank niche.
They can work around that with the %health true damage, and make her not solely a tank killer by making it require a ton of AD.
She'll probably be overtuned, but the theory's there.
They can't work around that with the % Health True Damage, it's mathematically impossible.
Imagine a champion who has no damage whatsoever outside of % Health True Damage. The equation for how long it will take them to kill a given enemy is simple:
Time to Kill = 100% / % of Health True Damage per Attack * Rate of Atttack
Notice that Health and Resists are completely absent. The only thing that matters is how many attacks it will take to add up to 100% Health True Damage and how fast you can attack. % Health True Damage makes no distinction between tanks and non-tanks because the stats that separate those categories simply aren't a factor.
Once you start bringing back Physical or Magic damage the calculations instantly swing back toward killing non-tanks faster because Health and Resists matter again. A champion with % Health True Damage will have less differential between how fast they kill tanks and non-tanks, but they will always kill the non-tanks faster.
The reason champions like release Malzahar or Vayne were considered anti-tank champions was primarily because they didn't have the range to attack anything else until the tank was dead (at which point super-broken-release Vayne murdered everyone).
If you want an anti-tank champion you need damage that scales ridiculously off of an opponent's Bonus Health and/or resistances. % Health True Damage won't do the job.
On July 23 2015 03:31 Seuss wrote: The truth of the matter is that anything which kills a tank fast kills non-tanks as fast if not faster. That's why there's no anti-tank niche.
They can work around that with the %health true damage, and make her not solely a tank killer by making it require a ton of AD.
She'll probably be overtuned, but the theory's there.
They can't work around that with the % Health True Damage, it's mathematically impossible.
Imagine a champion who has no damage whatsoever outside of % Health True Damage. The equation for how long it will take them to kill a given enemy is simple:
Time to Kill = 100% / % of Health True Damage per Attack * Rate of Atttack
Notice that Health and Resists are completely absent. The only thing that matters is how many attacks it will take to add up to 100% Health True Damage and how fast you can attack. % Health True Damage makes no distinction between tanks and non-tanks because the stats that separate those categories simply aren't a factor.
Once you start bringing back Physical or Magic damage the calculations instantly swing back toward killing non-tanks faster because Health and Resists matter again. A champion with % Health True Damage will have less differential between how fast they kill tanks and non-tanks, but they will always kill the non-tanks faster.
The reason champions like release Malzahar or Vayne were considered anti-tank champions was primarily because they didn't have the range to attack anything else until the tank was dead (at which point super-broken-release Vayne murdered everyone).
If you want an anti-tank champion you need damage that scales ridiculously off of an opponent's Bonus Health and/or resistances. % Health True Damage won't do the job.
I'm thinking of it more as a scale. A traditional AD kills squishies *much* faster than tanks, while Fiora would kill tanks much quicker than a standard AD while still killing squishies at relatively the same speed/a little faster. Particularly since crit's a little worse for her.
So she would ideally kill squishies at about the same speed and tanks a lot quicker, in exchange for being melee and squishy herself. Conveniently makes her a fantastic duelist as well. You don't need to counter a tank completely, just make it so that it's much more efficient for her to kill tanks in a teamfight.
It sounds like it'll be overtuned to me, so. That's my hangup.
Is there a reason I keep on getting emails for surveys? Maybe it's my habit to fill them out. But like I don't get it. Is it because I've been buying champs when they're on sale?
On July 23 2015 04:42 Seuss wrote: You're basically describing melee Vayne, which is a recipe for "hard to balance" if ever there was one.
She'll be a soloq nightmare fed, almost certainly. But Vayne sucks right now (competitively, no matter what people say) because of her range and Fiora's is even shittier, without invisibility, and very minimal CC.
I think they have their work cut out for them with this kit.
On July 23 2015 03:31 Seuss wrote: The truth of the matter is that anything which kills a tank fast kills non-tanks as fast if not faster. That's why there's no anti-tank niche.
They can work around that with the %health true damage, and make her not solely a tank killer by making it require a ton of AD.
She'll probably be overtuned, but the theory's there.
They can't work around that with the % Health True Damage, it's mathematically impossible.
Imagine a champion who has no damage whatsoever outside of % Health True Damage. The equation for how long it will take them to kill a given enemy is simple:
Time to Kill = 100% / % of Health True Damage per Attack * Rate of Atttack
Notice that Health and Resists are completely absent. The only thing that matters is how many attacks it will take to add up to 100% Health True Damage and how fast you can attack. % Health True Damage makes no distinction between tanks and non-tanks because the stats that separate those categories simply aren't a factor.
Once you start bringing back Physical or Magic damage the calculations instantly swing back toward killing non-tanks faster because Health and Resists matter again. A champion with % Health True Damage will have less differential between how fast they kill tanks and non-tanks, but they will always kill the non-tanks faster.
The reason champions like release Malzahar or Vayne were considered anti-tank champions was primarily because they didn't have the range to attack anything else until the tank was dead (at which point super-broken-release Vayne murdered everyone).
If you want an anti-tank champion you need damage that scales ridiculously off of an opponent's Bonus Health and/or resistances. % Health True Damage won't do the job.
I'm thinking of it more as a scale. A traditional AD kills squishies *much* faster than tanks, while Fiora would kill tanks much quicker than a standard AD while still killing squishies at relatively the same speed/a little faster. Particularly since crit's a little worse for her.
So she would ideally kill squishies at about the same speed and tanks a lot quicker, in exchange for being melee and squishy herself. Conveniently makes her a fantastic duelist as well. You don't need to counter a tank completely, just make it so that it's much more efficient for her to kill tanks in a teamfight.
It sounds like it'll be overtuned to me, so. That's my hangup.
You're describing (to an extent) a traditional DoTA-style hypercarry. So it really just depends on when she "comes online", and if they don't make her powercurve non-linear, they are just going to have to Poppy her.
If Fiora's laning is good, she'll be broken as hell in any nonswap scenario, basically. Q level scaling and passive level scaling give me some hope that they recognized that.
I wonder wtf they'll do with Poppy. The whole kit is dead, obviously, aside from maybe the wall-stun, but beyond that, what're they gonna retain? The assassin nature, the weird automatic tankiness of her passive? The path for Sion was pretty clear. No way he wasn't going to be a tank. It was just a matter of what he'd actually do. But Poppy, they could do any damn thing with. I'm pretty curious how that's gonna go.
On July 23 2015 04:47 cLutZ wrote: You're describing (to an extent) a traditional DoTA-style hypercarry. So it really just depends on when she "comes online", and if they don't make her powercurve non-linear, they are just going to have to Poppy her.
Not really?
Most "hypercarry" melee lategame carries in DotA do so with literally unpeelable ability to kill backline heroes (e.g. 5s CD Blink, Void Ult, Spectre Ult, potentially in combination with BKB). Differential ability to kill frontliners vs. backliners is not in any way a defining characteristic of lategame melee carries in DotA.
I just dont get how they "solved" fiora? they said she was too snowbally and no counterplay, well her new ult seems just as bad. Either you are successful in your ult and create a massive heal zone that basically autowins a fight or you fail and it is a joke of an ult.
o0?
and yea, OP items are much bigger problem then op champion because cant be banned. zekes is a huge problem and needs to be hotfixed. makes you even more reliant on your bot lane then before :/
On July 23 2015 05:55 VayneAuthority wrote: I just dont get how they "solved" fiora? they said she was too snowbally and no counterplay, well her new ult seems just as bad. Either you are successful in your ult and create a massive heal zone that basically autowins a fight or you fail and it is a joke of an ult.
o0?
and yea, OP items are much bigger problem then op champion because cant be banned. zekes is a huge problem and needs to be hotfixed. makes you even more reliant on your bot lane then before :/
Just because its binary doesn't mean it didn't fix the snowball counterplay issue. Now there is a lot of play and counterplay to prevent or assist her in getting a good ult off.
On July 23 2015 05:55 VayneAuthority wrote: I just dont get how they "solved" fiora? they said she was too snowbally and no counterplay, well her new ult seems just as bad. Either you are successful in your ult and create a massive heal zone that basically autowins a fight or you fail and it is a joke of an ult.
o0?
and yea, OP items are much bigger problem then op champion because cant be banned. zekes is a huge problem and needs to be hotfixed. makes you even more reliant on your bot lane then before :/
Just because its binary doesn't mean it didn't fix the snowball counterplay issue. Now there is a lot of play and counterplay to prevent or assist her in getting a good ult off.
unfortunately that isnt good design. just look at katarina. "cc" her ok she either destroys your entire team or does absolutely nothing, little to no competitive play. it's not a good kind of ult to have
On July 23 2015 05:55 VayneAuthority wrote: I just dont get how they "solved" fiora? they said she was too snowbally and no counterplay, well her new ult seems just as bad. Either you are successful in your ult and create a massive heal zone that basically autowins a fight or you fail and it is a joke of an ult.
o0?
and yea, OP items are much bigger problem then op champion because cant be banned. zekes is a huge problem and needs to be hotfixed. makes you even more reliant on your bot lane then before :/
Just because its binary doesn't mean it didn't fix the snowball counterplay issue. Now there is a lot of play and counterplay to prevent or assist her in getting a good ult off.
unfortunately that isnt good design. just look at katarina. "cc" her ok she either destroys your entire team or does absolutely nothing, little to no competitive play. it's not a good kind of ult to have
I agree, just depends how strong the heal is, it looks strong but maybe not that broken. It's still better than old ult which had the binary issue as well as no interaction.
if the new HUD isn't in ranked yet, that means that the files should still be on our computer somewhere right? can't we just overwrite something so it applies to normal games in the game folder?
The blue hue on the minimap makes it harder to read for me, and it doesn't stand out as much from the actual map for me. Bleh. There's so much wrong with it. So much wrong people mentioned too, but better ignore it duh.
I mean, I could get people asking to stop complaining and stuff and that Riot will listen to it, but when the Dominion score thing shows that they didn't even bother testing it thoroughly, you can't expect them to actually change it further based on feedback, even on PBE. They basically changed the icons for oom stuff (and made the cooldown part (and level-up, and skill level-up, because they're basically the same animation, such good intuition!) even more ambiguous/distracting) and moved the game timer to be more visible... after they reduced its font, and without moving the kda, team kills, and cs back top along with it. And that's it.
Well, I played some GP top and the complete lack of mobility and the pretty weak 1v1 ability especially vs dashes(feels impossible to land barrels vs character with those) makes me think that he doesn't really work well in the toplane. Feels like he loses to just about anyone in extended trades and comparing him to another 0 mobility champion, Darius, he doesn't even come close to the pure 1v1ing ability.
Maybe he just needs to be played mid, but I still don't see when you'd have the chance to even proc the passive. As is it just seems to be hitting at the wrong times when you're trying to lasthit or something. If Parrrley procced it, it would help but I realize that that would probably be OP.
The damage of his barrels is pretty crazy with a nice barrel combo and some items but it's a mystery to me how you are supposed to get there...
On July 23 2015 08:33 Shikyo wrote: Well, I played some GP top and the complete lack of mobility and the pretty weak 1v1 ability especially vs dashes(feels impossible to land barrels vs character with those) makes me think that he doesn't really work well in the toplane. Feels like he loses to just about anyone in extended trades and comparing him to another 0 mobility champion, Darius, he doesn't even come close to the pure 1v1ing ability.
Maybe he just needs to be played mid, but I still don't see when you'd have the chance to even proc the passive. As is it just seems to be hitting at the wrong times when you're trying to lasthit or something. If Parrrley procced it, it would help but I realize that that would probably be OP.
The damage of his barrels is pretty crazy with a nice barrel combo and some items but it's a mystery to me how you are supposed to get there...
Maybe he is meant to be played in a laneswap where he can just cheese farm with his Q.
Easiest way to land barrels is dropping them and immediately chaining one you already had in a bush or far back in a minion wave. If you're quick enough, it doesn't matter what you're against. Poke people down by doing that, getting the two passive procs, and running away. Only W on very low health or to remove CC. Start flask, level Q most of the time. I think E might have a place, but getting quicker ult upgrades and the base damage is probably better. Triforce should be your first item 100% of the time, imo. Get Sheen first. Mana is health in lane. After that, probably Hydra, full tank is justifiable if your team needs it. Think Shiv is a bit overrated. If you're against Gnar or some ranged bully, why did you pick GP, but just play ultrasafe and Q farm. Most everyone else, it's just a matter of using barrels and splitting the whole game.
thing is, placing barrel and shooting the first one and then the time for the second barrel to proc, at least for me champions with dashes could get out of the way and you can only do that like, every 30 seconds. But yeah of course I am not playing the champion optimally yet, but on the other hand opponents will become better at fighting vs GP as well...
Just had my teammate Janna's ult knock me back into the enemy team at the same time as it dispersed them. It only happened once (was an ARAM) but that, uh... that was surprising. o_o "Wtf am I propelled into them!? Oh I'm dead."
It's a lot better in scenarios where you're getting chased. That and the slow are why I think there might be some merit to leveling E first. Decreased recharge time and an 80% slow is solid, but at the cost of getting ult upgrades at half the speed...
They should probably increase the tickdown rate, if they do anything to the barrels. Just some usability improvements. His early game at the moment is 'farm and hope you're against somebody you can poke well.' I think his barrels will take a lot of getting used to depending on matchup. He's likely strong enough to split mid-game even if you're even. Barrels and W make you hard to kill solo. W being a lot stronger rank 1 at low health is pretty solid.
Also, I'd definitely build a ton of CDR, the question is where. Boots and a Ghostblade, maybe. But the barrels are too good not to get it somewhere early-ish. GB's flat pen is probably great for barrels as well.
His lategame is better than I'd have thought. The damage and barrel tickdown are silly. But you're still an immobile melee champ.
On July 23 2015 10:49 Slusher wrote: 0-5 Avalon, the more things change the more they stay the same
oh it's not him lol
Did Avalon finally get benched?
Can we pull out all of the comments about Avalon we made to guitar earlier this year and humour him? Or would that be so rude that it's worthy of a ban?
On July 23 2015 10:33 Caiada wrote: I mean, it's mostly a flat buff if you know how to actually play the game, but feel free to think so.
On July 23 2015 10:30 DiracMonopole wrote: GP is so so terrible vs rengar. You cant kill the barrel before he does, if its in leap range from bush.
Yeah, GP into an assassin sounds like a recipe for suffering. He'd probably just straight kill you at the chance and zone you otherwise.
could you post your credentials? you seem to just post for the sake of disagreeing with people on talking down on them. are you even any good?
I don't pretend to be good at playing the game, as if that matters. I just don't like people going off with poorly argued points. Apologies for the overly blunt response.
I disagree because a) that's what arguing and discussion are about, and b) I've got pretty uncommon opinions.
Now, if you've got an actually productive thing to say about current Gangplank, you should probably start with that instead of some vague stuff about identity and ignoring the fact that he's got a whole new damaging skill that's much, *much* better than his old E by absolutely any stretch of logic if you know how to actually use it. The natural conclusion is that somebody who thinks GP was nerfed is that they thus don't know how to use it.
They even raised the mana cost from 65 at all levels to 100 at max rank. That really hurts AP GP's early/mid game sustain. He'll need to be down 1400hp to get the same base healing he had before with his +15% missing hp. 1166 with spirit visage if SV is juicing up the percent increase to healing to 18%. That's not including the .1 ap ratio he's missing. Which is rather negligible. He'll only have 200-300AP at 6 items. Late game it's a buff, but AP GP's laning phase has always been a lesson in masochism. It's going to be even tougher now.
Then his passive isn't doing him an favours, The permaslow had decent utility, now he gets a true damage burn that scales on nonexistent bonus AD. And now it has a CD, so it's not even reliable.
They even raised the mana cost from 65 at all levels to 100 at max rank. That really hurts AP GP's early/mid game sustain. He'll need to be down 1400hp to get the same base healing he had before with his +15% missing hp. 1166 with spirit visage if SV is juicing up the percent increase to healing to 18%. That's not including the .1 ap ratio he's missing. Which is rather negligible. He'll only have 200-300AP at 6 items. Late game it's a buff, but AP GP's laning phase has always been a lesson in masochism. It's going to be even tougher now.
Then his passive isn't doing him an favours, The permaslow had decent utility, now he gets a true damage burn that scales on nonexistent bonus AD. And now it has a CD, so it's not even reliable.
Yeah, AP GP is worthless now. Nothing of value was lost.
W scales worse with levels in it, no reason not to level it last. But it now scales with your character level.
On July 23 2015 11:18 Ketara wrote: I feel like I'm seeing people saying that gangplank is bad relative to old gangplank, but they are maybe forgetting that old gangplank was also bad.
He really wasn't changed very much.
Well, they removed the level 2 all-in cheese with his permaslow and self buff. Support GP is weaker due to his new E. He can't push towers as hard with the new E, but besides that, as an AD, it looks like buffs across the board. He even has waveclear outside of his R now. Which is a moot point because of shiv.
I really have no idea how 75 AD on a champion with a ton of bonus AD scaling, life steal and on-hit on Q, and more waveclear on a splitpusher could be a waste.
On July 23 2015 11:18 Ketara wrote: I feel like I'm seeing people saying that gangplank is bad relative to old gangplank, but they are maybe forgetting that old gangplank was also bad.
He really wasn't changed very much.
That's not a very good reason for a rework :-/
The point is to make a more stable new champion, which can be like Maokai, Orianna, TF, Thresh, etc where they don't face the prospect of being forever irrelevant (like Old GP) or often vacillating between OP/UP from minor changes to items/meta or minor buffs/nerfs (like Xin, Vlad, Riven, Rengar, etc).
If you are Riot, and think GP players won't accept changes to his kit radical enough to achieve that goal, its better to just leave him be as a fringe character that is SoloQ viable. Which also is my opinion on the Fiora rework (because I don't see what role she is supposed to be).
On July 23 2015 11:38 Caiada wrote: I really have no idea how 75 AD on a champion with a ton of bonus AD scaling, life steal and on-hit on Q, and more waveclear on a splitpusher could be a waste.
I guess if I was going 4 or 5 damage items mabye (but I think I'd rather have BT + LW in that case)
or it is more likely that I just hate Tiamat on GP, because of old Tiamat on GP being so much more fun.
Damn, looks like everyone had the same idea I had about AP GP with runeglaive/ludens. I guess I missed the boat. I'm surprised everyone put him in the jungle though.
On July 23 2015 11:38 Caiada wrote: I really have no idea how 75 AD on a champion with a ton of bonus AD scaling, life steal and on-hit on Q, and more waveclear on a splitpusher could be a waste.
I guess if I was going 4 or 5 damage items mabye (but I think I'd rather have BT + LW in that case)
Why LW? He gets a bunch of pen for free on E, which will be most of your teamfight use, and in a duel, you've got 300 true damage every time you reset passive. Ult's magic/true damage as well.
BT or Hydra I could go either way. The effective health on BT is higher from the shield/8% extra lifesteal, but hydra cleave and the active is more damage.
On July 23 2015 11:38 Caiada wrote: I really have no idea how 75 AD on a champion with a ton of bonus AD scaling, life steal and on-hit on Q, and more waveclear on a splitpusher could be a waste.
I guess if I was going 4 or 5 damage items mabye (but I think I'd rather have BT + LW in that case)
Why LW? He gets a bunch of pen for free on E, which will be most of your teamfight use, and in a duel, you've got 300 true damage every time you reset passive. Ult's magic/true damage as well.
BT or Hydra I could go either way. The effective health on BT is higher from the shield/8% extra lifesteal, but hydra cleave and the active is more damage.
He only gets pen on the explosion. It doesn't shred armour. While E is nice and all, his Q will still be his primary form of poke and his autos are still very important.
I personally would lean towards hydra simply because being able to save your barrels for combo chains makes them much more reliable in a team fight or skirmish. Can't contribute as much if you only have 2 barrels from clearing waves.
On July 23 2015 11:18 Ketara wrote: I feel like I'm seeing people saying that gangplank is bad relative to old gangplank, but they are maybe forgetting that old gangplank was also bad.
He really wasn't changed very much.
That's not a very good reason for a rework :-/
The point is to make a more stable new champion, which can be like Maokai, Orianna, TF, Thresh, etc where they don't face the prospect of being forever irrelevant (like Old GP) or often vacillating between OP/UP from minor changes to items/meta or minor buffs/nerfs (like Xin, Vlad, Riven, Rengar, etc).
If you are Riot, and think GP players won't accept changes to his kit radical enough to achieve that goal, its better to just leave him be as a fringe character that is SoloQ viable. Which also is my opinion on the Fiora rework (because I don't see what role she is supposed to be).
I'm not sure that it's clear that barrels don't make GP easier to balance. Barrels themselves have a lot of attributes to tweak compared to pure stats and an aura on cooldown, so I'm leaning towards easier.
On July 23 2015 11:18 Ketara wrote: I feel like I'm seeing people saying that gangplank is bad relative to old gangplank, but they are maybe forgetting that old gangplank was also bad.
He really wasn't changed very much.
I think this new GP is probably better than old GP but I just don't like playing him at all. Granted, I only played one game on him and it was a mirror match up so the lane was wonky but... I dunno, I don't really like the barrels, man. Eh.
On July 23 2015 13:30 JonGalt wrote: So since this patch I have not been able to move my items around and it's rather annoying. Is there a fix? Anyone come across it?
OMG they fixed my biggest gripe with the UI! You can move around the icons in the score screen to change their f key location. That means you can always have certain lanes on certain hotkeys. I'm sure it'll take time to get used to everything else.
Isn't the new Zeke's item kinda broken? Like you can get it on anyone that likes AP,CDR,Armor, and Mana, not just a support. Bind it to whoever's your closest AD champion for the next 60 seconds, and then gain 20% bonus AP and 50% crit for both of you for 6 seconds of like every 30 seconds. And the item's cost efficient!
Don't have any more AD champ's to bind with? No Yasuo to give 100% crit chance? Bind it to your AP mid, give them 20% bonus AP when it procs.
On July 23 2015 14:39 obesechicken13 wrote: Isn't the new Zeke's item kinda broken? Like you can get it on anyone that likes AP,CDR,Armor, and Mana, not just a support. Bind it to whoever's your closest AD champion for the next 60 seconds, and then gain 20% bonus AP and 50% crit for both of you for 6 seconds of like every 30 seconds. And the item's cost efficient!
Don't have any more AD champ's to bind with? No Yasuo to give 100% crit chance? Bind it to your AP mid, give them 20% bonus AP when it procs.
I have been considering getting this item on Skarner. Hue.
About splitpushing, you guys neglect that his passive works on towers now. If someone leaves you alone, aa tower, keg->parley, aa tower is a lot of bonus true damage, and you can keep doing it as long as you have vision and noone's coming (using the kegs to clear the waves too).
On July 23 2015 11:18 Ketara wrote: I feel like I'm seeing people saying that gangplank is bad relative to old gangplank, but they are maybe forgetting that old gangplank was also bad.
He really wasn't changed very much.
I think this new GP is probably better than old GP but I just don't like playing him at all. Granted, I only played one game on him and it was a mirror match up so the lane was wonky but... I dunno, I don't really like the barrels, man. Eh.
I only played him twice, and in ARAMs, but I at least found the Kegs very satisfying when you manage to use them. Of course, I never was a GP main like you so I don't have that much experience with old-GP. The ult less so, it's not nerfed but it feels less powerful, due to the animation and the tinier explosion I guess. I also went a wonky Triforce/IE build while staying on boots1 and that'd get me ganked over and over and I wouldn't be able to do much in sieges in real game.
Once people noticed I'd put kegs in bushes they didn't get near the bushes (well not any more than they'd do in an enemy-controlled bush in ARAM anyway), nor even close to chained-kegs range, and because of the tower it was hard to use. I also felt like using a pre-placed keg into keg->keg->parrrley the first one can be pretty hard (keg->parrrley the setup one->keg probably works since there's a delay in the chained explosion, and they've got less time to explode the 2nd one if you don't wait to place the 3rd, especially at later levels). It's also difficult to use while chasing because people will be running away and you'll need to use 2-3 with the risk of them still being out of the last's explosion radius. I had the most success in back-and-forth fights because they forget about them more easily (if they're pushing, they expect you to have kegs somewhere, especially since the cast range isn't that far, eg. it's suspicious that you stay around 700 range ahead of them instead of just running. If you start going toward people, they disengage, then you run away because you're still fragile with your damage build, that'll feel natural, and they my have forgotten about kegs you placed while going in. Once they get in chain range you just turn around, keg->parrrley the setup one, walk up to them, apply the passive and walk out. That's what I did and it's probably not optimal, kiting and going back-and-forth playing around Parrrley's cd and barely using my passive.
Getting a 600-700 damage keg explosion on 3 people including tanks because you managed to lure them in chain range during their initiation and parrrley-crit the setup keg always feel super satisfying though. I also ended up with highest champion damage in both games despite almost never staying nearby to keep autoing people, and rarely using parrrley directly on them.
On July 23 2015 10:49 Slusher wrote: 0-5 Avalon, the more things change the more they stay the same
oh it's not him lol
Did Avalon finally get benched?
Can we pull out all of the comments about Avalon we made to guitar earlier this year and humour him? Or would that be so rude that it's worthy of a ban?
I mean... Deezer. And guitar deserves whatever happens to him anyway (edit: related to the team).
I really, really hate the new HUD. It is meant to look slick instead of actually making important information readily accessible. Why is stuff like my armor/magic resist/movespeed hidden away, and then I have to sit and figure out what the icons are on top of that if I can't figure out which is which at a glance. There's no easy way to glance at teammates items without popping up a new window since they're bottom right instead of near somewhere you click a lot. And even the kill/death/assist counter is hidden in the bottom right. Would it really have been that hard to leave it at the top?
On July 23 2015 11:18 Ketara wrote: I feel like I'm seeing people saying that gangplank is bad relative to old gangplank, but they are maybe forgetting that old gangplank was also bad.
He really wasn't changed very much.
For me, I think he has mega high zone control, but aside from that he is worse at almost everything. I guess he pushes much faster.
I lost an all in to a level 5 irelia bot at level 5. LOL. I mean, like... she had a huge wave, but still I dont think i've ever lost a 1v1 all in to a bot before.
I think he has really good trading power, but he just feels... weaker. The W is noticeably weaker, and he feels like he does noticeably less damage as well, old passive let him get WAAY more autos in. Damage wise passives are the same, but it feels like you dont stick to people as well. You kind of have to rely on outplays and sick barrel plays to make him work. Like you place a barrel in a brush, then you Q it and place another barrel at the same time to get the damage and the huge slow in.
Which is fine... just different. You have to take care of this Premeditated skillshot and use rathger quick reflexes to stick to people, whereas before you just kind of did naturally. Its weird.
I'm thinking GP is still pretty good, he is awesome at 2-3 man skirmishing, teamfighting, and splitpushing. i think he lanes fine too. I think the biggest thing, he went from one of the easiest to play champs in the game to one of the hardest. I bet his winrate will tank for a while. Going to play him try to master him, is pretty fun. Chances are Riot will even knee jerk hard buff him at some point.
I kind of want to try him as a jungler... his kit feels so good when he is being chased. LOL. I just want to run into enemy territory and fuck around Nunu style but still have a late game (assuming your ADC isn't a god, anyway).
On July 23 2015 17:14 zer0das wrote: I really, really hate the new HUD. It is meant to look slick instead of actually making important information readily accessible. Why is stuff like my armor/magic resist/movespeed hidden away, and then I have to sit and figure out what the icons are on top of that if I can't figure out which is which at a glance. There's no easy way to glance at teammates items without popping up a new window since they're bottom right instead of near somewhere you click a lot. And even the kill/death/assist counter is hidden in the bottom right. Would it really have been that hard to leave it at the top?
yeah, it feels so weird. Hard to find vital information. Riot said they wanted us to play the game not the UI, but I feel like this UI makes me play the UI harder than the old one did. The Minimalism is nice to a degree, but to a point it is just kind of cumbersome. Meh.
Dunno, I played around with the new HUD in a couple of games to get a feel of it. Didn't feel that there was anything seriously wrong with it? Like, sure, I couldn't figure out immediately, which stat icon on the enemy bar meant what, but it took me literally 30 seconds to look them over and memorize.
My only two complaints are that it's more inconvenient to mute people from the score screen and that the CS score is away from the game clock. Even that is such a non-issue that it really does not deserve to be talked about. I don't check my CS relative to time of game when I'm doing something else. I can take the extra half a fucking second to shift my eyes. I am amazed that such issues are being brought as huge deals, when they are minor inconveniences at worst.
Honestly, I don't feel like the HUD needed an update, but it has been and it's not significantly worse than the old one in any way, while improving on some areas. I don't have any significant feelings for it, because I don't spend most of my time in game looking at the sides of the screen. I noticed some new animations on the ability bar and such, but I didn't really pay much attention, because really who has time for that shit, while in game? The mini map is in the same location. The character portrait's position doesn't matter. Inventory position doesn't matter. Party portraits and KDA location does not matter, once you get used to it.
And the HUD isn't even out in ranked. What's so hard in just playing the game and enjoying it, seriously? The HUD has so little to do with what makes this game great.
My view of new GP is that he is very strong but you have to love the barrel mini game so I think he will be a low pick rate champ. The upgraded ultimate is absolutely devastating and hitting an early timing for the two damage increases is a total game changer. The barrels themselves hit like trucks but you pretty much never get to just place them on your enemy so chain reactions have to happen every single time you want to hit a champion.
I guess what it comes down to for me is, do I find the barrel mechanic fun? For me the answer is no even after seeing him decimate team fights with it.
Press the stats button on the hud. Now all your shit is shown just like before.
It's honestly hilarious to hear people complaining immediately about the hud. Like... just learn the icons and where stuff is before immediately judging it. How is this difficult.
I played ranked so didn't even see the new hud yet but they fucked up sound options - menus are much louder now, so is announcer and PING SLIDER DOESN'T WORK. CAN'T MAKE THEM SILENT, CAN'T MUTE THEM, WHAT IS THIS SHIT.
I found the HUD jarring when I first encountered it on the PBE, but that's only because it's different from the current HUD. Ultimately I like it better simply because it obscures less of the actual game.
My only complaint is that it's initially very difficult to identify what all the small icons mean when you try to pull up your stats, but that's a temporary problem.
On July 23 2015 22:03 Caiada wrote: Press the stats button on the hud. Now all your shit is shown just like before.
It's honestly hilarious to hear people complaining immediately about the hud. Like... just learn the icons and where stuff is before immediately judging it. How is this difficult.
no its fucking not, on top of that new color palette is garbage and makes important stuff like minimap harder to see
On July 23 2015 22:03 Caiada wrote: Press the stats button on the hud. Now all your shit is shown just like before.
It's honestly hilarious to hear people complaining immediately about the hud. Like... just learn the icons and where stuff is before immediately judging it. How is this difficult.
no its fucking not, on top of that new color palette is garbage and makes important stuff like minimap harder to see
I find the minimap a lot easier to read. I always make my hud pretty small in the options. So reducing the size of character icons was a big deal to me. Also the new icons for minions make it easier to see which lanes are pushing. Another thing I like are the stats window for enemies. Because my UI was shrunk to the lowest setting, If I clicked on an enemy the stats window would be too small to read. Not anymore, now it's much bigger. They also made the F keys customizable like I explained on the previous page. They basically fixed all my biggest complaints, so I'm really happy with it. Despite being unfamiliar.
I keep glancing to the left to see if ults are up, but I'll get used to it.
On July 23 2015 22:03 Caiada wrote: Press the stats button on the hud. Now all your shit is shown just like before.
It's honestly hilarious to hear people complaining immediately about the hud. Like... just learn the icons and where stuff is before immediately judging it. How is this difficult.
no its fucking not, on top of that new color palette is garbage and makes important stuff like minimap harder to see
I find the minimap a lot easier to read. I always make my hud pretty small in the options. So reducing the size of character icons was a big deal to me. Also the new icons for minions make it easier to see which lanes are pushing. Another thing I like are the stats window for enemies. Because my UI was shrunk to the lowest setting, If I clicked on an enemy the stats window would be too small to read. Not anymore, now it's much bigger. They also made the F keys customizable like I explained on the previous page. They basically fixed all my biggest complaints, so I'm really happy with it. Despite being unfamiliar.
I keep glancing my eyes to the left to see if ults are up, but I'll get used to it.
This is my biggest gripe as well. Rest of it is inconvenient, but kind of unimportant. I need to actually focus on the minimap to get information from it. Which is not only awkward, but makes the whole game feel clunky to me.
Maybe I'm just old., but as a poor LoL player whose best asset is starcraft imported map awareness it will hurt my play a lot.
On July 23 2015 22:03 Caiada wrote: Press the stats button on the hud. Now all your shit is shown just like before.
It's honestly hilarious to hear people complaining immediately about the hud. Like... just learn the icons and where stuff is before immediately judging it. How is this difficult.
no its fucking not, on top of that new color palette is garbage and makes important stuff like minimap harder to see
I find the minimap a lot easier to read. I always make my hud pretty small in the options. So reducing the size of character icons was a big deal to me. Also the new icons for minions make it easier to see which lanes are pushing. Another thing I like are the stats window for enemies. Because my UI was shrunk to the lowest setting, If I clicked on an enemy the stats window would be too small to read. Not anymore, now it's much bigger. They also made the F keys customizable like I explained on the previous page. They basically fixed all my biggest complaints, so I'm really happy with it. Despite being unfamiliar.
I keep glancing my eyes to the left to see if ults are up, but I'll get used to it.
This is my biggest gripe as well. Rest of it is inconvenient, but kind of unimportant. I need to actually focus on the minimap to get information from it. Which is not only awkward, but makes the whole game feel clunky to me.
Maybe I'm just old., but as a poor LoL player whose best asset is starcraft imported map awareness it will hurt my play a lot.
Or you just don't like it because the old one was good enough and this doesn't really bring anything new to the table(except the ult timer which we had in crs voice a long time ago and moving people for the f keys if you use them) except change for no reason and being unable to turn off the animations for some random ass reason.
I like information being separated into different parts of the screen. I'm sure some of it is just my habits of looking in specific places but I feel like it's clearer than all cluttered together and I don't see how changing it benefits anything.
On July 23 2015 22:03 Caiada wrote: Press the stats button on the hud. Now all your shit is shown just like before.
It's honestly hilarious to hear people complaining immediately about the hud. Like... just learn the icons and where stuff is before immediately judging it. How is this difficult.
Font size "slightly" different between previous 'C' window and new 'C' tab. More detailed and smaller stat icons so more visual clutter when really you just want the numbers and some simple icon besides them.
It's "hilarious" to act smug toward people without checking what they say, sure.
Monte, I can get the whole "let's not clutter these corners and hide part of the screen", but things like the tower, team kills, and cs are smaller, or at least not as highlighted as previously, for example, and in their efforts to not cover anything, they crammed the whole HUD to take as little space as possible till there isn't enough space to comfortably put all their info.
I'd like more padding in the tab menu too, because it's a mess of icons and separating players more clearly would make glancing at item builds faster, for example. The fact that they reduced the champ icons so much is also annoying because it actually makes it harder for me to check whether an ally has his ult or not, between the dark hue (contrasts with the previous bright green) and small as heck dot. Same with death timers, before I could just glance, now it's harder to read.
When you click an unit, it also shows you its kda and cs, so the space for its item build (which is much more important to evaluate his strength than these numbers) is reduced. They switched the stats window with the portrait+item window, so the stats, which are as important as the items, are on the leftmost part of the screen, with the portrait sitting there in the middle of the tab. (Same can be said with your own champion, portrait is right of your stats, which are less highlighted and with these more detailed and thus less readable icons I mentioned.)
Level is harder to read, and the exp bar too. Exp bar is still readable but you can't just eyeball it with a glance. The animations when leveling up, leveling a skill up, and when a skill comes off cooldown are very similar, and way too "loud". I sometimes confused a skill being available because of these. I do appreciate the "loss of control" UI though.
I like the new hud. It only took a couple games to get used to it.If there is one complaint that I have is the team icons that hang above the minimap which I feel they are a tad bit too small.
I kinda feel like it's harder to tell things apart, the icons for instance and the upgrade arrows kinda blur into each other, other than that I think it's just habit.
On July 23 2015 18:31 a1 Sovereign wrote: Dunno, I played around with the new HUD in a couple of games to get a feel of it. Didn't feel that there was anything seriously wrong with it? Like, sure, I couldn't figure out immediately, which stat icon on the enemy bar meant what, but it took me literally 30 seconds to look them over and memorize.
My only two complaints are that it's more inconvenient to mute people from the score screen and that the CS score is away from the game clock. Even that is such a non-issue that it really does not deserve to be talked about. I don't check my CS relative to time of game when I'm doing something else. I can take the extra half a fucking second to shift my eyes. I am amazed that such issues are being brought as huge deals, when they are minor inconveniences at worst.
Honestly, I don't feel like the HUD needed an update, but it has been and it's not significantly worse than the old one in any way, while improving on some areas. I don't have any significant feelings for it, because I don't spend most of my time in game looking at the sides of the screen. I noticed some new animations on the ability bar and such, but I didn't really pay much attention, because really who has time for that shit, while in game? The mini map is in the same location. The character portrait's position doesn't matter. Inventory position doesn't matter. Party portraits and KDA location does not matter, once you get used to it.
And the HUD isn't even out in ranked. What's so hard in just playing the game and enjoying it, seriously? The HUD has so little to do with what makes this game great.
size, stat locations & visual clarity are the main problems
I dont even look at the actual HUD besides my gold and items for actives/trinket cd. but for the love of god, make that tab screen bigger and easier to read. I spend more time on the tab screen then out of it. Its way too small and unreadable. Not sure why the death timers are inside the portraits either, can barely see that. Tab used to be the one stop shop to seeing everything important now I cant see shit.
On July 23 2015 22:03 Caiada wrote: Press the stats button on the hud. Now all your shit is shown just like before.
It's honestly hilarious to hear people complaining immediately about the hud. Like... just learn the icons and where stuff is before immediately judging it. How is this difficult.
no its fucking not, on top of that new color palette is garbage and makes important stuff like minimap harder to see
I find the minimap a lot easier to read. I always make my hud pretty small in the options. So reducing the size of character icons was a big deal to me. Also the new icons for minions make it easier to see which lanes are pushing. Another thing I like are the stats window for enemies. Because my UI was shrunk to the lowest setting, If I clicked on an enemy the stats window would be too small to read. Not anymore, now it's much bigger. They also made the F keys customizable like I explained on the previous page. They basically fixed all my biggest complaints, so I'm really happy with it. Despite being unfamiliar.
I keep glancing my eyes to the left to see if ults are up, but I'll get used to it.
This is my biggest gripe as well. Rest of it is inconvenient, but kind of unimportant. I need to actually focus on the minimap to get information from it. Which is not only awkward, but makes the whole game feel clunky to me.
Maybe I'm just old., but as a poor LoL player whose best asset is starcraft imported map awareness it will hurt my play a lot.
Or you just don't like it because the old one was good enough and this doesn't really bring anything new to the table(except the ult timer which we had in crs voice a long time ago and moving people for the f keys if you use them) except change for no reason and being unable to turn off the animations for some random ass reason.
Definitely feel like they fixed something that wasn't broke and they put a lot of emphasis on stylized animations and moved important information around. Not a smooth transition at the very least.
Didn't he work on WoW? The game that flourished because it basically lets players install whatever 3rd party addons they want so they can turn the screen into an explosion of stats and toolbars?
That's probably the most cherry-picked quote you could have possibly chosen. It was something he was specifically saying was wrong.
But for the most part, he's right. WoW's UI took an *enormous* amount of resources. Eventually, player demands completely consumed it, and they absolutely had to design around it, often for the worse. LoL would never approach that much customizability, and there's probably some nice inbetween, but for the most part, offering better options is infinitely more important than more options.
On July 24 2015 03:27 cLutZ wrote: Didn't he work on WoW? The game that flourished because it basically lets players install whatever 3rd party addons they want so they can turn the screen into an explosion of stats and toolbars?
WoW's a special case. They made the game's UI moddable basically from the start. This was mostly great because their base UI was dogshit for most of the game's lifespan, but, especially in the more competitive parts of the game, the modability warped things heavily. Raids absolutely depended on timers and meters, which classes were balanced around, they had to frequently squash special mod cases (buttons to autoheal, remove status effects, putting big ol indicators on the floor.) Addons would give you 6+ toolbars, which they basically had to use, so you had to make them smaller, had to be able to move everything around, had to have complex rotations, had to squash addons that automatically did your rotation for you. That sort of thing feeds into itself easily.
LoL couldn't ever get to that point. UI is really not that important in a game this mechanical.
On July 24 2015 03:29 Caiada wrote: That's probably the most cherry-picked quote you could have possibly chosen. It was something he was specifically saying was wrong.
But for the most part, he's right. WoW's UI took an *enormous* amount of resources. Eventually, player demands completely consumed it, and they absolutely had to design around, usually for the worse. LoL would never approach that much customizability, and there's probably some nice inbetween, but for the most part, offering better options is infinitely more important than more options.
He said it in a non sarcastic tone so don't see why can't I pick that quote.
I agree WoW was a game which allowed too much(at first but they fixed it) customization but simply letting people move and resize everything is the very least that should be allowed.
"We developers really don't know what a good experience is, so we're just going to give you a big tool set and hope you can find something fun."
The fact that he thinks this is proof how fucking stupid they are.
He doesn't think that. He thinks giving us customisation would be saying that.
As for HUD customisation... there's size. And I don't think it'd take that much resource to make these parts moving like the chat box or surrender vote, or shop, or tab, etc. and let players move it around then save it.
On July 24 2015 03:29 Caiada wrote: That's probably the most cherry-picked quote you could have possibly chosen. It was something he was specifically saying was wrong.
But for the most part, he's right. WoW's UI took an *enormous* amount of resources. Eventually, player demands completely consumed it, and they absolutely had to design around, usually for the worse. LoL would never approach that much customizability, and there's probably some nice inbetween, but for the most part, offering better options is infinitely more important than more options.
He said it in a non sarcastic tone so don't see why can't I pick that quote.
I agree WoW was a game which allowed too much(at first but they fixed it) customization but simply letting people move and resize everything is the very least that should be allowed.
He literally put it in quotes and called it weasely game design. Not exactly a compliment.
"We developers really don't know what a good experience is, so we're just going to give you a big tool set and hope you can find something fun."
The fact that he thinks this is proof how fucking stupid they are.
He doesn't think that. He thinks giving us customisation would be saying that.
As for HUD customisation... there's size. And I don't think it'd take that much resource to make these parts moving like the chat box or surrender vote, or shop, or tab, etc. and let players move it around then save it.
Hmmm my bad then thought it was obvious since they don't give us any customization options.Shouldve added double ""
If I wasn't clear the fact that they think letting players do what they want means that confuses me.It is not possible to make a hud that everyone likes and is comfortable with.
Every time riot mention competetive integrity I just laugh and think about crit.
He was only responding to the 'fully customizable' thing. That entails a whole lot more customizability than people think it does. It's easily possible for too much customization to alter competitive play.
Doesn't preclude including much smaller things like more comprehensive resize or repositioning options later.
A big problem with the new HUD is the 'C' tab gets smaller with everything else. Also, I disagree that WOW's interface was too customizable, the only problem is there was so much information fed by logs to users that the information stream sometimes enabled cheating.
LOL already has a bot problem, so thats irrelevant.
On July 24 2015 03:49 Caiada wrote: It's not about cheating. Addons fundamentally altered the way they had to design at the highest levels of play.
Only slightly compared to Blizzard's own decisions. First by reducing raid size and giving both factions Shamans/Paladins; and then class homogenization, heroic/normal dichotomy, and reducing the effects of gear checks is what makes it so much harder to Blizzard to challenge top tier (and even mid-high tier) raiders now. All the OP addons were available during Naxx, AQ 40, and Vashj/Kael and those are the most "difficult" encounters they ever released.
On July 24 2015 03:54 Frolossus wrote: we don't need addons, we just need to drag and drop the windows in appropriate places.
I don't trust LoL's code with addons, otherwise I would like them.
I am just wondering where I can obtain supervision like their developers if they dont think customizing size is important. i have perfect 20/20 vision and I cant see shit. I feel bad for people with actual problems.
On July 24 2015 03:49 Caiada wrote: It's not about cheating. Addons fundamentally altered the way they had to design at the highest levels of play.
Only slightly compared to Blizzard's own decisions. First by reducing raid size and giving both factions Shamans/Paladins; and then class homogenization, heroic/normal dichotomy, and reducing the effects of gear checks is what makes it so much harder to Blizzard to challenge top tier (and even mid-high tier) raiders now. All the OP addons were available during Naxx, AQ 40, and Vashj/Kael and those are the most "difficult" encounters they ever released.
On July 24 2015 03:54 Frolossus wrote: we don't need addons, we just need to drag and drop the windows in appropriate places.
I don't trust LoL's code with addons, otherwise I would like them.
Not balance or difficulty, I'm talking about literally the core of how they designed encounters and PvP. Shit like what mechanics they included, the complexity of those mechanics, and timing. Quantity and diversity. Now, the shift to increasingly complicated mechanics was also spurred heavily by people just being much much better at the game, but the UI *definitely* added to it. It's not bad or good, but it happened and made addons mostly mandatory.
Difficulty in that game was mostly numbers and margin for error. Not what I'm on about at all.
On July 24 2015 04:22 VayneAuthority wrote: I am just wondering where I can obtain supervision like their developers if they dont think customizing size is important. i have perfect 20/20 vision and I cant see shit. I feel bad for people with actual problems.
Amen.... my right eye has significantly higher power than my left eye and stacking all that HUD features on the bottom right just kills league for me
Teemo Move Quick (W) [] Noxious Trap (R) [ now says "toss a trap" instead of "place a trap". has new text reading "If a thrown trap lands on another trap, it will bounce up to X Teemos further before planting.". Will have to look at this in-game... ]
On July 24 2015 04:13 cLutZ wrote:All the OP addons were available during Naxx, AQ 40, and Vashj/Kael and those are the most "difficult" encounters they ever released.
If you've got Trifroce/Shiv, a barrel instantly clears the wave. This is a lot less setup for getting a full wave of Q gold, and makes getting Q gold much easier pre-Shiv. You also get a small but significant gold lead after Sheen, and especially after Triforce. This makes Hydra less valuable, as it's probably overkill on the waveclear. I'd go one of Shiv/Hydra, leaning towards Shiv because of the movespeed and additional ranged burst.
The passive's AD scaling is *really* strong, especially with barrel resets in a duel and while splitpushing. Two procs and two triforce procs is a lot of tower pushing ability. Even a small opportunity gets you most of a Tier 2.
Barrels are shit pre-7. Your laning phase until then is super meh, and the barrel tickdowns are really his most significant level powerspikes. He scales really well with levels in general.
For item builds, he seems pretty versatile. Tforce is core. For damage, so is Shiv, most likely. I don't think he's got enough guaranteed utility or base damage to warrant going the Irelia build or full tank, but something Gnar-style would probably work. Tforce->Mallet and/or Black Cleaver->Maw and/or Thornmail. I think Black Cleaver's great on him. CDR, health, and AD is a dream setup for GP now. I probably underrated the pen on LW before, but think Black Cleaver outclasses it on him (and most melees) anyway. If you'll be going any more than two damage items, I think IE is basically mandatory. The in-fight burst from a crit barrel is his number one teamfight use if you're heavy on damage, and it can quickly turn a fight with the slow. Something like Tforce->Shiv->IE/BT->Defensive item. Maybe skip BT for a second defensive item or Cleaver in burst scenarios.
He's a surprisingly safe pick. Q/E waveclear is decent under tower, and if you can push out, great. I'd never pick him into an assassin though. Zed/Leb/Talon/Yasuo will shit on him. Tanks/other bruisers are probably the ideal. Ranged matchups are iffy.
I think a big reason they're not allowing more customization is due to a shared experience element partially tied to streaming.
I have a question, the old score screen used to light up the portraits of enemy players that were out of the FOW. The new one doesn't do that? Or is it just really hard to see? I was pushing mid and I hit tab, but I couldn't tell if the 3-4 man gank bot still had all 3-4 pushing bot together.
Like I said, people don't get what 'full customization' for a HUD entails. It's hard to believe they won't eventually allow options for moving more shit around and resizing it, but that's not full customization for a guy who went through addon design hell.
On July 24 2015 09:17 Caiada wrote: Like I said, people don't get what 'full customization' for a HUD entails. It's hard to believe they won't eventually allow options for moving more shit around and resizing it, but that's not full customization for a guy who went through addon design hell.
given that 1. it's riot 2. it hasn't already happened i think it's quite likely it won't happen unless adequate complaining occurs
I think it's pretty disingenuous to answer from the perspective of last hit indicators or zoom hacks when he knows what people are asking for is the ability to move panels around.
On July 24 2015 09:23 kongoline wrote: smite has it and there is no problem
On July 24 2015 04:13 cLutZ wrote:All the OP addons were available during Naxx, AQ 40, and Vashj/Kael and those are the most "difficult" encounters they ever released.
Yogg 0 lights gets my vote.
Never did it "appropriately" geared, so can't comment on how much perfection it actually took, but I know top raids were stuck on Kael/Vashj much longer.
Anyways, that's not the point, the point is that addons don't do what Caiada says any more than having nice shoes makes Messi the best soccer player.
On July 24 2015 04:13 cLutZ wrote:All the OP addons were available during Naxx, AQ 40, and Vashj/Kael and those are the most "difficult" encounters they ever released.
Yogg 0 lights gets my vote.
Never did it "appropriately" geared, so can't comment on how much perfection it actually took, but I know top raids were stuck on Kael/Vashj much longer.
Anyways, that's not the point, the point is that addons don't do what Caiada says any more than having nice shoes makes Messi the best soccer player.
I really have no idea how you still don't get that my comment had nothing to do with difficulty or ability. If you don't get that you have to design around the information and presentation available to players, there's nothing else to say.
So I'm hearing a lot of rumors about the new GP's barrels. A sandbox mode would be really nice right now...
One that they stack with muramana's on hit damage. Which indicates to me it might stack with all physical on hit damage. And one that it stacks with armor penetration additively. So the 60% adds with the 38.89% from LW & masteries for ~99% armor pen.
On July 24 2015 14:30 obesechicken13 wrote: So I'm hearing a lot of rumors about the new GP's barrels. A sandbox mode would be really nice right now...
One that they stack with muramana's on hit damage. Which indicates to me it might stack with all physical on hit damage. And one that it stacks with armor penetration additively. So the 60% adds with the 38.89% from LW & masteries for ~99% armor pen.
Rylais got a lot better on Karthus. Now Q and R both apply the full 40% slow, which gives you a passable Kog'Maw impression while chasing midgame, as well as a great cleanup tool after dying in the enemy team lategame.
Saw Teemo upgrades, as for patch 5.15 I would like to officially resign as a top laner and I am not moving to mid either, this little bitch looks viable there as well xD
On July 24 2015 17:13 M2 wrote: Saw Teemo upgrades, as for patch 5.15 I would like to officially resign as a top laner and I am not moving to mid either, this little bitch looks viable there as well xD
I would be incredibly surprised if he saw play mid lane. At level 6 the changes are likely a nerf. +70 range and the 2 Teemo weird bounce thing in exchange for 5 minutes reduced duration and (even worse) an increased arming time. The bush invisibility thing may create some troll plays top lane but very rarely.
The big buff, if there is one, is super late game when you can pump out several 900 range shrooms in team fights. At that point you are sacrificing Teemo's entire "trap the map" gameplay pattern for some mage like fighting options.
tl/dr: Teemo is still going to be garbage for the first 10 levels (possibly worse) and his scaling is still terrible if you are not allowed to auto non-stop. The people who will play the rework are the same people who played the old Teemo. Turn Move Quick's active into a dash and I will be on board.
To tell you the truth I just scim/scanned through the changes and did not see the decreased duration and rearming times. I even think that this is harsh for Teemo, he is annoying but he is not in a good spot actually, he can use some straight buffs imo
Tried the new HUD and it felt pretty awful, I even lost my map awareness, which as a former intensive broodwar player was on a pretty high level even when I was bronze. So many stacked new things that my brain could not process the minimap movements until people were actually in my screen ) was fun. However, I really liked the fact that you can see enemies death timers without pressing tab and you can also order enemies and allies champs in a desirable order. I order them like in LCS streams and its so easy to compare same laners who is behind who is ahead, who needs help etc.
On July 24 2015 09:23 Ansibled wrote: I think it's pretty disingenuous to answer from the perspective of last hit indicators or zoom hacks when he knows what people are asking for is the ability to move panels around.
On July 24 2015 09:23 kongoline wrote: smite has it and there is no problem
Incidentally FF14 also lets you move every hud element wherever you want, and change the size to 5 preset sizes. You can add or even entirely remove some huds if you don't want them to be on the screen. It's really really nice.
I think i'd be fine with the character info tab or whatever the thing is you pull up with C to have actual words instead of symbols and the tab screen having more information back on it.
The stun's a pretty big deal, so were the AP item changes, and now her spiders do magic damage.
I think she's probably much better in soloq than competitive now, for the first time in as long as I can remember. The Sorc Boots/Runeglaive/Liandry's/Rylai's combo and the stun duration make her a ridiculous pick jungler with some actual midgame power, but it'll be too squishy in competitive and Cinderhulk is underwhelming on her compared to 4 or 5 other top picks.
On July 24 2015 09:23 Ansibled wrote: I think it's pretty disingenuous to answer from the perspective of last hit indicators or zoom hacks when he knows what people are asking for is the ability to move panels around.
On July 24 2015 09:23 kongoline wrote: smite has it and there is no problem
Incidentally FF14 also lets you move every hud element wherever you want, and change the size to 5 preset sizes. You can add or even entirely remove some huds if you don't want them to be on the screen. It's really really nice.
I think i'd be fine with the character info tab or whatever the thing is you pull up with C to have actual words instead of symbols and the tab screen having more information back on it.
I think most MMOs have HUGE amount of freedom on HUD customization because these games have a lot of buttons - as such, the ability to customize is almost required.
Also, it feels like one of those "industry standard" when it comes to MMO. LoL, which came from DotA (which did not have any kinds of customization whatsoever), historically did not have this kind of feature.
i dont even care about customization just want a hud which makes sense and isnt burden, new hud is annoying and definitely a downgrade from old one, i cba to play league because of how bad it is
On July 25 2015 01:48 Sufficiency wrote: Also, it feels like one of those "industry standard" when it comes to MMO. LoL, which came from DotA (which did not have any kinds of customization whatsoever), historically did not have this kind of feature.
This both is and isn't true.
On the one hand, it's true that the War3 engine does not support much UI customization natively. On the other hand, as most of pub DotA play moved out to external ladders like Garena, ICCup, etc., most of which provided their own external clients that run alongside the game. UI customization through external overlays (not unlike the timer overlays which became so controversial in League) or other plugins became reasonable common in the later part of War3 DotA's lifespan.
On July 25 2015 01:48 Sufficiency wrote: Also, it feels like one of those "industry standard" when it comes to MMO. LoL, which came from DotA (which did not have any kinds of customization whatsoever), historically did not have this kind of feature.
This both is and isn't true.
On the one hand, it's true that the War3 engine does not support much UI customization natively. On the other hand, as most of pub DotA play moved out to external ladders like Garena, ICCup, etc., most of which provided their own external clients that run alongside the game. UI customization through external overlays (not unlike the timer overlays which became so controversial in League) or other plugins became reasonable common in the later part of War3 DotA's lifespan.
In DotA you can't even customize ability hotkeys unless you edit a file by hand or use an external program.
The fact of the matter is, when it comes to HUD customization, RTS games (and dota, by extension) lagged really behind MMO games. Smite looks impressive in this regard.
On July 25 2015 01:11 krndandaman wrote: apparently elise is good again? her win rate has jumped 10% to 54% and is #2 out of junglers
Her stun got buffed to a longer duration at lv1 than before she got nerfed.
Yea, the return to a 1 pt wonder stun should do loads for her. I am also kind of surprised she hasn't seen use as a support recently
Almost like she has only 1 ability that works for a support
Like Trundle and Shen?
She has high damage good lane presence, good pick potential and is one of the safest warders in the game due to spider form. Her weakness in the jungle is that she falls off compared to champions which can utilize farm better. But that isn't a problem in the support role.
Additionally her primary advantage in the jungle is a strong early game ganking, which is highlighted by keeping her in a duo lane.
Oh, right. Didn't notice because almost noone had any since it was in ARAM. Says about how crammed everything is, though, any number doesn't stand up by itself.
On July 25 2015 02:19 Sufficiency wrote: In DotA you can't even customize ability hotkeys unless you edit a file by hand or use an external program.
Right, but since Blizzard didn't manage any aspect of the game, the community developed the UI functionality to meet their own needs externally.
The LoL community is more than capable of doing this as well, but Riot's made their stance toward overlays/external modification of the UI clear in the past. Which is why the onus falls on themselves to provide the UI customization options.
On July 25 2015 01:11 krndandaman wrote: apparently elise is good again? her win rate has jumped 10% to 54% and is #2 out of junglers
Her stun got buffed to a longer duration at lv1 than before she got nerfed.
Yea, the return to a 1 pt wonder stun should do loads for her. I am also kind of surprised she hasn't seen use as a support recently
Almost like she has only 1 ability that works for a support
Like Trundle and Shen?
She has high damage good lane presence, good pick potential and is one of the safest warders in the game due to spider form. Her weakness in the jungle is that she falls off compared to champions which can utilize farm better. But that isn't a problem in the support role.
Additionally her primary advantage in the jungle is a strong early game ganking, which is highlighted by keeping her in a duo lane.
They both have ultimates that are really good?Other than her e all she offers is damage which isn't something that you want lol.She is more similar to old* veigar than any of those 2.And his 1 ability was so much stronger.
There are a lot of better alternatives when you want to do damage as a support and better if you want to roam and gank.
I think Riot does stupid things(that UI, new champions, new champion remakes) so that when they eventually do one thing right, people will be delighted and surprised because Riot ended up not screwing something up.
Why does Riot claim to listen to their customers when they actually don't?
Do you realize you're putting more effort in articulating your answers on ask.fm than developing the game?
If you were given the option to revert all the changes you've made and keep your job over keep all the changes (e.g. HUD, balances, etc.) and lose your job, which would you pick?
"It's Reddit. I'm used to it." that's why riot doesn't satisfy players. "Oh it's reddit", "Oh it's the minority", Reason > Stereotyping.
I'd put something snarky here, but it's self-explanatory. I'm continually amazed at how insanely patient Ghostcrawler is.
That was a shitty answer though, honestly. What he's getting at is mostly correct from a design perspective but he hasn't explained it well at all.
This just has to be some sort of elaborate troll. People don't want to be surprised by their UI, they want it to be functional. Thats why people kept Windows XP for so long, and everyone hates Windows 8.
It's just Ghostcrawler. None of this should be surprising to anyone whose familar with his reputation from WoW. Not necessarily because he is or isn't responsible for particular changes, but because he's always been absurdly defensive in justifying changes he and his team has made, to the point of being irrational and nonsensical when responding to criticism.
I wouldn't read any more into those answers than Ghostcrawler being Ghostcrawler.
On July 25 2015 01:23 Caiada wrote: The stun's a pretty big deal, so were the AP item changes, and now her spiders do magic damage.
I think she's probably much better in soloq than competitive now, for the first time in as long as I can remember. The Sorc Boots/Runeglaive/Liandry's/Rylai's combo and the stun duration make her a ridiculous pick jungler with some actual midgame power, but it'll be too squishy in competitive and Cinderhulk is underwhelming on her compared to 4 or 5 other top picks.
What a lot of people fail to remember is how BIG this stun buff is. Back when she was meta the 1.5s stun was deemed too strong, so they changed it to be 1=>2s to cause more tension between her skills and lower her damage early. It took 3 points to get that back. Now not only is that tension gone, but it's a buff compared to the OLD stun, being .1-.5s longer than when she was strong.
That's all true, but she's still nerfed in a ton of other ways in comparison to old Elise. Much less objective control, smaller Rappel range, smaller Cocoon hitbox, base damage nerfs.
holy fuck, I didnt have time to keep up to date with news and play the game because of my summer internship but the new hud and shop are fucking ugly... I guess there's no way to get the old style back?
Old Elise top made me really hate the game for a while. Pretty sure Spectre's cowl was introduced to let people survive that harass. And when you jumped on her to attempt a trade she just stunned you and QWQ'd you.
Specter's Cowl was a few patches after Elise top died. Think that was when Kennen and such were really big. Top Lane used to be full of harassing assholes until that MR item rework and Jayce nerfs.
On July 25 2015 07:58 Amui wrote: Is it just me or does ARAM have a ludicrous number of AFK's.
Played 6 so far for the event and every single one has had at least one.
Clearly they all quit due to new HUD. hue
All I'm wishing for is the ability to turn off animations. I don't need a shiny hud, I just need function.
Also the character stat menu is stupid if you're one of the people who shrink the hud as much as possible(I would shrink it more if possible tbh) because it's nigh unreadable.
I just started playing again after about a 2 month hiatus and I really like the UI changes. Maybe it's partially because it's not as ingrained into me due to the break. But they've fixed or improved upon a lot of things. The one thing I found most disconcerting was the item slot move. The only way I can describe it is in some sort of weird hand-eye coordination mind fuck. For the first few games, it felt like I was crossing my hands over each other to get to my item slot. As though the slots were the hotkeys and moved to the other side of the keyboard. It's been about 10-12 games and I'm used to it now though.
Quick question, what is it about the minimap that frustrates people? You're unable to distinguish the blue minions from the blue background contrast? I really-really don't understand that. In all ways it's superior to the previous version to me. It's easier to distinguish which lanes are pushing due to the minion graphics and the portraits are smaller so they don't overlap and block out view.
The reason why people hate the UI is that the old UI was fine. As far as I can tell, the new UI didn't really solve the problems with the old UI; it merely changed the UI and switched some of the panels.
It's honestly really nice to be able to look down at the minimap and see every bit of relevant info at a glance when I know what I'm looking for. When people get used to it, Riot cleans up some little things (the mana thing is poorly communicated; so is the CD indicator; the aforementioned minimap contrast) and they put in some options to switch positions/sizes, I doubt all that many will care.
Of course, they have to actually *do* those things, which is a bigger if than it ought to be.
things that the new hud doesn't let me do: quickly read my stats, easily view cs/min, read peoples names, view game score, view full character stat sheet, view latency
Something that's really been grinding my gears is that ever since the spectator client came out, people have been clamoring to see the cds of their allies' summoners in the same manner. It took till now for that info to be available and it's on the damn scoreboard.
The stat sheet I've never once seen anyone streaming ranked use since 5.14. CS/min, a very important stat (not really aside from benchmark purposes). Not like looking at every corner of the screen for info wasn't the whole basis of the old hud anyway. People's names? Really? Game score's right above the minimap. Learn the very obvious stat icons/positions, how hard is that? At least you can now see the detailed shit without obscuring a third of your screen.
People are frustrated and are desperate for a reason to hate it. Like the vast majority of far-reaching changes Riot makes. The vision system had the same thing. A lot of people hated SR's visual update, anybody remember that? Sion's rework. Support items.
Jungler AFK and our mid was just spamming pings everywhere and 0-3-0 pretty early, then me and botlane just carried 3v5 and they surrendered at 26min.
I was like "oh damn can't believe I'm going to lose this game where everyone got the roles they wanted in champion select" but silver ranked is weird.
And almost on topic, Trundle feels kind of good. I mean while I was slightly ahead in lane, the enemy midlaner Jarvan was 3-0 and then ganked me top and I just ulted him and 1v2'd for a double kill and didn't even drop under half health. He died in like 3 hits after ult.
MY biggest gripe is that they put all the information on top of the minimap. It's too much information in 1 place, and my eyes have to stay there not looking at the screen to parse everything i want to know.
On July 25 2015 11:07 Caiada wrote: The stat sheet I've never once seen anyone streaming ranked use since 5.14. CS/min, a very important stat (not really aside from benchmark purposes). Not like looking at every corner of the screen for info wasn't the whole basis of the old hud anyway. People's names? Really? Game score's right above the minimap. Learn the very obvious stat icons/positions, how hard is that? At least you can now see the detailed shit without obscuring a third of your screen.
People are frustrated and are desperate for a reason to hate it. Like the vast majority of far-reaching changes Riot makes. The vision system had the same thing. A lot of people hated SR's visual update, anybody remember that? Sion's rework. Support items.
I don't remember much complaining about the new support items being added (although here we wanted more Haunting-guise style items as well/instead). However, what I think separates this HUD change from the SR visual update and your other examples is that it really doesn't appear to have much/any superior functionality. If that is the case, just leave it the same. Its kind of like moving to your next door neighbor's house which is exactly the same, except the master bedroom is on the other side. Its a lot of hassle for no gain.
I really don't get why these people build shit in ARAM. Like I'm far from a good player, but I love to build RoA->Aegis->FrozenHeart -> Spirit Visage. Maybe replace Visage with Zekes now and grab Banshee's Veil. Granted this only really works on potential AP tanks (Gragas, Sejuani, Sion, etc). But I've found that quite often you can become unkillable enough that you can 1v3 for long enough while dealing enough damage that your team can usually mop up the rest. If I need boots I'll grab them somewhere along the way to help dodge skillshots. But usually the map is so short I tend to forgo them.
But I've seen some really dumb builds as of late. For example, on Gragas building full AP while not building RoA, Abyssal, Rylai's or Zhonya's. Seeing Caitlyn build Tear into RoA. Seeing AP Shaco not build Luden's, Void Staff or Zhonya's. Seeing Leona build full AP with no health, MR or any defensive item. Going up against Sion, Gragas and Mundo (all of which built Tank) seeing AP casters get to 5 items without buying Void Staff. Thankfully, there was an Annie on that team who built similar to me. She grabbed Abyssal second while I grabbed Liandry's and we both built Void Staff third. We would've rolled that game fast if Jax had built tank after Trinity force and BoRK.
I'm really not looking forward to completing Stage 3 and having to deal with the insane ARAM folk.
On July 25 2015 11:07 Caiada wrote: The stat sheet I've never once seen anyone streaming ranked use since 5.14. CS/min, a very important stat (not really aside from benchmark purposes). Not like looking at every corner of the screen for info wasn't the whole basis of the old hud anyway. People's names? Really? Game score's right above the minimap. Learn the very obvious stat icons/positions, how hard is that? At least you can now see the detailed shit without obscuring a third of your screen.
People are frustrated and are desperate for a reason to hate it. Like the vast majority of far-reaching changes Riot makes. The vision system had the same thing. A lot of people hated SR's visual update, anybody remember that? Sion's rework. Support items.
I don't remember much complaining about the new support items being added (although here we wanted more Haunting-guise style items as well/instead). However, what I think separates this HUD change from the SR visual update and your other examples is that it really doesn't appear to have much/any superior functionality. If that is the case, just leave it the same. Its kind of like moving to your next door neighbor's house which is exactly the same, except the master bedroom is on the other side. Its a lot of hassle for no gain.
I think there are very easily arguable benefits for the redesign. They did change a bit overmuch (the ability icons, really, why did they not test clarity on that more, the contrast change on the minimap reeks of designing to a palette instead of functionality, and they really could have kept the XP bar straight and underneath the portrait), but like I've said it's genuinely a lot more pleasant to look at the new stats and especially stats/portraits being over the map once I got past old habits. There's also significantly more viewing area on every corner and with the scoreboard up. I think the scoreboard is the most obviously improved, least-contentious thing, honestly, ('squashed info' complaints aside; it was pretty damn clear to me) but it's mostly independent of what they actually did with the HUD.
On July 25 2015 12:03 geript wrote: I really don't get why these people build shit in ARAM.
My favorite is people who play Sej and rush Righteous Glory and some other health item (or any other tank who does that). It's like you're Sejuani in a mode where you can dash nearly two screens, do you really need to build righteous glory on top of that and be as easy to cut through as butter? If you have problems engaging you're either against the poke/disengage comp of doom and are probably going to lose anyways, or you're just awful.
People way underestimate resists in ARAM vs the need for your team to be able to hard engage/health. It's like fights take place all the frigging time, you're not going to have problems engaging unless comps are really imbalanced. Doesn't matter if you can engage and you all die in 1.5 seconds. I'd rather everyone be tanky and slowly die because at least turrets aren't getting wrecked as quickly.
My other pet peeve is people who build Hydra on Yi in ARAM. You already have nearly free health regen from meditate which gives you way more sustain than most champions, people almost never stack up close enough that you'll benefit from the passive, and you're as close as you can get to a guaranteed income, the active gives you slightly more guaranteed burst but that's probably not gonna help you get a reset 95% of the time? Black Cleaver was almost as bad before they changed it.
Also yeah, player quality because of the new map assets is pretty flipping low right now.
They've got 5 AP champs, but none of us are 'tank' champs. So clearly none of us will get Aegis, because logic. Gotta go max damage Nunu and AP Caitlyn.
I've accepted that nobody gives a shit about ARAM except me >.>
On July 25 2015 13:34 Caiada wrote: They've got 5 AP champs, but none of us are 'tank' champs. So clearly none of us will get Aegis, because logic. Gotta go max damage Nunu and AP Caitlyn.
I've accepted that nobody gives a shit about ARAM except me >.>
I find this new UI maddening. Yes, all the information is there, but things are so crowded, small, and lacking in contrast that it's so difficult to parse what I'm actually looking at without deliberately staring at it to finally register, rather than an eye glance and back. I get a reduced hud for games like Skyrim, but there's something to be said for having unique information in clearly visible spots. It feels like it was designed for a 800x600 screen.
As a sidenote, I will be glad when this Windows 8, flat UI colour phase/ craze ends Such an ugly aesthetic.
On July 25 2015 16:53 Falling wrote: I find this new UI maddening. Yes, all the information is there, but things are so crowded, small, and lacking in contrast that it's so difficult to parse what I'm actually looking at without deliberately staring at it to finally register, rather than an eye glance and back. I get a reduced hud for games like Skyrim, but there's something to be said for having unique information in clearly visible spots. It feels like it was designed for a 800x600 screen.
As a sidenote, I will be glad when this Windows 8, flat UI colour phase/ craze ends Such an ugly aesthetic.
I mean, you can make it bigger but that doesn't help since then it takes up like 40% of your screen
Oh and if you click on it, it no longer registers through.
The ARAM minion kills requirements are steep for the event. :< I'll go into normals for the 500 minions for Graves, but 200 ARAM minions for TF may take.... awhile!
I'm a bit miffed by how they retconned the fallout between them, too. It went from a con agreement where each knew if the other found better he'd ditch him, with TF straight-up selling Graves to a con victim for his dream instead; to TF and Graves being best buds working with a group, Graves being too stubborn to notice they'd been outed, and believing TF sold him because he's too stubborn to admit he was wrong.
So we had two bad guys, with one doing an "evil" dead (selling the other) for selfish reasons (his dream of magic), and now we've got two bad guys, an idiot and the other who's on the lesser scale of bad. I understand that to go forward they need Graves' feud to not be the final point (and thus either to invalidate the feud, or find a way for Graves to drop it), but I still liked the previous better in terms of what it meant for the characters. :/
Honestly, I'm just glad they're doing some writing and that they're finally doing some sort of interesting lore event that's not just stories like Shurima. I started playing around the time of the Freljord event, which was pretty neat, so it's cool to see something like that but more involved. I hope they keep the lore effort up.
change for change sake isn't inherently good, in this case it makes the characters weaker. As Alaric alluded to, would you rather play the old west gunslinger hell bent on revenge? or would you rather play the dumb and stubborn gunslinger who got sold out by his crew, sounds like an easy choice to me.
On July 25 2015 23:34 Alaric wrote: The ARAM minion kills requirements are steep for the event. :< I'll go into normals for the 500 minions for Graves, but 200 ARAM minions for TF may take.... awhile!
On July 26 2015 06:24 Gahlo wrote: I've been reading some people on reddit discussing, on assassiny AP junglers, going Guise/Sorcs before getting Runeglaive. Thoughts?
at least for Fizz, i think the Runeglaive nerfs ruined any assassin ap builds. no longer converting his Q to magic damage seems to take away a lot of the oomph that completing Runeglaive used to provide.
You guys are making me want to play a game just to see the new HUD.
But I'm fairly convinced from reading the thread and looking at pictures that I'll like it more than the old HUD and just think you're all crazy, so I'm not sure I'm going to bother.
On July 26 2015 08:19 Ketara wrote: You guys are making me want to play a game just to see the new HUD.
But I'm fairly convinced from reading the thread and looking at pictures that I'll like it more than the old HUD and just think you're all crazy, so I'm not sure I'm going to bother.
yea that beta HUD is actually legit better. im trying to give the new one a chance with aram games but I cant even tell what my death timer, gold, opponents items are in a timely manner in a casual game, it just isnt gonna work for ranked. Takes way too long to look in those obscure places for such important info.
I think people are playing LoL on their phones or in 4:3 monitors from the 90s and are sad they can no longer see numbers when they don't take up most of the viewing area.
One thing I'm curious about is the decision to put score/ping/cs together with game-relevant components.
I always thought the decision to separate them in the top right was an intentional design decision. Since CS/score are already redundantly displayed on the scoreboard, doesn't it make more sense to segregate them from the other numbers on the screen which are more directly useful?
TBH I could see an argument for simply not displaying CS and score a second time on the UI, because it's not like you actually need to know your score any more often than you actually check your scoreboard for other reasons. Removing them entirely would reduce visual clutter. Though I guess that would be annoying for players who are relatively new and not yet in the habit of checking their scoreboard incessantly--but even then, it still probably makes sense to segregate them on the UI.
On July 26 2015 11:09 Caiada wrote: I think people are playing LoL on their phones or in 4:3 monitors from the 90s and are sad they can no longer see numbers when they don't take up most of the viewing area.
yea I play on a small monitor so what? doesnt mean riot can just say fuck you to a group of players and expect us to not complain. It's like not adding a wheelchair ramp to your restaurant because you dont employ any handicapped people. "oh sorry didnt see that arising because none of us have that problem"
On July 26 2015 11:09 Caiada wrote: I think people are playing LoL on their phones or in 4:3 monitors from the 90s and are sad they can no longer see numbers when they don't take up most of the viewing area.
yea I play on a small monitor so what? doesnt mean riot can just say fuck you to a group of players and expect us to not complain. It's like not adding a wheelchair ramp to your restaurant because you dont employ any handicapped people. "oh sorry didnt see that arising because none of us have that problem"
Sorry dude, but a game company has to design their game around:
1. It can be played by the majority of "gaming computers"
and
2. It doesn't look like shit so people on the higher end of that majority will be willing to play/watch it
By running a 4:3 monitor, you're running a serious bottleneck on what companies expect the generic player to have.
I guess it depends on what monitor you're using and how old it is. I eventually had to get an HDTV because my old CRT literally wouldn't let me read text in pretty much any game. (Think I played the first half of Mass Effect 2 staring at a wall of squigly lines.). I'd prob need to know more about your moniter and your set up.
can't riot keep nice things? Like new game moda and this map? I mean the new game mode is pretty complex and fun in it's own and it would be sad to remove it
I'm not sure how putting relevant info next to the minimap is a problem.
Since most of the time you're looking at the minimap, and things like death and ult timers are directly related to map awareness and the reason why you look at the minimap, it makes sense that you only have to look in one place.
I don't understand why this hud is upsetting people.
On July 26 2015 13:19 Ketara wrote: I'm not sure how putting relevant info next to the minimap is a problem.
Since most of the time you're looking at the minimap, and things like death and ult timers are directly related to map awareness and the reason why you look at the minimap, it makes sense that you only have to look in one place.
I don't understand why this hud is upsetting people.
It's just different and people don't like change. I'm used to it now and I think it's superior in almost all respects. Except for the score screen portraits lighting up. I have a hard time telling when they're lit up or dimmed showing who is in the FOW or now. Maybe I just need to get used to the lighter background.
Edit: @krndandaman I'm on a 15" laptop as well, playing in 1080p, with awful vision, and no way to compensate for it. I have no problem reading anything on the UI.
On July 26 2015 13:19 Ketara wrote: I'm not sure how putting relevant info next to the minimap is a problem.
Since most of the time you're looking at the minimap, and things like death and ult timers are directly related to map awareness and the reason why you look at the minimap, it makes sense that you only have to look in one place.
I don't understand why this hud is upsetting people.
I think it's the mix of relevant and irrelevant information. Ping is not something you really care to be looking at all the time. Your own score isn't really practically useful for anything in and of itself, and CS is already something you're constantly looking at through the scoreboard. So the mix of relevant and irrelevant information feels cluttered.
On July 26 2015 11:09 Caiada wrote: I think people are playing LoL on their phones or in 4:3 monitors from the 90s and are sad they can no longer see numbers when they don't take up most of the viewing area.
yea I play on a small monitor so what? doesnt mean riot can just say fuck you to a group of players and expect us to not complain. It's like not adding a wheelchair ramp to your restaurant because you dont employ any handicapped people. "oh sorry didnt see that arising because none of us have that problem"
Sorry dude, but a game company has to design their game around:
1. It can be played by the majority of "gaming computers"
and
2. It doesn't look like shit so people on the higher end of that majority will be willing to play/watch it
By running a 4:3 monitor, you're running a serious bottleneck on what companies expect the generic player to have.
except im not in the minority, since the majority doesnt like it.
On July 26 2015 14:41 Sufficiency wrote: I played with the new HUD: it seems to me that penetration (flat or %) and critical chance are not displayed anywhere. It's frustrating.
Have you tried pressing C to see your character sheet? It is all displayed clear as day.
On July 26 2015 14:41 Sufficiency wrote: I played with the new HUD: it seems to me that penetration (flat or %) and critical chance are not displayed anywhere. It's frustrating.
Have you tried pressing C to see your character sheet? It is all displayed clear as day.
On July 26 2015 13:19 Ketara wrote: I'm not sure how putting relevant info next to the minimap is a problem.
Since most of the time you're looking at the minimap, and things like death and ult timers are directly related to map awareness and the reason why you look at the minimap, it makes sense that you only have to look in one place.
I don't understand why this hud is upsetting people.
I think it's the mix of relevant and irrelevant information. Ping is not something you really care to be looking at all the time. Your own score isn't really practically useful for anything in and of itself, and CS is already something you're constantly looking at through the scoreboard. So the mix of relevant and irrelevant information feels cluttered.
ots probably a combination of three things. Density, size, and framing.
because the information is very close together you can't look quickly at an area of the screen and know what you're seeing. You ever notice how pros will hammer tab really fast when looking at the scoreboard? This is because it takes time to read the scoreboard due to the amount of info it has (this is why on streams riot orders the scoreboard info so it's easy to find players stats by their position). Players need to take time to see it but also need to see what they're doing. So they flash it a lot.
This has that problem constantly. Because everything is in the same place you have to look at it then figure out what you're looking at as you play which takes more time than if the info was in separate areas of the screen.
Compounding this is that because everything is in the same spot everything must be small. You can no longer look for the info in your peripheral vision. Whereas you could previously tell allied death timers and ultimates without really looking.
The third issue is that a lot of he info isn't framed well and so we don't have a reference to draw our eyes when searching. This is good when everything is cluttered but still not ideal.
On July 26 2015 13:19 Ketara wrote: I'm not sure how putting relevant info next to the minimap is a problem.
Since most of the time you're looking at the minimap, and things like death and ult timers are directly related to map awareness and the reason why you look at the minimap, it makes sense that you only have to look in one place.
I don't understand why this hud is upsetting people.
I think it's the mix of relevant and irrelevant information. Ping is not something you really care to be looking at all the time. Your own score isn't really practically useful for anything in and of itself, and CS is already something you're constantly looking at through the scoreboard. So the mix of relevant and irrelevant information feels cluttered.
ots probably a combination of three things. Density, size, and framing.
because the information is very close together you can't look quickly at an area of the screen and know what you're seeing. You ever notice how pros will hammer tab really fast when looking at the scoreboard? This is because it takes time to read the scoreboard due to the amount of info it has (this is why on streams riot orders the scoreboard info so it's easy to find players stats by their position). Players need to take time to see it but also need to see what they're doing. So they flash it a lot.
This has that problem constantly. Because everything is in the same place you have to look at it then figure out what you're looking at as you play which takes more time than if the info was in separate areas of the screen.
Compounding this is that because everything is in the same spot everything must be small. You can no longer look for the info in your peripheral vision. Whereas you could previously tell allied death timers and ultimates without really looking.
The third issue is that a lot of he info isn't framed well and so we don't have a reference to draw our eyes when searching. This is good when everything is cluttered but still not ideal.
TL;DR: don't change things that aren't broken. You will just be introducing new problems.
I was gonna post my opinion but this probably isn't an appropriate place to elaborate on such a thing other than to say I think she is dressed appropriately.
You know what the biggest disappointment was for me this patch? When I first read the notes I thought that when MF activated her W she would get 5 seconds of guaranteed strut (the duration of the ability). Instead it just reactivates the passive upon casting after which is is removed again by any damage. I don't think it would have been OP but I am no game balance expert so who knows.
On July 26 2015 16:16 Velocirapture wrote: I was gonna post my opinion but this probably isn't an appropriate place to elaborate on such a thing other than to say I think she is dressed appropriately.
You know what the biggest disappointment was for me this patch? When I first read the notes I thought that when MF activated her W she would get 5 seconds of guaranteed strut (the duration of the ability). Instead it just reactivates the passive upon casting after which is is removed again by any damage. I don't think it would have been OP but I am no game balance expert so who knows.
It's not like Vayne's passive, but I think the point is that when you W, you force your opponent to either turn around to hit you (which slows your opponent down, in a way) or get chased to death. It's not that bad at least on paper, but I do recognize that some champions can outplay her Strut better than others.
On July 26 2015 14:41 Sufficiency wrote: I played with the new HUD: it seems to me that penetration (flat or %) and critical chance are not displayed anywhere. It's frustrating.
Have you tried pressing C to see your character sheet? It is all displayed clear as day.
"Clear as day" with little detailed icons over text, and a much smaller font too. Sure, you can get used to it. Is it better than before? Certainly not.
I like the new HUD. Because things have moved around I can't instantly grab the information I want at a glance, but that's less a problem with the HUD and more a problem with years of familiarity with the old HUD.
I think a lot (not all) of the more forceful and vociferous complaints stem from that difficulty.
On July 26 2015 21:37 Seuss wrote: I like the new HUD. Because things have moved around I can't instantly grab the information I want at a glance, but that's less a problem with the HUD and more a problem with years of familiarity with the old HUD.
I think a lot (not all) of the more forceful and vociferous complaints stem from that difficulty.
Yeah, I'm with you on this.
I think it looks good. I just need time to get used to it.
I mean, I can get used to it. But it'll still be worse than the previous one because of how everything is crammed, and less efficient (when it's not crammed, it's dumb shit like the stats better leftmost instead of the portrait—that's the things I want most when I look there!).
NO, Whay does the font has to be Franklin Gothic!! I am so mad, can't we get some variety in there? some refreshing font for once? ARE WE ANIMALS RIOT?
I think some improvements could be made (the stats on top of the minimap and the scoreboard, particularly the latter, could be bigger, and a little more padding on the scoreboard would be nice), but I honestly don't think it will be worse once anyone is used to it.
Here's the old UI and the new UI in a nice animation. I've made it low resolution to fit onto the forum, but you can find a higher resolution one here.
I don't have time to address your complaints specifically at the moment, but when I compare the two I don't really see that the new HUD is objectively (not that one can truly be objective on such matters) worse.
The champion icons are smaller and have less space inbetween which makes it incredibly hard to click on them, there is too much shit clumped up which makes it harder to see in general and the animations for the abilities need to have an option to be turned off.
On July 27 2015 02:12 kongoline wrote: there were plenty of reddit threads explaining thoroughly why new HUD is inferior to old one, u should read them
On July 27 2015 02:12 kongoline wrote: there were plenty of reddit threads explaining thoroughly why new HUD is inferior to old one, u should read them
And a lot of it is opinion.
which further proves that giving only old choice or new one are both stupid
On July 27 2015 02:12 kongoline wrote: there were plenty of reddit threads explaining thoroughly why new HUD is inferior to old one, u should read them
And a lot of it is opinion.
how things like surrender vote taking half of the screen, not being able to distinguish regular +lvl from evolution on kha or blue tint on minimpa making it harder too see just an opinion,there was even post explaining why blue tint makes it harder to see from scientific stand point, not to mention plenty of vision impaired and color blind people got fucked by new colors/fonts/size majority dislikes new HUD i dont remember any change by riot ever creating even half as much hate
On July 27 2015 02:12 kongoline wrote: there were plenty of reddit threads explaining thoroughly why new HUD is inferior to old one, u should read them
And a lot of it is opinion.
how things like surrender vote taking half of the screen, not being able to distinguish regular +lvl from evolution on kha or blue tint on minimpa making it harder too see just an opinion,there was even post explaining why blue tint makes it harder to see from scientific stand point, not to mention plenty of vision impaired and color blind people got fucked by new colors/fonts/size majority dislikes new HUD i dont remember any change by riot ever creating even half as much hate
You're talking edge cases. These are important edge cases, but most of the complaints made have been of a fundamentally different nature. The common sentiment has been, "It's too difficult to find important information now."
This is a very tricky complaint to deal with when you make big changes to a UI, because it may not be the UI's fault at all. The biggest hurdle in UI design is user-expectations, and if your UI deviates from them in any way there will be complaints. This isn't limited to where the information is located on the screen as a whole, but also how it is situated within a UI element, changes to the shape and nature of said element, what other information it was previously connected to, and even the finer details like font and color. User expectations are complicated, and the users typically aren't aware of most of them.
Which makes it extremely difficult to figure out what are actual UI problems versus users reacting to change, as well as communicating the necessity of change to the users. The users feel their experience is worse, and even if it's purely because they simply aren't used to the new UI/workflow it's practically impossible to convince them that the change was worthwhile in any way.
So essentially it's my professional opinion that most of the complaints being made are the ephemeral reaction to change that will fade as players get used to the new HUD and the issues which aren't simply a matter of unfamiliarity come to the forefront and are addressed.
On July 27 2015 02:12 kongoline wrote: there were plenty of reddit threads explaining thoroughly why new HUD is inferior to old one, u should read them
And a lot of it is opinion.
how things like surrender vote taking half of the screen, not being able to distinguish regular +lvl from evolution on kha or blue tint on minimpa making it harder too see just an opinion,there was even post explaining why blue tint makes it harder to see from scientific stand point, not to mention plenty of vision impaired and color blind people got fucked by new colors/fonts/size majority dislikes new HUD i dont remember any change by riot ever creating even half as much hate
You're talking edge cases. These are important edge cases, but most of the complaints made have been of a fundamentally different nature. The common sentiment has been, "It's too difficult to find important information now."
This is a very tricky complaint to deal with when you make big changes to a UI, because it may not be the UI's fault at all. The biggest hurdle in UI design is user-expectations, and if your UI deviates from them in any way there will be complaints. This isn't limited to where the information is located on the screen as a whole, but also how it is situated within a UI element, changes to the shape and nature of said element, what other information it was previously connected to, and even the finer details like font and color. User expectations are complicated, and the users typically aren't aware of most of them.
Which makes it extremely difficult to figure out what are actual UI problems versus users reacting to change, as well as communicating the necessity of change to the users. The users feel their experience is worse, and even if it's purely because they simply aren't used to the new UI/workflow it's practically impossible to convince them that the change was worthwhile in any way.
So essentially it's my professional opinion that most of the complaints being made are the ephemeral reaction to change that will fade as players get used to the new HUD and the issues which aren't simply a matter of unfamiliarity come to the forefront and are addressed.
Even if that is true, you have to ask, "what are the unambiguous advantages of the new HUD?" Unless it is, objectively, 15, 20, 25%+ better then its just another set of wasted resources by Riot. And, unlike the other "wasted resources" of the Lyte-type, there is no excuse for these resources to not be dedicated to things players actually want like replays, death recap, etc.
yea thats probably the worst part of it all, they actually spent a lot of time and resources on this crap that could have been put elsewhere for something actually needed.
On July 27 2015 02:12 kongoline wrote: there were plenty of reddit threads explaining thoroughly why new HUD is inferior to old one, u should read them
And a lot of it is opinion.
how things like surrender vote taking half of the screen, not being able to distinguish regular +lvl from evolution on kha or blue tint on minimpa making it harder too see just an opinion,there was even post explaining why blue tint makes it harder to see from scientific stand point, not to mention plenty of vision impaired and color blind people got fucked by new colors/fonts/size majority dislikes new HUD i dont remember any change by riot ever creating even half as much hate
You're talking edge cases. These are important edge cases, but most of the complaints made have been of a fundamentally different nature. The common sentiment has been, "It's too difficult to find important information now."
There's a lot of these edge cases, though.
Also, for reference for other people who I've seen make some minor erroneous claims about the new HUD: You can click C to make your champion stats pop up. If you click on the little helmet next to the icon, then the lower of the two boxes stays up permanently, and clicking C makes the top box (which has pen and crit chance etc on it) appear. You can click tab to make the scoreboard pop up. You can click O to make it stay up until you close it or hit O again.
My complaints personally are that the colour changes do make it much more difficult for me to see some things (I play with colourblind mode on) such as the minimap and the QWER cooldown timers. I find very frequently I'm trying to cast a skill when it's on cooldown and I make a stupid mistake because of it. Leblanc's W also messed me up real bad in an ARAM QQ
I do really like that some new things can be rearranged (scoreboard, the icons over the minimap), though.
On July 27 2015 02:12 kongoline wrote: there were plenty of reddit threads explaining thoroughly why new HUD is inferior to old one, u should read them
And a lot of it is opinion.
how things like surrender vote taking half of the screen, not being able to distinguish regular +lvl from evolution on kha or blue tint on minimpa making it harder too see just an opinion,there was even post explaining why blue tint makes it harder to see from scientific stand point, not to mention plenty of vision impaired and color blind people got fucked by new colors/fonts/size majority dislikes new HUD i dont remember any change by riot ever creating even half as much hate
You're talking edge cases. These are important edge cases, but most of the complaints made have been of a fundamentally different nature. The common sentiment has been, "It's too difficult to find important information now."
This is a very tricky complaint to deal with when you make big changes to a UI, because it may not be the UI's fault at all. The biggest hurdle in UI design is user-expectations, and if your UI deviates from them in any way there will be complaints. This isn't limited to where the information is located on the screen as a whole, but also how it is situated within a UI element, changes to the shape and nature of said element, what other information it was previously connected to, and even the finer details like font and color. User expectations are complicated, and the users typically aren't aware of most of them.
Which makes it extremely difficult to figure out what are actual UI problems versus users reacting to change, as well as communicating the necessity of change to the users. The users feel their experience is worse, and even if it's purely because they simply aren't used to the new UI/workflow it's practically impossible to convince them that the change was worthwhile in any way.
So essentially it's my professional opinion that most of the complaints being made are the ephemeral reaction to change that will fade as players get used to the new HUD and the issues which aren't simply a matter of unfamiliarity come to the forefront and are addressed.
Even if that is true, you have to ask, "what are the unambiguous advantages of the new HUD?" Unless it is, objectively, 15, 20, 25%+ better then its just another set of wasted resources by Riot. And, unlike the other "wasted resources" of the Lyte-type, there is no excuse for these resources to not be dedicated to things players actually want like replays, death recap, etc.
The amount of screen space that's been freed up for the actual game, plus the better ordering of information, are big deals. The UI itself is also more aesthetically pleasing, which may not seem important but a game's look and feel has more to do with its success than many gamers/players like to admit.
On July 27 2015 02:12 kongoline wrote: there were plenty of reddit threads explaining thoroughly why new HUD is inferior to old one, u should read them
And a lot of it is opinion.
how things like surrender vote taking half of the screen, not being able to distinguish regular +lvl from evolution on kha or blue tint on minimpa making it harder too see just an opinion,there was even post explaining why blue tint makes it harder to see from scientific stand point, not to mention plenty of vision impaired and color blind people got fucked by new colors/fonts/size majority dislikes new HUD i dont remember any change by riot ever creating even half as much hate
You're talking edge cases. These are important edge cases, but most of the complaints made have been of a fundamentally different nature. The common sentiment has been, "It's too difficult to find important information now."
This is a very tricky complaint to deal with when you make big changes to a UI, because it may not be the UI's fault at all. The biggest hurdle in UI design is user-expectations, and if your UI deviates from them in any way there will be complaints. This isn't limited to where the information is located on the screen as a whole, but also how it is situated within a UI element, changes to the shape and nature of said element, what other information it was previously connected to, and even the finer details like font and color. User expectations are complicated, and the users typically aren't aware of most of them.
Which makes it extremely difficult to figure out what are actual UI problems versus users reacting to change, as well as communicating the necessity of change to the users. The users feel their experience is worse, and even if it's purely because they simply aren't used to the new UI/workflow it's practically impossible to convince them that the change was worthwhile in any way.
So essentially it's my professional opinion that most of the complaints being made are the ephemeral reaction to change that will fade as players get used to the new HUD and the issues which aren't simply a matter of unfamiliarity come to the forefront and are addressed.
Even if that is true, you have to ask, "what are the unambiguous advantages of the new HUD?" Unless it is, objectively, 15, 20, 25%+ better then its just another set of wasted resources by Riot. And, unlike the other "wasted resources" of the Lyte-type, there is no excuse for these resources to not be dedicated to things players actually want like replays, death recap, etc.
The amount of screen space that's been freed up for the actual game, plus the better ordering of information, are big deals. The UI itself is also more aesthetically pleasing, which may not seem important but a game's look and feel has more to do with its success than many gamers/players like to admit.
You don't save any space that isn't counteracted by losing readability and ease of use since you only gain space by making things smaller and putting them closer together. Information that you want to access quickly (like how much xp you have) is burried while information you don't need fast (overall kill score) is placed in close proximity to information you need fast and/or all the time (champion ult status/map info)
By moving info into the same place you free up less important real estate(screen edge) by obscuring more important real estate
By cramping information you make it harder to scale the entire UI because text bleeds together or becomes unreadably smal.
The old UI has none of these problems and only had the problem that the frames used we slightly too large and could be trimmed.
XP is now in a curved bar instead of a straight one and you still have to mouse over for exact numbers. Oh no.
What more important real estate? A little bit of the bottom right of the screen, probably the least-used fourth aside from top left because of map design?
On July 27 2015 06:58 Caiada wrote: XP is now in a curved bar instead of a straight one and you still have to mouse over for exact numbers. Oh no.
What more important real estate? A little bit of the bottom right of the screen, probably the least-used fourth aside from top left because of map design?
Kind of a big deal when you need to figure out precisely how many minions to level and whether or not you're going to beat the other duo lane there.
The entire left side of the screen isn't very valuable just like the bottom left. Seriously just messing with the frames to size things down would have been a lot better.
On July 27 2015 02:12 kongoline wrote: there were plenty of reddit threads explaining thoroughly why new HUD is inferior to old one, u should read them
And a lot of it is opinion.
how things like surrender vote taking half of the screen, not being able to distinguish regular +lvl from evolution on kha or blue tint on minimpa making it harder too see just an opinion,there was even post explaining why blue tint makes it harder to see from scientific stand point, not to mention plenty of vision impaired and color blind people got fucked by new colors/fonts/size majority dislikes new HUD i dont remember any change by riot ever creating even half as much hate
You're talking edge cases. These are important edge cases, but most of the complaints made have been of a fundamentally different nature. The common sentiment has been, "It's too difficult to find important information now."
This is a very tricky complaint to deal with when you make big changes to a UI, because it may not be the UI's fault at all. The biggest hurdle in UI design is user-expectations, and if your UI deviates from them in any way there will be complaints. This isn't limited to where the information is located on the screen as a whole, but also how it is situated within a UI element, changes to the shape and nature of said element, what other information it was previously connected to, and even the finer details like font and color. User expectations are complicated, and the users typically aren't aware of most of them.
Which makes it extremely difficult to figure out what are actual UI problems versus users reacting to change, as well as communicating the necessity of change to the users. The users feel their experience is worse, and even if it's purely because they simply aren't used to the new UI/workflow it's practically impossible to convince them that the change was worthwhile in any way.
So essentially it's my professional opinion that most of the complaints being made are the ephemeral reaction to change that will fade as players get used to the new HUD and the issues which aren't simply a matter of unfamiliarity come to the forefront and are addressed.
Even if that is true, you have to ask, "what are the unambiguous advantages of the new HUD?" Unless it is, objectively, 15, 20, 25%+ better then its just another set of wasted resources by Riot. And, unlike the other "wasted resources" of the Lyte-type, there is no excuse for these resources to not be dedicated to things players actually want like replays, death recap, etc.
The amount of screen space that's been freed up for the actual game, plus the better ordering of information, are big deals. The UI itself is also more aesthetically pleasing, which may not seem important but a game's look and feel has more to do with its success than many gamers/players like to admit.
You don't save any space that isn't counteracted by losing readability and ease of use since you only gain space by making things smaller and putting them closer together. Information that you want to access quickly (like how much xp you have) is burried while information you don't need fast (overall kill score) is placed in close proximity to information you need fast and/or all the time (champion ult status/map info)
By moving info into the same place you free up less important real estate(screen edge) by obscuring more important real estate
By cramping information you make it harder to scale the entire UI because text bleeds together or becomes unreadably smal.
The old UI has none of these problems and only had the problem that the frames used we slightly too large and could be trimmed.
I find things just as readable as before, provided I'm looking at them. My problem in terms of reading has entirely been that I look in the wrong places or don't recognize new icons or context. As I've become familiar with elements obtaining the information within them has become as automatic as it was with the old UI.
I don't find scaling the UI to have a significant impact on the readability except for a couple extremely specific (and not particularly important) bits of information, and as a whole the minor loss of real estate on the bottom is more than made up for in gains elsewhere.
There are improvements that could be made.
Penetration numbers are too small. They aren't super important, but they should be more readable.
The kill/stats/cs numbers on the minimap could be larger.
Tower, dragon, and kill counts on the score board could also be bigger.
The XP mouseover should be an integrated UI element.
In general, text color should be a little lighter so it pops out more from the background.
I don't really see the cramming argument save perhaps when it comes to the scoreboard, but then the previous scoreboard had what I'd qualify as far too much empty space and I vastly prefer the new side by side setup. In terms of stuff like champion stats the old way is arguably more crammed and certainly less organized than the new way.
On July 27 2015 19:09 SoSexy wrote: Guys how do you open the character window in the new hud? I can't find crit stats anymore...
Hold C. It doesn't open a window anymore and it a small panel to the left of your character icon. Next patch they're swapping the crit and range positions.
Fuck people who have last 3 item slots on z/x/c (aka me). Guess I can set stats for 5 but the whole point was to not have to use that button because it's too far :/
On July 27 2015 22:37 AlterKot wrote: Fuck people who have last 3 item slots on z/x/c (aka me). Guess I can set stats for 5 but the whole point was to not have to use that button because it's too far :/
Also fuck people who have trinket on C, like myself xD
More seriously I'm all for more variety, whether that be more variety within a role or more variety as to team compositions/configurations. Actually achieving the kind of balance where an ADC or jungler is optional and not outright suboptimal will be extremely difficult without fairly substantial changes to the game.
On July 27 2015 23:10 Seuss wrote: Season 1 Bruiser-meta here we come!
More seriously I'm all for more variety, whether that be more variety within a role or more variety as to team compositions/configurations. Actually achieving the kind of balance where an ADC or jungler is optional and not outright suboptimal will be extremely difficult without fairly substantial changes to the game.
Yea it's one of those ideas that just frankly won't happen but it's nice to think about and dream at least. I remember when Targons first came in and you could double Targon in lanes. That was a sick time. 2-1-2 setup just stomping on people lol. I highly doubt we'd ever see Jungle as an optional position as Riot spends so much time trying to make it a thing.
We're probably in a decent meta for swapping the ADC elsewhere or dropping it for an AD mid. Thing is, I can't think of any ADC that scales well with levels besides the ones that already fill a solo-lane, and aside from mostly-out-of-meta Karthus, there's nobody that could either 1v2 or needs the sort of babysitting an ADC usually does.
Zeke's remake is so stupid, the last 5 games I've played have been decided entirely on which side's support got it first regardless of how the botlane was going before. Starting to consider just delaying Sightstone and tell my adc to help with warding botlane until I finish Zeke's.
While it's fun to suddenly have the largest powerspike as support the item is just too stupid.
On July 27 2015 23:10 Seuss wrote: Season 1 Bruiser-meta here we come!
More seriously I'm all for more variety, whether that be more variety within a role or more variety as to team compositions/configurations. Actually achieving the kind of balance where an ADC or jungler is optional and not outright suboptimal will be extremely difficult without fairly substantial changes to the game.
season 1 was AoE comps and split pushers season 2 was bruisers
It also returned for a couple patches after the lynchpin AoE teamfight heroes (Galio, Vlad, Morgana, Amumu, Sona, etc.) all received significant nerfs, and people suddenly realized champs like Gragas and Malphite were actually good.
It gave way to 4-protects-1 play when people realized most of the bruisers of the time didn't have the tools engage on a backline ADC, and most of the assassins just weren't that good yet, period.
Corki scales very well with levels and gets his power spike at 6. At some point (s3 Worlds I think? The whole reason support Annie was used at the time) the duo was sometimes sent mid to completely screw some picks (like Kassadin who'd get straight up zoned), but that wouldn't work anymore because he'd prob just use the jungler or the support to leech some exp/cs or the team would fast push one of the sidelanes since they're both "empty" and still provide some gold to the zoned mid this way.
After all if you shove mid tower and take it then the mid can farm back up at the cost of some map presence.
On July 28 2015 00:38 Jek wrote: Zeke's remake is so stupid, the last 5 games I've played have been decided entirely on which side's support got it first regardless of how the botlane was going before. Starting to consider just delaying Sightstone and tell my adc to help with warding botlane until I finish Zeke's.
While it's fun to suddenly have the largest powerspike as support the item is just too stupid.
Wow and ardent censer does a lot of damage too. I'm impressed. Riot really bringing some power to the AoE/team support items.
after playing around with zeke's the proper way to do things would be nerf it to like 25% crit and 10% AP but make it an active. as it is now its just a luck based thing like gnar ult but it has no visibility so its different.
On July 27 2015 23:06 Numy wrote: What? I'd love for ADC not to be mandatory either. The whole setup with LoL feels so miff. Would love junglers to not be required either.
No ADC means less homogeneous powercurves are required (i.e. a character that is 50+ farm behind is actually ahead) which is the opposite of Riot's design philosophy, so IDK where GC is getting his meds.
On July 27 2015 23:06 Numy wrote: What? I'd love for ADC not to be mandatory either. The whole setup with LoL feels so miff. Would love junglers to not be required either.
No ADC means less homogeneous powercurves are required (i.e. a character that is 50+ farm behind is actually ahead) which is the opposite of Riot's design philosophy, so IDK where GC is getting his meds.
you're gonna have to explain your reasoning behind that
On July 27 2015 23:06 Numy wrote: What? I'd love for ADC not to be mandatory either. The whole setup with LoL feels so miff. Would love junglers to not be required either.
No ADC means less homogeneous powercurves are required (i.e. a character that is 50+ farm behind is actually ahead) which is the opposite of Riot's design philosophy, so IDK where GC is getting his meds.
you're gonna have to explain your reasoning behind that
Homogeneous powercurves means that laning advantages are inordinately powerful. If you have a melee carry laning against ADC+support, they're going to come out of laning behind, so in order for it to be stable going into the midgame, the inherent strength of its kit needs it to be as strong/stronger at that point in time in spite of the gold disadvantage of being weaker in lane.
On July 27 2015 23:06 Numy wrote: What? I'd love for ADC not to be mandatory either. The whole setup with LoL feels so miff. Would love junglers to not be required either.
No ADC means less homogeneous powercurves are required (i.e. a character that is 50+ farm behind is actually ahead) which is the opposite of Riot's design philosophy, so IDK where GC is getting his meds.
you're gonna have to explain your reasoning behind that
Homogeneous powercurves means that laning advantages are inordinately powerful. If you have a melee carry laning against ADC+support, they're going to come out of laning behind, so in order for it to be stable going into the midgame, the inherent strength of its kit needs it to be as strong/stronger at that point in time in spite of the gold disadvantage of being weaker in lane.
Basically. Its basically just you imagine whatever is your "ADC replacement" in a Caitlyn-Janna or Lucian-Alistar, or whatever lane. I like Jax, so I pick Jax, how many CS are you going to be behind as a Jax with whatever optimal support there is for Jax(Janna?) vs. those lanes? Probably you are missing 30-50% of CS, plus losing your tower right away. Maybe a dragon, and your jungler loses that side of his jungle, even though your duo lane is there.
So, hypothetical Jax needs to be as useful as said ADC at some point in the game down several core items, and then later needs to be stronger even when down core items. This is the opposite of the direction they are going with things like the Trist rework, their statements on Poppy, ADC itemization, dragon stacking, etc. You are meant to win this game by winning lane, and using that marginal advantage to pick up more marginal advantages. Not by surviving and then exploding onto your enemies with a 3 item timing.
On July 27 2015 23:06 Numy wrote: What? I'd love for ADC not to be mandatory either. The whole setup with LoL feels so miff. Would love junglers to not be required either.
No ADC means less homogeneous powercurves are required (i.e. a character that is 50+ farm behind is actually ahead) which is the opposite of Riot's design philosophy, so IDK where GC is getting his meds.
you're gonna have to explain your reasoning behind that
Homogeneous powercurves means that laning advantages are inordinately powerful. If you have a melee carry laning against ADC+support, they're going to come out of laning behind, so in order for it to be stable going into the midgame, the inherent strength of its kit needs it to be as strong/stronger at that point in time in spite of the gold disadvantage of being weaker in lane.
Basically. Its basically just you imagine whatever is your "ADC replacement" in a Caitlyn-Janna or Lucian-Alistar, or whatever lane. I like Jax, so I pick Jax, how many CS are you going to be behind as a Jax with whatever optimal support there is for Jax(Janna?) vs. those lanes? Probably you are missing 30-50% of CS, plus losing your tower right away. Maybe a dragon, and your jungler loses that side of his jungle, even though your duo lane is there.
So, hypothetical Jax needs to be as useful as said ADC at some point in the game down several core items, and then later needs to be stronger even when down core items. This is the opposite of the direction they are going with things like the Trist rework, their statements on Poppy, ADC itemization, dragon stacking, etc. You are meant to win this game by winning lane, and using that marginal advantage to pick up more marginal advantages. Not by surviving and then exploding onto your enemies with a 3 item timing.
Ok, it seems more like what they are looking for is an AP/support or melee/support that can actual succeed in lane vs at least some ADC/sup lanes.
I'm honestly kind of surprised that we havent seen any use of ryze/cass/azir as substitutes for ADC in bot lane, especially with azir's turret killing power.
They could try giving some sort of melee a really exceptionally good CSing ability, which was less effective PvP. Or maybe a layered shield that refreshed on killing creeps etc. There is design space available to allow a melee to lane vs ADC.
The trouble that arises then is that such a hypothetical hero has the tools to lane 2v2 vs AD+Support has to not be totally oppressive 1v1 top also. Otherwise, you'd just run him top with normal ADC+Supp anyway.
It's not just the issue of making *a* hero that can lane vs ADC/Supp, but systematically opening up the option enough that from a teamcomp perspective, you have enough incentive to build a teamcomp that actually uses that hero in the dual lane rather than soloing it in a normal teamcomp.
said hero already exists, his name is yasuo. Has every tool you want bot lane to be successful as a replacement melee adc. me and my duo run yasuo/blitz bot at d2-ish with high success, id say around 75% winrate.
The actual problem is the psychological impact it has on your teammates, nothing to do with the game itself. People will think you are trolling and you either
1. start actually trolling and ruining game at champ select
2. pick something stupid like adc mid/top defeating the entire point of having such a comp.
3. pick something they don't play "meh we lost" attitude
and the reasons yasuo does well bot is hypothetical infinite mobility, windwall, scales better with items instead of levels. he also isn't taking up a role that could synergize with him since I think the only adc that can knockup people is kalista.
'To have more diverse possible laning like DotA, we need to have all the shit DotA does to support that.'
I dunno, seems overly simplistic.
I'm reasonably sure the only reason people don't experiment with shit like that on a large scale, and really with champion picks in general, is stubbornness and little incentive. The developed meta in this game is not really ever that old before broad changes happen again, and more low-level skill requirements (laning, warding, so on) makes broad, high-level strategy and countering a lot less important in addition.
On July 28 2015 05:31 TheYango wrote: The trouble that arises then is that such a hypothetical hero has the tools to lane 2v2 vs AD+Support has to not be totally oppressive 1v1 top also. Otherwise, you'd just run him top with normal ADC+Supp anyway.
It's not just the issue of making *a* hero that can lane vs ADC/Supp, but systematically opening up the option enough that from a teamcomp perspective, you have enough incentive to build a teamcomp that actually uses that hero in the dual lane rather than soloing it in a normal teamcomp.
You can heavily disincentivize soloing and incentivize duoing a hero
1. Leona style proc on ally attack effects. 2. Self disabling CC. 3. Buff auras. 4. Bonus effects to shields and healing. Without/few shields or healing in kit. 5. Ally dependant mobility skills. thresh/braum 6. Effects that charge on nearby spellcast. 7. Skills that are great for CSing but weak PvP. 8. Champion only bouncing skills (brand ult/Nami etc). 9. Heavily delayed skills that need ally setup. 10. Wukong/Irelia type buffs on # of nearby champions.
Those are just some random general ideas.Then there are all sorts of weird stuff you can do like a skill that pulls two enemies towards each other that aren't regularly usable in solo lanes etc etc...
they just haven't really tried particularly hard in that direction.
On July 28 2015 05:43 VayneAuthority wrote: said hero already exists, his name is yasuo. Has every tool you want bot lane to be successful as a replacement melee adc. me and my duo run yasuo/blitz bot at d2-ish with high success, id say around 75% winrate.
The actual problem is the psychological impact it has on your teammates, nothing to do with the game itself. People will think you are trolling and you either
1. start actually trolling and ruining game at champ select
2. pick something stupid like adc mid/top defeating the entire point of having such a comp.
3. pick something they don't play "meh we lost" attitude
and the reasons yasuo does well bot is hypothetical infinite mobility, windwall, scales better with items instead of levels. he also isn't taking up a role that could synergize with him since I think the only adc that can knockup people is kalista.
I don't doubt your success, I just wonder if you have also gotten it to work with a safer support (obviously with a knockup) like Ali/Thresh/Janna? It does seem like a very strong lane if they react poorly.
There's all sorts of bruiser duos that are viable botlane, though they're usually reactive picks. Me and my friend played around with double Targon's when the item first came out. Leona, Blitz, Lee, Darius + J4, etc. were all fairly good.
Also, Yasuo + knockup support with new Zeke's? Yes please.
On July 28 2015 05:43 VayneAuthority wrote: said hero already exists, his name is yasuo. Has every tool you want bot lane to be successful as a replacement melee adc. me and my duo run yasuo/blitz bot at d2-ish with high success, id say around 75% winrate.
The actual problem is the psychological impact it has on your teammates, nothing to do with the game itself. People will think you are trolling and you either
1. start actually trolling and ruining game at champ select
2. pick something stupid like adc mid/top defeating the entire point of having such a comp.
3. pick something they don't play "meh we lost" attitude
and the reasons yasuo does well bot is hypothetical infinite mobility, windwall, scales better with items instead of levels. he also isn't taking up a role that could synergize with him since I think the only adc that can knockup people is kalista.
I don't doubt your success, I just wonder if you have also gotten it to work with a safer support (obviously with a knockup) like Ali/Thresh/Janna? It does seem like a very strong lane if they react poorly.
im not an actual support player, i just know blitz very well. Janna sounds awful since you need 100-0 burst, alistar would be the same problem. thresh would probably work but not qute the same burst as blitz.
On July 28 2015 00:38 Jek wrote: Zeke's remake is so stupid, the last 5 games I've played have been decided entirely on which side's support got it first regardless of how the botlane was going before. Starting to consider just delaying Sightstone and tell my adc to help with warding botlane until I finish Zeke's.
While it's fun to suddenly have the largest powerspike as support the item is just too stupid.
idk I saw someone do some math and apparently ardent censer was better? especially earlier on. zeke's gets pretty good lategame though since you essentially get near 100% crit for your adc.
I saw the math too. I don't think it wasn't written very well so I couldn't get the gist of it.
But at least in the short term, intuitively, I know 50% crit is more damage for an AD build.
~20 total AAs/9 spell casts, or some combination therein. And the duration is short. You also must stay with your support to build charges; all of them are lost if you get out of range.
I've been testing out Orianna with Nashor recently and I can't believe how much single target damage she is able to do. Her AA actually deals more single target damage than her Q by the second hit. I think I'm gonna try running Mana regen runes and just build nashor instead of Tear/Athene's/Morello. The burst is just as strong too because Nashor now grants 80 AP.
On July 28 2015 09:04 AsianEcksDragon wrote: I've been testing witting out Orianna with Nashor recently and I can't believe how much single target damage she is able to do. Her AA actually deals more single target damage than her Q by the second hit. I think I'm gonna try running Mana regen runes and just build nashor instead of Tear/Athene's/Morello. The burst is just as strong too because Nashor now grants 80 AP.
The problem with Nashor's (and Lichbane) is that you've got 525 AA range as an immobile caster. It's theoretically plenty of sustained damage, but that just fills a role she doesn't care about when most of her value is in quick QWR combos lategame. She's also way too mana hungry to get enough from runes/masteries, and, especially this patch, has a ton of much more useful items to get.
On July 28 2015 10:29 Ketara wrote: Yeah you don't pick Orianna for damage.
If you want a sustained damage mage play Azir. Or Cassiopeia, or whatever the fuck people play now.
Not every game is OGN championship split. I like to keep an open mind and test new things. Rather than learn new champions that I am no familiar with nor interested in, I'd rather discover new ways to play one that I enjoy playing.
On July 27 2015 23:06 Numy wrote: What? I'd love for ADC not to be mandatory either. The whole setup with LoL feels so miff. Would love junglers to not be required either.
ADCs should always be "required" because they provide an end game and structure to team fights.
The only other options are that consistent damage APs can do enough to negate the single damage type problem or you make ability focused ADs (which already exist in the meta by way of Varus and Ez). Which seems bad because then why have armor/mr at all?
The move away from ADCs would actually reduce variation because the remaining options represent fewer reasonable team compositions.
ADs also provide an answer to the problem of turrets and late game they force that someone will win.
Also keep in mind that it's not as if bruiser duo lanes are bad, it's just that they have to be active and win lane in order to win the game. This will almost never happen on a competitive level without buffing that makes other champions obsolete.
On July 28 2015 00:38 Jek wrote: Zeke's remake is so stupid, the last 5 games I've played have been decided entirely on which side's support got it first regardless of how the botlane was going before. Starting to consider just delaying Sightstone and tell my adc to help with warding botlane until I finish Zeke's.
While it's fun to suddenly have the largest powerspike as support the item is just too stupid.
idk I saw someone do some math and apparently ardent censer was better? especially earlier on. zeke's gets pretty good lategame though since you essentially get near 100% crit for your adc.
Math was far from correct(it overstated the effect of the AS boost, thinking it was a flat 15% dps increase rather than how it interacts with the fact that you will have some 100-130% bonus AS at that point in the game) and neglected to mention just how far ahead zekes was (far enough that a duo with censor was super dead already) or how zekes scales into the 4 and 5 item timings much much better.
Edit: my math suggests that at that point in the game censor is worth about 13% DPS increase and this falls off as the game goes later and zekes is 29.5% from there until your AD buys a second PD
On July 28 2015 11:55 LaNague wrote: are you not used to riot yet?
do something useless- people complain - make LCS use it - people see their idols use useless thing- useless thing is now the new hot thing
But old viktor was better, we swear!
Old viktor was better. He had a stronger laning phase and an earlier and more powerful power spike.
What happened was that
1) assassins got nerfed
2) every other meta mid lane with wave clear like ziggs and xerath etc got nerfed into the ground. This made viktor both incredibly safe in lane but it also meant that there didn't exist any other team fighting mids who could also hard clear waves and stall the game.
There was a decent video on Nashor's Orianna here.
I think the Nashor's build probably does more damage thatn traditional builds. But in my experience trying Nashor's on AP Ezreal, it left you really vulnerable. Even with all of Ezreal's aspd scaling and escapes, putting himself in a vulnerable position to autoattack left him too open. I'm of the opinion that the standard AP builds that ignore Nashors are better for AP mids not Kayle or Teemo. Or at the least, I'd skip Runeglaive if I went mid.
I've been trying Nashors, W max Azir these days. Soldiers have incredible DPS and you don't consume as much mana as with the regular build, so you are free to skip the mana regen item and go full damage.
Also you can't really siege towers if you play a bruiser in lieu of a ranged AD carry. Sure, someone like Cassiopeia is going to hit towers for a bunch because of all her AP, and you have champions like Nasus, Rengar, Zed, Talon who truck them. But you still need to get in range and the easier way to do that is usually to fight and route the enemy team, and once that's done it doesn't matter for the tower whether you're ranged or melee.
That video is dumb because it's looking at Nashors+Runeglaive vs. Zhonya+Athenes. Zhonya and Athenes have a lot of stats in defense while Nashors+Runeglaive are pure offensive items. Of course the first build is going to outdamage the second one.
A much more fair comparison would be Void+Athenes or Lich Bane+Athenes or Runeglaive+Athenes or something like that.
From looking at that my conclusion is basically that Runeglaive is a stupid item, not that Nashors is good on Orianna.
I've played two games on new HUD and I hate it with passion. It might actually be the thing that makes me finally stop playing league, it's riddiculous.
Also I sometimes notice on videos that there's a visible turret range displayed, but I could never find an option for that in menus, is that some 3rd party stuff?
There's "used to" and then there's "I can automatically retrieve the information I want without even thinking about it". The former shouldn't take long, the latter can take a while.
Played 10 arams didn't really get used to it at all.Biggest problem is not being able to click portraits on the left side.The other shit is just annoying not really a problem in play.
On July 29 2015 01:16 Seuss wrote: There's "used to" and then there's "I can automatically retrieve the information I want without even thinking about it". The former shouldn't take long, the latter can take a while.
Sure, I can buy that, but reading reddit and this thread, you'd think Riot switched to Wingdings font or something. The only information that I have found difficult to access is enemy summoner names (since I have nameplates off), but obviously that's not a concern for pro games. In fact, the biggest inconvenience is that I keep hitting "c" to check my CDR but then realize it's already visible without me needing to do that.
Aside from having to set a new button for stats, I'm still having huge trouble reading cooldowns, exact hp/mana values and whether the ability is unavailable to me because it's on cooldown or because I'm out of mana. Those are probably the biggest problems for me. Maybe exp bar too I'm not sure.
I actually prefer the old HUD. It was kind of big and had dead space, but that made it clean-- super easy to just tab it open and glance at what items everyone had. I couldn't give more of a crap about individual stat totals.
On July 29 2015 01:19 nafta wrote: Played 10 arams didn't really get used to it at all.Biggest problem is not being able to click portraits on the left side.The other shit is just annoying not really a problem in play.
only in bot games you can see tower range
I personally never used the portraits for anything, but I can see how that would be a problem.
On July 29 2015 01:19 nafta wrote: Played 10 arams didn't really get used to it at all.Biggest problem is not being able to click portraits on the left side.The other shit is just annoying not really a problem in play.
only in bot games you can see tower range
I personally never used the portraits for anything, but I can see how that would be a problem.
On July 29 2015 01:19 nafta wrote: Played 10 arams didn't really get used to it at all.Biggest problem is not being able to click portraits on the left side.The other shit is just annoying not really a problem in play.
only in bot games you can see tower range
I personally never used the portraits for anything, but I can see how that would be a problem.
Can you not click on the ones to the right?
I have played this game on and off for 5 years.You realize how hard it is to just change your habits?
Not to mention they are much smaller and have 0 space inbetween.
On July 29 2015 01:19 nafta wrote: Played 10 arams didn't really get used to it at all.Biggest problem is not being able to click portraits on the left side.The other shit is just annoying not really a problem in play.
only in bot games you can see tower range
I personally never used the portraits for anything, but I can see how that would be a problem.
Can you not click on the ones to the right?
I have played this game on and off for 5 years.You realize how hard it is to just change your habits?
Not to mention they are much smaller and have 0 space inbetween.
I just wanted to know if the functionality was still in the game. I'm not expecting you to zip through the 14 day habit creation period.
On July 29 2015 01:15 AlterKot wrote: I've played two games on new HUD and I hate it with passion. It might actually be the thing that makes me finally stop playing league, it's riddiculous.
Also I sometimes notice on videos that there's a visible turret range displayed, but I could never find an option for that in menus, is that some 3rd party stuff?
For what it's worth I'm also in the camp of people I was poking fun at. I did like old Viktor and old Karma more, although I still like the latter, especially when URF rolls around.
I just hate that we saw the age of safe long range poke mages come to fruition like 2 months after old Xerath got reworked or people would know how truely OP he was
On July 29 2015 03:48 Slusher wrote: I just hate that we saw the age of safe long range poke mages come to fruition like 2 months after old Xerath got reworked or people would know how truely OP he was
Regi was making Pre-Rework Xerath look good. During his "I really should and want to retire" phase. That champion definitely had a place.
On July 29 2015 01:16 Seuss wrote: There's "used to" and then there's "I can automatically retrieve the information I want without even thinking about it". The former shouldn't take long, the latter can take a while.
Sure, I can buy that, but reading reddit and this thread, you'd think Riot switched to Wingdings font or something. The only information that I have found difficult to access is enemy summoner names (since I have nameplates off), but obviously that's not a concern for pro games. In fact, the biggest inconvenience is that I keep hitting "c" to check my CDR but then realize it's already visible without me needing to do that.
I think the outcry is more that part of the reasoning giving for not allowing people to change the hud how they want is due to compromising "competitive integrity". They then force the new hud in the professional competitive setting while it's only enabled in "non-competitive" game modes. Juts the normal hypocrisy at work so people find it funny I guess.
As for how long it takes to "get used to" it's as Seuss says. When you are effectively living by playing the game there's a lot of things your body does without you consciously thinking about it. That takes time to settle in which given how there's no hud on ranked and how short there is until he has to play there just isn't enough time. It's even worse as being in a high pressure situation you want to make sure as many variables as possible are "normal" to you as to try remove some of the stress. I can imagine your brain defaulting to the old normal hud while in a super stressful game situation which could cause even more frustration.
Xerath was fun, but his design was such that he could never be given competitive numbers without becoming incredibly broken. MR being ineffective against an AP carry with 1300 range is pretty much the definition of a bad idea.
Still, I liked his old kit better. I know he saw some competitive play with the new kit, but it never clicked for me the way the old kit did.
In light of the HUD skin thing Existor posted, how long until something like the Curse Voice timers comes up that just straight-up layers new stuff into the game to recreate the old HUD? I imagine someone's working on it already, and if riot responds to it at all I'm expecting giggles.
I've discovered why I don't like the new HUD (at least this theory fits best) and it putting almost everything in the same place: Driving. It feels almost like they crammed all 3 rear view mirrors right on top of the speedometer. Instead of, Center-Left-Center-Top-Center-Right-Center-Down as an information gathering pattern its always Center-Down(and to the right) with a need to look hard to distinguish.
Basically, you want the UI to form a kind of "viewing window" around the main action, so a slight look in one direction gives you one block of info, while another direction gives you a different set.
Would we? I don't really know much about the field but just from a purely layman's POV it feels like putting all the information at one point means that there's a lot of information there that I don't want to see that makes it harder to quickly get the information I do want to see. Having key information around the main focus instead of at one singular point means that each piece of information is easier to quickly digest. Our brain could work completely different to this though as I said I have no idea about the field lol.
Old Xerath was super fun when you had CDR and maxed his W, you could do a crappy stutter step where you WQ, run back, with movespeed buff WQ, run back, rinse repeat etc.
On July 29 2015 04:38 Caiada wrote: If we could make a practical rearview mirror that put everything on one mirror, we would. Unfortunately, you know, optics and shit.
While I don't think this is true (see, for example, Fitt's Law), I also think that you need to consider the native environment that we live in where things are not concentrated in one spot. Not just in the interface of cars, but also other game UIs like Starcraft (bottom heavy, but spread out on the entire bottom plus top-right), WOW (fully customizable, but defaults to Left-Bottom-Topright), DOTA2 (Bottom, left, top), etc.
You aren't learning a new UI, you are learning new eye movement techniques.
I wonder how many of the people who find the new HUD fine are experienced WoW raiders, because having a crapton of information in the bottom middle of the screen is par for the course.
On July 29 2015 04:42 Numy wrote: Would we? I don't really know much about the field but just from a purely layman's POV it feels like putting all the information at one point means that there's a lot of information there that I don't want to see that makes it harder to quickly get the information I do want to see. Having key information around the main focus instead of at one singular point means that each piece of information is easier to quickly digest. Our brain could work completely different to this though as I said I have no idea about the field lol.
The right mirror (or left in right driving cars) is absurdly inefficient. But the mirror *has* to be there to minimize blindspot.
The only benefit I can see to having information all over the screen is the habit of knowing where to look. Oh I wanna see team health bars/info, look left. But the same habit applies to knowing what section of the screen that is, and the landmarks of the screen.
It just seems really overly simplistic to think that we have to be as broad as putting shit all over the screen when the majority of UIs aren't even designed that way anymore and we easily parse individual segments. Every single popular UI for WoW put all the shit in the middle. Procs, in the middle. UI in the middle. DBM notifications in the middle. Google a screenshot. Everybody thought the default one sucked.
HotS puts everything middle bottom (and a big ass character portrait I hate, but #casualgame), and the scoreline top. You know why? Map design. Every single map in HotS is Right-Left.
DotA2 is the way it is pretty much solely because people played All-Stars and WC3 for so long that changing it would go over much worse than Riot's has. Valve cares much more about parity.
SC2 is mostly respectful of Brood War's for the same reason. But take a look at the spectator UI.
I played wow and I don't remember any good custom UI having every single piece of info on one block. You typically did a "circle" or rectangle where each corner had certain type of info as the focal point. Like when I was raid healing the primary tanks wouldn't be in the same location as the rest of the raid, they'd be slightly off the corner in the center with DBM being below that. Don't really know why you saying everything was in the middle, it was not on the corners of your screen but it wasn't all at the exact same location in the middle area. IU mean you could do that if you wanted as WoW was completely customizable but from my Raiding days as a healer I didn't like that setup. Having stuff slightly off from each other made it so any huge "wtf" moment was easier to spot.
You obviously can't do that in League as you actually need to see your screen lol. I'd be fine if they just took that info from the bottom and spread it out a bit. Don't have to spread it completely around the screen but having so much info in such a small place is just a bit arg.
On July 29 2015 04:42 Numy wrote: Would we? I don't really know much about the field but just from a purely layman's POV it feels like putting all the information at one point means that there's a lot of information there that I don't want to see that makes it harder to quickly get the information I do want to see. Having key information around the main focus instead of at one singular point means that each piece of information is easier to quickly digest. Our brain could work completely different to this though as I said I have no idea about the field lol.
The right mirror (or left in right driving cars) is absurdly inefficient. But the mirror *has* to be there to minimize blindspot.
Out of curiosity, what is the extent of your driving experience?
On July 29 2015 04:44 nafta wrote: It honestly baffles me that there are still people saying it is good/sux w/e instead of just everyone agreeing we need customization.
The answer to all UI issues is not "let's make this an option for the user to decide": http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000059.html This is especially problematic here because users demanding customization are obviously more vocal than users who are happy with how it is now.
The vast majority of the "PLS LET ME CUSTOMIZE" complaints right now are basically demands to restore legacy HUD functionality, and that's a waste of time. The real question is, for someone new to League, who has no bias towards the old HUD, what does that person want as far as customization?
As an example, let's look at HUD scaling. Should there be limits on HUD scaling? People make fun of competitive integrity as a proffered excuse, but it's a little shitty if your lane opponent has an advantage over you because he has better than 20/20 vision and can read extremely small text and therefore has a super teeny squint-o-vision HUD that allows him to see more of the battlefield. Maybe some HUD scaling is a good idea, but where do you draw the lines? Does it really matter that you can't make the HUD 5x as big as it is now?
It's a customizable UI, raider doing the highest level stuff, not a healer. Healers skew things because player bars are arguably more important than seeing where the fuck you are and you can't really shrink them in that game. Where's all his important shit?
Now, I'd still argue for being able to move and swap frames. But anyone arguing this UI is broadly terrible (again, lots of little problems they're working on) is ignoring a fuckton of evidence.
The real question is, for someone new to League, who has no bias towards the old HUD, what does that person want as far as customization?
On July 29 2015 04:44 nafta wrote: It honestly baffles me that there are still people saying it is good/sux w/e instead of just everyone agreeing we need customization.
The answer to all UI issues is not "let's make this an option for the user to decide": http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000059.html This is especially problematic here because users demanding customization are obviously more vocal than users who are happy with how it is now.
The vast majority of the "PLS LET ME CUSTOMIZE" complaints right now are basically demands to restore legacy HUD functionality, and that's a waste of time. The real question is, for someone new to League, who has no bias towards the old HUD, what does that person want as far as customization?
I genuinely don't understand your point.If this is the base and they let us customize how is it inferior to what we have now in any way?
Oh yeah right I forgot fuck everyone who doesn't agree with me.
Fun fact about that FF14 youtube video the person made his hud like that it isn't the base for all users .
It's a customizable UI, raider doing the highest level stuff, not a healer. Healers skew things because player bars are arguably more important than seeing where the fuck you are and you can't really shrink them in that game. Where's all his important shit?
Now, I'd still argue for being able to move and swap frames. But anyone arguing this UI is broadly terrible (again, lots of little problems they're working on) is ignoring a fuckton of evidence.
On July 29 2015 04:44 nafta wrote: It honestly baffles me that there are still people saying it is good/sux w/e instead of just everyone agreeing we need customization.
The answer to all UI issues is not "let's make this an option for the user to decide": http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000059.html This is especially problematic here because users demanding customization are obviously more vocal than users who are happy with how it is now.
The vast majority of the "PLS LET ME CUSTOMIZE" complaints right now are basically demands to restore legacy HUD functionality, and that's a waste of time. The real question is, for someone new to League, who has no bias towards the old HUD, what does that person want as far as customization?
I genuinely don't understand your point.If this is the base and they let us customize how is it inferior to what we have now in any way?
Oh yeah right I forgot fuck everyone who doesn't agree with me.
Fun fact about that FF14 youtube video the person made his hud like that it isn't the base for all users .
You're operating from the premise that customization is by definition good: if there's a dispute over how the HUD should be, it should just be a menu option and there's no downside to doing that. This is a commonly-believed misconception by non-designers and bad designers, and for reasons why you shouldn't do that, you should read the article I linked, or this one, or this one.
A successful UI is not one that bombards you with questions about how you want to customize every possible detail; it gives you a few limited customization options but otherwise "makes those decisions" for you. Think about how many people complained to Facebook that users should be able to customize their profile pages like on Myspace.
On July 29 2015 04:44 nafta wrote: It honestly baffles me that there are still people saying it is good/sux w/e instead of just everyone agreeing we need customization.
The answer to all UI issues is not "let's make this an option for the user to decide": http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000059.html This is especially problematic here because users demanding customization are obviously more vocal than users who are happy with how it is now.
The vast majority of the "PLS LET ME CUSTOMIZE" complaints right now are basically demands to restore legacy HUD functionality, and that's a waste of time. The real question is, for someone new to League, who has no bias towards the old HUD, what does that person want as far as customization?
I genuinely don't understand your point.If this is the base and they let us customize how is it inferior to what we have now in any way?
Oh yeah right I forgot fuck everyone who doesn't agree with me.
Fun fact about that FF14 youtube video the person made his hud like that it isn't the base for all users .
You're operating from the premise that customization is by definition good: if there's a dispute over how the HUD should be, it should just be a menu option and there's no downside to doing that. This is a commonly-believed misconception by non-designers and bad designers, and for reasons why you shouldn't do that, you should read the article I linked, or this one, or this one.
A successful UI is not one that bombards you with questions about how you want to customize every possible detail; it gives you a few limited customization options but otherwise "makes those decisions" for you. Think about how many people complained to Facebook that users should be able to customize their profile pages like on Myspace.
Inevitably, you are going to think of a long list of intelligent, defensible reasons why each of these options is absolutely, positively essential. Don't bother. I know. Each additional choice makes complete sense until you find yourself explaining to your uncle that he has to choose between 15 different ways to turn off a laptop.
This quote explains exactly what I hate about the way riot are going for this.This is aimed at only a part of playerbase and completely ignores another part.Just because a lot of people who don't give a shit about this stuff exist doesn't mean everyone who does should be screwed over too.
I get the idea "make everything as simple as possible so our retarded userbase understands it" but hey maybe for once the other part of the playerbase gets some love too?Blizzard is doing the same "people can't handle more than 9 deck slots" which is about as stupid.
I mean people think rivington is a good caster.That says pretty much everything you need to know about most of the playerbase.
On July 29 2015 04:44 nafta wrote: It honestly baffles me that there are still people saying it is good/sux w/e instead of just everyone agreeing we need customization.
The answer to all UI issues is not "let's make this an option for the user to decide": http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000059.html This is especially problematic here because users demanding customization are obviously more vocal than users who are happy with how it is now.
The vast majority of the "PLS LET ME CUSTOMIZE" complaints right now are basically demands to restore legacy HUD functionality, and that's a waste of time. The real question is, for someone new to League, who has no bias towards the old HUD, what does that person want as far as customization?
I genuinely don't understand your point.If this is the base and they let us customize how is it inferior to what we have now in any way?
Oh yeah right I forgot fuck everyone who doesn't agree with me.
Fun fact about that FF14 youtube video the person made his hud like that it isn't the base for all users .
You're operating from the premise that customization is by definition good: if there's a dispute over how the HUD should be, it should just be a menu option and there's no downside to doing that. This is a commonly-believed misconception by non-designers and bad designers, and for reasons why you shouldn't do that, you should read the article I linked, or this one, or this one.
A successful UI is not one that bombards you with questions about how you want to customize every possible detail; it gives you a few limited customization options but otherwise "makes those decisions" for you. Think about how many people complained to Facebook that users should be able to customize their profile pages like on Myspace.
That is totally fine. The problem is the current HUD is basically "slick" but not functional if you are trying to be "quick". I don't mind if there are limited options, given those options being good. The Observer interface is well balanced. Those graphics the krndamaandsan posted basically show what my problem with the new UI is.
In a couple months, nobody will care. It's not quick because you don't know where things are. Not because you should, but because it's new. A hud is like a new pair of boots, you gotta break 'em in a bit.
On July 29 2015 04:44 nafta wrote: It honestly baffles me that there are still people saying it is good/sux w/e instead of just everyone agreeing we need customization.
The answer to all UI issues is not "let's make this an option for the user to decide": http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000059.html This is especially problematic here because users demanding customization are obviously more vocal than users who are happy with how it is now.
The vast majority of the "PLS LET ME CUSTOMIZE" complaints right now are basically demands to restore legacy HUD functionality, and that's a waste of time. The real question is, for someone new to League, who has no bias towards the old HUD, what does that person want as far as customization?
I genuinely don't understand your point.If this is the base and they let us customize how is it inferior to what we have now in any way?
Oh yeah right I forgot fuck everyone who doesn't agree with me.
Fun fact about that FF14 youtube video the person made his hud like that it isn't the base for all users .
You're operating from the premise that customization is by definition good: if there's a dispute over how the HUD should be, it should just be a menu option and there's no downside to doing that. This is a commonly-believed misconception by non-designers and bad designers, and for reasons why you shouldn't do that, you should read the article I linked, or this one, or this one.
A successful UI is not one that bombards you with questions about how you want to customize every possible detail; it gives you a few limited customization options but otherwise "makes those decisions" for you. Think about how many people complained to Facebook that users should be able to customize their profile pages like on Myspace.
That is totally fine. The problem is the current HUD is basically "slick" but not functional if you are trying to be "quick". I don't mind if there are limited options, given those options being good. The Observer interface is well balanced. Those graphics the krndamaandsan posted basically show what my problem with the new UI is.
HotS also benefits from a lot of "missing" features. There's no items, so inventories don't need to be shown. Teams level together, so no xp. Don't farm creeps(afaik) so there's no cs tracker. I see 0 stats about a PC other than HP/MP/Doubloons. Is there ability ranks in this game other than unlocked/locked? Cause I can't tell. etc.
Of course a hud is going to look nicer when it has less elements to display. Try to template this for League and you're going to run into issues.
I don't think the HUD comparisons to WoW are really fair. WoW has a LOT more data to display and a lot less importance on what is actually happening because so long as you have big DBM warnings you'll be fine.
I do think customization is important, because I would like to A. Increase minimap size by 20% B. Decrease size of everything else by about 50% C. Disable teammate minicons unless I play Shen, and show me ulti timers on Tab. I won't be checking ulti-timers when I'm in the middle of a fight, and otherwise I don't really care.
On July 29 2015 06:25 Gahlo wrote: In a couple months, nobody will care. It's not quick because you don't know where things are. Not because you should, but because it's new. A hud is like a new pair of boots, you gotta break 'em in a bit.
On July 29 2015 04:44 nafta wrote: It honestly baffles me that there are still people saying it is good/sux w/e instead of just everyone agreeing we need customization.
The answer to all UI issues is not "let's make this an option for the user to decide": http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000059.html This is especially problematic here because users demanding customization are obviously more vocal than users who are happy with how it is now.
The vast majority of the "PLS LET ME CUSTOMIZE" complaints right now are basically demands to restore legacy HUD functionality, and that's a waste of time. The real question is, for someone new to League, who has no bias towards the old HUD, what does that person want as far as customization?
I genuinely don't understand your point.If this is the base and they let us customize how is it inferior to what we have now in any way?
Oh yeah right I forgot fuck everyone who doesn't agree with me.
Fun fact about that FF14 youtube video the person made his hud like that it isn't the base for all users .
You're operating from the premise that customization is by definition good: if there's a dispute over how the HUD should be, it should just be a menu option and there's no downside to doing that. This is a commonly-believed misconception by non-designers and bad designers, and for reasons why you shouldn't do that, you should read the article I linked, or this one, or this one.
A successful UI is not one that bombards you with questions about how you want to customize every possible detail; it gives you a few limited customization options but otherwise "makes those decisions" for you. Think about how many people complained to Facebook that users should be able to customize their profile pages like on Myspace.
That is totally fine. The problem is the current HUD is basically "slick" but not functional if you are trying to be "quick". I don't mind if there are limited options, given those options being good. The Observer interface is well balanced. Those graphics the krndamaandsan posted basically show what my problem with the new UI is.
HotS also benefits from a lot of "missing" features. There's no items, so inventories don't need to be shown. Teams level together, so no xp. Don't farm creeps(afaik) so there's no cs tracker. I see 0 stats about a PC other than HP/MP/Doubloons. Is there ability ranks in this game other than unlocked/locked? Cause I can't tell. etc.
Of course a hud is going to look nicer when it has less elements to display. Try to template this for League and you're going to run into issues.
That was actually kind of my point, less elements, but still more spread out. Its a lot easier for me than the new LOL UI even though I rarely play HOTS.
Honestly, if they transplanted the allies back to the left, and didn't make you press TAB to show the timers at the top of the screen the layout would make sense. The towers and kills probably also could be there, then the tab screen is also simplified and I don't have so much "wasted" space at the top of the screen.
While they're at customization (they won't be) they should make items easier to manage and drag. Currently it's a pain to drag so I don't reduce the UI size.
Also, as an aside, by shoving everything on the bottom they just exacerbated the traditional red-blue skillshot problem (particularly because you need to increase HUD size compared to the old HUD).
On July 29 2015 07:32 cLutZ wrote: Also, as an aside, by shoving everything on the bottom they just exacerbated the traditional red-blue skillshot problem (particularly because you need to increase HUD size compared to the old HUD).
That's why they shifted everything out of the bottom left, because that's where the biggest issue with the camera angle is center.
I don't think that the new HUD is absolutely god awful, terrible after playing with it for a bit. But there are a few basic things that I want.
1. I want to be able to see the timers without constantly having to press a button. 2. I want to be able to individually size different things (spells/items, mini-map, score, timers, allies etc.) 3. I want to be able to individually more around things (spells/items, mini-mapt, score, timers, allies, etc.) 4. I want to have a set of colors that doesn't make me want to vomit every time I play. Just give players 2-3 color schemes and let them pick the one they like the best.
I don't think that any of this is actually that hard to do. IIRC Smite pretty much does this.
In regards to WoW Raiding UI, I actually used a variety of mods so I could have the key spells watermarked onto the screen and didn't really have any bars whatsoever. It was far easier to see who was fucking up to see who needed to improve or get booted or send a warning. Plus, when I was healing it was really important to have most high health targets ignored while lower health were completely opaque; that way I knew which rotation of heals I had available to cover the group or in addition to my specific targets. Since I was druid heals, it was really easy to keep things up and let the other worse geared/less mana efficient guys save their heals. Plus it was the best way to be notified of a variety of proc's which brought skills back up to be available.
On July 29 2015 07:32 cLutZ wrote: Also, as an aside, by shoving everything on the bottom they just exacerbated the traditional red-blue skillshot problem (particularly because you need to increase HUD size compared to the old HUD).
That's why they shifted everything out of the bottom left, because that's where the biggest issue with the camera angle is center.
Sure, which is fine and as far as i can see no one is really complaining about[though i really dislike the XP bar, its totally fine to have thinner HP/Mana to make way for Xp]. But in doing so they now they have the same problem in the river. By moving the character portraits/info they took away what was usable space and replaced it with dead space. Non-corner edges see the least use since the map is laid out as an X. Anything which can "lay flat" or horizontally should ideally be moved into those areas. And well, we leave three of those areas open in favor of sticking everything onto the map, making that area huge
Additionally, information should not be "clumped" in the same space. Because stuff that is clumped in the same space is hard to make out. The map and character icons and cs/kills etc are not the same type of information (you want the map all the time, and consistent, you want character icons to be easy to differentiate for clicking, you want overall game info sparingly) and so putting them together makes all three harder to use. Why can we have game time and ping (also they reversed the ping visual cue so that its backwards! full bars is now good rather than bad) in the top right but not the kill information?
edit: Basically they say they want to make it more usable. But you don't do that by putting all the information in the same space. Because then, when i am answering the x number of questions that i have before i can make an answer i have to spend time differentiating UI elements rather than processing the information.
So while they did a lot of good (you can now reorganize the big team comparison screen so that you can have the same order each time for top/support/ad etc! Items are organized in order of cost so you see completed and big items first, everything reads consistent left/right rather than a symmetric organization which reverses the order in which you process info depending on which team is looking at it, we have a tower count without doing it manually)
It's a customizable UI, raider doing the highest level stuff, not a healer. Healers skew things because player bars are arguably more important than seeing where the fuck you are and you can't really shrink them in that game. Where's all his important shit?
Now, I'd still argue for being able to move and swap frames. But anyone arguing this UI is broadly terrible (again, lots of little problems they're working on) is ignoring a fuckton of evidence.
The real question is, for someone new to League, who has no bias towards the old HUD, what does that person want as far as customization?
Ex-motherfuckin-actly.
In WoW, if you are not a healer, all that stuff is not "important shit".
His focus target, front-right. His CDs, front and center. Buffs, front and center. HP and TP, front and center.
On July 29 2015 07:44 geript wrote: I don't think that the new HUD is absolutely god awful, terrible after playing with it for a bit. But there are a few basic things that I want.
1. I want to be able to see the timers without constantly having to press a button.
4. I want to have a set of colors that doesn't make me want to vomit every time I play. Just give players 2-3 color schemes and let them pick the one they like the best.
1: You can hit O instead of holding Tab, same as before. 4: Refer to this thread.
On July 29 2015 07:32 cLutZ wrote: Also, as an aside, by shoving everything on the bottom they just exacerbated the traditional red-blue skillshot problem (particularly because you need to increase HUD size compared to the old HUD).
they deliberately left the bottom left and top right completely empty for just this reason...
On July 29 2015 07:32 cLutZ wrote: Also, as an aside, by shoving everything on the bottom they just exacerbated the traditional red-blue skillshot problem (particularly because you need to increase HUD size compared to the old HUD).
they deliberately left the bottom left and top right completely empty for just this reason...
Which was smart, but there are parts of the game besides laning phase.
Kind of sad, the nerfs to tank ekko. Not gonna make assassin ekko good.
It was funny to read their intent when they made him....a utility assassin so even if he can't one shot you he has utility! Herp durp, why would you build damage on him with that much utility?
I've been spamming the shit out of him full tank, its broken strong.
Dive in and try to kill someone then run away?
or
Insane initiation, a fucking 80% slow for THREE SECONDS you can apply to every member of their team with 1-2 autos, plus a 60% RANGED AOE slow to gap close, and a get out of jail free card ult if they do manage to do 10 thousand damage to you......plus you can still delete anyone below 30% HP.
PROTIP: Run him with AD/Ar/CDR/AS with ad masteries, way better jungle clear and damage since you aren't going to be building any AP, and just sit on peoples faces autoing.
On July 29 2015 13:42 sob3k wrote: Kind of sad, the nerfs to tank ekko. Not gonna make assassin ekko good.
It was funny to read their intent when they made him....a utility assassin so even if he can't one shot you he has utility! Herp durp, why would you build damage on him with that much utility?
I've been spamming the shit out of him full tank, its broken strong.
Dive in and try to kill someone then run away?
or
Insane initiation, a fucking 80% slow for THREE SECONDS you can apply to every member of their team with 1-2 autos, plus a 60% RANGED AOE slow to gap close, and a get out of jail free card ult if they do manage to do 10 thousand damage to you......plus you can still delete anyone below 30% HP.
PROTIP: Run him with AD/Ar/CDR/AS with ad masteries, way better jungle clear and damage since you aren't going to be building any AP, and just sit on peoples faces autoing.
AD runes suck if you have no AD ratios. The 5% missing health looks promising but if its average case is 2.5% I'm not impressed. And his clears aren't great.
On July 29 2015 13:42 sob3k wrote: Kind of sad, the nerfs to tank ekko. Not gonna make assassin ekko good.
It was funny to read their intent when they made him....a utility assassin so even if he can't one shot you he has utility! Herp durp, why would you build damage on him with that much utility?
I've been spamming the shit out of him full tank, its broken strong.
Dive in and try to kill someone then run away?
or
Insane initiation, a fucking 80% slow for THREE SECONDS you can apply to every member of their team with 1-2 autos, plus a 60% RANGED AOE slow to gap close, and a get out of jail free card ult if they do manage to do 10 thousand damage to you......plus you can still delete anyone below 30% HP.
PROTIP: Run him with AD/Ar/CDR/AS with ad masteries, way better jungle clear and damage since you aren't going to be building any AP, and just sit on peoples faces autoing.
Even with 5.15 tentative tank Ekko nerfs for some god awful unknown reason it's really not that major. I don't think it necessarily cuts him out of meta. I've been thinking that we'll see him top more in response to poke and the Fizz-Maokai dilemma. He's great at shoving waves and getting CS. You can build boots second to try to deny waves with the constant shoving. He has poke, multiple forms of CC, mobility and strong dive. Plus he's really strong at skirmishing which always seems to be the fotm when it gets around to worlds. I think we'll see a few different assassins come back in vogue. Other than Kassadin I'm not sure who; probably the AP assassins though.
Balance aside, Riot has fucked up a couple champions design wise lately.
A utility assassin? You cannot actually be serious and think that would work without one always being better than the other.
Kalista has like 3 champion defining traits crammed onto one champ. 1. AA hopping, 2. Ally linking, 3. Rend. Entire kits could be built around these concepts, but they shoved all of them onto one.
Rek'Sai having everything a jungler could possibly want, while also being pretty brainless about it.
Don't forget to remove it before you patch though.It's not gonna fuck up your client but it won't let you uninstall it after it starts and it will do the good old check all files real slowly while making you wonder if you pc will survive for much longer from all the resource usage.
If you can use a custom HUD, I'd sure fucking like a custom HUD that tells me when my Darius ult will kill my enemy instead of leaving him with 50 HP.
Reading that thread, I think League just needs some new drama so that all those whiners can have an outlet for their bitching. We need some league mod to be "caught" signing NDAs or Ghostcrawler to write an ask.fm post that can be taken out of context, because reading this HUD drama is like re-living those cringey Facebook visual redesign complaints all over again.
After few plays I am starting to like the new HUD - I see two problems with it, though. Firstly map is blueish - it is really blurry and much less readable than odl minimap Secondly - why the fuck experience bar is in some form of curve? It is less readable than old solution.
If you can use a custom HUD, I'd sure fucking like a custom HUD that tells me when my Darius ult will kill my enemy instead of leaving him with 50 HP.
Reading that thread, I think League just needs some new drama so that all those whiners can have an outlet for their bitching. We need some league mod to be "caught" signing NDAs or Ghostcrawler to write an ask.fm post that can be taken out of context, because reading this HUD drama is like re-living those cringey Facebook visual redesign complaints all over again.
i doubt it, it isn't recreating the old hud, just loading it.
On July 30 2015 15:52 Slusher wrote: To be honest, I'm not sure how that GP/Draven trick is any good, I feel like you'd miss to much farm trying to stack it
Stack it before leaving base, go to lane with free stacks then just hit barrels randomly whenever you are close.
On July 30 2015 15:52 Slusher wrote: To be honest, I'm not sure how that GP/Draven trick is any good, I feel like you'd miss to much farm trying to stack it
Stack it before leaving base, go to lane with free stacks then just hit barrels randomly whenever you are close.
I like how you can get krakens by stealing enemy camps. It could make counterjunglers like Nunu or Shaco really strong depending on how much emphasis is on kraken count.
Also are people no longer playing smite top lane? Why?
if you fully upgerade the plundercrabs the damage is pretty hilarious, that said I also don't enjoy the game mode, feels mostly like the regular game only with blind pick and items I have no idea how to play around (because I don't know what they do)
On July 31 2015 01:51 Ansibled wrote: I played the new game mode once. Never again.
This is the worst one they've released IMO.
the new minions don't really do much
They probably do a lot more but I was expecting storm the fort from BW where eventually the minions would outnumber and outscale your team. Except there were way more upgrades for minions in storm the fort.
The matchmaker on the map is stupid. I won lane so hard I wasn't able to test out the new crit item because I never needed to teleport away from anyone. Hopefully someone was just duoing.
It's nice that they give you a list of items that are only available on this map so you don't need to make an item set just for the map.
The new flesh cleaver item is cute. Got it top on Jayce and stacked maybe 15 AD. I'm not the best at stacking it, but I don't think it's overpowered. It doesn't work on monsters so don't try it in the jungle.
New mode sucks balls. On another note that sucks balls I haven't been able to play Gangplank all day because of this retarded event. Fuck Riot for thinking lore is a good reason to disable a champion.
also the worst part is ppl just want to play meta shit so they can win and get their icons so it's blindpick with people wanting to play full meta holy moley how boring
also the gp/draven thing is pretty whatever they could leave it in really
1. The creep upgrades are basically unnoticable, I get absolutely no enjoyment from purchasing them. The only thing the weird creeps do is make last hitting obnoxious. Plus its a bother to keep track of them and keep buying them...when they have no visible effect. The whole idea is poor. At best, they are powerful and make any lead snowball significantly more than the base game, at worst they are insignificant or you purchase upgrades at parity with the enemy team, and they have no net effect. You can't switch them so there is no element of countering your opponents that made footmen and nexus wars type games fun.
2. The items are fun, but not really interesting enough to carry the mode....There is also a huge tryhard element that incentivizes building old item builds which are known to be strong, over trying the new weird items and maybe ending up getting crap. Plus the map is SR with positions and meta, so you may get into a game and be forced into a position where you can't even build the item you wanted to try.
3. You have to read fucking acres of text on both the items and the creeps....while playing the game. There isn't fucking time for that shit. The creep tooltips that give every creeps specials in a giant list is so fucking retarded.....after I've picked my creep I can't switch...so just tell me MY creeps special abilities.
On July 31 2015 05:33 Disengaged wrote: Most of the items are pretty bad.
I'm a fan of Dead Mans Plate though.
Nah most of the items look interesting. Even the flesh cleaver has great healing. By themselves they make the game interesting for me.
All 3 3k gold tomes are more interesting than morellonomicon which is 95% of the time bought just as a statstick and 5% of the time for grievous wounds.
On July 31 2015 05:33 Disengaged wrote: Most of the items are pretty bad.
I'm a fan of Dead Mans Plate though.
Nah most of the items look interesting. Even the flesh cleaver has great healing. By themselves they make the game interesting for me.
All 3 3k gold tomes are more interesting than morellonomicon which is 95% of the time bought just as a statstick and 5% of the time for grievous wounds.
it's literally 100 - 0%, back when Athenes was buff as fuck and Mundo was the shit ppl went athene's vs him
On July 31 2015 05:33 Disengaged wrote: Most of the items are pretty bad.
I'm a fan of Dead Mans Plate though.
Nah most of the items look interesting. Even the flesh cleaver has great healing. By themselves they make the game interesting for me.
All 3 3k gold tomes are more interesting than morellonomicon which is 95% of the time bought just as a statstick and 5% of the time for grievous wounds.
it's literally 100 - 0%, back when Athenes was buff as fuck and Mundo was the shit ppl went athene's vs him
Mirage Blade's probably the perfect ADC first item. The other two AD items feel a bit undertuned.
Teleport boots are hilarious. Trickster's Glass is less cool than it sounds, as is the River staff.
I wish the support item was actually in the base game. Really cool idea for lanes that want to just trade all the time. A bit weak on stats though.
Dead Man's Plate is great. The chase potential on a tank is interesting. Puppeteer has bad stats and requires way too much to setup to be fun.
The three big AP items are all really good. Like, ridiculously-overtuned efficient and a ton of use. A 100 AP item that good at sieging would be incredible in the base game.
On July 31 2015 05:33 Disengaged wrote: Most of the items are pretty bad.
I'm a fan of Dead Mans Plate though.
Nah most of the items look interesting. Even the flesh cleaver has great healing. By themselves they make the game interesting for me.
All 3 3k gold tomes are more interesting than morellonomicon which is 95% of the time bought just as a statstick and 5% of the time for grievous wounds.
it's literally 100 - 0%, back when Athenes was buff as fuck and Mundo was the shit ppl went athene's vs him
He's talking about now, though.
the fact that nobody went morello when mundo was fotm with s4 athenes (s3 i'll give a pass) tells me 0%
(keep in mind s4 Athene's was 25 less ap but had the buff mr)
Typhoon claws procs all 3 autos at once. The description is bad according to the wiki. So now instead of Sated, you can auto 3 creeps as Irelia, Q to a low enemy creep, press W, and auto an enemy champion once for 225 true damage and 78 heal in .4 seconds.
The river item looks like it'll help you if you spend a lot of time in the river.
Martyr's Gambit looks like it could save your ADC during that fight where if he gets popped by Zed you lose the game, and if he doesn't get popped, you win the game.
honestly if they bring GP back as was after a couple days this whole 'death' thing is lame and a big missed opportunity, they shoulda just full on killed him and had the remake be his first mate or something, thus explaining the change of skills.
you could even pull a beerfest and have it be his twin brother who nobody knew he had lol.
if they do it as I expect they'll do it, it just comes off as a lame retcon and oldschool comic readers like myself have had enough of that garbage
I feel the opposite, Gangplank is GANGPLANK, you don't get to be pirate king if something like a mere explosion can kill you, he eats some oranges and is k. He's the scrappiest pirate ever to sail the seas and you can't kill him. He is the pirate king, replacing him with "some other pirate", I mean come on.
I hope it's something a little more exciting than the obvious 'we didn't find his body, so of course he's alive.' Do some spooky shit with somebody cool in the lore, Shadow Isles, Ekko, Tahm Kench. Fuck, I don't know, I'm not the writer, but there's a lot of potential.
Welcome to TeamLiquid, where every new game mode is the worst game mode ever and Rito pls.
On July 31 2015 05:05 sob3k wrote: 2. The items are fun, but not really interesting enough to carry the mode....There is also a huge tryhard element that incentivizes building old item builds which are known to be strong, over trying the new weird items and maybe ending up getting crap.
You are playing with and/or against absolute idiots if they are "tryharding" yet not building any of the new items. Teleport boot enchant? Strictly superior Morello's? Flesheater?
I think the whole community was pretty happy with the winter king event, as well as the all for one, doombots and ultra rapid fire modes.
edit: problem with this new mode I think is that you get a separate currency for the brawlers so there's no choices involved, sooner or later you get all the brawlers and all the upgrades. Much more interesting if you could spend your own gold for som REALLY powerful minions, like sending a raidboss down a lane.
Would also be alot more fun if you could choose to buy more and more of whatever unit you want, creating waves of like 40 razorfins lategame :p
Poro King was fun because there was a bunch of tension in trying to get to summon the King first and just have it super siege through all the turrets. URF was fun because no mana costs and 80% CDR means you can take some champions who have a kit that is powerful but limited by their CDs and just wreck face. Doombots were fun because it was similar to a 'Nintendo Hard' feel, where it was challenging but not in a frustrating way (and you could bug the AIs out super easy in that mode).
The issue with Brawlers is the currency like Osmoses said; given enough time you get all the items and upgrades and then the game sort of devolves into a limited form of Dota 2 of OP items letting you do stupid shit you shouldn't be able to do.
On July 31 2015 06:40 obesechicken13 wrote: Typhoon claws procs all 3 autos at once. The description is bad according to the wiki. So now instead of Sated, you can auto 3 creeps as Irelia, Q to a low enemy creep, press W, and auto an enemy champion once for 225 true damage and 78 heal in .4 seconds.
The river item looks like it'll help you if you spend a lot of time in the river.
Martyr's Gambit looks like it could save your ADC during that fight where if he gets popped by Zed you lose the game, and if he doesn't get popped, you win the game.
Yeah, well, its not at once, but its in the space of one auto...wiki says 7.5 attack speed.
In case any of you were thinking about playing Devourer/Typhoon onhit frenzy jungle Irelia.....don't, because once you get sated it turns off your typhoon blade, it won't proc anymore. LAAAAAME
On July 31 2015 05:33 Disengaged wrote: Most of the items are pretty bad.
I'm a fan of Dead Mans Plate though.
Nah most of the items look interesting. Even the flesh cleaver has great healing. By themselves they make the game interesting for me.
All 3 3k gold tomes are more interesting than morellonomicon which is 95% of the time bought just as a statstick and 5% of the time for grievous wounds.
it's literally 100 - 0%, back when Athenes was buff as fuck and Mundo was the shit ppl went athene's vs him
He's talking about now, though.
the fact that nobody went morello when mundo was fotm with s4 athenes (s3 i'll give a pass) tells me 0%
(keep in mind s4 Athene's was 25 less ap but had the buff mr)
Which, once again, is superfluous to the topic. It doesn't matter how old Athenes stacks up to current Morellos when comparing Morellos to the BMB variants.
Morellos wasn't bought when Mundo was in the top meta because a) Athenes gave you more bang for your buck and b) mages weren't supposed to deal with him anyway. His reliance on an MR item, and proclivity for stacking health, plus junglers going around with a Locket in their Pocket made him an abysmal target - regen or not.
On July 31 2015 06:47 Osmoses wrote: Never mind mundo, why do I see more and more nautilus top all of a sudden? And why the hell is is so damn strong? :p
Naut allows people to build full tank and still deal stupid damage. He's pretty braindead to play as long as you can land hooks. Riptide is beyond broken.
On July 31 2015 06:52 Osmoses wrote: I feel the opposite, Gangplank is GANGPLANK, you don't get to be pirate king if something like a mere explosion can kill you, he eats some oranges and is k. He's the scrappiest pirate ever to sail the seas and you can't kill him. He is the pirate king, replacing him with "some other pirate", I mean come on.
I mean, MF specifically say "find the body." Until it's confirmed, he ain't dead.
On July 31 2015 05:05 sob3k wrote: 2. The items are fun, but not really interesting enough to carry the mode....There is also a huge tryhard element that incentivizes building old item builds which are known to be strong, over trying the new weird items and maybe ending up getting crap.
You are playing with and/or against absolute idiots if they are "tryharding" yet not building any of the new items. Teleport boot enchant? Strictly superior Morello's? Flesheater?
There are some great items but most of the really fun ones aren't as good (puppeteer and trickster), and the ones that are really good aren't that interesting (flesh, mirage). At any rate buying one weird item is not fun enough to carry an entire game.
Its not terrible, its just I feel they missed a lot of opportunities.
On July 31 2015 05:05 sob3k wrote: New mode is just not really fun.
3. You have to read fucking acres of text on both the items and the creeps....while playing the game. There isn't fucking time for that shit. The creep tooltips that give every creeps specials in a giant list is so fucking retarded.....after I've picked my creep I can't switch...so just tell me MY creeps special abilities.
It really just a mess.
Don't blame the game mode for this. All the info was available on the board and they made a news about them, people just had to read that before starting the mode, they had two whole weeks to do it. But people are too fucking lazy, and then they keep bitching.
There's been almost half a dozen questions asked here that could have been resolved with a cursory glance over the board thread, or by reading the FAQ that's even linked in the icons' screen.
On July 31 2015 05:33 Disengaged wrote: Most of the items are pretty bad.
I'm a fan of Dead Mans Plate though.
Nah most of the items look interesting. Even the flesh cleaver has great healing. By themselves they make the game interesting for me.
All 3 3k gold tomes are more interesting than morellonomicon which is 95% of the time bought just as a statstick and 5% of the time for grievous wounds.
it's literally 100 - 0%, back when Athenes was buff as fuck and Mundo was the shit ppl went athene's vs him
He's talking about now, though.
the fact that nobody went morello when mundo was fotm with s4 athenes (s3 i'll give a pass) tells me 0%
(keep in mind s4 Athene's was 25 less ap but had the buff mr)
Which, once again, is superfluous to the topic. It doesn't matter how old Athenes stacks up to current Morellos when comparing Morellos to the BMB variants.
Morellos wasn't bought when Mundo was in the top meta because a) Athenes gave you more bang for your buck and b) mages weren't supposed to deal with him anyway. His reliance on an MR item, and proclivity for stacking health, plus junglers going around with a Locket in their Pocket .
Morellos has not changed since that time period, and when you add the grevious wounds in an applicable situation i would argue s4 Athene's was not 'more bang for your buck'. I refuse to believe that players have changed their minds instead of just buying it because athene's got nerfed.
Locket as a point is just intentionally clouding the issue, locket is as good then as it is now and morello has had 25 more ap since s4 pre season anyway so the only advantage athene's has provided in the meantime is self defense and mana, qualities irrelevant to enemy defense.
I'm not sure how one is supposed to draw conclusions on anything if historical precident is considered 'superfluous '
Every regen item got changed around pre-season 5. Athene's passive used to give *much* more mana. Morello didn't keep up, so it was very rarely bought, especially with shit like Ziggs/Xerath as the primary buyers.
Morello had 75 AP before I even played the game. It got marginally increased to 80 in the middle of season 4 when they were trying to curtail mana regen, before they changed Mana Font.
Athene's has had 60 AP since pre-season 3. It was popular because Mana Font, which is now mostly dead.
Edit: This is all super irrelevant to the BMB regen items, because they're all at the 3k gold/100 AP tier with amazing passives and the same amount of regen/cdr as Morello's. A base Morello's offers you basically nothing in comparison, and Athene's is pretty shit atm anyway.
I think Riot could tone down the siege/pox passives a little, shift some of the CDR off on to other items, and replace Morello with them pretty easily, hilariously. Fuck Morellonomicon.
On July 31 2015 05:33 Disengaged wrote: Most of the items are pretty bad.
I'm a fan of Dead Mans Plate though.
Nah most of the items look interesting. Even the flesh cleaver has great healing. By themselves they make the game interesting for me.
All 3 3k gold tomes are more interesting than morellonomicon which is 95% of the time bought just as a statstick and 5% of the time for grievous wounds.
it's literally 100 - 0%, back when Athenes was buff as fuck and Mundo was the shit ppl went athene's vs him
He's talking about now, though.
the fact that nobody went morello when mundo was fotm with s4 athenes (s3 i'll give a pass) tells me 0%
(keep in mind s4 Athene's was 25 less ap but had the buff mr)
Which, once again, is superfluous to the topic. It doesn't matter how old Athenes stacks up to current Morellos when comparing Morellos to the BMB variants.
Morellos wasn't bought when Mundo was in the top meta because a) Athenes gave you more bang for your buck and b) mages weren't supposed to deal with him anyway. His reliance on an MR item, and proclivity for stacking health, plus junglers going around with a Locket in their Pocket .
Morellos has not changed since that time period, and when you add the grevious wounds in an applicable situation i would argue s4 Athene's was not 'more bang for your buck'. I refuse to believe that players have changed their minds instead of just buying it because athene's got nerfed.
Locket as a point is just intentionally clouding the issue, locket is as good then as it is now and morello has had 25 more ap since s4 pre season anyway so the only advantage athene's has provided in the meantime is self defense and mana, qualities irrelevant to enemy defense.
I'm not sure how one is supposed to draw conclusions on anything if historical precident is considered 'superfluous '
Athenes has been buffed twice since 4.21. Morellos has been nerfed twice since 4.20. Pre 4.10, Athene's was crazy good because it still gave truckloads of mana, a solid amount of AP, and enough MR to literally change matchup balance along with the CDR. Building it was 100% worth spending the extra gold. But then the MR nerf came and that hurt it's laning, which delayed the completion even more, which further hurt build timing.
Locket is not clouding the issue. You're talking about the state of items back then now, so what Locket does now is of 0 importance. It still added another layer of "This 4k HP tank just got another 800magic EHP for being around his jungler that hasn't even popped the locket yet." on why the AP shouldn't be going after Mundo in the firs place.
The issue is that you're discussing the buyability of an item now with the state of it's competitor from about a year ago. The precedent back then was that Morello's wasn't a good item in it's general slot and the 1 competitive target that fits the niche it exists for wasn't a target you wanted to go after. While in the current state Athene's sucks. It's taken so many nerfs that unless a champion is super mana hungry like Azir, it isn't worth buying. That's why Morellos is bought the vast majority of the time right now. It's a quick fix where you don't have to pay for a niche purpose you don't need.
After having played a few patches with snowball out on ARAM, I think the worst thing it does is it makes Galio nearly impossible to deal with, especially if you don't have an ADC. If he ever lands it on anyone, it's an instant 5 man ult. And since merc treads don't let you walk out of it before its done anymore, you're taking full damage without QSS (unless you happened to take cleanse in ARAM). The only real downside to him before is that without flash it was hard to ult properly.
Annie, Alistar, and Amumu are pretty high up on the "champions made completely obnoxious by snowball in ARAM" list too.
If you receive a 5-man Galio ult in ARAMs, it's on you. Galio initiating with it isn't that different from Fiddle waiting for a teamfight to be committed before ulting in.
Depends, Q can be useful in some match-ups/comps (either to catch up, or to dodge). Stats-wise the augments aren't actually worth it till level 11-13 iirc? The augmented abilities provide most of the value early on, so weight the speed-up from Q against something like a codex (and no, even when they rush augment2 people stay on boots1, they rarely care about sorcs it seems like).
On July 31 2015 09:32 zer0das wrote: After having played a few patches with snowball out on ARAM, I think the worst thing it does is it makes Galio nearly impossible to deal with, especially if you don't have an ADC. If he ever lands it on anyone, it's an instant 5 man ult. And since merc treads don't let you walk out of it before its done anymore, you're taking full damage without QSS (unless you happened to take cleanse in ARAM). The only real downside to him before is that without flash it was hard to ult properly.
Annie, Alistar, and Amumu are pretty high up on the "champions made completely obnoxious by snowball in ARAM" list too.
On July 31 2015 09:50 Alaric wrote: If you receive a 5-man Galio ult in ARAMs, it's on you. Galio initiating with it isn't that different from Fiddle waiting for a teamfight to be committed before ulting in.
I disagree, it's not similar at all. Fiddlesticks has to broadcast, Galio just flashes or snowballs in and you're all screwed because there's effectively no windup. You either preemptively flash or die if you can't deal with it via cleanse or QSS. Being spread out prevents 5 people from getting hit by it, but even 3 is enough to pretty much guarantee Galio's team wins the fight unless the Galio team was already at a large disadvantage. It's also not similar because Fiddle's CC isn't guaranteed, it's possible to CC or slow him as he arrives, or even just force him to Zhonyas so he can't fear/bounce his crows. Galio has to be completely interrupted to stop his CC, and very few champions have a way to do that without also getting pulled in by the taunt.
SR is different because there's actually sufficient room to spread out.
So it looks like if you kill the first target with Typhoon's blade's phantom hit, it switches targets to other nearby ones like Lucian's passive. Like you can expend the 3 autos on 3 different targets.
Also IDK why but the boot enchantment for TP is disabled. Maybe it was too strong or made splitpush too annoying?
On July 31 2015 06:47 Osmoses wrote: Never mind mundo, why do I see more and more nautilus top all of a sudden? And why the hell is is so damn strong? :p
Top because he is a meta compositional pick and doesn't have a bad laning phase. Because of this, LCS teams started picking him up as a flex pick; he could go top/jungle/support depending on the circumstances. Because LCS teams started playing him top, soloqueue started playing him top
On July 31 2015 10:16 cLutZ wrote: Im still confused why Viktor is not 100% LCS pick/ban. You can basically miss every lazer and be a serviceable champion.
Because he loses games.
In Season 5 he has a 46% ish win rate. In Season 5 Summer a 43% ish win rate. He has below 50% win rate in every regular season league except for the Spring LPL. In NA Summer LCS he has a 19% win rate in 21 games. In EU Summer LCS he has a 36% ish win rate in 22 games. In Summer LPL he has a 48.5% win rate in 68 played games. In Summer LCK he has a 45% win rate in 77 games.
Of all the games including playoff game and international competitions he only has a positive win rate in China at 51%. His global NA LCS win rate is 19.2%. His EU LCS win rate is 36%
The real question is probably "why is Vitkor picked if he just keeps losing" and the answer is probably that
1) He actually is decent against Azir. And Azir is another champion which is likely to be first picked.
2) He looks like he is valuable against a number of mids because he can still farm regardless of the matchup. So if you expect to get wrecked in the mid lane you can pick Viktor and hope to win the team fight phase from an opposing error. Unfortunately there are a lot better champions for this, like Kog'Maw, or Varus, or Orianna. [This also has the effect of pulling his win rate down, because worse teams are picking him. But at the same time, its still not a great pickup]
Viktor's fantastic because Sivir's fantastic and Kali was fantastic. People think Viktor's great in any old draft; they lose. But with those two and a proper draft, foreign concept in the west, yes, he (should be) 100% PB.
On July 31 2015 10:16 cLutZ wrote: Im still confused why Viktor is not 100% LCS pick/ban. You can basically miss every lazer and be a serviceable champion.
Because he loses games.
In Season 5 he has a 46% ish win rate. In Season 5 Summer a 43% ish win rate. He has below 50% win rate in every regular season league except for the Spring LPL. In NA Summer LCS he has a 19% win rate in 21 games. In EU Summer LCS he has a 36% ish win rate in 22 games. In Summer LPL he has a 48.5% win rate in 68 played games. In Summer LCK he has a 45% win rate in 77 games.
Of all the games including playoff game and international competitions he only has a positive win rate in China at 51%. His global NA LCS win rate is 19.2%. His EU LCS win rate is 36%
The real question is probably "why is Vitkor picked if he just keeps losing" and the answer is probably that
1) He actually is decent against Azir. And Azir is another champion which is likely to be first picked.
2) He looks like he is valuable against a number of mids because he can still farm regardless of the matchup. So if you expect to get wrecked in the mid lane you can pick Viktor and hope to win the team fight phase from an opposing error. Unfortunately there are a lot better champions for this, like Kog'Maw, or Varus, or Orianna. [This also has the effect of pulling his win rate down, because worse teams are picking him. But at the same time, its still not a great pickup]
I feel like this is an unsolvable mystery:
Why is this champion ridiculous when played by shitty Gold players, and Faker, but not anyone in between?
On July 31 2015 14:42 Caiada wrote: Viktor's fantastic because Sivir's fantastic and Kali was fantastic. People think Viktor's great in any old matchup; they lose.
Kalista has a 64% win rate in the summer. In the regular season that is 63% in Korea, 73% in China, 62% in NA and 61% in EU. Viktor has never been good against Kalista (she can jump out of his lasers and out of his W).
Sivir has a 56% win rate in the summer. Though i don't have any specific Viktor vs Sivir numbers(I don't want to search through the 195 games that Viktor was played in Summer S5) i don't think that he is going to do particularly well against her though it does seem like he should in theory (as Viktor is very good against a linear "run at" team, this should depend on the other champions sivir brings with her. More often than not the extra sivir mobility will bring more lockdown and damage which will catch Viktor out)
On July 31 2015 10:16 cLutZ wrote: Im still confused why Viktor is not 100% LCS pick/ban. You can basically miss every lazer and be a serviceable champion.
Because he loses games.
In Season 5 he has a 46% ish win rate. In Season 5 Summer a 43% ish win rate. He has below 50% win rate in every regular season league except for the Spring LPL. In NA Summer LCS he has a 19% win rate in 21 games. In EU Summer LCS he has a 36% ish win rate in 22 games. In Summer LPL he has a 48.5% win rate in 68 played games. In Summer LCK he has a 45% win rate in 77 games.
Of all the games including playoff game and international competitions he only has a positive win rate in China at 51%. His global NA LCS win rate is 19.2%. His EU LCS win rate is 36%
The real question is probably "why is Vitkor picked if he just keeps losing" and the answer is probably that
1) He actually is decent against Azir. And Azir is another champion which is likely to be first picked.
2) He looks like he is valuable against a number of mids because he can still farm regardless of the matchup. So if you expect to get wrecked in the mid lane you can pick Viktor and hope to win the team fight phase from an opposing error. Unfortunately there are a lot better champions for this, like Kog'Maw, or Varus, or Orianna. [This also has the effect of pulling his win rate down, because worse teams are picking him. But at the same time, its still not a great pickup]
I feel like this is an unsolvable mystery:
Why is this champion ridiculous when played by shitty Gold players, and Faker, but not anyone in between?
Shitty gold players don't dodge lasers. Faker doesnt miss lasers.
On July 31 2015 10:16 cLutZ wrote: Im still confused why Viktor is not 100% LCS pick/ban. You can basically miss every lazer and be a serviceable champion.
Because he loses games.
In Season 5 he has a 46% ish win rate. In Season 5 Summer a 43% ish win rate. He has below 50% win rate in every regular season league except for the Spring LPL. In NA Summer LCS he has a 19% win rate in 21 games. In EU Summer LCS he has a 36% ish win rate in 22 games. In Summer LPL he has a 48.5% win rate in 68 played games. In Summer LCK he has a 45% win rate in 77 games.
Of all the games including playoff game and international competitions he only has a positive win rate in China at 51%. His global NA LCS win rate is 19.2%. His EU LCS win rate is 36%
The real question is probably "why is Vitkor picked if he just keeps losing" and the answer is probably that
1) He actually is decent against Azir. And Azir is another champion which is likely to be first picked.
2) He looks like he is valuable against a number of mids because he can still farm regardless of the matchup. So if you expect to get wrecked in the mid lane you can pick Viktor and hope to win the team fight phase from an opposing error. Unfortunately there are a lot better champions for this, like Kog'Maw, or Varus, or Orianna. [This also has the effect of pulling his win rate down, because worse teams are picking him. But at the same time, its still not a great pickup]
I feel like this is an unsolvable mystery:
Why is this champion ridiculous when played by shitty Gold players, and Faker, but not anyone in between?
Shitty gold players don't dodge lasers. Faker doesnt miss lasers.
So thats why gold players always say they're Faker...Mind blown.
On July 31 2015 14:42 Caiada wrote: Viktor's fantastic because Sivir's fantastic and Kali was fantastic. People think Viktor's great in any old matchup; they lose.
Kalista has a 64% win rate in the summer. In the regular season that is 63% in Korea, 73% in China, 62% in NA and 61% in EU. Viktor has never been good against Kalista (she can jump out of his lasers and out of his W).
Sivir has a 56% win rate in the summer. Though i don't have any specific Viktor vs Sivir numbers(I don't want to search through the 195 games that Viktor was played in Summer S5) i don't think that he is going to do particularly well against her though it does seem like he should in theory (as Viktor is very good against a linear "run at" team, this should depend on the other champions sivir brings with her. More often than not the extra sivir mobility will bring more lockdown and damage which will catch Viktor out)
Oh, sorry, I meant both on the same team. Viktor/Kali has something hilarious like 70%, and Sivir/Viktor's at a respectable 46% given what Viktor's winrate alone is.
For comparison, his other most picked combos are Vayne/Corki/Lucian, who all pair horribly with him and are all basically sub-30%. Vayne/Viktor has won 2 games out of *15*. Corki's the highest of the 3 and is 7/25.
Makes sense. I don't like Vik with sivir but do like him with kalista. Because you can just drop your w on top of somoen trying to kill kalista and you win the fight.
Because you need champions who can take the heat when playing Viktor, he's still super squishy and relies on either killing you first, opening up another "safe" area in the vincinity, or walking away using Ghost or Q augment. Of course it doesn't work well with Vayne in general since she needs the same thing (or for people to split up so she can keep 1v1ing one after the other), which reduces your options for the other picks.
And Sivir is better when you have the lockdown/burst to go with her. Viktor's E is hard to hit at max range against someone who's running away, his W is delayed, and a bunch of his ult damage is in the periodic AoE effect. It works better with Kalista because W's zone control helps her, and because you need to commit a bunch of cc on her, you can't chase her. Which means less cc on Viktor, making it easier to skirt the edges of the fight. You also tend to want to burst Kalista first because she becomes that much harder to kill after the initiation stage.
On July 31 2015 23:08 kongoline wrote: my god u are really trying hard to convince everybody how weak is viktor when hes in fact top3 mid right now
"Viktor doesn't pair that well with Sivir, actually"
"hurr durr stop trying to say Viktor is shit hurr durr"
I spend less time talking about Viktor than you do whining that x champion is broken or x champion you like was gutted in the past. Go check your doormat and give me a break if you can't read properly.
Also note that because there is little diversity in the various AD tiers, I dunno how significant it'd be to do stats involving "combos" of them and other champions? Sivir's a bit different because of her ult, but Kalista, Corki, etc. are what's picked because they're clear above the rest atm. Kinda how it'd have been hard to make stats on combos including Gragas and Sejuani when pretty much only these were played, and Rek'Sai when one was banned.
On July 31 2015 23:08 kongoline wrote: my god u are really trying hard to convince everybody how weak is viktor when hes in fact top3 mid right now
"Viktor doesn't pair that well with Sivir, actually"
"hurr durr stop trying to say Viktor is shit hurr durr"
I spend less time talking about Viktor than you do whining that x champion is broken or x champion you like was gutted in the past. Go check your doormat and give me a break if you can't read properly.
Also note that because there is little diversity in the various AD tiers, I dunno how significant it'd be to do stats involving "combos" of them and other champions? Sivir's a bit different because of her ult, but Kalista, Corki, etc. are what's picked because they're clear above the rest atm. Kinda how it'd have been hard to make stats on combos including Gragas and Sejuani when pretty much only these were played, and Rek'Sai when one was banned.
LMAO must be nice to be stuck in depth of autism, u have 22k posts and half of them are whinning
On July 31 2015 23:44 nafta wrote: Why look at stats in lcs when it has been proven so many times they don't mean shit?Now even less because there are more teams in the league.
He's 37% in LPL; 33.3% in LCK. Consistent with oracleselixir stats.
Of course, that's all pre-5.14, where his big counter got nerfed, so, he's better now, along with aforementioned draft issues. LPL tries him with everything because billions of games, and I don't really hold LCK drafting in high regard anymore unless it's SKT/KT/CJ.
On July 31 2015 23:44 nafta wrote: Why look at stats in lcs when it has been proven so many times they don't mean shit?Now even less because there are more teams in the league.
He's 37% in LPL; 33.3% in LCK.
Of course, that's all pre-5.14, where his big counter got nerfed, so.
And?The champ is really good right now don't think anyone can deny that.Easily top 3.Lucian used to have 30% win rate yet was the 2nd best adc.Now he is just average and is 1/18 or w/e it was in the west.It really doesn't mean anything.
Would even say that ban+pick rate is more important than winrate.
On July 31 2015 23:44 nafta wrote: Why look at stats in lcs when it has been proven so many times they don't mean shit?Now even less because there are more teams in the league.
He's 37% in LPL; 33.3% in LCK.
Of course, that's all pre-5.14, where his big counter got nerfed, so.
And?The champ is really good right now don't think anyone can deny that.Easily top 3.Lucian used to have 30% win rate yet was the 2nd best adc.Now he is just average and is 1/18 or w/e it was in the west.It really doesn't mean anything.
Would even say that ban+pick rate is more important than winrate.
You just said LCS, like they're somehow not statistically relevant, when clearly Viktor is having the same sort of issues in Chinese/Korean LoL too.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to ignore statistics without at least trying to understand the context.
On July 31 2015 23:08 kongoline wrote: my god u are really trying hard to convince everybody how weak is viktor when hes in fact top3 mid right now
"Viktor doesn't pair that well with Sivir, actually"
"hurr durr stop trying to say Viktor is shit hurr durr"
I spend less time talking about Viktor than you do whining that x champion is broken or x champion you like was gutted in the past. Go check your doormat and give me a break if you can't read properly.
Also note that because there is little diversity in the various AD tiers, I dunno how significant it'd be to do stats involving "combos" of them and other champions? Sivir's a bit different because of her ult, but Kalista, Corki, etc. are what's picked because they're clear above the rest atm. Kinda how it'd have been hard to make stats on combos including Gragas and Sejuani when pretty much only these were played, and Rek'Sai when one was banned.
I thought about that, but the Viktor/Kali stat was significant enough to notice, and especially lately, people have picked a lot of Vayne/Corki/Kog, and I think all 4 are about as good as each other at the moment. As much as I hate admitting Vayne is good.
They also pick a lot of Lucian, which I don't like with anyone. I think ADC is probably the most stubborn role for picks.
Of course you've gotta take all these with some skepticism, but that's most stats. Drafting outside of like 5 teams in the world is in a shit state right now.
I don't see a point in looking at statics when I don't even know how often the team that was supposed to win/lose picks him.Watching the games in which he is played helps a lot more than looking at his stats.Just because a champ has 33% win rate doesn't mean it is because the champs is bad or w/e there are wayyyy too many variables for this to be relevant.
On August 01 2015 00:30 nafta wrote: I don't see a point in looking at statics when I don't even know how often the team that was supposed to win/lose picks him.Watching the games in which he is played helps a lot more than looking at his stats.Just because a champ has 33% win rate doesn't mean it is because the champs is bad or w/e there are wayyyy too many variables for this to be relevant.
True. But that's more of an individual draft thing, and just about every top tier mid right now has a decent chunk of Viktor games. There's ~220 picks of Viktor in Summer.
It's obviously subjective, and I'm not arguing he's weak. But it's complicated and all statistics are relevant. It's a question of how much, which smarter drafters than me should be working through instead of (as completely unbiased example) letting Bjergsen pick him all the time, Locodoco.
Viktor stats in LCK suggest he's fine to good. SKT and KOO pick Viktor a ton, and are 14-1 (compared to 52-17 overall). The other four good teams pick Viktor quite a bit and are 16-15 (compared to 86-62 overall). The bottom four teams pick Viktor quite a bit, and are a combined 5-25 with Viktor (compared to 42-100 overall). So for the top 6 teams Viktor is fine (even if you exclude SKT and KOO he's not bad), for the bottom 4 he's actually worse than their performance with other mids.
Note that I'm going by the statistics displayed on the individual player pages on lol.esportspedia; these numbers seem to disagree with the Viktor stats on the Statistics page for the LCK summer split as a whole (which is partly why Viktor looks so bad if you look there). I'm too lazy to check for sure which is correct (I'm not looking through 175 total games), but I think the player pages are right and the overall statistics page is wrong. The player pages have Viktor at 35-41, not 25-48.
Also it doesn't seem to include last night's games at least, but that should be ok; arbitrary endpoints are arbitrary anyway.
edit: Also Viktor has only lost one more game than he's won in LPL, by the same method. 31-32 overall.
edit2: This site http://www.gamesoflegends.com/tournament/stats.php?id=LPL Summer 2015 agrees with the player page numbers from lol.esportspedia, so I think the overall statistics pages are just wrong for Viktor, somehow. ~50% winrate in both LPL and LCK, not the silly 30% numbers that lol.esportspedia tries to claim. Faulty data!
On July 31 2015 23:44 nafta wrote: Why look at stats in lcs when it has been proven so many times they don't mean shit?Now even less because there are more teams in the league.
He's 37% in LPL; 33.3% in LCK.
Of course, that's all pre-5.14, where his big counter got nerfed, so.
And?The champ is really good right now don't think anyone can deny that.Easily top 3.Lucian used to have 30% win rate yet was the 2nd best adc.Now he is just average and is 1/18 or w/e it was in the west.It really doesn't mean anything. Would even say that ban+pick rate is more important than winrate.
I agree with this completely. Teams practice a ton and understand the game in general better than any of us. If they decide to pick or ban a champ they believe it to be strong and are probably right.
Brokenshard thinks Sivir fell off. Iunno why the fuck I'd listen to him.
Blunt example, but honestly, I have absolutely zero faith in Western analytical staff outside of Deilor.
On August 01 2015 01:06 crate wrote: Viktor stats in LCK suggest he's fine to good. SKT and KOO pick Viktor a ton, and are 14-1 (compared to 52-17 overall). The other four good teams pick Viktor quite a bit and are 16-15 (compared to 86-62 overall). The bottom four teams pick Viktor quite a bit, and are a combined 5-25 with Viktor (compared to 42-100 overall). So for the top 6 teams Viktor is fine (even if you exclude SKT and KOO he's not bad), for the bottom 4 he's actually worse than their performance with other mids.
Note that I'm going by the statistics displayed on the individual player pages on lol.esportspedia; these numbers seem to disagree with the Viktor stats on the Statistics page for the LCK summer split as a whole (which is partly why Viktor looks so bad if you look there). I'm too lazy to check for sure which is correct (I'm not looking through 175 total games), but I think the player pages are right and the overall statistics page is wrong. The player pages have Viktor at 35-41, not 25-48.
Also it doesn't seem to include last night's games at least, but that should be ok; arbitrary endpoints are arbitrary anyway.
edit: Also Viktor has only lost one more game than he's won in LPL, by the same method. 31-32 overall.
edit2: This site http://www.gamesoflegends.com/tournament/stats.php?id=LPL Summer 2015 agrees with the player page numbers from lol.esportspedia, so I think the overall statistics pages are just wrong for Viktor, somehow. ~50% winrate in both LPL and LCK, not the silly 30% numbers that lol.esportspedia tries to claim. Faulty data!
oracleselixir.com is pretty much the premiere statistics site right now and has him at 39% excluding LPL.
Excluding LPL is bad, and oracleselixir doesn't let me do a lot of things that I want (it seems good if all you want is aggregate data across all leagues, but for a few reasons I would suggest that that is not ideal). This gamesoflegends site seems pretty good, assuming its data is good (which as far as I can tell it is).
Viktor's stats seem about what I would expect if you think he's strong in LPL/LCK, for a few reasons.
1) In NA, the bad teams picked Viktor a lot more than the good teams. TL played Viktor twice; CLG, GV, and TiP didn't play Viktor at all; Dig played Viktor once; and TSM three times. So, the non-playoff teams (and NA's non-playoff teams had really bad records this split) played Viktor a lot more. You can argue about whether Viktor caused the losses also, of course (perhaps the bad teams were bad because they played Viktor), but given that he's good in the two best leagues in the world (and also in LMS based on the stats I could find) I would suggest that it's not a problem with the champion being bad per se. It does support Viktor being bad in LCS, though.
(The EU picks are less skewed in this fashion; I would suggest that the "true" NA winrate of Viktor is similar to the "true" EU winrate for Viktor, though figuring out how to properly regress LoL winrates is something I do not want to spend time on right now.)
2) This is admittedly not based on data I have at hand (unfortunately it's really obnoxious to try to gather this data, since afaik you'd have to do it manually, and I'm pretty sure no one has tracked this) but anecdotally it seems that LPL and LCK mids roam around the map more often earlier in the game than LCS mids, and that's where a lot of Viktor's power comes from.
If you're just trying to suggest that Viktor is bad in the LCS, I'd believe that and agree; I don't think the teams in LCS leverage his strengths very well in general (and the teams agree that he's not great in LCS; he's rarely banned and not highly contested). But I think he's a pretty strong pick if you can do so. The fact that he's at near 50% winrate and highly contested in both LPL and LCK suggests that he's not weak in LCK and LPL.
edit: also I should probably explicitly state that I assume that LPL and LCK are overall stronger than either EU or NA LCS.
On August 01 2015 01:22 Sufficiency wrote: Wickd is saying GP is enabled for CS but he is currently disabled for Live, lol.
Seriously one of the strangest decisions Riot have made.
Whoa there, there have been a LOT of strange decisions over the years. Don't know if this ranks in top 5.
Anyway I'm looking at top/support laners to buy as I think I have enough mid/adc/jgl that work alright in ranked. Top so far has been Shen ,Yorick(I know lol) or Irelia and Support I just Janna or Annie if Janna is gone.
On August 01 2015 01:22 Sufficiency wrote: Wickd is saying GP is enabled for CS but he is currently disabled for Live, lol.
Seriously one of the strangest decisions Riot have made.
Whoa there, there have been a LOT of strange decisions over the years. Don't know if this ranks in top 5.
Anyway I'm looking at top/support laners to buy as I think I have enough mid/adc/jgl that work alright in ranked. Top so far has been Shen ,Yorick(I know lol) or Irelia and Support I just Janna or Annie if Janna is gone.
180-220 on a good day. So I don't really play twitchy stuff. Think most "twitchy" i played was Zed back in S2(or S3?) and now Ahri but she's not really twitchy.
I forgot I owned morg! I shall add her to the list. Vlad is someone I've always been keen on but never know if he's good enough to warrant spending that juicy IP. Yorick used to be my S2 blind pick if I was scared, that fucker still seems to shit on noobs lol.
Don't think morg is good with 200 ping on supp but can work in top/mid.Especially now with how the coin start with not getting w at all is so popular(and much better honestly) she just sucks in lane too much.Black shield when not used on reaction is kind of a shitty ability honestly.Best bet would be naut cuz he takes 0 skill and his q is very easy to land.
On August 01 2015 01:22 Sufficiency wrote: Wickd is saying GP is enabled for CS but he is currently disabled for Live, lol.
Seriously one of the strangest decisions Riot have made.
Whoa there, there have been a LOT of strange decisions over the years. Don't know if this ranks in top 5.
Anyway I'm looking at top/support laners to buy as I think I have enough mid/adc/jgl that work alright in ranked. Top so far has been Shen ,Yorick(I know lol) or Irelia and Support I just Janna or Annie if Janna is gone.
If you dont main support just play Blitz. If you want to be a bit more spicy you can buy Lulu since she can go both top or support - just remember you need to spam /laugh with her.
On August 01 2015 02:16 crate wrote: Excluding LPL is bad, and oracleselixir doesn't let me do a lot of things that I want (it seems good if all you want is aggregate data across all leagues, but for a few reasons I would suggest that that is not ideal). This gamesoflegends site seems pretty good, assuming its data is good (which as far as I can tell it is).
Viktor's stats seem about what I would expect if you think he's strong in LPL/LCK, for a few reasons.
1) In NA, the bad teams picked Viktor a lot more than the good teams. TL played Viktor twice; CLG, GV, and TiP didn't play Viktor at all; Dig played Viktor once; and TSM three times. So, the non-playoff teams (and NA's non-playoff teams had really bad records this split) played Viktor a lot more. You can argue about whether Viktor caused the losses also, of course (perhaps the bad teams were bad because they played Viktor), but given that he's good in the two best leagues in the world (and also in LMS based on the stats I could find) I would suggest that it's not a problem with the champion being bad per se. It does support Viktor being bad in LCS, though.
(The EU picks are less skewed in this fashion; I would suggest that the "true" NA winrate of Viktor is similar to the "true" EU winrate for Viktor, though figuring out how to properly regress LoL winrates is something I do not want to spend time on right now.)
2) This is admittedly not based on data I have at hand (unfortunately it's really obnoxious to try to gather this data, since afaik you'd have to do it manually, and I'm pretty sure no one has tracked this) but anecdotally it seems that LPL and LCK mids roam around the map more often earlier in the game than LCS mids, and that's where a lot of Viktor's power comes from.
If you're just trying to suggest that Viktor is bad in the LCS, I'd believe that and agree; I don't think the teams in LCS leverage his strengths very well in general (and the teams agree that he's not great in LCS; he's rarely banned and not highly contested). But I think he's a pretty strong pick if you can do so. The fact that he's at near 50% winrate and highly contested in both LPL and LCK suggests that he's not weak in LCK and LPL.
edit: also I should probably explicitly state that I assume that LPL and LCK are overall stronger than either EU or NA LCS.
Eh. We're going into "the stats will confirm whatever bias you have" territory here. You can say that Viktor only has a low win rate because bad teams pick him. You can say that Viktor only wins at all because good teams pick him and they would win otherwise. You can say that bad teams pick Viktor and do even worse because he is bad.
Because of this its better, in my opinion, to use the overall stats a measure of "strength". And this puts Viktor solidly in the "kinda not very good" category, especially given how many games he has played. He doesn't get reasonably close to a 50% win rate despite being picked quite a bit. And 50% is your borderline "average" champion.
Of the 20 champions which have seen over 100 games played in Summer 2015 Viktor has the lowest win%[which includes playoffs and SEA, not including these he would be lower] at 44% tied with Corki and Nautilus. Of these champions there are only 7 who are below 50%. (Corki, Nautilus, Viktor, Evelyn, Azir, Rumble, Hecarim).
You can say he is average, maybe. But not strong.
Kalista is strong. 107 Picks, 63% win, 447 bans. Kog'Maw is strong 78 picks, 62% win. Twisted Fate is strong 66 picks, 59% win. Sivir is strong, 339 picks 57% win
Then again, there aren't a lot of mids which have really big win%s we can be confident in. Which means that either mid is kind of not impactful or that the level of mids is so close its not worth taking one over the other. For instance Jungle has three clear winners in Ekko, RekSai, and Gragas; but all three are within 1% of win to each other(51,50,50) so its not worth worrying about unless you can guarantee one of them and the other two are banned. Mid seems like it should be the same way, but Lulu and Kog, and Ezreal, and TF, and Cassio all have goodish win rates with decent pick numbers. Even if we throw some of those out due to changes during the summer split that is still a lot of power which you leave on the table by picking Viktor, so you better have a damned good reason*
*One example might be the most recent LPL games, where Viktor was picked with Graves (twice i think) to abuse the overlapping or chained zone control. With both of them they controlled two chokes at once, or prevented an enemy from realizing he was going to get Viktor'd thus negating a lot of the disadvantages of both champions. Before today Graves was 1/22 in the summer[never played with Vik]. And he got 1 or 2 wins with Viktor tonight so maybe that was a key to both.
It seems to me that Viktor and Azir are "default" picks, and if Azir is stronger (probably for most players) plus other picks are stronger in their niches (TF, Ezreal) that would explain his not great winrate.
Azir's kit is very strong and rewards the players with high mechanical skill (Shurima Shuffle, Shurima Shiffle + ulti, Fenix's 1v4 quadra, etc.), Viktor is pretty safe with good waveclear and stupid amounts of damage. Outside of those two, the rest of the popular mid laners are due to global pressure (TF), unique item interactions (AP Runeglaive Ezreal), or have good scaling (Cassieopeia, Kassadin, etc.) to help cut through the front line in the mid/late game.
For strength of schedule if you missed it I made a blog post about it here; it's important for NA but Viktor still isn't good in LCS (I expected a bigger difference before I did the calculations). He performs almost exactly average-for-actually-selected midlaners in LPL (I didn't do LCK data), and he is the second-most-banned midlaner (behind Azir) in LPL, 4th (behind Azir, Leblanc, Cassio) in LCK.
Additionally, Viktor's winrate in LPL/LCK is basically identical to Azir's across the two leagues combined; both are at 47%. Azir has been a bit more successful than Viktor in LCK, Viktor a bit more successful than Azir in LPL*. Because Azir has more bans (something I haven't spent time figuring out how to incorporate, mathematically) and because he's been more successful in other regions I would agree that Azir is stronger than Viktor, but how much stronger pretty heavily depends on how much a ban is worth.
*I didn't look at strength-of-schedule considerations for Azir or LCK Viktor yet, so this might not actually be true, since I'm just using unadjusted winrate.
Bringing up Kog'Maw is interesting, because he's actually been used primarily as a midlaner in LCS and almost entirely (all but 2 games total) in a duo lane in LPL/LCK. I will suggest that mid Kog and duo-lane Kog are different enough that they should be treated as 2 separate champions (completely separate build paths, for one thing), though you can disagree with me and I won't argue. Duo-lane Kog is 3-3 in NA LCS and 2-4 in EU LCS; he's 21-12 in LCK and 3-5 in LPL. So, pretty much entirely an LCK pick. Midlane Kog is 0-1 in LPL, 1-0 in LCK; he's 9-2 in NA LCS, and 7-3 in EU LCS. Almost entirely an LCS pick.
We know that all four regions have players who can play mid Kog just fine, and we know that all four regions have players who can play botlane Kog just fine also. So it's not a case of the pick being good but the players not knowing how to play it. Since midlane Kog isn't used in LPL/LCK, the possible conclusions are either that he's not actually good in LPL/LCK (i.e. the teams are correct in believing that mid Kog is not worth picking), or that somehow every team missed the boat on the pick (every single team is wrong and mid Kog is actually good in LPL/LCK). I find the latter conclusion unlikely. The same applies for botlane Kog outside of Korea. This suggests to me that you can't just blindly use stats from all leagues together, since there are some differences in how teams play that make certain champions actually better or actually worse.
It's of course possible that, for instance, LCK just has better bot-lane Kog'Maw players than other regions; I would say this is one of the likely causes of the pick being stronger in Korea than elsewhere (other possibilities being things like jungle gank timings and midlane roams etc.). If your entire region has no good Kog players, then Kog isn't a strong pick within that region, even if as a champion he's just fine.
---
My main point was that Caiada's stats from earlier in this topic (post 653 at least) are flat wrong (37% LPL and 33% winrate in LCK for Viktor are not true; he's at 49% in LPL and 46% in LCK; I'm pretty sure Caiada's numbers came from the incorrect lol.esportspedia pages) and out-of-context (while his LPL/LCS winrate combined is not good, it's because he's been so terrible in LCS despite being fine in LCK).
I probably shouldn't have said anything about LCS Viktor winrate that wasn't coming from the stats background, but I do things like that a lot.
Anyway this is probably enough on this subject in this thread, I'll take further discussion to my blog when I plug in some more numbers.
This TF vs. Graves event is like a bad Jim Gaffagin joke. "Hey how about a TF vs. Graves event?" "Great, idea, but where?" "How about ARAM. You know, gold on ARAM"
That was great. I don't do sports stats so never really bothered to figure out strength of schedule stuff. I will have to look into it.
I would also agree with you that Mid Kog is very different than bot Kog. I just didn't recall seeing a lot of bot Kog when watching the LPL. But i hadn't payed much attention to it and just figured that he was used mid more than bot.
I know they would give me automatic responses from support section if I wanted to get rid of that ban and nothing would be done unless my thread would blow up on Reddit (that's pathetic, btw)
Between that sentence and the Riot response, that's about as wrecked as you can get.
On August 01 2015 10:37 cLutZ wrote: This TF vs. Graves event is like a bad Jim Gaffagin joke. "Hey how about a TF vs. Graves event?" "Great, idea, but where?" "How about ARAM. You know, gold on ARAM"
I didn't find it that bad but then again I play aram all the time. the only possibly annoying part was the three wins because I've had like 8-10 game losing streaks before(fortunately didn't happen this time).
On August 01 2015 10:37 cLutZ wrote: This TF vs. Graves event is like a bad Jim Gaffagin joke. "Hey how about a TF vs. Graves event?" "Great, idea, but where?" "How about ARAM. You know, gold on ARAM"
I didn't find it that bad but then again I play aram all the time. the only possibly annoying part was the three wins because I've had like 8-10 game losing streaks before(fortunately didn't happen this time).
Its just so random, like they asked a random guy who was hungover for his ideas, then implemented them.
On August 01 2015 17:01 JonnyLaw wrote: The third grave/tf quest seems worst. Win two brawler games then play four more after those wins? Six minimum ick.
On August 01 2015 17:01 JonnyLaw wrote: The third grave/tf quest seems worst. Win two brawler games then play four more after those wins? Six minimum ick.
u havent seen TF's quest...
No, TF is by far less of a hassle. Even getting a few really crappy minion clearing champions it too me 4, maybe 5 ARAMs to qualify that critera. At least you didn't have to win the games.
So there's a bug with devourer. Whenever you use a consumable, eg. a ward or a potion, devourer stops working. The dog dies, the on hit damage isn't applied, you don't gain any stacks, and you lose the aspd. This lasts for about 4-8 seconds. I think it varies. This doesn't seem to affect trinket wards or sated devourer. I'm unsure about flask's interaction.
But basically if you have devourer, don't use potions while fighting camps. It'll slow down your clear speed and cause you do take more damage in the long run. Instead, use potions in between camps, and be careful using potions near dragon/baron. Using a potion and smiting dragon will result in 0 stacks.
There's been a lot of weird bugs. Back when Sion had the highest win rate in the jungle, higher than Sejuani at her prime, I couldn't really understand why. Then they gave Sion a few nerfs and fixed the scaling on his ult to work on his opponent's AD instead of his. People were building Sion full tank so he basically lost hundreds of damage on his ult. I don't try to explain winrates anymore.
I dunno wtf they're doing with Skarner. Hopefully just minor stuff. Garen they said is just one new mechanic and some improvements. Morde and Darius are the larger ones. Curious about what they'll do.
I like that they're more aggressively putting in small gameplay changes. Just as long as they're more useful than MF's was.
It won't matter for worlds. I doubt any of them will be big enough to suddenly make the 'guys running at you' niche all that useful in conjunction with the itemization changes.
On August 01 2015 23:05 Alaric wrote: Most importantly, it's implied to hit in August or early September... When are worlds again?
5.16's going to be a pretty big patch with multiple reworks and some item changes. After that though we'll be shifting focus to balance refinements, with the aim of a stable patch for worlds (so no major disruption expected in 5.17 or 5.18, given Worlds will probably be played on one of those two patches).
We need some more jax/orianna/lee buffs or nerfs to their competition to bring it back for worlds.Corki already is back to top tier :D
On August 01 2015 23:08 Caiada wrote: I dunno wtf they're doing with Skarner. Hopefully just minor stuff. Garen they said is just one new mechanic and some improvements. Morde and Darius are the larger ones. Curious about what they'll do.
I like that they're more aggressively putting in small gameplay changes. Just as long as they're more useful than MF's was.
It won't matter for worlds. I doubt any of them will be big enough to suddenly make the 'guys running at you' niche all that useful in conjunction with the itemization changes.
Also they're doing a rework for Skarner, Darius, Garen, and Morde really soon (expected patch 5.16?). I'm gonna spam some Morde games before they do.
Well, yeah. I consider all of them fighters, which is really just Riot stupid talk for bruiser to me.
That's a really pedantic distinction....
Not really. Look at the fighters that aren't overly concerned about these changes. Most of them are either melee carry types(Fiora, Tryndamere) or "assassins"(Riven, Yasuo). 3 of the 4 champions set to be worked on are Fighter/Tanks, the fourth being being a Fighter/Mage. The Fighter tag has enough variety in it that it's a silly distinction to make because nothing strictly spans that gap.
So I played a game of black market. I didn't really understand what was going on or what items were good. I don't really feel like figuring out all this shit, but I do kinda want to play it. Does anyone have a tutorial or can TLDR me? Which one's the best brawler, which are the good new items, etc.
On August 01 2015 23:58 Sonnington wrote: So I played a game of black market. I didn't really understand what was going on or what items were good. I don't really feel like figuring out all this shit, but I do kinda want to play it. Does anyone have a tutorial or can TLDR me? Which one's the best brawler, which are the good new items, etc.
Codex upgrades are flat out broken, the claw item is hilarious on on hitters, the axe item is strong on AD casters, and the damage redirecting item means Leona should be permabanned imo.
While the patches might be the same regularity it feels like they make more changes per patch at the moment.
I thought this was an intentional interaction (sort of like extending ward range too), wasn't aware it doesn't work vs other invis champions. Now I know why I've never been able to spot Shaco ganks. lol
Diamond made a post which is basically recapping his thoughts and experiences on gambit from when he got benched for Loulex to today. Good read featuring a bitch session about forg1ven's ban.
So you guys are super excited whenever a patch introduces a new champion or item, and want to figure it out (or, about as often, for it to be spoon fed to you here within the first two pages as if we could divine it and do your work for you).
But when a new gamemode that you can 100% ignore unless you want some free icons you probably won't use more than twice gives you a bunch of new toys to try out and determine for yourself whether they're good or not, and with Riot actually testing stuff on a much larger scale than on the PBE where 50 people or various but often very low level may or may not test for bugs and shit for the benefit of the QA team, I've only seen bitching and complaining about it.
So... I guess that's where I indulge in the meme too and spam something like "we reddit now"?
I'd be the first to admit that after having played the new game mode a few times I absolutely love it. The new items are much more fun than the bland vanilla items and the idea of upgradable minions is super cute. Tricker's Glass is the most fun I've had in League for a long time. <3
On August 02 2015 03:20 Alaric wrote: So you guys are super excited whenever a patch introduces a new champion or item, and want to figure it out (or, about as often, for it to be spoon fed to you here within the first two pages as if we could divine it and do your work for you).
But when a new gamemode that you can 100% ignore unless you want some free icons you probably won't use more than twice gives you a bunch of new toys to try out and determine for yourself whether they're good or not, and with Riot actually testing stuff on a much larger scale than on the PBE where 50 people or various but often very low level may or may not test for bugs and shit for the benefit of the QA team, I've only seen bitching and complaining about it.
So... I guess that's where I indulge in the meme too and spam something like "we reddit now"?
If there's one thing the new UI has taught us, change is bad. Any change is to be viewed with scorn and contempt.
Well, I can understand the people who want to play GP thinking that disabling GP merely for the purposes dead-ness is dumb. Sure, there's a bug currently, but that doesn't make the idea any better for them.
On August 02 2015 03:20 Alaric wrote: So you guys are super excited whenever a patch introduces a new champion or item, and want to figure it out (or, about as often, for it to be spoon fed to you here within the first two pages as if we could divine it and do your work for you).
But when a new gamemode that you can 100% ignore unless you want some free icons you probably won't use more than twice gives you a bunch of new toys to try out and determine for yourself whether they're good or not, and with Riot actually testing stuff on a much larger scale than on the PBE where 50 people or various but often very low level may or may not test for bugs and shit for the benefit of the QA team, I've only seen bitching and complaining about it.
So... I guess that's where I indulge in the meme too and spam something like "we reddit now"?
If there's one thing the new UI has taught us, change is bad. Any change is to be viewed with scorn and contempt.
So I guess no one should complain about the UI then so it can remain in a worse state? It's not like they made any changes after feedback or anything...
On August 02 2015 03:20 Alaric wrote: So you guys are super excited whenever a patch introduces a new champion or item, and want to figure it out (or, about as often, for it to be spoon fed to you here within the first two pages as if we could divine it and do your work for you).
But when a new gamemode that you can 100% ignore unless you want some free icons you probably won't use more than twice gives you a bunch of new toys to try out and determine for yourself whether they're good or not, and with Riot actually testing stuff on a much larger scale than on the PBE where 50 people or various but often very low level may or may not test for bugs and shit for the benefit of the QA team, I've only seen bitching and complaining about it.
So... I guess that's where I indulge in the meme too and spam something like "we reddit now"?
If there's one thing the new UI has taught us, change is bad. Any change is to be viewed with scorn and contempt.
So I guess no one should complain about the UI then so it can remain in a worse state? It's not like they made any changes after feedback or anything...
No, you shouldn't complain it because it's new and therefore anyone who complains about it is just a whiner who hates change.
On August 02 2015 04:39 JimmiC wrote: I think the point is there is constructive criticism and bitching. People on both ends mistake both for the other. Giving feedback at how you would like it to be better is fine. Saying it's awful the world is ending and u are quitting lol is ridic.
What if that's how I genuinely feel? I haven't played League in more than a week, at what point will I convince you that I really think this UI is horrible?
On August 02 2015 03:20 Alaric wrote: So you guys are super excited whenever a patch introduces a new champion or item, and want to figure it out (or, about as often, for it to be spoon fed to you here within the first two pages as if we could divine it and do your work for you).
But when a new gamemode that you can 100% ignore unless you want some free icons you probably won't use more than twice gives you a bunch of new toys to try out and determine for yourself whether they're good or not, and with Riot actually testing stuff on a much larger scale than on the PBE where 50 people or various but often very low level may or may not test for bugs and shit for the benefit of the QA team, I've only seen bitching and complaining about it.
So... I guess that's where I indulge in the meme too and spam something like "we reddit now"?
If there's one thing the new UI has taught us, change is bad. Any change is to be viewed with scorn and contempt.
So I guess no one should complain about the UI then so it can remain in a worse state? It's not like they made any changes after feedback or anything...
On August 02 2015 03:20 Alaric wrote: So you guys are super excited whenever a patch introduces a new champion or item, and want to figure it out (or, about as often, for it to be spoon fed to you here within the first two pages as if we could divine it and do your work for you).
But when a new gamemode that you can 100% ignore unless you want some free icons you probably won't use more than twice gives you a bunch of new toys to try out and determine for yourself whether they're good or not, and with Riot actually testing stuff on a much larger scale than on the PBE where 50 people or various but often very low level may or may not test for bugs and shit for the benefit of the QA team, I've only seen bitching and complaining about it.
So... I guess that's where I indulge in the meme too and spam something like "we reddit now"?
If there's one thing the new UI has taught us, change is bad. Any change is to be viewed with scorn and contempt.
So I guess no one should complain about the UI then so it can remain in a worse state? It's not like they made any changes after feedback or anything...
No, you shouldn't complain it because it's new and therefore anyone who complains about it is just a whiner who hates change.
I'd link a snarky wiki page and/or picture here, but it's too easy.
Actual arguments are in desperately short supply on this board. Most of the things spouted as fact are blatantly wrong/underresearched, and opinions have nothing behind them but 'lol riot' more often than not.
OK guys, Razorfins are OP as shiatsu. Just level up abilities first and they chase down champions with a lot of move speed and double in number. There's no reason to pick anything but Razorfins.
Edit: Oh yeah, for the record, the new UI is superior in almost every way. The vast majority of people complaining are complaining because it's different, not because it has obvious problems.
On August 02 2015 05:05 Sonnington wrote: OK guys, Razorfins are OP as shiatsu. Just level up abilities first and they chase down champions with a lot of move speed and double in number. There's no reason to pick anything but Razorfins.
Edit: Oh yeah, for the record, the new UI is superior in almost every way. The vast majority of people complaining are complaining because it's different, not because it has obvious problems.
They're the best for damage but they give the enemy double gold at rank 3 :/
Diamond made a post which is basically recapping his thoughts and experiences on gambit from when he got benched for Loulex to today. Good read featuring a bitch session about forg1ven's ban.
Diamond made a post which is basically recapping his thoughts and experiences on gambit from when he got benched for Loulex to today. Good read featuring a bitch session about forg1ven's ban.
Diamond made a post which is basically recapping his thoughts and experiences on gambit from when he got benched for Loulex to today. Good read featuring a bitch session about forg1ven's ban.
On August 02 2015 05:05 Sonnington wrote: OK guys, Razorfins are OP as shiatsu. Just level up abilities first and they chase down champions with a lot of move speed and double in number. There's no reason to pick anything but Razorfins.
Edit: Oh yeah, for the record, the new UI is superior in almost every way. The vast majority of people complaining are complaining because it's different, not because it has obvious problems.
They're the best for damage but they give the enemy double gold at rank 3 :/
True, but it's worth to make every lane auto push forever. It makes getting picks a breeze and basically gives you complete map control all the time.
On August 02 2015 04:39 JimmiC wrote: I think the point is there is constructive criticism and bitching. People on both ends mistake both for the other. Giving feedback at how you would like it to be better is fine. Saying it's awful the world is ending and u are quitting lol is ridic.
What if that's how I genuinely feel? I haven't played League in more than a week, at what point will I convince you that I really think this UI is horrible?
U don't have to convince me of anything, in fact you could just play ranked and use old UI.
Earlier in the thread i did some basic damage calcs for Zekes Harbinger, comparing it to Ardent Censor. In it i erroneously listed the damage bonus that Zekes gives you at about 30%. This number is too low.
In actuality Zekes gives a damage bonus from between 56.7% and 37% depending on your items. This is because i erroneously figured that the IE crit damage bonus would be neutral between having or not having zekes and so ignored it.
Rather. If you have no crit items, Zekes gives you +50% damage on your auto attacks[1.5/1.0]. If you have PD only it gives you 37% damage on your auto attacks[1.85/1.35]. If you have IE only it gives 56.7% damage on your auto attacks [2.05/1.3]. If you have IE and PD it gives you 37% damage on your auto attacks [2.5/1.825]
How this changes optimal AD itemization I am not sure. I would not be surprised to find that it skews away from crit items and towards just having IE and maybe Ghostblade or even getting those super late and going for BT/Ghostblade early. But I am sure that Zekes absolutely trounces Ardent Censer unless you can get Censer on your entire team pretty consistently (and they can make use of it)
On August 02 2015 05:05 Sonnington wrote: OK guys, Razorfins are OP as shiatsu. Just level up abilities first and they chase down champions with a lot of move speed and double in number. There's no reason to pick anything but Razorfins.
Edit: Oh yeah, for the record, the new UI is superior in almost every way. The vast majority of people complaining are complaining because it's different, not because it has obvious problems.
They're the best for damage but they give the enemy double gold at rank 3 :/
True, but it's worth to make every lane auto push forever. It makes getting picks a breeze and basically gives you complete map control all the time.
I haven't played as a role that doesn't have amazing sustain so far so I'm not sure how scary they are. Usually I just clear the whole wave and end up with more health than I started with. Also I thought their dps was mostly for champions. If you want the wave to push ocklepod shields probably help more, and it's easier to make picks when the enemy over-extends by pushing a wave.
I've literally heard the exact opposite, to never get Razorfins because of the doublegold issue.
On August 02 2015 06:07 Goumindong wrote: Oh crap, so i had forgotten about this.
Earlier in the thread i did some basic damage calcs for Zekes Harbinger, comparing it to Ardent Censor. In it i erroneously listed the damage bonus that Zekes gives you at about 30%. This number is too low.
In actuality Zekes gives a damage bonus from between 56.7% and 37% depending on your items. This is because i erroneously figured that the IE crit damage bonus would be neutral between having or not having zekes and so ignored it.
Rather. If you have no crit items, Zekes gives you +50% damage on your auto attacks[1.5/1.0]. If you have PD only it gives you 37% damage on your auto attacks[1.85/1.35]. If you have IE only it gives 56.7% damage on your auto attacks [2.05/1.3]. If you have IE and PD it gives you 37% damage on your auto attacks [2.5/1.825]
How this changes optimal AD itemization I am not sure. I would not be surprised to find that it skews away from crit items and towards just having IE and maybe Ghostblade or even getting those super late and going for BT/Ghostblade early. But I am sure that Zekes absolutely trounces Ardent Censer unless you can get Censer on your entire team pretty consistently (and they can make use of it)
I can picture Draven being terror with a Zekes on the team then since he totally loves AD and ArPen. Some sort of IE/Bruta/BT(?)/LW(?) build sounds scary.
Frankly anything with Zekes is scary. PD gives 35% crit and 50% AS for 2800 gold. Assuming you have Boots 2, 15% AS runes,5% AS mastery, and say 25% AS from level scaling then PD is worth about 35% more Attacks/Second. [this goes down as you get more AS buffs from levels/other soruces]
So if you have IE then PD is worth about 40% damage from crits and 35% damage from AS for a roughly 90% DPS increase.
So Zekes alone is 56% on that. Its worth about 60% of a PD in terms of DPS. Zekes on top of this is a 36% damage increase. You just wreck things when its active.
On August 02 2015 05:05 Sonnington wrote: OK guys, Razorfins are OP as shiatsu. Just level up abilities first and they chase down champions with a lot of move speed and double in number. There's no reason to pick anything but Razorfins.
Edit: Oh yeah, for the record, the new UI is superior in almost every way. The vast majority of people complaining are complaining because it's different, not because it has obvious problems.
They're the best for damage but they give the enemy double gold at rank 3 :/
Yeah, they fuck you up pretty hard. They also run faster than you so if you're fighting in a minion wave they're always on top of you.
On August 02 2015 06:42 Goumindong wrote: Frankly anything with Zekes is scary. PD gives 35% crit and 50% AS for 2800 gold. Assuming you have Boots 2, 15% AS runes,5% AS mastery, and say 25% AS from level scaling then PD is worth about 35% more Attacks/Second. [this goes down as you get more AS buffs from levels/other soruces]
So if you have IE then PD is worth about 40% damage from crits and 35% damage from AS for a roughly 90% DPS increase.
So Zekes alone is 56% on that. Its worth about 60% of a PD in terms of DPS. Zekes on top of this is a 36% damage increase. You just wreck things when its active.
Well i mean Draven doesn't care about attack speed relatively speaking no? I would think boots 2 + yommus active is all you care for (+runes and masteries).
On August 02 2015 06:42 Goumindong wrote: Frankly anything with Zekes is scary. PD gives 35% crit and 50% AS for 2800 gold. Assuming you have Boots 2, 15% AS runes,5% AS mastery, and say 25% AS from level scaling then PD is worth about 35% more Attacks/Second. [this goes down as you get more AS buffs from levels/other soruces]
So if you have IE then PD is worth about 40% damage from crits and 35% damage from AS for a roughly 90% DPS increase.
So Zekes alone is 56% on that. Its worth about 60% of a PD in terms of DPS. Zekes on top of this is a 36% damage increase. You just wreck things when its active.
Well i mean Draven doesn't care about attack speed relatively speaking no? I would think boots 2 + yommus active is all you care for (+runes and masteries).
Yes. I was just saying that its not just insane on Draven. Its a lot of damage regardless of what AD you're playing with
On August 02 2015 05:05 Sonnington wrote: OK guys, Razorfins are OP as shiatsu. Just level up abilities first and they chase down champions with a lot of move speed and double in number. There's no reason to pick anything but Razorfins.
Edit: Oh yeah, for the record, the new UI is superior in almost every way. The vast majority of people complaining are complaining because it's different, not because it has obvious problems.
They're the best for damage but they give the enemy double gold at rank 3 :/
Yeah, they fuck you up pretty hard. They also run faster than you so if you're fighting in a minion wave they're always on top of you.
Wow I got wrecked by a 4 razorfin + 1 ocko comp. I didn't expect them to do that much damage and I was playing morde so I couldn't use Hydra to lifesteal from them. They killed me once and gave Taric a triple in another fight. Those razorfins hurt.
I couldn't get my team to try the same thing the next game. It's hard to coordinate yoloqueue.
I think any comp needs one ocko. The shield it gives is great!
The real interesting thing about zekes is that Ashe isn't bound by the same damage cap other champions are, because she can eclipse 100% crit (and so 160% bonus crit damage). So even if she has IE and two PDs she still gains 30% damage from zekes. (Edit: plus Ashe is one of the few champions whose ability set interacts with crit)
Well, Gangplank is back. They changed his base skin and made his old skin into "Captain Gangplank".
Jesus christ, it looks like utter shit. I don't even know, it looks like a completely different champion. I mean does this NEW BASE SPLASH read Gangplank to you?
Myeah, sorta reads like piltover bruiser. Needs more light, a non-stupid hat, a SHIRT, and what's with the pauldrons? Pirates don't wear pauldrons, wtf?
So if his ship sank and his crew died, where does his ult come from? Is he getting another voiceover change? Also, the patterns on his chest remind me of Braum. Nothing makes any sense any more. The first champion I ever played sure has come a long way.
Myeah I raged about it on the boards and was very surprised about the amount of Riot fanboys that defended it. Some ass made a thread about how cool it was and how "disgusted" he was with the people who were outraged.
On August 03 2015 06:12 Ansibled wrote: I don't understand but apparently people 'enjoy' GP being disabled for no reason at all...
I wasn't enjoying this lore event until GP was randomly disabled then it was suddenly like so fucking immersive I felt like I too had died in an exploding ship :>
The only lore is longform stories, character bios, and events that give me free normally-expensive things that are not icons. Ideally they also give me them for playing ranked.
Agh, I was so annoyed with the splash I didn't really look too much at the ingame model, but it's starting to get on my nerves too. It doesn't read like pirate king, it reads like fat, tired old man. Why did they give Gangplank 100lbs of fat around the midriff? I dunno about you but I don't imagine a guy becomes a pirate king because he's got big biceps, he becomes a pirate king because he's cunning and deft, quick rather than strong. This is just a fat guy.
I wont be using the base skin ever I think, but I'm still gonna have to put up with the portrait in champ select and the minimap -_-
On August 03 2015 06:57 Osmoses wrote: Agh, I was so annoyed with the splash I didn't really look too much at the ingame model, but it's starting to get on my nerves too. It doesn't read like pirate king, it reads like fat, tired old man. Why did they give Gangplank 100lbs of fat around the midriff? I dunno about you but I don't imagine a guy becomes a pirate king because he's got big biceps, he becomes a pirate king because he's cunning and deft, quick rather than strong. This is just a fat guy.
I wont be using the base skin ever I think, but I'm still gonna have to put up with the portrait in champ select and the minimap -_-
Sounds like you imagine more of a swashbuckler. Gangplank never seemed like the kind to swash his buckles. He was always a brute.
On August 03 2015 03:14 Osmoses wrote: Well, Gangplank is back. They changed his base skin and made his old skin into "Captain Gangplank".
Jesus christ, it looks like utter shit. I don't even know, it looks like a completely different champion. I mean does this NEW BASE SPLASH read Gangplank to you?
It looks like Pirate Gragas to me.
Here's ingame:
I complain when they ruin the pretty young ladies faces in splashes. Partially it's tongue in cheek, but what the actual fuck is this shit? This is his new base splash and skin forever? He's some steam punk pirate or some bullshit? He looks like a fucking dwarf in the splash.
On August 03 2015 06:57 Osmoses wrote: Agh, I was so annoyed with the splash I didn't really look too much at the ingame model, but it's starting to get on my nerves too. It doesn't read like pirate king, it reads like fat, tired old man. Why did they give Gangplank 100lbs of fat around the midriff? I dunno about you but I don't imagine a guy becomes a pirate king because he's got big biceps, he becomes a pirate king because he's cunning and deft, quick rather than strong. This is just a fat guy.
I wont be using the base skin ever I think, but I'm still gonna have to put up with the portrait in champ select and the minimap -_-
There might be a way to customly change GP's map icon. I'm not sure though, and I'm especially not sure about changing the splash art.
On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote: So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers.
Probably around the time Ekko gets the changes/nerfs to his kit as Riot attempts to stop tanky jungle Ekko, and instead just makes him even stronger.
So, probably in time for Worlds.
In all seriousness, AP junglers are still not too popular in the meta, with the only real successful ones right now being Nidalee (because spears) and Ekko (because timey-wimey-shenanigans). Diana is seeing more play as a mid than a jungler in China, Kayle goes for Devourers instead of Runeglaive (though she would benefit from Banner's stats overall), Cho takes too long to ramp up, Amumu...
Actually, Amumu might become a meta pick again once people realize they can build banner on him. Gives him HP (for tankiness), AP (for ult + tears), and CDR (for more bandages and ults), and it doesn't interfere in the normal mentality of, "get HP/stats, become the unkillable sad mummy" build of Cinderhulk, Aegis item, Randuins, Banshees, Thornmail with Merc. Treads.
Fizz could potentially build it, if we see him return to the jungle I mean. Gragas could as well, same for Nautilus and Sejuani.
Honestly forgot about Elise, she hasn't been relevant at all in season 5, or the latter half of season 4 for that matter. She'd benefit from it too, and I could see the competitive scene pick her up again.
Also in time for Worlds.
So, let's do a bit of theory-crafting. We're pretty sure that the Worlds patch is either 5.15 or 5.16, if Riot's schedule of releasing patches every 2 weeks holds up, and that tournament realm patch is (usually) a patch behind live servers. As things stand, what is your sleeper champ that'll show up at Worlds and alter the meta?
Competitive scene is basically drooling over the prospect of elise. She might have the biggest impact on playoffs/worlds because her relevance changes the balance of power over towards teams with better junglers. If she is competitive with Gragas/Rek Sai, she poses a reliable mechanical threat (unlike Nidalee) which would mean teams like Koo Tigers lose a ban, it might be the end of the Ambition experiment, and QG/iG (assuming KaKAO gets on form) become much greater threats.
On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote: So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers.
Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats).
edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms.
elise is more then relevant. On the current patch, in the hands of pros...probably the strongest jungler on this current patch. hitting ANY cocoon is basically a free kill since she can do 75% of your health easily as follow up. she barely even needs a lane to help her. sooo dangerous as a counterjungler due to her being slippery as well. in the hands of some one like rush or reignover she would be a nightmare to face
and now you guys know how I weep from the nasus remake with all these new art changes, thank god they came out with archduke nasus so he could be goofy again. that new shitty super angry nasus base skin still makes me salty
kayle could be like a niche pick against a passive team like TSM or the Korean team with madlife on it (cant remember name) but you cant play devourer junglers vs aggressive teams, wont work. See C9 vs tsm where they picked shyvana knowing they could get away with it
The problem with Diana jungle is that she doesn't offer much. She gets less gold so her split push threat and burst is reduced. She's essentially locked in to building Runeglaive which lessens her early game burst; especially since her cool downs are a bit on the longer side early. She offers very little CC and little past dive potential. Her jungle clear is great, but her early game skirmish isn't good and she's quite blue dependent pre-Runeglaive. You can't really build RoA ever and can't build Rylai's until late in order to take advantage of her shield and partial defensive stats (from abyssal/Zhonya's). She loves Zeke's but needs another diving mid/top who can take advantage of the AP/Burst. She doesn't benefit at all from Sightstone so she ends up spend more in the long run on wards than most junglers.
Conversely, Kayle offers a ton of utility. A strong 2-3 item power spike with Devourer-Hurricane or Devourer-Nashor's. Kayle's ult lets you protect key targets for a bit and gets even better when you nab Zhonya's. Her heal is small but useful utility. Rylai's is really strong on her. She really wants to have like 7-8 items but lacks the space for them.
On August 04 2015 04:54 VayneAuthority wrote: kayle could be like a niche pick against a passive team like TSM or the Korean team with madlife on it (cant remember name) but you cant play devourer junglers vs aggressive teams, wont work. See C9 vs tsm where they picked shyvana knowing they could get away with it
You forgot CJ Entus? They are much better with the non-Ambition jungler in aggression.
Also, your previous post about Elise makes me excited for competitive jungling.
This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage).
Judging by what some folks have been saying about Zeke's there is no way it won't be one of the premier items to be utilized in strategies at worlds. The numbers seem pretty strong.
i've been building Banner of Command on jungle Fizz sometimes. i can't tell if it's actually good or not but there have definitely been a couple games where my team started unexpectedly winning mid-game fights that the aura probably contributed to. with the lack of team coordination you get at scrub elos there is probably some real value in the afk lane pushing that the promote active creates as well.
all of the item's strength is tied up in the "hidden power" that riot seems to want to get rid of so it buying it doesn't "feel" good and so nobody does; but just looking at the gold efficiency numbers (boosted even higher from promote gold income) it's pretty clear that it is a strong item if you benefit from the AP. also even if you are lucky enough to have a teammate that is going to build locket, i'm pretty sure that you can finish an Aegis much quicker on jungle income than the support can.
the problem i'm having is figuring out what to build around it. even with the AP it fits terribly in a Runeglaive AP build if you're trying to snowball, but Cinderhulk tank Fizz doesn't contribute much at all without the damage from Triforce which will come way too late if you're buying Banner and maybe even Frozen Heart first.
On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote: So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers.
Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats).
edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms.
Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop.
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought.
On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote: So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers.
Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats).
edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms.
Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop.
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought.
It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee.
Oh it's much better on Nid than Elise because Elise's base is no longer impressive past early-game which is still too much of a liability to pick over Nid or Gragas. But if you're playing either, tell your probably-should-be-a-tank Top to buy it. If they're getting Visage or Veil, tell them to do basic math.
I LOVE when Riot drops newspeak like 'Competitive Integrity' and 'Toxic"
I don't know if it works, but it makes my reports look so Riot approved I totally believe everyone I report has been permed.
ps If you aren't building Nashors on Diana, you doing it wrong. It feels SO good. 15% CDR scaling blues, 5% masteries, and Nashors means late game you got a 3.6 Q, which means a 3.6 R. Even if you miss Q, your R is still up SUPER quick. But you get SO many procs off in teamfights. I know people say you don't auto much as Diana, but if you aren't in the mix autoing then Ionno what to tell you.
double ps If you have Nashors and you get 7 seconds with a turret, it's gone.
On August 04 2015 09:14 NeoIllusions wrote: I def feel like Competitive Integrity is the new Toxic of 2015.
"Yasuo AFKed after his team started losing and was apparently verbally abusing them. I really hate to see that happen as it truly ruins the competitive integrity of the game to have such a toxic player in ranked."
Well the content of the lore I'm really not a fan of. Or rather the way it's written: "here's blood and guts and gory details and grimdark characters and stuff".
Especially how MF now has the dark past and all and everything "jolly" about her is her facade for better getting her revenge from that waking nightmares-inducing dark past. Meh.
I'm so glad that I'm going to get "captain" gp for free so that I never have to play with that awful base skin they made. I'm not mad about the abs but all the other changes make him feel like a completely different character who should be doing things other than eating oranges and shooting explosive barrels. The stupid hat is a bad fashion choice but the mechanical arm makes it feel like he should be a piltover/zaun champ who super punches things or has a hidden sword hand or something. The art is not even remotely communicating the character's gameplay here.
On August 04 2015 09:14 NeoIllusions wrote: I def feel like Competitive Integrity is the new Toxic of 2015.
They probably can't put the "big" in "big, successful company" without buzzword mantras.
On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote: The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket.
I think the main reason that top laners don't buy Aegis in competitive is that it's not ideal to have the teamfight aura item on your teleport champion (along with the fact that players don't like building it, and that there are some toplaners where building for 1v1 power is legitimately important so you can splitpush effectively). However Aegis is so important to have that it's probably still worth building on toplaners sometimes, even if it means you want a second one on someone else later.
On August 04 2015 12:39 crate wrote: I think the main reason that top laners don't buy Aegis in competitive is that it's not ideal to have the teamfight aura item on your teleport champion (along with the fact that players don't like building it, and that there are some toplaners where building for 1v1 power is legitimately important so you can splitpush effectively). However Aegis is so important to have that it's probably still worth building on toplaners sometimes, even if it means you want a second one on someone else later.
I have seen Dyrus build it a few times on Maokai. But that'a Mao. And Dyrus.
But on a champion like Maokai, maybe Mundo(?) or some super tanks, I could see it being a good idea if you have a jungler or support who don't want/need it.
On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote: So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers.
Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats).
edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms.
Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop.
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought.
It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee.
How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game.
On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote: The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket.
I agree with you, Aegis should have more position mobility, but in the end it just doesn't. Let's look at the top lane picks in the meta for the Summer split according to Oracleselixer:
Maokai, 185 games, SV to increase healing from passive Rumble, 126 picks, doesn't fit his design Gnar, 73 picks, SV for increased health gained from transformation Hecarim, 69 picks, SV for W regen Fizz, 34 picks, buys SV for botrk Shen, 29 picks, buys SV for increased passive and Q healing Ryze, 22 picks, doesn't fit his design Nautilus, 12 picks, buys SV for...? Vladimir, 12 picks, buys SV for everything Shyvana, 7 picks, buys SV for increased lifesteal off of botrk Renekton, 6 picks, buys SV for Q and R heal Riven, 6 picks, buys SV for lifesteal Dr. Mundo, buys SV for passive and R Cass, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Lulu, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Rek'Sai, 3 picks, buys SV for Fury heal Galio, 2 picks, buys SV for W heal Gragas, 2 picks, doesn't fit design(would buy SV for passive) Jarvan IV, 2 picks, buys Hexdrinker because he needs to go assassin
These are all the top champions. The vast majority of them have a heal or health gain in some way that encourages the buy of SV. Only Nautilus doesn't have that incentive, but has only garnered 12 picks because he either a) doesn't fit the meta well at top or b) is far better picked to be a support.
On top of that, top laners are trend towards being greedy with their itemization due to a few factors. Primarily, the prevalence of the lane swap strangles their income early game. Secondarily, they don't have a support when lanes level out and the only backup they have when ganked is if the jungler is counterganking in the large majority of situations because the support is usually on the opposite side of the map.
Buying auras to buff allies that aren't there to help you doesn't make that purchase worthwhile when it comes at a loss of personal stats. Both Locket and SV have 400 health. SV comes out ahead in MR by 15, and that's a significant margin. Even if we were to assume that the Locket shield was up every fight, the 15 MR would still probably out perform the shield.
On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote: So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers.
Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats).
edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms.
Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop.
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought.
It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee.
How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game.
On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote: The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket.
I agree with you, Aegis should have more position mobility, but in the end it just doesn't. Let's look at the top lane picks in the meta for the Summer split according to Oracleselixer:
Maokai, 185 games, SV to increase healing from passive Rumble, 126 picks, doesn't fit his design Gnar, 73 picks, SV for increased health gained from transformation Hecarim, 69 picks, SV for W regen Fizz, 34 picks, buys SV for botrk Shen, 29 picks, buys SV for increased passive and Q healing Ryze, 22 picks, doesn't fit his design Nautilus, 12 picks, buys SV for...? Vladimir, 12 picks, buys SV for everything Shyvana, 7 picks, buys SV for increased lifesteal off of botrk Renekton, 6 picks, buys SV for Q and R heal Riven, 6 picks, buys SV for lifesteal Dr. Mundo, buys SV for passive and R Cass, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Lulu, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Rek'Sai, 3 picks, buys SV for Fury heal Galio, 2 picks, buys SV for W heal Gragas, 2 picks, doesn't fit design(would buy SV for passive) Jarvan IV, 2 picks, buys Hexdrinker because he needs to go assassin
These are all the top champions. The vast majority of them have a heal or health gain in some way that encourages the buy of SV. Only Nautilus doesn't have that incentive, but has only garnered 12 picks because he either a) doesn't fit the meta well at top or b) is far better picked to be a support.
On top of that, top laners are trend towards being greedy with their itemization due to a few factors. Primarily, the prevalence of the lane swap strangles their income early game. Secondarily, they don't have a support when lanes level out and the only backup they have when ganked is if the jungler is counterganking in the large majority of situations because the support is usually on the opposite side of the map.
Buying auras to buff allies that aren't there to help you doesn't make that purchase worthwhile when it comes at a loss of personal stats. Both Locket and SV have 400 health. SV comes out ahead in MR by 15, and that's a significant margin. Even if we were to assume that the Locket shield was up every fight, the 15 MR would still probably out perform the shield.
Your arguments for: Rumble, Ryze, Cass, Lulu, Gragas, and Jarvan all apply to Nidalee, with most of them being much better aegis carriers based on positioning alone.
On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote: So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers.
Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats).
edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms.
Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop.
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought.
It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee.
How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game.
On August 04 2015 11:54 geript wrote:
On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote: The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket.
I agree with you, Aegis should have more position mobility, but in the end it just doesn't. Let's look at the top lane picks in the meta for the Summer split according to Oracleselixer:
Maokai, 185 games, SV to increase healing from passive Rumble, 126 picks, doesn't fit his design Gnar, 73 picks, SV for increased health gained from transformation Hecarim, 69 picks, SV for W regen Fizz, 34 picks, buys SV for botrk Shen, 29 picks, buys SV for increased passive and Q healing Ryze, 22 picks, doesn't fit his design Nautilus, 12 picks, buys SV for...? Vladimir, 12 picks, buys SV for everything Shyvana, 7 picks, buys SV for increased lifesteal off of botrk Renekton, 6 picks, buys SV for Q and R heal Riven, 6 picks, buys SV for lifesteal Dr. Mundo, buys SV for passive and R Cass, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Lulu, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Rek'Sai, 3 picks, buys SV for Fury heal Galio, 2 picks, buys SV for W heal Gragas, 2 picks, doesn't fit design(would buy SV for passive) Jarvan IV, 2 picks, buys Hexdrinker because he needs to go assassin
These are all the top champions. The vast majority of them have a heal or health gain in some way that encourages the buy of SV. Only Nautilus doesn't have that incentive, but has only garnered 12 picks because he either a) doesn't fit the meta well at top or b) is far better picked to be a support.
On top of that, top laners are trend towards being greedy with their itemization due to a few factors. Primarily, the prevalence of the lane swap strangles their income early game. Secondarily, they don't have a support when lanes level out and the only backup they have when ganked is if the jungler is counterganking in the large majority of situations because the support is usually on the opposite side of the map.
Buying auras to buff allies that aren't there to help you doesn't make that purchase worthwhile when it comes at a loss of personal stats. Both Locket and SV have 400 health. SV comes out ahead in MR by 15, and that's a significant margin. Even if we were to assume that the Locket shield was up every fight, the 15 MR would still probably out perform the shield.
Your arguments for: Rumble, Ryze, Cass, Lulu, Gragas, and Jarvan all apply to Nidalee, with most of them being much better aegis carriers based on positioning alone.
Really? Because most top laners spend a hefty chunk of their time away from teammates where gold spent in auras is wasted while a jungler is almost always around a teammate when fighting starts. But somehow a position that has more selfish itemization standards than the aurabot that is the jungle position makes them better at it because of position. Okay.
On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote: So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers.
Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats).
edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms.
Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop.
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought.
It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee.
How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game.
On August 04 2015 11:54 geript wrote:
On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote: The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket.
I agree with you, Aegis should have more position mobility, but in the end it just doesn't. Let's look at the top lane picks in the meta for the Summer split according to Oracleselixer:
Maokai, 185 games, SV to increase healing from passive Rumble, 126 picks, doesn't fit his design Gnar, 73 picks, SV for increased health gained from transformation Hecarim, 69 picks, SV for W regen Fizz, 34 picks, buys SV for botrk Shen, 29 picks, buys SV for increased passive and Q healing Ryze, 22 picks, doesn't fit his design Nautilus, 12 picks, buys SV for...? Vladimir, 12 picks, buys SV for everything Shyvana, 7 picks, buys SV for increased lifesteal off of botrk Renekton, 6 picks, buys SV for Q and R heal Riven, 6 picks, buys SV for lifesteal Dr. Mundo, buys SV for passive and R Cass, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Lulu, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Rek'Sai, 3 picks, buys SV for Fury heal Galio, 2 picks, buys SV for W heal Gragas, 2 picks, doesn't fit design(would buy SV for passive) Jarvan IV, 2 picks, buys Hexdrinker because he needs to go assassin
These are all the top champions. The vast majority of them have a heal or health gain in some way that encourages the buy of SV. Only Nautilus doesn't have that incentive, but has only garnered 12 picks because he either a) doesn't fit the meta well at top or b) is far better picked to be a support.
On top of that, top laners are trend towards being greedy with their itemization due to a few factors. Primarily, the prevalence of the lane swap strangles their income early game. Secondarily, they don't have a support when lanes level out and the only backup they have when ganked is if the jungler is counterganking in the large majority of situations because the support is usually on the opposite side of the map.
Buying auras to buff allies that aren't there to help you doesn't make that purchase worthwhile when it comes at a loss of personal stats. Both Locket and SV have 400 health. SV comes out ahead in MR by 15, and that's a significant margin. Even if we were to assume that the Locket shield was up every fight, the 15 MR would still probably out perform the shield.
Your arguments for: Rumble, Ryze, Cass, Lulu, Gragas, and Jarvan all apply to Nidalee, with most of them being much better aegis carriers based on positioning alone.
Really? Because most top laners spend a hefty chunk of their time away from teammates where gold spent in auras is wasted while a jungler is almost always around a teammate when fighting starts. But somehow a position that has more selfish itemization standards than the aurabot that is the jungle position makes them better at it because of position. Okay.
Nidalee is the least qualified meta jungler to be an aura bot that I can ever remember. If you were to build her as such you would be better off playing virtually any other jungler. Her value is tied up in good earlygame damage if your lane has a snare, and hitting high-impact spears in the midgame.
Her teamfights positioning is also such that she will less often be in aura range than those other champions you mentioned. Banner Eve, Nunu, Elise, Gragas are all certainly better, and even Lee Sin is likely a better banner user.
On August 04 2015 15:48 cLutZ wrote: Nidalee is the least qualified meta jungler to be an aura bot that I can ever remember. If you were to build her as such you would be better off playing virtually any other jungler. Her value is tied up in good earlygame damage if your lane has a snare, and hitting high-impact spears in the midgame.
Her teamfights positioning is also such that she will less often be in aura range than those other champions you mentioned. Banner Eve, Nunu, Elise, Gragas are all certainly better, and even Lee Sin is likely a better banner user.
60 ap is still going to hurt on squishies If her values are screaming early game skirmishes where the other jungler is mostly on the receiving end, that's still not a problem. Banner is not a 1st buy item anyway.
On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote: So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers.
Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats).
edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms.
Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop.
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought.
It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee.
How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game.
On August 04 2015 11:54 geript wrote:
On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote: The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket.
I agree with you, Aegis should have more position mobility, but in the end it just doesn't. Let's look at the top lane picks in the meta for the Summer split according to Oracleselixer:
Maokai, 185 games, SV to increase healing from passive Rumble, 126 picks, doesn't fit his design Gnar, 73 picks, SV for increased health gained from transformation Hecarim, 69 picks, SV for W regen Fizz, 34 picks, buys SV for botrk Shen, 29 picks, buys SV for increased passive and Q healing Ryze, 22 picks, doesn't fit his design Nautilus, 12 picks, buys SV for...? Vladimir, 12 picks, buys SV for everything Shyvana, 7 picks, buys SV for increased lifesteal off of botrk Renekton, 6 picks, buys SV for Q and R heal Riven, 6 picks, buys SV for lifesteal Dr. Mundo, buys SV for passive and R Cass, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Lulu, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Rek'Sai, 3 picks, buys SV for Fury heal Galio, 2 picks, buys SV for W heal Gragas, 2 picks, doesn't fit design(would buy SV for passive) Jarvan IV, 2 picks, buys Hexdrinker because he needs to go assassin
These are all the top champions. The vast majority of them have a heal or health gain in some way that encourages the buy of SV. Only Nautilus doesn't have that incentive, but has only garnered 12 picks because he either a) doesn't fit the meta well at top or b) is far better picked to be a support.
On top of that, top laners are trend towards being greedy with their itemization due to a few factors. Primarily, the prevalence of the lane swap strangles their income early game. Secondarily, they don't have a support when lanes level out and the only backup they have when ganked is if the jungler is counterganking in the large majority of situations because the support is usually on the opposite side of the map.
Buying auras to buff allies that aren't there to help you doesn't make that purchase worthwhile when it comes at a loss of personal stats. Both Locket and SV have 400 health. SV comes out ahead in MR by 15, and that's a significant margin. Even if we were to assume that the Locket shield was up every fight, the 15 MR would still probably out perform the shield.
Your arguments for: Rumble, Ryze, Cass, Lulu, Gragas, and Jarvan all apply to Nidalee, with most of them being much better aegis carriers based on positioning alone.
Really? Because most top laners spend a hefty chunk of their time away from teammates where gold spent in auras is wasted while a jungler is almost always around a teammate when fighting starts. But somehow a position that has more selfish itemization standards than the aurabot that is the jungle position makes them better at it because of position. Okay.
Nidalee is the least qualified meta jungler to be an aura bot that I can ever remember. If you were to build her as such you would be better off playing virtually any other jungler. Her value is tied up in good earlygame damage if your lane has a snare, and hitting high-impact spears in the midgame.
Her teamfights positioning is also such that she will less often be in aura range than those other champions you mentioned. Banner Eve, Nunu, Elise, Gragas are all certainly better, and even Lee Sin is likely a better banner user.
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Banshee's: 2700g (was 2750g), 60 MR (was 55 MR), now builds from Crystalline Bracer instead of Ruby Crystal (total cost still the same, so combine cost's cheaper).
Thornmail: 2300g (was 2100g), now reflects 15% damage + 25% of your bonus Armor (was 30% damage). Rewards using Thornmail with other armor effects, allows the damage reflect to still be significant against enemies dealing much of their damage through on hit effects instead of raw auto attack damage (e.g. Vayne). Significantly weaker as a sole Armor item however. This is about as big as this set of changes gets by the way, most of the others are just stat adjustments, not functionality changes.
I tend not to buy Locket early when playing Maokai top because for MR Cowl is legitimately a good item in a lot of match-ups, and the way I engage fights I go in way ahead of my team pretty often, or try to zone/distract by manfighting 1v3 after I locked the enemy carry down for my team (so I don't die to him while I'm deep). My allies aren't always in range of the aura, and I need the raw stats to survive better.
If I feel like I lack MR (happens often, Maokai's got no MR growth so even with mercs+SV you barely get past 100 before runes) I'll build Locket next rather than Banshee's though.
I think people overestimate Spirit Visage's effect. For example, how much is SV really healing a BotRK Fizz for? Is 2% life steal and 15 MR really better than a 50 + (10 × level) shield plus 20 MR on your teammates?
On August 04 2015 22:52 GrandInquisitor wrote: I think people overestimate Spirit Visage's effect. For example, how much is SV really healing a BotRK Fizz for? Is 2% life steal and 15 MR really better than a 50 + (10 × level) shield plus 20 MR on your teammates?
The competitive community sure thinks so since they aren't actually trading away the aura. The jungler or support is picking it up.
On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote: So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers.
Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats).
edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms.
Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop.
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought.
It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee.
How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game.
Because you are wasting 1900 gold for a teamfighting aura on a champion that doesn't want to teamfight and 3k gold on 60 ap and 10% cdr.The whole point of nidalee is to kill people early and poke.Literally her only weakness is teamfighting so you are using 1900 gold to get nothing to actually help you do what you do best.It is straight up stupid.
And no if you spend your money on shit like this you won't blow people up and will be useless.Especially in pro play where junglers are starved all the time.
Also the biggest thing is nidalee is never in position to give the aura to your entire team anyway so what is the point of getting it?
On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote: So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers.
Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats).
edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms.
Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop.
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought.
It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee.
How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game.
On August 04 2015 11:54 geript wrote:
On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote: The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket.
I agree with you, Aegis should have more position mobility, but in the end it just doesn't. Let's look at the top lane picks in the meta for the Summer split according to Oracleselixer:
Maokai, 185 games, SV to increase healing from passive Rumble, 126 picks, doesn't fit his design Gnar, 73 picks, SV for increased health gained from transformation Hecarim, 69 picks, SV for W regen Fizz, 34 picks, buys SV for botrk Shen, 29 picks, buys SV for increased passive and Q healing Ryze, 22 picks, doesn't fit his design Nautilus, 12 picks, buys SV for...? Vladimir, 12 picks, buys SV for everything Shyvana, 7 picks, buys SV for increased lifesteal off of botrk Renekton, 6 picks, buys SV for Q and R heal Riven, 6 picks, buys SV for lifesteal Dr. Mundo, buys SV for passive and R Cass, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Lulu, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Rek'Sai, 3 picks, buys SV for Fury heal Galio, 2 picks, buys SV for W heal Gragas, 2 picks, doesn't fit design(would buy SV for passive) Jarvan IV, 2 picks, buys Hexdrinker because he needs to go assassin
These are all the top champions. The vast majority of them have a heal or health gain in some way that encourages the buy of SV. Only Nautilus doesn't have that incentive, but has only garnered 12 picks because he either a) doesn't fit the meta well at top or b) is far better picked to be a support.
On top of that, top laners are trend towards being greedy with their itemization due to a few factors. Primarily, the prevalence of the lane swap strangles their income early game. Secondarily, they don't have a support when lanes level out and the only backup they have when ganked is if the jungler is counterganking in the large majority of situations because the support is usually on the opposite side of the map.
Buying auras to buff allies that aren't there to help you doesn't make that purchase worthwhile when it comes at a loss of personal stats. Both Locket and SV have 400 health. SV comes out ahead in MR by 15, and that's a significant margin. Even if we were to assume that the Locket shield was up every fight, the 15 MR would still probably out perform the shield.
Your arguments for: Rumble, Ryze, Cass, Lulu, Gragas, and Jarvan all apply to Nidalee, with most of them being much better aegis carriers based on positioning alone.
Really? Because most top laners spend a hefty chunk of their time away from teammates where gold spent in auras is wasted while a jungler is almost always around a teammate when fighting starts. But somehow a position that has more selfish itemization standards than the aurabot that is the jungle position makes them better at it because of position. Okay.
Nidalee is the least qualified meta jungler to be an aura bot that I can ever remember. If you were to build her as such you would be better off playing virtually any other jungler. Her value is tied up in good earlygame damage if your lane has a snare, and hitting high-impact spears in the midgame.
Her teamfights positioning is also such that she will less often be in aura range than those other champions you mentioned. Banner Eve, Nunu, Elise, Gragas are all certainly better, and even Lee Sin is likely a better banner user.
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Banshee's: 2700g (was 2750g), 60 MR (was 55 MR), now builds from Crystalline Bracer instead of Ruby Crystal (total cost still the same, so combine cost's cheaper).
Thornmail: 2300g (was 2100g), now reflects 15% damage + 25% of your bonus Armor (was 30% damage). Rewards using Thornmail with other armor effects, allows the damage reflect to still be significant against enemies dealing much of their damage through on hit effects instead of raw auto attack damage (e.g. Vayne). Significantly weaker as a sole Armor item however. This is about as big as this set of changes gets by the way, most of the others are just stat adjustments, not functionality changes.
Thornmail reflected on hit damage too. This sounds like a very massive change to an item keeping autoattacking champions in a delicate check. So before it would reflect 180 magic dps to someone with 600 dps. Now it'll reflect 90+25*(their attack speed) if Thornmail was your only armor source. Straight nerf. Yeah good luck killing their Yi as fucking Maokai with your Randuins + Frozen Heart, oh wait you don't have enough damage for their health pool. Or if you weren't a tank Thornmail would give you that chance to duel someone who was just slightly out of range because it was the best dueling item in the game.
People already pick into 3 ADC team comps at my ELO, does Riot need to make it 4 ADC per team?
Frozen Heart's nerf is huge. Even if you remove the mana Frozen heart is cost efficient. But it's also one of the only 20% CDR items which means people will still have to build it. Straight nerf to tanks.
On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote: So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers.
Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats).
edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms.
Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop.
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought.
It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee.
How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game.
On August 04 2015 11:54 geript wrote:
On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote: The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket.
I agree with you, Aegis should have more position mobility, but in the end it just doesn't. Let's look at the top lane picks in the meta for the Summer split according to Oracleselixer:
Maokai, 185 games, SV to increase healing from passive Rumble, 126 picks, doesn't fit his design Gnar, 73 picks, SV for increased health gained from transformation Hecarim, 69 picks, SV for W regen Fizz, 34 picks, buys SV for botrk Shen, 29 picks, buys SV for increased passive and Q healing Ryze, 22 picks, doesn't fit his design Nautilus, 12 picks, buys SV for...? Vladimir, 12 picks, buys SV for everything Shyvana, 7 picks, buys SV for increased lifesteal off of botrk Renekton, 6 picks, buys SV for Q and R heal Riven, 6 picks, buys SV for lifesteal Dr. Mundo, buys SV for passive and R Cass, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Lulu, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Rek'Sai, 3 picks, buys SV for Fury heal Galio, 2 picks, buys SV for W heal Gragas, 2 picks, doesn't fit design(would buy SV for passive) Jarvan IV, 2 picks, buys Hexdrinker because he needs to go assassin
These are all the top champions. The vast majority of them have a heal or health gain in some way that encourages the buy of SV. Only Nautilus doesn't have that incentive, but has only garnered 12 picks because he either a) doesn't fit the meta well at top or b) is far better picked to be a support.
On top of that, top laners are trend towards being greedy with their itemization due to a few factors. Primarily, the prevalence of the lane swap strangles their income early game. Secondarily, they don't have a support when lanes level out and the only backup they have when ganked is if the jungler is counterganking in the large majority of situations because the support is usually on the opposite side of the map.
Buying auras to buff allies that aren't there to help you doesn't make that purchase worthwhile when it comes at a loss of personal stats. Both Locket and SV have 400 health. SV comes out ahead in MR by 15, and that's a significant margin. Even if we were to assume that the Locket shield was up every fight, the 15 MR would still probably out perform the shield.
Your arguments for: Rumble, Ryze, Cass, Lulu, Gragas, and Jarvan all apply to Nidalee, with most of them being much better aegis carriers based on positioning alone.
Really? Because most top laners spend a hefty chunk of their time away from teammates where gold spent in auras is wasted while a jungler is almost always around a teammate when fighting starts. But somehow a position that has more selfish itemization standards than the aurabot that is the jungle position makes them better at it because of position. Okay.
Nidalee is the least qualified meta jungler to be an aura bot that I can ever remember. If you were to build her as such you would be better off playing virtually any other jungler. Her value is tied up in good earlygame damage if your lane has a snare, and hitting high-impact spears in the midgame.
Her teamfights positioning is also such that she will less often be in aura range than those other champions you mentioned. Banner Eve, Nunu, Elise, Gragas are all certainly better, and even Lee Sin is likely a better banner user.
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Banshee's: 2700g (was 2750g), 60 MR (was 55 MR), now builds from Crystalline Bracer instead of Ruby Crystal (total cost still the same, so combine cost's cheaper).
Thornmail: 2300g (was 2100g), now reflects 15% damage + 25% of your bonus Armor (was 30% damage). Rewards using Thornmail with other armor effects, allows the damage reflect to still be significant against enemies dealing much of their damage through on hit effects instead of raw auto attack damage (e.g. Vayne). Significantly weaker as a sole Armor item however. This is about as big as this set of changes gets by the way, most of the others are just stat adjustments, not functionality changes.
Thornmail reflected on hit damage too. This sounds like a very massive change to an item keeping autoattacking champions in a delicate check. So before it would reflect 180 magic dps to someone with 600 dps. Now it'll reflect 90+25*(their attack speed) if Thornmail was your only armor source. Straight nerf. Yeah good luck killing their Yi as fucking Maokai with your Randuins + Frozen Heart, oh wait you don't have enough damage for their health pool. Or if you weren't a tank Thornmail would give you that chance to duel someone who was just slightly out of range because it was the best dueling item in the game.
People already pick into 3 ADC team comps at my ELO, does Riot need to make it 4 ADC per team?
Frozen Heart's nerf is huge. Even if you remove the mana Frozen heart is cost efficient. But it's also one of the only 20% CDR items which means people will still have to build it. Straight nerf to tanks.
rito has successfully destroyed my entire competitive champ pool at this point. gangplank and fiora remakes. Huge FH nerf making nasus a suspect pick against any AD top now and weaker in general. blitzcrank changes make him unfun to play as just like the old one was with the stupid self slow. All i have left is bard, trundle, and my devourer junglers which is more of a gimmick phase then an actual champ pool. RIP
On August 04 2015 03:11 geript wrote: [quote] Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats).
edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms.
Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop.
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought.
It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee.
How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game.
On August 04 2015 11:54 geript wrote:
On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote: The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket.
I agree with you, Aegis should have more position mobility, but in the end it just doesn't. Let's look at the top lane picks in the meta for the Summer split according to Oracleselixer:
Maokai, 185 games, SV to increase healing from passive Rumble, 126 picks, doesn't fit his design Gnar, 73 picks, SV for increased health gained from transformation Hecarim, 69 picks, SV for W regen Fizz, 34 picks, buys SV for botrk Shen, 29 picks, buys SV for increased passive and Q healing Ryze, 22 picks, doesn't fit his design Nautilus, 12 picks, buys SV for...? Vladimir, 12 picks, buys SV for everything Shyvana, 7 picks, buys SV for increased lifesteal off of botrk Renekton, 6 picks, buys SV for Q and R heal Riven, 6 picks, buys SV for lifesteal Dr. Mundo, buys SV for passive and R Cass, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Lulu, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Rek'Sai, 3 picks, buys SV for Fury heal Galio, 2 picks, buys SV for W heal Gragas, 2 picks, doesn't fit design(would buy SV for passive) Jarvan IV, 2 picks, buys Hexdrinker because he needs to go assassin
These are all the top champions. The vast majority of them have a heal or health gain in some way that encourages the buy of SV. Only Nautilus doesn't have that incentive, but has only garnered 12 picks because he either a) doesn't fit the meta well at top or b) is far better picked to be a support.
On top of that, top laners are trend towards being greedy with their itemization due to a few factors. Primarily, the prevalence of the lane swap strangles their income early game. Secondarily, they don't have a support when lanes level out and the only backup they have when ganked is if the jungler is counterganking in the large majority of situations because the support is usually on the opposite side of the map.
Buying auras to buff allies that aren't there to help you doesn't make that purchase worthwhile when it comes at a loss of personal stats. Both Locket and SV have 400 health. SV comes out ahead in MR by 15, and that's a significant margin. Even if we were to assume that the Locket shield was up every fight, the 15 MR would still probably out perform the shield.
Your arguments for: Rumble, Ryze, Cass, Lulu, Gragas, and Jarvan all apply to Nidalee, with most of them being much better aegis carriers based on positioning alone.
Really? Because most top laners spend a hefty chunk of their time away from teammates where gold spent in auras is wasted while a jungler is almost always around a teammate when fighting starts. But somehow a position that has more selfish itemization standards than the aurabot that is the jungle position makes them better at it because of position. Okay.
Nidalee is the least qualified meta jungler to be an aura bot that I can ever remember. If you were to build her as such you would be better off playing virtually any other jungler. Her value is tied up in good earlygame damage if your lane has a snare, and hitting high-impact spears in the midgame.
Her teamfights positioning is also such that she will less often be in aura range than those other champions you mentioned. Banner Eve, Nunu, Elise, Gragas are all certainly better, and even Lee Sin is likely a better banner user.
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Banshee's: 2700g (was 2750g), 60 MR (was 55 MR), now builds from Crystalline Bracer instead of Ruby Crystal (total cost still the same, so combine cost's cheaper).
Thornmail: 2300g (was 2100g), now reflects 15% damage + 25% of your bonus Armor (was 30% damage). Rewards using Thornmail with other armor effects, allows the damage reflect to still be significant against enemies dealing much of their damage through on hit effects instead of raw auto attack damage (e.g. Vayne). Significantly weaker as a sole Armor item however. This is about as big as this set of changes gets by the way, most of the others are just stat adjustments, not functionality changes.
Thornmail reflected on hit damage too. This sounds like a very massive change to an item keeping autoattacking champions in a delicate check. So before it would reflect 180 magic dps to someone with 600 dps. Now it'll reflect 90+25*(their attack speed) if Thornmail was your only armor source. Straight nerf. Yeah good luck killing their Yi as fucking Maokai with your Randuins + Frozen Heart, oh wait you don't have enough damage for their health pool. Or if you weren't a tank Thornmail would give you that chance to duel someone who was just slightly out of range because it was the best dueling item in the game.
People already pick into 3 ADC team comps at my ELO, does Riot need to make it 4 ADC per team?
Frozen Heart's nerf is huge. Even if you remove the mana Frozen heart is cost efficient. But it's also one of the only 20% CDR items which means people will still have to build it. Straight nerf to tanks.
On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote: So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers.
Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats).
edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms.
Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop.
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought.
It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee.
How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game.
Because you are wasting 1900 gold for a teamfighting aura on a champion that doesn't want to teamfight and 3k gold on 60 ap and 10% cdr.The whole point of nidalee is to kill people early and poke.Literally her only weakness is teamfighting so you are using 1900 gold to get nothing to actually help you do what you do best.It is straight up stupid.
And no if you spend your money on shit like this you won't blow people up and will be useless.Especially in pro play where junglers are starved all the time.
Also the biggest thing is nidalee is never in position to give the aura to your entire team anyway so what is the point of getting it?
The game gets to points where "I don't want to teamfight." isn't valid because with the state of split pushing in the current meta it will come down to team fights. Once again, I'm not saying to rush it first item either. The only time it's significantly behind it's generic item slot for damage is when you're in Abyssal aura range where she's brittle as all fuck. Other than that it's just 10AP. If her one weakness is teamfighting, why not outfit her with the best teamfighting aura in the game when the gamestate requires it and the team won't have it otherwise?
That Thornmail change. Didn't they just buff vamp on BT and BotRK like two patches ago because they felt Thornmail was oppressive? Gonna be a lot worse with that.
On August 04 2015 15:48 cLutZ wrote: Nidalee is the least qualified meta jungler to be an aura bot that I can ever remember. If you were to build her as such you would be better off playing virtually any other jungler. Her value is tied up in good earlygame damage if your lane has a snare, and hitting high-impact spears in the midgame.
Her teamfights positioning is also such that she will less often be in aura range than those other champions you mentioned. Banner Eve, Nunu, Elise, Gragas are all certainly better, and even Lee Sin is likely a better banner user.
60 ap is still going to hurt on squishies If her values are screaming early game skirmishes where the other jungler is mostly on the receiving end, that's still not a problem. Banner is not a 1st buy item anyway.
If you are not getting aegis right after your jungle item, you are missing its most powerful and important timing. If you do either of the popular build of Runeglaive>Roa or Runeglaive>AA your suppport will likely be able to finish the aegis if they go T2>Sightstone>Aegis at approximately the same time.
On August 04 2015 17:55 Gahlo wrote:
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Abyssal is not an item Nidaleee builds so it cant compete with that. It competes with ROA/AA as a 2nd item or DC/Void as a 3rd item. In one situation she is mana starved and needs to have ridiculous spear accuracy, in the other her damage drops off too much for her to remain a relevant threat mid-late. Its probably not terrible as a 4th -6th item, but that timing is basically for the promoted minion.
On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote: So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers.
Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats).
edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms.
Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop.
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought.
It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee.
How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game.
Because you are wasting 1900 gold for a teamfighting aura on a champion that doesn't want to teamfight and 3k gold on 60 ap and 10% cdr.The whole point of nidalee is to kill people early and poke.Literally her only weakness is teamfighting so you are using 1900 gold to get nothing to actually help you do what you do best.It is straight up stupid.
And no if you spend your money on shit like this you won't blow people up and will be useless.Especially in pro play where junglers are starved all the time.
Also the biggest thing is nidalee is never in position to give the aura to your entire team anyway so what is the point of getting it?
Agree with everything, except I kinda disagree with teamfighting being her only weakness. IMO she has others, but those are tangential to the topic.
On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote: So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers.
Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats).
edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms.
Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop.
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought.
It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee.
How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game.
Because you are wasting 1900 gold for a teamfighting aura on a champion that doesn't want to teamfight and 3k gold on 60 ap and 10% cdr.The whole point of nidalee is to kill people early and poke.Literally her only weakness is teamfighting so you are using 1900 gold to get nothing to actually help you do what you do best.It is straight up stupid.
And no if you spend your money on shit like this you won't blow people up and will be useless.Especially in pro play where junglers are starved all the time.
Also the biggest thing is nidalee is never in position to give the aura to your entire team anyway so what is the point of getting it?
The game gets to points where "I don't want to teamfight." isn't valid because with the state of split pushing in the current meta it will come down to team fights. Once again, I'm not saying to rush it first item either. The only time it's significantly behind it's generic item slot for damage is when you're in Abyssal aura range where she's brittle as all fuck. Other than that it's just 10AP. If her one weakness is teamfighting, why not outfit her with the best teamfighting aura in the game when the gamestate requires it and the team won't have it otherwise?
Because that is the wrong way to play lol.When you pick a champ that is good at x you do x you don't try to make him better at y.If you aren't building it first why are you building it at all?That makes it even worse since then the support or in worst case the top can get the aura by that time.Abyssal also gives damage to your teammates which is what you want in small skirmishes and ganks as a squishy.You want to kill someone as fast as possible and leave not an actual fight.
Well don't think she has any other weakness except spears being really hard to land(unless they are invisible...).
So lately I've been playing a lot of sivir and cait on my road back to dia. After IE I like to build PD, but I was wondering what the consensus is on PD vs Shiv. When you should you go PD over Shiv, and on what champions?
If you rush Aegis on a jungler, who's often a melee, frontline champion, you make yourself fairly vulnerable, especially during the 1k build-up after ruby and NMM but before the finished item. It helps against burst if the enemy has an ahead LB or Annie, sure, but you'll still die to physical damage (most comps have it top/jungle/bot) pretty fast once you're in.
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Abyssal is not an item Nidaleee builds so it cant compete with that. It competes with ROA/AA as a 2nd item or DC/Void as a 3rd item. In one situation she is mana starved and needs to have ridiculous spear accuracy, in the other her damage drops off too much for her to remain a relevant threat mid-late. Its probably not terrible as a 4th -6th item, but that timing is basically for the promoted minion.
I don't know man, looks like Nidalee's are building Abyssal pretty often in her competitive games. Oh, and we need o tell Chaser he's bad at the game for buying an entirely defensive item in Banshee's Veil.
shyv as a crutch for waveclear (I like it on vayne....and yea thats it)
PD otherwise especially with how bad minion pathing is lately.
only other time to get shyv is if you are playing an avarice blade based strategy where you feel your lane will be super passive and then you go for a fast 2 item timing of IE/shyv but I dont see how that would be relevant in solo q
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Abyssal is not an item Nidaleee builds so it cant compete with that. It competes with ROA/AA as a 2nd item or DC/Void as a 3rd item. In one situation she is mana starved and needs to have ridiculous spear accuracy, in the other her damage drops off too much for her to remain a relevant threat mid-late. Its probably not terrible as a 4th -6th item, but that timing is basically for the promoted minion.
I don't know man, looks like Nidalee's are building Abyssal pretty often in her competitive games. Oh, and we need o tell Chaser he's bad at the game for buying an entirely defensive item in Banshee's Veil.
Well considering it is the only defensive item in that match history and it is a loss vs samsung that doesn't really help your point(even though the banshee isn't a bad buy that game).
Always go pd unless you are a luckerdog or losing real bad and need to go avarice and pray.
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Abyssal is not an item Nidaleee builds so it cant compete with that. It competes with ROA/AA as a 2nd item or DC/Void as a 3rd item. In one situation she is mana starved and needs to have ridiculous spear accuracy, in the other her damage drops off too much for her to remain a relevant threat mid-late. Its probably not terrible as a 4th -6th item, but that timing is basically for the promoted minion.
I don't know man, looks like Nidalee's are building Abyssal pretty often in her competitive games. Oh, and we need o tell Chaser he's bad at the game for buying an entirely defensive item in Banshee's Veil.
Well considering it is the only defensive item in that match history and it is a loss vs samsung that doesn't really help your point(even though the banshee isn't a bad buy that game).
Always go pd unless you are a luckerdog or losing real bad and need to go avarice and pray.
So BV isn't a bad buy when the situation deems it, but Banner is bad in all situations ever when the situation deems it. Funny how that works.
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Abyssal is not an item Nidaleee builds so it cant compete with that. It competes with ROA/AA as a 2nd item or DC/Void as a 3rd item. In one situation she is mana starved and needs to have ridiculous spear accuracy, in the other her damage drops off too much for her to remain a relevant threat mid-late. Its probably not terrible as a 4th -6th item, but that timing is basically for the promoted minion.
I don't know man, looks like Nidalee's are building Abyssal pretty often in her competitive games. Oh, and we need o tell Chaser he's bad at the game for buying an entirely defensive item in Banshee's Veil.
Well considering it is the only defensive item in that match history and it is a loss vs samsung that doesn't really help your point(even though the banshee isn't a bad buy that game).
Always go pd unless you are a luckerdog or losing real bad and need to go avarice and pray.
So BV isn't a bad buy when the situation deems it, but Banner is bad in all situations ever when the situation deems it. Funny how that works.
Lol.BV is a selfish item that prevents a hard cc(and the enemy in that game has no way to proc it) which in turn makes it easier to disengage and not fight.It is funny that it actually makes sense I know right?
ironically if youre gonna buy an mr item, banshee is the item to buy on nid since it covers up one of her biggest weaknesses, a strong single targeted CC like ww ult or cocoon that makes engaging on your poke difficult
On August 05 2015 01:51 zer0das wrote: That Thornmail change. Didn't they just buff vamp on BT and BotRK like two patches ago because they felt Thornmail was oppressive? Gonna be a lot worse with that.
Yea. It looks like it entirely neuters full physical comps. You buy thornmail with 400 armor and now ever auto attack does .15[unmodified attack damage] + 75 damage. Break even point is 500 damage/attack. [or Bonus armor/.15], so about 200 damage with just thornmail and rune/mastery armor. [more damage/attack means a nerf to thornmail, less means a buff]
On August 05 2015 02:04 VayneAuthority wrote: shyv as a crutch for waveclear (I like it on vayne....and yea thats it)
PD otherwise especially with how bad minion pathing is lately.
only other time to get shyv is if you are playing an avarice blade based strategy where you feel your lane will be super passive and then you go for a fast 2 item timing of IE/shyv but I dont see how that would be relevant in solo q
Given that Zekes is very strong now, it might make sense to go back to Shiv as your primary crit item. IE/Shiv/Zekes will be 90% crit. IE/PD/Zekes is 100%. PD will do about 6% more damage from crits[and maybe 5% more from AS (max is 7% if you got PD or Shiv at level 1 and had no other source of AS at all). PD still does a bit more damage, but its also a lot more expensive. And with Zekes the bonus magic damage on Shiv might actually overtake the PD damage bonus.[especially if you have more AD as a result]
You, Gahlo, are also totally ignoring the MR difference between abyssal/bv and Aegis. At least with the first two you can pounce in and not die (while also doing better damage with abyssal). If you are going abyssal, you are opting into a more assassin playstyle. Aegis Nidalee would hit a spear, pounce in, not kill the enemy AD, then die and your team loses the buff. Her more disengage/poke playstyle means most your frontline doesn't get the benefit of the aura. Its inefficient on her in nearly every situation.
Like I said, lategame, after Runeglaive/ManaItem/DC(Void) you might want it as a luxury (much like the Banshees). Even then, however, you would be buying it so you can enhance your siege (preferable a baroned up promoted seige minion) where you get to fish for spears.
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Abyssal is not an item Nidaleee builds so it cant compete with that. It competes with ROA/AA as a 2nd item or DC/Void as a 3rd item. In one situation she is mana starved and needs to have ridiculous spear accuracy, in the other her damage drops off too much for her to remain a relevant threat mid-late. Its probably not terrible as a 4th -6th item, but that timing is basically for the promoted minion.
I don't know man, looks like Nidalee's are building Abyssal pretty often in her competitive games. Oh, and we need o tell Chaser he's bad at the game for buying an entirely defensive item in Banshee's Veil.
Well considering it is the only defensive item in that match history and it is a loss vs samsung that doesn't really help your point(even though the banshee isn't a bad buy that game).
Always go pd unless you are a luckerdog or losing real bad and need to go avarice and pray.
So BV isn't a bad buy when the situation deems it, but Banner is bad in all situations ever when the situation deems it. Funny how that works.
Lol.BV is a selfish item that prevents a hard cc(and the enemy in that game has no way to proc it) which in turn makes it easier to disengage and not fight.It is funny that it actually makes sense I know right?
What happened to "lel don't fight"?
On August 05 2015 02:27 cLutZ wrote: You, Gahlo, are also totally ignoring the MR difference between abyssal/bv and Aegis. At least with the first two you can pounce in and not die (while also doing better damage with abyssal). If you are going abyssal, you are opting into a more assassin playstyle. Aegis Nidalee would hit a spear, pounce in, not kill the enemy AD, then die and your team loses the buff. Her more disengage/poke playstyle means most your frontline doesn't get the benefit of the aura. Its inefficient on her in nearly every situation.
Like I said, lategame, after Runeglaive/ManaItem/DC(Void) you might want it as a luxury (much like the Banshees). Even then, however, you would be buying it so you can enhance your siege (preferable a baroned up promoted seige minion) where you get to fish for spears.
No, I clearly went over Banner having 10 less MR earlier and I'm well aware it's 15 behind BV.
The bonus lane pressure from Banner of Command can easily be worth the weaker personal stats. This is especially true on champions which have high poke/siege potential like nidalee; especially if there isnt another AP champion on your team who can make use of the Banner.
That's a simple/good answer. If I needed a jungler with aura I'd go with one of the tankier jungles, rather than Nid who is extremely reliant on spear damage
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Abyssal is not an item Nidaleee builds so it cant compete with that. It competes with ROA/AA as a 2nd item or DC/Void as a 3rd item. In one situation she is mana starved and needs to have ridiculous spear accuracy, in the other her damage drops off too much for her to remain a relevant threat mid-late. Its probably not terrible as a 4th -6th item, but that timing is basically for the promoted minion.
I don't know man, looks like Nidalee's are building Abyssal pretty often in her competitive games. Oh, and we need o tell Chaser he's bad at the game for buying an entirely defensive item in Banshee's Veil.
Well considering it is the only defensive item in that match history and it is a loss vs samsung that doesn't really help your point(even though the banshee isn't a bad buy that game).
Always go pd unless you are a luckerdog or losing real bad and need to go avarice and pray.
So BV isn't a bad buy when the situation deems it, but Banner is bad in all situations ever when the situation deems it. Funny how that works.
Lol.BV is a selfish item that prevents a hard cc(and the enemy in that game has no way to proc it) which in turn makes it easier to disengage and not fight.It is funny that it actually makes sense I know right?
On August 05 2015 02:27 cLutZ wrote: You, Gahlo, are also totally ignoring the MR difference between abyssal/bv and Aegis. At least with the first two you can pounce in and not die (while also doing better damage with abyssal). If you are going abyssal, you are opting into a more assassin playstyle. Aegis Nidalee would hit a spear, pounce in, not kill the enemy AD, then die and your team loses the buff. Her more disengage/poke playstyle means most your frontline doesn't get the benefit of the aura. Its inefficient on her in nearly every situation.
Like I said, lategame, after Runeglaive/ManaItem/DC(Void) you might want it as a luxury (much like the Banshees). Even then, however, you would be buying it so you can enhance your siege (preferable a baroned up promoted seige minion) where you get to fish for spears.
No, I clearly went over Banner having 10 less MR earlier and I'm well aware it's 15 behind BV.
You don't fight. You poke and sometimes try to flank and assassinate. If you find yourself in the middle of both your own team and the enemy team, either you have already essentially won the fight via a spear>pounce>execute, or you are almost surely losing the fight. The style of fighting you are talking about is one where you shouldnt be picking Nidalee as your jungler. If you want the earlygame damage and were going to fight like that, you should have just picked Lee Sin or Elise.
Now, obviously you can't be perfect, and can't always predict that in champ select, and if you want to say, "look my team sucks, they don't wait for me to land poke, I need to be a brawling Nidalee" go for it. Plus as a bonus, its not a terrible item for sieging because of the sweet minion.
While under the effects of Bloodrage, Darius deals greatly increased physical damage and applies max Hemorrhage stacks to all enemies he hits.
Sweet Jesus.
That Garen stuff's kinda strange. A bit finicky.
What even the fuck is that Skarner stuff.
We’re trying Mordekaiser out as a duo lane juggernaut, intended to step up in lieu of a regular marksmen pick.
Uh.
Secondly, even if he’s playing in lane with a support, he’ll earn full experience from any minion he’s able to last hit (support will get their usual half share of xp).
I think the Garen and Darius ones are pretty solid. The Morde one is fucking awesome and metal as hell. The Skarner one seems kind of odd to me and I'll need to see it in practice.
Well these are only one aspect of the rework. And they're all kind of dumb. The idea of a melee tank carry is dumb [because think of what that means to balance if these champions can actually be strong in a 5v5 team fight lategame]. The best one is probably Darius[he seems to lose his slow/speed up which is a lot of his lane dominance, but it also means that you have an incentive to peel in team fights which how he should be played]
Every game of League should feel meaningfully different based on the champions in it
That is such marketing BS. If they should feel different they wouldn't make the design pigeonholed to the current setup.
Because it's not different in the one way you want it to be, it's not different at all?
No. I think you misunderstand here. If they were truly trying to make the game feel distinctly different based on what champions were in it they wouldn't design for homogenous curves, wouldn't make objects such a strong focus and wouldn't design specifically for the current setup. They want the game to feel similar but have micro level differences in how you interact. That's an entirely different statement to what they saying in that post. When it comes to macro level gameplay they obviously want it to be the same across otherwise their design decisions for the last 3 years are all against this.
If they want a melee carry to be a thing I wonder if they thinking about making some kind of BKB.
On August 05 2015 01:51 zer0das wrote: That Thornmail change. Didn't they just buff vamp on BT and BotRK like two patches ago because they felt Thornmail was oppressive? Gonna be a lot worse with that.
Yea. It looks like it entirely neuters full physical comps. You buy thornmail with 400 armor and now ever auto attack does .15[unmodified attack damage] + 75 damage. Break even point is 500 damage/attack. [or Bonus armor/.15], so about 200 damage with just thornmail and rune/mastery armor. [more damage/attack means a nerf to thornmail, less means a buff]
Yeah let me just get 400 armor. I was of the opinion that Thornmail kept ADC in a delicate balance. There's no breakeven point since there are 2 variables. The target's physical damage per auto, and your armor/bonus armor.
Relevant to the juggernaut changes:
@1:34.
And yeah, I'm interested by the remakes to the champs. Just from my first impression I don't like Garen's because it doesn't really give you a choice. You're basically hoping their tank/support doesn't get the latest kill. Or you're hoping their ADC gets a kill soon, otherwise right after these patch changes you're going to see nerfs to Garen's damage on non-villain targets so it'll be harder for Garen to kill the targets he wants to if they're not villains. Or what if you're about to initiate on a Villain but then suddenly just before you hit them someone else gets a kill on the other side of the map and becomes the new villain.
On August 05 2015 03:41 obesechicken13 wrote: Yeah let me just get 400 armor. I was of the opinion that Thornmail kept ADC in a delicate balance.
Its not too uncommon. Unless you need to itemize for MR that seems like a pretty standard lategame amount of armor for a tank with 3 defensive items.
Average armor for a bruiser/tank is around 90 Base at level 18. 9 From yellows, 13 from Quints. 5 +3/enemy from Masteries. +10% bonus from masteries. Plus any particular ability or passive that might increase your armor
So with just thrornmail you have have ~228+3.3/enemy [so about 231 to 244 armor]. Add Ninja Tabi [252 <->271]. Add Randuins [324<->348]. Add Sunfire Cape [384<->398] . Add Frozen Heart at 90 armor [483 <-> 497]
So a 3 defensive + boots gets to pretty close to 400 armor for a tank. 4 defensive+boots is around 500 armor.
On August 05 2015 03:21 Gahlo wrote: I think the Garen and Darius ones are pretty solid. The Morde one is fucking awesome and metal as hell. The Skarner one seems kind of odd to me and I'll need to see it in practice.
Agreed. I have to say in general though that all these reworks of older champs are reminding me a *lot* of the world of warcraft talent tree/class remakes. I'm thinking LoL is going the same way and in another 5 years there won't be champ or item untouched. So... enjoy what you're playing now before it's reworked!
On August 05 2015 03:21 Gahlo wrote: I think the Garen and Darius ones are pretty solid. The Morde one is fucking awesome and metal as hell. The Skarner one seems kind of odd to me and I'll need to see it in practice.
Agreed. I have to say in general though that all these reworks of older champs are reminding me a *lot* of the world of warcraft talent tree/class remakes. I'm thinking LoL is going the same way and in another 5 years there won't be champ or item untouched. So... enjoy what you're playing now before it's reworked!
i think some of the original 40 are in good states, its just an issue of whether or not riot wants to fundamentally change how the game works by doing shit like removing all targeted CCs
Every game of League should feel meaningfully different based on the champions in it
That is such marketing BS. If they should feel different they wouldn't make the design pigeonholed to the current setup.
Because it's not different in the one way you want it to be, it's not different at all?
No. I think you misunderstand here. If they were truly trying to make the game feel distinctly different based on what champions were in it they wouldn't design for homogenous curves, wouldn't make objects such a strong focus and wouldn't design specifically for the current setup. They want the game to feel similar but have micro level differences in how you interact. That's an entirely different statement to what they saying in that post. When it comes to macro level gameplay they obviously want it to be the same across otherwise their design decisions for the last 3 years are all against this.
If they want a melee carry to be a thing I wonder if they thinking about making some kind of BKB.
"Meaningfully different" implies literally nothing about the macro game and it feels *incredibly* cheap to generalize the statement as such. Power curves and lane setups are really not as large of a design space as some want to think.
On August 05 2015 03:41 obesechicken13 wrote: Yeah let me just get 400 armor. I was of the opinion that Thornmail kept ADC in a delicate balance.
Its not too uncommon. Unless you need to itemize for MR that seems like a pretty standard lategame amount of armor for a tank with 3 defensive items.
Average armor for a bruiser/tank is around 90 Base at level 18. 9 From yellows, 13 from Quints. 5 +3/enemy from Masteries. +10% bonus from masteries. Plus any particular ability or passive that might increase your armor
So with just thrornmail you have have ~228+3.3/enemy [so about 231 to 244 armor]. Add Ninja Tabi [252 <->271]. Add Randuins [324<->348]. Add Sunfire Cape [384<->398] . Add Frozen Heart at 90 armor [483 <-> 497]
So a 3 defensive + boots gets to pretty close to 400 armor for a tank. 4 defensive+boots is around 500 armor.
Most people get Mercs and that's 5 armor items. Giving you just under 400 bonus armor. On most tanks people also tend to get 1-2 offensive items and 1-2 mr items. Eg. a LW or something on Garen or an Abyssal on Maokai.
If thornmail is still balanced it'll be because it's reflecting more damage back towards mages, supports, tanks, maybe fighters, and maybe on-hit builds that rely more on magic damage. Not because thornmail will still be good against the thing it's supposed to be good against: ADCs.
If you auto a tank with Thornmail as Annie or Malzahar, you could take almost as much damage as you dealt to them which is completely unintuitive. Veterans will have to unlearn whether to auto tanks.
The Darius one is fine. Everything else is really, really bad.
1. Garen: the problem here is that his mark can easily change in a teamfight and it is otherwise unpredictable. Also I see scenarios which he may want one of his allies die so he can get off a true damage ult.
2. Skarner is now Bard v2. Terrible idea and does not address his problems at all.
On August 05 2015 03:41 obesechicken13 wrote: Yeah let me just get 400 armor. I was of the opinion that Thornmail kept ADC in a delicate balance.
Its not too uncommon. Unless you need to itemize for MR that seems like a pretty standard lategame amount of armor for a tank with 3 defensive items.
Average armor for a bruiser/tank is around 90 Base at level 18. 9 From yellows, 13 from Quints. 5 +3/enemy from Masteries. +10% bonus from masteries. Plus any particular ability or passive that might increase your armor
So with just thrornmail you have have ~228+3.3/enemy [so about 231 to 244 armor]. Add Ninja Tabi [252 <->271]. Add Randuins [324<->348]. Add Sunfire Cape [384<->398] . Add Frozen Heart at 90 armor [483 <-> 497]
So a 3 defensive + boots gets to pretty close to 400 armor for a tank. 4 defensive+boots is around 500 armor.
Most people get Mercs and that's 5 armor items. Giving you a bonus of just under 400 bonus armor. On most tanks people also tend to get 1-2 offensive items and 1-2 mr items. Eg. a LW or something on Garen.
Yea but my statement was that it makes all physical damage teams very difficult. So you shouldn't be getting Merc's and should be getting lots of armor. Boots +3 armor is about 400 total armor [300 bonus or so]. Boots + 4 could be about 500 total[400 bonus] but i would suspect you would get a pure HP item [and swap the
Since everyone auto attacks and you can no longer rely on Thornmail not doing much damage early or against champions who just incidentally auto attack.
On August 05 2015 04:19 Caiada wrote: Who the fuck gets Armor Quints? Or actually, who the fuck gets 4 armor items unless they have an AD mid and top?
Yes. Its almost as if my initial statement was
Yea. It looks like it entirely neuters full physical comps. You buy thornmail with 400 armor and now ever auto attack does .15[unmodified attack damage] + 75 damage. Break even point is 500 damage/attack. [or Bonus armor/.15], so about 200 damage with just thornmail and rune/mastery armor. [more damage/attack means a nerf to thornmail, less means a buff]
We can't really judge them too much because it look like they are getting kit modifications too. At least morde.
They all look interesting to me, except morde with his current kit being unable to touch towers and being an ADC replacement.
Darius change seems like an unstable feast or famine mechanic that will prove to be a mistake, all Riot's reset champions have been unpleasant disasters at one point and are now nerfed/changed.
Mordekaiser is at least interesting. Being able to put him in an off lane yet still get full experience is a big deal.
Skarner is odd. It's sort of interesting but outside of making his clear easier I don't see how it helps him deal with his tricky team fighting issues.
On August 05 2015 04:36 Seuss wrote: Mordekaiser is at least interesting. Being able to put him in an off lane yet still get full experience is a big deal.
It's also incredibly gimmicky, inconsistent and doesn't make a whole lot of sense with how the rest of the game works. You get to fly dragon across the map though so that's something.
On August 05 2015 04:36 Seuss wrote: Mordekaiser is at least interesting. Being able to put him in an off lane yet still get full experience is a big deal.
It's also incredibly gimmicky, inconsistent and doesn't make a whole lot of sense with how the rest of the game works. You get to fly dragon across the map though so that's something.
On August 05 2015 04:36 Seuss wrote: Mordekaiser is at least interesting. Being able to put him in an off lane yet still get full experience is a big deal.
It's also incredibly gimmicky, inconsistent and doesn't make a whole lot of sense with how the rest of the game works. You get to fly dragon across the map though so that's something.
Inc lich king Morde Skin
Isn't that just a blue Chroma of one of basically 4 of his skins?
What in the fuck are these changes? I can understand and totaly get behind them making a new class of champ called the juggernaunt but whaaa? not even going to talk about garen beacuse thats dumb. Darius is a step forward but he was always a mistake. Skarner's is just a dumb idea that no one called bullshit on.
Morde sounds like something that was " a really good idea, for a joke" but the for a joke part was left out and was given to their best team who actualy put effort into it.
idk they all seem fine except skarner one. maybe i dont understand it properly but the enemy team is basically getting 3 tower things that give them free gold in exchange for skarner being a bit stronger on your home turf. how is that ever a good trade off ever in an even game lol.
also reading the comments on that article is hilarious, all the low elo trash that you forget makes up the majority of the playerbase. WTF RITO BUFFING GAREN AND DARIUS THEY ALREADY THE MOST OP CHAMPS!!
The Morde change is interesting, at least with the whole "get Dragon as a temporary specter" thing. It also makes taking dragon much more important for his team, as in theory if you get it and can have at least a bit of control over the specter dragon, you just group as 6 in mid/bot and push down turrets or just rush over to Baron and grab that objective too.
Darius change is simple and makes sense, Garen's ult dealing true damage is probably all it needed and the whole passive tick is going to be hard to balance, and Skarner's change is 'wtf is this shit' levels of dumb. Just turn the damn champion into Sand King already and be done with it Riot.
On August 05 2015 05:08 Sermokala wrote: What in the fuck are these changes? I can understand and totaly get behind them making a new class of champ called the juggernaunt but whaaa? not even going to talk about garen beacuse thats dumb. Darius is a step forward but he was always a mistake. Skarner's is just a dumb idea that no one called bullshit on.
Morde sounds like something that was " a really good idea, for a joke" but the for a joke part was left out and was given to their best team who actualy put effort into it.
Morde/nasus bot lane sounds so awesome to me.
huh? that sounds like the worst lane possible since morde needs the last hits to get the full xp. I cant think of a lane with less synergy.
EPT
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) was fun. However, I really liked the fact that you can see enemies death timers without pressing tab and you can also order enemies and allies champs in a desirable order. I order them like in LCS streams and its so easy to compare same laners who is behind who is ahead, who needs help etc.![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9YjOYdxJatM/VbLsJMCowGI/AAAAAAAAuVU/Ic1yyl64SjY/s640/fioracompare.jpg)
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