EPT! [G] [PvZ] 4 Gate 2 Archon - Page 5
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DoX.)
Singapore6164 Posts
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Medix
Malaysia180 Posts
On December 27 2008 08:39 jodogohoo wrote: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u106/jodogohoo/1a2a3a4a5a6a.jpg) I just did the guide it was sort of awesome. >_> lawl | ||
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Twilight_Templar
United States11 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2939 Posts
I like this build a lot, but I can never figure out when to push out, and when to really commit to an attack. I'm having the most trouble vs. Z builds that just tech to lurkers and expo to 3-4 gas while leaving a couple control groups of hydras around the map to prevent me getting my 3rd. After that its Ultraling, and that's ridiculously hard to stop. Pointers? (The Bible just says macro and expand... this is a little too vague =\) | ||
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Love.Zelduck
United States170 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:48 AzureEye wrote: Can you write a Z counter to this? He'd like to, but no amount of strategy will save a Zerg from its impending doom. On December 27 2008 04:22 AiurAnonymous wrote: We're sorry, but the Protoss race does not currently plan on including losing in our strategy at this time. However, there is always the possibility that in future builds this could be available. | ||
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Shauni
4077 Posts
this build doesn't include building stargate right? I'm a bit confused by reading the heavy muta part of the guide. Are you supposed to skip your build and go sairs instead to counter early power mutas? How else will you have 2-3 sairs in time to defend? Or is it after the initial attack? Shouldn't 2 hatch, and even 3 hatch mutas come a lot sooner than this builds attack timing? And another thing, what is the advantage for this build compared to doing the normal speed-zealot +1 variation build? The archons might be later, but you should have a lot of extra zealots at the initial attack... I understand that this is a better transition into midgame than +1 speed zealot build since you grab gas earlier and get temp tech units a bit earlier. But the 4 gate pressure itself doesn't seem like it'll inflict any kind of damage to the zerg. It also seems like a bad choice if you are suspecting early hydras... I don't think you can keep a fluent zealot production from your first gate with this exact build, but maybe you're supposed to adapt to such scenarios yourself as a player, | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Only when you see 4 hatch no gas should you skip star completely. 4 Gate-> Expo is possible on maps like Coloseum While 6 gate => Expo is recommended on maps like Python or Destination. The hydra reaction is something you'd have to either see with your corsair after seeing 3 hatch gas, or something you just assume after 4 hatch no gas... cuz it's pretty obvious. As for vs the "regular +1 speed/zeal" build... what is the regular build? | ||
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Shauni
4077 Posts
On December 28 2008 10:59 SuperJongMan wrote: "2-Core-Timing" says to get a stargate. Only when you see 4 hatch no gas should you skip star completely. 4 Gate-> Expo is possible on maps like Coloseum While 6 gate => Expo is recommended on maps like Python or Destination. The hydra reaction is something you'd have to either see with your corsair after seeing 3 hatch gas, or something you just assume after 4 hatch no gas... cuz it's pretty obvious. As for vs the "regular +1 speed/zeal" build... what is the regular build? Well, there is no regular... There is a lot of variations on it obviously (I think I have 3 that I use myself). But what I was asking wasn't specifics... more like - what is the reason to make archons before speedlots? If you get speedlots earlier, you can pressure the zerg into making more sunkens and needing to defend with his initial muta-timing. If you go sair and then archons... You'll be put on the defensive until you deal with the mutalisks. Maybe the build pursues the tech-switch opening left in the zerg, but even so, it's a bit vague. Don't get me wrong, it seems like a good general opening on some maps. The reason I'm asking this is because some zerg players asked for a counter for this, and it doesn't seem like they will have to change their game plan completely because of this build. It rather sounds like the toss is adapting to what the zerg does. The general midgame advice was pretty interesting. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
The +1 and speed finish together or at about +95% complete as you move out. It's like Archon rushing. You get your 2nd gas before core finishes unlike when you zealot rush from gateways first. The move out happens with 2 archons and 5-9 zealots, depending on early game ling stuffs. It's train of thought on mutas is that If the mutas came that early that they are forcing you in, blocking the attack cleanly is as good as attacking and dealing damage. Am I making sense? | ||
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Malongo
Chile3468 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2939 Posts
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
On December 29 2008 12:52 MrBitter wrote: I would really like to see a few replays with this build. Can any of you B- and higher guys share a couple? I dont know, does this help? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/10686_JangBi_vs_ZerO/vod Not Iccup, but I guess you can still see how it works. I don't know if its exactly the same, but its definitely a variation of an archon/zealot rush. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2939 Posts
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GinNtoniC
Sweden2945 Posts
However, there's a few things I'm concerned about. 1. How to put up 2 cannons at 13 supply/psi without cutting probes - how do I accumulate 300 minerals that early without cutting probes? (fine, this isn't as much about the 4gate2chon build as it is about the general cannon timing vs 9pool, but I'm still a bit confused seeing how everyone and his mom puts up the two cannons at the same time vs 9pool timing (judging by VODs, I suppose I should just grab the nearest FE PvZ replay and get the answers, so this points isn't too important). Personally I end up putting up 1 cannon at 13, then the other at 14. If I want both up at 13, I need to cut a probe - so what am I missing?.) 2. The question of getting an early goon vs not getting a goon. Getting the early goon (after 2 initial zealts) delays my +1 a little bit, making it slightly off in the timing vs legspeed. I usually start +1 as soon as possible after the Temp Archives is started. Should I wait with the goon until +1 is started? Should I start +1 before Archives? 3. Being able to put up 3 additional gates directly after Templar Archives without cutting probes. Especially if I need to put up cannons vs possible mutas at main, those gates will be very late unless I do some serious probe cutting. In almost every game, I have to put up 1 gate... then 1... then 1... having the 3 additional gates warp in at different times. Maybe you meant it to be like this, or is my timing off? I'll add the latest practise replay as well (yes, I'm churning these builds out against computer AI, so sue me) Not 100% sure all three points described above are displayed in this very replay, but I think they are, cause I keep running into the same 3 problems more or less every game. Any tips on the above 3 points would be greatly appreciated. I hope to perfect (pff, well as perfect as a hasu player like me can get it) this BO before I pull it out in a real game (i.e. iccup) Replay: ![[image loading]](http://www.repdepot.net/img/thumbs/6840.jpg) edit: Oh and I know I didn't have to get 2 cannons before Nex at all in this game, but assuming it's against a standard 9pool against an actual human player  edit2: watched the replay and saw that the +1 was timed very well with finish of legspeed, but that's only because I started legspeed pretty late in that game. I'll keep question nr2 anyways, because I'm interested in knowing people's opinion on when/if to get an early goon. | ||
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GinNtoniC
Sweden2945 Posts
I was really hoping to continue this discussion and the thread seems to be dying out. Pardon me :S | ||
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
I'm not an expert at this build, as even I've only seen it a couple times. I believe +1 attack comes before templar archives. You'll get 100 more gas before the citadel is finished, so spend it on +1. The two cannons are only needed if theres a 9 pool/overpool. If its 12 hatch, just do 14 nexus, and if there still isnt a pool, you can go gate then plop down your cannons. I'm not sure about your other two questions, but I believe your sair should be able to scout mutas before you need to put up cannons at your main. If no mutas are coming, you can place your gates first. | ||
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GinNtoniC
Sweden2945 Posts
On December 30 2008 05:10 Incognito wrote: The two cannons are only needed if theres a 9 pool/overpool. If its 12 hatch, just do 14 nexus, and if there still isnt a pool, you can go gate then plop down your cannons. I'm not sure about your other two questions, but I believe your sair should be able to scout mutas before you need to put up cannons at your main. If no mutas are coming, you can place your gates first. I appreciate your effort to asnwer my questions, but this is not what I was wondering about I know the general idea behind what you're talking about, my question was a little more specific regarding the exact timings of putting down cannons in the case of a 9pool. I talked to SuperJongMan over PM though and he explained to me how the two cannons (on maps with normal rush distances) go up at 13 probes/14 psi. The other 2 questions were more open and were meant to provoce a discussion among other people on this forum, what preferences they have in the matter. | ||
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sl
Canada239 Posts
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zerofear
Mexico44 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
And your should build hit before 5 hatch hydra. It hits when 4 hatch hydra has first 10. And for those confused, the #'s are probe count, so 7.5 pylon = 8/9 pylon. 13 Cannon x2 = 14 (nexus probe) /17 On December 28 2008 06:36 MrBitter wrote: Ok, I have questions. I like this build a lot, but I can never figure out when to push out, and when to really commit to an attack. I'm having the most trouble vs. Z builds that just tech to lurkers and expo to 3-4 gas while leaving a couple control groups of hydras around the map to prevent me getting my 3rd. After that its Ultraling, and that's ridiculously hard to stop. Pointers? (The Bible just says macro and expand... this is a little too vague =\) A Small group of hydras are owning your army? Why are you having problems expanding? You might have to wait one more cycle to wait for Storm from your gates in a bad scenario, but the 3rd should come pretty easily. If the bible if too vague, your scenario is far too vague. You can't expo cuz a group of hydras -_-;; Advice - Kill the group of hydras... and expand. | ||
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