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On June 12 2009 05:35 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
bump..but a serious question
I saw my zerg opponent going for a 12 hatch
So i skipped forge and placed my nat nexus/gate and then forge/cannon
This sped up my core timing as well as my overall tech timing
Could you also incorporate timings as well as other variations when this happens
(gate before forge?)
I'm not sure if I completely understand your question... but here it goes:
Doing the gateway first is good if you know your opponent isn't going to have a lot of early lings. Typically I've realized that if a Z does 12 hatch they're not going for ling pressure, so getting that later cannon is okay, and you really need only one since your wall can fend off a max of 6-10 zerglings. What you have to remember if you're going to commit to a gateway first you MUST make sure that your forge is going up when the spawning pool reaches the 50% mark on completion (at least). You may need to cut probe production to make this happen, but it's a move just to be safe. Your timings shouldn't change too much since you're still building what the original FE is aiming for, except you've made the gateway first, so the time between your gateway completing and the cybernetics core to start will increase. I'm going to run both builds quickly on single player and I'll post the times in comparison.
If I did this right you can begin your stargate at 4:15, however you have to neglect probe production at 14 for this to work perfectly to get your cannon in a timely fashion (I dont know the time a zergling pops using 12 hatch, but my cannon was started at 3:04). In order for you to benefit from making an earlier gateway you need to make the assimilator right after the forge and you will have 152 gas exactly when the core finishes.
The build is something along these lines:
8 Pylon
12 Nexus
14 Gateway
14 Forge
14 Assimilator
15 Cannon
16 Cybernetics Core
18 Zealot
From here I'm not 100% sure of the numbers since the game is corrupted oddly, but you will be able to build your stargate immediately when your core finishes.
20 Assimilator
22 Stargate
22 Pylon
23 Zealot
First Corsair will begin building at 5:01 doing it like this. (using the time from page 9 it should be about 46 seconds difference from when your stargate began)
After going through this I would only recommend doing this (Gate --> Forge) if and only if you know your opponent will not apply much ling pressure and is not 2 hatch hydra all-inning you 
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Pretty hard to know unless you can read the player your playing like a book. With all the probe cuts and added danger, doesn't seem all that worth it to gate like that.
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12hatch definitely doesn't mean that the Zerg is planning for a passive game.
12hatch transitions into all-in lings very very easily.
You'll get run over if a Zerg player see's your gates and starts ling production. You can't block your ramp without saccing your nat, and you can't guard your nat without easily letting them up your ramp. It's GG. Get the cannons.
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mm ok but why make 2 atrchon and not taking 4 templar? someone can explain me this?
and when (and if)i have to put down cannon on main?
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On June 13 2009 05:57 LuDwig- wrote:
mm ok but why make 2 atrchon and not taking 4 templar? someone can explain me this?
and when (and if)i have to put down cannon on main?
Because A)This is a timing build and you'd have to wait for storm to be researched for templars to be effective. B)Any good zerg will have no trouble picking your HT off if they went mutas because lets be honest, you've got a buncha zealots and 4 hts with no storm. C)To expand on that you counter the air with archons while killing the ground units with your zealots or if there are no mutas you use your archons excellent splash damage to rofl over your opponents lings.
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Can you answer my second question too?
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On June 13 2009 15:58 LuDwig- wrote:
Can you answer my second question too?
You only put down canons in your main if you know he is going mutas and that you cannot handle them with your sairs.
don't put them before scouting - as you will be wasting valuable resources. you have to be sure that he went mutas. That is why people go fast Sairs - they are not only good at attacking overlords but also help tremendously in scouting.
Edit: Also in mid game its good to put some cannons in your bases to defend against drops.
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yes but usually when i go fast sair i arrie enemy base when muta is going do pop out..it seem like little late for making cannons.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
its actually not, canons go up fast, and once u scout just spam 2-3 canons and for sure 2will be up by the time he comes.
you can also defend with dragoons+sairs if u need the time.
Edit: if you are worried send in a second scout secretly and see if he goes spire, if he does then you can plan accordingly.
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On June 13 2009 19:31 LuDwig- wrote:
yes but usually when i go fast sair i arrie enemy base when muta is going do pop out..it seem like little late for making cannons.
you should make the first cannon when your sair is making the trip to your opponents main. If you spot a spire no den and two gas and a bunch of eggs I would build 2 more cannons and a couple more sairs. If you don't spot muta then you can cancel the initial cannon (though I like keeping it anyway, unless I desperately need the resources)
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okay i have major trouble with this build. what do you do when the other person denies scouting probe, and then by the time i get my sair to scout, he is breaking my front with 20 hydras and 10 lings? or if they break my front with just 50 lings straight up... i am clueless on what to do vs this as i am still preparing my army and getting gates and archives up
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isnt this build mostly dead? i havent seen it used by anyone in a long time
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
On July 07 2009 08:17 arb wrote:
isnt this build mostly dead? i havent seen it used by anyone in a long time
because this BO doesnt work if zerg does 5hatch hydra + lurkers
this is the BO that i use to play vs Zerg that makes 5hatch hydra
you can take control of air and at the same time have a big army
repdepot
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On July 07 2009 08:17 arb wrote:
isnt this build mostly dead? i havent seen it used by anyone in a long time
The problem I found with this build is that your zealot/archon push cannot do damage to the Zerg anymore. I don't know if Zerg's would whore more drones before or what, but Zerg's seem to have two control groups of hydralisk when your attack comes. This means it's too weak to hold off a counter-attack, so you don't have time to get your third up and running. All the older VODs I watch of this build, the Zerg seems to be playing very defensively, but if you try this on iCCup now, they will just counter attack with their hydralisk and force you to cancel your third.
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United States10657 Posts
On June 13 2009 03:26 SteveNick wrote:
12hatch definitely doesn't mean that the Zerg is planning for a passive game.
12hatch transitions into all-in lings very very easily.
You'll get run over if a Zerg player see's your gates and starts ling production. You can't block your ramp without saccing your nat, and you can't guard your nat without easily letting them up your ramp. It's GG. Get the cannons.
Thats why you get good at keeping your probe alive + hide another probe on the map.
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On July 07 2009 08:34 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 08:17 arb wrote:
isnt this build mostly dead? i havent seen it used by anyone in a long time The problem I found with this build is that your zealot/archon push cannot do damage to the Zerg anymore. I don't know if Zerg's would whore more drones before or what, but Zerg's seem to have two control groups of hydralisk when your attack comes. This means it's too weak to hold off a counter-attack, so you don't have time to get your third up and running. All the older VODs I watch of this build, the Zerg seems to be playing very defensively, but if you try this on iCCup now, they will just counter attack with their hydralisk and force you to cancel your third.
when iw as playing toss i noticed the same thing, it just seems like no matter what you push with they have more than enough hydralisks to shit all over your stormless army and then kill you moments later..
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On July 07 2009 08:39 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 08:34 Salv wrote:On July 07 2009 08:17 arb wrote:
isnt this build mostly dead? i havent seen it used by anyone in a long time The problem I found with this build is that your zealot/archon push cannot do damage to the Zerg anymore. I don't know if Zerg's would whore more drones before or what, but Zerg's seem to have two control groups of hydralisk when your attack comes. This means it's too weak to hold off a counter-attack, so you don't have time to get your third up and running. All the older VODs I watch of this build, the Zerg seems to be playing very defensively, but if you try this on iCCup now, they will just counter attack with their hydralisk and force you to cancel your third. when iw as playing toss i noticed the same thing, it just seems like no matter what you push with they have more than enough hydralisks to shit all over your stormless army and then kill you moments later..
Yeah, maybe a Zerg can clarify on why this is? I'm just assuming that prior Zerg's were just playing too defensively and making too many drones, before developing an actual build order that maximized hydralisk production.
The only idea I can think of; assuming that you know your attack won't be successful, is to push out, clear your third, push to your opponents base while expanding and rallying fresh HT there and just try to stall as much as possible with your army, without actually engaging. With this, maybe even if you begin to be pushed back, you can have cannons warping with HT and storm ready to defend. Although, I am quite sure a Zerg's mutalisk switch comes before those cannons warp, not quite sure. I might play a few games with this build again and find out for sure.
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very nice guide. something every protoss player should have in his arsenal, along with 2gate.
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The build is not dead, just modified. And you shouldn't be too agresive with it. Zergs have gotten better at defending it (mainly better building positioning), but your army is still stronger on open ground (for a short period of time). Just go on the map, walk your army around a bit and than fall back to your third. You should have canons on time (no way mutalisks can come before your canons) and storm finishing very soon. So with your speed zeals and canoned third you should hold untill then. But I'm performing the build slightly different now, so I might be wrong.
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EPT
