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For Aiur!
The 4 gate 2 archon build is also commonly referred to as the +1 spd zealot archon build, but that's lame and very vague. This is not the Bisu build. This is not some nonsense theory-crafted build. It is the new foundation and manual for PvZ ever since the coming of the revolution.
It is the Holy Bible of PvZ!
Build is described in parts 1 2 and 3
Late game management tips and transitions in case the zerg didn't die yet in part 4.
Part 5 is simply a variation to consider.
The New Foundation of PvZ
[PvZ] - 4 Gate 2 Archon - AKA The Protoss vs Zerg Bible.
From http://pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=daku&no=1668
The Build - The Bible
* Simply, after double Nex, Get an archive and 4 gates. After 2 archons - produce speed+1 zealots and pressure/attack the zerg.
* 7.5 Pylon, 11 Forge, 13 Cannon (x2), 15 pylon. 18 Nexus+Gate => Main Gas, Core, front gas, Stargate, Citadel, Templar+3 gate. +1, 4 HT, Speed up, Make speed zealots... at around 8:30, attack.
* The 4 gate 2 archon build is used to fight Zerg Neo-Sauron builds.
(9 pool, 6 ling, front hatch, 3rd base hatch, gas, lair, lingspeed, spire/scourge, +2 hatch - Den+Chamber. )
- Once again, I re-iterate, this build is to fight Neo-Sauron Zergs.
- If the zerg shows switch up, there must be adjustments made, and the following will be an explanation on how to do so.
1 - The Double Nexus -
*The Build Order - 7.5 Pylon, 11 Forge, 13 Cannon (x2), 15 pylon. 18 Nexus + Gate
*Key Points
- When pool is half done, the forge must be coming up.
- Even if the forge and pool finish at the same time, ling make+travel time = finished cannons.
- Minor variations dependant on map.
- If you are given a little freedom due to the pool being late, you can build a nexus and if still given further freedom by opposition, build a gate!
- If the zerg aggresively 3 hatch 0 pools, do a Nexus -no forge 2 gate. While harassing with zealots, producing probes and teching are both possible. However, the zerg, due to making zerglings+sunkens will not be able to do anything else.
- It is because of this 9 pool is the standard. To stop the 9 pool, the basic double nex build is as described above and admittedly slower.
* The Defence -
- 2-4 zerglings = 1 photon. More lings - 2 photon. If speed up or around 12 lings, 3 photon.
- In most ling heavy scenarios, 3 is plenty.
- More importantly is the sim city + Probe/Zealot path blocking to not even let the lings onto the cannons in the first place.
- Specifically, Gate on top, Forge on bottom = No ling run by. This is an important feature a toss should utilize. ( http://www.pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=daku&page=1&sn1=&divpage=1&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=1649
The bottom picture is possible protoss walls )
- If the zerg does speed up or 8+ lings, block/narrow the entrance with probes.
- Trying to conserve 2-4 more probes will end the game. The zerg is obviously poor so there is no need to feel like you must have 2-4 extra probes working for your econ.
- As money allows, replace the probes with 1-2 zealots from the gates.
*The Scouting -
- Is it 12 hatch or 9 pool, pool timing is the most important thing here.
- then, are lings making or drones? Then 'What is the hatch count and gas timing.
- Most zergs put up the hatches they want (3/4) before they make the gas.
- By this assumption, we can usually get a feel for if the zerg has taken his 2nd natural or not.
- Depending on gas timing, Hydra, Muta, Lurker can be guessed.
- If you were breached by the all in, watch the replay with an emphasis on the zergs gas timing/usage.
- Checking for Chogoling speed up is obv important.
- If the gas has been up for awhile but there is no lair in sight, high probability of a chogoling break.
- If the scouting probe is caught and the zerg is containing outside movement from the toss's nat and even if scouting seems hard, you can't be still.
- It is good to fake probe movements in and out of the base to check for chogospeed.
- If no speed up, fake probe movement (Usually towards their choke ol) and then FAKE JUKE TIKI BARBER that shit to the other side.
- After the zergs natural expo, if the 3rd hatch is towards the main, be very cautious.
2 - The Core Timing -
* Build order - (After Gate) - Gas, Core, Nat Gas, Stargate, Citadel.
- Before the core is complete, the nat gas must be put up to prevent gas shortage.
- A goon is always a nice choice to prevent more ol scouting.
- Because the timing between citadel and robo branches are so similar, it is often a good idea to construct them around the nat by habit. Also, robos are better constructed there anyways in case of defence.
- If the Zerg's tech is late (4 Hatch Gas), corsairs are not even needed. [No Stargate at all]
* The Defence -
- If unsure of the zergs exact intentions, another photon up front for 3 isn't a bad choice.
- Pure Hydra Break - Cancel all probes and cannon like no tomorrow. Magu Magu Photon Photon.
- If hydras are trying to fast break the gate, bring a probe up to the gate and getting ready to re-construct the gate to buy extra time is a good option.
- If the Zorg went fast 2 hatch gas and the tech is SUPA FAST~ at about SG completion time, put 1-2 photon at the main.
* The Scouting -
- The Sair is better off looking at zerg intentions rather than overlord hunting.
- Just because scourge are out, don't keep the sair in your main. Avoid the scourges and looking at the zerg is very beneficial
- Post 3-hatch, if the 4 and 5 hatchery do not pop up, mutalisks all-in are much more likely.
- If hatcheries 4 and 5 are up, the zerg has less than 200 minerals. He can't make mutas!
- It is important to discover the natural gas status also. If the gas is already up, a gas heavy muta or lurker attack will be coming.
*OMG! It's not a spire!
- If it's not spire, it's ling hydra lurker.
- Since the sair neutralizing scourges are not there, Sair-reaver is a good choice. If the Citadel is already up, Sair-DT is a good choice.
- It is still possible to ignore it all and go 4gate 2 archon.
3 -Two Archons and +1 Spd Zealots -
*Build Order - (After Citadel) - +1 attack, Templar Archives, 3 gateways, 2 archons, Speed up, 4 gateway zealot pump.
- The above build is the standard but depending on the zorgs status, what comes first does differ.
- Afterwards, produce sufficient zeal/chon from gates and put down a pylong at the 2nd natural to PREPAREeeee FORrrrrrr EXPANSION~~~.
*Fast Mutal Defence.
- Even if you scout that it's not muta, 2 cannons in your main is standard. (It is encouraged that you have a bountiful and abundant 3 flower harvest)
- As aforementioned, if the nat gas is made but the 4/5th hatcheries are missing, it is wise to assume mutalisks.
- Even with an archon, without cannons/sair fast power mutals will shake you up. 3-4 Cannons at main, 2-3 sairs plz. Plz plz.
- Most Zorgs that go mutal defend with many sunkenlisks. If the sunken count looks low, poking him with your 2 archon superlot and sairs is recommended. (While expanding).
- If this isn't the case, prepare your 2nd expo! The mutals will aggravatingly rape your macro polo probe, and this is another reason many sairs are needed. Also, if you feel your probe micro sux and the mutas will rape it, going ahead and setting a probe there before hand to preserve your original intended expo timing isn't bad.
* Fast Lurkers
- Similar to mutals, if the nat gas is fast and the hydra den is fast, faster lurkers will be looking to contain you.
- Instead of Archons or Speed Up, adding only 2-3 gates + robotics + Goon range + Templar&Obs is recommended.
- Make 1-2 DTs and hide them somewhere. Later, when he is harassing your expos, your harass him back ninja style.
- When breaking the lurker contain, take a shuttle full of 4 zealots and harass the back and then attempting to break the lurker is much easier street.
- If your 1-2 DT's made it out, harass with these dt's now.
- When breaking the contain, having 1 archon is really nice. It serves as a good lead. Because the hydras and lings come towards the archon, the rear templars can get easy storms.
* Scourge, Hydra, Then Lurker/Neo-Sauron Zerg
- Making scourges to pressure the corsair while making hydras, then follwing up with lurkers is the standard.
- Until the Zealots and Archons are destroyed, the Protoss will have the center.
- At this moment, you have to make your 2nd natural, but speed up ling movement to halt this will be seen.
- In this case, instead of moving all your zealots out, send a few to confront the zerglings and to hold the territory.
- Keep pumping zealots while reseraching Storm. Prepare HT while raising a robo and get observers.
- As you pump templar, your gas will deplete and minerals will be left over. This is when you increase gateways.
4. - The Second Half Charge -
* Overcoming The Lair Timing
- Massing Dragoons and Templar while destroying the zerg's lair units and pushing the nat is the ultimate goal of this strat.
- It is recommended to be on a wider and more open map where dragoons can fight to their full potential, like Tau Cross.
- If the zerg survives and gets to hive, adrenal+swarm makes goons useless and the game will become increasingly difficult
*Split Map Fights ("Macro Wars")
- The main way to win late game ( +Hive) is to follow the zerg step in step for expo's while constructing a hanbang.
- Zealots - Archons - Templar will be the base units and later the reaver must be incorporated.
- Putting a robo (or two) at your expos will help fight defiler and zergling terrorism!!!!
- If you control the center and carelessly expand, cracklings will shake you up and ruin your pretty Nexus in an instant.
- In preparation for doom drops on the main, many photons (You will have money left, 5, 7, 10, flower fields!) are recommended. While Dark Swarm nullifies these, they buy precious time. And you must quickly defend with speed up shuttle/reavers.
- Be careful and please take good care of your corsairs. If you can gather it up, mass corsairs is very powerful, but because of the high gas cost, your army can become lacking.
- Until you are sure of victory, do not go into a zerg's defensive line. Especially don't smash into a sunken line. Concentrate on gathering an archon and reaver count, stop or slow down zerg expo attempts, and be sure to keep your econ safe of any threats.
- Got money left over? Photon Photon Photon Gate Gate Gate.
5 - Variations -
The Hungry Build
Hungry Build - 7.5 Pylon, 10 forge, 13 Photonx2 - 15 Nexus+Gate, 16 Pylon, 17 Gas - Core.
Regular Build -7.5 Pylon, 10 forge, 13 Photonx2 - 15 Pylon - 18 Nexus/Gate - 19 Gas - Core.
Corsair Timing -
Hungry 4:20
Regular 4:55
Minerals mined by 5 minutes
Hungry - 1862 (31 Probes+312)
Regular - 2118 (32 Probes+518)
- Tech is 35 seconds faster, but about 250 minerals poorer.
- Due to the faster Nexus, there is not a big difference in probe count.
So really, it comes down to - Do you want to add more gateways or have a faster sair.
- So if the Zerg goes 9 pool speed up, a faster tech hungry build seems beneficial.
2nd Nat Pointers
- To preserve expansion timing, it is key to not lose the first force doing no damage to the zerg.
- That is also known as suicide.
- If the 2nd nat is tricky to grab, like Destination, it is advised to add two more gates for 6 total before expanding.
- If the 2nd nat is close, like Coloseum, follow the guide.
Nexus 2-Gate vs 3-Hatch 0-Pool
- Ahh, so.. the no forge 2 gate expo... ~_~
- On a 4 player map, as the probe builds the forge, send him out to scout also.
- If the Zerg has 12 hatched, there will be time to cancel the forge and Nexus.
- If the Zerg went 3 hatch no-pool from here, it is easy to raise the 2nd gate.
- Like before, the forge has to go up when pool is half done.
- Pressure and tech. While your econ is superior and you can do this, zerg's larva cap prevents such growth.
And... I think that's it.
I hope you guys show the true meaning of 1a2a3a to those pesky whiny zergs.
PWAHAHAHHAAH FORBIDDEN KNOWLEDGE!!!
No Zergs are gonna learn to wall against me and not have repercussions!
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please do this for the TvZ ones please!!
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I have been waiting for this so long. When I get home I am going to read this and practice this build a couple of times to get the timings down. I've been just doing random things and not really knowing when to add gates or anything.
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I read this in the other thread and well..it made me want to switch to PvZ. Amazing work, thanks SuperJongMan.
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Thank you so much for this post! I was discussing this build with some guys earlier tonight, and honestly, have yet to fully grasp it.
All my PvZs have wound up being +1 speed zeals, and they just haven't been working that well. I can't wait to use this.
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This is the bane of my existence.
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Wow, that forum looks likes it's full of informative guides...would be awesome if someone translated the good ones when there's free time. This may sound greedy, but I think everyone would benefit from reading these Korean guides.
Edit: Sigh, now I'll get owned harder on iccup :/
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This guide makes me a sad zerg 
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Good! Your race whines too much!
There are some comments in the discussion I'll add on later.
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On December 23 2008 13:11 CDRdude wrote:This guide makes me a sad zerg
LOL. plz may more volunteers do something like this for every matchup besides mirros if you are too busy?
zvp
zvt
tvp
tvz
pvt
pvz
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The style and format are very effective. Nice job.
Probably one of the most interesting discussion points would be: what's the zerg response that allows them to come out ahead or even even against this build?
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On December 23 2008 13:15 ramen247 wrote:LOL. plz may more volunteers do something like this for every matchup besides mirros if you are too busy? zvpzvttvp tvz pvt
pvz
We shouldn't ask them for too much!
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United States10774 Posts
this build kicks ass against the popular fast spire->scourage + drones -> hydra build. thanks though sjm. (maybe you can beat my zerg now lololol!!)
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Awesome. iccup will be hell for a while now. T_T.
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On December 23 2008 13:26 Dr.Dragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2008 13:15 ramen247 wrote:On December 23 2008 13:11 CDRdude wrote:This guide makes me a sad zerg LOL. plz may more volunteers do something like this for every matchup besides mirros if you are too busy? zvpzvttvp tvz pvt
pvz We shouldn't ask them for too much!
ahahahahaha!!!!
true that.
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Hahaha SJM you just placed fear in all the Zergs here :p Good thing I"m a Protoss  Thanks for the great guide!
And I do agree that the name "+1 speedlot rush" is a little vague. Plus, 4 gate archon sounds way better :D Again, thanks for the great guide!
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great guide, I've been hoping one for this build would show up, thank you!
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Damn I was hoping this guide would never come. I'm gonna get owned by toss even more now.
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Katowice25012 Posts
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Whoa, its like all those 9000 past posts of yours into a single one! Awesome soyu.
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SuperJongMan, or any other Korean speakers for that matter.
I read the entire topic, and there were very important discussions in the replies; I really am not in the mood for translating right now, but some of the replies are great comments.
Only thing I would point out is that on python, in ZvP, the Z might send ov to the closest main by land for a 9pool build without a scout; to go 12-4 nex because you scout the closer main and checked for ov arrival can net you a loss.
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This is such great stuff, this is exactly what Artosis was talking about when he said Koreans approach strategy different from foreigners. I really feel like a few of these build guides for each matchup would be a really incredible boost to mid-level play in the foreigner community. Here's hoping for more awesome translation work!
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There was also a discussion about whether to go gas before or after gate; this depends on the situation, as gate is a very important in simcities. Also, the discussion about scouting with 2 probes, and going 2 gate after canceling forge is very informative.
Btw if you guys didn't know, 4 gate speed zeal skipping stargate will rip a 4hatch before pool build.
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This guide is great. Thank you very much.
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United States982 Posts
god damn you. You are an awful awful man. I'd find you and kill you but i play pvz as well as zvp so i also love you.
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someone please do a zerg guide 
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someone do eetttttt pleaseeee
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
very nice soyu
i am so proud
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I know right?
I translated the fuckn bible!
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timing is great but everything else is expected. And whats the difference between +1 zeal/archon attack against this?
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On December 23 2008 15:46 ilovejonn wrote:someone do eetttttt pleaseeee
ok
"make a fighting force that is large enough to delay your expo but too small to do any serious damage to the protoss, and also leaves you impotent vs tech and shuttle builds. continue as normal from there, if you somehow manage to not die"
DONT USE FD
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Wow super guide, thanks man!
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Shhhh... - -;; the TvP guide was gonna be FD =(
And the ZvP guide was gonna be the hydralisk guide =(.
You ruined my conspiracy to imbafy P.
I think I will do the ZvP Muta Hydra Guide next. It's a serious one -_-;
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gee zvp was hard enough already
the zvp one better be up next to balance the field!
awesome stuff though
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Awesome thread man!! thxthxthx
On December 23 2008 12:43 SuperJongMan wrote:The Hungry Build+ Show Spoiler +
Hungry Build - 7.5 Pylon, 10 forge, 13 Photonx2 - 15 Nexus+Gate, 16 Pylon, 17 Gas - Core.
Regular Build -7.5 Pylon, 10 forge, 13 Photonx2 - 15 Pylon - 18 Nexus/Gate - 19 Gas - Core.
Corsair Timing -
Hungry 4:20
Regular 4:55
Minerals mined by 5 minutes
Hungry - 1862 (31 Probes+312)
Regular - 2118 (32 Probes+518)
- Tech is 35 seconds faster, but about 250 minerals poorer.
- Due to the faster Nexus, there is not a big difference in probe count.
So really, it comes down to - Do you want to add more gateways or have a faster sair.
- So if the Zerg goes 9 pool speed up, a faster tech hungry build seems beneficial.
I wanted to know these details for soo long!
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
WTF SUPERJongman suddenly did something so useful? i always thought u just post ..semi useful korean info. and your own random stuff 
THANKS!! even though im not toss user this is all very intersting :D:D
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Thanks a lot for this man. Can you translate some other P guides tho? Babelfish sucks.
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Thanks SuperJongMan! Good in-depth guide
For Aiur!
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Thanks for the translation.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
is FAKE JUKE TIKI BARBER THAT SHIT a common korean phrase?
=P amazing guide!
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
SJM + strat forum contribution = ??????????????
DOES NOT COMPUUUUUUUUTE
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This is the build of that "perfect build" right?
Seems very solid thanks!
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SuperJongMan.... BLESS YOU! I have tremendous trouble with PvZ and this is exactly what the doctor ordered...xD
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I've been reading up some of the guides in there, and some of them are actually kinda bad, hahahaha.
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Can someone explain why 18nexus? Isn't that a bit late?
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On December 23 2008 13:32 PH wrote:
Awesome. iccup will be hell for a while now. T_T.
You mean for forever? Why would they stop the perfect and winning playing style?
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On December 24 2008 02:24 sl wrote:
Can someone explain why 18nexus? Isn't that a bit late?
For safety, im sure big 4 player maps allow for 14 nexus.
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On December 24 2008 02:54 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2008 13:32 PH wrote:
Awesome. iccup will be hell for a while now. T_T. You mean for forever? Why would they stop the perfect and winning playing style?
Because in time zergs will figure out something that will counter this build.
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On December 24 2008 03:15 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2008 02:54 Zoler wrote:On December 23 2008 13:32 PH wrote:
Awesome. iccup will be hell for a while now. T_T. You mean for forever? Why would they stop the perfect and winning playing style? Because in time zergs will figure out something that will counter this build.
4pool ftw
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lol, O yeah??
They actually have a guide to how progamers block 5 pool and tips etc.
Based off of quite a few players, most recently, eStro's Sangho's 5pool defence.
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On December 23 2008 22:42 Bekele wrote:
Thanks a lot for this man. Can you translate some other P guides tho? Babelfish sucks.
This covers pretty much half of PvZ -_-;;
Doing Sair/Reaver or Sair/DT from the info here is not difficult.
Minor timing/build adjustments but all the important defenses are there.
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On December 24 2008 04:18 SuperJongMan wrote:
lol, O yeah??
They actually have a guide to how progamers block 5 pool and tips etc.
Based off of quite a few players, most recently, eStro's Sangho's 5pool defence.
I dont get a tip besides pulling all of your probes and holding them in a line in front of your cannons, or if you think they will be late, abandon your natural and cannon in your main.
Are there still tips to stop 5 pool
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On December 24 2008 04:24 Hyperionnn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2008 04:18 SuperJongMan wrote:
lol, O yeah??
They actually have a guide to how progamers block 5 pool and tips etc.
Based off of quite a few players, most recently, eStro's Sangho's 5pool defence. I dont get a tip besides pulling all of your probes and holding them in a line in front of your cannons, or if you think they will be late, abandon your natural and cannon in your main. Are there still tips to stop 5 pool
It's like building placement tips, probe movements, and how to play in case you do have to cancel nexus.
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Someone should put this in the "Recommended Threads" sticky for PvZ
imo
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I second chameleonia. Excellent guide. Teaches not only a specific BO, but also Zerg moves and how to react to them.
I wish I could read Korean XP that PGR site looks like it's full of great guides.
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Good God.
Reading this guide compelled me to sift through the rest of the material on pgr21 and try to translate. I completely forgot that I am hardly fluent in Korean. It took me several minutes to translate the title of one guide, and all it came down to was reading phonetically English words spelled in Korean.
Poo-roh-Gae-Eem-Moo. etc.etc.
-.-
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Very well written! I'll definitely give this a read when I get home.
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Can you write a Z counter to this?
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Thanks a lot! This is actually really close to what i've been doing recently in PvZ, but it's nice to know the korean timings to get the most efficient build
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Exceedingly nice guide, it incorporates so many aspects of the matchup, even some that are not specific to the build.
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nice strategy and nice explanation
if u see den or den/spire dont go more then 1 sair and save gas for goon/ob speed faster tech and higher upgrades
watching lately pvz in kor league with mass sair +1/reaver/zealot style,zerg starting to kill that sairs really easily and reaver harasses doesnt do much dmg lately due to good hydra micro or drone burrowing
rather spend gas for early upgrades or high templars
if u lose that 1st sair start another one to go one more scouting in betwen your 2nd expo and first coming out or first battle to dont get countered or fucked up by switch muta counter.
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Whoa nice this is sick. I always wanted to see a nice solid BO written down like this. Plzzzzz moreeeee (especially PvT, i suck at that mu )
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You know... I've raped a lot of people with surprise 4 gate builds. Generally Z will assume you're doing a safe expo with some sort of quick tech as defense, like sair/dt. When Othello was MOTW I think I went like 10-1 doing that vs B/B+ Koreans a couple of seasons ago. You just have to hide it well and watch them closely so you get the right upgrades/tech/units... sometimes you'll want zeal/temp, other zeal archon, sometimes even zeal/dt (6 zeals 6 dt are pretty harsh vs an unprepared zerg).
Fun stuff.
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Good job, the guide was even entertaining to read.
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THANK YOU!!!
I couldn't keep up after I came back to bw after a year break. Now I see how fe can actually win me a game :D
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On December 23 2008 12:43 SuperJongMan wrote:
- If no speed up, fake probe movement (Usually towards their choke ol) and then FAKE JUKE TIKI BARBER that shit to the other side.
I just loved this quote =P Tiki Barber hehe Brian Westbrook is better =P Or you can just truck with Brandon Jacobs =D
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Cool! Thx for the guide SJM :D
Edit: I shall refer to this build as "The Bible"
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On December 26 2008 04:14 MorningMusume11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2008 12:43 SuperJongMan wrote:
- If no speed up, fake probe movement (Usually towards their choke ol) and then FAKE JUKE TIKI BARBER that shit to the other side.
I just loved this quote =P Tiki Barber hehe Brian Westbrook is better =P Or you can just truck with Brandon Jacobs =D
Plz, don't even compare. Tiki doesn't even run anymore and no Eagle can compare. Jacobs wouldn't even run if Tiki felt like playing. -_-;; Tiki Tiki Tiki, he is the Ultimate Warrior. Plus, he's tele-genic. Sorta like George Foreman is ~_~ You have terrible taste.
Why did I ramble about such things? Cuz I updated the guide and no 12-girl Japanese teenie bop band lover is gonna tell me about no runnin backs. You never touched a football in your life!!!!!
I think I am finishing up most things, but PvZ is a stupid match up with so many variables and to sort through comments to see who's are worthwhile and who's are absolutely jokes are hard. Then you have to translate it... Then you have to... ... O that's it. But it's still a pain.
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dont encourage protoss players plz, iccup has too many
ROFL
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I was reluctant to use this build because I'm so used to my 4-6 sair, reaver harass into hanbang off 2 base. I finally used it on Destination and won. I love this build now and it's much better for these newer maps.
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On December 27 2008 08:39 jodogohoo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I just did the guide it was sort of awesome. >_>
lawl
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wow....great advice absolutely valuable
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Ok, I have questions.
I like this build a lot, but I can never figure out when to push out, and when to really commit to an attack. I'm having the most trouble vs. Z builds that just tech to lurkers and expo to 3-4 gas while leaving a couple control groups of hydras around the map to prevent me getting my 3rd. After that its Ultraling, and that's ridiculously hard to stop.
Pointers?
(The Bible just says macro and expand... this is a little too vague =\)
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On December 25 2008 06:48 AzureEye wrote:
Can you write a Z counter to this?
He'd like to, but no amount of strategy will save a Zerg from its impending doom.
On December 27 2008 04:22 AiurAnonymous wrote:
We're sorry, but the Protoss race does not currently plan on including losing in our strategy at this time. However, there is always the possibility that in future builds this could be available.
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I'm a bit baffled as to how this thread reached 5 pages but no real discussion on the build itself...
this build doesn't include building stargate right? I'm a bit confused by reading the heavy muta part of the guide. Are you supposed to skip your build and go sairs instead to counter early power mutas? How else will you have 2-3 sairs in time to defend? Or is it after the initial attack? Shouldn't 2 hatch, and even 3 hatch mutas come a lot sooner than this builds attack timing?
And another thing, what is the advantage for this build compared to doing the normal speed-zealot +1 variation build? The archons might be later, but you should have a lot of extra zealots at the initial attack... I understand that this is a better transition into midgame than +1 speed zealot build since you grab gas earlier and get temp tech units a bit earlier. But the 4 gate pressure itself doesn't seem like it'll inflict any kind of damage to the zerg. It also seems like a bad choice if you are suspecting early hydras... I don't think you can keep a fluent zealot production from your first gate with this exact build, but maybe you're supposed to adapt to such scenarios yourself as a player,
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"2-Core-Timing" says to get a stargate.
Only when you see 4 hatch no gas should you skip star completely.
4 Gate-> Expo is possible on maps like Coloseum
While 6 gate => Expo is recommended on maps like Python or Destination.
The hydra reaction is something you'd have to either see with your corsair after seeing 3 hatch gas, or something you just assume after 4 hatch no gas... cuz it's pretty obvious.
As for vs the "regular +1 speed/zeal" build... what is the regular build?
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On December 28 2008 10:59 SuperJongMan wrote:
"2-Core-Timing" says to get a stargate.
Only when you see 4 hatch no gas should you skip star completely.
4 Gate-> Expo is possible on maps like Coloseum
While 6 gate => Expo is recommended on maps like Python or Destination.
The hydra reaction is something you'd have to either see with your corsair after seeing 3 hatch gas, or something you just assume after 4 hatch no gas... cuz it's pretty obvious.
As for vs the "regular +1 speed/zeal" build... what is the regular build?
Well, there is no regular... There is a lot of variations on it obviously (I think I have 3 that I use myself). But what I was asking wasn't specifics... more like - what is the reason to make archons before speedlots? If you get speedlots earlier, you can pressure the zerg into making more sunkens and needing to defend with his initial muta-timing. If you go sair and then archons... You'll be put on the defensive until you deal with the mutalisks. Maybe the build pursues the tech-switch opening left in the zerg, but even so, it's a bit vague. Don't get me wrong, it seems like a good general opening on some maps. The reason I'm asking this is because some zerg players asked for a counter for this, and it doesn't seem like they will have to change their game plan completely because of this build. It rather sounds like the toss is adapting to what the zerg does.
The general midgame advice was pretty interesting.
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It is the fastest possible attack with FE+superlot/archon.
The +1 and speed finish together or at about +95% complete as you move out.
It's like Archon rushing.
You get your 2nd gas before core finishes unlike when you zealot rush from gateways first.
The move out happens with 2 archons and 5-9 zealots, depending on early game ling stuffs.
It's train of thought on mutas is that If the mutas came that early that they are forcing you in, blocking the attack cleanly is as good as attacking and dealing damage.
Am I making sense?
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I love you sjm. I normally play on iccup, and create a game named: D/D+ NoZ. Now i can play against zerg too, so good!!! i will post my results in a couple weeks. More! more! the people is hungry for more guides.
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I would really like to see a few replays with this build. Can any of you B- and higher guys share a couple?
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On December 29 2008 12:52 MrBitter wrote:
I would really like to see a few replays with this build. Can any of you B- and higher guys share a couple?
I dont know, does this help?
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/10686_JangBi_vs_ZerO/vod
Not Iccup, but I guess you can still see how it works.
I don't know if its exactly the same, but its definitely a variation of an archon/zealot rush.
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Great VOD, perfect example. Thanks a ton. If anyone has replays, those would still be majorly appreciated.
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I took a few hours this morning on the overplayed map Python and tried to get the exact timings down for this build.
However, there's a few things I'm concerned about.
1. How to put up 2 cannons at 13 supply/psi without cutting probes - how do I accumulate 300 minerals that early without cutting probes?
(fine, this isn't as much about the 4gate2chon build as it is about the general cannon timing vs 9pool, but I'm still a bit confused seeing how everyone and his mom puts up the two cannons at the same time vs 9pool timing (judging by VODs, I suppose I should just grab the nearest FE PvZ replay and get the answers, so this points isn't too important).
Personally I end up putting up 1 cannon at 13, then the other at 14. If I want both up at 13, I need to cut a probe - so what am I missing?.)
2. The question of getting an early goon vs not getting a goon. Getting the early goon (after 2 initial zealts) delays my +1 a little bit, making it slightly off in the timing vs legspeed.
I usually start +1 as soon as possible after the Temp Archives is started. Should I wait with the goon until +1 is started? Should I start +1 before Archives?
3. Being able to put up 3 additional gates directly after Templar Archives without cutting probes.
Especially if I need to put up cannons vs possible mutas at main, those gates will be very late unless I do some serious probe cutting.
In almost every game, I have to put up 1 gate... then 1... then 1... having the 3 additional gates warp in at different times. Maybe you meant it to be like this, or is my timing off?
I'll add the latest practise replay as well (yes, I'm churning these builds out against computer AI, so sue me) Not 100% sure all three points described above are displayed in this very replay, but I think they are, cause I keep running into the same 3 problems more or less every game.
Any tips on the above 3 points would be greatly appreciated.
I hope to perfect (pff, well as perfect as a hasu player like me can get it) this BO before I pull it out in a real game (i.e. iccup)
Replay:
edit: Oh and I know I didn't have to get 2 cannons before Nex at all in this game, but assuming it's against a standard 9pool against an actual human player
edit2: watched the replay and saw that the +1 was timed very well with finish of legspeed, but that's only because I started legspeed pretty late in that game.
I'll keep question nr2 anyways, because I'm interested in knowing people's opinion on when/if to get an early goon.
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I'm going to do a shady thing and bump myself.
I was really hoping to continue this discussion and the thread seems to be dying out.
Pardon me :S
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@ GinNtoniC
I'm not an expert at this build, as even I've only seen it a couple times. I believe +1 attack comes before templar archives. You'll get 100 more gas before the citadel is finished, so spend it on +1.
The two cannons are only needed if theres a 9 pool/overpool. If its 12 hatch, just do 14 nexus, and if there still isnt a pool, you can go gate then plop down your cannons. I'm not sure about your other two questions, but I believe your sair should be able to scout mutas before you need to put up cannons at your main. If no mutas are coming, you can place your gates first.
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On December 30 2008 05:10 Incognito wrote:
The two cannons are only needed if theres a 9 pool/overpool. If its 12 hatch, just do 14 nexus, and if there still isnt a pool, you can go gate then plop down your cannons. I'm not sure about your other two questions, but I believe your sair should be able to scout mutas before you need to put up cannons at your main. If no mutas are coming, you can place your gates first.
I appreciate your effort to asnwer my questions, but this is not what I was wondering about
I know the general idea behind what you're talking about, my question was a little more specific regarding the exact timings of putting down cannons in the case of a 9pool.
I talked to SuperJongMan over PM though and he explained to me how the two cannons (on maps with normal rush distances) go up at 13 probes/14 psi.
The other 2 questions were more open and were meant to provoce a discussion among other people on this forum, what preferences they have in the matter.
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If I'm on my way to +1zeal/archon and he does 5 hatch hydra, is the proper counter to not make archons and keep those 4 templars for storm?
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btw wich your best rank on icc? ( to the guy wrote this guide).
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D-
And your should build hit before 5 hatch hydra. It hits when 4 hatch hydra has first 10.
And for those confused, the #'s are probe count, so 7.5 pylon = 8/9 pylon.
13 Cannon x2 = 14 (nexus probe) /17
On December 28 2008 06:36 MrBitter wrote:
Ok, I have questions.
I like this build a lot, but I can never figure out when to push out, and when to really commit to an attack. I'm having the most trouble vs. Z builds that just tech to lurkers and expo to 3-4 gas while leaving a couple control groups of hydras around the map to prevent me getting my 3rd. After that its Ultraling, and that's ridiculously hard to stop.
Pointers?
(The Bible just says macro and expand... this is a little too vague =\)
A Small group of hydras are owning your army?
Why are you having problems expanding? You might have to wait one more cycle to wait for Storm from your gates in a bad scenario, but the 3rd should come pretty easily. If the bible if too vague, your scenario is far too vague.
You can't expo cuz a group of hydras -_-;;
Advice - Kill the group of hydras... and expand.
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On January 01 2009 03:41 zerofear wrote:
btw wich your best rank on icc? ( to the guy wrote this guide).
This is a translated guide; it wasn't created here.
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On December 30 2008 05:10 Incognito wrote:
@ GinNtoniC
I'm not an expert at this build, as even I've only seen it a couple times. I believe +1 attack comes before templar archives. You'll get 100 more gas before the citadel is finished, so spend it on +1.
The two cannons are only needed if theres a 9 pool/overpool. If its 12 hatch, just do 14 nexus, and if there still isnt a pool, you can go gate then plop down your cannons. I'm not sure about your other two questions, but I believe your sair should be able to scout mutas before you need to put up cannons at your main. If no mutas are coming, you can place your gates first.
You're absolutely correct about that first statement. You normally get +1 as soon as you have gas for it after the citadel. You will still be able to afford a corsair, zeal speed and temp archives as soon as they can be built if you made your second assimilator at the apropriate time.
Also from what I can tell from pro games and most high level protoss players they usually do 2 cannons before nex vs 9 pool and overpool like you said, 1 cannon nex vs 12 pool and nex first vs 13 hatch. But that's on most of the maps played right now and if the distances get shorter or further you might get away with different builds so I'd say it's best to play by heart. Try and time it by seing hp on the pool.
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On December 23 2008 12:43 SuperJongMan wrote:
- Because the timing between citadel and robo branches are so similar, it is often a good idea to construct them around the nat by habit. Also, robos are better constructed there anyways in case of defence.
I love the guide...thanks so much for sharing dude. I was wondering if you could clarify this statement a little, as I didn't really understand it.
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awesome awesome awesome, been waitin for this +1 speedlot build for awhile.
Why not just call it 4gate timing push?
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On January 01 2009 11:51 Centric wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2008 12:43 SuperJongMan wrote:
- Because the timing between citadel and robo branches are so similar, it is often a good idea to construct them around the nat by habit. Also, robos are better constructed there anyways in case of defence. I love the guide...thanks so much for sharing dude. I was wondering if you could clarify this statement a little, as I didn't really understand it.
If you build stuff by the nat,
advantages = Harder to scout since cannons are already there.
If you go robo, and a fast hydra break comes, the key reaver may come and save you. If misplaced like by main nexus, -_-;; You can see how that would be problematic as reavers are no speedy.
The disadvantages to such a build placement would be if you suck at placement and trap yourself up... but I guess sucking is a pretty general disadvantage all around.
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Where's the PvT bible from Stork?
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protoss bible vs terran is marco like hell 1a2a3a
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Why isn't this in the recommended threads yet?
O.O
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Would love to see some B/C replays of this build to see what the timing is relative to the zerg's build and how to react to different variations.
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On January 04 2009 12:44 zeppelin wrote:
Would love to see some B/C replays of this build to see what the timing is relative to the zerg's build and how to react to different variations.
But it is already explained. Play the build out just as described and you will clearly see that just about everything in this guide is accurate. This is how I've been playing my PvZ lately and it makes the match-up even more interesting (though I find PvZ to be the most interesting MU).
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Russian Federation376 Posts
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delete this hahahah i am already a sad D+ zerg player
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Thank you for this guide, before reading this guide my stats on iccup were 16/37 (16 wins vs Terran/Protoss with 34 losses vs Zerg.. just couldnt beat them). Now ive won my past 2 games playing Zerg.
Just curious, do you have any pictures of how to setup your FE with cannons to protect your gateway from hydra's? and once my corsair spots the All-In Hydra Push.. how many cannons should i be placing down?
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On January 05 2009 09:54 Crompee wrote:
Just curious, do you have any pictures of how to setup your FE with cannons to protect your gateway from hydra's? and once my corsair spots the All-In Hydra Push.. how many cannons should i be placing down?
On December 23 2008 12:43 SuperJongMan wrote:
* The Defence -
- If unsure of the zergs exact intentions, another photon up front for 3 isn't a bad choice.
- Pure Hydra Break - Cancel all probes and cannon like no tomorrow. Magu Magu Photon Photon.
- If hydras are trying to fast break the gate, bring a probe up to the gate and getting ready to re-construct the gate to buy extra time is a good option.
- If the Zorg went fast 2 hatch gas and the tech is SUPA FAST~ at about SG completion time, put 1-2 photon at the main.
and
Building Placement - http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62652
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WTFz yo. There were also pictures in the guide -_-;;
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are there any plans to get any of the ZvP guides translated? That would be immense
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On December 23 2008 12:43 SuperJongMan wrote:
- If the Zorg went fast 2 hatch gas and the tech is SUPA FAST~ at about SG completion time, put 1-2 photon at the main.
what is SG completion time? sorry if its a dumb question...
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when your stargate finishes
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On January 04 2009 13:14 Amber[LighT] wrote:
But it is already explained. Play the build out just as described and you will clearly see that just about everything in this guide is accurate. This is how I've been playing my PvZ lately and it makes the match-up even more interesting (though I find PvZ to be the most interesting MU).
Assuming they're going 5 hatch (i.e. not doing anything to force you to put down more cannons) how much pop do you have when you move out? What's your response to a pure hydra build? It would just be interesting to see players better than me executing the build so that I'm able to fix the mistakes I'm making.
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The guide says that when you see him go three hatch before pool you should go nexus and then double gate, no forge to apply pressure. But whenever i do this, by the time my first two zeals reach his base he's got like 8 lings, and by the time i get 4 he has a zillion of lings. And i always get overrun because i lack cannons. Is that a wrong counter suggested in the build?
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On January 06 2009 23:12 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2008 12:43 SuperJongMan wrote:
- If the Zorg went fast 2 hatch gas and the tech is SUPA FAST~ at about SG completion time, put 1-2 photon at the main.
what is SG completion time? sorry if its a dumb question...
I believe SG = stargate
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Katowice25012 Posts
On January 08 2009 06:59 Gnojfatelob wrote:
The guide says that when you see him go three hatch before pool you should go nexus and then double gate, no forge to apply pressure. But whenever i do this, by the time my first two zeals reach his base he's got like 8 lings, and by the time i get 4 he has a zillion of lings. And i always get overrun because i lack cannons. Is that a wrong counter suggested in the build?
I haven't had that counter work yet either, but my micro tends to be really poor anyway. Does anyone have replays of how to play it vs 3hatch before pool?
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On January 08 2009 20:21 heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2009 06:59 Gnojfatelob wrote:
The guide says that when you see him go three hatch before pool you should go nexus and then double gate, no forge to apply pressure. But whenever i do this, by the time my first two zeals reach his base he's got like 8 lings, and by the time i get 4 he has a zillion of lings. And i always get overrun because i lack cannons. Is that a wrong counter suggested in the build? I haven't had that counter work yet either, but my micro tends to be really poor anyway. Does anyone have replays of how to play it vs 3hatch before pool?
As a zerg I smile when they do this, even if I went 3hatch before pool. So far I've never had problems with it, just defended and then played whatever way I wanted as he'd be late with his tech due to this.
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Calgary25969 Posts
Wow this is very complete and well-written. Thanks #1 student. Added to the recommended threads.
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Nice
Cant wait to try it against the spire/scourage + 5 hatch hydra build
ive always had trouble with it since i add gate ways before researching storm and robo
one question i have is
when the zerg does the neo_sauron zerg build, as it is called in this guide
do i cut sair production?
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To do the 4gate 2 archon, yes.
But if your sair sees otherwise, DT/Sair, Reaver/Sair are viable obv.
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If it is a 2 map and he 5 pools you're kinda screwed :-s
I think ... i mean, it happened to me ...
But that could also be because i suck xD
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On January 12 2009 07:59 Sily wrote:
If it is a 2 map and he 5 pools you're kinda screwed :-s
I think ... i mean, it happened to me ...
But that could also be because i suck xD
no man
ive seen pro gamers come back from being 5 pooled in a 2 player map
all you have to do is scout either after pylon or forge
and by the time you see the 5 pool, which will be quickly since its a 2 player map
you build a pylon next to your main nexus
then a cannon in the main where it protects the nexus
Let the zerg have the forge if he decides to take it since you dun need more than one cannon
taking out the forge will just mean your cannon goes up by the time he is inside your main
If the zerg runs by the forge bring all your probes around the cannon so the zerglings can't attack it. Sure the zerg will prob get 2 - 4 or even 5 probes
but the cannon morphs in and once the 6 zerglings dies you take economic lead
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I have some questions.
On December 23 2008 12:43 SuperJongMan wrote:
Corsair Timing -
Hungry 4:20
Regular 4:55
Is it possible? Did anyone check it out? I watched some IefNaij replays and he goes FE into Stargate+Templar tech (he +1 ground earlier and goes second gas after core is built). So his corsair timing is like 6:30.
On December 23 2008 12:43 SuperJongMan wrote:
Minerals mined by 5 minutes
Hungry - 1862 (31 Probes+312)
Regular - 2118 (32 Probes+518)
I don't get it as well. Let me take hungry build. By 5 minutes you have to spend (asuming the under 5 minutes corsair)
1350 minerals on probes
400 minerals on nexus
150 on gateway
200 on core
450 on forge and cannons
assuming 31 probes + 2 zealots + corsair = at least 3 pylons = 300 minerals
200 on 2 assimilators
200 on 2 zealots
100 on weapons upgrade
150 on citadel
150 on arhives
150 on sair
= 3800 minerals
On probes, nexus, core, gate, forge and cannons you have to spend 2550 alone.
3. Can someone post a few replays of this exact build working at least on C level plz?
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VODs show this exact build being used by Free and Best quite often.
The money is counted by probesx50+minerals left by the time first sair is made.
As for the in game timer... i dunno, I haven't watched a proper replay in years, literally.
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My internet is neither cheap nor fast, so I would rather have a replay.
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On January 20 2009 22:31 Cheerio wrote:
My internet is neither cheap nor fast, so I would rather have a replay.
then look for a Korean replay at www.ygosu.com
second item from the left in the menu is the replay section.
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i love you
i love you
I LOVE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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This is really great, I really appreciate the work translating this. I really look forward to you translating other guides; I think it will really help out a lot of newer players reading Team Liquid. This type of guide is so much more helpful than 95% of the other guides that can be found online in English.
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On January 21 2009 01:01 freelander wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2009 22:31 Cheerio wrote:
My internet is neither cheap nor fast, so I would rather have a replay. then look for a Korean replay at www.ygosu.comsecond item from the left in the menu is the replay section.
I could look, but I'd like to ask if anyone has a replay that is almost a perfect example of this build. I'd like to just watch it and go through the timings. If someone who's high level would like to play this build to demonstrate and save a replay, that'd be fine too.
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Shameless bump; this thread cannot be allowed to die.
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On January 26 2009 08:45 muqoou wrote:
Shameless bump; this thread cannot be allowed to die.
It will never die...it's in the recommended threads of the Strategy Forum. There was no need to do this.
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On December 23 2008 12:43 SuperJongMan wrote:
Corsair Timing -
Hungry 4:20
Regular 4:55
To bump an old thread and resurrect an unanswered question...
I recently (finally) attempted to incorporate this build into my repertoire, but as I trained single player I could never get the Corsair out by 4:20 using the Hungry Build. The best I ever could do was maybe 5:45 - cannons at 13/14, Nexus/Gate at 15, Assimilator/Core at 17, and then a Stargate basically as soon as the Core finishes. And yet after trying multiple times I was unable to push the time down even to 5 minutes.
Does anyone else have experience with this?
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On February 06 2009 18:56 Funnytoss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2008 12:43 SuperJongMan wrote:
Corsair Timing -
Hungry 4:20
Regular 4:55
To bump an old thread and resurrect an unanswered question... I recently (finally) attempted to incorporate this build into my repertoire, but as I trained single player I could never get the Corsair out by 4:20 using the Hungry Build. The best I ever could do was maybe 5:45 - cannons at 13/14, Nexus/Gate at 15, Assimilator/Core at 17, and then a Stargate basically as soon as the Core finishes. And yet after trying multiple times I was unable to push the time down even to 5 minutes. Does anyone else have experience with this?
I believe this is down to mechanics. The timing given most likely assumes you have an extremely high level mechanics.
i.e
Do you always rally your probes to nearest mineral patch?
Do you always have a 2nd probe queued in your nexus?
Do you start to pull a probe in position to build that first forge when you have 130 minerals?
A couple seconds here and there, all add up...
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Yeah, I even tried it against an unrealistic opponent - distracting the computer so it wouldn't bother me at all, and could concentrate purely on getting the build down. I'm fairly certain that a better player could do it faster, but one whole minute seems to be stretching it. It does seem possible that it is indeed when the Corsair *starts* rather than it pops out, though I'd have to see more replays of other people to make sure it's not just me.
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The timings are wrong. No way someone can complete that in time. Whether its a translation problem or a typo in the original guide i have no idea. My guess is to add one minute to both. meaning 5.20 and 5.55.
EDIT: 5.20 still sounds sick fast, so I'm not sure about the 1 minute of theory.
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Stylish said something like the replay time thingy is not reliable (as in it goes too fast) in some cases, so maybe thats why you're getting different results?
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Thank you so much SuperJongMan. I won my first PvZ today using this.
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On February 07 2009 13:19 Supah wrote:
The timings are wrong. No way someone can complete that in time. Whether its a translation problem or a typo in the original guide i have no idea. My guess is to add one minute to both. meaning 5.20 and 5.55.
EDIT: 5.20 still sounds sick fast, so I'm not sure about the 1 minute of theory.
Hi, I just tested it with the "Hungry Build", but building only 1 cannon (not 2).
My Stargate (!) starts at 4:10 (there is no way u can do it any faster), my corsairs starts a 5:00 and is finished at 5:22 or something. I leave my base with 6 Zeals and 2 archons at 7:38 which is really fast (in-game I usually leave at 8:00+). At this time, my leg speed and +1 attack hasn't completely finished yet, but is going to during my move towards the enemy base (at around 8:00).
Will keep on testing now. I think about having a stop watch nearby while playing. This should really help to improve some timings...
EDIT: I just even managed to leave my base with 6 zealots and 2 Archons at 7:30 and 70 supply (also hungry build), while my speed upgrade finished at 7:24 (!) and my +1 at 7:30! My corsair timing was the same, I just took my second gas a little earlier (even before my 2nd nexxus finished). In both cases I made only 1 corsair and 1 cannon and there was no harrass from the computer...
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My experience seconds the above post - unless you build the gateway before the nat Nexus, it is simply impossible to get Corsairs *out* that fast.
As far as the second gas is concerned, I've found that in order to get the gas up as the Cyber core is halfway done, you actually have to send out a probe even before the Nexus is finished warping in... perhaps just a difference between the Hungry and Regular build.
Are there are concrete "triggers" for when to start leg speed? I go StarGate, Citadel, +1, Temp Archive, 3 Gates... I'm assuming that laying down the Temp Archive is first priority once the Citadel finishes in order to get the 4 HT out in time, but to take advantage of that it seems you have to warp in the 3 additional gateways immediately - does leg speed come after that, as you have the resources?
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dude. Best Guide. Ever. Honestly I had BigBalls PVZ guide before the revolution and it's great in it's own light but THIS, this..
down to the very funny korean-humor-style puns and phraseology of starcraft, this guide kicks ass.
Super.t)JongMan
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Wow, cool.
Working on my timing is fantastic.
I just barely beat a player who usually would own me easily. And I had a better position and was better , then I just screwed up the mid/lategame ,forgetting pylons and accumulating too much money. but the first 12 minutes were tremendous. He lost 2 of his bases without compensation.
After that I beat another 14-0 player easily (ok, I know 14-0 might mean nothing, but I think he was not that bad), he had no chance, my timing rush just totally killed him. Attacking 30 seconds earlier than usual makes a BIG difference (even though my practice timings are even faster!). I will test it in the next few days but I could imagine that I could reach C in PvZ with that adjustments (I am now D+/C-).
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On February 07 2009 21:25 Funnytoss wrote:
My experience seconds the above post - unless you build the gateway before the nat Nexus, it is simply impossible to get Corsairs *out* that fast.
As far as the second gas is concerned, I've found that in order to get the gas up as the Cyber core is halfway done, you actually have to send out a probe even before the Nexus is finished warping in... perhaps just a difference between the Hungry and Regular build.
Are there are concrete "triggers" for when to start leg speed? I go StarGate, Citadel, +1, Temp Archive, 3 Gates... I'm assuming that laying down the Temp Archive is first priority once the Citadel finishes in order to get the 4 HT out in time, but to take advantage of that it seems you have to warp in the 3 additional gateways immediately - does leg speed come after that, as you have the resources?
I have found out that if you put your second gas before the second nexxus finishes and start to gather gas immidiately, you can start your leg upgrade right after you build your 3 additional gateways (the minerals are the limitation then...). It's possible that your 4th archons is delayed by a bit, but not much. In this way, I manage to get 6 zeals + 2 archons with +1 and leg up at the 7:30 minute mark....
Thats really fast....If the zerg just powers a little bit too much, he's dead.
Usually I then start psistorm (even before you leave your base with ur timing rush). You can finish it at 8:00.
Only if I see lurx, I go robotics first and get goon range. Only after that I get psistorm.
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On February 07 2009 17:44 Drazzzt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2009 13:19 Supah wrote:
The timings are wrong. No way someone can complete that in time. Whether its a translation problem or a typo in the original guide i have no idea. My guess is to add one minute to both. meaning 5.20 and 5.55.
EDIT: 5.20 still sounds sick fast, so I'm not sure about the 1 minute of theory. Hi, I just tested it with the "Hungry Build", but building only 1 cannon (not 2). My Stargate (!) starts at 4:10 (there is no way u can do it any faster), my corsairs starts a 5:00 and is finished at 5:22 or something. I leave my base with 6 Zeals and 2 archons at 7:38 which is really fast (in-game I usually leave at 8:00+). At this time, my leg speed and +1 attack hasn't completely finished yet, but is going to during my move towards the enemy base (at around 8:00). Will keep on testing now. I think about having a stop watch nearby while playing. This should really help to improve some timings... EDIT: I just even managed to leave my base with 6 zealots and 2 Archons at 7:30 and 70 supply (also hungry build), while my speed upgrade finished at 7:24 (!) and my +1 at 7:30! My corsair timing was the same, I just took my second gas a little earlier (even before my 2nd nexxus finished). In both cases I made only 1 corsair and 1 cannon and there was no harrass from the computer...
Could you post this replay?
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thanks for this! it fixed a few of my timings.
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On February 07 2009 22:29 Drazzzt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2009 21:25 Funnytoss wrote:
My experience seconds the above post - unless you build the gateway before the nat Nexus, it is simply impossible to get Corsairs *out* that fast.
As far as the second gas is concerned, I've found that in order to get the gas up as the Cyber core is halfway done, you actually have to send out a probe even before the Nexus is finished warping in... perhaps just a difference between the Hungry and Regular build.
Are there are concrete "triggers" for when to start leg speed? I go StarGate, Citadel, +1, Temp Archive, 3 Gates... I'm assuming that laying down the Temp Archive is first priority once the Citadel finishes in order to get the 4 HT out in time, but to take advantage of that it seems you have to warp in the 3 additional gateways immediately - does leg speed come after that, as you have the resources? I have found out that if you put your second gas before the second nexxus finishes and start to gather gas immidiately, you can start your leg upgrade right after you build your 3 additional gateways (the minerals are the limitation then...). It's possible that your 4th archons is delayed by a bit, but not much. In this way, I manage to get 6 zeals + 2 archons with +1 and leg up at the 7:30 minute mark.... Thats really fast....If the zerg just powers a little bit too much, he's dead. Usually I then start psistorm (even before you leave your base with ur timing rush). You can finish it at 8:00. Only if I see lurx, I go robotics first and get goon range. Only after that I get psistorm.
Replay? I could never integrate a totally fast gas natural build whenever I FE. Typically I will run off one until my corsair pops out or if I know I want to do a gas intensive timing push (typically involving Archons, Dark Templar, Mass Corsair). I usually don't even upgrade legs until I definitely know I need it, so the extra gas isn't worthwhile. In the long-run though that extra gas could really power up a zealot heavy army with some more heavy-hitting archons or faster upgrades!
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On February 08 2009 06:40 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2009 22:29 Drazzzt wrote:On February 07 2009 21:25 Funnytoss wrote:
My experience seconds the above post - unless you build the gateway before the nat Nexus, it is simply impossible to get Corsairs *out* that fast.
As far as the second gas is concerned, I've found that in order to get the gas up as the Cyber core is halfway done, you actually have to send out a probe even before the Nexus is finished warping in... perhaps just a difference between the Hungry and Regular build.
Are there are concrete "triggers" for when to start leg speed? I go StarGate, Citadel, +1, Temp Archive, 3 Gates... I'm assuming that laying down the Temp Archive is first priority once the Citadel finishes in order to get the 4 HT out in time, but to take advantage of that it seems you have to warp in the 3 additional gateways immediately - does leg speed come after that, as you have the resources? I have found out that if you put your second gas before the second nexxus finishes and start to gather gas immidiately, you can start your leg upgrade right after you build your 3 additional gateways (the minerals are the limitation then...). It's possible that your 4th archons is delayed by a bit, but not much. In this way, I manage to get 6 zeals + 2 archons with +1 and leg up at the 7:30 minute mark.... Thats really fast....If the zerg just powers a little bit too much, he's dead. Usually I then start psistorm (even before you leave your base with ur timing rush). You can finish it at 8:00. Only if I see lurx, I go robotics first and get goon range. Only after that I get psistorm. Replay? I could never integrate a totally fast gas natural build whenever I FE. Typically I will run off one until my corsair pops out or if I know I want to do a gas intensive timing push (typically involving Archons, Dark Templar, Mass Corsair). I usually don't even upgrade legs until I definitely know I need it, so the extra gas isn't worthwhile. In the long-run though that extra gas could really power up a zealot heavy army with some more heavy-hitting archons or faster upgrades!
Ok, here is the replay:
http://rapidshare.com/files/195441663/TestHungryFE_1Cannon_1Cors.rep.html
My first zealot comes a little late though. But I think you could also start it earlier (I had the minerals). This will probably delay the 3rd pylon a bit, but would be ok. If you see the zerg only making 2-4 lings (and 3 bases or even 4), you can definitely build the zealot that late...
I don't know what happens if you see the zerg going a hydra push though. You probably would have to take the 3 probes off from second gas in order to have enough minerals for cannons. But I am not sure.
This is just a raw build against a computer doing nothing....
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SuperJOngMan?
will you have my children?
i can cook, clean and take care of children at the same time
I can and will take it up the ass
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On February 08 2009 18:13 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
SuperJOngMan?
will you have my children?
i can cook, clean and take care of children at the same time
I can and will take it up the ass
QFT
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I want a TvZ translation! ;p
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Is there a replay anyone has that can show me this strategy in action?
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I'm sorry to post this but I'm getting back into Starcraft recently and the game has change DRASTICALLY since I played on BNET back in 2003. Anyone care to explain what in the fuck is a Neo-Sauron Zerg? Lol I have no clue what that means.
"(9 pool, 6 ling, front hatch, 3rd base hatch, gas, lair, lingspeed, spire/scourge, +2 hatch - Den+Chamber. )"
That also doesn't really help me either unfortunately.
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On May 01 2009 12:11 hsram wrote:I'm sorry to post this but I'm getting back into Starcraft recently and the game has change DRASTICALLY since I played on BNET back in 2003. Anyone care to explain what in the fuck is a Neo-Sauron Zerg? Lol I have no clue what that means. "(9 pool, 6 ling, front hatch, 3rd base hatch, gas, lair, lingspeed, spire/scourge, +2 hatch - Den+Chamber. )" That also doesn't really help me either unfortunately.
The Zerg gets three hatcheries and makes a lair and then spire, but the spire is only to negate the Protoss corsairs. The actual goal is to make five hatcheries on three bases and mass hydralisk with +1 missile, then taking their third gas to afford mutalisk which will snipe off the Protoss' HT, making the hydralisk even more effective.
It's pretty much the most common used ZvP build order on iCCup I'd say, with most Protoss' using this build.
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On May 01 2009 12:29 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2009 12:11 hsram wrote:I'm sorry to post this but I'm getting back into Starcraft recently and the game has change DRASTICALLY since I played on BNET back in 2003. Anyone care to explain what in the fuck is a Neo-Sauron Zerg? Lol I have no clue what that means. "(9 pool, 6 ling, front hatch, 3rd base hatch, gas, lair, lingspeed, spire/scourge, +2 hatch - Den+Chamber. )" That also doesn't really help me either unfortunately. The Zerg gets three hatcheries and makes a lair and then spire, but the spire is only to negate the Protoss corsairs. The actual goal is to make five hatcheries on three bases and mass hydralisk with +1 missile, then taking their third gas to afford mutalisk which will snipe off the Protoss' HT, making the hydralisk even more effective. It's pretty much the most common used ZvP build order on iCCup I'd say, with most Protoss' using this build.
Ty sir.
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I thought sauron zerg was most commonly defined as macro whore style ? Like getting as many hatches you can afford based on X bases ? Expanding everywhere, making more and more units and just 1a2a3a4a5a the **** out of everyone ?
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United States11390 Posts
On May 01 2009 13:35 RaiZ wrote:
I thought sauron zerg was most commonly defined as macro whore style ? Like getting as many hatches you can afford based on X bases ? Expanding everywhere, making more and more units and just 1a2a3a4a5a the **** out of everyone ?
Neo-Sauron doesn't equal Sauron Zerg.
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On March 21 2009 03:59 Sets wrote:
Is there a replay anyone has that can show me this strategy in action?
should be plenty around
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On May 01 2009 18:06 Marine50 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2009 03:59 Sets wrote:
Is there a replay anyone has that can show me this strategy in action?
much[gm] playing this build on desti
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On May 02 2009 00:23 omninmo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2009 18:06 Marine50 wrote:On March 21 2009 03:59 Sets wrote:
Is there a replay anyone has that can show me this strategy in action? much[gm] playing this build on desti
That was a good game.
+ Show Spoiler +Until su.ae messed up with the defiler at the very end, otherwise he would of had that.
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Corsair Timing -
Hungry 4:20
Regular 4:55
This has to be a typo yes? Cause I'm wondering how this is possible.
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Some timings from the much replay posted above:
2nd Nexus done: 3:37
Core done: 4:20
SG start: 4:34
SG done / Sair start: 5:20
Sair out: 5:47
This is with more of a hungry style build, with photon cannons after nexus. Here is the BO:
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Yup, got my sair out at 5:47 too. There's no way to get it out faster except maybe cutting probes for the first nexus/gate. I got the exact same results as DemonCowgirl by starting gate as soon as i had 150 minerals after nexus, core as soon as gate is done, stargate as soon as core is done, etc., except he didn't get 2nd assimilator I think. This with forge-cannon-cannon-nex-gate.
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It's mentioned in the thread it's Stargate timing.
Sigh, nabs.
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Awesome work, this helped me really much
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I haven't read through all the posts yet so please forgive me if this has already been mentioned.
Goons can work pretty well with a dark archon sniping defilers when the Z manages to get to hive. Goons do become a lot less useful once defilers get plague though. Not really worth the gas at that point imo.
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My starcraft or Bwchart cannot open the replays on that website (http://pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=daku&no=1668). Is there a way to fix this?
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About the corsair timing, the original post actually says "core completion time" not "corsair timing". Based on my tests 4:55 is about right for the core completion using the regular build and the corsair will be ready around 5:55-6:00.
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if a corsair was out before 5 minutes in a fe build, even 2 hat -> scourge would be too slow to prevent it from killing an overlord or 2
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bump..but a serious question
I saw my zerg opponent going for a 12 hatch
So i skipped forge and placed my nat nexus/gate and then forge/cannon
This sped up my core timing as well as my overall tech timing
Could you also incorporate timings as well as other variations when this happens
(gate before forge?)
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On May 02 2009 00:23 omninmo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2009 18:06 Marine50 wrote:On March 21 2009 03:59 Sets wrote:
Is there a replay anyone has that can show me this strategy in action? much[gm] playing this build on desti
u say much make this strat on that replay but i see only a something like.
He made so many gateways..
and so many corsair..
does not denaturate the heart of the strategy?(corsair only to scout and a fast push?)
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On June 12 2009 05:35 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
bump..but a serious question
I saw my zerg opponent going for a 12 hatch
So i skipped forge and placed my nat nexus/gate and then forge/cannon
This sped up my core timing as well as my overall tech timing
Could you also incorporate timings as well as other variations when this happens
(gate before forge?)
I'm not sure if I completely understand your question... but here it goes:
Doing the gateway first is good if you know your opponent isn't going to have a lot of early lings. Typically I've realized that if a Z does 12 hatch they're not going for ling pressure, so getting that later cannon is okay, and you really need only one since your wall can fend off a max of 6-10 zerglings. What you have to remember if you're going to commit to a gateway first you MUST make sure that your forge is going up when the spawning pool reaches the 50% mark on completion (at least). You may need to cut probe production to make this happen, but it's a move just to be safe. Your timings shouldn't change too much since you're still building what the original FE is aiming for, except you've made the gateway first, so the time between your gateway completing and the cybernetics core to start will increase. I'm going to run both builds quickly on single player and I'll post the times in comparison.
If I did this right you can begin your stargate at 4:15, however you have to neglect probe production at 14 for this to work perfectly to get your cannon in a timely fashion (I dont know the time a zergling pops using 12 hatch, but my cannon was started at 3:04). In order for you to benefit from making an earlier gateway you need to make the assimilator right after the forge and you will have 152 gas exactly when the core finishes.
The build is something along these lines:
8 Pylon
12 Nexus
14 Gateway
14 Forge
14 Assimilator
15 Cannon
16 Cybernetics Core
18 Zealot
From here I'm not 100% sure of the numbers since the game is corrupted oddly, but you will be able to build your stargate immediately when your core finishes.
20 Assimilator
22 Stargate
22 Pylon
23 Zealot
First Corsair will begin building at 5:01 doing it like this. (using the time from page 9 it should be about 46 seconds difference from when your stargate began)
After going through this I would only recommend doing this (Gate --> Forge) if and only if you know your opponent will not apply much ling pressure and is not 2 hatch hydra all-inning you
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Pretty hard to know unless you can read the player your playing like a book. With all the probe cuts and added danger, doesn't seem all that worth it to gate like that.
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12hatch definitely doesn't mean that the Zerg is planning for a passive game.
12hatch transitions into all-in lings very very easily.
You'll get run over if a Zerg player see's your gates and starts ling production. You can't block your ramp without saccing your nat, and you can't guard your nat without easily letting them up your ramp. It's GG. Get the cannons.
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mm ok but why make 2 atrchon and not taking 4 templar? someone can explain me this?
and when (and if)i have to put down cannon on main?
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On June 13 2009 05:57 LuDwig- wrote:
mm ok but why make 2 atrchon and not taking 4 templar? someone can explain me this?
and when (and if)i have to put down cannon on main?
Because A)This is a timing build and you'd have to wait for storm to be researched for templars to be effective. B)Any good zerg will have no trouble picking your HT off if they went mutas because lets be honest, you've got a buncha zealots and 4 hts with no storm. C)To expand on that you counter the air with archons while killing the ground units with your zealots or if there are no mutas you use your archons excellent splash damage to rofl over your opponents lings.
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Can you answer my second question too?
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On June 13 2009 15:58 LuDwig- wrote:
Can you answer my second question too?
You only put down canons in your main if you know he is going mutas and that you cannot handle them with your sairs.
don't put them before scouting - as you will be wasting valuable resources. you have to be sure that he went mutas. That is why people go fast Sairs - they are not only good at attacking overlords but also help tremendously in scouting.
Edit: Also in mid game its good to put some cannons in your bases to defend against drops.
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yes but usually when i go fast sair i arrie enemy base when muta is going do pop out..it seem like little late for making cannons.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
its actually not, canons go up fast, and once u scout just spam 2-3 canons and for sure 2will be up by the time he comes.
you can also defend with dragoons+sairs if u need the time.
Edit: if you are worried send in a second scout secretly and see if he goes spire, if he does then you can plan accordingly.
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On June 13 2009 19:31 LuDwig- wrote:
yes but usually when i go fast sair i arrie enemy base when muta is going do pop out..it seem like little late for making cannons.
you should make the first cannon when your sair is making the trip to your opponents main. If you spot a spire no den and two gas and a bunch of eggs I would build 2 more cannons and a couple more sairs. If you don't spot muta then you can cancel the initial cannon (though I like keeping it anyway, unless I desperately need the resources)
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okay i have major trouble with this build. what do you do when the other person denies scouting probe, and then by the time i get my sair to scout, he is breaking my front with 20 hydras and 10 lings? or if they break my front with just 50 lings straight up... i am clueless on what to do vs this as i am still preparing my army and getting gates and archives up
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isnt this build mostly dead? i havent seen it used by anyone in a long time
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
On July 07 2009 08:17 arb wrote:
isnt this build mostly dead? i havent seen it used by anyone in a long time
because this BO doesnt work if zerg does 5hatch hydra + lurkers
this is the BO that i use to play vs Zerg that makes 5hatch hydra
you can take control of air and at the same time have a big army
repdepot
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On July 07 2009 08:17 arb wrote:
isnt this build mostly dead? i havent seen it used by anyone in a long time
The problem I found with this build is that your zealot/archon push cannot do damage to the Zerg anymore. I don't know if Zerg's would whore more drones before or what, but Zerg's seem to have two control groups of hydralisk when your attack comes. This means it's too weak to hold off a counter-attack, so you don't have time to get your third up and running. All the older VODs I watch of this build, the Zerg seems to be playing very defensively, but if you try this on iCCup now, they will just counter attack with their hydralisk and force you to cancel your third.
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On June 13 2009 03:26 SteveNick wrote:
12hatch definitely doesn't mean that the Zerg is planning for a passive game.
12hatch transitions into all-in lings very very easily.
You'll get run over if a Zerg player see's your gates and starts ling production. You can't block your ramp without saccing your nat, and you can't guard your nat without easily letting them up your ramp. It's GG. Get the cannons.
Thats why you get good at keeping your probe alive + hide another probe on the map.
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On July 07 2009 08:34 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 08:17 arb wrote:
isnt this build mostly dead? i havent seen it used by anyone in a long time The problem I found with this build is that your zealot/archon push cannot do damage to the Zerg anymore. I don't know if Zerg's would whore more drones before or what, but Zerg's seem to have two control groups of hydralisk when your attack comes. This means it's too weak to hold off a counter-attack, so you don't have time to get your third up and running. All the older VODs I watch of this build, the Zerg seems to be playing very defensively, but if you try this on iCCup now, they will just counter attack with their hydralisk and force you to cancel your third.
when iw as playing toss i noticed the same thing, it just seems like no matter what you push with they have more than enough hydralisks to shit all over your stormless army and then kill you moments later..
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On July 07 2009 08:39 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 08:34 Salv wrote:On July 07 2009 08:17 arb wrote:
isnt this build mostly dead? i havent seen it used by anyone in a long time The problem I found with this build is that your zealot/archon push cannot do damage to the Zerg anymore. I don't know if Zerg's would whore more drones before or what, but Zerg's seem to have two control groups of hydralisk when your attack comes. This means it's too weak to hold off a counter-attack, so you don't have time to get your third up and running. All the older VODs I watch of this build, the Zerg seems to be playing very defensively, but if you try this on iCCup now, they will just counter attack with their hydralisk and force you to cancel your third. when iw as playing toss i noticed the same thing, it just seems like no matter what you push with they have more than enough hydralisks to shit all over your stormless army and then kill you moments later..
Yeah, maybe a Zerg can clarify on why this is? I'm just assuming that prior Zerg's were just playing too defensively and making too many drones, before developing an actual build order that maximized hydralisk production.
The only idea I can think of; assuming that you know your attack won't be successful, is to push out, clear your third, push to your opponents base while expanding and rallying fresh HT there and just try to stall as much as possible with your army, without actually engaging. With this, maybe even if you begin to be pushed back, you can have cannons warping with HT and storm ready to defend. Although, I am quite sure a Zerg's mutalisk switch comes before those cannons warp, not quite sure. I might play a few games with this build again and find out for sure.
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United Arab Emirates5091 Posts
very nice guide. something every protoss player should have in his arsenal, along with 2gate.
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The build is not dead, just modified. And you shouldn't be too agresive with it. Zergs have gotten better at defending it (mainly better building positioning), but your army is still stronger on open ground (for a short period of time). Just go on the map, walk your army around a bit and than fall back to your third. You should have canons on time (no way mutalisks can come before your canons) and storm finishing very soon. So with your speed zeals and canoned third you should hold untill then. But I'm performing the build slightly different now, so I might be wrong.
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I guess this build doesn't work because it's so slow and Z will have like 36 Hydras vs 15 speedlots and 2 archons, which just gets crushed. After he defeats the attack he can pump pure drones, expand again, and be way ahead. It can be used to secure a third base, but the Z's army is strong enough to still beat this straight-up, and when they add mutas or even Lurkers, it's going to be difficult.
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On August 24 2009 21:43 Mada_Jiang wrote:
Is there a chance anyone has a demo rep of the adjusted build please. Like Shikyo said, hydra numbers always seem to be superior. I found 3 hat hydra to be extremely difficult to handle.
3 hatch hydra should be easy to handle. You should be able to scout his ridiculous build. (I didn't know people still did 3 hatch hydra?...)
All you need is a couple extra cannons and get your zealot speed and +1 attack fast. If you stop the initial hydra push its typically GG. I guess this would qualify as an all-inish type of gameplay.
and besides 3 hatch hydra probably means he may or may not have teched lair first. In the case that he didn't tech lair you could get away with sair DT.
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I've mass ZvP'd over the last few days with my C friends.
And I've lost almost every game to this, or something earlier.
For those of you who are having trouble with 5 hatchery macro, just attack sooner with less zealots or 1 less archon or even just threaten with it. It's very annoying for zerg to have to sunken up uselessly. Also, i've NEVER had enough hydras in time to deal with the attack. Will upload replays if you guys want, though I'm not quite sure which ones it is.
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Yeah, if you could upload replays would be great.
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United States17042 Posts
3 hat hydra is pretty much all-in, and you can win pretty easily as long as you don't have any probe losses. this involves slowing down your tech a huge amount, and building enough cannons behind your first few.
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On December 23 2008 17:31 IdrA wrote:ok "make a fighting force that is large enough to delay your expo but too small to do any serious damage to the protoss, and also leaves you impotent vs tech and shuttle builds. continue as normal from there, if you somehow manage to not die" DONT USE FD
This. im a completely newbie but every time my T opponent goes for FD I sigh for relief, easily defend with my 3-4 ranged goons, and then whatever mid game move I had planned (either fast exp, reaver drop, dt drop) goes about unhindered
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one question I had about this build: When to start +1 weapon?
do you do it as your citadel is warping in? or with your first 100 gas? when?
edit: nm found it, it's after citadel
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