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[A] Starbow

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1735 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-10 20:22:36
January 20 2012 18:32 GMT
#1
[image loading]
[image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading]

This is the original development thread for Starbow.

Visit Starbowmod.com to play ladder!

[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +

Starbow is a fan-made expansion to Brood War, built in the SC2 engine.

The game intends to recreate many of the good gameplay aspects of BW, while using units and spells from both SC2 and BW.

Notable Features:
  • Brood War economy (rewards taking expansions).
  • High ground advantage (units attacking uphill have a 50% miss chance).
  • Combat lasts longer and occurs over wider areas, compared to Starcraft 2 .
  • More positional play.
  • Retains Starcraft 2 mechanics (e.g. unlimited selection).
  • Balance is based on Brood War but with additional content for a broader meta-game.

Decemberscalms explains:


It's more aimed at being an expansion to BW built in the SC2 engine. It isn't trying to be a better SC2 like most SC2 melee mods do.

Its built more on BW fundamentals instead of SC2 fundamentals. The resources, map design (ported from BW for the most part), rush distances, and build times are a lot more reminiscent of BW.

Armies feel more spread out, and fights can happen over much larger space, despite armies generally being lower supply due to the lower economy.

We also put a lot of emphasis on micro being a pretty big factor. Things that are anti micro generally get developed out of the game. Fundamental changes to units were made as well to make fights more micro-able than their SC2 engine counterparts. Fights tend to last longer.

If you love SC2 and hate BW from experience with both games, this will probably not change your mind. It isn't trying to beat SC2. Its trying to be a fresh new BW oriented experience for guys who enjoyed playing and watching BW, while still being relatively accessible for a SC2 player.


Starbow is currently under development (especially in terms of balance), so expect frequent patching. As the metagame is still largely unexplored, the development team will be focused mostly on bug fixing.


[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +

Check out the Starbow Wiki for more detailed information.

Terran:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Protoss:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Zerg:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]



[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCizw5QhP2NX3pgOOn6SbDiA


[image loading]
+ Show Spoiler +

Starbow Twitch Streams:
  • Decemberscalm
  • SC2 Starbow
  • Beastyqt
  • Crank
  • Dragon
  • Destiny
  • Rider Rockon
  • Madals
  • AdelSC
  • Sorm Feel
  • TopRamen
  • sMiShox
  • coZy
  • Dragoni

Youtube:
  • Decemberscalm
  • Xiphias
  • PSY
  • TotalBiscuit
  • Husky Starcraft


[image loading]
+ Show Spoiler +

[Under Development]

Starbow can be found on the Arcade on EU, NA, KR and SEA.


[image loading]
+ Show Spoiler +
  • Does Starbow have a ranking system?
    + Show Spoiler +

    Yes, more information can be found here.


  • How does the high ground miss chance work?
    + Show Spoiler +
    [image loading]


  • Does Starbow have a campaign?
    + Show Spoiler +


    A campaign for Starbow is under development. You can read about it here: http://starbowmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=620

    A similar project would be to play the Starcraft 1 campaign in the Starcraft 2 engine. Check that our here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/303166-starcraft-mass-recall-sc1-campaigns-on-sc2-thread


  • Why are Starbow's macro mechanics so strange?
    + Show Spoiler +

    The macro mechanics in Starbow are not perfect but they were added for these reasons:
    • Increase APM and Multitasking

      All macro mechanics are cheaper to cast and/or last shorter, compared to SC2. Which means that players have to return to their base more often to macro and it raises the APM requirements to have "perfect" macro.

    • Improve Decision Making

      They force players to make strategic choices on when to use the macro mechanics.
      Protoss: Speed up workers or army production, upgrades, boost Cannons for extra defence or use Rift to save units.
      Terran: Drop-down Workers, speed up army production and Scan for information.
      Zerg: Speed up Larvae production, spread Creep, Heal units or structures, speed up the morphing of structures, Enrage for defence.

    • Provide Build Order Diversity

      Each race must "unlock" their macro mechanics by puchasing some kind of structure or unit (e.g. Orbital Command, Queen, Nexus upgrade). The mechanics can also be used to widen the space for different timings or build order choices (e.g. devote Chronoboost energy on the Dragoon Range upgrade for faster pressure, spend Queen energy on Nurturing Swarm to get faster Lair tech, etc).


  • Why are the macro mechanics so similar and boring?
    + Show Spoiler +

    We are aware that one fundamental aspect of Starcraft is the uniqueness between races. But for the most part of the develoment, we have been around 10-15 active players, who playtested this on a regular basis. We wanted to establish a decent balance amoung ourselves, and for that reason, each macro mechanic became a "Chrono boost", just because it was easier to calculate the strength of them. It gave APM to macro, it felt kinda even, but the design was a bit "ugly". It was however playable so we settled with it, and instead moved on to other areas of the game to look at.

    Partly for the same reason, we added so each race can get access to their macro mechanics kinda at the same time. Queen, Orbital Command or upgraded Nexus can be available after the initial production structure for each race is built.

    During earlier playtesting, it seemed much more cost efficient to only use macro mechanics on workers, tech and units from expensive production structures. We wanted to encourage its usage on cheap structures like Barrack and Gateway. Thereby Chronoboost and Overcharge got a better effect on those structures, which should reward players more for using them constantly throughout the game for army production.


  • Is there no way to make macro mechanics more unique?
    + Show Spoiler +

    Surely there are. Here are some earlier stuff we looked at:

    Chrono boost - Remain as it is in terms of design.

    Inject - Make each cycle "pop" a few extra larvas. Each Hatchery can maybe stack 5-7 larvas to avoid insane instant re-max situations. (Aka more SC2 style).. Probably with cheaper energy cost and shorter cooldown, so its more important to use it more often.

    Terran - SCV Calldown remain as it is, and different version of Overcharge. OC can calldown a "one-time-reactor" on top of a production facility. This reactor allows two units to be built at the same time, and after they finish, the reactor is destroyed. (And can be added again via casting the spell once more..)

    The later version of Overcharge feels unique, fun and more like Terran. But it was hard to make it work properly in the editor, it felt a bit clunky to play with, and it would probably be hard to balance anyway.

    It could be argued that Overcharge is not needed at all. Which might be true. We kinda felt that with only Calldown SCV, Terran macro had a lot less things to do with the APM. And we want to increase the skill cap for all races in that regard.


[image loading]
+ Show Spoiler +
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[image loading]
+ Show Spoiler +

A lot of people have been involved with Starbow in various capacities during its two years of development. Some joined early and stayed the whole time, while others left after a while. The development was public and everyone could contribute with input, here is the original [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955]development thread:
[list]
[*] Kabel - Creator, main designer, developer, and ruthless dictator of Starbow.
[*] asphyxia88 (xiA) - Data editor, has created many of the advanced spells, units, and awesome effects used in the game.
[*] Decemberscalm - Data editor and caster, has created many of the systems used in Starbow (e.g. spread out unit movement, high ground system, economy system and many micro solutions).
[*] Xiphias - Mr Math himself, has worked on many areas... casting, wiki, maps, economy system, and is currently implementing the ranking system.
[*] Dirtybag (Foxxan) - Brood war veteran, his deep knowledge and skills have contributed a lot to balance and design.
[*] Hider - Possible recordholder for most played Starbow matches and has contributed a lot with feedback, balance and design.
[*] JohnnyZerg - Maintains the Starbow Unit Tester.
[*] GamanNO - Editor of the Starbow Wiki.
[*] Ahli - Helps out with bug fixes and other technical improvements to the game.
[*] SolidSMD, Zaphod Beeblebrox, Danko, Roblin, Iceman, Sumadin, Kalevi, LaLush, purakushi, Fishgle,
Azelja, Doominator, SmileZerg, Ulosethegame (and many others!)
- Contributed to the development with playtesting, ideas, design, balance and feedback.
[*] iSoulFilcher, Flinkelinks, MavercK, Forsworne, Thrikodias - Custom models, icons and textures.
[*] iHirO - Created the logo and graphics.
[*] Meerel and IeZaeL - Thanks for a lot of great maps.
[*] SC2Mapster.com - Special thanks for answering my thousands of questions regarding the editor.
[/list]

Creator of Starbow
Itisis
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada79 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-20 18:45:01
January 20 2012 18:42 GMT
#2
Barracks, Factories, and Starports can be salvaged..? Also, I don't see the reason behind the Gateway/Warp Gate change, seems like you just changed it for the sake of changing it.
msjakofsky
Profile Joined June 2011
1169 Posts
January 20 2012 18:47 GMT
#3
this seems interesting, though racial imbalances are probably right there if someone plays enough to discover them. but i can promise that i'll give it a try with a friend some day
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18837 Posts
January 20 2012 18:49 GMT
#4
On January 21 2012 03:42 Itisis wrote:
Barracks, Factories, and Starports can be salvaged..? Also, I don't see the reason behind the Gateway/Warp Gate change, seems like you just changed it for the sake of changing it.


This way warpgate and gateway both have an advantage and a disadvantage. If you ask me, this is how it should work. Right now in Starcraft 2 a normal gateway is just a process to get a warpgate.. you could as well just upgrade "Warpgate" and from then on just build warpgates...

The way he puts it will give you the benefit of harassing / instant reinforcements via warpgates, but the cooldown will be slower than the production cycle of a normal gateway.. if you need to macro for defence for example.
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
msjakofsky
Profile Joined June 2011
1169 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-20 19:01:12
January 20 2012 18:51 GMT
#5
all i can say on first sight that Swarm Guardian seems too powerful. all three spells are ridiculously strong for just one unit.

also spider mines iirc are a bit different from bw mines, when they come out of the ground they don't stay idle for a second. this way you could snipe them in bw by attack moving dragoons. iirc in sc2 they come out and immediately target an unit, making them much more hard to snipe. didn't play the map yet but if it's the same as in sc:bw i found that problematic, ppl just don't play enough to exploit it properly (in bw such a thing would break the t matchups immediately).

edit: on 1st sight, just the whole zerg race seems a little too powerful. something like broodlord-swarm guardian-scourge with hydras (i guess hydra is 1 supply) as support seems unstoppable for terran at least.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1735 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-20 20:55:51
January 20 2012 18:54 GMT
#6
On January 21 2012 03:42 Itisis wrote:
Barracks, Factories, and Starports can be salvaged..?


A way for Terran to become more flexible.

Zerg can switch back and forth between units really easy with their hatcherys.

Protoss as well, because they have their gateways and Gateway units is the core in their army.

If Terran goes bio with lots of barracks, they have to stick to it. With salvage they have the option of switching into factories, starport, or if they have few bases, scrap a couple of buildings to get money for extra units instead.. etc.

Creator of Starbow
ionONE
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany605 Posts
January 20 2012 20:18 GMT
#7
hm, sounds good
but mule still in? and planetary?

msg me
Havoc.466
JANGBI never forget
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1735 Posts
January 20 2012 21:06 GMT
#8
This is a stupid question but how do I upload the map in this thread?

Can´t find it T_T
Creator of Starbow
AdrianHealey
Profile Joined January 2011
Belgium480 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-20 21:44:13
January 20 2012 21:43 GMT
#9
I love it.

Would you mind me giving some recommendations/suggestions?
I love.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1735 Posts
January 20 2012 23:08 GMT
#10
On January 21 2012 06:43 AdrianHealey wrote:
I love it.

Would you mind me giving some recommendations/suggestions?


Go ahead!
Creator of Starbow
Rkynick
Profile Joined December 2011
85 Posts
January 20 2012 23:14 GMT
#11
Would you mind shedding some light on how you made the units dumber and less clumped up?

Kinda interested in that.
Anyways I'll have to try this out.
Ragoo
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany2773 Posts
January 20 2012 23:31 GMT
#12
Haha nice : ) I'd love it if Blizzard would go in the same direction as you... admitting that BW had some units that are lacking in SC2.
Member of TPW mapmaking team/// twitter.com/Ragoo_ /// "goody represents border between explainable reason and supernatural" Cloud
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1735 Posts
January 20 2012 23:38 GMT
#13
On January 21 2012 08:14 Rkynick wrote:
Would you mind shedding some light on how you made the units dumber and less clumped up?

Kinda interested in that.
Anyways I'll have to try this out.


It is kinda easy what I´ve done.

If you go to "advanced data" in the data editor and open up "gameplay data", there is a field called formation diameter. The value indicates how all units in a formation will behave. If the value is high units will move in their formation rather then clumping up. If the value is low (as in SC2) units will tend to clump up in a big blob.

I´ve dumbed down the units by making them not auto attack targets that outranges them. If a marine shoots at a zergling the zergling wont auto attack the marine until ordered to attack it. However, if the marine comes really close to the zergling, then it will interact. Units will not chase other units far by themsleves either, until told so. All this can be done in gameplay data
Creator of Starbow
ionONE
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany605 Posts
January 20 2012 23:49 GMT
#14
Can you change autorepair, it was already to easy in the campagne ...
JANGBI never forget
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1735 Posts
January 20 2012 23:50 GMT
#15
On January 21 2012 08:49 ONEofUS wrote:
Can you change autorepair, it was already to easy in the campagne ...




I´ve looked in the editor on the ability but I can´t find how to disable it T_T
Creator of Starbow
fenix404
Profile Joined May 2011
United States305 Posts
January 20 2012 23:56 GMT
#16
this is the best one of these i have seen. simple, but not too simple.

i can see mass HT being the thing to do. FF and storm? gonna be an essential unit to go to.

love the blink dragoon, feedbck DT (where did that feedback come from?), and the carrier change seems like a no-brainer that blizz should have already implemented. they do that already, but if you are moving, the interceptors will not switch targets properly, and return to the carrier. i guess that's why there's the graviton catapult upgrade to being with.
"think for yourself, question authority"
EternaLLegacy
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States410 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-21 00:06:49
January 21 2012 00:06 GMT
#17
This is actually quite awesome, and I'd love to sit down and work with you more on this. PM me.

edit:

I saw this is EU. Can someone publish on NA?
Statists gonna State.
DYEAlabaster
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada1009 Posts
January 21 2012 01:06 GMT
#18
I love it! except that if the collosus is now mentally retarded and can't walk up/down cliffs, you should give it some more health. It's way too fragile to be so stupid (think of the ultra and how much health it has and is still consisdered terrible because of its mentality).

Also what does BoW stand for? Brood of Wings? Bacon Onion Wrap?
Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4983 Posts
January 21 2012 01:30 GMT
#19
On January 21 2012 10:06 DYEAlabaster wrote:
I love it! except that if the collosus is now mentally retarded and can't walk up/down cliffs, you should give it some more health. It's way too fragile to be so stupid (think of the ultra and how much health it has and is still consisdered terrible because of its mentality).

Also what does BoW stand for? Brood of Wings? Bacon Onion Wrap?

Brings of Warberty?
Broods of Wiberty?
EU High Masters Protoss ~ Grubby: "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse, but that I feel confident in, than play the better strategy, not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" ~ Sad Zealot Fan </3
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1735 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-21 11:38:24
January 21 2012 01:39 GMT
#20
On January 21 2012 10:06 DYEAlabaster wrote:
I love it! except that if the collosus is now mentally retarded and can't walk up/down cliffs, you should give it some more health. It's way too fragile to be so stupid (think of the ultra and how much health it has and is still consisdered terrible because of its mentality).

Also what does BoW stand for? Brood of Wings? Bacon Onion Wrap?


The colossus can still walk up and down cliff and is considered both ground and air. It can´t just walk over units. But I would actually like the reaver instead, but it was to hard to add to the map.

I´m glad you ask

It means:

Brood or War
Britania or Wales?
Back of, Walrus!
Billys own walnuts


I do not have a name for my map at all. All sueggestions are welcome ^^
Creator of Starbow
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