EPTAny ideas?
[A] Starbow - Page 4
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Any ideas? | ||
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Groog
127 Posts
On January 25 2012 23:37 Kabel wrote: How can MULE and Inject with Queens become more fun and interesting in the game? Any ideas? I'm thinking something like this Inject; Queens instead inject tech buildings, this spawns 8 larvae in the same time as 4 would spawn normally. However, it costs 50 energy and only units from that tech building can be created with that larvae. Makes zerg even more reactionary, maybe? Mule: Nerf mineral-gathering skills, and make it so repair from mule is free (and better?). Would encourage dropping mules in battle to repair tanks/thors/etc. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Inject; Queens instead inject tech buildings, this spawns 8 larvae in the same time as 4 would spawn normally. However, it costs 50 energy and only units from that tech building can be created with that larvae. Makes zerg even more reactionary, maybe? Terrible, terrible idea. Makes larvae even less valuable as resource. 8 larva every 50 second would much easier to keep up then 4 every 25 energy, lowering skill required to macro. And "more reactionary"? You see opponent moving out, and you already injected something not usefull. Crap... And multiple queens? Inject every building and build w/e you want! Go go mass larvae! This idea is even worse then normal larvae inject imho. And you want to reward expanding right? So dont make counter mechanic lowering value of larvae (and so value of hatch), but something supporting that. I think my ideas you posted on previous page are not bad (maybe not perfect), and with some tweaks may be good. Also maybe consider more BW-like mining. With progressing dimishing returns after some values (lets say something like:400-480 minerals/min with 8 workers and 800 with full saturation/about 20, dunno) And change to mule? Make it cost 25 energy, work half as long, lower mineral-gathering skills (like Groog said), add cooldown (so forgeting is not forgiving). Also maybe that combat repair is also good idea. | ||
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Tppz!
Germany1449 Posts
That suprise on the Cattlebruiser is a joke right? Making Fun of an Unit that doesnt have a use in the game nomatter what you change. EMP Radius on Science Vessel seems a bit bad since noone will pay 100/200 to build it with that radius. Ghosts can at least snipe Zealots or HTs but PDD is nearly useless in lategame so it comes down to the EMP. Since the Radius is tat one prepatch noone will invest that much gas for it. It aint worth it. Does it remove all energy? Then it would make a bit more sense. Another thing: With no Hellions and Firebats and only Spider Miens and Tanks you are too vulnerable to Masszerglings as Terran. There is nothing to deal with it. BTW: I like the idea to kill colossi with scourge. But it sounds a bit imbalanced. I recommend to remove the colossus even though it wont happen in real SC2 | ||
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FreeTossCZComentary
Czech Republic143 Posts
On January 26 2012 03:43 Tppz! wrote: I think you did something wrong: you made Tanks 4 supply. BW had 2 and SC2 had 3 supply. While Tanks are still not worth it in TvP (even with your mod - or should i say especially?) you should make it at least 3 supply again. That suprise on the Cattlebruiser is a joke right? Making Fun of an Unit that doesnt have a use in the game nomatter what you change. EMP Radius on Science Vessel seems a bit bad since noone will pay 100/200 to build it with that radius. Ghosts can at least snipe Zealots or HTs but PDD is nearly useless in lategame so it comes down to the EMP. Since the Radius is tat one prepatch noone will invest that much gas for it. It aint worth it. Does it remove all energy? Then it would make a bit more sense. Another thing: With no Hellions and Firebats and only Spider Miens and Tanks you are too vulnerable to Masszerglings as Terran. There is nothing to deal with it. BTW: I like the idea to kill colossi with scourge. But it sounds a bit imbalanced. I recommend to remove the colossus even though it wont happen in real SC2 All his casters have 100 energy max. So yes, it does remove all energy. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
But I still need a more interesting macro mechanic for Zerg then inject. Any ideas!? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
On January 26 2012 03:43 Tppz! wrote: Another thing: With no Hellions and Firebats and only Spider Miens and Tanks you are too vulnerable to Masszerglings as Terran. There is nothing to deal with it. As of right now, marines are a bit stronger and built little quicker to really be the backbone of a terran army. (It is also right now the only infantery unit in the game.) Zerglings can´t be massed in the same amount so easily. We will however add a way to deal with mass zerglings if they become an unbalanced thing. But adding a unit that just by existing counters zerglings is not the right way to go. I always thought firebats were really uninteresting because you did not need to do anything with them. Just keep them in front (which was not so hard.) In that case I prefer hellions because hellions require the terran to use them well to counter zerglings, and the zerglings can destroy the hellions if Zerg plays it correctly. I think that is a problem in SC2 aswell in some aspects. If the Protoss goes Colossus, you just have to build viking or corruptors and they are the perfect counter to it. Just attack - move together with your army and the colossus will die. Or if the terran has siege tanks, add immortals and they will counter that. That just feels... a bit uninteresting. Units shall be able to counter each other, but not by only existing. A unit offers a possibility to counter another unit, if you play it correctly. I try to think in that way atleast ^^ | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
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Tppz!
Germany1449 Posts
 Only 2 (ok 3) infantery units are a bit boring. Sure Mech should be the lategame option but Marines and Medics arent enough for a more Biobased play. I dont like the Marauder but you need a unit like the firebat/marauder after all | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
On January 27 2012 00:11 Tppz! wrote: Stil no word about 4 supply tanks? Im disappointed It has not 4 supply. It has 2 or 3 in the current version. | ||
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FlyingToilet
United States840 Posts
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
On January 31 2012 01:35 Danko__ wrote: Kabel, still working on it? Hope you are not giving up so easly ^^. I haven´t had time to work on it for some days because of school and work. The thing is that I made this map only a map but didn´t know that it could not be converted into a Mod. So I must start from scratch again T_T | ||
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DigitalDevil
219 Posts
Terran: 1. Stack SCVs while building to decrease production time. Have there be a diminishing returns effect. This might perhaps complement the idea of terran tech switching in mid/late game using the tech structure salvage. e.g. 1 worker = 100% 2 workers = 120% 3 workers = 135% 4 workers = 145% 5 workers = 150%. 2. Have SCV repair give diminishing returns as well so you don't just mindlessly clump and hug a unit with them. 3. Have flying buildings drain fuel...They start losing heath if you can't pay. Protoss 1. Have every single unit be warpable but warping units is more expensive. Keeps the decision making between gateway and warpgate. Saturating new expansions, especially islands, is now easier. e.g. Warp Probe = +5% cost Warp Gateway = +10% Warp Robo = +15% Warp Stargate = +20% 2. Perhaps even have two types of warpgates available for the player to switch back and force as he so chooses: one where warping is more expensive and one where warping takes longer like you described. Gateway would still be either cheaper or faster for production of course especially when you're turtling. The "time" warpgate can look something like this: Warp Probe = +10% time Warp Gateway = +20% Warp Robo = +30% Warp Stargate = +40% Zerg 1. Increase larva spawn rate and the autospawn limit for lair and hive. Queen inject was never really a fun macro ability or required much decision making anyway. This change gives some value to upgrading to lair and hive. e.g. Hatchery - spawns larva every 15sec up to 3 Lair - spawns larva every 12sec up to 5 Hive - spawns larva evert 7sec up to 9 2. Have zerglings be able to jump down cliffs. Down only, not up. Opens up new harassment capabilities and zoning of cliff areas. 3. Give hatchery/lair/hive ability to issue a drop pod (campaign style) on the next larva spawn wherever you have vision. The pod drop places the larva that would have spawned at the location of the drop with a tiny bit of creep. Allows zerg to take islands and saturate more easily. Opens up new reinforcement potential. Another way to hide tech. Another way to spread creep? 4. Allow tech structures to burrow. Another way to hide/protect tech. Encourages other races to get detection... | ||
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Terrifyer
United States338 Posts
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Tppz!
Germany1449 Posts
On February 01 2012 04:34 DigitalDevil wrote: Just throwing some ideas out there. Terran: 1. Stack SCVs while building to decrease production time. Have there be a diminishing returns effect. This might perhaps complement the idea of terran tech switching in mid/late game using the tech structure salvage. e.g. 1 worker = 100% 2 workers = 120% 3 workers = 135% 4 workers = 145% 5 workers = 150%. This will have 1 effct: more proxy/cheese/allin. No thanks! 2. Have SCV repair give diminishing returns as well so you don't just mindlessly clump and hug a unit with them. I dont understand this. So if you repair you want to suffer the terrans income by X%? I dont even... 3. Have flying buildings drain fuel...They start losing heath if you can't pay. Are you trolling us? Protoss 1. Have every single unit be warpable but warping units is more expensive. Keeps the decision making between gateway and warpgate. Saturating new expansions, especially islands, is now easier. e.g. Warp Probe = +5% cost Warp Gateway = +10% Warp Robo = +15% Warp Stargate = +20% Warp in Probes? for 53 minerals? You cant be serious Whats the matter with warping in robo and stargate units? Everybody knows that warp in completely destroyed the balance of Protoss and the PvP Matchup. And why would you want to be able to warpin a pxhoenix? Isnt the seed and the airmovement enough? 2. Perhaps even have two types of warpgates available for the player to switch back and force as he so chooses: one where warping is more expensive and one where warping takes longer like you described. Gateway would still be either cheaper or faster for production of course especially when you're turtling. The "time" warpgate can look something like this: Warp Probe = +10% time Warp Gateway = +20% Warp Robo = +30% Warp Stargate = +40% Why would you want to do this? Zerg 1. Increase larva spawn rate and the autospawn limit for lair and hive. Queen inject was never really a fun macro ability or required much decision making anyway. This change gives some value to upgrading to lair and hive. e.g. Hatchery - spawns larva every 15sec up to 3 Lair - spawns larva every 12sec up to 5 Hive - spawns larva evert 7sec up to 9 Why...? Its not fun? Its not meant to be fun - its challenging. If you want fun you mshould play Broodwar and build workers and send them to mine. 2. Have zerglings be able to jump down cliffs. Down only, not up. Opens up new harassment capabilities and zoning of cliff areas. Come on that is for sure a very clever thing + Show Spoiler + (NO ITS NOT) 3. Give hatchery/lair/hive ability to issue a drop pod (campaign style) on the next larva spawn wherever you have vision. The pod drop places the larva that would have spawned at the location of the drop with a tiny bit of creep. Allows zerg to take islands and saturate more easily. Opens up new reinforcement potential. Another way to hide tech. Another way to spread creep? Man Im really not sure which race you play. You destroyed Terran, made Protoss completly stupid and buffed zeg into oblivion. BTW: Zerg has the fastest units - has nydus AND free dropships. why would you even want another larvae catapult that shoots larvae to anyplace on the map. Ever thought about "dropping" all Larvae at the naturalof the toss so he cant build a wallin AND yuo have zerglings in his base? oh wait i think that was what you were thinking while writing this. 4. Allow tech structures to burrow. Another way to hide/protect tech. Encourages other races to get detection... Yea banelingmines, burrowed roaches who kill your whole army doesnt force the enemy getting detection but burrowing techstructures is a very important thing so the zerg doesnt need to deal with drops/harassment. he just burrows his buildings,units. This post of you is so wrongin many ways. I just hope your were trolling the extreme way. If not you better stop playing starcraft and start solitair | ||
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DigitalDevil
219 Posts
On February 01 2012 06:33 Tppz! wrote: This will have 1 effct: more proxy/cheese/allin. No thanks! Yes, because you have already done all the math calculating all the money lost putting multiple workers on a building with an exponential decay in building time gained? I dont understand this. So if you repair you want to suffer the terrans income by X%? I dont even... Maybe I wasn't being clear on this. The diminishing returns refers to the repair rate, not the money spent repairing...At any rate, would you say it's ok for a terran player to pull all scvs and hug a planetary fortress making it virtually invincible unless the opposing player makes a large commitment to engage? Seems quite abusive imo. Not really. Ever proxied and flew your buildings back with barely any loss? Mass lift off in a base race? This is just mending blizz's flawed design to begin with. Protoss Warp in Probes? for 53 minerals? You cant be serious Whats the matter with warping in robo and stargate units? Everybody knows that warp in completely destroyed the balance of Protoss and the PvP Matchup. And why would you want to be able to warpin a pxhoenix? Isnt the seed and the airmovement enough? This makes the warp in design more consistent across the race first of all. And everybody knows that warp in it its CURRENT form provides no drawback. I'm sure you took into consideration the EXTRA expenses I'm proposing to be able to warp in of course? And no, just because the pheonix can already move fast is no reason to disregard the concept of warping it in at a location for extra expenses. The concept remains clear. You pay more to get your unit to a certain area more quickly. As fast as the phoenix is, can you get it from point A to point B faster than warping? In most cases, no. Are there situations where the pheonix needs to be somewhere immediately and yet you have to fly it across the map? Yes. Are there situations where the player can spend a little more money to warp in a pheonix somewhere more quickly? Yes. So no, the speed and the air movement isn't necessarily "enough". What defines "enough"? You shouldn't adopt such a limited approach when it comes to game design. Read above. Even you claimed warpgate is powerful so why not give it a drawback as opposed to gateways? Zerg Why...? Its not fun? Its not meant to be fun - its challenging. If you want fun you mshould play Broodwar and build workers and send them to mine. Lol, I'm not against challenge. I just don't really like abilities that provide little decision making. It's easy to make something challenging. It's hard to make something challenging AND fun. I agree with a lot of things blizz did but there are plenty of places where I think they went wrong. Spawn larvae doesn't exactly show much creativity or depth of design from blizz's end I'm afraid. The decision between mule dropping and scanning is also a hack and rarely a choice. Chronoboost is the most well thought out macro ability given its simplicity and depth. Before you lash out at me thinking I'm hating on terran design or something, I would just like to say that I find a lot of terran mechanics to be well thought out already. The interchangeable tech lab/reactor attachments was a stroke of design brilliance. Come on that is for sure a very clever thing + Show Spoiler + (NO ITS NOT) Because it gives the zergling more maneuverability and purpose? Not to mention giving zerg a proper cliff unit (what other unit could you add it to?). You seem to be a huge fan of blizz design and anything not designed by them looks ridiculous to you. You think fungal growth makes sense too in term of aesthetics? Certaining a zergling jumping down a cliff is nowhere as ridiculous as the examples you mentioned. It's just one tiny little change that adds immense depth to the zergling. It's similar to how a simple ability like blink adds immense depth to a stalker. Small changes that add massive depth are the marks of a brilliant designer imo. Anyone can create an ability such as an AOE that stuns the enemy unit for 4 seconds, damages them, catches invis units, prevents unloading of dropships, yada yada. It's pretty damn obvious where the limits of that kind of ability lie and the ability on the whole feels hacked together. Now take blink and see how simple that ability is to describe and yet there are a ton of applications. Man Im really not sure which race you play. You destroyed Terran, made Protoss completly stupid and buffed zeg into oblivion. BTW: Zerg has the fastest units - has nydus AND free dropships. why would you even want another larvae catapult that shoots larvae to anyplace on the map. Ever thought about "dropping" all Larvae at the naturalof the toss so he cant build a wallin AND yuo have zerglings in his base? oh wait i think that was what you were thinking while writing this. FYI, I'm toss. I just have the opinion that terran is the most well designed race by far in sc2, followed by toss, then zerg. (just curious, you're not a terran are you?) Hence zerg got more changes. Keep in mind that good design and balance are not mutual. I am not complaining about anything balance wise per say. You realize that both nydus and overlord drop require their own unique investments and are executed in wildly different ways? Terran can lift off and fly a CC over. Oh wait, terran can also just drop an SCV over there with a medivac. Ahhh, one has got to go! Oh wait, because it was already implemented by blizz, it's ok? And regarding the larvae preventing a wallin, there are plenty of ways to fix such a specific problem. Specifics can ALWAYS be tweaked. For example, decrease the armor value of larvae spawned this way so that they are more easily killed. The concept has not been invalidated. Yea banelingmines, burrowed roaches who kill your whole army doesnt force the enemy getting detection but burrowing techstructures is a very important thing so the zerg doesnt need to deal with drops/harassment. he just burrows his buildings,units. This post of you is so wrongin many ways. I just hope your were trolling the extreme way. If not you better stop playing starcraft and start solitair Ok...I don't see the connection with solitaire. I more or less was speaking tonque in cheek about encouraging other races to get detection but since you want to debate it. Burrowed banelings are mainly a threat to mass marines. And even then, a lot of good terrans scan their way across the map, ignoring the raven entirely. Burrowed roaches are hardly an immediate threat. Compare that to an unprepared encounter against banshees/dts. And the ability to burrow tech structures mean a zerg doesn't have to deal with drops/harassment? I had neglected to say that you can not upgrade while the building is burrowed (or pause in the middle of an upgrade). But anyway, I beg to differ. If a zerg does indeed burrow say a spire the moment a drop comes, it's merely a delay tactic. A smart terran would have saved a scan anticipating this scenario or would have to wait to snipe the spire. It seems like in most cases, terran and toss have a much easier time fending off drops. Zerg has fewer buildings first of all and has to spread out the most on any given map. Toss has warp in which is quite helpful, especially when drops are spotted early enough. Wrecking a terran base is much harder to do than that of a zerg due to the sheer amount of buildings and defensive capabilties of terran units in general. Why can terrans build a planetary and mass scv hug it? Is this a symptom of different races being different or flawed design being justified? | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
DigitalDevil 1. Repair/BuildTime/Buildings requiring fuel I dont think now it is important. MOD (or more like MAP, becose it was started as map not mod, and gonna take some time to convert it) still lacks lots of things. Very imporant things, making different races playble. I will keep these suggestions in mind but lets focus on other things. 2. Warpin every toss unit. We both know how warpgate (+sentry) screwed gate units strenght (comparing to bw ofcourse). And im pretty sure that warpin of gate + lategame units would screw late game totally. That would be even better then zerg remax, and thats zerg race trait to rebuild, regrow, remax in matter of seconds, not toss. I think maybe better idea would be something like better, more viable mass-recall-like warpin mechanic for toss. Idea that just came to my mind, not well thought yet and i would like to hear your opinions. For now gateway units are stronger (no direct counter to zealot like roach, no maruder, dragoon with better stats then stalker, no sentry) and warpgate is moved to laaaate game (but thats not final solution). 3. Larvae inject. I agree with that thats bad macro mechanic. I loved that before queens (yeah, bw times) zerg could mass expand as he anyway needed more hatches (so you could choose to make macro hatch or unsaturated yet bas, but still working production facility). I would love to replace it somehow, but i need something to replace it. Increased larvae spawn for lair/hive is not even macro mechanic. I need something what will be as difficult as larvae inject to master, but wont fully satisfy need for larvae, and remove need for more hatches, more expos. 4. Zerglings jumpings down the cliffs. Thats interesting idea. But usefulness would really depend on maps. Now only map we have our mod on is metalopolis so before "modifying it" we wont even be able to test it cose meta is not good map for that. Thats not bad idea in my opinion but requires testing (and some skill in map editor which i dont have as just started learning it). 5. What Tppz said. Drops like these are not necessary for zerg. Ovies and nydus + creep and speed of zerg gives them enough of mobility. Only thing i think could be changed is overlord transport upgrade build time. 6. Burrow for structures. That changes does like nothing vs terra cose scans will anyway reveal it, and it could be really too strong vs toss with good spores placement (so he wont scout with obs, and hallu wont see it, nor warpprism). Dont think that is good idea. Tppz Thx for your opinion, but its not neccesary to be so unkind. I would love to hear what are your suggestions too. Also, we gonna need people to test. Find bugs, balance stuff, and see everything in action. So if anyone have time and would like to help with testing (unfortunetly only EU server for now ) then write it in this tread, PM me here or directly in sc2: Danko.616. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
The queen fits so well in the Zerg race in a lore way. Like a giant queen observing the drones and larvas and giving birth to more creatures.. How can the queen become interesting?! Bring me your ideas! | ||
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DigitalDevil
219 Posts
I definitely agree that the threat of a warpgate instant remax late game is quite scary especially because a huge surplus accumulates at 200/200. It's one of those race specific quirks that are really hard to balance around. With that said, I remember thinking about a mass recall harass mechanic when HOTS was revealed. The nexus would be able to recall a small radius of units for some yet to be determined amount of energy. You would be able to send small squadrons around the map without completely surrendering position. I find lots of small engagements create a more dynamic game. On the idea of the increased larvae spawn and rate for the lair/hive, yeah it's not meant to be a macro mechanic in the sense of being apm taxing. The decision to upgrade additional lairs/hives is more closely related to the decision of when and when not to drone. As for an apm macro mechanic replacement, I found your idea of splitting drones intriguing. Did you perhaps think about expanding it beyond just drones? Splitting overlords, army units? The idea of a flexible macro mechanic that scales in effectiveness from early game to late game seems interesting. | ||
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